Show with Interviews from the 2019 G3 Conference Part 1: Sye Ten Bruggencate & Rich Pierce

Iron Sharpens Iron

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's iron sharpens iron This is a radio platform in which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation

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To make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host

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Chris Arnzen Good Afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida Champaign County, Illinois and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com You've probably realized by now.

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This is not Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio. Nevertheless I wish you all a happy Thursday on this 19th day of December 2019 my name is

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Eric Nielsen I serve as the webmaster for iron sharpens iron radio And I'm filling in as guest host while Chris is attending the foundations conference in New York City for the past few years in January I've had the opportunity to attend the g3 conference and man the iron sharpens iron radio booth along with Chris It's always a great time to meet the listeners of this show and to hear how

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God is using iron sharpens iron radio in their lives I'm planning to be there again this year

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Lord willing So I hope that you will stop by the booth and say hello to us and every year at the g3 conference

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Chris has taken the time to do several live interviews during the conference at the iron sharpens iron booth

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It's a really exciting dynamic with the noise of the conference in the background

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We are there face to face with men and women who were Passionate about the ministries that they are involved with and the way that the

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Lord is Using them this past January Chris did almost five hours of interviews people like site n

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Bruggen Kate rich Pierce of Alpha and Omega ministries Pastors Andrew Smith and Brian Fairchild Phil Johnson of grace to you

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Michael s Miller pastor Austin Huggins Andrew Rappaport and listener

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Darrell up dyke We hope to play several of these interviews over the next days in the first interview of the day

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Chris speaks with Christian apologist sigh ten Bruggen Kate Chris Arnzen of iron sharpens iron radio here again

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Doing another interview on site here at the iron sharpens iron radio exhibitors booth at the g3 conference in College Park, Georgia That's g3 2019 and I have returning as a guest the iron sharpens iron radio my friend

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Sai ten Bruggen Kate who has been on this program before Sai is the founder of absolute apologetics and he is well known in the apologetics community by anybody who's anybody as a champion of Presuppositional apologetics and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio

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Sai ten Bruggen Kate Oh brother. Thanks so very much for having me as you can see I'm losing my voice

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It's been a great time at this conference We've been talking to a lot of people and it was just wonderful to see you again, brother.

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Amen. Well the obvious question since it's been a while since you've been on the show and Presuppositional ism is not a term that Every Christian is going to understand and also

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I have people who are not even Christians who listen to the show, right? So why don't you define presuppositional apologetics?

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In fact, even if you want to start before that Define apologetics and then define

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Presuppositional apologetics comes from the Greek word apologia, which means to give a defense So if you're accused of a crime in ancient times and you're brought into court, you would give your apology it's not apologizing for you what you believe, but it's actually giving a defense of what you believe and The only way the best way

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I could that I could define Presuppositional apologetics is to give an example And I say if I am talking with an unbeliever and I would put a fossil between us for example then the unbeliever would look at that fossil and say well millions of years and The believer might look at that fossil and say

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Noah's flood the same evidence and we look at that You know You could have PhDs on both sides and one will conclude millions of years and the other one will conclude

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Noah's flood But it's the same evidence Why do we have different conclusions based on the same evidence and of course the person

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Assuming it's from Noah's flood would assume it's thousands of years ago, correct? Yes, so same evidence different conclusions

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Why not because of the evidence but because of the beliefs we take to the evidence our foundational beliefs our pre beliefs

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So our foundational beliefs are what we call our presuppositions So rather than examining the evidence, which we will interpret according to our pre beliefs

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I like to examine our pre beliefs and I say that without God you can't make sense of those beliefs

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Because the unbeliever wants to examine evidence to determine whether or not it's true and I would say fine

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Where do you get truth without God if we're just bags of advanced primordial slime? Where do you get truth and they'll say our brains are evolved meat computers, for example

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And they'll say that our thoughts are the byproduct of the electrical chemical processes in our evolved brains and Doug Wilson comes up the experiment

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It says if you took a bottle of Mountain Dew and a bottle of dr Pepper and you shook them and you open them they start to fizz Which of those fizzes would be true and of course neither would be true

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It's just fizz but according to the evolutionary theory the unbeliever must be fizzing atheistically and I'm fizzing

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Theistically and they want to say that my worldview is not true and I say where do you get truth from brain barf?

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Now the The the biggest competitor to Presuppositional ism is evidential ism and perhaps if you could define that well,

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I would say evidential ism would be using evidences and Arguments in order to prove to the person that God exists and of course my question that I've asked and probably previous on the show

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As well, where do you often hear evidences out in the world? You would hear the term evidence used in the court of law and I say in the court of law

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Who do you give evidence to you would give it to the judge or the judge and jury? So if an unbeliever comes up to you and says they don't believe in God or they believe in other

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God and we give them Evidences, who are we saying is the judge? We're saying that they are the judge and in what seat in that courtroom do we place the

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Lord of glory? We place him into the criminals box and we play God's defense attorney in their blasphemous courtroom

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And the problem is we can win that court case. God has given us wonderful evidences

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We can acquit God, but who's the judge and I think that's the great danger in Evidential apologetic because the

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Bible says everyone already knows that God exists Romans 1 so when somebody says to me I need evidence for God This is the question

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I asked them I say which evidence could convince you of the God who says you already have enough evidence, right?

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Well, I can recall I can recall years ago. I don't remember who it was, but a presuppositional list

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Apologist or maybe perhaps it might have even just been an ordinary Christian who was a presuppositional list, but he said everything is evidence

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Bonson said that he said we're the ultimate evidentialist because we don't say special evidences point to God We say you cannot make sense of evidence unless you start with God So we say all evidences are evidences of God But I would say that any argument which merely concludes

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God is not a Christian argument Because scripture says from him and through him and to him are all things

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So I say God is not a God you can reason to he's the God that you can't reason without Because we have logic we have science.

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We have morality. I say who owns all of this those things Jesus Christ owns them He is necessary for all of them

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And I'm not going to give those things to the unbeliever in order to argue against the Lord that I adore. I refuse now

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When you consider the fact that some of our brethren in Christ who even share our reformed theology

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And some of them are among the most brilliant of our reformed brothers

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RC Sproul for one John Gerstner for another of course they're both presupposition lists now

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But these are yes dear brothers when they were alive here on earth They were not only evidentialists they were anti Presuppositionalists and even wrote a book both together on That subject of opposing presuppositionalism well brother since we're on this show

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I'm going to give you an answer which I find quite ironic when I think of this answer because I've been asked this question before I think about you and your show

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Because Greg bonds actually debated RC Sproul And it's one of the most wonderful debates that I've heard because they both loved each other they both agreed on 95 % of what they believed, but they differed on Apologetic methodology, and I said that for me was the clearest example of wait for it iron sharpens iron

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You know and that's what I because if Greg Bonson agreed with everything that RC Sproul said what a dull conversation that would be

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Sadly somebody has to be wrong and of course you know I will gladly attest to who

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I believe was wrong in that debate and I encourage people to look up that debate Greg Bonson versus RC Sproul It was just a wonderful exchange now.

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Why does this even matter? I mean people will say that about a lot of things they will react to even the differences between Calvinists and Arminian right they may even go as far as to say

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What is the real big deal? about the Roman Catholic view of justification and the

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Reformers view in fact we know that there are people who say that because even people like Rick Warren Who is a

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Southern Baptist and a very? one of the top -selling Christian authors in the world

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Even he doesn't think that that is all that big of a deal the differences that we have Hank Hanegraaff from the

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Bible Answer Man Didn't think it was that big of a deal and still doesn't in fact convert it to Eastern Orthodoxy Norman Geisler doesn't really think the differences are a big deal, but of course

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I'm going Off track here. We're talking about presuppositionalism, but but people will think that that's even less of a reason to Write concerned about a difference that you have with a brother

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Well, why is it well my concern is that when I hear people arguing that way?

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I hear them arguing for a God that I don't believe in And I'm saying and I'm hopefully it's a guy that they don't believe in either because in church

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We will say nothing can separate me from the love of the Father Tears streaming down our face what a beautiful verse nothing could separate me from the love of the

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Father And then we go out into the world the next day we say I could be wrong But if I'm wrong I die rot in the ground worms eat my body if I'm right

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I get to go to heaven If you're right you die rot in the ground worms eat your body if you're wrong you go to hell What have you got to lose?

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The day before we're talking about a certainty of God nothing could separate me from the love of the Father the next day we go into The world and we say

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I could be wrong if you could be wrong You cannot say nothing could separate me from the love of the Father, and I encourage people to look at all the evidential arguments

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They're all probabilistic, and I don't believe I don't worship a probability I think can you imagine if somebody you know said that you know

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I have a wonderful loving relationship with my wife I'm just not sure she exists you'd have every right to question that person's relationship

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It's not their their sanity and so what I find is that people I when I debated that way when

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I talk that way I was talking about the God that the world wanted me to talk about they wanted me to talk about a probability

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They didn't want me to talk about the certainty And I think Christians sadly gravitate towards that because a probability is not offensive.

