August 14, 2024 Show with Dr. Ardel Caneday & Special Co-Host Levi Secord on “Political Engagement in Light of the Lordship of Christ” (Part 3)

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer
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Well, I'm excited to be conducting part three of an interview that we began a couple of weeks ago.
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This is the third and final interview that we are conducting on the theme, Political Engagement in Light of the
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Lordship of Christ. And this is being conducted in part to promote an upcoming
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Bible conference featuring my guest today and my co -host.
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And I am delighted to have, first of all, my returning co -host, who is
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Levi Secord, and he is founding pastor of Christ Bible Church of Roseville, Minnesota.
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It's great to have you back on the program, serving as my co -host, brother. It's great to be back.
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And this time around, our guest today, who is a first -time guest on the
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Iron Trip and Zion Radio, is Dr. Ardell Canaday, professor of New Testament Studies and Greek, retired at the
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University of Northwestern in St. Paul, Minnesota. He is an author, and he is a teaching elder at Christ Bible Church of Roseville, Minnesota, and board member of the new website,
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ChristOverAll .com. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Dr.
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Ardell Canaday. Thank you very much, Chris. I appreciate the opportunity.
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It's great to be here. Well, let me go back to my co -host today, Levi Secord.
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Please tell our listeners who did not hear the previous two interviews that we've conducted on this subject, tell our listeners about Christ Bible Church of Roseville, Minnesota.
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We are a church that began in February of 2021 out of some like -minded churches here in the area.
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We exist to glorify God by bringing all of Christ into all of life. The Lord has been incredibly kind and gracious to us over the last three and a half years.
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We are a growing congregation in more than one way, and we are incredibly grateful for all the mercies of God and that to be able to bring in men like Brad Green and Steve Wellum from Southern Seminary and Christ Overall and then
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Ardell. We had the honor to bring in Virgil Walker and Daryl Harrison a few years ago as well.
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Looks like we might be bringing in some other gentlemen in a year or two as well. The Lord's been great and kind to us.
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We seek to engage every facet of life, to take every thought captive in obedience to Christ.
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And that's kind of what we're trying to do here with this conference, by touching on an area of life that the church has been told by those both inside it and out of it that we can't talk about.
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But if you read your Bible, you realize that that's not true. And so we're going to try to provide some shepherding in this most urgent area of life in our current cultural chaos.
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And Christ Bible Church is a church dedicated to the doctrines of sovereign grace, correct?
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Correct. We are Baptistic and Calvinistic. Amen. Just as am
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I. And tell us about this conference in more detail that's coming up on September 20th and the 21st.
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Yeah. So we've noticed not only in the culture, but within the church, this raging debate as to what is the proper
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Christian view of political engagement, Christian view of church state relationships, Christian view of moral and civil law and biblical law.
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And we thought that some of the discussion has been helpful. Some of it has been not as helpful.
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And particularly from the Baptist side. I think some of my Baptist brothers who I love aren't thinking about this well biblically.
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And so we wanted to offer a distinctly biblical and Baptist perspective on what does it look like, church state relationship,
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Christian view of the state, et cetera. And Steve Wellum, Brad Green, Ardell are all parts of Christ Overall.
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I occasionally write for them as well. And so we kind of want to apply that framework that Christ Overall is doing, that Christ is indeed over everything, and apply it to this area of life in a focused conference during an election year where lots of people are asking lots of questions.
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Well, if you want more information on Christ Bible Church in Roseville, Minnesota, and the upcoming conference,
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September 20th and 21st, go to Christ Bible dotnet, Christ Bible dotnet.
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And we will be repeating that, God willing, later on in the program. Well, Ardell, as you know, on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, we have a tradition whenever we have a first time guest, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony that would include the kind of religious atmosphere in which they were raised, if any, and the kinds of providential circumstances our sovereign
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Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to himself and saved them. And we would love to hear your story.
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Well, the Lord delivered me from a vile life of sinfulness, not by conversion in later life, but by putting me into a
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Christian family from birth. I never knew a day in my life that I did not hear the gospel and believe the gospel.
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Whatever that does to one's theology, I was converted very early.
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I do not remember not believing in Jesus Christ and seeking to obey him.
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And for that, I'm very grateful that my parents were Christians and that they brought me up in the gospel, reading the scriptures every day.
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In fact, when I was a young boy up through about my 12th year, maybe the 13th year, we read the scriptures morning and evening as a family.
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So we went through the scriptures, the whole Bible, more than once every year, probably once at one and a half times through every year.
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So I knew the scriptures very well. And I could win games very easily at Bible trivia.
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But unfortunately, I didn't have a very adequate comprehension of how the
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Bible hangs together in terms of the biblical storyline. And so I did not really acquire that until post
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Bible college. And I went on to do biblical studies in Grace Theological Seminary in Winona Lake, Indiana.
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And there I began to get a very much, much more of a holistic worldview understanding of the scriptures, the storyline from Genesis creation to new creation, reaching through the book of Revelation.
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And so I have made a career then in the ministry of the gospel since my seminary days.
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I did an internship and kind of an extended ministerial internship, putting to putting to use my skills as a woodworker.
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So I as a matter of fact, I made a better living as a woodworker than I ever have since.
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But since then, I have taught at various institutions and visiting professorships.
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But from 1992 onward, I have taught at University of Northwestern here in St.
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Paul, Minnesota, and have taught any number of courses.
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But my main focus has been New Testament and Greek. I did my doctoral studies under Doug Moo at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School.
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Studied under him, Murray Harris, Donald Carson and others of great renown and benefited immensely from those studies.
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But it was, I would say, my ministry in church that really enhanced my capability as a teacher in the classroom so that my ministry in the classroom has always been that of a minister of the gospel.
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So I saw a number of conversions during my years of teaching at Northwestern, as well as significant growth.
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I didn't have the privilege of teaching Levi, but I knew of Levi when he was a student at Northwestern.
