August 12, 2022 Show with Bruce A. Ray on “Withhold Not Correction”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania. It's iron sharpens iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us. Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host Chris Arnzen.

Good.

Afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. Lake City, Florida. And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Friday on this twelfth day of August 2022 and I am so excited to have a guest on today for the very first time.

Who I have wanted to interview for quite a long time, and I'm just so thrilled that the Lord has providentially Opened up that opportunity to have him on the program today. His name will likely not be unfamiliar to Reform Baptists especially who are listening and reform people in general.

Actually his name is Bruce a Ray. And he's an author pastor emeritus of Kings Cross Church Which was formerly known as Juanita Community Church in Kirkland Washington where he served as pastor. Since 1976 Bruce is a fire police EMS chaplain a certified field traumatologist a member of the International Conference of Police chaplains the Federation of Fire Chaplains the Washington State Critical Incident Stress Management Network the International Critical Incident Stress Foundation and the American Association of Suicidology.

He is also on the executive board of fire, which is the Fellowship of Independent Reformed Evangelicals and on the Advisory Board for Northwest University's Fontaine's School of Nursing. I hope I pronounced that correctly.

You did great. We are going to be addressing a classic work by Bruce on Parenting Titled withhold not correction. We're also going to be discussing the upcoming 2022 Northwest Fire Regional Fellowship in Prineville Oregon and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to I interpret Zion Radio Bruce Ray.

Thank you, Chris. I'm very glad to be with you today.

Well tell our listeners about Kings Cross Church in Kirkland, Washington.

Kings Cross Church was a church plant of the American Sunday School Union back in the early 1900s early 1920s. I came here in 1976 that we would lose some but we didn't. I've been pastor of the church since 1970.

The combination.

Yeah, who we recently had on the program. Yes, I've had the pleasure of interviewing Baroque as well on his book Judaism is not Jewish and I've Also had the privilege to see him preach in person at the church where I was saved back in the 80s in Amityville.

Long Island, New York. So Baroque is no stranger to me stepped up out of that semi retirement mold and we have been filling the pulpit and providing leadership. While the church is a full-time pastor.

Great. Well very busy. Well, if anybody wants more information on Kings Cross Church in Kirkland, Washington Go to Kings Cross Kirk kind of Interesting play on words because Kirk and Scottish means church and it's also short for Kirkland Kings Cross Kirk org Kings Cross Kirk org and God willing we will be repeating that later on in the program that information.

Also, why don't you let us know about fire the Fellowship of Independent Reformed Evangelicals a Organization to which you belong.

Fire as 1920 or 1922. ,000 as a Formal organization so it's been in existence for about 22 years. I think about 115 churches in 13 countries and in India. Places and.

I know that one of the main mottos of fire is That phrase if and you could correct me if I'm wrong I think it may be a quote from Augustine My memory is not as sharp as it used to be but in essentials unity and non essentials liberty in all things charity that's correct and From what I understand about fire They obviously want to maintain Theological faithfulness to the scriptures and Have a strong harmony over doctrine, but it is a broader spectrum than a than the other organizations that have been known to be occupied by Reformed Baptists that might be more tight in their requirements.

Not that that's a Insult or derogatory phrase. I'm using I'm just saying that you know There are there are times when you want your organizations to be more detailed as to exactly Who should belong and you have other opportunities where you want?

The spectrum to be broader to include more men that are not exactly every jot and tittle To what each and every church and that group believes so if you want to take off where I left there.

Pastors in the process welcome them. And if I'm not mistaken.

The church is in fire or the pastors in fire are.

Baptistic in regard to the ordinances a little more. Sure. Fire has been. I think that's the testimony of of many people in fire. Spend in praying talk about hard times. They just want to talk about all of the accomplishments and blessings that it's a safe place because what's happening in my life.

Amen, if anybody wants more information about the Fellowship of Independent Reformed Evangelicals known as fire Go to fire fellowship org fire fellowship org now. Let us know something about this upcoming event the 2022 Northwest fire regional fellowship in Prineville, Oregon which is being Held specifically at the church where my friend Christopher Cookston is pastor there in Prineville Prineville Community Church.

So let us know about this event that where you will be on the rock roster to speak as you said in Prineville, Oregon and The themes may be a little odd, okay, if anybody wants more details on that event.

Go to events dot entrusted word dot org forward slash 2022 Northwest fire regional fellowship, that's events dot entrusted word org forward slash 2022 Northwest fire regional fellowship and if anybody did not Write down that URL feel free to email me at Chris Lawrence and a jeep and I will get you that information.

We have a Tradition here on iron chirping Zion radio Bruce whenever we have a first-time guest We have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony including the kind of religious atmosphere if any they were raised in and the kind of Providential circumstances our Sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that Drew them to himself and saved them.

And I would love to hear your story.

All right be happy to share that with you. I was born outside of Austin. My mom was a could you name the books again? I would. I might have with a church that I recognized later that I did not end up there.