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Yeah in fact When I think about the most prominent Evident Evidential apologists today, and I don't want to name names because they're not here to defend themselves if they disagree with what

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I'm saying I'd love to have them on sometime to defend themselves. We should arraign that brother Yeah, I would love to but Very often their primary focus is to convince atheists not in Jesus Christ and his deity or the

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Trinity or or the salvation that he provided for his people on Calvary Through his shed blood and his bodily resurrection.

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It's typically just to prove to atheists that there is a God right and to me that's Well, so many pagans believe that there are many people in false religions that believe that there's that is no real

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Colossal achievement, but scripture says they know not that there's a God they know the

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God They have sufficient knowledge of the God for their condemnation So if we try and convince them that there's a

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God using their autonomous reason we've given up the very thing We're trying to prove that the reasoning is not autonomous that they need

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God for reasoning So we give up the argument at the outset We do it at a high at a very high price because if you convince them that a

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God exists They do it based on their authority and we're trying to convince them that they're not the authority

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And I say that's a huge problem because even if you win the argument you lose now How would you?

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Define what is taking place? At a debate for instance between our mutual friend and brother.

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Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries who is a self -professing Presuppositionalism so he's debating somebody like Bart Ehrman, right an agnostic on the reliability of the

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New Testament and Dr. White will use evidence right in that debate. He will bring up ancient manuscripts and he will discuss how

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That we have more evidence That the New Testament is authentic than we do any other written document in history even more it's we have more certainty or evidence that proves the reliability of the

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New Testament or the authenticity of the New Testament than we do of the works of Shakespeare and other things now, why

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Would a Presuppositionalist when he is housing having an exchange on that issue it's not on the existence of God or the person and work of Christ is on something like the

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Reliability of the New Testament. Why is that appropriate for him to be perhaps even using an overhead?

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PowerPoint or of course James would be laughing at me now because he uses something that's technologically light years beyond that already but I don't know the name of it, but Something that Mac created but what if he's using one of these visual presentations

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Proving certain things. How is that not a departure from presuppositions are

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Canadians allowed to take the fifth? Well, my point my point was where does this presuppositional ism

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Insists that we're not supposed to use evidence in every discussion with an unbeliever. No, absolutely not and First of all, you know that I love dr.

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White Yeah, I would consider my friend and he was here as well and I got to see him and you know I'm like a kid in a can so even seeing you face -to -face, you know

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I think it's really cool to be able to sit here because last time we did on the phone and of course I give a shout -out to my brother in Australia Alan who loves your show because I do a lot of these podcasts and Where we're in Australia, he's currently in Brisbane or I think near Brisbane.

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So Alan, how you doing? I have to give you a call sometime. Oh, but The thing is one of the things that Doc that dr.

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Bonsai will say that evidences are helpful in clearing away intellectual debris So some people have you know a certain issue about you know a certain aspect of scripture and you say look

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I will clear this away in order that we can get to a gospel presentation and You do that and then they say well, what about this one?

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What about this one? And I say at some point and here's part of the problem. I Maybe I shouldn't say problem.

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Dr. White is way smarter than me And the thing is he can answer those type of questions

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Whereas I can't so I would say that I am an ultimate pre supposition list because a lot of those answers

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I don't even know and I would say to a Bart Ehrman if you don't believe that the Bible is Authoritative by what authority are you going to claim that the

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Bible is not authoritative because it will have to be yourself So would I engage in a debate like that with Bart Ehrman?

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No, but I think it's wonderful also for Christians to see You know certain questions that are asked about scripture and how we might answer them

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But I don't think that's necessary for our salvation And I think that you know when somebody watches James White debate it gives them great confidence in scripture

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I think you know, it really bolsters their faith But I think a lot of people also say well I can't do that and they'll watch me are you know argue with somebody about the authority of scripture and say well

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I can do that. He's an idiot You know, so I think you know what? Dr. White does is something that I can't do and I think to the degree that I can do it.

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I think that I would probably not do it But I'm thankful for someone like dr. White because who do

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I go to if I have a question about scripture? I go to dr. White's work, you know, I go to You know like something like CARM for instance

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And I don't know we've been talking with them quite a bit over the last couple days and I say, you know Those are wonderful resources for Christians what

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I engage an unbeliever on that level, you know, probably not but I think next time

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You have dr. White on the show. You could say how that jives with the priest oppositionalism But as you know,

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I love him dearly I was in the studio but a little over a month ago and we had a great time together yeah, and another thing that just popped up in my head is if What it what it seems to be

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Indicating when a Presuppositionalist is showing evidence for some

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Exchange with somebody who disagrees with them It's usually to rebut or disprove a lie that's being told, you know

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Yes like for instance the most typical lie that I have heard from Roman Catholics in regard to patristics is that the

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Church father is unanimously consented on Everything that the Roman Catholic Church has dogmatically declared and teach right and that could be very easily

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Disproven exactly saying well, are you kidding me? I could show you volumes and they could break out the the writings of the church fathers and even write show them on a

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Screen for all to see that there are many things that the father is believed That Rome does not believe and there are many things that Rome's believes as dogma that the right that many of the church fathers

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Did not well One of the things that Bonson brought up in his uses of evidence is and I think this would apply to a dr

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White for example is to embarrass unbelievers with their ridiculous objections, right?

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Dr. White can do that. I can't You know, he can embarrass them with their ridiculous objections to certain elements of Scripture And I think that's a valid thing to do with unbelievers, and it's just something

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I can't do one of the things that I have personally found to be valuable in regard to presuppositional ism is if somebody is consistent in their approach, especially if you're

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Speaking to somebody who is your peer? And you're talking about things like God and salvation and the

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Bible It prevents and of course nothing when we who are

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Fallible sinful humans are doing anything We can't be be perfect and using the tools that we have to prevent something, but it is more likely to prevent

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Your opponent from dragging you into rabbit trails, right? Would you agree with that that that could be the death knell of nearly any conversation that we have with those who object?

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to Christianity it's typically when the person gets frustrated because the opponent wants you to Demands that you answer every question that they're throwing at you and they could be on a whole wide spectrum of things

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You know, what's very interesting and you'll see this knowing the industry that you're in. There are a lot of Evidential type apologetic radio shows.

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There aren't any presuppositional ones because the conversation is over very quickly Well, there have been but they don't last long because they

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I was on the radio show My friend was on the show the week prior and he was arguing, you know talking about certain

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Christian things from a more Evidential aspect all sorts of callers. I was on the same show the following week three hours

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Not one caller and the radio host was saying I don't know what's going on here Nobody's calling in and I said,

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I know what's going on They don't want to be the next one and it's not because I'm smart and that's what I tell people I'm a boiler operator by trade

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I'm a factory worker, but I argue from the truth of Scripture and that's why like I say There's not a not any that I know of presuppositional radio call -in shows because they dry up really quickly

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It's a radio show killer. But I mean your show is not one about apologetics It's you know, it's it's a totally different type of thing

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But I think you'll see that and if there's a presuppositional radio call -in show I'd like to know about it because I don't think there is one

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Wow Can you give us any updates on? either debates that you've recently had or Ones that you have in the works that are up -and -coming or anything else doesn't have to be a debate

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Well, I've been under a rock for a year and a half over personal things that we've talked about but that issue has since cleared up and I'm back in the game so to speak and I've been pretty active in the last few months

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But I've been really convicted over just the last few weeks to finally write my book And now that I'm saying on this show, you know, it's out in the public

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People have to hold me to it and please pray for me as well because I quit my job ten years ago to write a Book and I've discovered since then.

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I'm not a writer But I'm also very thankful I'm also very thankful that I didn't write it ten years ago

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I'm thankful that I didn't write it five years ago because it would have been entirely different to the book that I have a real Passion to write now

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So I've been on the road basically for the last 30 days and I was home only for a few days But when I get home, it's something that I really want to dig into and finally write that apologetics book

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And I have a few opportunities even being at the conference here A lot of people have asked me to come and speak and I've opportunity to go to Japan in April Which I'm really looking forward to so no debates on the horizon, but not a lot of people line up to debate presupposition

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It's the same thing with the radio show, you know, they don't want to be the next one No, when you say you were invited to Japan you were invited by a

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Christian group in Japan, too Well, there's a fellow who goes to the Apology of Church and he's a baseball player in Japan and I had a wonderful Talk with him and he's invited me to come there and No, he's an

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American fellow. Yes, he used to play. They do import a lot of he played in the major leagues in North America and now he's

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He's very popular in Japan and he has opportunities to share the gospel in Japan that missionaries who have been there for 30 years don't have and even before I met this gentleman,

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I've had a passion to actually talk to Professional athletes because they're the type of people who will get some pardon the expression snot nose atheistic reporters to stick a microphone in their face to try to get them to look like an idiot and they normally succeed and I want to encourage people to argue to defend their faith in a powerful biblical fashion

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And so I have a real passion and I'm not talking about this gentleman in particular But just in general to reach people at that point who normally don't get people to talk straight with them because of who they are you know, and you know,

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I Don't care who a person is. I will tell them the truth in love and I hope that people will really

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Gravitate to that and one of the things I loved also doing was prison ministry in prison ministry People don't have anything to lose and you could tell it to him straight and you know

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I found that they eat it up and I've not done that with professional athletes but it's something that I would love to do because I think that they also have people that don't tell it to him straight and I mean anybody who's familiar with my work will know that I'm not afraid to tell it to people straight

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Amen. One of the reasons why I was pleasantly surprised to hear about your invitation to Japan is

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That I can recall on The old iron sharpens iron radio program out of New York When I'm New York, I got an email from a

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Japanese woman after my interview With a friend of mine who is one of the few

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Christian experts that I've ever met that has a thorough knowledge of the

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Unification Church and This woman was thanking me for having this interview because it just was an extraordinary blessing to her because she was in that call to the

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Mooney's as they're right now and She became a born -again believer.