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But I'm very grateful for my upbringing. I was delivered and spared from so much sin that it's enriched me immensely having grown up in a
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Christian family. And my faith is deeply rooted in my parents' faith and in the faith of many in my family, my grandfather, my grandmother and others as well.
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That gives you an overview of my upbringing and where I am today. Well, I had the privilege of hearing
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Dr. Moo preach a couple of times here in Pennsylvania at a
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Bible conference years ago, the John Bunyan conference. And I look forward to having him on the program.
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And you have just reminded me, actually, to get a hold of him and try to get him on the program.
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I remember being very blessed hearing him speak, and I hope to have him back on the show or have him on the show,
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I should say, for the first time. Good. When did you come to discover the doctrines of grace in this journey of yours as a
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Christian? It was during my first year as an MDiv student at Grace Theological Seminary.
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And what there were a number of resources that that helped me, ironically, one of the one of the sources that helped me was reading a little book by John R.
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Rice with the title Predestined for Hell? No. The reasoning and argument of that book was so bad that it compelled me to recognize that scripture, in fact, does speak about and teach a predestination.
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But a couple of other books that were very instrumental in shaping me early, one by J.
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I. Packer, Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God. Yeah. A little book, but a wonderful book.
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And another one by J .C. Ryle, Holiness. Those two books
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I treasure immensely, and I will cling to those books until the day I die.
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Amen. Well, I'm going to give our listeners our email address. If you have questions for our guests today,
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Ardell Canaday on political engagement, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com.
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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail dot com. As always, give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence.
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Well, I know that your theme at the upcoming conference.
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Is on biblical law, and if you could perhaps break down in more detail how this is going to apply to the conversation of political engagement in light of the
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Lordship of Christ. Biblical law is a massive subject.
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And there is a lot there are a lot of rabbit trails one could take, and there are a lot of elements that might introduce confusion.
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The word that is translated into our English Bibles law has within the
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Greek New Testament, as well as the Hebrew Old Testament, a variety of of meanings.
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So, for example, law might be a reference to simply the scriptures.
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So the New Testament, Paul, Jesus, they both use law as a reference to scripture.
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Jesus frequently speaks of the law and the prophets or the law and the prophets and the writings.
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Paul speaks the same way and sometimes speaks of simply the law. But that use of the word law is a reference to the scriptures, the whole
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Old Testament. But there are other uses of the word law as well that that are rather important for us to recognize, because law simply refers on many occasions to the law of God that is referring to his character.
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At other times, it is simply referring to the Pentateuch, the law in terms of the first five books of Moses, or sometimes law and frequently, particularly in Paul's letters, law refers to the
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Mosaic covenant, which has to be distinguished from the Pentateuch and which has to be distinguished from the
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Pentateuch or the five books as scripture. So that the law is a reference to the covenant that God made with Moses.
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And this is a typical way that Paul uses the word law in his letter to the
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Galatians, for example. Sometimes the law is simply a reference to the
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Ten Commandments, the Decalogue. Now, when we consider the biblical law or law as impinging upon us as citizens of a country that is not in a covenant with God, as Israel was, we need to be careful how we understand and how we bring it to bear upon our situation, our culture and our citizens.
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But at the same time, we have to recognize and acknowledge that our nation was founded in such a way that the biblical law had a very significant grounding effect for the founding of this nation.
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And thus, we properly honor Moses at the
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Supreme Court of the United States. And we have throughout history properly honored
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Moses in various courthouses throughout the land with postings of the
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Ten Commandments. And that, of course, is a controversy that is even brewing right now with various states, particularly
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Louisiana, calling for the
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Ten Commandments being posted in courthouses or also in various other places in schools.
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How do we bring all of this to bear upon us? And that's a big question because the
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New Testament makes it very clear that the Old Covenant is passed away.
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And if the Old Covenant is the Mosaic covenant that has to do with the law itself, the
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Ten Commandments, the Decalogue, which is a summation of that covenant, how are we to understand how we are then to relate to the
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Ten Commandments, the Mosaic covenant? How are we to understand ourselves as Christians and how are we to understand ourselves as American citizens related to that?
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Is there any relationship? Are there any elements there that are instructive for us?
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That's what I seek to, I will seek to unpack for us without getting all entangled in some of the side discussions that might take us far afield from our objective.
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But that's generally what we're going to be seeking to do is unpack how we're to understand biblical law and how biblical law bears upon us as a nation.
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Does it bear upon us? And if it does, how does it bear upon us?
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And we'll have to see how that is dealt with, particularly in the founding of our country.
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And we're going to be entering into our first commercial break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, once again, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.
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As always, give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence. Please only remain anonymous.
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If your question involves a personal and private matter, let's say it has something to do with the church where you're a member and you are not pleased with how your church is either involved or inactive in political engagement.
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There's something about the topic that displeases you in regard to your own church. That would be an understandable reason to remain anonymous.
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And there may be many others. And we'll grant your request if it's a personal and private matter. But please, if it's a general question, give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence.
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Please don't go away. We'll be right back. I'm Pastor Keith Allen of Linbrook Baptist Church, a
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At Linbrook Baptist Church, we believe the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the inspired
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Word of God, inherent in the original writings, complete as the revelation of God's will for salvation and the supreme and final authority in all matters to which they speak.
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We believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. This salvation is based upon the sovereign grace of God, was purchased by Christ on the cross, and is received through faith alone, apart from any human merit, works, or ritual.
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In the film Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt
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Dr. Ardell Canaday, and we are discussing political engagement in light of the
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Lordship of Christ, send it to chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com.
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Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. And before I go to a question from my co -host,
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Pastor Levi Secord, Dr. Canaday, what is perhaps the most common scenario that you have experienced, that you have witnessed when people who have the same
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Bible what you do, people who can get an exact same understanding of God's law as you can glean from the scriptures through exegesis, and yet for some reason they are not approaching, they are not approaching the subject of political engagement in the light of Lordship of Christ the way you think a biblically faithful Christian should.
