Roman Catholicism on Today’s Dividing Line

Alpha & Omega Ministries

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

Comments are disabled.

00:38

And good afternoon morning, whatever time it is you're listening. Oh, you know, we've got to do

00:46

You're gonna have to you're gonna have to you have to take care of that now You all see how we try to get that thing going. We got in late today.

00:52

And so we were trying to get the Yeah, yeah,

00:59

I know the lava lamp did not get started nearly early enough today So it's it's not gonna be lava ing very well, but we'll try welcome to the dividing line

01:10

It's a beautiful day here in Phoenix, Arizona. I realize that that's not nice to mention to some of you back east foot and a half of snow in Chicago all sorts of stuff like that, but I was running in the dark this morning and It was a little nippy.

01:26

It was a little nippy. It was like 49 something like that But we're heading up to what 75 today.

01:33

I think something like that Yeah, 80 by the weekend. Yeah, I think today's like 75 76 something like that So that's that's that's why we live here in Phoenix.

01:41

I heard somebody saying something about it and Northern end of the center of the country, you know high of six.

01:49

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, so we get 79 degrees on it by weekend. That's why that's why people move here for for retirement

01:58

Have two clips to start the program with and then some other stories it might have time to take some calls

02:04

We'll see depends on how long it takes to get through this material I normally don't sit around watching

02:11

Catholic answers clips. I don't remember how this came up. I think

02:16

I was looking for something Yeah, you know, I think I was watching the second clip and this came up in the sidebar thing

02:23

I think that's how it happened. I could be wrong anyway, and I want to review a phone call on Catholic answers live to Jimmy Akin and Since they provided a video clip, we'll play it so that we have the full context

02:40

This is the very definition of fair use because we are providing critical interaction with the

02:48

With the material and here is a caller The caller has a friend who is leaving

02:54

Roman Catholic Church and one of the issues is purgatory and Good reason to leave

03:00

Roman Catholicism to be sure one of its many false doctrines And so I want to review the answer given by mr.

03:09

Akin, by the way Carl Keating has stepped down as president of Catholic answers that was announced yesterday

03:17

Fellow who's only been with them since about 2012 has taken over name. I do not recognize

03:23

I guess Keating will still be Involved in some fashion, but you know, the 1980s were a while ago and It is interesting to see what has developed there

03:36

But we're going to be taking a look at this this clip right here And if we've got it queued up and ready to go, let's

03:44

Take a listen. We'll be starting and stopping responding to Jimmy Akin on the subject of Purgatory you have about the

03:52

Catholic faith. Jimmy Akin is here with the Catholic answer Rebecca you're up next in st.

03:58

Louis on EWTN .com. Hi Rebecca. Hi. Hi Thanks for having me

04:04

Thank you for your willingness to call and wait and come on the show. Go ahead All right.

04:09

I have a friend who was raised Catholic and Who has who's a very faithful person, but she has some serious doubts about the

04:18

Catholic faith Okay, and she is looking to leave the church and one of the yeah So one of the first big hang -ups she has that she told me about it was purgatory.

04:28

Okay, and I was wondering if you had any Biblical tools that I could use to give her some basis for Having a reasonable faith in purgatory.

04:39

I do now now I stop right there because Jimmy Akin is going to say it we all need to recognize that when you're talking about theology and Roman Catholicism Roman Catholicism cannot defend

04:56

Its unbiblical doctrines on the basis of Scripture for obvious reasons. So what does

05:01

Rome have to do deny? Sola scriptura deny the sufficiency of Scripture to be able to answer these questions now

05:07

He's gonna try to provide some references, but as we're gonna see the two references he provides completely collapsed upon any meaningful examination as has been demonstrated we have debated this subject before as for example in debating

05:22

Tim Staples on this very issue and yet It just doesn't seem that Roman Catholic apologists can step their game up Mainly, I guess it's because of the dogmatic definitions of the church

05:37

You can't go beyond what the church has said and the church has dogmatically Misdefined things and so you just have to keep repeating things

05:45

I guess over and over again Even when you know that a very thorough Rebuttal of that information can be given.

05:52

I mean just just Just sit down and and listen to the the cross -examination period in my debate with Peter Stravinsky Classic opportunity to walk through the second text that Jimmy Akin is going to give and Just and and did the same thing with Staples, but just demonstrate

06:19

Um Rome has No meaningful defense. So what do you have to do first attack sola scriptura?

06:27

But first, let me ask are there particular has she expressed to you? Why she's having a concern about purgatory because if I it may it may not be enough to just show her a biblical basis

06:37

For it. We also may need to answer a concern that she's feeling about it. So has she done any of that?

06:45

She said she said she doesn't see purgatory in the Bible. Okay. Well if that's her only concern

06:53

Number one not everything has to be mentioned explicitly in the Bible The Bible nowhere says that and so if she's approaching the

07:00

Bible With that as a principle in mind that if in order to believe something you have to see it explicitly in the

07:06

Bible that's itself a problem and so We have a lot of stuff at catholic .com

07:14

that could help her with that You might want to go to catholic .com and type in Bible alone would be one phrase you could use or solo scriptura if you can remember that Because that's the principle she's applying at that point now.

