October 23, 2017 Show with Tom Ascol on “Letting Truth Offend Without Adding Our Own Offensiveness”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions

Now, here's our host Chris Arnton Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth were listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com

This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Monday on this 23rd day of October 2017

I'm so delighted to have back on the program a dear friend who is one of my favorite guests also a phenomenal preacher that I am eagerly looking forward to hear preach again this

January at the g3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia, and we'll be talking more about that in a bit, but I am referring to dr

Tom Askell who is executive director of founders ministries and Senior pastor at Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida today.

We are going to be addressing the theme Letting truth offend without adding our own

Offensiveness and that's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio. Dr.

Tom Askell Thank you so much Chris. I'm glad to be back with you and In studio with me is my co -host the reverend buzz

Taylor and it's once again good to be on with you time And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is

Chris Arntzen at gmail .com. That's c h r i s a Arntzen at gmail .com

Please give us at least your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA and please only remain anonymous if you're asking about a personal and Private matter that would compel you not to identify yourself.

Perhaps you even disagree with your own pastor on An issue so you'd rather not identify yourself and that is completely understandable and perhaps you're a pastor and you disagree with your own denomination or your own fellowship or brotherhood

Well, we will respect your wishes and not identify your name But please otherwise just give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA before we go into this a Very important topic a topic that I have addressed on a number of occasions on iron trip and Zion radio

But I think it's always good to hear something as important as this again and perhaps from a different person from a different point of view different perspective

But before we go into letting truth offend without adding our own offensiveness

Tell our listeners if you could especially For the sake of those who have not yet heard you on iron trip and Zion radio because it seems we get new listeners every week

Tell us something about founders ministries Well, I'm glad to do that Chris.

Thank you founders ministries Organizations been around for over 30 years now.

It began with a group of really the seven men Had a burden about what

God was doing among us as Baptists. We were all Baptists We're all Southern Baptists There seemed to be good things happening in the

Southern Baptist Convention that was back in the day the inerrancy movement was in its infancy there were men many of us concerned to see our

Convention of churches brought back to a robust commitment to the inerrancy and infallibility of God's Word and Yet in the midst of that we recognize that inerrancy is not enough

That we have to take seriously what that inerrant word actually says and we have to be confident in its sufficiency

For all that God's called us to do and be as people in the church and as ministers of the gospel

So we were committed to the doctrines of grace We realized that these doctrines of God's sovereign grace and salvation

Were taught and believed by those who founded the Southern Baptist Convention So as we fellowshiped with our forefathers over these doctrines through their writings that we discovered

We determined it would be a good thing to try to recover this Understanding and encourage others to take a second look at the

Bible to see what it has to say about how God actually does save sinners And we start publishing

Materials and holding conferences and founders ministries was born out of that So we've been doing that now as I said for over 30 years

We're not a we're not any kind of club. You can join. We're not as domination. We're not limited to the

Southern Baptist Convention We are just committed to seeing local churches be

Biblically renewed and reformed and to see the gospel being recovered and given its place of priority and preeminence

In the lives of God's people again Well now also tell us about Greece Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida Well grace is a church that's almost 35 years old and I am the second pastor the founding pastor

Didn't last long. It's a church that was founded by people who really did honor the

Bible love the Bible, but weren't very familiar with what was in the Bible and So they didn't have a very good start and had trouble from day one.

I came in year three I like to tell people that at that point grace that this was a church.

Nobody wanted I was a pastor. Nobody wanted You know,

I was laughing over your last comment so you were a match made in heaven And God's been so kind to us churches put up with me and the

Lord's taught us things along the way And it's a wonderful congregation and we have our blemishes like everyone

But we are enjoying a great deal of God's kindness and mercy And some some real biblical health that we've seen over the last many years and we don't want to take that for granted

You know that we're only about two or three minutes from chaos at any given point, but God has been so faithful to us so we're

We're delighted to be down here in southwest, Florida trying to be faithful preaching the gospel and Extending the kingdom to the best of our ability

A Man and we'll be giving contact information for your congregation and for founders ministries towards the end of the program but this discussion that we're having

I Think that we all need to be reminded about this issue of letting the truth offend without adding our own offensiveness

We have to be reminded about it because it seems that Christians Fall into one of two extremes very often you have one extreme where you have bullheaded

Unpolite or impolite Rarely aggressive individuals who?

have a certain agenda in regard to theology or practice in regard to their

Christian faith and They they push it down people's throats with a lack of humility and grace and with a lot of Perhaps a divisive

Agenda or mentality and then you have on the other extreme something that perhaps is more dominant today

I think it's the more dominant problem when within mainstream Evangelicalism is that you have people who are far more concerned over offending others than they are over offending

God and They're far more concerned over offending people human beings than they are over violating the scriptures or preserving the truth of the scriptures and You know, we and in fact even individuals may be on both sides of those extremes at different times depending upon what the subject is or Depending depending upon who they're talking to they might treat their own family in a different way than they are treating their neighbors or or what have you but Tell us why?

You as a Southern Baptist, especially where today even though this was not the case a hundred years ago when

Calvinists seemed to dominate the Southern Baptist Convention. In fact the as you have already addressed on the program the the entirety of the

Southern Baptist Convention was founded by Those who were committed to the doctrines of Sovereign Grace but today you are those who believe in the doctrines of Sovereign Grace are a minority in that denomination and you know in the midst of being vilified yourself and Being slandered in regard to theological matters and doctrine and so on It's it's

I'm sure a difficult task to maintain that balance of Standing up for truth without being nasty mean -spirited

Vindictive etc. If you could tell us about your own experience as a Southern Baptist pastor Well, yeah,

I've been on both sides of that coin Sadly, I wish weren't so but it certainly has been my sad experience to be just almost hard -hearted

Toward people who have disagreed with me and I've got a trail in my history that God knows

His grace alone can cover Treating people very harshly because of our differences and I'm not happy about that I've helped me through the years, but I find that it still lives in me

Early on when I was a student at Southwestern I remember getting into a debate in a

Reformation theology class And that debate carried over after the class in the hallways

Fellow student and I ultimately were asked by other professors to vacate the building because we were so animated in our

Argumentation and I look back on that God used that particular event to Open my eyes to just the depths of my own pride and sin at that time and began to work in me

I wish I could tell you he's worked further than he has thus far but began to work in me a realization that being right is not enough and Understanding the truth is not enough

In fact, if I understand the truth and I do not love which I'm obligated to do

Then the scripture says that in reality I'm nothing and that's a sobering thought to hear what

Paul says in first Corinthians 13 If I Understand all mysteries if I have prophetic powers

I have all knowledge of faith move mountains, but I don't have love I'm nothing

So if I believe this Bible that I take seriously whose truth

I want to advance and advocate But I have to believe that too and that's an indictment on Any kind of pride or arrogance or any kind of disdainful?