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What are these common errors you're seeing? Well, there's so many, so many ways that people differ on these matters.
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But one thing that stands out, for example, is taxation.
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Taxation is a form of confiscating wealth in one form or another, particularly income tax.
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And or redistribution of people's wealth. Confiscation, redistribution, people have vastly different responses to these issues.
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And many people have no response at all or a very offensive response or a rejecting response when challenged on this.
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So sure, there is a legitimate taxation that needs to fund government.
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But when we take money from one person and give it to another person, and the government is the agent that does that and does it very, very poorly.
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Scripture has something to say about that. Or another issue that is really at the top of the list today is sexuality and the notion that there are certain special rights that are being trampled on by Christians with regard to those who are of a same sex practice and orientation.
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Again, Scripture speaks very clearly to that. And we don't have to go to the Ten Commandments in order to understand that.
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We can recognize that from creation itself, the very design of God for humans.
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We're made in the image of God, male and female. He created them, and that's just the way it is.
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So those are a couple of examples, but there are many others that we could point to as well.
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But that probably suffices. And Levi, is
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Levi Secord there? I guess Levi, I guess we lost him. That's strange.
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Well, we hope that Levi joins us. I'm not sure how that happened. Well, the issue about this subject has, sadly, like many issues in the body of Christ, has created very often more heat than light.
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It has caused Christians to cease having fellowship with their brothers and sisters over issues, over differences on political engagement.
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And don't we need to really always approach these issues with humility?
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As passionate as we may be and as vital as we believe our opinions are, don't we have to be careful not to basically blow our testimonies and to be overly hostile or overly sectarian in regard to our understanding of the subject?
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We certainly do. And I think that we can aid in doing that by recognizing that and helping people understand that there are already significant points of contact between people, between us and others, even those who have no regard whatsoever for the
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Scriptures, who are not Christians at all. There are significant elements of overlap and points of contact that we have with them.
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For example, we recognize that everybody lives in a seven -day week.
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Where did that come from? That seven -day week is not something that humans constructed.
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It's a God -ordained thing. And we need to recognize that and tap into that as a point of contact.
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And what happens with a seven -day week? Virtually everybody takes off at least one day a week and relaxes away from one's rest.
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And where did that come from? Well, that comes from not the Ten Commandments per se, but it comes right out of God's ordering of his creation from the very beginning.
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God himself did this. As a matter of fact, we don't work 24 hours a day.
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We work portions of days and then we take time off and we're imitating
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God. So everybody is imitating God to one degree or another, whether they acknowledge it or not.
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And the same people who are doing this are also imitating
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God in one way or another, even if they don't acknowledge it, by way of personal property.
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And they have a proper sense that their personal property belongs to them and not another.
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So that when there is theft, theft isn't a socially constructed idea.
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Theft is a God -constructed idea. It's from the beginning.
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Personal property entails possession and theft of that personal property is a sin.
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It's a sin that God himself has marked out.
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And so lying, and it's another observable thing, for example, that people tend to be monogamous.
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Even those who have divorced and remarried tend to be monogamous. Where did that idea come from?
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Where did the idea that a man and a woman who are married or cohabit together should be loyal to one another?
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Well, it's embedded in the created order itself. So that God has infused into his created order his own law.
40:07
And it is that which we need to tease out and to recognize so that when we live as citizens in this country or any country, we need to recognize that there is such a thing as law and it is a
40:28
God -ordained thing. And especially now in a year of election, we need to work at this and to help people understand that it is this embedded law into God's created order from which we ought to develop our policies, our political platforms.
40:51
And when there is a political party that develops a platform that is markedly different from another, and that other political platform is very antithetical to God's ordered creation and the law that is embedded in that created order, such as heavy taxation, significant redistribution of wealth, easy on crime, prosecuting very rigorously
41:28
Christians who, if they are violating the law, they're violating the law only because they are caring for, for example, the lives of infants in the wombs of mothers.
41:43
And so, and being prosecuted for such crimes, we need to recognize that one party that has a platform that is defending the life of an infant, that is defending personal property and prosecuting and seeks to prosecute criminals and wickedness that is criminal, we need to recognize that there is a vast difference between these two parties.
42:20
And it is, that recognition is rooted in biblical law. And we have been joined again by Pastor Levi.
42:27
We thought he went off in a huff because he was insulted by something we said, but he's back.
42:33
Not quite. Pastor Levi, you have a question for our brother?
42:40
Yeah, Ardell, we spoke a little bit about this on Sunday after church. Paul talks about the lawful use of the law in 1st
42:50
Timothy 1. So, it seems like in your, in your categorization, you laid out at the beginning that this is speaking about moral law, right?
42:59
And it's speaking about an application to evildoers so that this is kind of outside of the covenant.
43:05
So, it seems to be a biblical text that is talking about the moral law or eternal law of God, however you want to phrase it, applied outside of a redemptive covenant.
43:15
What do you think about that? Yeah, I think that that's what Paul is talking about.
43:21
Paul is not there in 1st Timothy 1, verse 8, speaking explicitly about the
43:28
Mosaic covenant, the Ten Commandments. He's speaking about God's law, but God's law as it is revealed.
43:38
And it is revealed and made known. And it can be used lawfully or unlawfully because Paul speaks of this.
43:49
He says, now we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully. Understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just, that is for the righteous, but for the lawless, the unrighteous, the disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners.
44:06
And then he lists a number, unholy, profane, those who strike fathers and mothers, murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice homosexuality, enslavers of fellow humans, liars, perjurers, and so forth.
44:26
And so what Paul is speaking about there is that which is embedded in our very natures by way of the image of God.
44:40
That is, God has instilled within every one of us a conscience and a knowledge of what is right and true and holy and good.
44:50
But because of sin, humans run in the opposite direction, as Scripture makes very clear, and especially as Paul argues in Romans 1.