07:30

Well, so there you go You you have to you have to attack solo scriptura so here you have a dogma of The church

07:42

But you have to start off by saying but it doesn't need to be explicitly taught in Scripture and so the the the idea then would be well, this is part of the oral tradition, but the reality is of course that There is no oral tradition anyone who seriously examines the subject of Purgatory knows that it developed slowly over centuries

08:12

That the biggest impetus in its development was Pope Gregory the Great But you're still talking half a millennium after the death of the last

08:22

Apostle So it is it is something that required numerous lines of development to come together and that you really don't have the modern doctrine of purgatory with Satis Pacio and indulgences and super irrigation and so on and so forth

08:43

Until You know the 14th century So you have elements of it before that but the full

08:51

Dogma that you have to believe now today long time after the Apostles and so that's the historical reality of purgatory

09:01

And that's why you have to deny sola scriptura at the start which is what Jimmy Akin does here

09:06

But he wants to try to provide some verses. So let's see what verses he uses If it's just a matter of purgatory in particular

09:16

Well, if you look in second Maccabees, there is a passage where you have

09:23

You have Judah Maccabee He's a military leader and political leader in ancient Israel and he and his men come across the bodies of some other soldiers who had fallen in battle they died in battle and They were fighting for God so they're fighting on this, you know for Israel on the side of the true

09:45

God but they had committed sin and this Okay, let's most people especially

09:53

Most people in our audience, which I assume majority are not Roman Catholics And of course of it faster to Roman Catholics to are not familiar with this story.

10:04

It's in the second Maccabees chapter 12 beginning at verse 38, so let's re -familiarize or Encounter for the first time this particular story that is being told

10:20

Then Judas assembled his army and went to the city of Adullam as the seventh day was coming on They purified themselves according to the custom and kept the

10:27

Sabbath there on the next day as had now become necessary Judas and his men Went to take up the bodies of the fallen and bring them back to lie with their kindred in the sepulchers of their ancestors

10:39

Then under the tunic of each one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia Which the law forbids the

10:47

Jews to wear and it became clear to all that this was the reason these men had fallen

10:53

So they all blessed the ways of the Lord the righteous judge reveals the things that are hidden and they turned to supplication

10:59

Praying the sin had been that had been committed Might be wholly blotted out the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin for they had seen with their own eyes

11:09

What had happened as a result of the sin of those who had fallen? He also took up a collection man -by -man to the amount of 2 ,000 drachmas of silver silver and Sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering in doing this

11:21

He acted very well and honorably taking account of the resurrection For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again

11:28

It would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead But if he was looking for the splendid reward that is laid out for those who who fall asleep in godliness

11:38

It was a holy and pious thought Therefore he made atonement for the dead so they might be delivered from their sin

11:45

There is the the text as it is found in the second book of Maccabees so may

11:54

I just point something rather painfully obvious out here Prayers the dead in Roman Catholicism are not for people who are not in purgatory

12:08

In other words, they are only for people who die in a state of grace Now the whole application of all this to an

12:17

Old Testament setting seems completely irrelevant to me But following through let's let's follow the story through Idolatry is a venial sin.

12:29

I thought idolatry if it would be anything is Immortal sin, in fact, it doesn't the book of Isaiah say that he who who chooses an idol is

12:41

To a Va an abomination before God. Yeah, it does say that Isaiah 41

12:47

Or 44 I think it's in both actually anyway so these men were carrying idols on their bodies and Yet prayers are being made for them.

13:03

That's somehow relevant to purgatory So idolatry is a venial sin and it does not destroy his grace of justification evidently,

13:09

I guess Of course, all these are so such anachronistic

13:14

Categories that have nothing to do with the original text that it's it's hard to even hard to even notice

13:19

But obviously there's nothing about purgatory here There's nothing here that says that this was the right thing to do

13:27

That God approved of this or anything else But there's more that mr

13:34

Akin forgot to mention to his caller and that's gonna come up in the next section though.

13:40

So we'll let but mr Akin continue on your role in their falling in battle.

13:46

And so What Judah does is he number one takes up a collection to have a sacrifice?

13:53

Offered at the temple in Jerusalem for these people and that signifies that in some way

13:59

Even in this life we can help people after they've died and he also has his men what that signifies is that Judas Offered had prayers offered.

14:10

What does that it's talking about the forgiveness of the sin forgiveness for them or Forgiveness for the army.

14:17

Remember remember what happened at AI? one guy Steals of stuff what happens to the army after that they suffer defeat

14:28

There's a there's a federalistic idea here not an individual Oh, we want to pray for these guys to get them out of purgatory

14:36

Concept there's these people have no concept of purgatory But by any stretch the imagination

14:43

For those who had fallen in battle and so that also signifies that in some way in this life

14:49

We can pray for those who have fallen who are no longer alive and in some way help them and so that presupposes the existence of a state where People's journey to heaven is not yet complete.

15:03

They're on their way to heaven. They fell asleep in righteousness, but They they fell asleep as idolaters

15:10

The text has nothing to do with this at all This is I said Jesus to the nth degree less can still be helped by our prayers and and by having

15:21

Sacrifices made for them like the modern sacrifice of the mass now Depending on where your friend is at the moment

15:28

She may or may not recognize second Maccabees as an actual book of Scripture because in the

15:34

Protestant community It is not commonly recognized as a book of Scripture. And so if she's been Influenced by some who are in the

15:41

Protestant community. She may have doubts about does this book belong in the Bible or not and That raises a question.

15:48

How do we know which books belong in the Bible? And if you if you look at the situation carefully

15:56

It's clear that the canon of the Old Testament Includes some books that our

16:02

Protestant friends don't recognize as Scripture In fact, if you look in the book of Hebrews in chapter 11

16:09

It even contains a reference to this very book of second Maccabees not the same passage, but the same book

16:16

And again, we have a lot of stuff at Catholic comm that can help you with that if you want to explain

16:21

Yeah, I'm sure they do have a lot of stuff there. I I don't know if it includes any of the debates We've done on the

16:26

Apocrypha Because I I think that we've done real well in our debates on the

16:32

Apocrypha with Jerry Matitix and Gary Machuta And I would be happy to debate

16:37

Jimmy Akin on this subject too because he might want to Include in the information that he's giving to this lady

16:47

He mentions Hebrews chapter 11 Now be very careful when you hear people say this there is nowhere in Hebrews chapter 11 where the writer of the