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In fact, she became a born -again believer through James White's ministry. I don't even know if he knows but she was

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Devastated and depressed because she could not find any church Anywhere remotely near her that was not a

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Roman Catholic Church to join and to become a member and to worship

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Christ and so on and she told me in the letter that less than 1 % of Population of Japan is

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Christian. That's correct And that's one of the reasons I desired to go there and I've been studying the culture a little bit

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It's been very fascinating because they're very kind people and they don't like controversy So you and I heard

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I was talking to a Japanese missionary who came to visit my church and he was sharing the gospel with people on the train and they agreed with everything he said

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Even to the point of saying that they accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior They agreed to it because they did not want to be controversial and of course the minute he walked out of their presence

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They would have rejected everything. So I want to go there and by the grace of God, hopefully, you know blow it up You know, of course,

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I don't want people to think you know It not not literally but I want to go there and tell them I'm didn't come here to share my opinion

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I came here to give you the truth and I'm thinking of writing a gospel track. This is 2 plus 2 equals 5

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I say would you accept this if you go to a bank and ask for change for a thousand yen and they give you three

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Pennies or whatever the equivalent is you would not you know at that point you would stick on an absolute you would say no

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That is incorrect. And I say well, this is much more important than change in a bank This is where you will spend your eternal destiny

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But the thing is, you know, I've talked to some dear brothers as well and they say we have to respect You know their desire not to be confrontational and thank them for it and congratulate them on it

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However say at this point if you agree with me simply to agree Then you're doing me a disservice and you're doing

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God a disservice You need to examine this and you need to put your trust in Jesus Christ before it's too late. And that's a certainty

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It's not my opinion I'd like you to list some things that you have available resources that you either personally created or or or on or are involved in Or just things that you just strongly recommend

28:05

Well people can visit my website which is proof that God exists with an s proof that God exists org

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And you can see on the front page There's links to two films that we've done how to answer the fool is one of them

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Another one is a debating Dillahunty which is a documentary on a debate that I did with a fellow named Matt Dillahunty a pretty

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Prominent atheist and if you go to the multimedia section there there are probably hundreds if not thousands of hours of me engaging people on the streets from hopefully a biblical presuppositional method and you know, people can check those out and Hopefully be edified them by them

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And like I say, there's also a recommended books page where I encourage people to go and pick up books that I haven't written

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But I hope that by the end of this year that will change and they'll I'll be able to recommend the book that I've written

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We need to take a short break to hear from the sponsors who make iron sharpens iron radio possible

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We will be right back with psi 10 bruggen Kate The Sarns and host of iron sharpens iron radio here.

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I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan, but if you go

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Dan, but a few goes number is 1 800 6 6 9 4 8 7 8 1 800 6 6 9 4 8 7 8 or email me for Dan's contact information at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

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That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com I'm James White of Alton Omega ministries and my friend

30:51

Chris Arnzen and I are excited to be attending another g3 Conference together in Atlanta, Georgia Thursday, January 16th through Saturday, January 18th on a theme

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That is vitally important to all of us worship matters I'll be on the speaking line up with Eric Thomas Joel Beakey Paul Washer Steve Lawson Phil Johnson Tom Askew Votie Balcombe and the world -renowned preacher teacher and author

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John MacArthur a Fascinating new addition to the roster is Kosti Hinn nephew of the notorious false teacher

31:21

Benny Hinn Kosti has repented the word -faith heresies of his youth and is now a reformed

31:26

Baptist pastor and cessationist in California Come join me and Chris Arnzen at g3 2020

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January 16th through the 18th in Atlanta by registering at g3 conference calm

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That's g3 conference calm. See you there When I in sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the

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Augustine, Florida and the NASB is my Bible of choice I'm pastor

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Clint lighter Chapel Sedalia, Missouri, and the NASB is my

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That's NAS Bible comm to place you You Welcome back to iron sharpens iron radio.

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We now continue with Chris's interviews from the 2019 g3 conference he is speaking to Psy 10

33:40

Bruggen Kate before we go and we'll have you repeat your website again at the end But I would like you to I know this might be somewhat difficult to to Encapsulate a dialogue that demonstrates presuppositionalism

34:00

But and I know that conversations can vary amongst people, but I think that very often there are repeated

34:09

Arguments that are typical when you strike up a conversation with your average American or North American in your case a

34:17

Canadian Who has been brainwashed by liberalism especially right there are?

34:23

often regurgitated ridiculous Comments that are made and I should maybe perhaps

34:31

I shouldn't have said that they're not all ridiculous. There are people who have genuine Questions about things that they are baffled by so I don't want to say that they're all ridiculous but if you could just briefly give us a run -through of a conversation perhaps like you meeting somebody on a train or Anywhere else in a restaurant perhaps a number of years ago

34:54

I did some evangelism with living waters Ray Comfort's group there And we have said an ambassadors Academy and there was about 50 of us evangelists on a bus and we went to Newport Beach and You know people are surprised to hear that I'm an introvert, but I am rather introverted

35:09

I don't really like crowds And I was the first off the bus and I walked away from the crowd of evangelists who are about to share their faith

35:16

And this fellow came up to me on his bicycle. He was in his 50s What's going on over there? I don't know a bunch of crazy

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Christians sharing their faith or something. I don't know And he says, oh, no, I said, yeah, I'm one of them

35:30

And he did exactly that he started to laugh it was a wonderful icebreaker and then he said to me Two of my brothers committed suicide.

35:37

He got real serious. He said I shook my fist at God. I hated God I swore at God and then

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I concluded there could be no God No, God would take my brothers and then he showed me the book a book that he purchased a few days before at the dollar store

35:51

It was a book on Hinduism is in the basket of his bicycle and he opened it and he showed me there was underlined

35:57

It was dog -eared. He was loving this Hinduism He was loving this Brahma and this oneness of being and he said to me.

36:03

What do you think of Hinduism? And Hinduism is one of the easiest religions to logically refute, but I didn't

36:10

I said tell me sir Is that the God you're mad at when your brothers committed suicide? And you know what?

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He said to me Nothing, he started weeping People do not go to other religions to find the truth

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They go to other religions to run away from the God that took their brothers and I think that's you know It's a very simple discussion.

36:30

I've been training this woman in Pennsylvania and it's happened to her twice She does street evangelism a person would come up to her and say

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I'm an atheist and she says no you're not And they drop their heads, you know a lot of times

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I'll admit that they're not they might not admit it But it doesn't matter we speak the truth to them in love and that's why we say it's a reformed apologetic

36:47

Because there's two types of people in this world. There's goats and there's sheep and nowhere in Scripture Does it say goats become sheep?

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Jesus said my sheep hear my voice So we need to give people sheep food and the problem is that the world rejects cheap sheep food

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So what do most Christians do here? Let me give you some goat food No, we keep presenting the truth of the gospel to them

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Jesus said I will give you words and wisdom that your adversaries will not be able to resist or contradict Luke 21 15

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And I say I know why you've asked me to come and speak at a conference because in John 10 27 Jesus said my sheep here sighs really good argument.

37:21

He said my sheep hear my voice and Brothers and sisters we need to get back to that We need to study our

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Bibles and we need to answer people with the truth of Scripture because that's what God uses to convert people And that's basically presuppositional ism in a nutshell

37:36

Amen, well, perhaps if you could Before we go and before you repeat your website if you could

37:44

Respond as a good Presuppositionalist to the age -old question. That is probably the most often asked questions by those who are either

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Atheists agnostics or perhaps they just have a very twisted religion that has some kind of Belief in a superior deity, but it's not the

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God that we know in the scriptures, but they will say And it it's it's somewhat hinges on the conversation that you just Gave us as an example, but the specific question is

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How could there be a God of love? Who? Permits the kind of evil things that we see in the world every day.

38:31

You see as a presuppositionalist I look at what the person's standing on So they will say how can there be a

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God who would allow the evil that we see today? And I look at what they're standing on that question assumes that they believe in something called evil

38:46

And I say if you're just a bag of evolved pond scum What is evil?

38:52

Because what one bag of evolved pond scum does to another bag of evolved pond scum is totally irrelevant

38:58

I say in order to know what evil is you have to have an absolute standard of good and evil and you can't have that Without God, so when you complain about evil

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You're already borrowing from the God that you know exists in order to call something evil

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So I'll look at their foundation, and I'll remove it from them. I'll say where do you get evil without God? I'll be happy to talk about you know if believers

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This is a discussion to have with believers because I try and reconcile how bad things happen in the in it with a good

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God who has ordained these things to happen, but I say if you're not a believer. There's no such thing as evil There's no problem of evil to an unbeliever because there's no such thing as evil to an unbeliever if Morality can be stipulated which is the atheistic worldview?