45:04
And so what is the function of law? The law is a restrainer. It's intended to restrain sin, and that is what
45:16
Paul is getting at. Yes, make sure, I'm not sure what was happening there. You did get garbled for a few seconds,
45:23
Dr. Canidae. So make sure you always have your mouth near whatever microphone you're using.
45:32
Are you both there? Just want to check. Levi? Yep, I'm here. Okay. We have a listener,
45:41
Micah in Totavi, New Mexico. I'm assuming that's the way to pronounce it.
45:48
T -O -T -A -V -I. Micah wants to know, what is your opinions, and I will hear the answers from both your guest and your co -host, because they are both pastors, on Christians choosing the lesser of two evils when voting for a political candidate?
46:09
And let's start with Ardell, and then we could have Pastor Levi chime in. In most of life, when we're dealing with fellow humans who are sinners, especially those who are not particularly confessing
46:27
Christians, we do deal with people whose worldviews, whose belief systems are different from ours.
46:38
And every candidate that I have voted for from my beginning way back when
46:45
I was 21 until now, every candidate that I have voted for, including those that I really loved quite dearly and actually have met some, every one of them
47:02
I voted for not because we agreed perfectly, but because there was much greater overlap in their worldviews and mine.
47:13
And so, it's always a truth that every time I have voted, I have voted for the lesser of two evils.
47:20
But I would put it more positively, I have always voted for those whose worldview and mine overlap significantly.
47:31
And Pastor Levi? Yeah, I think this is one of those areas in which when how a person frames the question tells you what they already think the answer is.
47:41
And so, when we talk about the lesser of two evils, you're saying that I'm already linked into making an evil choice, and none of us as Christians want to make an evil choice.
47:50
So, I think it's a trap question. It's a trick question. It's not an honest question. It gets thrown out there all the time.
47:57
Francis Schaeffer talked about, not this in relation to voting, but in life in general, that if we demand perfection or nothing in this life, we will get nothing.
48:06
He says nothing can be more cruel than demanding perfection from sinners, whether you're doing it as a spouse towards your spouse, a parent towards your children, a pastor towards your congregation, that if you insist on getting perfection or nothing, you're going to get nothing every time.
48:20
As Christians, we don't believe in a utopia until Christ returns.
48:27
Things aren't going to be perfect until then. So, we have to, as he says, live with the actual potential, real human potential that we have in front of us.
48:35
I agree with him on that. And so, I think the better way to ask the question is not, can
48:40
Christians choose the lesser of two evils? That's just not a fair question. The question is, which of the options is the most righteous choice for us to make?
48:49
And I think when you frame the question that way, it's a more fair question, and then the answer becomes clear.
48:55
If you're looking at the two political parties, one is far more righteous, though flawed, than the other.
49:01
And as I've said elsewhere, there is not a single major policy position in which the
49:07
Democrat leftism of our day is more righteous than the GOP alternative. Does the
49:13
GOP need to become more righteous? A hundred times, amen. Right? But between the two realistic options, one is far more righteous than the other, and every
49:21
Christian, I think, has a duty to vote in accordance with that. Okay, we have Greco in Goodlettsville, Tennessee.
49:30
And Greco asks, can a Christian in good conscience and not committing sin refrain from voting altogether?
49:44
And I'll throw in a question of my own, and we'll have Ardell start. I'll throw in an addition to his question, especially on occasions when the only two candidates that have a realistic choice of winning an election are absolutely horrendously anti -Christian in the platform in which they are candidating.
50:11
In such a situation where the candidates are equally horrendous,
50:18
I would say that a conscientious non -voting would be certainly a fitting vote.
50:28
But generally, we don't have equally bad candidates.
50:34
And I would make the case that we ought to be voting much more on platform and policy than we are on individuals.
50:45
And so we need to assess the policies of these candidates very carefully and vote accordingly.
50:53
And so in such situations where there is a candidate who is clearly on the side of things that are fundamentally against the order that God has established in his creation, life, freedom, and so forth, one has to conscientiously cast the ballot against that.
51:23
And cast a ballot against that that is going to count maximally. Third party in national elections, for example, for president are hardly very effective in going against such ungodly worldviews or policies.
51:50
So I think we need to be prepared always to cast a ballot.
51:56
And Pastor Levi, we may have to break up your question in two parts because we're quickly approaching the midway break.
52:03
Do you want to start answering the question or do you want to wait? I can start. I think theoretically, in our world, there could come a time where, yes, conscientiously, the righteous thing is to not vote.
52:16
Your two options are Hitler versus Stalin. Don't. Don't vote for either.
52:24
I'm going to agree with all Ardell on this. I don't think we're at that point. I don't think it's particularly close to that point.
52:32
I would say that if today, if somebody says, I'm going to consciously, even though I'm able to vote and I'm not going to go to protest,
52:40
I think that's likely. I'm not talking about somebody who hard times falls on them. Something unexpected happens.
52:47
I think this idea that you're actually pious by not voting is a dereliction of duty because we are little governors in our form of government.
52:56
And so we have an obligation with the authority delegated to us by our laws to use that authority to the best of our ability and refusing to use it is a dereliction of duty.
53:07
Well, we have to go to our midway break. Please be patient with us, folks. The midway break is always a little longer than the other breaks.
53:14
Please use this time wisely. Try to respond to as many of our advertisers as possible, keeping in mind that the finances that come through our advertisers is what keep
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53:31
Dr. Ardell Canaday, to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
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We'll be right back. Please do not go away. It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world.
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Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland, going back to 2005.
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Before I return to my guest, Ardell Canaday, and my co -host today,
01:07:37
Levi Secord, we have some important reminders. If you really love this show, folks, and you don't want it to go off the air, please go to ironsharpensironradio .com,
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01:11:14
Ardell Canaday on political engagement in light of the Lordship of Christ.