But but in order to plea because they were very regular in attending church. The mainline churches were about didn't drive yet had to find some place close enough that I could walk to it. And in God's Providence Reformed Episcopal Church had been built just a few blocks from my home.

Your listeners may not be familiar with the Reformed Episcopal. They were a break-off from the mainstream 1800s around 1870 1872.

In fact, it was also because of the Romish.

Intrusion of the Oxford movement, I began attending there and the in again in God's Providence prayer of general confession. And there's a line in the prayer from Isaiah 50 feet have gone astray each one to where that line just.

Hit me like a like a ton of bricks. I stopped praying. It's we're not entirely pleased. In fact, they were really in Christ and Sunday morning. I was going Sunday evening. I was going to prayer meeting.

I was going to youth group. Anything that that the church offered I wanted to be there. They thought that was extreme and so we came to some conflict over that and My parents actually were sitting down with my parent obedient to you.

Praise God.

Well, when it was it? That you believed God was giving you extending to you the call and to pastoral ministry. And what were the providential circumstances that made you convinced of that?

The pastor men to go into the ministry and missions and I went to him after I told him I Understand, you know when I attended Sunday school, I knew nothing about the Bible. I didn't even know there was a a table of contents in the front.

I said turn to the book of Hebrews. I reasoned Hebrews they were the Jews in the Old Testament, right. Trying to find the book of you. How the Lord the church will recognize that. To see what I think I can do I'm picking up the bulletin so that he didn't have to.

And from there I began. I went into teaching some Sunday school by the time I was Graduating from high school. We had moved to California. I was in a conservative Baptist Church and In my senior year of high school, they gave me the opportunity to preach.

Occasionally on a Sunday evening, I think I was a whole 15 minutes. I thought I had a full sermon and.

I.

Knew I was convinced that this is what the Lord wanted me to do so that meant when I graduated from high school the education in the scripture wanted me to lose this foolishness and They insisted that I go to the university for so I thought that went through and and felt like that's not in the same category.

As before when I told them I couldn't obey on this score I thought that I could and so I went to UCLA for a year and at UCLA What I learned was that I really didn't know the Bible at all. And so instead of looking for a Christian liberal arts called more intensive program The Reformed Episcopal Seminary in Philadelphia had a program for what they called special students.

So if you didn't have your undergraduate degree You could apply as long as you could do the work. You could stay in the idea was that after you get your undergraduate degree in the Reformed Episcopal Seminary and that's the influence.

I met Students there from L. Martin's Church Trinity Baptist in Montville, New Jersey your seminary we returned to Pennsylvania and and Began attending Wayne Mac's church my understanding and appreciation for and commitment to reform theology in general and the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith in particular.

Praise God. Well, you also have a.

Addition of being a pastor you have a We have other very fascinating and honorable Elements of Your life and calling. You are a police fire and EMS chaplain as I announced during my introduction of you a certified field traumatologist and You are a member of the International Critical incident stress foundation and the American Association of Suicidology, so why don't you tell us about how the Lord made it clear that you wanted to enter into those areas of life.

That was but in 1990 expecting them to say and to my surprise you could be a blessing to the community and so they with their permission We came to look at challenge ministry of our church into the community and it did a number of things for me.

It it this is a chaplain. I I'm called out to all kinds of scenes I deal with. Most things having to do with death. So I I'm called out. I'm on call 24 7. I'm called out to suicides and homicides and overdoses and Accidental death traffic accidents were usually where death or or major injury has occurred.

The things I've also worked into rape victims of assault. I've dealt with Missing persons. I've also been involved with the hostage negotiators not doing the negotiating But helping to provide to get information to give to the neglect with the homeless in the city.

So it's given me a wide range of things and it kind of into the field. For me that was very beneficial. You in a passive get to a plane all of your time you're not having much opportunity to find out what's really happening on and So this this was healthy because it pushed me out into the world and I had opportunity to meet with people that would never darken the doors of my church or in some cases of any church and I was able to come to them and minister to them.

At the often at the worst day of their life. In the enormous loss that they've experienced in times of tragedy and crisis the department. I was very concerned when I took on the role of chaplain that the department would restrict my speech and And I suppose in some context my department our Relationship is such is that the only thing they've ever we walk a church state line.

That if somebody wants to complain about the chaplaincy parole. They can do it and be respected as long as I have the permission of the people. I'm talking to. I Can go as far as they're willing to go if if all they want to do is find out.

We have had a death in the family. I can help them with that. In some cases. I've seen people that have wandered away from the faith who have come back into the faith and I've seen other people who have been Converted through the fruitfulness of this opportunity often.

Sometimes I don't have the opportunity to to deal with spiritual issues so much on the scene itself a couple days later I'll get a call back from people who Expressed no interest in spiritual things at the dealing with wanting to have a service and they want somebody to preside or to officiate.

We'll bring you out bring that past can sit down with the family and tell them this is what I normally do. I'll bring a short message based on the scripture that I've read Etc. Etc. And we'll general service or the memorial service.

With those elements in view. So it has been a fruitful time. I Early on the the other two chaplains left I was the sole chaplain for the department for about 15 years and. And then we added another chaplain and last year two of them retired and we have three chaplains right now.

But in the course of doing that I have also developed Just it just kind of grew. I started meeting with one chaplain on Friday mornings for mutual encouragement and That's grown to a group of chaplains from North King County and South Snohomish County police and fire chaplains that we meet every Friday morning and spend an hour or two in informal training and Informal debriefing of one another from the calls that we've had.

Well, I know that you've written on the Sabbath.

And I know you've written on the the subject that we are addressing today parenting. Have you considered writing a book about this. Absolutely fascinating.

Portion of your life that has happened that ministry is that I have been to Something over a thousand deaths and I've been to more than a hundred two books on suicide in the Someone I love help someone I love or what we call suicide Survivors.

The the people send somebody in length there can fit in a shirt pocket to be given out the screen. Our Police department has them and gives them out and they've given them out as well. It's been of on counseling is biblical counseling and others.

So I've applied that in this along with information. I've picked up from other sources.

Well, I certainly want to have you come back on the program to discuss the subject of suicide as well as other things so let's keep the communication going after this program is over and By God's providence and grace get that Established so we can have you back on soon and frequently.

I'm already extremely impressed by you brother and We have to go to our first station break right now. If anybody has a question for Bruce Ray on withhold not correction And parenting in general our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris ARN Z and gmail .com.

As always give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence. You may remain anonymous if your question is a personal and private one and I can understand Why this subject might evoke? questions from people who are having very private situations in their own homes with raising their children or their grandchildren and you would not want to Identify yourself because of problems that have occurred due to your Disciplining them and all kinds of reasons why you'd want to remain anonymous.

I can understand that but if it's just a general question a question about what the Bible teaches on this issue Etc. Please give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence. We'll be right back with Bruce Ray right after these messages.

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We're now back with Bruce right and we are discussing his book with withhold not correction and If you have a question send it to Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Obviously, this is the title is taken from Proverbs 23 13 Withhold not correction from the child with other books That have been available for decades on Christian parenting.

Why is it that you felt the need or at least a very strong desire? To add this work to what is already available on the.

Shelves and libraries of Christians all over the United States in the world. For that matter that church we gathered.

By the way my mother my mother when I was growing up Was constantly when she was calling me was accidentally calling the dog's name Tammy. I mean Chris.

Was that was less than satisfactory I we struggled because neither one of those authors I felt had begun with the scriptures. They had begun in other places and. And they both you'll congregation there in Delaware.

We took a summer and I preached a series of messages in 1973. Was about 25 or 26. He passed the title on to you've had this book and You've been sitting on it for a while. In the meantime Charlie Craig had been in touch with me up into my book and it Kind of disappeared.

He was interested in publishing it and I told him well, it's in the hands of a different publisher. So finally the publisher who held the book came back and the editor told me that well They would like me like me to edit the book and bring it the reason that that's because I'm seeking to take you to stink to the whole area and.

So I told him no, I'm not going to do that. I got back in touch with Charlie Craig at PNR and Charlie said to me and I thought that's version that's out there now. It's actually from 1978. When I completed the expansion and it's been in print with he tells me that it is a steady Dobson or but it's been a steady seller and I get lots of reports from parents and now I have kids who tell me they grew up under that book and They use it with their kids.

And so it's been interesting to see it still in print after all these years.

Well, praise God and we're going to be getting far more into detail about this book and about parenting and about disciplining children from a biblical perspective the only perspective that a Christian should obey and utilize and We're going to be doing that right after our midway break.

This is the longer than normal break folks. So please be patient every day in the middle of the show. We have a longer break because Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida Requires of us a longer break because the FCC requires of them to localize Geographically this show and all of their programming to Lake City, Florida with their own public service announcements and other local things.

So we will be airing our globally heard commercials while they do that and please Respond to those ads as often as you can please because we depend upon our advertisers to exist even if you just thank them.

For sponsoring the show that should go a long way and also of course send in your questions to Bruce way. To Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages.

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Such a blessing to hear from iron sharpens iron radio listeners from all over the world. Here's Joe Riley a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show. He really loves hearing interviewed.

Dr. Joe. More craft.

I'm Joe Riley a faithful iron sharpens iron radio listener here in a toy in County Kildare, Ireland. Going back to 2005 one of my very favorite guests on iron sharpens iron is dr Joe more craft. If you've been blessed by iron sharpens iron radio, dr More craft and heritage Presbyterian Church of coming, Georgia are largely thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

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Call 7 1 7 2 5 8 4 6 8 8. Today. When iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.

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As a mother I was looking for a magazine That would include devotionals that I could quickly do before school. And had theology and doctrine made very simple for children to understand that they could read themselves.