39:40

Why can't anybody stipulate their own and say well what you call evil I call good so the very question

39:46

Presupposes God and that's the God that I believe in I'm not gonna put him on trial I'm gonna say if you want an answer to that question fine.

39:52

You have to become a Christian Well it happened if we remove evil from the equation and We refer to things that are called even by weathermen and anchormen on news reports secular news programs

40:06

They're called acts of God right people who are People who die in the thousands perhaps on some occasions millions

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From horrific things that occur like floods fires earthquakes tornadoes

40:20

You could go on and on or disease Something that is you know morally neutral you know a disease is not a good or an evil thing

40:30

It's just it's just a thing that that can harm or kill people How do you respond to the person who says how could there be a loving

40:39

God that permits such? Sadness in this world that that that is the that comes in the aftermath of the loss of life

40:49

Through disease and these acts of nature or God as they may be called right well

40:54

There's quite simply moving the goalposts. I say well. What's wrong with any of those things an atheistic world.

41:00

What's wrong with that? What's wrong with acts of nature in which people die? What's wrong with that, but you know to a

41:06

Christian? I say we live in a fallen world These are results of the fall and you know the thing is it depends on because it's not a cookie cutter approach because people will

41:14

Approach me with all sorts they might have a genuine question as to why there's evil in the world right by any means and I might tell them a story like this

41:21

I'll say would it be evil for a man to stick a knife into the chest of a three -year -old girl And they say oh yeah, that would be evil saying to give you a little bit more information this girl

41:30

She's a heart defect She's gonna be dead in a week if she doesn't have surgery But she lives in a country where they have to pay for the surgery and they can't afford it

41:37

So this girl is gonna die the mother goes on national TV says I need help My daughter will be dead in a week if she doesn't have this surgery a world -famous heart surgeon sees that from you know

41:47

Half a world away says I'm gonna do this surgery Pays for the flight to fly this girl to his hometown

41:53

Pays for the hospital room pays for the attendance this girl is on an operating table under anesthetic and the knife

41:59

He's about to stick in their chest is a scalpel. He's about to save her life I say is that man evil and they say now it's the most loving thing you could do

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I said 30 seconds ago You told me he was evil What's the difference the difference is now you have all the information

42:12

I say who has all the information I say God has all the information So when I see even natural disasters

42:18

I trust in a God who works all things for the good of those who love him I say what better reason than to put your trust in a

42:26

God like that to know that even the garbage that happens in your Life has a purpose for good for those who love him and I trust them because I've had things happen in my life

42:34

Even the thing that I was talking about the last year and a half I watched my father rot away for seven years from adult diabetes lose both his legs

42:41

And I went to I remember the day that he died I was in the funeral home And I said you know in a way I'm glad my father's gone because he was in a lot of pain and The woman said my mother had eight brain tumors, and I was glad to see her go to I said

42:54

Oh, you don't understand if my father wasn't a believer I'd I'd want him to live forever in that agony rather than died good and go to hell

43:02

But I don't know why my father experienced this pain, but I trust God and you know what so did my father

43:07

And I know that he's with him today, and that's a beautiful thing so why is there evil I give them the same answer that God gave to Job Where were you

43:16

Job when I created the universe where were you Job? He goes on and on for two chapters, and what does Job do he put his hand in front of his mouth?

43:22

I spoke too soon so in in the ultimate sense I don't know why there's evil, but God does and I trust him

43:29

Amen one final question that popped into my head that I didn't even think of earlier is

43:37

Presuppositionalism to your knowledge anyway the exclusive property of Christianity are there any other worldviews religions or even just secular humanism where you have some apologists or representative of those

43:56

Non biblical worldviews non Christian views who are actually utilizing Presuppositional methodology, you know

44:04

I've heard that there are some but people also say well, okay You have a presuppositional view, but how do you know that it goes to the

44:11

God of the Bible? I say you don't understand what I'm saying. I'm a presuppositionist. I do not merely conclude the

44:18

God of the Bible I start with the God of the Bible now. There are other world worldviews like Islam. I've heard that there have been

44:25

Muslim presuppositions I've never run into one but then I would go again to their presupposition and I would show how their presupposition actually assumes the truth of my

44:34

Presupposition and if you go to my website you could see how we deal with Muslims for instance But I would say to the Muslim What does the

44:39

Quran say about the Bible a lot of Muslims don't know that but the but the Quran says that the Bible is A previous revelation of Allah.

44:46

That's right. They say it's the Word of God and I say well Why don't you believe the Bible today? They say well, it's been corrupted

44:51

Really what does your Quran say about whether the words of God can be corrupted right? They say it can't

44:57

I said so you got a big problem because if the Quran is true, the Bible is true and because the Bible is true the

45:03

Quran is false and That's how I address something like that, but you don't even have to get that philosophical

45:08

Everybody should be able to do that. So I really have a two -step approach when it comes to any objection That's not what the

45:14

Bible says. That's not what the Bible says. That's not what the Bible I don't believe your Bible You don't believe it's true step two where to get truth without God and if the

45:24

Muslim says the Quran that I might so what's the currency about the Bible and just expose the emptiness of their presupposition now

45:31

I'm assuming that You would object to the non presuppositional as to may

45:39

Mock your approach or at least disagree with it Who says that we can't?

45:46

With integrity defend something if we start with the notion that I Believe this just because I believe it and there is no

45:59

Evidence that I can use to prove it to you But I'm just saying that I believe it and I know because of my

46:05

Bible that you believe it, too right, and they may think that that's just this maybe circular reasoning or just nonsensical or just something that lacks integrity because you could have

46:16

You know silly answers from all kinds of religious people as to why they believe things like for instance you may have a

46:25

Mormon who just says that you know I believe in the book of Mormon because I believe in it and I had the burning in my bosom

46:31

So I know it's true right and that kind of thing Well people a lot of people who object to this supposed circularity of presuppositional ism

46:39

Is they don't see the circularity of their own position because there's a very famous Apologist and I have a clip of him in how to answer the fool where he's doing a class on apologetics

46:48

And he says to the crowd what can you not use to prove that the Bible is true? And they all yell out the

46:53

Bible So I'll go to a conference and I'll stand on the stage and I'll say what if I said to you I was the strongest man in the world.

46:59

I said you might have suspected it already by looking at my physique What if I said I was the strongest man in the world and I said to you

47:06

What can I not use to prove that I'm the strongest man in the world your strength? That would be absurd if I was the strongest man in the world

47:13

I must use my strength or the claim would be false. So you're saying that a Christian events Christians are

47:20

Expecting the answer the Bible is false, right? But the thing is we are not saying the

47:26

Bible is true because the Bible is true But the thing is that the ultimate truth must claim to be true But what

47:31

I'm saying as a Christian reject this one and your world is absurd So I'm not merely saying the

47:36

Bible is true because it claims to be true which it must as an ultimate authority But I'm saying if you reject this one your worldview is absurd and I'll be happy to show you how that's the case

47:45

No, but perhaps he misunderstood my question or perhaps I misunderstood what you said, but our Christians at events

47:53

Saying that you cannot use the Bible to prove the Bible is true how to answer the fool check it out It's a it's a clip in the film where he says what can

48:00

I not use to prove? He's a Christian who says yeah, well you could I don't know why I want to mention his name Sean Sean McDowell.

48:08

Oh, wow. Yeah, what can I not use to prove that the Bible is true and the crowd yells out the Bible Oh, that's that's said here because I know that at least on one occasion

48:16

James White was very impressed with Sean about something I can't remember what it was. Can I take the fifth again?

48:25

Dr. White we need to talk. Well, perhaps it was something that had nothing to do with anything that you would disagree with That could very well be well one thing

48:34

I need I think that we read by the way I'm not saying that he is applauding everything. No, or even knows much about Sean McDowell He said that I can't do you remember

48:43

Eric? there was some kind of an event that or something that Sean McDowell was responding to in the media and James was taken aback that he agreed with everything.

48:52

He said that particular right? But one thing I think that is the son of Josh McDowell, right?

48:59

Yeah, but one thing I think is really important to it and you'll notice at an event like this I think there's too much animosity between camps and what we have to recognize that if I have the proper view of apologetics

49:09

What do I have that I've not been given first Corinthians 4 7 how dare I lord it over someone else? I think it's best for me to come alongside them and maybe come on your show and talk about it in a loving fashion

49:19

Because what do we have that we've not been given and I think dr. White is very well aware of that too from some of The stances he's taken the type of opposition

49:25

He's gotten from people who claim to be brothers and I think that needs to stop I think we need to love each other sit down and look at Scripture as our ultimate authority to see which is the biblical the

49:35

God honoring methodology for defending our faith and it is is actually jaw Dropping Lee amazing that a

49:41

Christian would say that we can't use the Bible to prove the Bible is true when it robs the

49:51

God -breathed words of Scripture From their supernatural and miraculous power and I don't mean this of course like the word of faith

50:02

Movement uses it using the words of the Bible or even just words that they think are

50:10

Compatible with the Bible as like a spell or a magic You know proclamation to change something but there is a

50:19

Supernatural powerful supernatural element, especially we as Calvinists know this that God uses these words that he has breathed to remove hearts of stone out of lost sinners and replace them with hearts of flesh and and To open the eyes of the blind and unstop the ears of the deaf unlike some of our hyper

50:41

Calvinist friends who Insist that God does not use means right to regenerate

50:49

Right dead lost sinners. We who are historically faithful to what?