16:56

Hebrews cites Maccabees as Scripture Hebrews chapter 11 is what the faith chapter and it tells the stories of Many of those who have gone before some of which are not found in Scripture So the idea is what's being assumed is if the scriptures

17:17

Make reference to a book it should be in the canon problem with that is The New Testament makes reference to a number of books that even the

17:26

Roman Catholics don't have in their canon So that can't follow can it not consistently

17:32

See, that's why I really think a lot of Roman Catholic apologists have moved much more to the monologue

17:38

Model than they used to the debate model when you know Carl Keating first started stuff and Patrick Madrid and Jerry Madetik's back in the day

17:48

Huh, they they did not have EWTN and they didn't have

17:54

Catholic answers live and They they needed

17:59

You know, they needed to get their message out. And so they were much more open to this idea of of Debate and things like that now that they they have their kingdom

18:14

They got something to protect They're just not nearly as ready to debate. Have you noticed that you know, we haven't almost what we were talking about What was the last

18:23

Roman Catholic debate with that Catholic attorney? I think was like in 2011 2010 something like that.

18:30

It's It's it's been a while, huh? Yeah, Christopher Ferraro. It's it's it's been a while other than the

18:36

Tim Staples Dividing line debate. So There's there's nothing in in Hebrews 11 that says

18:46

Maccabees is scripture and in fact the Jewish people never accepted the book of Maccabees as scripture and All the way up to the days of Cardinal Cayetan at the time of the

18:59

Reformation there were Orthodox theologians that rejected these books of scripture and I would think especially on this subject that it would be

19:09

Exceptionally relevant to Jimmy Akin to be open in telling us his caller

19:15

Because I know Jimmy Akin knows this Well, let me just let me just read you from an

19:23

Excellent set of books you need to have in your library This is William Webster's volume in the

19:29

Holy Scripture series, but I Just needs needs to be needs to be recognized

19:38

With reference to which particular we are not acting irregularly if from the books though not canonical

19:46

Yet brought out for the edification of the church We bring forward testimony thus Eliezer in the battle smote and brought down an elephant but fell under the very beast

19:54

That he killed citing first Maccabees 646 who am I quoting? I am quoting

20:01

Pope Gregory the Great Now Pope Gregory the Great is a doctor of the church

20:08

Pope Gregory the Great is writing between 590 and 604

20:14

Pope Gregory the Great is one of the primary people that That brought forward the the the most important elements of development in the doctrine of purgatory and yet Pope Gregory the

20:30

Great did not believe that first and second Maccabees were scripture and That clearly represented the view of the church that he knew in that day.

20:41

I Think that would be relevant maybe to share with the lady, you know, don't you think?

20:47

The reality is that there were far more meaningful biblical theologians of biblical theologians theologians who knew the

20:58

Bible In the early history of the church and all the way down to the time of Reformation who rejected

21:05

These books because they recognized look what is what is Romans 3 say? God Entrusted his oracles to the

21:14

Jewish people, right? The Jewish people never viewed these books of scripture. They were never laid up in the temple.

21:20

They are not part of the 22 books 39 as we would count them because of course they count the minor prophets as one so on so forth

21:26

They were not seen by the Jewish people as scripture They're never cited as scripture by the

21:33

Apostles of Jesus Christ who knew them who made reference to them But saw them exactly as what they were

21:39

Non -canonical edifying stories the Jewish people but they are not canon scripture just as Pope Gregory the

21:46

Great said Now, don't you think that'd be relevant to mention to the lady? Wouldn't it be nice if we could hope that what whoever this lady is talking to That maybe she will gain access to this information, too.

22:01

Yeah, that'd be good. I think that would that would be good That with her you can go there and type in Maccabees or you can type in deuterocanonicals

22:13

Or you can type in canon and all of those will help pull up some resources on that Suppose though that she says well,

22:20

I just I don't want to talk about second Maccabees. I'm not willing to give that weight Is there anything else you can show her? Yes Go to 1st

22:27

Corinthians 3 where Paul talks about how everyone must build on the foundation of all right now here now

22:33

Here we go. Now again, I realize we have a lot of callers And listeners who have not seen

22:43

I'm gonna ask somebody to do something for me in channel. I know I know some folks in channel are watching Someone that's not gonna do me good

22:53

Because I can't I can't I will try without messing this up To pull up the cross

23:02

X with Peter Stravinsky's. I think that'd be a good thing to possibly throw in here

23:07

Later on it's it's on YouTube. It's not it's actually not on it. Well, it might be our channel Well, well the whole the whole debate is but there's also the most popular one is the clip

23:20

No, no, no. No, it's not the way it's it's it's another one but it's the cross X with Peter Stravinsky's on this subject and So here it comes and if you want to hear

23:32

What's interesting to me is when I debated Tim Staples here on this program Just a few years ago on this he had the opportunity to have reviewed the

23:43

Stravinsky's material and he Still did not have any meaningful way around Dealing with the reality of what first Corinthians 3 is actually talking about which has nothing to do with purgatory it has everything to do with the judgment of Christian leaders as to how they've built upon the

24:05

Foundation whether with gold silver precious stones wood. Hay straw it has everything to do with the fact there's going to be a day of judgment at the end that's going to judge the quality of their work and That those who have built with improper motivations will lose the reward of their work

24:22

But has nothing to do with indulgences satespasio temporal punishments

24:32

Anything like that at all? utter is a Jesus but Despite that fact.