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That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. And by the way,
01:11:27
Pastor Levi, I wanted to announce to our listeners that you're going to be returning as the guest on Ironsharpensiron Radio on Tuesday, the 27th of August, which is coming up in two weeks.
01:11:43
If you could let our listeners know what you have in store for them. Well, you've asked me to talk about my article for World Opinions online about Tim Walz as the governor here in Minnesota and what we can expect from an administration informed by him.
01:12:02
Great. Well, mark your calendars, folks, when Pastor Levi Secord will be on the show as the guest
01:12:09
Tuesday, the 27th of August, four to six p .m. eastern time on Ironsharpensiron Radio.
01:12:17
Before I have you ask a question of your own, Pastor Levi, we have a listener named
01:12:23
Michael in Wisconsin. And Michael, if you're still listening, please shoot me an email with the city in Wisconsin that you're writing from.
01:12:33
Michael has two questions. Number one, and we'll have Ardell start.
01:12:40
What is your opinion on the statement worldview is more important than theological accuracy?
01:12:46
Well, I think that may be slightly off the topic, but if you could, Ardell, explain or answer that.
01:12:57
Well, worldview is more important than doctrinal accuracy.
01:13:06
The two, of course, are inseparable. Worldview comes out of a proper reading of the scriptures.
01:13:16
However, I would make the case that there are significant overlaps between and among us as Christians, though we do have various disagreements doctrinally.
01:13:36
I think of a dear brother that is a good friend of mine, Robert Gagnon.
01:13:44
He and I are not on the same page. Doctrinally with regard to Calvinism, but I know of no one who is more courageous and clear on issues of today, particularly on the issue of same -sex relationships.
01:14:08
Yes. He is a dear brother. The cost of his career, his courageous stance against homosexuality, because he was a professor at a
01:14:17
PCUSA seminary and got expelled or fired because of his view. That's correct.
01:14:26
So we find significant agreement across the spectrum doctrinally, and we have to acknowledge that— don't we,
01:14:38
I think, have to acknowledge ourselves that we often believe better than we speak concerning our beliefs.
01:14:49
And I'm of such a position that I think that we have to be generous wherein we may doctrinally disagree, but in large measure, we have agreements.
01:15:01
We need to capitalize on those. And for example, another point that I have many friends who are
01:15:09
Presbyterians and I'm a Baptist, but the issue of water, the issue of paedo -baptism or credo -baptism does not separate us when it comes to matters of worldview issues that touch very significantly upon the political life of our nation.
01:15:30
And the same thing is true with Roman Catholics. I have friends who are Roman Catholics who are significant individuals with regard to speaking against and standing firmly with regard to right to life and marriage and so forth.
01:15:48
And our agreements are so important that, yes, we have doctrinal disagreements, but we can discuss those.
01:15:58
But wherein we have these larger, much more worldview bearings upon our political, cultural, social lives,
01:16:08
I think we need to cooperate and work together and assist one another in moving forward in advancing the cause of the gospel.
01:16:19
And then we can have those discussions along the sideline. And Pastor Levi, do you want to add anything?
01:16:27
Yeah, I think I would largely echo what Ardell is saying here, and that makes sense because we started the church together.
01:16:34
A worldview flows from doctrine. If you're thinking right about worldview, worldview is just Christian theology and Christian doctrine applied to all of life.
01:16:44
So you can't draw too much of a line from it. But I think what the listener is asking is,
01:16:50
I think what he means by this is cultural engagement or how we're understanding the culture is becoming more important than necessarily agreeing on all second and third tier doctrines.
01:17:01
And in that vein, I'm very, very sympathetic to that. And Ardell's getting at that as well, is there are people who
01:17:09
I agree with on believer's baptism, who I agree with on Calvinism, who have seemed to jump the shark on cultural issues, who have to varying degrees swallowed different forms of critical theory.
01:17:24
And the problem with critical theory is that it's intentionally designed to deconstruct. And it's intentionally designed to have
01:17:30
Christianity as one of the main things it's seeking to deconstruct. So I fear not so much for a lot of those brothers today, but I fear those who will follow in their footsteps in a generation or two.
01:17:41
We've seen this happen so many times with theological liberalism that as the consequence of their ideas works itself out, the apostasy eventually comes.
01:17:50
And so I do think that there's a kernel in truth of what this individual is asking us about is that if somebody is compromising on these cultural things and isn't seeing them rightly, it's probably because they have some deficiencies in their doctrine.
01:18:03
And they've also become synchronistic with some brand of deconstructionism in critical theory, and that will bring death to the church.
01:18:12
Yeah, and he, our listener, Michael in Wisconsin, seems to clarify the first question by the second question.
01:18:20
Many strong gospel preaching churches that are Calvinistic and Baptistic focus heavily on theology, but rarely engage with culture and politics or think about developing a
01:18:33
Christian worldview for their members. Why do you think this is the case?
01:18:38
And Ardell, if you'd care to comment. Whoa, that's a big question. And it gets to motives.
01:18:47
But generally, I would say this, that we, for example, at Christ Bible Church, planted the church with a deliberate intention of engaging the culture, critiquing the culture, and applying the scriptures weekly as the text presents itself and as a text warrants it.
01:19:18
And I think that the fundamental problem that we are encountering than the one that Levi and I and our elders have had to overcome, and that is fear of being opposed.
01:19:35
We all have a desire to be liked, and we live in a social media world that capitalizes on being liked.
01:19:47
But we need to put to death our cravings to be liked, and we need to stand fully and firmly in obedience to Christ.
01:19:59
And wherein the gospel compels us to address the things in the larger culture, we need to do so.
01:20:07
So I think that the real fundamental issue is that we need to put to death the craving to be liked and to be applauded.
01:20:21
Okay, any final additions yourself, Levi? Yeah, I think a lot of this has to do with pastors have largely been trained in their seminaries and in Bible college to not do worldview formation, to not take the step outside of the family and the church, and apply the clear teaching of scriptures to larger things.