50:54

Calvinism and its majority has always taught and of course much more than that with the Bible teaches We believe that there is a supernatural thing that happens with the

51:03

Word of God when we right claim it, right? Yeah, one thing people of people who are anti Calvinistic for instance.

51:09

They say why do you share the gospel? Why do you proclaim the truth to people of God has ordained where they're going to end up and I say well

51:16

Does God know if you're gonna have a full stomach tonight? They say of course he does I say why do you eat? Because God ordains the means as well as the ends

51:24

But yes as far as you know using the Bible, this is one of the analogies I use in my talks I say what if I said to you that I had the fastest truck in the world and I was gonna prove it to you

51:34

By towing it down the racetrack you would say net tow truck faster Somebody wants to prove the authority of Scripture and they want to use something else to do it and I'll say fine you do that What's your authority now?

51:50

It's not script, right? It's that thing that proved it and I say then if you use something else to prove that that Bible is the ultimate authority

51:56

You've disproven your very thing. You're trying to prove and it actually is even if it's an unconscious effort.

52:03

It's It's an effort to prove that your power of persuasion or your intellect or your oratory gifts

52:11

What are more important? Than the scriptures. I can even remember working for a radio network for 15 years where at least one of the popular national talk show hosts

52:25

Had a rule for his live call -in show You could not quote the scripture and he did not use the scripture to answer questions and he said

52:36

That is a cop -out because it proves that Christians are too stupid to think for themselves, right?

52:43

No, I think that there is wisdom and not relying upon your own wisdom But can you imagine if that person said, okay, you're the strongest man in the world and I want you to prove it

52:54

But you cannot use your strength. You'd say that was absurd. Why do Christians accept that when they say the same thing about the

53:00

Bible? Yes, it's crazy. Yeah, it is insane. Well, I'd like you know So I to give again repeat all of the contact information that our listeners need to Get a hold of you to get a hold of your resources and prove that dates proof that God exists org

53:17

God exists .org. Yes, that's my website and they can contact me through that and if they want to have me come out and speak now

53:24

That I'm doing this again full -time. I would love to come out and and speak to your church or small group

53:30

I do have to tell people that I do have a minimum audience requirement of one Well, I really appreciate you taking the time to return to our chirping

53:43

Zion radio as our guest this time face -to -face I'm so delighted about that I look forward to seeing you the next time

53:49

Whether it be a conference or other gathering and hopefully the next time where you are one of the speakers yourself

53:55

Well, thanks very much for having me brother And you know, I love you and my brother in Australia loves you And I think you're reaching a lot of people with this show and I really thank

54:03

God for that And I thank God for you. Thank you very much brother. Thank you, brother James right about to make ministries here if you've watched my dividing line webcast often enough

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Or go to batterydepot .com. That's batterydepot .com. Welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:05:12

I'm your substitute host, Eric Nielsen. Today we are listening to interviews from the 2019

01:05:20

G3 conference. The next interview that we will be playing is an interview with Rich Pierce of Alpha and Omega Ministries who works with Dr.

01:05:31

James White. Well, it's my third interview on site here at the

01:05:37

G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia, College Park to be more precise and I am thrilled to have returning to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio for the second time

01:05:48

Rich Pierce, who is the president of Alpha and Omega Ministries, a man without whose efforts and labors

01:05:57

I'm sure even Dr. James R. White would agree that ministry would crumble in a heap of ashes.

01:06:05

He is definitely just like my dear friend who was just sitting next to me a second ago.

01:06:11

He had to get up and do something that I'm not aware of, but Eric Nielsen, the webmaster of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I could not possibly conduct a daily program and have the programs available to the public in an archived fashion and all that.

01:06:31

I could not do that without Eric's help, which he does on a voluntary basis, and I thank God for him.

01:06:36

But Rich Pierce, it's such a joy to have you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Thank you, Chris. It's good to be here.

01:06:42

For those very few people who listen to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio who might not be aware of Alpha and Omega Ministries, why don't you give a summary description of that ministry?

01:06:54

Oh goodness. We are at the core a Christian apologetics ministry, but at the same time over the years what started out in 1983 as a ministry to reach out to Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses eventually brought in Roman Catholicism a few years later and would eventually become where we had to describe it differently and the description became theology and apologetics and now it's a lot more than just that.

01:07:30

It's teaching, it's theology, it's apologetics, it's a defense of the faith on every aspect of the faith and we have found ourselves over the last several years dealing with topics and subjects that I don't think we would have imagined in the early days and James is as you know has taken on Islam in the last 10 years when you and I met the vast majority of information that we had on our website on our

01:08:08

I mean you may not know this you know we got on the internet in late 1995 Wow 1995 before the

01:08:15

Wayback Machine tracks before it came along we were on the internet and so we go way back in that regard but the focus was

01:08:28

Roman Catholicism It really became the central thing and of all the audiophiles of all the debates that we had had which again you go back to our trips to Salt Lake City and it became this routine in Salt Lake City where we would somehow find ourselves

01:08:46

James on KTKK radio in Salt Lake City crammed in this tiny little room with three or four

01:08:53

Mormons all in the air no air conditioning and it's two or three on one in that environment let alone the callers and That's really kind of where a lot of this started and then

01:09:06

Doing debates after that we started incorporating debates with with Mormons and Then Roman Catholicism came into the picture they added the privilege of for a decade arranging many of those debates that dr.

01:09:21

White had with Roman Catholic, but but the roots of that go back to well the the fall of 1990 or these the the summer of 1990 and then

01:09:32

December 1990 James would have had which would be the two debates

01:09:38

That are really the the oldest in our archives, and that was the debates with Jerry Matitick's in Phoenix he was with Catholic answers at the time and That was really

01:09:49

I think the the launching pad in not only the debates, but our ministry to Roman Catholicism and what would snowball into eventually the great debate series coming along and then somewhere along the line

01:10:05

In the late 2000s James just decided that he wanted to start looking at Islam One of the things that strikes me is

01:10:19

James is one of these guys he makes it he makes very hard work look easy He really does and I have had a number of folks ask me.

01:10:28

You know what James is out of town he's gonna be traveling for the next two weeks and We're gonna be silent. I don't

01:10:33

I don't have dividing lines to do and When he's out of town People will say well

01:10:39

Why don't you just jump in there rich? You did the review on latent flowers in the Roman Romans 9 debate which actually was a review of the whole debate not just latent flowers but What you've got to understand is where James can come in sit down in front of a microphone and hit the ground running

01:10:57

It takes me weeks of preparation and even with that. I can't measure up to his

01:11:03

Abilities and standards I just do my best and try to represent the ministry well but He when he gets into a subject

01:11:14

What gets him to the point where he can do that is he pours himself into that subject?

01:11:19

He doesn't just lightly study it. He doesn't Okay, so and so has written a book on that subject

01:11:26

So I'll go read their book and now I know what I need to know No, he has to go to original sources, and he gets up to his elbows in it studies it out and formulates an apologetic all of this is driven through the ability that seems to be

01:11:44

Lost on our land and it's not just in the Christian Church It is in our nation 10 -15 years ago.

01:11:50

We kept talking about the phrase the dumbing down of America It was real it was true, and we're now reaping the results of that where you you have what

01:12:01

I call an explosion of ignorance all around us and you wonder how in the world people so many people can be thinking so disconnected from reality and it's because they have lost touch with the simple concept of critical thinking and It is the fact that he is such a critical thinker

01:12:25

That he sets a high standard for himself and he sits down and he wrestles with these things and he critically works his way through it and then formulates a critical

01:12:36

Apologetic it it it amazes me when I hear people talk about James being a meanie, right?

01:12:46

Because the the problem is is that I we all see mean people

01:12:52

We know what a mean person is and the concept of ad hominem argumentation

01:13:00

Is really a dodge. It's not being mean, but then there are those who were just plain mean

01:13:06

Bomb -throwers we call them people who just want to make the other guy look as bad as possible

01:13:14

James isn't that guy right James? Because he takes a subject on and does critical thinking through it and then walks his audience through that in Such a way and again if you read his books the

01:13:28

King James only Controversy if you read the Potter's freedom if you read all these different books that he's written James is able to take complex theological concepts that normally live in a place that's known as the ivory tower and Scholar a chats with scholar

01:13:44

B, and they use really big words with one another and James can do that.

01:13:51

He doesn't have an interest in doing it He wants to be able to take those concepts and bring them to the average

01:13:58

Christian the common man who like me Is blue -collar and I don't have the education not even close that he has but yet I can read one of his books

01:14:09

I can listen to him on air and I can and I can comprehend the need for the rebuke

01:14:16

That's not being mean there are times when that's very called for and it's necessary And it's far too.