24:40

It's all Rome's got Sometimes you almost feel sad Roman Catholic apologists, they just you know, they're it's

24:48

Rome's told and believe us and so, you know, there it goes Christ But the quality of our work is going to be tested by fire

24:55

And if we've built well, then what we have survived what we have built will survive the testing by fire and will receive a reward

25:03

But if not, if we've built poorly on the foundation of Christ, then what we've built will be consumed

25:10

But we ourselves will still be saved but it'll be like escaping through flames like escaping through a burning building and so this shows that after we're dead after our

25:21

Salvation is already secure because he said this person will be saved but like escaping through flames After our salvation is secure

25:29

We're still going to be tested based on what we did with in this life and any remaining impurities are going to need to be purged

25:36

That's also something. Okay, that that's has nothing to do with 1st Corinthians chapter 3. Okay that is complete eisegesis and And I've already taken up so much time with this and there's other things

25:50

I need to get to I'm gonna hold this on To later, maybe we'll just tack it on at the end of the program Just just for your and your watch your viewing enjoyment,

25:58

I don't know we'll see but That is not what 1st Corinthians chapter 3 is about it is about The testing of the motivations of Christian leaders in building upon the foundation that Christ is laid in the church the idea this has to do with You have this load of Temporal punishments for sin that you've not worked off through your confessions and your penances

26:31

And that you can't enter in the presence of God now without this period of purging again hundreds of years down the road slow incremental development movement not due to the

26:45

In -depth analysis of Scripture, but to the moving away from the analysis of Scripture You end up with this concept of purgatory could simply infer from the fact that we're not gonna be sinning in heaven we're gonna be perfect and that means all of the traces of sin and all of the

27:02

Remaining kind of gunk that's cleaning to a clinging to a spiritually after this life is gonna need to be purged away

27:09

The church doesn't say it takes any particular amount of time. It could happen in a flash The church has as Jimmy Akin well knows said for centuries

27:24

That it was a temporal thing. You cannot deny that the gold in the

27:31

Petrine promise at the top of St. St.

27:37

Peter's Basilica in the Vatican in Rome was paid for by Indulgent sales based upon the idea of time in purgatory, you know that that's historically a

27:50

Reality to deny that is to simply go. I don't see You know that it was

27:57

What's the Sabbatine privilege? What's the what's the scapular all about Mary descending on the

28:04

Friday after you die into purgatory and releasing yours? What's the Friday? Why have you died on Monday?

28:12

Too obvious too too obvious, but you get away with it in this kind of context, but that's gonna be a transition

28:20

We all need to have between being impure in this life and being totally pure in heaven One last thing

28:25

Pope Benedict has an excellent discussion of this in his encyclical on Christian. Hope's best Salvi That's SPE new word

28:34

Salvi I yeah, there you go. So You Get what you pay for when you you know, that that's that's what's good about having debates and things like that is

28:47

You get to hear both sides you get to hear both sides and When you when you call

28:52

Catholic answers, you know, I could get the whole story. You're not gonna get the whole story and That's why

28:59

I'm very thankful that we have Sorry about that, that's why

29:07

I'm very thankful that we have the debates so you can hear both sides You can hear the best both sides have to offer and I think that's really really important.

29:16

All right now, I Wanted to make sure to have enough time to get to this. That's why I didn't play the the cross -examination clip

29:22

I have I have it queued up here. We can we can go to it. Oh Yeah, October 21st 2nd 2010.

29:32

Yeah, some Janice and I did purgatory too. So Have debated with a number of people

29:38

I Was this one was one that I was directed to through Twitter and I Have great respect for Robbie Zacharias for RZ.

29:53

I am They do great work in many areas but when it comes to the issue of Roman Catholicism there is a

30:05

I think to be honest with you. It just seems to me that when you that look at the the largest apologetics ministries, they're really

30:18

Hesitant to say anything about Roman Catholicism Maybe that's why we are not one of them

30:25

I've said many many times if you want to keep your ministry very small Um deal with Roman Catholicism Islam and be reformed perfect perfect storm right there that'll

30:38

That'll keep you out of a lot of things This was from some

30:46

Q &A session with Robbie Zacharias and dr Nabeel Qureshi and I I wrote to Nabeel let him know that I was going to be

30:55

Reviewing this clip and I said you're in the clip, but you don't say a word so I'm not

31:02

I'm not dealing with the with anything Nabeel said here at all, but He is right to start and he's he's he's rocking a suit here.

31:11

He's making a I've seen Nabeel not wearing suits Let's put it that way so He's looking good on stage here.

31:19

But the question is asked You've got some guys that are going out doing street ministry and the guys ask

31:26

One of the toughest groups for us to deal with our Roman Catholics so I'm gonna do is

31:33

I'm gonna play the question that I'm gonna stop it and then I'm going to answer the question as I believe it needs to be answered and then

31:42

I'll play what Robbie Zacharias said and I think the contrast is

31:50

The education I think the contrast Speaks to what the real issues are and so let's let's take a look at this clip

32:10

Good evening, dr. Zacharias and dr. Nabeel's a great honor to have you here tonight with us For about six or seven years now me and my friends have been going out evangelizing in the streets

32:20

And I'm sorry to change the gears here, but I'm in desperate need of your help tonight we encounter a lot of groups on the streets different religious groups

32:30

Mormons Jehovah's Witnesses things like that and one group we have a particular problem with sometimes and answering is a

32:38

Roman Catholicism and So I went I went back to research doctor. I mean not doctor, but Martin Luther and Charles Spurgeon and things like that and they would call it a heresy

32:50

But when I fast -forward to now and I go and read the Kingdom of the cults by Walter Martin It's not in there.

32:57

So my question to you is Is Roman Catholicism another example of how unity does not equal uniformity within the

33:04

Christian community? Or is it a derivative or is it at its core a derivative from true Christianity?

33:11

All right, so there's the question and Let me let me just show you I understand

33:18

Ravi Zacharias is hesitant to deal with this. Look at look at the beginning here

33:31

Just like saying do you want to be axed or do you want to be hanged, you know? Well, there you go,

33:39

I Realize that to answer the question

33:46

Historically as Protestants have is To paint yourself as Intolerant unloving, etc, etc.