Dismissive attitude that I might show to anyone especially to my brothers and sisters who are in the faith

But who may disagree with me on certain points of the faith? now the the the passiveness with which people

Basically very often will hide their their beliefs they will

Let Conversations come and go and Never even bring up unique things that may divide them from other believers.

And and also I mean even worse than that is when people Don't even share the gospel with with anyone because they're more concerned either about offending those around them or perhaps even more concerned about themselves becoming a laughingstock or Somehow perhaps

Losing some benefit in this life. Perhaps you might even lose your job as a result of your beliefs now

I'm not saying that of course We who are Christians should be stealing time from our employees employers,

I'm sorry by Using our the hours that we are hired to work to evangelize.

I'm not talking about that. But sometimes people Might be just so offended because you are not in lockstep with the leftism of our day and age you may be and you should be as a

Christian opposed to abortion and and Opposed to homosexuality and things like that and your employers just may be infuriated and He may may either not treat you with the

Respect that an employee should be treated with but he might even fire you but When it comes to these things

We in our day and age at least in America. We are living in a rather comfortable existence we are not as some of our brothers and Sisters are in the

Sudan and other parts of the world who are being tortured and murdered for their faith We can be cowards over such

It's infinitely less serious issues, can't we Absolutely, and I do think it comes right back down to this same issue of love

If we understand what love is what love does love rejoices in the truth

And we are called upon to speak the truth in love Which sometimes we can speak the truth and forget the love and sometimes we can think that to be loving means to not speak the truth

But those of us who know the truth and who know that God who lives love We should work hard to recognize that if I love somebody then

I need for them I ought to love them as much as I love myself and to do that.

I want for them what I want for myself What's the best thing I can do for someone like I can show them and help them to see

The way of salvation is provided for us in Jesus Christ myself. I want to be accepted by God you know the fullness of his love and adoption through Jesus Christ and I should want that for others and the most loving thing

I Can do for anybody is to help them see and understand and believe in the

Lord Jesus Christ Who alone can save us so to not speak because I think it's going to be offensive is

Can feel loving but in reality can be very hateful When to speak at times might be interpreted by some as hateful

But in reality, it is very loving and so as Christians We've been given

God's word we can give this spirit and we have the best Opportunity to see these things and to grapple with them to try to keep them in their proper

Integrated relationship to be people who are committed to truth and because of that we are committed to love and that Enables us and empowers us to speak and to try to encourage people to know the truth as we have come to know it without Being obnoxious about it and we have a listener in White Plains, New York RJ And our

RJ wants to know Is it true as? many

Armenians in ministry claim that Calvinists too often

Dishonest when they are applying for positions in pastoral oversight at other congregations

They are doing so in stealth and hiding their Calvinism only to spring it upon the congregations later

Do you agree with this kind of behavior and what should be done about it? First of all, let me say that I do not agree with that kind of behavior the way that it has been described

And then let me quickly add that I do not know anyone who has ever done that I'm not saying that it has never been done.

I'm saying that I don't know anyone who's ever done that I do know many brothers who have been falsely accused of that and that they're put in a no -win position by denominational leaders or by spokesmen for churches in various circles

With this kind of argument on the one hand We've been told all you Calvinists want to talk about is

Calvinism And so every time you have a conversation you turn to Calvinism and then on the other hand

We're told why you didn't talk about Calvinism. So you're being dishonest for not bringing it up Here's the reality with many churches.

It's getting better but it's still the case with many many churches whenever they sit to interview a

Candidate for pastor they do not have enough theological understanding to have much of a theological conversation

Now would it be prudent? Would it be fair? Would it even be loving in a situation like that for a candidate to bring up?

Theological issues like I want to talk to you about superlateralism. I want to talk to you about the ordos salutis

I want to talk to you about Predestination even and these are things that the people who are interviewing very often would have no idea

What he's talking about and no way to engage that conversation. It would be unloving to do that I haven't said that I don't think anybody should hide what they believe and What I've done what

I've urged others to do is either to adopt a confessional faith and write out your confession of faith

And so this is what I believe and this is how the ministry that I'll be Engaging week by week in the teaching of God's Word It'll be coming from this theological understanding

I'm willing to open openly answer any questions and be forthcoming but recognize that it's unwise and Unhelpful to try to engage in certain theological conversations with people who do not have the categories in their mind

To entertain that conversation. So it's almost like a no -win position.

You bring it up Well, that's all you ever talk about it Well, the people have walked away the interviews and they've been accused of all he wanted to talk about was

Calvinism on the other hand They don't bring it up the committee didn't bring it up and then later They said well you deceived us because you didn't bring this up.

So it's it's it's difficult and my Encouragement always be honest be forthcoming be wise and don't hide anything

Recognize that you may not be able to talk about Everything and there there are many more things beyond Calvinism to talk about in that kind of context

And so I'm not surprised it's because it doesn't come up and it's not a big issue

That a guy doesn't bring it up and of course Intentionally hiding

What you believe could be Be a suicide mission as far as your pastoral career because you may wind up voluntarily jumping into a snake pit for lack of a better term and you're just going to be attacked every way you turn and it could be more of a problem for you and your life and the life of your family as a minister than then

Being more patient for the correct or the the appropriate the appropriate

Church who has a theological match for you to come about Yeah, that's true.

That's a very good point And I would add say that I just talked to different churches across the years different times

For a variety of reasons not because I was candidate and just ask them if they tell me to tell me what their confession

Effacious they have articles of faith. What are they and more times than not?

There has been a blank stare in response The people didn't know if they had articles of faith or if they had articles of faith they didn't know what they were and that's just a commentary on where we are today and Have been for the last few generations in American evangelicalism and so given that context

It's unwise and it's it's unfruitful To try to launch into a detailed theological conversation.

You've got to start with fundamentals what is the Bible and what does the Bible say who is God and What is humanity and who is

Jesus Christ? These are things that we might take for granted But I would assert that we cannot afford to assume them anymore

We have to teach them line upon line Precept upon precept because many of our churches have been so poorly taught for so long that some of these basic Biblical theological categories are lost

We have a question from David and Ada, Ohio. I have been studying 2nd

Peter chapter 2 12 But these like irrational animals creatures of instinct born to be caught and destroyed

Blaspheming about matters on which they are ignorant will also be destroyed in their in their destruction

Concerning the blasphemer. How would you deal with them? 2nd

Peter chapter 2 12 2 12 and could you just repeat the last part of the question?