01:14:22

It's too far between those times that our leaders in this day and age resort to that But at the same time

01:14:32

James has the ability to take that complex subject and bring it not down but bring it in such a way that you and I can understand it on a peer level with him and That's what makes his his work so unique So he does the critical thinking thing and then he brings us along with him in that process

01:14:55

Not only in his debates in his teaching a couple of well Last Friday no two

01:15:02

Fridays ago. We had James We did a dividing line where he is teaching on The TR from Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary, you know in in Kentucky textus receptus

01:15:17

Yeah, and he's going through the textus receptus stuff. I Don't think we have enough of James in the classroom on video

01:15:26

We need a lot more of James in the classroom and technology has brought us to a place where we could actually do something

01:15:33

Really amazing and here we have Owensboro, Kentucky in a classroom and they could turn a camera on actually two cameras from what

01:15:40

I could tell okay, and get the audio and pipe it out to me in Phoenix, Arizona and I can put that out to YouTube in a dividing line format.

01:15:54

I Just think that's amazing But that's James in the classroom too, right people need to understand they think you know this guy

01:16:03

He's just so deep. He's just so his head's so big. It's not He has the ability to take the the complex and bring it bring us all along with him is the best way

01:16:16

I can say it and It seems like the time before we talked I had my current stumping blocks

01:16:23

And this is my stumping block this time around and that is the concept of critical thinking

01:16:30

Now I'm gonna I'm gonna really throw you here Chris because I'm gonna use it a name that I'm I Like it or not.

01:16:41

I've gotten rather tied to and that is dr. Layton flowers Okay, I Reviewed the

01:16:48

Romans 9 debate and I read if you go back and listen I reviewed the whole debate There was a couple of times where I even pointed

01:16:55

James could have done this and James could have done that along the way Yeah, I'm one -sided I get that and Layton flowers is a and I guess he could be accurately described as an anti Calvinist Southern Baptist sure, but I'd rather not okay, okay?

01:17:09

I I want to what dr. Flowers I think failed to grasp in that Review was my bigger picture a reason for reviewing it and That is

01:17:24

I think we can do better. I Think dr. Flowers can do better I think he could have done a lot better in what he did in that debate

01:17:32

And he should have done a lot better in what he did in that debate. I'm looking at the work product

01:17:38

I come from that old -fashioned background where you roll up your sleeves and you do the hard work

01:17:46

Okay, and like I said, I'm that blue -collar guy. I know how to swing a hammer

01:17:51

I know how to do the the heavy lifting and you got to do it And you got to do it right and especially if what if somebody else is gonna come and check your work afterwards

01:18:00

You better do it right the work product shows up in the result and the the problem with What dr.

01:18:11

Flowers did there in response to me? He got really upset with me, and how

01:18:16

I was handling his work product, and he took it personally That's my review of his response

01:18:23

I think he took it personally and because he took it personally He couldn't see the fact that I kept pointing to one simple concept

01:18:31

The way that you handle the scriptures is a reflection of how you view the scriptures

01:18:40

I'll say it again the way in which you handle the scriptures is a reflection of how you view the scriptures if you come to the

01:18:49

Bible on any subject and Your approach is

01:18:54

Tetris You think you have the liberty to simply take concepts and jumble them all up in order to formulate a pattern?

01:19:05

That you like that comes to your liking and that applies to me it applies to everybody out there if that's your mentality

01:19:13

You're doing it wrong You're doing it wrong. I Would personally love to see

01:19:21

Dr.. Flowers Get out of the Calvinism subject, and I would love to see him actually engage in something that would require a critical thinking analysis

01:19:36

And I mean this is a tough in my view. This is a tough nut to crack I would like to challenge

01:19:43

Layton flowers to review and examine and Get into the teachings of dr.

01:19:50

Michael s Heizer Explain to our listeners who's that dr. Heizer in my view in from what

01:19:57

I've seen and maybe somebody can come up with a Better one than this, but in my view dr.

01:20:03

Michael Heizer is The expert in ancient and Near Eastern studies in the world

01:20:09

I'm sure somebody's gonna come up with somebody that he is a living yes. He is okay and Dr..

01:20:16

Heizer has Developed as a result of this some interesting teachings as a result and my layman's

01:20:28

View on this is that he's taken the Bible He's taken the Old Testament specifically and he's incorporated the things and the knowledge that he has in ancient

01:20:38

Near Eastern studies, and he's overlaid the scriptures with that and In or in that process he

01:20:48

Extrapolates his version of Psalm 82 his

01:20:54

Jewish Trinity teaching and several other different things That are uniquely his in my view

01:21:02

They really are but The fact of the matter is dr.

01:21:08

Heizer is a complex man. He is a critical thinker and He is no small nut to crack

01:21:16

Okay, so the point would be It would require dr. Flowers to take him very serious in order to unpack

01:21:27

What it is that he he's teaches why he and why he teaches it in when

01:21:33

I first met James I'm gonna say 1980s late in the late 1986. He was teaching a

01:21:39

Christian training class and in addressing subjects like Jehovah's Witnesses Mormonism etc.

01:21:47

He had a saying that our goal is to learn about the other group what they believe and Why they believe it it is vital for us that we in interacting with these people understand what they believe at least as good as or better than they do and Then we understand learn why they believe it we go to their sources their original sources and we unpack these things and It's through that kind of an approach again back to critical thinking that equips me the layman to be able to go out to Mesa, Arizona or to Salt Lake City, Utah and stand on the corner of the

01:22:36

Mormon temple there and no matter who comes my way I at least have the fundamental basics of What they believe and why they believe it and now

01:22:48

I have the ability to give them a Christian answer and with that I can bring that in direct contrast to what

01:22:59

I should be able to expect them to respond with The idea is just like in a court of law

01:23:06

What kind of question does a lawyer ever ask one that he already knows the answer to You never ask a question

01:23:14

You don't already know the answer to and the same goes with sharing the gospel with a cult group or a false religion

01:23:20

You never ask a question. You don't already have the answer to now. That's not a perfect world

01:23:26

It doesn't always pan out that way But the point would be is that you want to have a circumstance where you?

01:23:36

Are already ahead now We also had analogies like what

01:23:42

I call the freeway analogy. I Want when I'm talking to a Mormon for instance?

01:23:47

I want to talk my favorite subject is to talk about theology. I'm going to talk about who God is So you got three core central subjects theology

01:23:55

Christology and soteriology? I want to talk about one of those three things, but my chief thing is

01:24:00

I want to camp out nicely at 43 44 6 & 8 I want to talk about who

01:24:06

God is and how he's revealed himself who he's revealed himself to be okay so you're going along your freeway of talking about God and the

01:24:17

Mormon Shifts gears and suddenly you find yourself going on an off -ramp.

01:24:22

We're no longer on that subject He's changed subjects on you, and now you're going somewhere else the idea is

01:24:27

I'm gonna go with him but I want that I want to control that off -ramp in such a way as to either be on Christology or Soteriology now

01:24:37

I may find myself sitting there talking about polygamy They don't usually do that, but let's say for whatever reason some guy comes walking up, and he doesn't like Mormons doesn't know me and he starts yelling about polygamy and Now he's totally derailed my conversation

01:24:55

I'm on the side road, and I'm looking for the next on -ramp to get back to where One of three things who

01:25:03

God is who Christ is what salvation is that's where I want to get back to now for me

01:25:08

Personally if I can get if I can use the one of the other two to get back to my favorite subject

01:25:13

Who God is then I'll do that, but I'm gonna follow that instead of hitting the brakes

01:25:20

And going no no no no no no we can't back up the truck and Threatening or we've got to back up the truck, and and and you can't

01:25:27

I'm not gonna look I'm not gonna talk about that subject. It's got to flow it's got to flow and you don't get there by simply reading somebody else's work and Deciding you can go out and and suddenly be successful doing this, but again that comes back to critical thinking

01:25:45

You know you hear that noise That noise right there that noise that noise people really get surprised when

01:25:56

They that ring they call our number, and I actually answer I Thought it was gonna get a recording machine well today

01:26:03

They get a recording machine because I'm on the air with you But that's what that noise is is that we actually answer the phone at Alpha Omega Ministries, and I actually took the email off Got rid of all that it's like you know what let's just go back to the basics

01:26:17

Because there's so much a two -dimensional interaction that we lose Track of it, and we lose the contours of conversation, so I just put the 800 number anyway

01:26:28

See that was an off -ramp See what I'm saying we just got derailed now I'm gonna get right back on to my subject because I'm gonna find the next

01:26:35

Unwrapped will where I can talk about Mormonism and who God is the idea though is is that the critical thinking?

01:26:42

processes that My generation was really the tail end of that value

01:26:53

Is vital it's vital to our communication, it's vital to our communication with each other and Back to my hope for dr.

01:27:03

Flowers is Dr.. Heizer's work if he will focus on the work product of dr.

01:27:12

Heizer and not on the person of dr. Heizer I I really believe that what could come out the other end if he does it right could be of great value to the

01:27:27

Christian Church Listen to that Rich Pierce thinks that Layton flowers could contribute something of great value to the church, and I say that after doing six episodes

01:27:40

Dismantling The Romans 9 debate and his presentation on it

01:27:45

I I think he handled it in such a way the frankly his side has no choice, but to Handle it that way, and I think it's really unfortunate but again

01:27:58

I Really wonder if after having gone through that kind of a thought exercise

01:28:05

Rolling up your sleeves kind of work that will leave you sitting in the corner rocking yourself

01:28:15

If you're really engaging in dr. Heizer's work and thinking it through the end result will be a dr.