33:57

I I get that but I If I was standing in front if I thought if this is where I was and this may be

34:06

Why I don't get to be a lot of places like this because people know that if I'm asked this question,

34:13

I Absolutely believe that I am under Obligation to the

34:20

Word of God to answer clearly and directly

34:26

Here's my answer. The man said We are in desperate need of your assistance

34:32

To which I would say I fully understand why? Roman Catholicism is such a stumbling block to you in your ministry because Roman Catholicism Does not have the gospel of Jesus Christ The gospel of the

34:47

Roman Catholic faith does not bring peace to anyone which is why we must evangelize

34:52

Roman Catholics who believe what Roman Catholicism teaches Rome denies the sufficiency of Scripture.

34:58

We just saw that in the Jimmy Akin clip that we just played if you are out there proclaiming the scriptures to be the sole infallible rule of faith and Insufficient for life and godliness and for a complete knowledge of the gospel.

35:13

Then yes, you are always going to be running directly into Roman Catholicism which must oppose you in that proclamation and if that's the foundation your proclamation of the gospel

35:24

Then you'll always be in opposition Likewise the gospel that you're preaching if it's the biblical gospel is a gospel that teaches that there is a single sufficient sacrifice of Jesus Christ and That that one sacrifice perfects for all time those who are being sanctified and That that one sacrifice does not have to be

35:47

Represented over and over and over again But that that one sacrifice saves and saves perfectly.

35:55

The problem is Roman Catholicism denies all of these things Roman the

36:00

Roman Catholic gospel Says that the there is no finished work of Christ Because they believe that the mass is a perpetuatory sacrifice and yet it is not perpetuatory in the sense that actually saves

36:13

Because you can approach the mass 10 ,000 times 20 ,000 times in life and never be perfected by approaching that mass

36:21

So it does not perfect anyone for for whom it is offered thereupon the altar

36:28

By a man who claims to be an altar Christos another Christ Who claims to have the sacramental authority to render

36:35

Christ present body soul blood and divinity upon that altar? And who also claims the power to be able to sacramentally forgive you of sins

36:42

And in fact, if you commit a mortal sin, whatever that is depends on the priest you're talking to Your relationship with God can be destroyed.

36:50

You can become an enemy of God and without that priests activity of providing sacramental

36:56

Forgiveness to the sacrament of penance and reconciliation Then you cannot be saved and yet you can through him rejustifying you sacramentally and yet you can use that you can lose that and then go back and forth and back and forth between these two states and Even when you commit non

37:18

Mortal sins which are called venial sins that altar Christos that priest can assign to you

37:24

Penances, but if you don't do them, right then when you die, you're impure you can't go in the presence of Christ You have to go into purgatory where you undergo status passio the suffering of atonement for your sins

37:35

And that's where you get indulgences and all the rest of stuff and the simple fact the matter is that is not the gospel of Jesus Christ it never will be and never can be and As long as the book of Galatians is in the

37:48

New Testament Anyone who believes that stuff needs to hear the gospel because they are a pseudo

37:53

Delphi their false brother Because the Judaizers added one thing to the gospel of Christ and Paul said the very truth the gospel

38:03

Depend upon resisting them and not submitting to them That's the biblical teaching

38:10

Romans 5 1 says therefore having been justified by faith. We have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ The Roman Catholic gospel cannot give peace because you can be justified unjustified justified unjustified and you cannot know in this life

38:24

Whether you have actually been justified false gospel False system false leadership false authority.

38:31

Yes, you desperately need to be evangelizing these folks You need to understand solo scripture and need to understand the solos of the

38:39

Reformation the rest of them. So Lafitte solo gratia These things remain the issue to this very day and So yes as you're out there dealing with these individuals

38:53

It will take some special preparation on your part to be ready to go we've tried to provide that special preparation in Over 30

39:02

Moderated public debates on the key issues in regards to priesthood and purgatory and the papacy and Mary in the mass and all these things

39:10

I didn't get into Mary Could have but didn't What I got into was enough to answer the question

39:18

So that's how I'd answer the question now I can back up everything

39:23

I've just said and I have done so in debate with Roman Catholic apologists for decades

39:32

There was nothing there that was actually overly controversial My representation of what

39:38

Rome teaches I know it's not the way they present it, but it was accurate it was very accurate So, there you go

39:47

Let's see what dr. Zacharias said I Appreciate the question that you're raising, you know, it's interesting that Whether you grew up in a land that you know where there are 330 million deities

40:05

You get a lot of questions like this as well So let me just be first.

40:10

Let me issue a disclaimer here briefly we as Christian apologists basically defend the

40:19

Biblical worldview as we understand it see it and find it represented.

40:25

We know there are many people who may have some doctrinal diversities and doctrinal differences to from us and we

40:35

Understand that so you've obviously heard me address this in some way because you use the very words

40:41

I've sometimes used unity does not have to be uniformity. So something like that Let me put it to you in these words without getting specific and near the answer and then

40:54

Issuing one or two comments after that number one. It is this It doesn't really matter what label one puts on an empty bottle

41:04

If the bottle is empty Or the bottle is mislabeled then it is even very dangerous

41:10

The Bible reminds us who is a Christian? It is one who really confesses in his mouth and believes in his heart that Jesus Christ Lord and that Christ has raised him from the dead and so on When you get into this theological realm, there are many other additions that come in So if you ask me, what does it take to be a follower of Jesus Christ?

41:34

My answer may be very brief. If you say to me, what does it take to belong to a particular denomination?

41:41

We may make it longer because the denomination may add its distinctives to find uniformity in that group

41:47

Then you may say what does it take to teach in a theological institution? Now you have to be even more protracted in your answer because as an instructor you have to be theologically very correct crossing your t's and dotting your i's

42:03

I know many people whether they are in Protestantism or in Roman Catholicism who are truly followers of Jesus Christ There are many other aspects of their faith that they may not fully subscribe to That is an accretion across history that was added

42:20

By the power of leadership or by the power of group or sectarianism

42:26

The fascinating thing is prior to the Reformation We were all sort of divided into Eastern and Western at that point and there were distinctives and hierarchy and then doctrinal

42:36

Distinctives emerged just as well. So my answer to you is what is a cult?