Concerning the blasphemer. How would you deal with them? Well, again, it depends if they're inside or outside of the church right the church

They must be dealt with because they have violated the very things that they profess

It allowed us to bring them into the church And so they must be called upon to repent instructed if they refused in Matthew 18 first Corinthians 5

Those passages must be followed to remove them a blasphemers outside the church. I don't

I don't Tend to think of their blasphemy as being the greatest issue to address

What I want to try to keep in mind is these people are under the wrath of God and they need to be

Brought into a saving relationship with Jesus Christ So I want to try to help them see the truth believe the truth and yet I recognize too that in those kind of context

There are occasions when in Matthew 7 as Jesus taught us It's appropriate to Put your pearls back in your pocket and not continue to cast them and you just realize this is not the time

I'm not the person this is not the opportunity Me to continue to try to persuade a person to turn from sin and trust

Christ And we have a similar question, I believe from CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York CJ says when we are in the presence of unbelievers in social settings perhaps family gatherings are we as Christians to constantly correct or Even lovingly rebuke those around us when they use the name of the

Lord in vain When they say things that are blasphemous when they say things that are crude perhaps even sexually

How often are we supposed to sit around and correct people when they are not even regenerate and we are not their pastors

Yeah, that's a difficult issue too, and yeah, I think some of it would Be determined largely by the context

Whenever you're around unregenerate people and they are acting and speaking in ways that are just vile and blasphemous

It can be easy to just look at those Expressions and focus in on those rather than to remember that this is coming from a heart

That has not tasted of God's grace a heart that doesn't know Christ And so what good would it be if I could convince someone who always speaks profanely to quit speaking profanely

And yet they go to hell without speaking profanities, and I wouldn't have done them much good

So I never want to lose sight of what the real issue is. There are times. I've done it I think it's almost inevitable whenever someone will continue to take the

Lord's name in vain or continue to speak in such obnoxious and Inappropriate ways it

I didn't need to remove myself I need to try to get that person to understand what he's doing that it's offensive that is going to cause me to remove myself and those

I care about and my Authority or ask him to be removed and Again, the context will largely depend upon that You know if I'm a guest at someone's house that they may be bleeding if they're a guest in my house

There's a whole different certain set of circumstances there I can explain to them how we operate in our home glad to have you here you may not continue to talk like that and and yet to do it in a way that Tries to find at least an open door leave it a door open for why these things bother us

I'm bothered by this not because I'm a sexual prudent. I'm bothered by this because this is a attack upon the very things are dear to me that I've staked my soul upon and That I think if you saw and understood and believe you would see completely differently today

Well, thank you CJ and Lindenhurst Long Island keep spreading the word about iron sharpens iron radio on Long Island and beyond We're gonna go to a break right now.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own as RJ and CJ did

RJ from White Plains and CJ from Lindenhurst our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

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We are addressing the theme letting truth offend Without adding our own offensiveness and our email address if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own is

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris a

RN Z n at gmail .com and only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter we have a

Listener in Lagos, Nigeria Osanachi and Osanachi says great topic given the hyper sensitivity of our day

There are those who in a bid to not offend suggest directly and indirectly that believers

Should numb the truth and then there are those who really want to speak truth

But lay so much emphasis and approach e .g. the tone of one's voice written or verbal but looking at our

Lord in a good number of situations and The likes of John the

Baptist one gets through one gets the sense that there was a

Reliance on the spoken word as a hammer and an instrument sharper than any two -edged sword

And not so much on the sensibilities of the recipients now I am in no way saying that our

Lord was insensitive or that we should be but I am basically asking is Should we not be thinking and focusing on speaking the truth in love?

obviously as it is in Christ and not how a pair of ears

Will feel because they're adverse to God's Holy Word in Which case we become prone to watering down his word

Well, that's a great question what comes to my mind is the Westminster larger catechism,

I forget which question answered with age 172 176 In which the questions ask how should the word of God be preached and there's a long answer

Within that answers this phrase according to the necessity and capacity of the hearers

So one of the things we must always Be conscious of as those who have the truth

God's taught us the truth We want to share that truth and spread is not only the accurate communication of it

That's important, but we should be concerned about how it is received now

We don't control that completely but to the degree that we can think about it and influence it

We ought to try to do so. That's what that answer is suggesting Jesus himself said to his disciples have many things to teach you but you're not able to receive them yet or now

So he did not say Some things because he was thinking about the capacity of his hearers we see that in Hebrews 5 and 6 as well that there was a

Author believed that they should be able to Be mature enough to receive things, but they were not so he was going to stick back with elemental things for him

So we should always take into consideration our hearers I don't think that's a cop -out and what that means is that I will speak to someone who is a mature

Christian Differently that I will speak to an immature Christian and I will speak to an immature

Christian differently that I will speak to an unbeliever I'll speak to a child differently that I will speak to an adult.

I think these things are born out in scriptures We have plenty of places that would instruct us about how to take into consideration

Those to whom we are speaking not to rebuke an elder for example As well as the content of what we are to say so I would agree with my brother on the heat on the one hand

That yes, we ought to be very concerned about The truth and not try to shave off any of the

Pointed edges of it if it's edgy truth It's that which God has revealed and we should trust him with that But I would want to take exception and go on to say we do need to take into consideration those

To whom we are speaking and our goal is not simply to communicate accurately

What has been entrusted to us but to communicate it in a way that we can be winsome and persuasive effective to the degree that that opportunity risks in us

And the Reverend Buzz Taylor has something to say I think especially as a pastor because I had an experience where I listened to a lot of my recordings of my earlier preaching and The impression

I got you know, I was teaching the word, but I was thinking well Why do I sound like I'm so mad at my congregation?

I'm I'm yelling at them and and you know, I came across James 317 that says but the wisdom from above is first pure then peaceable and I like oh my gentle reasonable full of mercy and good fruits unwavering without hypocrisy and you know that that Transformed my preaching right there because it's like, you know,

I had a whole different view of it that yes You know

Paul said, you know, you preach with doctrine, but he also said patience because it's it's required

You're talking to people who are just as slow to receive as I was While while we have that thought buzz

I know that you Are a graduate of Bob Jones University and that you have gone through Quite a development in theology since then and you are not only reformed but much to my dismay

Presbyterian But you from time to time you have contact with some of your old classmates who?

Still have held on to an anti Calvinist Viewpoint not only a non

Calvinist one, but one that is very hostile towards your beliefs. How do you handle those discussions without?

Blowing off steam by you know, raising your voice or being You know, perhaps prone to mockery or something like that.

How do you prevent that? well, I had a crisis experience at one point where I was discussing the the doctrines of grace and It was with a particular girl that I had worked with and I I Remember we were we were getting, you know into a heated debate over it and I caught myself yelling and I thought wait a minute

What it's not a personal offense against me if she can't see it

And I went back to her a few days later and I you know said to her, you know Like I just want to tell you, you know, my my

I was totally out of line then You know by letting anger get into the whole situation and you know a few years later

She started talking to me at work once about the doctrines of grace and I'm like, wait a minute. You you got it But yeah, but I caught myself and that that made me stop and think you know because of the fact that I do deal with a lot of my former classmates and it is difficult and I Mean, they just are bullheaded and you know, it's you have to deliberately

Watch your own self, you know I have to be aware that that is my tendency and to watch out for it before it flares up Yeah, dr

Tom don't we often forget that it is even grace that opened up our eyes to these things and we sometimes

Develop a haughty or self -righteous or superior attitude When the doctrines of grace are supposed to do the exact opposite of that bring us to our knees and humility

Hey, man, I'm reminded of an example that John Newton used one time

He said so many who couldn't believe these doctrines are like a blind man Who's been given sight and then he goes and picks up a stick and starts beating other blind men because why?