01:28:23

Flowers that comes out the other end suddenly realizing the Argumentation that he's been using

01:28:31

Isn't enough It isn't and It's gonna take another subject of great difficulty for him to come to that point

01:28:44

But that would be a critical thinking exercise, I will know I've noticed over the years of arranging debates for dr.

01:28:53

James R. White as You were mentioning earlier. He does something that his opponents

01:29:00

I'm not gonna say that they've never done But it seems to be fewer and farther between that they have done this whereas dr.

01:29:08

White Will try to read Anything and everything that the his opponent in the debating arena has written or if they don't have anything

01:29:20

Published that is that they've written listen to their lectures or sermons or whatever the case may be he wants to know

01:29:30

What his actual what what the arguments are or the beliefs are of his opponents what what that person really is

01:29:40

Teaching and believing not what the Enemies of his enemy or the opponents of his opponent have have said about his opponent or his opponents theology whereas is where the as the debating opponents that James has faced

01:30:00

That it is apparent that they have not really Taken the time to read anything that James has written

01:30:10

If they are opposing the doctrines of sovereign grace reform theology Calvinism actually reading in depth what those great heroes of that That system of theology have taught in in reality.

01:30:25

They they had typically A Saturating their minds only with what the enemies of reform theology have written and it's not just perform theology

01:30:35

It could be any subject that James is defending There seems to be a lopsidedness there

01:30:41

And I think a lot of what you were just saying is a result of that what you're talking about there I I when you're describing that immediately thought of the debate with Peter Stravinsky on on the one hand

01:30:55

There there's two two things I want to point out there you you have a perfect example of how

01:31:00

James takes his opponent very seriously Wants to devour every bit of that man's work product

01:31:08

That he possibly can so that he can learn what does this man believe and why does he believe it?

01:31:15

I want to know everything I possibly can about it, but it doesn't end there

01:31:22

That's the thing he then turns that over into developing an apologetic

01:31:30

Response to that thinking to that man's own belief system, and so when you watch the debate with father

01:31:38

Stravinsky Okay, you you you see a very frustrated man and He's frustrated by only one thing and that is this guy seems to know everything about me

01:31:51

And I don't know anything about him We will return to this interview with Rich Pierce in just a moment after a word from our sponsors

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to place your order Welcome back we now return to our interview with Rich Pierce of Alpha and Omega Ministries who was talking about father

01:35:39

Peter Stravinskis for me We get

01:35:44

I get phone calls. I answer the phones at Alpha and Omega Ministries. I get phone calls where people will object

01:35:50

Why are you always picking the low -hanging fruit? Now I don't think that Peter Stravinskis is low -hanging fruit but There's there's an element to this that we can't control

01:36:04

We can't control what whether the other side brings their a game or their

01:36:09

D game Whether we're really dealing with the first string or we're dealing with a long bench

01:36:17

Okay, you pick a guy like Stravinskis and you expect to bring get the a -game and When he doesn't even take you seriously it makes for It makes for a lesser debate the standard here is

01:36:32

That we desire We have not always held up to this and Steve Tassi is a perfect example of how low

01:36:40

We've gone simply by taking a friend's word for it But The the circumstances for our desire is that we are

01:36:54

Up against a guy who's bringing the very best that the other side has to offer That that guy's doing the same kind of work that James is doing.

01:37:03

He's over there with his sleeves rolled up He's devouring everything that James has ever written on this topic knows inside and out what

01:37:11

James is going to say And why he's going to say it and has developed an apologetic in response

01:37:19

If you actually had a circumstance where we could put a debate on where both sides did that I?

01:37:27

Believe in boxing you call that a battle royale Okay, the fact of the matter is the result would be a the very best

01:37:37

Informative debate that the audience which is this is this is who this is for that the audience can get out of it

01:37:43

That you put up on YouTube and people watch over and over and over you ever watch that movie that just has so many

01:37:51

Intricate points that you have to watch it over and over and over to catch it all that would be one of those debates and Unfortunately Peter Stravinsky's Didn't bring his a -game that day.

01:38:05

He didn't take James seriously and instead of the Roman Catholics Deciding hey, you know what we've taken this guy way, too for granted

01:38:17

And we shouldn't be and we need to redouble our efforts We need to be offering up the best guy that we have to offer and that guy needs to be doing this kind of work

01:38:27

And if we have to help him dotted out it off Do it instead of doing that They just shut it down.

01:38:34

Yeah, they make the slanderous accusations That James is not worthy of debating because he is hostile and mean hostile and mean and in other words

01:38:47

He cared enough to do his homework on your guy and make sure that he had an answer for every single

01:38:55

Question that would possibly be asked he came to it prepared and that's mean and hostile and that's

01:39:01

Wrong and you're you're just not worthy of our time. That's the best way that they can get around of facing him without being giving the appearance of weakness or ineptness the

01:39:16

The two times that I was very happy to see People see through that Slanderous attitude towards James Were When Peter Kreeft years ago had accepted an invitation of mine to debate

01:39:37

James and He backed out and I was not satisfied or comfortable

01:39:44

With the genuineness of the reason so I went after pressing Dr. Kreeft on it.

01:39:50

He finally admitted to me. Well, I was warned by some of my colleagues in Catholic apologetics that I would be entering into a professional wrestling ring if I were to be debating

01:40:03

James that he is a Brute and he's nasty and he's not

01:40:09

Scholarly, right? So I said to dr. Kreeft. I Said do you think that bearing false witness is a sin?

01:40:18

He said, of course. He said why are you doing it now? Mm -hmm. And he said, what do you mean? I said, have you ever seen dr.

01:40:25

White in a debate? No, I Said well, do you think that you should be?

01:40:31

Embracing this description of him and even telling me this description of him without any first -hand knowledge.

01:40:37

He said you're right He actually admitted critical thinking and you're challenging the critical thing In fact you at my request sent him videos when they wouldn't be actually used video

01:40:48

Of Several of James's debates and Peter Kreeft called me back.

01:40:54

Maybe two weeks later. He said I owe you an apology I owe dr. White an apology the descriptions that were given were utterly false

01:41:02

He is not mean -spirited and he is very scholarly In fact, the reason

01:41:07

I am now declining your invitation is because he is light -years above me on this particular topic

01:41:14

It would not be a suitable match. So yeah, totally rare it's the other time of st. Joseph's communications a very sweet young Catholic lady called me years ago and Said are you the one from Long Island that organizes a lot of James White's debates?

01:41:30

And you said how do you how'd you get this number? That's an inside joke about James's first comments to me

01:41:38

I Said yes, I am and this young lady said well,

01:41:44

I work for st. Joseph's communications and and Scott Hahn, dr. Scott Hahn Kate Katie Della Donna probably

01:41:52

Katie Della Donna and she said we love James White. We think that he's awesome

01:42:00

Obviously we disagree with him on many things but we think he's awesome and we would love to have him debate Scott Hahn and I Chuckled and I said so what

01:42:07

I? I said, but you're never going to get dr. Scott Hahn to debate

01:42:12

James White because he's already denounced dr. White as being mean and Unscholarly and this young lady said

01:42:20

I can't believe that that neither of those are true We've seen James debate many times. He's just awesome.

01:42:26

I said well, I'll tell you what I'm gonna have Rich Pierce send you a Video or two of James White debating and I want you to sit down with Scott Hahn and say

01:42:35

Please watch these debates with me and point out where James White is mean and unscholarly

01:42:42

She called me back a few weeks later after receiving the videos and she said I owe you an apology.

01:42:47

Mr. Arnson. You were right Not only will Scott Hahn not watch the debates with me.

01:42:53

He won't even touch the videos Mm -hmm. So I mean this perpetual

01:42:58

I'm gonna presume that that was the interaction that would eventually Produce the debate with Tim Staples in 1997 when he was with st.

01:43:09

Justice communications and that's where my first interactions with Katie were and Every now and then and usually it's the folks under Down the line.

01:43:21

They're doing the heavy lifting and she's one of them. That is she's just an honest hard -working gal and Trying to do her best

01:43:32

Job that she can and she's not afraid to call it like she sees it and and and actually see it for herself and So so while I'm we're having this conversation about those who won't take the time there yes are those who will take the time but usually they're not in the primary role of decision -making and process and But like I said to her credit she she was

01:44:05

She was very good at her job and Thorough and so there there are those that that will do that but but fast forward to today and All of what's on the table whether that's

01:44:21

Islam now part of the equation Trying to get and I I'm I know

01:44:27

I'm naming some names here, but in some regards I I think I owe some apologies And maybe he'll be listening to this at some point

01:44:35

John Sorensen of Catholic answers We two years ago

01:44:41

Two years ago last night had a debate here with Trent horn and John Sorensen was key in making that Happen the head of Catholic answers, and he's wanted and done

01:44:56

Everything he can possibly do to make Catholic answers available for another debate and There comes a point in time where your schedule and and all the different things that were involved in it's just so busy

01:45:09

Now you're sitting back on you know. I really wish I could have I really wish I could have and That's one of them whether it's gonna be

01:45:17

Jimmy Akin Which can be hard because he doesn't like to fly or or Trent horn again

01:45:24

I Would love to see us be able to put something together for next year with them, and I want that out there publicly

01:45:33

I'm not afraid to put that out to say look. You know what despite the busy schedule despite all the sometimes whether that's black

01:45:41

Hebrew Israelites or Iglesia, New Cristo or some of the other wild things that we've been taking on of late

01:45:51

They can get away Get you steered away from Back to your roots, and I don't ever want to lose track of those roots, and I want to be able to Work something out with John Sorensen to where we can get another

01:46:05

Catholic debate going again No matter whether whether that's in San Diego wherever We need to do it

01:46:12

And I want him to know that I'm interested in doing it and I haven't lost track of them And we're certainly not dodging them and that's unsolicited.