01:20:40
This was what much of Francis Schaeffer's work was about, and then also Nancy Piercy. She calls it a secular -sacred divide.
01:20:48
We have this upper story and lower story. And we keep the church in the upper story of the private experiential reality, the lower story of facts.
01:20:55
We have science and government down there, and culture, and we don't want to engage in that because we've got this fundamental dichotomy between how we think about the
01:21:03
Christian faith in life. And so we partition off the Christianity from the lower sphere of life.
01:21:09
And as Piercy points out, this is undeniably not what the Protestant Reformation wanted.
01:21:15
This is undeniably the exact opposite of what the Protestant Reformation was all about. We want to bring all of life under the authority of God and his word.
01:21:24
And so we have to, I think, attack that privatization of the faith that is only private and kill it with extreme prejudice.
01:21:34
And before I go to another listener, Burgess in Bloomington, Minnesota, do you have a question of your own for Dr.
01:21:42
Ardell, Pastor Levi? Do I? I don't think so.
01:21:48
Okay. I don't either, no. Okay. By the way, Michael in Wisconsin, if you are a first -time listener, or should
01:21:57
I say first -time questioner, please give us your full mailing address because you have won a free, brand new,
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And that goes for anybody listening who is a first -time questioner. Burgess in Bloomington, Minnesota, asks, very often, very godly men and women will say they have a hard time voting for a political candidate, even if he is clearly by far the better of two choices and his platform most closely aligns to the
01:22:43
Christian faith because of the individual's immoral life and beliefs in other areas outside of the political arena.
01:22:53
Can a person vote for someone in such a condition? And I guess what they mean by should a
01:23:01
Christian, I'm assuming Burgess means should a Christian vote for somebody like that who may be an immoral slob, but they're pro -life at least.
01:23:14
They are opposed to abortion at least in most cases.
01:23:20
I mean, I wish, for instance, Donald Trump was against all murder of unborn children.
01:23:28
And I hate the fact that he has been influenced by Sean Hannity and other people who are terrified of Republicans being too strong against abortion because he is only looking at the winning or losing of an election.
01:23:47
But how do you handle a situation like that and remain an
01:23:53
Orthodox Christian? And Ardell, what would you have to say about that? Well, I would remind everybody that it is only within the last generation or so that we have really gotten access to the private lives of candidates other than those occasional or incidental exposures of their private lives.
01:24:20
And it's largely due to the fact that we have internet. And so people are becoming much more knowledgeable and aware of these things.
01:24:31
But candidates for office throughout the history of the
01:24:38
United States, for example, many of them have been engaged in immoralities, drunkenness, things like this.
01:24:50
And so people were voting for candidates based on policies with the assumption that these candidates are reasonably decent individuals.
01:25:02
And so it continues to this day. I remember back in 1980 when
01:25:11
President Ronald Reagan was elected. He was the first man elected to the presidency who was divorced and remarried.
01:25:21
Did that cause me to be hesitant to vote for him? No, because of his policies, his worldview.
01:25:31
And that's my concern. I think that we need to become policy -oriented individuals and recognize that then how did these individuals in their lower offices function with regard to the policies that they are now advocating?
01:25:52
Did they do well or did they not? And it's a no -brainer and as far as I'm concerned,
01:25:59
President Trump has already proved himself with four years of policies, policymaking and presiding over his policies that shows that he is reasonably a trustworthy individual.
01:26:15
And so is he perfect? No, but I'm not voting for a pastor. I'm voting for policies.
01:26:21
I'm voting for policies that I believe are necessary to sustain this republic.
01:26:28
So I think we need to deal rather clearly with that issue, that it's policies that should govern our ballot casting.
01:26:43
And in reference to Donald Trump, he is certainly not guilty of what most leftists are accusing him of.
01:26:54
Exactly, correct. And on top of that, some of the things he's being accused of,
01:27:01
I wish he was guilty of, quote, quote, guilty. For instance,
01:27:07
I am reminded every time these leftists, not only who are political figures, but who are pundits in the media or hosts of left -wing radio programs or television programs,
01:27:22
I'm reminded that when most of the time they are hurling vicious, nasty accusations, anger -fueled accusations against Trump, they're really hurling them at Christians because, like for instance, they will say things like, we can't vote for Trump because he wants to bring an end to abortion for any and all reasons.
01:27:55
Well, I want that to happen, but Trump doesn't. We can't have
01:28:03
Trump in the White House because he's homophobic. He is against homosexuals. No, he's not.
01:28:11
I wish he was. I mean, we could go on and on like that. I mean, he agrees.
01:28:18
Go ahead, go ahead. What you got to realize is that they're trying to manipulate you with this argument.
01:28:25
They want to use your good Christian morals as a tool to advance their immorality.
01:28:31
That's what they're doing so that they can get you to stay at home so that they can do evil as they know, as well as anybody else who's been paying attention knows, that the largest voting bloc that supported
01:28:41
Trump were evangelical. So they want to use your righteous morality as a tool to advance evil, and we can't let them do that.
01:28:51
And again, Ardell's point is well made. We're not voting for a pastor.
01:28:56
We're voting for a president. If you needed surgery and there was no Christian surgeon, would you not pick the best surgeon available?
01:29:03
And even if there was a Christian surgeon and he was terrible at his job, wouldn't you still pick the unbeliever who was good at his job?
01:29:10
Yeah, this is not asking for who is going to come into your church and preach and shepherd your soul.
01:29:18
We're looking for a person to fulfill a specific job. And in this vein,
01:29:23
I want to make this point going back to an earlier question. Donald Trump is not the only position on the ballot.
01:29:30
If you stay home because you don't like Donald Trump, that could have a cascading negative effect.
01:29:37
For example, here in... Burgess was here in Minnesota, so he knows this. In the midterms, the
01:29:43
Democrats took full control of all the branches of government here in Minnesota by one vote.