42:43

Let me define it for you in the simplest possible way A cult is generally,

42:49

I think Walter I actually as you probably know Went on and became the general editor of Walter Martin's book

42:55

So in the last seven or eight years that book really the family asked me to bring the editing into it

43:01

But I define a cult this way anything that deviates from the historic person and work of Jesus Christ or adds to his teaching and is generally at the

43:14

Instruction of one individual Who dictates that belief it is almost certainly cultic at that time

43:24

Oftentimes groups can function as a hierarchy within themselves and an individual heteronomically dictating the laws if that happens then any one of us whether in Protestantism or in Catholicism can end up becoming cultic by following just one particular brand of teaching and deviating from the historic person

43:44

And work of Jesus Christ My answer to you is very simple. You follow

43:49

Christ as best you know how as revealed in the Word of God and Serve him and love him and honor him with your life in your heart and in your walk

43:59

And that's what you preach to others as well God will be the ultimate judge of what groups went wrong in which direction

44:07

I have a hard enough time dictating whether my family has been right in every way leave alone historic

44:13

Five six hundred years of denominations, so I'm not dodging the question I'm just telling you it is wise to be careful and not tower everybody with the same brush in a particular group the faith that you have in Christ is a personal one and Sometimes I know people who stay within groups in order to bring changes within that group where they see doctrinally

44:35

They have deviated or gone astray from other belief systems It is possible that a person may be a good

44:41

Christian and a bad Roman Catholic I I don't know how that helped that fellow.

45:05

I'll be honest with you. I I I don't know how that Helped that fellow at all

45:14

How would you how would you interpret that? Um When they go out

45:21

Evangelizing next time and run into well -trained Roman Catholics who have been listening to Catholic answers

45:28

How are they helped by that or were they damaged by that? Let's put this way if that guy heard my answer and that answer which one do you think would give him some guidance as To how to prepare for the next encounter with Roman Catholics There was nothing about the gospel there

45:48

It sounded like There was sort of the well, you know, there could be some

45:53

Roman Catholics that that are true. There are Roman Catholics that are true believers. That's what he said.

45:59

Okay What are they true believers in if they're true believers in what

46:07

Rome officially teaches? That's not the gospel He says well some people stay to try to affect change from from inside, okay,

46:15

I've heard those stories But we're talking about a very small number of people and I don't suggest that by any stretch the imagination

46:22

Come out from her my people That's disobedience to the

46:27

Word of God. The point is can you look at how the

46:33

Bible defines the gospel? Look at how Rome defines the gospel and say close enough

46:41

No and oh But It almost sounded like at the beginning what he was saying was well we as Christian apologists

46:51

We defend the Christian worldview and it sounds like the William Lane Craig mere

46:57

Christianity model where Roman Catholics and Protestants can stand together because well, we've got the

47:04

Trinity and We've got the cross and the resurrection and that's pretty much it

47:11

You can't really ask what the Trinity's done. You can't really ask what the cross means what it affects but you've just got the bare bones and that's as close as we can get and Most people know

47:25

I just go that's not Christianity That ain't enough. I don't believe in least common denominator

47:30

Christianity. I don't believe it's defensible Um, and I think it creates a mess which reminded me while that was going on The other point that I wanted to get to we might have to go along today.

47:44

Sorry folks You might have to go a little longer Not too much, but a little bit Might not be a full jumbo, but who knows?

47:54

Uh, I don't have a video on this So I will

48:01

Take that down and go back to something that probably will be able to Help you out there in a second.

48:12

I only have the audio But I got some people upset yesterday

48:20

When I made reference to a statement by William Lane Craig, I quoted him

48:29

Quoted him directly on the subject of the historical Adam and Eve and People were jumping up and down and they're like what what?

48:42

Why y 'all was picking on humans? I just quoted him Where did he say that?

48:49

Okay, I want to play if I can get to work it's the download thing unfortunately opened up a window and And Safari just does not like to do the down the save mp3

49:02

I have to open up Chrome to do it and just didn't have time to mess around it I'm gonna see if I can get this to work but Here's here's a portion of the

49:18

Reasonable faith podcast here is good evidence for the historicity of Jesus resurrection and If you deny the historical

49:28

Adam and Eve as I share in the defenders class the doctrine of original sin though common to Catholicism and most

49:37

Protestant denominations is not characteristic of Eastern Orthodoxy the

49:43

Eastern churches like Russian Orthodoxy Greek Orthodox Do not hold that all of mankind falls in Adam's sin and inherit original sin from Adam They do believe in a historical

49:56

Adam. That's true But it it isn't the case that the whole story of sin and redemption falls apart without Adam and Eve for the

50:05

Orthodox Christian Adam is simply the floodgate so to speak through which sin enters into the world and then spreads to the rest of humanity

50:16

But it could have entered at any point when you you think about it. There was nothing Particularly special about that point so as important as Adam and Eve are

50:26

We mustn't think that the doctrine of original sin is inherent to Christianity Because it's just not it's part of Catholicism and Protestantism for the most part, but it's not characteristic of Orthodoxy Well, uh, there you go

50:46

And I quoted the middle portion of that Um That's the result of LCD theology least common denominator theology

50:58

Well East Orthodox. I say they don't really have a doctrine of original sin um

51:05

They also have a doctrine justification by faith either so that means

51:11

Yeah, that's exactly what it means. That's also just a side issues LCD theology means the gospel does not define the

51:21

Christian faith That's there. There you go. Now. We knew we knew that.

51:27

Dr. Craig Is not real big on the doctrine of original sin

51:34

Because he checked it out the window with a smirk in a debate what a decade ago was

51:41

Shabir Ali Uh, well Christians don't have to believe in that, you know, just just dismissed it so he wouldn't have to defend it

51:50

So it's not like this was oh no, but there are a lot of people also going I can't believe he said that it's like Why not?

51:57

He's been saying stuff similar to that for a long long time Theology matters and theology determines apologetics

52:07

Unless you let your apologetics determine your theology which results in LCD theology, which there you go

52:16

So I wanted to let you hear in his own words What it is he said on the subject

52:24

Now we know that there are Southern Baptists that don't really believe much in original sin anymore either. You may recall just a few

52:32

I don't know What was it? April May last year somewhere around there

52:39

What was that connect to 19 or some whatever that? Southern Baptist group, you know, they're plotting out some folks in New Orleans who were questioning the doctrine of original sin and that's when we took the time to work through Romans 5 and and Talk about, you know federal headship and and all the rest that stuff that we we did at that particular point in time

53:06

Adam somebody right Just off the top of my head but What connect 316, yeah, okay

53:17

It's what was the date. Did you look that up? Is there a somewhere description of in the dividing line archives of Where we address that because we'll end up we need to look it up now because we're gonna have people asking about one way or the other so yeah, in fact, send me a send me a link on that so I can add it to the dividing line blog when we we post this so People can take a look at that.

53:45

But anyway So This wasn't overly surprising

53:52

That we know this is where William Lane Craig is and again, the differences between us come back to this very issue of What's the primary issue

54:05

Theology or apologetics for me Your theology determines the very parameters and essence of your apologetics

54:14

Never the other way around never the other way around. I've told the story before Good friend of mine at a conference where William Lane Craig is speaking

54:25

After William Lane Craig gets done speaking he comes out near the tables and He's talking with a bunch of young guys.

54:34

I know exactly how that works That's how it worked at the g3 conference after I'd speak go out to the where the tables were and we stand there and we talk and people ask questions and and You you you do your thing?

54:45

That's that's how it works. And that's great But it was close enough for my friend to hear what he was saying and I trust my friends recollect recollection of this and it seems very very

54:57

Very consistent with what I've heard from. Dr. Craig over the years and that was he said if you want to do serious apologetics

55:07

You must stop reading so much theology and start reading more philosophy and that's the exact opposite Perspective that's the exact opposite Advice that I would be giving and that's why my debates look different than his debates do

55:30

It goes back to what we believe it goes back to our theology It's just the way it works Adam Harwood.

55:36

Yes, Dort GA is correct. It was Adam Harwood so probably if you search for Adam Harwood, that'll

55:43

That'll pull it up so No, no, I'm I know for certain

55:49

I did a dividing line playing some of their Comments and then

55:56

I Specifically went through Romans 5 was that the one with the bow tie and the flowers and the because that did pop up Well, I sure hope not because if you click that first link,

56:06

I dropped out on you there well, I first one that pops up is the The study of flowers radio free

56:13

Geneva Boy, I hope not I think it is because it says you then due to the connect 316 guys you dealt with the tulip and the rose

56:24

Now, uh -uh. No, that's not it. That is not it. No, yeah, kind of fix our search parameters.

56:30

Yeah. Nope. Nope. There's a I just remember very clearly doing it and it was not screen flow.

56:36

We went through Romans chapter 5 In response to Adam Harwood's presentation and I don't think that was it so Because because that the the poinsettia thing is something different than their stuff on original sense.

56:51

That's different. That's different One more thing and then we'll wrap up here.

56:57

Let's go ahead and Switch over here Um, let's see here

57:06

I can do this there it is Chapters, okay

57:18

You could be able to pull that up I will Well, I don't know.

57:32

I've never done that before. I Had to move the desktop presenter thing out of the way because then I wouldn't be able to get to it

57:39

So you got it Okay, all right now Let's uh, let's just play this

57:48

This was 2001 Just before I shaved my head

57:54

Got rid of it. It was almost all gone, but Just before then but still four years into before I finished the weightlifting stuff.

58:03

So still a big boy Peter Stravinsky's Roman Catholic priest,

58:12

I'm sorry Byzantine Catholic priest Two PhDs Ivy League school scholar

58:24

Never bothered to even look at anything that I ever said on purgatory I had everything he had ever written on purgatory in my handspring visor.

58:32

Remember that handspring visor. Yeah Yeah, that's hey, I was I was a geek even 13 years ago

58:40

Of course I was always been one When one side studies what the other side has taught

58:51

Thoroughly and then the other side when when Chris Arnzen contacted him About debating me you can check with Chris on this.

58:59

He said well, who would I be debating James White? Oh, he's harmless That was his that was his response. So Things didn't go well for Peter Stravinsky's By the end of this debate he's pulling at his collar,

59:14

I mean he wanted to be anywhere other than where he was I Mean his opening presentation was about his conversations with Jimmy Swaggart All right, when you go into a debate with a well -prepared reformed debater and Your openings about Jimmy Swaggart You never recover from that you never recover from that so here's here's cross -examination and We got into the text

59:44

See what happens with a Roman Catholic priest two PhDs Ivy League school stuff and When you actually look at what the text says gotta find the start button here.

59:59

Let's let's see what happens Hello Beginning at verse 10

01:00:08

What is your understanding who is being discussed Contextually in this passage

01:00:15

Starting at verse well just in in first Corinthians chapter 3 in general for example when it says

01:00:23

Let let a man be verse verse 10, but let each one look to how he builds upon it who is who is being

01:00:32

Who is being discussed here? Is this? All Saints is this Christian leaders

01:00:38

Is this only who are those is it not Saints, but those who have to go to purgatory before they become Saints what?

01:00:43

How do you understand it? Well Paul is talking about himself as the as the architect who laid the foundation, correct?

01:00:50

and The process of the the planting of the gospel being done by various people.