01:46:20

He didn't accuse me. I just want to put that out there, so There's just so much going on there really is

01:46:27

I mean from here Here at g3 James is gonna leave here in Atlanta on Saturday night, and he flies to Samara Russia and It's a place so cold that they're furnishing his they're bringing the

01:46:45

Parker for him hmm, okay, so but but you have men of God There that need solid

01:46:58

Seminary level instruction they just do and it's not like there's a seminary around the corner and so TMAI the

01:47:09

Masters Academy International is doing the heavy lifting to make sure that these men have a place where they can get quality training learn critical thinking

01:47:17

And really get in depth and they bring these men in they're bringing dr. White in for for next week to to teach there

01:47:26

And then after that if you've heard the dividing line you know about CB GM. That is the sometimes the labels

01:47:38

I'm gonna stick with CB GM for It'll come to me in a minute.

01:47:44

I'm sure I know a little bit more about CB GB's the punk Manhattan that closed down a number of years ago now this is not that but but he is gonna be traveling from Russia then on to Munster Germany to do some work in the

01:48:03

CB GM category and It's this is vital work.

01:48:09

This is the ability to Use Computers in such a way as to take a fresh look at textual criticism this is my layman's description of it,

01:48:25

I'm sure the the Guys in the ivory tower would describe it quite differently than I do

01:48:30

But the best I understand it is it's able to look at manuscripts in a way that we can't really do in categorizing using the naked eye and examining the the documents and Categorizing them as we have historically categorized them in families based on location text type antiquity etc all those different categories and putting them into families and tracing them through Almost a genealogical method where CB GM I don't understand it all

01:49:05

I know is it's looking at it in a way that we've never looked at it before and It's supposed to drill down and get us any even a more precise

01:49:15

Way of examining and evaluating these texts and measuring them and the whole concept of text families

01:49:22

Might just go flying right out the window with it to where a whole new concept of MIT and way in which we look at these and tie them together

01:49:32

Will be the result I'm excited about it, and he's excited about it He wants to be a part of it and before we conclude

01:49:40

Can you mention one or two if any? Topics or Concerns That alpha and omega ministries will be addressing in the near future that you're aware of anyway that are perhaps different from the norm or perhaps even completely different than Anything that's ever been addressed with so I mean after black

01:50:05

Hebrew Israelites How does that work You know

01:50:10

I mean Iglesia New Cristo is still chasing us around and it's like you know what we got bigger fish to fry

01:50:15

Might be even something within our own camp it might be in something. That's a well in reformed theology

01:50:21

Well, you just throw that hook out there, and I'll I'll bite the the big thing is and this is what the conference was about last night is the the what

01:50:34

I call the infiltration of the social justice movement into the reformed community and I Was very pleased with how the conference went last night

01:50:46

I thought that all the presenters did a very good job and laid it out quite. Well I've been really kind of spending the last few weeks preparing myself for this conference

01:50:57

Getting up to my elbows in so that I understand it as best I possibly can and even as late as yesterday listening to some new recordings that I had not heard of before of These fellows teaching their subject again coming back to Examining what they believe and why they believe it remember something and I didn't mention this before Why is why do

01:51:26

I keep making that distinction the the reason I make that distinction is is that commonly in apologetics?

01:51:32

We only focus on what they believe We then Take that information compare it to what we believe and you're wrong, and this is why

01:51:42

You can't understand what they believe until you understand why they believe what they believe and that's where the two have to go hand in hand and so as we unpack the whether you want to call it social justice, or whether you want to use all the different words like I Drawing a blank on them at the moment they were going through all the intersectionality and virtue signaling and On and on and on and some terms that just kind of being woke

01:52:16

You know I'm sitting there listening to this last night and and I was listening to this this individual talk about this in this way and And I thought

01:52:24

I'm not talking about our conference last night. I'm talking about the recording I listened to it. I I'm like you know if I were to push this thinking just a little bit farther

01:52:33

I could show an equivalence between the concept of being woke and regeneration

01:52:40

I'm sitting there asking myself the question do they make a distinction and if so why I don't know the answer to that yet but I'm seeing a parallel at the very least and We need to answer this we need to answer this with Exegetical expository means

01:53:02

That's why in all of what was presented last night the anchor guy got up there

01:53:09

James And what did he do did he go through intersectionality again? Did he go through any of the other terms that have already been gone through no the anchor to the whole?

01:53:20

Presentation was Colossians chapter 3 if we don't go back to the scriptures and show where the scriptures answer these beliefs and Show from the scriptures.

01:53:31

Here's what they believe. Here's why they believe it and here's what the scripture presents and why it presents it and How from the

01:53:40

Bible? We see what? The Apostle Paul has to say to us, and why he has to say it

01:53:49

I'm mindful of My wife and I the last year have believe it on 58 and I'd never actually done a chronological study of Scripture She just asked me last year.

01:54:03

Can we do this? Audible thing and through an app and and I thought you know

01:54:08

I've never actually done that that would be awesome let's do that so we've been walking through the Bible together over the last year daily and a

01:54:19

Concept hit me and it you know you ever get those Biblical narratives, it's like you know

01:54:25

I should have clicked with me But it never occurred to me before as reformed men we talk about Genesis 50 a lot

01:54:33

Don't we we talk about Joseph in Egypt, and we talk about him God putting him there so that many would be saved alive

01:54:43

Okay phone just keeps ringing and and so that many would be saved alive and that this would be the

01:54:52

Process through the channel through which God would keep Israel alive and Okay, so we want to look at the evil of this being

01:55:05

Joseph's brothers selling him into slavery okay, and all the things that we did and then we get to Genesis chapter 50 and his brothers are freaking out because dad just died and Now Joseph's going to use all of his power to come down on us like a ton of bricks and his answer is

01:55:25

What you did was evil But God meant it for good That many would be saved alive

01:55:33

Don't you see it. Don't you see it fast forward to Moses?

01:55:39

Where's Israel at when Moses comes on the scene? They're all enslaved How did they get from where they were in Genesis 50 to?

01:55:50

fully enslaved Well guess what what was Joseph doing for Pharaoh during that time

01:55:58

Joseph is the bean counter Joseph is filling up the storehouses with food

01:56:04

Because there's a famine coming. How did Joseph know about the famine? God told him about the famine through Pharaoh's dream

01:56:13

Okay Well, I can't see in God's hand all the way through here. It's woven all the way through Okay, so he fills up the storehouses and then the famine comes and what happens

01:56:27

We don't often talk about this aspect of it What happens is is that this segment of the population runs out of food has sold all of its property off Doesn't have anything left and they go to Pharaoh and they say we're gonna starve to death now

01:56:44

We've bought all the food we can because we had belongings we spent all of our money We got rid of all our belongings the whole nine yards.

01:56:50

Okay, they start with their land. Hey Pharaoh We got this land Okay, you can buy some food in the land.

01:56:57

Okay. So now Pharaoh owns their land. They come back later. They're starving again Hey Pharaoh Okay, tell you what?

01:57:05

I own you now and Pharaoh they then put themselves into indentured slavery in order to stay alive

01:57:16

Eventually except for Pharaoh's priests Which had an exemption in the law in Egyptian law that allowed them to not be taxed

01:57:27

The Egyptian government had to feed them and they got to keep their own land except for them when the end of the story comes to the end all of Egypt is enslaved and Pharaoh owns everybody and everything

01:57:45

Now, wait a minute. What did Pharaoh use to buy? That oh, that's right all of that food that Joseph was used by God to store up Fast forward to Moses and we get to Moses coming on the scene and We don't think about the fact that everybody's a slave

01:58:06

When Moses stands there and says let my people go all of that all of that slavery 400 years of slavery, but more than just Israel was brought about Providentially by God to bring the people of Israel alive through this whole process that one day they would come to the sea and it would part and They would leave

01:58:37

Pharaoh and his army behind And that's where we're gonna have to end it Because I have to meet with family radio for a special lunch, but a special dinner

01:58:47

But I really appreciate your time rich Pierce we cannot wait another year before you're back as a guest and We want to make sure that our listeners know the website is a o m i n org for Alpha Omega ministries a o m i n org a wealth of information will be found there and Send our regards to dr.

01:59:09

White. Oh, well, and we look forward to having him back as well. God bless you, brother Thank you for joining us at the g3 conference edition of iron sharpens iron radio.

01:59:17

You're very welcome Well, we are out of time for today. I hope that you have enjoyed hearing these interviews from the 2019 g3 conference there are more of those to come

01:59:29

So, please continue to listen to iron sharpens iron radio over the next few days

01:59:34

And as Chris Arnzen always says I want you to remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far far greater