You know You've been to the Chris since you brought it up Chris. Okay, I didn't bring this up.

But since you did I'll go ahead and latch on to this but Going through ministerial training

Maybe time you can tell me you've also been through ministerial training and you know I've said to a lot of people when you go to ministerial training you see it all the kind of people that you're dealing with there that are running around correcting everybody and all and You know

Paul said That there are some who preach Christ out of strife and I used to question well

How do you preach Christ out of strife? and well I certainly when I think back I've seen a lot of it where There are a lot of people in the ministry simply because they have a chip on their shoulder and it's it's an opportunity to stand

In front of a congregation and yell at them Like they're the big boss, you know, and there's

I don't know you've probably seen a lot of that yourself though, right? sure Have and I you know,

I wish I could tell you that I've been free from doing any of that, dude God's been so kind and merciful to me through the years of helping me to see some of those things in myself and Guiding me away from them.

Yeah That that one argument that I just mentioned earlier in the hallway that spilled out into the courtyard.

I mean that that night I didn't sleep. I just opened my eyes I saw it. I actually wrote the fellow student a letter asking to forgive me and he was gracious to do so But it it just was a little peek

Into what what resides there that needs to be mortified that it's it's not mortified will erupt

Time and again and I hate it. I'm sorry that it's there I know that it is I I had an interesting experience just a week or so ago

My wife and I were on vacation and we're staying at a friend's home the cabin that he let us use and We were having a very lazy

Afternoon we were just finishing up lunch a knock on the door when I go to the door and it's

It's two Jehovah's Witnesses and it didn't take me too long to figure out. That's who they were And so I just asked that's where are you

Jehovah's Witnesses? And I said, yes, we are So we you don't believe that Jesus is the eternal son of God that do you

They said well, no, we don't and that's what I'll tell you what I'll take your literature if you'll do me a favor if you'll agree to go to any bookstore by any reputable

Translation of the scriptures and read the Gospel of John and starting in John 1 1 and so they said oh we do that You know, we have lots of translations

He said we have the New American Standard, that's all you do is you know what it says what John 1 1 says

He said yeah, it says this and then he quoted his typical Jehovah's Witness version Word was a

God and when he said that I just every sense of compassion and humility just seemed to be vacuumed out of my soul and I just got upset and I started just Telling them this is that's not true.

That is you've lied if somebody tells you that they've lied to you and You know, we went on for three or four minutes and it just dawned on me.

I can't believe I'm in this conversation Being so angry at this fella who's on his way to hell if he doesn't come to know the true gospel

And here I am saying I have the true gospel and I'm acting like a jerk And You know, we

I walked away from that They left and I went back my wife's heard it all and it just that that stuff resides in me

I hate it. I wish you weren't there, but I know I'm capable of that So yeah, I mean not only have

I seen it and others sadly. I've seen it myself and It's a horrible way for those of us who know the truth to be

So here we are confessing these things to Chris now Don't help me brother

We have Arnie and Perry County, Pennsylvania Who says

Jesus it seems had a much harsher way of dealing with false religious leaders than he did

With those that were considered the pariah of society like prostitutes and thieves and and others

With overtly wicked behavior How do we apply that same pattern of behavior that Christ seemed to demonstrate to our lives today?

Well, I personally I do hold those who have positions of responsibility of leadership religiously

To a much higher standard than I do others. So if a man is a pastor a man is a recognized teacher in The Christian world at any branch then

I do think that that person has a greater accountability James 3 says that and Based upon the very fact that Jesus did that I do think that we we should hold them to a higher standard

So for example, whenever a church leader Promotes heresy.

I find that far more significant than when a church member might Dabble with their question fall into it or have

Have interests in it and I treat those significantly differently now

In regard to that even there wouldn't you have different approaches for instance?

you may have a very well intentioned pastor who has just been

Taught incorrectly he may have been raised in a certain denomination or Religion that has anywhere from a mildly to a damnably heretical view of certain things if you're gonna have a cup of coffee with this individual or lunch or or some kind of a

Interaction with them isn't there a difference where you might have an opportunity to to speak the truth and love to someone who is

Teachable who is respectful to you Etc. Unlike the

Pharisees obviously if you may have the same kind of a meeting with a leader or religious leader or a allegedly

Christian leader who is openly denouncing biblical truth and That there is there is a

Different kind of a scenario there, isn't it? But and especially if that person is trying to Seduce people out from your own flock into this heresy.

Oh Yeah, completely. Those are two different categories. I think and you know, I Remember, it's a nephesis in Acts chapter 18

Aquila and Priscilla Found a policy there. He was very eloquent and yet he needed to be taught more accurately the way of Christ And so they took him aside and they did that.

Well, I'm praise God for that I want to have that kind of spirit and I hope others others have had that kind of spirit

You know, they will continue to do so that where we are committed to the same gospel to the same

Understanding of what the scripture is that if I'm not seeing something as clearly as I should

I hope brothers will help me to see It more clearly and I want to do the same that's different than Someone showing up and teaching that you must not only trust

Christ, but you must be circumcised You must do this or do that. I hope that I'd be willing to Be as bold as Paul and standing against that and not giving one inch to them in that kind of heresy

So yeah, I think that's an important distinction to make We have to realize also what our our motive is

I mean if if we're trying to convince them of greater truth well, it's gonna be different than if we're just trying to win an argument and a lot of that has to do with you know,

Am I just am I speaking Christ out of my own personal pride or am

I actually, you know in defense of truth? for truth's sake Yeah, that's right.

I I have found in myself and one of the things I fight against it does live in me is

To give up and just quit being concerned about winning arguments. Yeah, I hope it's true

I don't care if I never win another argument. I really do want to win people though I want to see people come to know the truth be set free by the truth and be established firmly in the truth

And so there are people all across the spectrum Some who never bowed to Jesus some who are bowing to Jesus yet And so I hope that I'm willing to let a lot of things go for the sake of trying to win those people

To be more established in the truth of Christ We have to go to our midway break right now

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for dr. Tom Askell our email address is

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When we look forward to hearing from you and we'll be right back. God willing after these messages from our sponsors

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Christian books from Chris Arnzen On iron sharpens iron radio before we return to our discussion with dr

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Letting truth offend without adding our own offensiveness. I just have a few important announcements to make regarding special events that are being held by our sponsors.

Well, first of all, let me remind you about the Iron sharpens iron radio pastors luncheon this

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and put advertising in the subject line We are now back to our discussion with dr

Tom Askell who is the executive director of founders ministries and senior pastor at Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida we are discussing letting truth offend without adding our own offensiveness and The email address for a question if you'd like to send one in is chrisarnson at gmail .com

and we do have a question from Christopher in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York and the question

Involves, let's see. Where is his question? Here it is. It's involves Matthew chapter 5 22

Of Christopher says when Jesus Christ says But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court and whoever says to his brother

You good -for -nothing Shall be guilty before the Supreme Court and whoever says you fool shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell

How does this? Teaching of Jesus which seems very clear Stand compatible with what the

Apostle Paul said to the Church of Galatia He seems to use some of the very language that Jesus prohibits

That's a good question, I don't know that I've ever put those two passages together to consider it quite like that I mean what what

Jesus is talking about? It seems to me is Taking upon ourselves the position of Of God and Saying as he says here to his brother.

So someone who is one with us in Christ before God that he is a fool in the sense that he doesn't know

God and therefore We're judging him to hell in that sense. That's a that's a pretty serious

Position to put yourself in it's a pretty serious and incriminating Responsibility according to what

Jesus says I assume you saw that Galatians 1 Where Paul says if someone comes and preaches to you a gospel other than that which

I preach to you let him be anathema or condemned to hell and That is a hypothetical but it's a hypothetical that we should take seriously yes, if someone comes even claiming to be impossible or someone claiming to be an angel and Denies the gospel of Jesus Christ that we are to regard that person regardless of what status he might have either taken to himself or been accorded by others as worthy of being eternally damned

So I don't know I've answered the question exactly but that's the way I see those two passages.

I don't think they are incompatible Do you think that the

Apostle Paul Had a liberty to treat professing believers in a way that we do not have

I mean because of the fact that he wasn't an apostle I Think certainly the

Apostles were given gifts that we don't have Jesus Peter could look at Simon Magis and Declare that his heart was not right with God Well, that's a judgment that I can't make that I think

Peter as an apostle We have recorded did make and so I can I can Kind of credit that to his apostolic authority.

So yes, I think so we have Let's see here we have

John and Bangor mean who says Are you as disturbed as I am that we who are in the

Reformed community? Continue to have battles over areas that are secondary or tertiary to the point where we divide and Splinter in the midst of knowing that we already are a tiny minority on the

Christian landscape Are we not diminishing our own influence and voice in the world by these constant divisions?

Well, yes, I think in the main that is certainly true I'm not you know,

I'm encouraged with the Reform movement. However, I think that God is Has given us a great deal more

Increase than certainly what I ever expected to see in my lifetime So while it is true, they're probably in the large scale with a minority report

I think we're very influential and forceful report now I haven't said that I agree completely with that sentiment the question of the questioner and it does grieve me to see

Those of us who agree on so much so quickly being willing to turn on one another on these tertiary type of Issues and it you know,

I just hate it. I think we've got a large war We need every available gun pointed in the right direction

And I'm happy to have intramural dialogues and debates that they should be carried out among brothers

And we should be willing to save our strong Arguments and oppositions and and standing against people for those that are outside the

Christian faith So yeah, I agree with that It is a sad thing and I think one sense that those of us were

Reformed our greatest strength and become our our greatest weakness if we're not careful that is our strength is that we love the truth and God's taught us the truth and so many of us have paid a pretty high price for Coming to believe and profess this truth, but that love for the truth can sometimes blind us to making distinctions between matters that are of utmost importance and other matters which we can't neglect because a reveal but don't fall into that category of Being a first importance like first Corinthians 15 1 through 3 indicates

Yeah, I've said before on this program That reform people have a very good

Attribute typically in that we are meticulous About being correct when we exegete passages of the

Bible and we are typically more prone to be very very careful not to isajeet and we are very

Protective of truth Within our own congregations and within our own fellowships and very quick to point out error when it rises

Or raises its ugly head but because of the fact that we are sinners and We are not yet in glory where we are going to be perfect and we were going we are always gonna have right motives that that can be in a bad combination when it lends itself to being

Overly Judgmental and persecuted persecutory against Those who disagree with us would you say that that's a correct summation of what the problem is?

Yeah, I agree with that What's the antidote sometimes

I've had people Suggest that the antidote to that problem is you just need to quit being so serious or quit being so Driven to know and understand the truth.

I don't think that's As we need to go deeper into the truth We need to believe the truth that says that even if I understand all these mysteries

Have all knowledge of faith to move a mountain and don't have love. I'm nothing I need to believe that as strongly as I do unconditional election and This is a curiosity.

This may be somewhat off Topic but it just popped into my head because of something

I just said there seems to be a Division amongst reform people as to whether or not we should ever use the term sinners

For those who are in the body of Christ that sinners is exclusively a label for the unregenerate

But I don't know how to speak normally Recognizing that I am a sinner.

Well that I sin I should say that without using the term. I'm a sinner Is what do you have a side in this fight?

Well, yeah, I agree with Martin Luther, you know that we are once at the same time both justified and sinful

And so I don't have any problem with that. There's more to be said than sinner So someone said if you had to only choose one word sinner wouldn't be adequate to describe a

Christian first, I think it is I Don't know the way my understanding of Romans 7 just relieves me of any kind of offensiveness or hesitation of saying that sin remains in us and that we are

We sin because we are sinners. It's not the other way around. So yeah,

I am still a sinner, but that's not all I am I'm a justified sinner in the spirit I've been born again and is being sanctified to a place where one day

I will be completely free And no longer be a sinner, yeah, I can't help but shout amen to What John Newton said?

Towards the end of his life. I remember two things that I'm a great sinner and Christ is a great

Savior Right, right We have

Let's see here we have Bebe in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania who said if you could sum up in five areas that are matters to die for and matters to Be willing to speak boldly to those in disagreement to the point of even

Breaking fellowship with them. What would those five matters be? Well, certainly

Jesus Christ Substitutionary atonement of Christ his bodily resurrection the

Trinity of God The Those those would be key

I mean from that there are so many dimensions Beneath and beyond them as well

I Can have fellowship with someone who is careful in the way that he would articulate

His understanding of the authority and scriptures that does not fit my unreserved unhesitating

Conviction that it is inerrant and fallible Is it is given to us in completeness?

Somebody can disagree with the way I say that and still affirm the authority of scriptures in a way that I wouldn't break fellowship with them

But somebody who treats the Bible as just another book I would not be able to fellowship with someone who did not recognize the unique authority of the scriptures

And I'm assuming you would share the Apostle Paul's conviction over the gospel because the

Judaizers As far as we know agreed with the Apostle Paul on most important doctrinal issues except they added circumcision to Faith as a means of justifying them.

That's right. That's true. I would do that Thank You BB continues spreading the word about iron sharpens iron radio in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and beyond and The issue of being nice Is there a command in Scripture to to always be nice because it seems that those that are on the the end of the spectrum that are

Sacrificing truth at the altar of niceness seem to think that that is one of the the top priorities of our

Behavior as Christians that we are always to be nice. But I mean we already have discussed Areas in the scripture where Jesus Christ and the

Apostle Paul And others were not really nice to people We're not supposed to always be nice.

Are we? No, we're to be kind would be loving but sometimes with you are being kind and loving you will be regarded as Not nice.

That's right. If you're if you're actually concerned about where people are spending eternity Sometimes you have to use the analogy of Of a parent and a child like a is it better for a parent not to frighten his child?

By Refraining from yelling at that child when he's sticking a fork in an electric socket or wandering into a highway

All right, exactly. My wife is a trained pediatric nurse and when she was practicing nursing early in our marriage she would come home frustrated at times because she worked in a pediatric hospital and she'd be frustrated with parents who sometimes would look at her and her colleagues who would have to Hold down a child who didn't want a shot or didn't want a treatment and appear to be treating them rather roughly in order to promote their health and The parent would say something like this.

I could never be a nurse. I just love children too much And Donna would say well, I just had to bite my tongue yelling.

I do this because I don't like children She was loving those children she was helping them to help and yet in the parents mind though That's the way it is with us in trying to help people come to know the truth that is in Jesus that will set them free amen and I don't think we could learn a lesson even though we learn many good things and very many very valuable things in regard to doctrine and theology from one of The great

Christian heroes of the 20th century a w -pink Don't we think we need to also learn a lesson in a negative sense from him

That he as godly as he was and as much truth and wisdom as he had gleaned from Scripture he fell into a sin towards the end of his life where he

Thought so highly I think of his own understanding of Scripture that he isolated himself from the rest of the body of Christ that he

Basically it appears was viewing as in a hopeless state and That were they were so far

Delved into heresy that he didn't really want to have any communication with the larger body of Christ Isn't that something that we have to be very careful about and and do you think

I'm correct in the way of I've assessed pink's latter days Well, you know, that's a complicated issue.

I I Certainly would not commend What a WP did in his last years as I've come to understand it

However, I would commend Ian Murray's biography of a WP in which he takes a more charitable view of that Not justifying but sees it in a you know a gentler light perhaps or more loving light

But that is a danger is that we can begin to think we have nothing to learn from those with whom we disagree and Say that is arrogant and it doesn't feel arrogant

It doesn't feel prideful, but we can learn from people with whom we disagree

And so there's there's a there ought to be a humility and a willingness for us to look for ways to learn from it

I have friends who I know people who are Not committed to the sovereignty of God and salvation the way that I have that we would disagree on things

Like unconditional election, but they are joyful in the Lord.

They are humble They are self sacrificial in the way they live and I you know,

I can say I've prayed this I've told one brother. I'm thinking of now he's a pastor You know, whatever

God has given you I want to catch I want your spirit I want more of that in my own life because he loves people.

So well, I mean you just you can't be in his presence for Five minutes without sensing that he genuinely cares for you

And I want that and I can learn from him even though we disagree on other things

And so that's a we cut ourselves off from means of grace and in essence We begin to think that certain things in the

Bible no longer apply to us Because I don't see where the scripture gives us an out to just be live in isolation from other imperfect brothers and sisters yeah, and in fact,

I Have to admit that throughout my Christian life and I was saved in the 1980s.

I have met many people Who were outside of my theological circle?

Who Were far Superior to myself in in areas of life that are important and vital areas of life for Christians I mean and if we're gonna be honest there are going to be people outside of our orbit that are

Better husbands than we are. They're better Parents, they're better children.

They're better siblings. They're better citizens. They're better neighbors There there are all kinds of ways that we can learn from our brethren, even if we disagree with them theologically

Right, amen, and I God help us never to forget that The last thing you said

Tom got kind of muffled I didn't hear the last thing that you said Yeah, we just I wouldn't live in that light. I want to keep believing that Amen, and we're going to our final break right now and now's your opportunity

If you haven't already sent in a question I would strongly urge you to do so very quickly because we're rapidly running out of time

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We are now back with our discussion With dr. Tom Askell who is the executive director of founders ministries and senior pastor at Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida we are discussing letting truth offend without adding our own offensiveness and Our email address if you have a question is

Chris Arnsen at gmail .com Chris Arnsen at gmail .com

and please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA and dr.

Tom as the theme would indicate letting truth offend without adding our own offensiveness if you're speaking the truth from the scriptures and You're not offending anyone that really means that you're not speaking the truth from scriptures.

Am I right? Because It is offensive to Say to someone or to know for yourself that you are a sinner against God.

It is offensive It assaults my sense of personal worth and what we might call her

Self -esteem to know that the Bible judges me worthy of eternal damnation

Those are things that today Sound almost like what has been called hate speech. And so we we can't shy away from that We can't take the rough edges off of what

God says and yet we do talk about some of these things We need a way to strike the right tone about it as well.

Yeah, I would hate to preach on hell as if I Was rejoicing over the prospect of people going there.

I hope that when I preach on hell I will never stop short of saying anything Bible says

I hope I will always Have a sense of deep dread and burden and Sorrow at the prospect of anyone spending eternity

Yes, and in fact, I guess it perhaps I should rephrase something that I said is because you can preach or proclaim truths from the

Bible That may not be particularly offensive, but you can't be preaching the whole counsel of God and not be offensive

Well, that's right, yeah, that's right God has given us bad news as well as good Yes, and In fact,

I have heard people tell the truth But they diffuse the power of it by adding a certain words or phrases before or during or after I'll give you an example and I've mentioned this on this program before And I know that this may offend folks who really love the ministry of Billy Graham, but I can't help but be reminded of that prayer

Service that they had at the National Cathedral after 9 -11 and Billy Graham did preach the gospel or Proclaim the gospel at that gathering, but he diffused it of its power because he purposely

Diffused it of offensiveness to those who were not Christian Simply by saying before his message

Towards the end of the longer message he gave when he when he was getting down to the nitty -gritty of the gospel

He said prior to that now, this is for the Christians here today

This is for the Christians even just saying that put everybody else at ease because they were not being challenged to repent if they were

Hindu or Buddhist or Muslim or Roman Catholic or whatever background they were from This is now he's talking about the

Christian God So I don't have to listen to this anymore and they gave him a standing ovation. I Seriously doubt that they would have get that room would have given him a standing ovation

If he was challenging each and every person in that room to repent Right.

Yeah, that's that's a good point. I don't recall that Yeah, we can do that, you know, we can say something is true and then come back around and almost

Undermine the very truth that we've asserted Even today, you know the language that we're hearing and religious freedom debates

Has been hijacked by those that do not Appreciate religious freedom the way that I do and they've relegated it to the freedom of worship

You can do this in your own four walls and you Christians can get together and say and believe what you want to But for you to practice your religion that is to evangelize for you to make claims truth claims

That are universal that's something that shouldn't be allowed and we're seeing this more and more and it's tragic because What the

Bible teaches us what God has said is for everyone and to deny that is to deny our faith

Amen and We have a listener Let's see we have

Harrah, I'm sorry. We yeah, we have Harrison in Mechanicsburg Harrison to Mechanicsburg actually is asking about something that you and I briefly touched on before the show

Harrison says I Understand that there are appropriate times to have strong disagreements

Between those whom you love and whom you call your brother but don't you think that the divisions that have gone on for decades between those that are

Covenant Reformed Baptists and New Covenant Reformed Baptists or New Covenant Theology Baptists has

Going on much too far and the harshness and divisions have cut much too deeply

Chris unfortunately, I lost about 10 or 15 seconds of that question.

Would you my repeating it? Yeah, basically he was saying the the issue that we were even talking about earlier before the show

Well, you said that Richard Barcellos has a new book where he's ironic in regard to critiquing the

New Covenant Theology He was our listener Harrison in Mechanicsburg was saying don't you think that the divisions between?

Covenant Reformed Baptists and New Covenant Theology Baptists. Don't you think that these divisions have gotten too deep and heated and Mean -spirited basically is what he was saying

Yeah, well that certainly happened in some quarters and I'm glad to commend this new book that's releasing

It's actually November 1st is the official release date by Richard Barcellos that Founders Press has published called getting the garden right and this particular book is a critique of New Covenant Theology, which

Rich has done before in a book on The on the

Ten Commandments many many years ago that we published But this one is looking at Adam's work and God's rest in light of Christ And so he goes back to the garden says what was

God doing there? And what did he do for Adam and who was Adam and what are the implications for us today?

And he challenges in a very brotherly way. He challenges those

Who see these things differently that would be more in the New Covenant Theology camp to reconsider some things and I think he does it in a very effective way take some of their own exegesis and Ask them to own the implications of it.

That's the way that that brothers should Engage in theological dialogue.

I commend this book for its content But I commend it also for its spirit and even those who disagree with rich have expressed appreciation

For the way he's engaged this debate. Well, I've got to get rich back on the program to discuss this book at some point

Could you for the sake of our listeners who are scratching their heads and they have no clue what we're talking about Can you just give a brief summary of the divide between?

Reformed Covenantal Baptists and New Covenant Theology Baptists Well, and again that there are

There are different stripes on both sides of that issue. That's right Let me take let me tell you what

I think the nub of it is it comes down to the question It's does the Ten Commandments Abide for Christians today as a rule of life.

In other words, do we look to? What God revealed and it was inscribed by his finger on tablets of stone as an abiding

Way of life a way for us to live today who trust in Jesus Christ and are depending solely upon His grace for our right standing now, obviously there's more to it

But whenever you come down to the the debate and the issues they all seem to resolve around that and that even more finally

They seem to zero in on the fourth commandment and does the fourth commandment obtained for Christians today or Christians in any sense under an

Obligation to observe a Sabbath. Is there a one day in seven that God has called upon us to set aside or worship rest and anticipation of the

Eternal Sabbath that is coming that we have in Christ. So those are the issues the New Covenant guys would say no the

Ten Commandments as Ten Commandments do not obtain for us today as a rule of life and the

Covenant Baptists would say yes they do that we are still creatures made in God's image and Those commandments were written on the heart of Adam and they come to us from the

God who is the creator and we still See the goodness and wisdom of God not only their whiteness, but their goodness for us today and of course

Our brethren in the New Covenant theology camp one of the reasons they focus in on The fourth commandment is because they believe

Christ reiterated the other nine commandments in the New Covenant. So it's not like they're lawless they're not well, they're not really antinomian as some of our

Covenantal Reformed brethren have labeled them. They're not really antinomian because they don't believe in lawlessness

No, that's true and they would have friends who say, you know, I believe in the nine commandments not the ten commandments

And of course, there's a there's lots of exegetical issues that are involved in those kinds of statements and discussions there's implications that I would like to argue and do argue are necessary it seems to me but my friends on the other side say no

They're not necessary and I'm reading too much into their exegetical conclusion. So it's a it is a significant issue

I don't think it's something that we ought to pretend Is insignificant or unimportant for us to debate but man the debate needs to be carried out amongst brothers and that's what

Founders has by God's grace been able to do this book by rich The second one and this first one's in defense of the

Decalogue The second one is very ironic and warm -hearted as well as theologically and biblically rigorous so I think it is a it's a good combination of biblical systematic historical and polemical theology in a very pastoral

Framework and I commend it We have an anonymous listener who says

Do you think that there comes a time when folks who are surrounded by people who disagree?

Who continually keep the the flames? fanned when it comes to disagreement and bitterness and division and hostility that those brethren remove themselves from the company in a denominational sense as Is the situation with so many of our reform brethren in the

Southern Baptist denomination It almost seems like a hopeless cause when you are so outnumbered.

Do you think there is a realistic? Possibility that there will be not only acceptance universally amongst the

Southern Baptists of Calvinism But that there will be infinitely less hostility

Where the two forms of theology can coexist? well,

I know that heaven's going to be sweet because all of that will be Experienced in fullness there, but I can say that we've already seen that over the course of 30 -plus years and we've seen

Movement that direction for which I'm very very grateful So I have wonderful brothers and friends

I count dear friends within the SBC and we disagree on Some of these issues related to the doctrines of grace.

They wouldn't see things the way I do I don't see things the way they do and yet we have wonderful fraternal

Relationships and I'm I'm happy for that. I think there will always be those who are

Antagonistic, I think you've got within the SBC. I divide us up on this issue into four camps

You you've got the convictional Calvinists and then you've got those who are convictionally non

Calvinist I don't know what else to call them, but they just don't believe this. I don't see it but then you've got the

Calvinists who are angry about it and want to believe that if you're not a Calvinist that there's

Something suspect about you and that you ought to be it's not antagonized just all the time being

Corrected and then on the other end. You've got the anti Calvinists who? Almost wonder if you can be a faithful Christian and believe the doctrines of grace, and I think those two

Extremes are getting smaller that doesn't mean that they're any less loud, but I do believe that in terms of influence and Significance in the nominational life of the

SBC world that they are not what they once were and that those two who are closer each other the convictional non

Calvinist convictional Calvinist have found ways to cross bridges and to have real fellowship where we can real cooperation where we can on Kingdom matters and so I'm encouraged by that That's not to say that there wouldn't be a time for a person to leave an association of churches or certainly a church if this kind of antagonistic attitude prevailed that every church in the

Baptist world every Baptist Church is autonomous and so there's no reason for that to be the case in a local church, and then we freely cooperate and Associate with other

Baptist churches as we will be most glorifying to God so those associations are not coerced either

So we don't feel any violation of our conscience for our associations and you know taking it to perhaps a

Situation where the differences are even more extreme. I was wondering and I know that that you you can't give a cookie cutter answer

But I have friends and I've even interviewed men in ministry who are a among a tiny tiny minority of Bible believing evangelicals in a denomination that is largely apostate like I have

Friends in the United Methodist denomination who are pastors who are Bible believing evangelicals

I have friends in the PC USA Which is the most liberal of the Presbyterian denominations at least that I know of I have friends that are in the

American Baptist Association, which is the most liberal that I know of as far as Baptists are concerned and you could go on and on Do you and an

Episcopal? I have Episcopal Friends who are even Rectors who are full -blown

Calvinists Who are 39 articles men who really believe in historic?

Reformed Anglicanism and they remain within the Episcopal Church that believes in some very horrific and Heretical things.

Do you think that those folks should remain where they are at all? yeah, that is a pretty complex question and Before I could address any one of those situations

We'd have to talk about polity and what the polity of each one of those groups is and for the

Baptist I don't know why a church would remain within an association of churches that is officially formally and Argumentatively in favor of things that are contrary to the

Word of God and contrary to Biblical morality so but it's a church to do that and not

Violate itself as a church. I mean, it's autonomous. So Baptist churches are autonomous.

There's no denomination that Speaks down to a local congregation The local congregation is the chief seat of authority in any kind of Baptist ecclesial organization

That is not the case in a Methodist congregation or a Presbyterian congregation or an

Episcopal or Anglican Congregation. So in that sense, yes, that would be I could not stay and I would

I know there are good men who have in very difficult days It's something that I just couldn't do and I would question how others could do particularly when those groups have gone on record officially supporting some of the most vile and godless

Behavior and doctrines. So those are it's a polity comes in there pretty quickly and how

I would answer that question Yeah, and I know that our I don't know if you knew John Thornberry or no

John Thornberry But he was a dear brother in Christ or is a dear brother in Christ I just haven't had a lot of contact lately with him

But he remained in the American Baptist Church for a long time And then he finally said it just he just couldn't tolerate anymore and was able to have the church withdraw from that Denomination, but remember that I know

John and we talked about that in those early by early years of knowing him and listening to him in his

Rationale for staying in and it was very much from a Baptist conviction and I get that I understand

But I want to make sure that before we go off the air that you have five minutes of uninterrupted time to summarize

What you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners in regard to this topic today Well, I think it does boil down to Not ever selling short the truth

Including the truth that we are called to love and if we can keep those things straight

We're not going to go far wrong on one side or the other So the Bible was given to us from God.

God is the God of truth God is love and so we always have the obligation to love

We're called to love even our enemies and those who are in Christ are not our enemies.

They're our brothers So when we're engaging in differences with brothers and sisters in the faith

And we most certainly need to remember our responsibility to love I think another very important point in dealing with these kinds of Issues that can be so quick to give offense

We've got to remember that we are stewards of truth. We are not the originators of it.

So we don't have the right to to Soften the things that the Bible says

But we need to look for those areas where we can agree with brothers that we disagree with So for example, my

Arminian brothers, you know So easy to immediately gravitate to those differences that we hold and and they are important I'm not suggesting they're not but to forget then that we agree on the deity of Christ We agree on his bodily resurrection.

We agree On the Trinity of God and those are no small things. And so I want to Acknowledge agreement where I can even when we have to draw lines

Saying here we disagree and we can't we can't cross over and pretend like we're in unity on these issues if we can do that and maintain the kind of humility that becomes people who are created and Our image bearers of God who have fallen away from him and Understand that we do not have a corner on all the truth that there are

Gaps, there are holes in all of our theologies. We just don't know where they are Then that will help us

I think to contend for the truth without being contentious about it and I know that the

G3 conference is coming up where I already mentioned I intend to have an iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth

I know the umbrella theme. The main theme is knowing God a biblical understanding of discipleship has

Josh Bice assigned you with your topic yet, or have you chosen a topic yet for the g3?

Yeah, you know Josh and I were supposed to talk about it. We have it but what

I have been thinking Studying about that. I hope I'll be able to speak on is the fear of God in discipleship.

It seems that that's an area It's just been made prominent in my own thinking over the last couple of years especially here in the last few months and it is a

Significant component I think of healthy discipleship Great. Well, I want to repeat the information for those of our listeners who may want to attend the g3 conference is g3 conference calm g3 conference calm that's

January 17th for an exclusively Spanish speaking edition and January 18th through the 20th for an

English Speaking edition of the conference on knowing God a biblical understanding of discipleship.

And once again joining our guests. Dr Tom Askew at this conference are Stephen Lawson Vodie Balcom Phil Johnson Keith Getty HB Charles jr

Tim chalice Josh Bice James white Anthony Mathenia Michael Kruger David Miller Paul trip

Todd Friel Derek Thomas Martha peace and Justin Peters go to G3 conference calm

G3 conference calm and as I always try to remind you, please always

Mention Chris Arnzen and John iron trip and Zion radio when you take advantage of any of the things that we promote on This program.

I also want to make sure that our listeners have your website It's founders org as far as the founders ministries is concerned founders org and the website for Grace Baptist Church in Cape Coral, Florida is true grace of God org true grace of God Org, do you have any other?

Contact information you care to give or any other news that you want to give in regard to special events No, I think that's about it

Chris, you know, the new book by Rich is important and you can get that on the founders org website

We have a pre -publication sale going on right now. Actually, but those are the two places

I would direct people And the title again of Richard Barcello's book getting the garden, right?

Right getting the garden, right? That's it so you could go to the founders ministries website for that of founders org founders org and there is a

An option at the top to click. It's called store and You will find that book amongst many other items that you may wish to purchase

Dr. Askew, it's been such a pleasure having you on the program again I look forward to you return you returning soon and returning frequently and I can't wait to see you and hear you at the g3 conference coming up in January Thank you so much

Chris. It's always a joy to be with you So your ministry and all that you're doing for the kingdom.

Thank you very much for having me on oh, it's my pleasure brother, and I want to remind everybody about the The iron sharpens iron radio pastors lunch in this this

Thursday and as I mentioned earlier Since the venue is so large We do have room for all men in the iron sharpens iron listening audience who want to travel to Carlisle, Pennsylvania wherever you are and the dead the new deadline for registration is

Wednesday night the 25th of October the event is Thursday, October 26th 11 a .m.

To 2 p .m At the Carlisle fire -and -rescue banquet hall in Carlisle, Pennsylvania featuring guest speaker

Reverend William Shishko of the Orthodox Presbyterian denomination and we are also having as our guest of honor

Steve bloom Who is Pennsylvania state representative and candidate for Congress?

He is also an unwaveringly Committed Christian and whose friendship

I greatly value I hope that you can join us send me an email to Chris Arnsin at gmail .com

to register Chris Arnsin at gmail .com and I hope you all Always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far far greater

Savior than you are a sinner I look forward to hearing from you and your questions for our guests tomorrow on iron sharpens iron radio.