01:00:56

Mm -hmm so the specifically the context then is referring to People who are involved in building the church.

01:01:04

Let them be careful how they build upon the foundation. I've laid we would agree with that Okay Then when he goes on to talk about this

01:01:12

Building upon the foundation with gold silver precious stones wood hay and stubble

01:01:19

What do you understand those words to refer to please? Well, he's referring and notice he changes the pronoun at that point to you

01:01:27

Which is to say the cooperation of the believer in the work of the construction of the edifice

01:01:37

Actually, he uses the indefinite there, but if anyone builds verse 12 tests is used there

01:01:42

So what does what do these things refer to then the gold silver precious stones wood? Hay stubble? What are those?

01:01:49

one's individual gifts talents, etc or the the lack thereof the the non -use of These things so that I if I have a talent that's gold and instead

01:02:04

I I don't use it. Is that perhaps straw being introduced into the edifice? Okay When it refers to the day revealing making manifest these works

01:02:19

That are being built upon the foundation that there is going to be an apocalypsis is the actual term that it'll be apocalyptized by fire

01:02:30

Is it your belief that what is being referred to here is purgatorial sufferings in regards to temporal punishments of sins?

01:02:37

I think first of all, he's talking about the day of the Lord coming into the life of the individual and Furthermore the

01:02:48

Individuals participation in that day of the Lord. Do you believe that what is being referred to in verse 13?

01:02:59

when it refers to the fire shall reveal it and Each one's work of what sort it is.

01:03:05

The fire will test That this is the fire of purgatory Well, first of all, the the church does not teach the precise nature of purgatory

01:03:18

And so I would say that this is a metaphor here as is the church's use of the metaphor of fire for purgatory

01:03:26

Has the church used this passage as a substantiation for the existence of purgatory as an indication of The primitive belief in purgatory.

01:03:35

Yes So if the primitive writers believed in purgatory and if the church has pointed to this

01:03:42

Then can we not ask concerning the nature? Not the physical nature, but the fact that this fire reveals of what sort works are

01:03:53

Would it not have to sir if it's supportive of the concept of purgatory?

01:03:59

would it not have to in this passage refer to some sort of suffering and some sort of cleansing of temporal punishments of sins not merely the demonstration of whether a church leaders

01:04:12

Motivations were pure whether his works were gold or whether they were strong elation is in itself a form of catharsis or purification

01:04:21

So revelation in testing is involving purification, um, is that what you just indicated?

01:04:30

If you reveal my flaws to me That revelation in and of itself can be purifying those who built with gold silver and precious stones

01:04:46

Also go through this fire Um, where is there any concept of these individuals needing this purification?

01:04:56

Before they enter into the presence of God. Does it not say that that they actually receive a reward that there's nothing here concerning They're needing this purification well,

01:05:09

I think it's it's the simple realization that even the just man sins seven times a day and Therefore the need for purification for the for most people so Where in the text do you have?

01:05:22

This mixture where you have people who have gold silver precious stones And they have a little wood hay and straw burned and that's their purification where where does that is that derived from from the text?

01:05:35

I'm missing your point. Well, you just indicated the just man sinned seven times. So it sounded like you were

01:05:41

Asserting that even those who built with with gold silver and precious stones

01:05:47

That they themselves are undergoing some sort of purification here. The only thing the text says is they receive a reward

01:05:56

And the others do not What is their reward? What rewards are given in purgatory?

01:06:03

heaven But they both get heaven so the the one gets something the other doesn't get in this text

01:06:09

What is it? Where does it say? The other doesn't get anything verse 15, but of a certain but if a certain words ones works are consumed

01:06:16

He shall suffer a loss yet. He himself shall be saved yet. So as by fire. He doesn't receive a misthost

01:06:21

He does not receive a reward So if the rewards heaven, then this can't be purgatory because this ends up in hell.

01:06:35

I don't see that. I'm sorry Okay, well, no, no, no, let's let's be respectful everyone.

01:06:40

Let's see if we can work through this this this fact of the matter is both these groups experienced the same testing by fire

01:06:50

But the ones who have their works remain which they have built upon the foundation verse 14 says myth on links that I they shall receive a reward a misthos but if Another one has their works which they have built which were made of wood hay and straw

01:07:09

Burned up consumed. They shall suffer loss yet. They shall be saved yet. So as through fire

01:07:16

So if this is the fire of purgatory both experienced it one gets reward if that's heaven What are the other people get do you see the point you're saying the ones whose works are burnt up get the reward?

01:07:28

No, they don't get any reward. That's what it says They suffer loss as a Miyako means to suffer a loss of something if it is burnt down He will be the loser and though he has saved himself.

01:07:36

It will be as if one who has gone through fire Wow, that's a fascinating translation

01:07:44

I'd like to pick up with that on the second second round. All right.

01:07:51

There you go. I What what do you say

01:07:58

When you walk through the text it cannot be made

01:08:03

To conform with Roman Catholic teaching you just can't it's not there you can believe in purgatory

01:08:10

You have to believe it on the authority of something other than what the Apostles of Jesus Christ gave to us that's the whole point and I'm very glad we had the opportunity of Demonstrating that in that context and as we have numerous other times as well

01:08:26

Well, it was all the subject of Roman Catholicism today. Some of you appreciate that some of you might not

01:08:31

But I thought it was relevant next time I have a feeling What the only other topic that was going to possibly get to and it might be good to hold on Because there's gonna be more coming out on this.

01:08:45

Have you heard the Bruce Jenner stuff? Yeah Bruce Jenner Transitioning if you want to have the clearest evidence in the world, there's no such thing as transitioning

01:08:57

This will provide it to us It's sad But it's a part of what's happening in our our society today.

01:09:05

So we went about 10 minutes long there But we'll be back on Thursday Lord willing and I don't know yet What we'll be talking about but who knows what's gonna develop between now and then thanks for watching.