01:29:48
And that one vote was about by, I think, 200 to 300 votes that suddenly got discovered overnight somehow.
01:29:54
But it was a really close election. My good friend lost that seat in the Senate. And otherwise, things would be different in the state.
01:30:02
But they got that one seat majority because a lot of people stayed home, right? And they ran through every radical thing that they could do.
01:30:10
So even if you can't bring yourself to show up to the polls to vote for Donald Trump, I understand it, somewhat sympathetic towards it.
01:30:17
You can vote still for the Senate in the House because there's a good chance that we can take the
01:30:22
Senate this year because of the map or the House. And if we do that and Donald Trump isn't the president, a lot of evil can be mitigated.
01:30:29
And when you're voting for House or Senate, an individual's character becomes far less important, in my opinion, because majority matters.
01:30:37
Like just adding to the tally matters. Whoever has the majority sets the agenda, gets the seats on the committees, etc.
01:30:43
So the individual character of the person even becomes less important in the House and the Senate because it's all about which party has the controlling numbers.
01:30:52
OK, we have Quincy in Orange, New Jersey, who wants to know, how do you respond to critics of Christians who are very passionate and actively involved in politics because they are claiming and accusing those
01:31:09
Christians of trying to accomplish God's glory on Earth through the arm of the flesh?
01:31:18
And Ardell, perhaps you could start. Well, there are diverse evangelicals and diverse evangelical approaches to the political sphere.
01:31:39
But it is rather wearying that individuals who hurl those kinds of accusations pick on particular individuals who are fringe and impute their flaws and their faults to all of us.
01:32:00
Are there evangelicals who go about the political sphere in ways with which
01:32:06
I disagree? Oh, yes, there are. But that does not mean that I should be silent.
01:32:14
I believe, and what we're seeking to do at our conference is to lay down proper principles on which to act, both from the pulpit as well as from the pew, so that we do not become individuals that justify those kinds of accusations.
01:32:36
We're not engaging in the kind of thing that is imputed to us namely power politics.
01:32:48
As a matter of fact, we're the ones who are objecting to the very principles on which those kinds of accusations are thrown at us.
01:33:00
We're the ones who are against a Marxist kind of approach to politics wherein certain individuals are given certain powerful rights over others.
01:33:21
So I would say that we just need to be attentive to those kinds of accusations, but move on and ignore those kinds of things.
01:33:34
There's an awful lot of projection that goes on in politics. I mean, the leftists
01:33:41
Kamala Harris's entire campaign is rooted in projection. That's what they do.
01:33:47
They project onto Donald Trump, for example, the notion that he's going to be a dictator and all kinds of things.
01:33:55
Well, they're the ones who are locking people up in prison because of political differences.
01:34:01
Donald Trump isn't going to do that and nor do we advocate for that.
01:34:07
We're the ones who seek and advocate for freedom of speech.
01:34:13
We don't want to lock up our political enemies. They do, and they do it right before our eyes.
01:34:23
So I trust that that gets after that question. And Pastor Levi, any addition?
01:34:29
Yeah, I think it's just it's a red herring. I mean, we're not actually trying to bring the glory of God through political realms.
01:34:36
The Christians, I know. What we want is the government to leave us alone, and that's entirely different.
01:34:44
OK, let's see here. We have Davenport in South Jamesport, Long Island, New York.
01:34:53
And Davenport says, should a pastor ever announce his preference of a candidate for political office to his congregation?
01:35:07
Well, in some sense, you're doing that now. Perhaps Davenport means from the pulpit.
01:35:16
But in any case, is there a difference, though? Well, the Johnson Amendment, I believe it was from 1954, has outlawed the ministers and various individuals of such a capacity from endorsing from the pulpit a particular candidate.
01:35:38
As a matter of fact, just today, I believe it was, that I saw a news announcement that there was a pastor who did just that, and he's now in trouble because he endorsed a candidate.
01:35:52
But you don't have to endorse a candidate in order to make it very clear how you're going to be casting your ballot and how people ought to be casting their ballots.
01:36:05
Again, if we're preaching the word of God correctly, and if we're applying it properly to life situations and the issues that we face daily, it becomes rather evident to any reasonable person that there are certain policies, certain beliefs, certain notions and political ideas that are simply out of bounds for a
01:36:32
Christian. So we don't have to endorse. But on the other hand,
01:36:37
I think that the Johnson Amendment from 1954 ought to be repealed and done away with.
01:36:44
It's an intrusion, and it was deliberately and calculatedly done by Johnson, that is,
01:36:51
Lyndon Johnson, in order that he might win his seat without opposition.
01:37:00
Yeah, I don't think the amendment would survive close scrutiny from the United States Supreme Court if they'd actually take it up.
01:37:08
I know that there's different Christian organizations trying to get them to do that, and I don't have to ask, but maybe
01:37:13
I'm going to ask anyways, Ardell. Who did he endorse? I'm guessing it's not one of the times we've seen where a
01:37:22
Democrat politician gets up in an African -American church during Sunday morning worship or whatnot.
01:37:28
No, no, it was not. The IRS would never do that. No, no, no. They get away with that quite regularly.
01:37:36
Yeah, that's a part of the leftist tradition, and I'm not saying anything racist because it's just globally known that the black church at large has that as a part of their treasured tradition and custom to endorse candidates from pulpits and so on.
01:37:58
I don't think it's necessarily out of bounds for a pastor to do it from the pulpit, just as I said, otherwise, like in this world, there could be situations where I think you'd be duty -bound too.
01:38:12
So again, if you're part of the faithful or confessing church in Nazi Germany and the election very enough,
01:38:18
Hitler's up, they should have said, don't vote for him. Yeah, right, right. And so in world history, could there be a time where that happens?
01:38:25
Yeah, right. And I guess there is a difference. Perhaps it's just semantical.
