The Southern Baptist Convention, Ergun Caner, and 1 John 5:1

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

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Here is James white And welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning.

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Here's the situation folks We have an all -new setup here. Not only last week was it challenging doing this via Skype from London?

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But now that I'm back here in sunny and beautiful Phoenix, Arizona We are trying a number of new things today.

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So we're gonna have some whoopses back We had a whoops one minute before we started we had a whoops But we're gonna have a few more whoopses just to bear with us today these things.

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Here's situation First of all tweet deck is up and running in front of me. Dr Oakley 1689 is my

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Twitter address and if you have questions or comments Inviting all the Ergon canner fans who believe that it is inappropriate wrong evil of me

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To dare to ask for honesty and integrity amongst Christian leaders now

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I know I just poisoned the well didn't I but that's what I'm doing and it's shocking to me the

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Responses that I'm getting from people who really believe that evidently as long as you say Jesus, then you can say anything else along with that and Everything is fine.

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If you would like to contact me via that means that's fine. We'll go that direction We have a new

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Way of contacting the dividing line today and a lot of you have been waiting for this and that is via Skype You can contact us at dividing dot line now

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And my understanding is that that doesn't show us as being online. We'll fix that or not

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I'm not sure all depends learning curve here But it's dividing dot line and you will be able to get through to us at that address

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Just put in dividing dot line. What will happen is if you hit the phone call button

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Your phone call will be refused initially. I suppose you could just try texting initially and say

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I would like to get on the dividing line give your name and where you're from and Then rich will get back to you on that And he will call you back when it's time to put you on the air and I've noticed that the

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Skype voice quality is significantly higher than that which we have on the phone lines and So, of course, we have the regular phone lines.

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I hope they're working. Are they working good? It's it's very even have issues. They're having to change out a chip and you know when you upgrade a computer

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Bios has changed and all sorts of stuff Hours were spent yesterday trying to get this whole thing to work so that we can have multiple means by which you can contact us and so on so forth, so 877 -753 -3341 is the toll -free phone number 877 -753 -3341

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I could use a little more of myself in the headsets. All that has changed as well That sounds a little bit better there

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That that helps a little bit, but we'll be doing a bunch of things. We already have our first Twitter question

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What time is the dividing line today? Very good, it is on right now

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Well handle the first question fairly easily pride didn't offend too many people other than the person who probably Wrote in is now going.

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Oh, why did I ask that question? That's how you'll be able to get hold of us today so that's

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That's where we get started there Few comments to get started and then I see we're gonna be having some questions about first John 5 -1 on the program today

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Nothing surprising about that. However, but we'll be taking a look at that We have been discussing it in the videos that we've been doing of late.

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So You might find that to be an interesting discussion, but you can call in today on your questions

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You can ask about the trip to London the debates with the Muslims You can ask about the open -air preaching on Friday evening.

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No, that was not a picture of me doing the open -air preaching That was a fellow by name Rob who heads up that group at Leicester Square I was one of the people that forms the group around him that that attracts other people and then

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I was to start looking for Muslims to talk to and I did for about 90 minutes Talk with a number of Muslims in that particular context very different conversations.

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It was very interesting Maybe we'll have time to talk about that We can talk about the ministry in London the fact we want to go back again next year in February We're building some momentum there more and more people are getting excited about it that's that's come up we can talk about the

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Eric and Kenner situation and the infiltration of post -modernism and humanistic thinking into the church

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That is being seen in many of the responses that are being offered or the sad circle the wagons

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Southern Baptist mentality Mentality that has been illustrated very very clearly in the responses that have been offered as well and We can discuss first John 5 1 we can discuss the issues around reformed theology.

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Isn't it funny? I have dared to point out issues of basic simple integrity openness and transparency in Regards the claims that Eric and Kenner makes about himself about his debates

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Made about his debates his bio page remains off of his website as of today I'm not sure exactly what that means, but it's been down for a number of days, but of course on that Bio page he had claimed to have done debates with religious leaders

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Not just Mormon missionaries, but religious leaders of various sundry religious groups including

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Islam And I think the last rendition had 13 nations and 40 some odd states

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The past has been 11 and interesting enough the number of states changed and went down. I'm not sure how that happens, but anyway

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Issues regarding the integrity of making those kind of claims when Your entire claim to fame is you are an apologist

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You are a former Muslim. You're an expert in these things. You're the head of the global apologetics program you're trying to bring paying customers into your school and I believe that there is a necessity for Integrity no one so far has ever accused me of claiming to have debated someone.

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I have not debated not once I Haven't heard anybody say. Oh, well you you've claimed to have debated

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Zulfikar Alishah. Well I did Because there were live people there. There's video tape recordings of The encounter well you've claimed to debate

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Shabir Ali I have four times and hope to again in the future And we can start going down the list well you claim to have debated in in Three different countries yeah,

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I have United States the United Kingdom and Australia No one's raised any any issues along those lines at all in fact the sad thing is the vast majority of people who have been

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Coming after me with fork and tongue over the past week or so Have done so very clearly without even taking the time to read what

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I have said or why I have expressed my concern about the Ernie Cantor situation That's Jordan have not read my books

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They've not viewed the debates Or they've been very selective in what they've looked at there are some who have

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But the vast majority have not All they see is you're not supposed to say anything about anyone who claims to be a

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Christian well folks I've never been that way from the time this ministry started we dealt with things like the the word faith movement many many years ago and Always The the first major groups we dealt with were who the

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Mormons Jehovah's Witnesses and Roman Catholics What do they all claim they all claim to be Christians, and so if you're going to you know

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Attack us so at least try to do so with with some understanding of where we have stood for over 25 years now

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I Have made a firm Defense of the fact that there are many who make false profession of faith in Christ now just because I disagree with someone

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Doesn't mean that I'm saying they're not a Christian I'm very clear about which groups.

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I believe are not Christian and I am very clear about The issues surrounding

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The difference between disagreeing with someone's theological formulations. I have never for example condemned

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Dave hunt to hell I've never sent Chuck Smith off to the flames of perdition

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But so many people who are attacking this ministry right now refuse to allow us to define our own grounds of differentiation definition

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Just because I have criticized someone like a Brian Broderson doesn't mean that I have sent him off and put him in the same category as a

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Daniel Peterson from BYU or Dave Armstrong of Roman Catholicism we clearly make differentiation between these various groups and Just because I disagree with someone doesn't mean

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I'm sending them off to hell And so we have labored over the years there are

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I don't know how many hundreds of thousands of bytes of information

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Sitting on our website that have been written over literally decades now

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That I think are very consistent in Laying out what we think are the very definitional issues.

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And so I think it's extremely important To address these particular subjects and to do so carefully

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Why have I done so in regards to Ergon Cantor well Here's this this just came in from Zachary B on Twitter Since our primary witness as a church is through our unity

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John 17 Do you think it might be? Do more harm than good to constantly tell the world while you disagree with people who appear to also be followers of Jesus That's a very very good question a

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Lot of people is oh see we shall be one in what what's our unity and in truth?

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Did the Apostle Paul violate that interpretation of John chapter 17 by writing Galatians By anathematizing men who claim to be

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Christians Did he feel he was somehow? violating this concept of unity

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When he had to point out that there are those who are not Christians who claim to be Why is the majority of New Testament books warning as false teachers if that is the way we are to understand

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John 17 that Unity is to be based upon allowing for this huge wide

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Contradictory definition of the Christian faith then it would seem to follow That the New Testament is an incoherent

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Document that cannot give us any guidance whatsoever because the New Testament writers did not follow that interpretation

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By the way, I will take Twitter questions that are somewhat relevant to what I'm talking about I just had a question on dispensationalism and covenantals now not not not not the topic today not even close

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You need to clarify something. All right, go ahead. Yeah, I don't want there to be any confusion There are a number of people who are coming in through Skype They're making that initial contact and I don't want them to be confused

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I think some people are just getting on the contact list to get it listed and others may be

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Intending to get in the queue And so if you want to actually get into the queue and line up to call in on Skype You actually have to attempt to call me.

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They can't text you It's a little confusing right now, I want to make sure okay that I'm not calling somebody who didn't right

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I'm getting on the air at all, you know, right So let's let's just make sure that I don't if I see that red button

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Then I'll do the don't answer thing and that that queues them up. Okay. All right Thank you, sir,

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I appreciate the fact that we are, you know Almost providing far too much access here

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Which by the way is a tremendous contrast to Eric and Kanner who I have asked to answer these questions openly, but I Haven't even getting got got an email back, but we are making ourselves available and open in that way

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Now, let me before we go to our calls. All right, like I said, we're lining them up here But I wanted to address a few things. I Want to address a few things about this issue of Criticizing a

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Christian leader I Would like to see Eric and Kanner truly repent of what he has done

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But there is a major problem People have been saying look what he did. He repented what why?

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He said he was sorry. Why can't you just let it go? Well, here's here's the problem

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What did he repent of? He spoke of some misstatements

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Where he said I have never intentionally misled. Anyways, that means he is claiming that all of this was mere misstatements

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There was never any intentionality on the part of Eric and Kanner however, when he gets to the

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Situation about sin. He says finally there is a legitimate complaint, which I must address namely Referencing a

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Muslim scholar that I have never met. That's Shabir Ali and If I had not written to Eric and Kanner from London last week

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Having myself contacted Shabir Ali to verify the facts before I did Would this have ever happened?

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He says listening to the audio. I honestly have no idea who I was referencing But it certainly could not have been the man

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I referenced Now if you go back and listen to what he said,

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I Have some serious problems here that I have asked honest questions about I Am NOT for a moment questioning

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That every one of us can make misstatements. I've done it and I could name the wrong person that I debated and I've given examples

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I've updated I've debated Abdullah Kunda and Abdullah al -Andalusi now how many of you could very quickly differentiate between those two names

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Most of you can't even when I say it both were overseas

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So would it be understandable for me to say? Well, you know Abdullah Kunda once said and Actually quote something from Abdullah al -Andalusi.

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That would be fully understandable. Here's where the difference is folks. I've debated both of them There's videotapes of both of those debates

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Eric and Kanner didn't debate anybody in Nebraska That's the difference my friends can't

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I Know that many of you can see this and some of you're going. Yeah, we know but it's the people who are contacting me going

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Oh my goodness Why can't you just let this go because the issues have not been answered

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Bring up the audio rich. I want to I want to make sure you hear what we're talking about. Here is

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Ergon Kanner Two times in 2007, this is twice. This is two different places.

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He's speaking. So this happened multiple times How many times it happened? We don't know Maybe it happened in classes.

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Maybe it happened in other places. I don't know but here's Ergon Kanner every debate

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Abdul Saliba Nadia Ahmed Shabir Ali every debate I've had with these men

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They always end at the same point. So what if Jesus did die because the Quran teaches somebody died So what if Jesus did die?

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What's that matter to me radically redefined grace with Allah simply means he does not kill you

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He allows you life and that's grace There is no such thing as grace being unmerited favor given to one who could not do for himself

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You can do for yourself in Islam One of the number one lines that Shabir Ali the Muslim apologist gave gave me at a debate which took place in Nebraska Was why does one man have to die for me?

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What does one man's death have to do with my life? Okay now may

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I say something What he's talking what he's talking about is true.

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And in fact Shabir Ali has raised those points in debates with me because I debated him on the crucifixion in Seattle and We actually debated the subject.

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So what he's saying is true. Here's my greatest concern here he says true things, but he joins them with exaggeration and falsehood and Folks that is incredibly offensive to me because this is the area

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I work in I'm the one that has to talk to these people Me and Sam Shamoon and David Wood and Nabeel Qureshi the people are actually doing these debates.

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We have to talk to these people and Those of you who are saying you should just keep your mouth shut.

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Do you not understand what it's like to be on the front lines? How can

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I walk up to Shabir Ali and shake his hand once again and look him in the eye if I will not point out that there are people who are misrepresenting the

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Christian faith and even saying true things I would rather that Ergon Kanner was some wild -eyed

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Benny Hinn type guy, but he's saying true things about Islam But then to pad his resume he exaggerates he makes things up as he goes along that's the problem my friends look

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I Know that my critics like Peter Lumpkins and and Pastor Rogers and stuff

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They don't bother to look at this stuff But those of you who know me You know that I spent is there last year 2008

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I forget exactly what it was sometime within past year and a half or so I Spent a fair amount of time Putting together an entire series of videos respond to a man by name of Yusuf Estes now

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Yusuf Estes is well known amongst Muslims in the United States and Why is he well known well, he's on the

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Dean show all the time. Why is he on the Dean show? why is he looked to as a leader because he claims to be a former

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Christian and And people who once were a part of another religious faith are automatically granted some kind of expertise in That faith when they address the subject people believe what they have to say and the

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Muslims believe what Yusuf Estes has to say the problem is you've a Yusuf Estes is grossly ignorant of Christianity grossly ignorant of Christianity I Did I believe if I'm recalling correctly, there's a there's a playlist on on my youtube site.

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I believe it was eight videos I did demonstrating That Yusuf Estes has no earthly idea what he's talking about now this is what

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I'm talking about if I'm going to point the finger at Yusuf Estes say look just because you claim to be a former

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Christian Does not make you an expert Here's where you're wrong here, here's where you're wrong there how can

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I with integrity look at myself in the mirror in the morning and refuse out of partisan loyalty

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To point out that Ergen Kanner has pulled the same stunts in Padding his resume and claiming to have done things

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He never did and folks that the people that have provided this documentation have told me there's more coming.

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This is the tip of the iceberg Some of the things that I have been told are going to be documented to me, and I've asked for documentation

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I've asked to hear it with my own ears And notice Ergen Kanner did not say that any of these had been altered

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He did suggest to someone that context has been taken out, but he never has said that these things have been altered

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This is him talking once that stuff comes out.

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I'm gonna be asking those questions as well and I simply submit to any Christian How can you claim to follow him who is the truth and close your eyes to these things?

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I do not understand it. What has been the response from the Peter Lumpkins of the world and Others to attack me personally attack my scholarship attack where I went to school

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Attack me for being a hyper Calvinist all that stuff

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That's what they've decided to do not attack what I've written they can't provide any counterexamples whatsoever

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Where there's a parallel? between anything I've ever claimed and what Ergen Kanner has done because every time

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I've claimed to debate somebody guess what I did and You can look at it and you can listen to it and whether they want to admit it or not

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I did pretty well in the debate because I prepare for my debates. That's one of the things really bothers me about this

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And that's one of the things I jumped on about Shabir Ali I spent months of my life preparing to debate

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Shabir Ali so that the people of God would be edified and some guy comes along who has never even met the man and puffs his resume

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By claiming to have debated him in Nebraska, I bet you should beers every been to a brat in Nebraska Where in the world you set up an

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Islamic debate in Nebraska for crying out loud. I mean come on And so I asked some honest questions

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You want to went when I wrote to Ergen Kanner his first response to me was I misspoke really? Okay, Ergen.

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Here's some questions Who did you debate in Nebraska that you confused with Shabir Ali and when did you debate them because you put?

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Specific words in Shabir's mouth. You don't do that by a mere misstatement. Who'd you debate?

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He's never answered But folks there's something even more embarrassing here he says he debated Abdul Salib Abdul Salib is a

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Christian Abdul Salib means servant of the cross or the crucified one.

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No Muslim would ever have that name. It's a pseudonym and So we've asked him

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When did you when did you debate Abdul Salib? Are you claiming to have converted him when he was a Muslim and now you're just using his pseudonym?

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When did the state the date take place when these are simple questions folks And if the statement is well,

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I just misspoke is true. Then there should be easy answers to simple question But you see that's the problem

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Because going back to a statement He says I honestly have no idea who I was referencing, but it certainly could not have been the man.

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I referenced for this unintentional But nevertheless horrible mistake.

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I repent for saying his name and I ask for forgiveness of all those who heard it Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait Repent for a misstatement

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You can apologize for making a simple mistake, but repentance is for something that's sinful

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He says sin is sin and if I am dumb enough to say something like that I should be man enough to deal with it and aim to never make such a grievous error again

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This applies to any time when I wrongly use names. I shall be more careful dr. Kanner Multiple times using names of men you've never met

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You see if it was a mere misstatement, there's nothing to repent of If he actually made it up, then you shouldn't be repenting of something.

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You're an unintentional mistake You repent of that which is intentional that not that which is unintentional

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Repentance is means you're going one way you turn the other way. Does that make sense?

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Does people understand where the problem is here? So what's happening is his followers now

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Who seem to be extremely enamored with him as an individual Go well, that's enough

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And I keep saying what did he repent for What about all these other issues have been raised?

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What about all these other questions well, I've been told just just to go on with my work and ignore these things You can't do that in the situation you're in Now I want to get to Lee in a second, but I want to read there is a gentleman

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I posted his email on The blog last night,

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I believe and When he first contacted me He was rather Unhappy with with me and I used his email as an example of this kind of attitude that people have and He says quote mr.

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White as a Southern Baptist, I'm very angry with you with what you are doing right now Dr. Eric and Cantor is an incredible scholar and man of God.

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Why do you incessantly attack him all the time? I Have personally benefited from dr. Cantor's ministry and believe he is an intellectual giant who is doing a great service to the

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SBC Please stop attacking fellow Christians and stick to debating Mormons and Muslims So I point out that this gentleman clearly isn't dealing with what

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I've said in my statements and what my concerns really are and It's not a matter of attacking anybody this is not an attack

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This is this is a matter of integrity folks, this is simple simple truthfulness and Evidently we're not allowed to do that in the

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SBC. I sort of learned that back in 2004 I learned the political aspects of the

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SBC back in 2004 when I dared to Accurately and in a scholarly fashion disagree with Mark Seifert a

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Southern seminary the fireworks The circling the wagons the politics.

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I had one Southern Baptist editor tell me he would never work with me again because I had attacked a fellow

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Southern Baptist professor and Then he admitted later. He had never read a single word.

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I had written on the subject. I learned a lot That there are people who are willing to take actions merely based upon well

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I've been told you did something Notice when I was contacted and told that Ergin Cantor claimed of debate

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Shabir Ali I Asked for proof and when I got the proof, what did

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I do? I contacted Shabir Ali and Only once I had the audio proof and confirmed it with Shabir Ali did

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I contact Ergin Cantor boy? It would be nice if Peter Lumpkins and his ilk Had half the integrity to do that, so this particular gentleman named

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Mark and I have gone back and forth a number of times and he demanded to call into the program today

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To respond to my personal attacks. He is very emotional he is emotionally driven and his argumentation changes from point to point and I gave him the phone number gave him the

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Skype said feel free to call in but I'm going to utilize your call as an example

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Because it's painfully obvious to me even from what you've just said in your emails You haven't even read my response to Ergin Cantor And once I point that out to him five minutes before the program

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He emailed and said that he was not going to be on the program In fact, he said I am sorry.

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I'm going to pass on coming on your show You are just setting me up to attack and ridicule me on the air I Would like you to address two things whoever one is the accusation that you have an obnoxious personality

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Does not the scriptures say that an elder must be hospitable first Timothy three? well, this is not a gentleman who's ever been to my church and so he doesn't have really any grounds to talk about my

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Obnoxious personality there are people who are postmodernists do not like non

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Postmodernists and in fact while postmodernists dislike modernists They dislike pre -modernist even more and evidently from this man's perspective if you believe that there is absolute truth and That there should be integrity in the

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Christian ministry. You have an obnoxious personality He says in this email exchange you have insulted me and attacked me personally

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I think you should follow the example of Francis Schaeffer who is very respectful and congenial with those he disagreed with in other words since Identified him as emotionally driven his arguments were irrational

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That's those are attacks he refuses to differentiate between the observation Drawn from his own words and personal attacks.

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They're all the same thing and that's a postmodern concept because in postmodernism Everything is a reason to be offended

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He said he was deeply offended by my comments. Well. What if I said well?

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I'm deeply offended by yours What does that accomplish accomplish is absolutely nothing?

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I'm not a postmodernist I guess I mean, I'm offended by his attacks, but I don't care.

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That's not the point. I'm irrelevant folks I'm just to do some incredible things the

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Lord's giving me great blessings Wonderful opportunity to speak his truth, but if I get over by run over by a truck tomorrow.

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It doesn't matter the kingdom will go on It's only people who are really stuck on themselves that are get easily offended

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I'm just not that easily offended evidently mark is He says I've firsthand experienced your lack of social grace and then on at least two occasions after your debates

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I've observed you up close and personal and I've seen firsthand that you have a lack of patience for those who may disagree with you

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Mark how about some examples? Which debates as I think it was at the one

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Biola and give me examples because there are lots of people stand around after Biola Listening to me to talk to people and if you think that telling someone that they're wrong about something is impatience well, okay

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But I think your problem mark is with Paul and the Apostles more than it is with me

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Postmodernists find pre -modernists to be offensive Has nothing to do with whether you're being kind to someone in fact mark

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I would say that the kindest thing you can say and is this amazing this guy is defending Ergen Kanner Ergen Kanner Who has at one point in video said he was born in Istanbul Which he was not and then he called himself a name, which is worse than the n -word

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And he's defending Ergen Kanner. I wonder if he wrote to Ergen Kanner and called him to account for that. I wonder if There is consistency.

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I wonder how you became an elder of that small reform Baptist Church out there in Phoenix Since I almost everyone that I know who has met you in person have went away with a distinct impression that you are unloving

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Uninterested and detached from the people who ask you questions or apologetics events Now who's who's who's engaging an ad hominem here if I identify his postmodernism

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I'm attacking him, but oh, I'm sure that in Mark's mind. He's not attacking me Now people who've never met me they may be going yeah, that's what

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I've heard, too But the people who've actually had me at their churches and their events are probably going

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Wow Where's where's this guy coming from? Then he says secondly and more importantly while we're on the subject of padding one's resume

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Please address your alleged PhDs from Columbia Evangelical Seminary Is that an accredited seminary or is it like LBU or Robert Moore and others have cut corners and received academic credentials that they in Fact do not deserve.

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Are you in fact a PhD scholar from an accredited seminary University? Or did you get your so -called PhD from a degree mill?

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Please address your obnoxious personality in your academic credentials, okay? I think I know why

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Mark didn't call in today. What do you think? I think most people can see that the term obnoxious personality can go both directions

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But notice the personal attack here first of all, I don't claim a PhD. It's a PhD Since 1998 our website has had a full discussion of the accreditation situation with CES I have always said that I have to defend the validity of my scholarship by what

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I do I Defended this in my statement recently, which he clearly did not bother to even read remember.

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Here's a man Commenting and he hasn't even bothered to read what I've written So you remember

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I've mentioned back in 2004 this editor Who told me he'd never work with me again.

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And when I asked him, please point please testify show me where I did something wrong The response was why

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I didn't read it This amazes me because I can very honestly say it offends me because folks

34:19

I do my homework Before I say someone has said something I invest my time in In trying to be accurate for the glory of God, why don't other people like Mark do that?

34:34

I wonder I have been wide open with the path that I took to do my doctoral studies and if you can take what

34:44

I've produced in apologetics my debates with Bart Ehrman and John Dominic Crossan and Marcus Borg and John Shelby Spong and Shabir Ali and the wide variety of people

34:53

I have engaged the books that I have produced on a scholarly level and Since I claim a

35:00

THD in apologetics if you can look at that and say no No, that's that's well below the standard for a THD in apologetics and fine.

35:06

Make your case No one's ever even tried and everybody who calls

35:11

CES a degree mill I challenge you I dare you I demand Go buy a degree

35:19

It ain't gonna happen. In fact, the vast majority of you would not pass the first class Because the first class taught by Rick Walston is about how to write

35:31

And it's one of the toughest classes I've had many people who've tried couldn't get past it

35:37

That's why no one since 1998 when I graduated has ever Come up and said, oh look,

35:43

I just got a degree from there and I just bought it. You can't it's not possible It takes years and it takes work and folks

35:49

I will put the work of one of my current students at CES in his papers Up against anyone in any accredited seminary anywhere without even batting an eye

36:04

Thankfully a lot of people are starting to discover That it's not what you pay It's what you do that determines your scholarship

36:13

So thank you mark for your kind and gracious emails Talking about how

36:19

I am so obnoxious It's a sad thing mark, but as I said to you you have spent so deeply influenced by post -modernism

36:29

That you don't even realize it. All right much more that could be said Let's I don't know how this is coming through Can since you said who do we need to go to first?

36:42

You need to tell me I have no way of knowing But you said someone was unhappy.

36:48

So let's get the unhappy people out of the way first All right, Lee in Fort Worth, how you doing sir, how you doing good?

36:55

Well, I go to a Southern Baptist seminary I'm a member of Southern Baptist Church but I'm also a

37:00

Calvinist and I'm just looking in on your your situation and following your ministry and Do you think that by attacking?

37:09

Dr. Kaner? I'm you're making some put some pretty good accusations here then in a century you're attacking the

37:16

Integrity of the Southern Baptist Convention because they've elevated him to be the president of one of their leading seminaries

37:22

Liberty University comes and he speaks at Southwestern southeastern different seminaries So in a century and also he speaks at the convention, you know at the

37:31

Southern Baptist Convention pretty much every year him his brother So basically when you when you attack Dr.

37:36

Kaner you're pretty much undermining the credibility of the Southern Baptist Convention for up because obviously

37:41

Al Mohler and Paige Patterson and Different Southern Baptist scholars don't have these enormous problems that you do

37:49

So in a sense, you're basically saying that they're elevating a guy that's discredited himself

37:55

He's basically lying and that either the Southern Baptist Convention is turning their backs on them or not doing their homework

38:01

So there's an issue here because this is one of the leading You know apologists in the Southern Baptist Convention that speaks at all their you know, major conferences speaks at a different seminaries

38:11

Yeah, you're saying that this guy's basically a liar Lee what makes someone a person that defends the faith

38:17

Okay, and with whom has Eric and Kanner engaged in that activity in a public venue

38:23

Is that I mean according to your standard of you know, former formal academic debates, you know I'm not gonna say that he has obviously he's you know,

38:31

I'm not okay Lee Can I can I explain to can I ask you to explain me in his bio page, which is now down?

38:37

He claims to have engaged the leaders of multiple world religions in debates in 13 countries and about 40 states the natural meaning of language

38:50

Would lead you to conclude that you could actually ask to listen to these encounters.

38:56

Isn't that the case? well, according to what he said, I read his you know, his

39:02

Apology or whatever on his website that basically there's two different views of what a

39:08

Debate is like if I am at a coffee shop and I mean a Muslim and I interact with that person

39:14

We have a debate in his mind. That's a debate you I mean, I I agree I think what you do is better.

39:20

I've been to a few your debates and But Lee if you are the head of the global apologetics

39:28

Program at a major seminary and you claim to have engaged religious leaders but cannot name a single one and you use the term debate and Then when challenged on it and then in fact you make up names you say you've debated

39:45

Shabir Ali you've debated Abdul Salim who's a Christian Do you believe that as Christians?

39:53

We should simply close our eyes because well Like you said the Southern Baptist Convention has elevated this guy and he's allowed to speak all over the place.

40:02

So shouldn't we just close our eyes these things and and who cares if the Muslims point out that that he

40:09

Doesn't know the difference between the shahada and and the beginning of surat al -fatiha. What does that matter?

40:16

Isn't it more important that the Southern Baptist Convention have credibility? Lead you see the problem here.

40:22

I have to meet these people. I have to debate these people I shake their hands and look them in the eye and I tell them that Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life

40:33

Does that not put me under some kind of obligation to be truthful about what

40:41

I say and How I engage them But dr what

40:46

I really Respect what what you do with Jay Smith and and Josh lingo does you guys are like, you know on the front lines

40:54

You're really doing the work. I'm not saying that. Dr. Kainer has done these things, but I guess what I'm asking you is I mean,

41:00

I really first of all, I just really respect what you're doing in London I mean you're putting yourself on the front line, you know

41:05

You have people praying for you that you don't know of but I appreciate that Lee I really do and I want to understand

41:11

Where you're coming from because I can hear your heart I do not want to unnecessarily cause division in the body but the same time there has to be some level of accountability and if the folks at Liberty and Lee I can tell you this

41:27

I can't I can't tell you who because they would be gone a second But these issues are not unknown

41:34

To the leadership of Liberty University. Well, let me just make this this argument, okay?

41:41

You're not a Southern Baptist, but you're an outsider looking in Okay, and I'm not saying you don't know the culture, but I would say that there is a culture to the

41:49

Southern Baptist Convention Yeah, there are churches are interconnected Alleged there's 16 million

41:55

I'm not sure that's accurate. I like I like you use the term Legislative, but I guess what

42:02

I'm saying to you is this all these seminaries Southwestern Baptist Seminary Southeastern, you know

42:08

Midwestern Golden Gate They're all connected and they serve the Southern Baptist Convention When you have a gentleman like Caner going to speaking at these different schools and these different conferences conventions

42:20

They're speaking in a name of the Southern Baptist Convention with the blessing of the

42:25

Southern Baptist Convention by attacking. Dr Kim was to say what by making these statements in a sense.

42:31

You're saying that That Al Mohler or any of these Southern Baptist leaders are basically turning a blind eye

42:38

No, no Lee I don't I don't think Al Mohler has has has the time or the inclination to be aware of the issues in relationship to To Eric and Caner.

42:49

I don't believe that and I don't believe that it is appropriate And remember I was raised as a

42:55

Southern Baptist. I was licensed as a Southern Baptist minister I graduated from the Southern Baptist School Grand Canyon College was a

43:01

Southern Baptist School when I graduated from there and I have taught for Golden Gate since 1995 just finished teaching a class on Islam and atheism in Mill Valley at the main campus in January I taught that class three days after my mom died

43:14

So I do know the culture I do have connections there and I believe that Southern Baptists should be the first ones to be concerned about this and would be the first ones to say

43:25

That man has not been elected my leader that man has not been elected to speak for me and in fact if I'm not incorrect as I listened to the

43:35

Southern Baptist podcast recently SBC Today podcast just last week

43:40

Eric and Caner himself said I don't even speak for my wife. We're Baptists So he disavowed the exact same thing that you are now saying he said no, no, no, no

43:52

No, don't don't you dare say that I speak for the convention because I don't

43:57

So I don't think he would say that but I agree with you that it does raise an issue

44:04

About the personality culture in the Southern Baptist Convention and that is especially when it comes to a star convert someone who can claim to be a convert from X is

44:19

Given a pass and so if what you're saying is you are raising a challenge and you're challenging

44:26

Southern Baptists to step up to the plate and to Hold men accountable. Yeah, I am and I don't believe it's an attack

44:32

Upon someone to simply point out that the statements that they're making in the realm in which

44:38

I have been laboring And I've only been laboring this this field for a little over four years. I'm the newcomer but as the newcomer

44:46

I Already have significantly more experience Documentable experience than Eric and Caner has oh, there's no question.

44:56

I'm not disagreeing with that If I was a multimillionaire, I would have you guys debate somehow some way

45:03

It's kind of like Manny Pacquiao in Floyd Mayweather jr. Eventually those two guys are gonna have to fight

45:09

And I think you know, there's a lot of people out there That would love to see you guys debate.

45:15

I think a couple years ago You know, you guys should have debate. I'm not sure how that all fell apart

45:20

Well, all the documentation is on only one side's website and that's ours

45:25

We have the signed documents When people will take a signed document and throw it under the bus ten days before the debate you cannot trust

45:35

They're gonna do anything that they say. All right, that that one isn't even really Arguable anybody who actually takes the time to read the documentation only one sides provided it and it's my side

45:45

We were open above board from the start even when we started the news.

45:50

Dr. Caner said let's keep this private and I said no Not gonna happen these comments have been made publicly this is not going to be done privately for that very reason

46:00

I but but see debating Eric and Caner. Yes greatly enjoyable on other issues.

46:06

That's not what this is about This is about the integrity of the entire apologetic effort to respond to Islam Are you basically

46:15

I mean are you saying? That ultimately dr. Caner is a liar. That's pretty much what you're saying. I am saying that dr.

46:22

Caner has Miss not just misspoken. He has made things up as he went along and Until he provides a meaningful account

46:35

For the issues that have been raised and there are more issues that are going to be raised in the future because he's a very public

46:41

Person he's gone on television saying these things He has now admitted that at least twice in 2007

46:50

He misspoke about debating Shabir Ali Lee do I have meaningful grounds for asking him

46:57

How do you mean you misspoke? You said you debated someone in Nebraska and they gave argument

47:02

X Who was it that you debate in Nebraska who said this why if it's just misspeaking?

47:09

Why couldn't he respond to that question? Do you think that he that you know, he gets going he's preaching.

47:14

Yeah, he just makes like Misstatements or I mean are these the actual and intentional

47:21

Misrepresentations, I think he I think he gets into the moment and this is what I I guess you didn't read my letter to him

47:26

Because I said this in my letter to him. I said arrogant I think what happens is that you get into the moment.

47:34

You've got the audience listening to you and You feel the need to add gravitas to what you're saying and So instead of just simply saying

47:44

Muslims believe X He puts that argument into the mouth of some

47:50

Arabic sounding person that he claims to have debated and that makes it more exciting But he's not debated any of these people

47:59

Every time he names names, he's named three names that we've documented Shabir Ali. He's never met him

48:05

Abdul Salim is a Christian Now they're Achmed, oh my goodness at least he had an email exchange with him

48:12

But the irony is now they're Achmed never raised the argument that he claimed he did so how can you name three people like that and Not be right about a single one of them.

48:24

I can understand mixing up one name but coming up with the name of a Christian and In every single one of those instances, it's just simply untrue

48:35

Don't you think that given that he spoke these things publicly these weren't this wasn't him sitting around at a restaurant someplace

48:42

This was at an evangelism conference Lee if you're gonna say those things Shouldn't you have an answer for the questions that are being asked and shouldn't the

48:50

Southern Baptist Convention? Want to hear answers to these things don't we hold our leaders if they are leaders accountable when

48:59

I stand in Classroom at Golden Gate and teach on Islam Should I be able to make things up as I go along or should

49:08

I accurately represent the Islamic faith to the best of my ability? Well, I guess ultimately

49:16

When you when I'm thinking about this either these guys like dr. Gary Habermas he teaches at Liberty you know, dr.

49:24

Falwell saw their Jonathan Falwell and did you the whole staff of Liberty University or you know, the philosophy department or whatever apologetics department is either turning a blind eye to this or their

49:39

Permit putting up with this. I'm not sure why why I mean if it what I'm saying Is this is that if if there was this glaring of errors wouldn't

49:46

I wouldn't the school itself and I would like to think so I would like to think so Lee But I'm scared of one thing first of all

49:54

I do know there are people there who simply roll their eyes and you ask about Eric and Cantor and by the way I did need to correct you about something Liberty's not a

49:59

Southern Baptist school It's not a Southern Baptist Seminary No, it's always been no, dr.

50:07

Falwell he he became a Southern Baptist But that does not mean that Liberty Seminary is under the control of the

50:12

Southern Baptist Convention. It's not It's not like Golden Gate. You're saying it's like an independent fundamentalist.

50:18

Okay. Yeah, I stand correct after look into that I mean, I'm not here in any way defending. Dr. Caner. It's just what

50:24

I'm saying as a Southern Baptist looking in on this That there is I mean there's a guy here that's making these statements and because I respect you

50:31

I respect what you're doing with Muslims I'm not sure how you're even alive right now Debating these people mother like, you know,

50:37

Jay Smith I mean, I've seen Jay Smith on these videos get slapped in the face by these Muslims and you know in the speakers

50:44

Square or whatever there and I'm not sure how you're even alive right now London being filled of all these these

50:49

Muslims, so I respect what you're doing I mean, I've seen you debate these people so I mean I've been you know But I just it's just basically the whole integrity of the

50:58

Southern Baptist Conventions that stake here because what you have here is this guy's speaking I mean he spoke in Louisville or this past, you know convention, you know, right?

51:07

I don't speak he speaks at these Lee Lee brother I I hear your heart and my heart breaks because what you're talking about here is a major problem

51:19

It is a major problem in evangelicalism We exalt people and We we we this is an issue of personality

51:27

It makes me it truly makes me incredibly uncomfortable when anyone ever says to me.

51:34

Oh, I'm a fan of yours I don't want fans. I Don't matter. I Don't want quote -unquote followers.

51:43

I Don't want to have to try to impress people The only thing

51:48

I want remembered about me after I'm gone is what I said that was true

51:55

Can I ask you one last question though? I mean here here. Here's a you but one of the leading apologists in the evangelical world,

52:04

I mean if I'm you Like back in the 90s or whatever. You're doing all these debates

52:10

I mean, could you get like a like a PhD for University of Arizona or Arizona State?

52:15

I mean, I don't understand why you went that route. Oh, that's easy that that that's simple It's called

52:22

Being first and foremost committed to my local church. I am a churchman first. I have always said that I Believe the highest calling is service within the church

52:31

There is no office of apologist and there was no place that I could go at that time That offered a degree in apologetics, but you couldn't got a degree in philosophy.

52:39

You got a degree I don't know. I have absolutely positively no interest in that In fact,

52:45

I am very concerned about the fact that there are many Christians who invest much of their life Producing work that will never be read by anybody but five people and will never bet benefit anybody in the church

52:55

I have some serious problems about how we do education How we in debt people up to their eyeballs and expect them to go out in little churches and be happy with what they've got

53:05

They're trying to pay their bills. I believe education should be something done in the local church I don't see anything in the

53:10

New Testament Outside of 1st Timothy 2 to That would give me any indication that that kind of activity is appropriate and I gladly embrace and by the way

53:21

The certain gentleman we're talking about did his PhD work in South Africa by distance

53:27

They don't have accreditation issues there And so I would just like to suggest to everyone unless you go around and read people's doctoral dissertations and amazing enough

53:36

I'm one of the few people who do I Had I had Bart Ehrman's doctoral dissertation sitting on my desk when

53:42

I debated him almost nobody does that but I Would like to suggest to people that the best way to determine someone's scholarship is by what they do

53:51

Not by where they went Isn't it both though in the very fact that you know, it's not five degrees shows you that you think education is important, right?

53:59

You want the fuller and then I did I mean it shows you I mean something's in your mind that you had some kind of it

54:04

Just seems you know just as you look at it being in this realm that it just seems like it's kind of like Cutting a corner or something like that by like you can look at the work

54:12

I've produced and say ah you cut corners to do that. That's fine. If the work that I produced however is Very much in line with what the ministry and my service to my church required me to produce

54:24

Then I leave that between me and the Lord and I have never had actually take the time to look at the work

54:30

I produced and Demonstrate that it's subpar that it's beneath anything that would be produced in any accredited

54:39

Context you really you really think that that book the God that justifies I mean, I've been following your ministry for probably about 15 years and looking at it for a demon

54:48

Yes ever ever read a demon papers Yeah, of course. I've taken class, you know demon classes.

54:54

I'm saying is this Um You know you report you said something earlier when you're you went on you're on that monologue that You'd hold up your scholarship to anything out there.

55:05

Basically that you know in my field. Yes. No, no No, no, I said in my field Lee James Buchanan's book did you know justification, right?

55:14

That's infinitely more of a scholarly book than what you put together in that God I was disappointed, you know I looked at that book the

55:19

God that justifies And I thought this was good people were saying that there was like a The best book that's come out on justification evangelical world since James Buchanan's book

55:28

Yeah, and I looked at that now to the level of that is basically like an undergrad college intro book on justification

55:34

That is not the scholarly book of all time or a hundred years the evangelicals of a justification

55:41

I mean, I know I appreciate your opinion. I'm not the one who claimed that it was however If you give some examples

55:49

No, just a level. I mean I have to get it out, but just a level I mean, sir, you you read more than I do okay, you look at you we can just compare it, you know a book by BB Warfield or Charles Hodge or Or these guys and you compare to the level of writing in that book.

56:04

It's just not on par with that I'm not saying it's a bad book, but it's just not the level of academic

56:10

You know special they already you take a guy like, um, you know, these EP Sanders, you know

56:16

Yeah Standards or and did you read the part where I specifically said that that's what

56:23

I was going to try to avoid was that kind of thing because I Honestly, I've read

56:30

EP Sanders Did that edify you in any way? I think the

56:35

EP standard although I reject Emily everything, you know his whole thing, you know on Psychotemporal Judaism all that thing but the level of scholarship in that challenges evangelicals to have that same

56:47

You know, well we have we just illustrated a fundamental difference as to how we view What you should write how you should write and the fact that yes,

56:56

I address the doctrine of justification In a way that is not dispassionate because I don't know how you can address

57:03

The very foundation of your daily life in a dispassionate fashion, but Lee we've given you a tremendous amount of time

57:09

I appreciate your call and hopefully we've clarified a number of the the issues that have been right.

57:15

Thank you. Thank you very much Since Dan called is Dan still there. All right, let's go ahead and it's gonna completely change the the

57:23

What I know but it's good. You could change the topic, but hi Dan. How you doing? Sorry to keep you on hold for ever and a day, but Obviously it was worth addressing

57:39

I guess on 1st John 5 1 and the order of faith and regeneration and I wanted to chat about that real quickly the verse kind of says the whosoever believes that Jesus is the

57:49

Christ is born of God and Everyone that loves him is the God is loved as him that is begotten.

57:55

So I guess It sounds like you were trying to make the point that this verse is saying that Regeneration comes before faith and I looked it up.

58:07

I guess the I guess the belief is a present participle and has been born as in the perfect tense and I kind of felt where your argument was going, but it sounded like the grammar itself couldn't decide the issue

58:23

Specifically because I guess that has been born was really When I looked it up, it was it's relative to when

58:30

John wrote the epistle not to the believing so it's not saying The person was born before they believed it's saying

58:38

They were born before John wrote that that specific verse How and how how can get

58:44

DNA tie have anything to do and Paul about when John wrote the epistle? I'm confused Well, John, I mean just from a sheer grammar standpoint.

58:53

Yes from a sheer grammar standpoint It says pass hop is true on everyone believing and then that Jesus is the

59:00

Christ has been born of God It's not talking about the writing of the pistol It's describing the the fact that everyone who is truly believing and in John that present tense

59:10

Participle is used of true saving faith This is in the context of the false believers who've the false people who've gone out of the church so on so forth

59:17

You've denied that Jesus is a Christ, etc, etc That's talking about why it is that everyone who has that faith

59:25

That Jesus the Christ white. Why is that? What's what's the unanimity? What what is the the factor that binds all them together?

59:33

They've all been born of God That's why a person believes in Jesus the Christ. It's a supernatural confession

59:39

Okay, I guess my point is that a perfect tense verb in Greek is

59:45

The timing of that is pegged to either when it's spoken or written The perfect tense verb refers to a a complete action in the past that has abiding results the present

59:56

That's correct It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the time frame of the writer if a particular context is provided Did you read my did you did you watch my video where I gave you the two?

01:00:07

grammatically Perfect parallels in first John. Yes, I did and I guess

01:00:12

I'll make a point on that as well The believing is is a present participle and it's not a one -time, you know instantiation of faith or when faith starts

01:00:22

But it's talking basically about perseverance and so the point overall seems to be that You know, it's kind of a test of assurance that we're given.

01:00:34

So, you know, if if you've been Saved you can you can look at your life and say, okay

01:00:41

You know, I can see that I've been persevering in the faith and that means that my return Um, I was

01:00:47

I was born again, but that's that's real So it's not really about the the start of faith the inception of faith it's really about the perseverance and faith

01:00:56

Well, I have absolutely no question that the substantival participle hoppest you own which is used throughout the

01:01:03

Ohanian corpus Refers not only to the the nature of true saving faith that it is ongoing but that it will persevere

01:01:11

There's no question about that. However, what you seem to be missing is the statement that John makes that Differentiates true believers from false believers.

01:01:21

There are those who had gone out from the the Christian Church They denied that Jesus was a Christ They denied that Jesus come in the flesh and in first John 5 one

01:01:30

We're told that everyone believing everyone who has this this true saving faith that Jesus is the

01:01:37

Christ That one has been born of God. It was not by having that they're being born from God The reason that they have been born from God That according to John one is

01:01:49

God's work. He's the one who causes us to be born again He's the one who caused us not the will of man not the will of a husband

01:01:56

But of God that causes us to be born again But the whole point is why is it that anyone continues believing that Jesus Christ because they have supernatural life

01:02:07

Saving faith is a supernatural thing and the parallels in first John 2 29 and 4 7 bear this out

01:02:14

Unless you're gonna believe that in first John 2 29 it is by doing Good works doing works of righteousness that we cause ourselves to be born again

01:02:24

No, first John 2 29. The reason that we are doing good works is because we have been born from God That's the whole point.

01:02:32

And so I'm sorry. I mean, I completely agree with what you're saying You know the but it relates to the perseverance and faith not the the start of faith.

01:02:42

It doesn't make that differentiation There how can you say how can you say how can you say that the start of faith preceded being born again?

01:02:50

But then to continue believing you have to be born again. How can this start? I'm I'm not saying

01:02:55

I'm saying it's silent on that. I'm saying it just doesn't talk about the start of faith It's it talks about the perseverance.

01:03:02

It's not the start. Well since it is a present tense Anyone who is right now believing that Jesus the

01:03:08

Christ The reason they are doing so is because they have been born of God Therefore a person who says that a person who has not been born of God can have that very same believing

01:03:19

In Jesus has a real question to answer because that would seem to reverse the order that he has here

01:03:26

But thank you, Dan. I Dan I appreciate it We've we've gone over time even for that But I think we have have addressed the issue fairly clearly in the videos that we've put forward

01:03:36

Wow, that was a fast hour and we didn't get to most things people in Twitter You were throwing all sorts of stuff at me, unfortunately 98 % of it wasn't about the subject that we were addressing so I couldn't get to that But I appreciate the fact that you were listening

01:03:50

Hopefully you can see that we have some important issues to address It concerns me that there were even having to address these things if you're gonna make public statements as a teacher

01:04:01

Then you need to be held accountable for those things I just don't see how anybody can get around that but we'll continue with our discussion on Thursday.

01:04:08

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