01:38:31
I don't know. There's a difference between saying anybody that votes for this particular person is in sin because of the things that this person is trying to establish into law that are an abomination in the sight of God.
01:38:48
There's a difference between saying that. And I believe that we, to be biblically faithful to our
01:38:55
Lord, must vote for Bill Smith. You know what I'm saying? I think there's a difference there, but perhaps
01:39:01
I'm wrong. I think you're right. But one other thing that I think that that Johnson Amendment, I think that that amendment intimidates pastors into silence in every regard politically so that they don't even want to come close to being arrested under that law.
01:39:25
I don't know if he can be arrested. Did they arrest the pastor? I think you'd just lose your tax exemption. Well, yeah,
01:39:32
I think that that's I think that that's the main thing. You lose your tax exemption. That's true.
01:39:39
But yeah, I think that I think that that intimidates pastors so that they don't even come close.
01:39:47
And we have to go to our final break. Send us an email with your question if you want it asked on the air because we're rapidly running out of time.
01:39:54
Chris Orensen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back with more of our conversation.
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gracereformedbaptistchurch .org. We're now back with the final segment of our interview today with Dr.
01:52:53
Ardell Canaday and my co -host, who is Levi Secord of Christ Bible Church in Minnesota.
01:53:05
And we just had a clarification from our friend Michael in Wisconsin, and he is from Cottage Grove, Wisconsin.
01:53:15
Thanks for letting us know about that, Michael. We have
01:53:21
Quigley in Canterbury, New Hampshire. One thing that puzzles me is why there are some churches that may be very solid in their theology, even
01:53:33
Reformed Baptist and so on, that not only will not have voter guides available anywhere in the church, but they absolutely forbid them to be present in the building.
01:53:48
How do you respond to this? And Ardell, you can start, and then we'll have Levi. That puzzles me, too.
01:53:58
I don't understand that notion, but on the other hand,
01:54:06
I do have an understanding in that folks have separated, as Francis Schaeffer has argued, and as Levi has reminded us, they have separated things in the lower deck from the upper deck, and the upper deck is where they live their
01:54:28
Christian lives and seek to stay away from all those things of the world as though it's contaminating.
01:54:38
Yeah, it's a very unfortunate notion, but it is a realistic notion that is occurring in many churches.
01:54:49
It's what we would call pietism. It's the separation of Christian life from the world about.
01:54:59
It's not a healthy separation at all, but Levi has a lot more to say about that,
01:55:06
I'm sure. Well, maybe not a lot more, but assuming that we have used in the past the
01:55:13
Minnesota Family Council's voter guide, we will use it again this year. Assuming that it's like that, that it doesn't actually endorse a candidate and that it just lists their policy positions,
01:55:26
I want to make this crystal clear. And a trustworthy source. Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, but I want to make this clear.
01:55:33
As long as it's not endorsing a candidate, it is not against the Johnson Amendment. So churches should feel no hesitation about their tax exempt status on that.
01:55:42
That is not even getting close to endorsing a candidate and then asking that political or legal question.
01:55:50
But yeah, I think, again, this pietism that Ardell speaks about is so prevalent today, but it's also so foreign to how most of the church thought for so long.
01:56:03
It's particularly the Protestant Reformation who evangelicalism is supposed to be the theological heirs of.
01:56:11
It's just, it's silly. It's nonsense. It's stupid. It's acting like you can be above all of this, and that somehow by watching the world burn around you, that you're actually keeping your hands clean by not addressing the problems that your congregants are facing.
01:56:25
Man up, shepherds your people in all of life, including here. Amen. Okay, Michael, again, in Cottage Grove, Wisconsin, has a second question for you folks.
01:56:39
I see a lot of Christian leaders punching to the right and coddling the left, and these
01:56:44
Christian leaders are accusing me of punching to the left and coddling the right. Then there are other
01:56:51
Christian leaders who say we shouldn't punch or coddle, but rather look upward at Christ.
01:56:56
How do I respond? I mean, I don't like either of the major parties, but it's clear to me that one is far more evil than the other.
01:57:06
And Ardell, do you have any comments? Yeah. There are plenty of people who lead the way with very loud voices who punch right and coddle left.
01:57:21
They are, I believe, very wrongheaded, and if I may mention a name.
01:57:29
David French recently came out very clearly, published an article in the New York Times arguing and making the claim that he's going to vote for Kamala Harris.
01:57:41
And with the hope that if he votes for Kamala Harris, that it'll purge the
01:57:47
Republican Party of Trump and bring the Republican Party somehow back to Reagan Republicanism.
01:57:58
Well, you don't win by losing, and you don't certainly purge one party of a particular individual by voting for a person who is immoral in every position that she holds.
01:58:19
It's just a very weird, bizarre notion. And he's a puncher to the right, and he coddles to the left.
01:58:27
I think he's fundamentally wrong. I think he needs to repent. In fact, that sounds like somebody saying, you know,
01:58:33
I don't like my Baptist pastor's eschatology, so I'm going to the church of Satan until that pastor resides.
01:58:41
You know, it makes no sense. Do you have any final words, Pastor Levi, because we're almost out of time?
01:58:47
Yeah, I would recommend— like, this is a common tactic. I would recommend reading Megan Basham's book,
01:58:53
Shepherds for Sale. Yes. This is a concerted effort. These leftist organizations have talked about it in the open.
01:59:02
They try to get pastors and talking heads to punch hard to the right and coddle to the left.
01:59:09
It earns these individuals praise from the left, and it is— I shudder to think the judgment that will fall on some of these who will probably be found to be false shepherds.
01:59:21
Not all of them, but some of them. Okay. That's something that we should just laugh at.
01:59:28
Jesus punched in every direction, and so should we. Well, I hope as many of you as possible attend the conference being held by Christ Bible Church in Roseville, Minnesota, September 20th and 21st.
01:59:41
Go to christbible .net, christbible .net to find out more details. I want to thank you both for doing such an exquisite job today, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater