Video Player is loading.
Mockery is not a Christian Virtue, then, the Carson/Huff Discussion
15 views
Last Road Trip DL for 2024 coming from Holbrook, Arizona this evening. Started off looking at Joel Webbon's defense both of "anons" and using them to mock people "right off X," naming Owen Strachan as an example. Then we discussed the encounter between Wes Huff, a Christian scholar and apologist, and Billy Carson, an Internet "influencer" of some kind, and Carson's claims that Jesus was not crucified, etc.
- 00:30
- Well greetings and welcome to the dividing line, my name is James White it is the last of the road trip
- 00:37
- DLs for Well for 2024 really No, I can't finish setting you up right now.
- 00:45
- Okay Yeah, just okay just you sit there and do your thing, okay, that's all we can do for right now, sorry iPhone just updated to the new iOS with all the cool programs and stuff where I'll be able to make
- 01:03
- My own personal emojis, which I might have some fun with that that that might
- 01:09
- There's certain family signal chats that that could end up being fun And but anyway, well, we'll look at all that later on it just got done and I'm hoping that the streams gonna work
- 01:21
- All right, we were having some I got all set up. We were gonna go for a half an hour ago Just using 5g and it it crashed and burned and so I had to put
- 01:31
- Starlink out and then take Starlink a while to sort Of find the satellites amazing system.
- 01:37
- It really is seems to be doing pretty good right now. So let's hope that we get through Everything here without too much of a difficulty as I said long leg today longest leg.
- 01:47
- I don't know why I Well, I do know why I wanted to try out this
- 01:53
- RV park Um, there's a KOA here that I've stayed at many times But it doesn't seem like they have slots big enough for this unit every time
- 02:04
- I've tried to get reservations here It's said we can't and so I'm just wondering if I've just exceeded their their range
- 02:12
- I can't believe that that would be the case because they've got big stuff, but Anyway, I want to try it out because this was the park.
- 02:19
- I was supposed to stay in Months ago when My dear brother
- 02:25
- Jeff and another brother in the church drove all the way up here. Just drive me to the ER for surgery and That was another reason to to get here.
- 02:34
- So I'm here and have no intentions on going to the ER this evening Lord willing, you know, so I could happen but so yeah long day and During that time
- 02:47
- I listened To the Billy Carson West Huff It wasn't a debate
- 02:54
- There was no thesis There was no even times. There was no moderator.
- 03:00
- It was West versus two guys on About 47 different topics
- 03:05
- I would say which unfortunately is really what happens with that kind of stuff
- 03:14
- Billy Carson should never do an actual formal debate
- 03:21
- Because it would be If if he's upset about what happened there and he is big -time when you're talking about Suing people for a million dollars.
- 03:30
- You're pretty upset about what took place If he's upset about that I Can't imagine what would happen if if he actually did a debate and believe me
- 03:41
- It's not first time I've heard of people threatening to sue And saying you can't make that available
- 03:47
- You know that's happened before happened to me when I debated
- 03:52
- Barry Lynn in 2001 on Long Island on the subject of homosexuality and He was gonna file suit against us in The Ninth Circuit Court to suppress the tapes of that debate and it was a debate this time which he had agreed to do and And so we filed suit against him
- 04:15
- In Washington, which is where copyright issues are supposed to be done the Alliance defending freedom Alliance defense defense fund back then
- 04:23
- Was representing us and that's why you can watch that debate today is because for the grand total of the sum of $1
- 04:30
- We were able to make that that Debate available. So yeah, nothing new about this.
- 04:37
- It's It has happened before but but we'll be talking about that in a moment
- 04:44
- We'll get to that in a moment But also on my trip today,
- 04:49
- I got to stunningly Listen to apology or radio today live
- 04:57
- It almost never happens because it is Thursday and Generally, we do a dividing line in the afternoon pretty much the same time as apology or radio.
- 05:08
- I don't know why that happens, but they have to do it when they can do it and can get people together and same thing with Rich and I and it just seems to work that way and so They had
- 05:22
- Andrew Sandlin on today and we're discussing his article That has that they've got so many
- 05:33
- Young gym rats upset a few weeks ago. There's a It was a it was a great
- 05:41
- Discussion. I hope you'll look it up and And listen to it today the today's episode and one of the reasons
- 05:50
- I want you to listen to I Love Luke. I love all all the guys I work with their
- 05:55
- Jeff Luke and Zach and Zach with ones H and ones K Zach Conover was on today.
- 06:02
- I love Zach Zach I I had asked my wife to give you your
- 06:08
- Christmas present and to videotape you opening it but she hasn't done that yet and So I'm disappointed about that, but you better be at church on Sunday because It's good.
- 06:19
- You're you're it's good. You're gonna you're gonna love it anyway So love these guys and what they do and Luke has
- 06:30
- Always Gone after me for being the old guy, you know,
- 06:35
- I'm the elderly elder and He got he really started getting into it today and He's getting riled up and then loses his
- 06:50
- He was gonna say something and then it's like oh God, I was gonna say
- 06:55
- I'm just sitting there going See, it's not boomer brain
- 07:02
- It's not massive old age it just It just happens to us all and I'm enjoying watching that happening
- 07:12
- Because I knew it would and so anyways, let's check out apology radio the episode today
- 07:18
- I think you will be blessed by that but along those same lines. I Got to hear about a sense
- 07:29
- I've heard nothing more about drones Obviously being piloted by the mothership in orbit or something like that Independence Day is about to take place the real movie who knows but Though they're only going to invade
- 07:47
- Delaware Or New Jersey or Staten? Why in the world with aliens want to have anything to do with Staten Island?
- 07:57
- Can we just offer them Staten Island and see if they'll go away just take it with you it's it's okay anyway
- 08:05
- Almost as weird is a a clip that I saw this morning
- 08:15
- I don't even I don't even know necessarily how to describe it but I'm going to try as best
- 08:23
- I can to bring it up and It may be it may take a second of silence
- 08:32
- To get this to work and all the rest that kind of fun stuff, but I I want you to to see this and Let's try
- 08:43
- That okay that that did that that was okay So here we go.
- 08:49
- I'm gonna try to make this work for you. Hold on just one moment
- 09:01
- There is a biblical theological case for mocking and and mockery is
- 09:09
- Absolutely effective it can be done in a similar format and biblical. Well, that's why
- 09:14
- I said there's a theological case for it So it's mocking is permissible in biblical terms. That doesn't mean that that it's always right
- 09:21
- You can do it wrongly. You can do it rightly. So and that's in the moral sense in the biblical sense, but then there's the
- 09:28
- The sense of how is it effective or not and it is highly highly effective
- 09:34
- We need a non accounts to mock Certain people off of Twitter there.
- 09:40
- There are certain people who are on X right now who? Need to they need to be on blue skies
- 09:49
- That's right But there are some others that I think by God's grace if we can get just a few more in on accounts
- 09:58
- I think we can do it. Yep Okay First of all what you you have there the admission on Joel's part
- 10:14
- You know, they're talking about Anonymous accounts a non's there.
- 10:20
- I'm not sure why we would say a non's but uh -uh non's or would be more relevant to the actual term anyway, um
- 10:30
- So you you have two things here you have an entire webcast in defense of anonymous accounts and of course
- 10:43
- You can make an argument that certain people Need to be anonymous
- 10:51
- Turretin fan for many many years Was anonymous most people know who he is and why he was anonymous for for the time that he was
- 11:01
- But here you've got someone who who produces not mockery memes
- 11:07
- But multi -hour programs diving in -depth into obscure historical stuff that almost nobody else dives into and so massive difference there
- 11:23
- But you know, you can just go. Well, there might be reasons why some would be anonymous. Okay But I would say in the current situation on Social media that does not apply to 99 .95
- 11:39
- % of the individuals, especially there the red background blue -eyed dark maga whatever people
- 11:52
- Who are anonymous? because if they weren't
- 11:58
- The churches that they're attending would take notice And would try to bring correction
- 12:07
- Or they're anonymous because they know that what they're saying and what they're doing is grossly sub -christian
- 12:17
- So that's the first issue regarding quote -unquote anonymous accounts
- 12:24
- I can see a few situations where that would be acceptable the vast majority are anonymous because they're irresponsible and Because they're engaging in behavior that is fundamentally incompatible with the
- 12:38
- Christian faith and They know it and so that's why they're doing what they're doing secondly here
- 12:46
- Joel You know tips his hat that they've been using their anonymous army
- 12:56
- To engage in mockery of myself Doug Wilson Joe boot
- 13:02
- Andrew Sandlin basically everyone who is
- 13:07
- Who they used to? identify with But I think about three weeks ago just made the decision.
- 13:14
- You know what? We're done We're going full -on Stephen Wolfe. We're going full -on natural law.
- 13:21
- We're going full -on the whole nine yards I Just I just think there was probably a zoom call or something where it was to decide.
- 13:30
- You know, what this is what we're gonna do We're not gonna I got to put up with this anymore
- 13:35
- We're gonna go all the way because you know, they're having a wolf and Andrew Isker at this conference in in April and I think you're gonna see further developments between now and April and then you're gonna see developments thereafter
- 13:51
- I think a year from now the lines are gonna be very very clear and Those lines are gonna be focused around Around Well quite simply when you're a
- 14:05
- Thomist Thomas's gospel is not the Reformed Gospel and The reality is that the divisions will be based upon the difference between The Reformation Theologically considered in regards to its central aspect
- 14:28
- Sufficiency of scripture Soteriology grace versus the
- 14:36
- Reformation neutered by return to Thomism so natural law rejection of presuppositional ism rejection of Any form of theonomy general equity theonomy in favor of Natural law theology and things related there to and really a
- 15:01
- Unneutering of any kind of serious post -monial hope because remember Stephen Wolfe is a non regenerationist
- 15:10
- He believes that Christian nationalism can and should be established apart from the
- 15:16
- Puritan hope the regeneration of the nation's the nation's coming to God's Holy Hill seeking his
- 15:25
- Torah No, you need Christian princes. It's christened in 1 .0.
- 15:30
- It's what we had up through the Reformation Reformers were sacral us but that doesn't change the fact that it was a
- 15:42
- Really bad system and it was certainly unbiblical and that's why it eventually was properly abandoned but now we have people who want to Bring it back and I just don't think there's any
- 15:53
- Way of sort of standing in the middle Some people will try but no matter what you're gonna end up with blood and soil nationalism versus the
- 16:05
- Puritan hope Build the kingdom for the future. We may not see it now, but unless the
- 16:13
- Spirit of God changes hearts and minds It's not gonna happen it can't happen it's impossible and So we're gonna see those things happening but in this situation
- 16:26
- I Just want to point out that Notice what was said mockery is very effective by what standard
- 16:35
- Oh, where have I heard that by what standard, huh? Yeah, by what standard?
- 16:43
- How do you measure that? Because you know the first thing it crosses my mind when
- 16:50
- Someone makes a statement like that is what does Scripture say and When you think of the term mocker and Mockery or the verb to mock in Scripture What do you automatically think of today on apology radio
- 17:10
- Andrew Sandlin? It was really interesting he he I think he said his dad had
- 17:20
- Encouraged him to Read through the Proverbs. There's 31 chapters.
- 17:26
- There's 31 days in a number of months anyways And so he says that once a year he
- 17:37
- Does that he one month each year he will just read a chapter of Proverbs each day aside from whatever reading he's doing and And His his his point was look if you want to know
- 17:50
- How to live as a Christian young man if you want to know what God's Word says should be your your goals and your your guidance
- 18:01
- You know presented to God a heart of wisdom. It's been a sermon. I've preached many many times and Yeah, Proverbs of just a gold mine
- 18:12
- Jeff is preaching through it at Apologia a couple others of us have stepped in and done a few sections
- 18:17
- I don't know how he's gonna do the rest of the book because we're we're at the latter in the latter half of the book where Each verse is a context unto itself that each verse is a statement to itself.
- 18:29
- It's not so you get to you know, the the godly woman that you go back to something where you actually have something of a context you can look at and earlier in Proverbs You too, but you don't have that anymore.
- 18:40
- And so you have to sort of string stuff together. It can be rather challenging anyway You know, that's that's extremely wise
- 18:48
- But look at the term mockery in Proverbs or in the Psalter or in the in the prophets
- 18:56
- It's not positive About the only place you can come up with something is when
- 19:01
- Elijah mocks the false gods Okay, I had a friend once he
- 19:13
- Turned on me and betrayed me and and no matter how many times I tried to Fix that situation and he eventually he's become an apostate but anyway
- 19:25
- Bright individual but real difficulty with anger arrogance
- 19:36
- Pride things like that and I had talked to him about it many many times and When he would talk to unbelievers or even when he talked to believers, but when he would talk to unbelievers he could just be
- 19:50
- Horrifically nasty just acerbic is not even the proper term and When I would confront him about it he would say look, you know the prophets used mockery
- 20:04
- I mean Ezekiel uses mockery and Elijah uses mockery And so, you know, and he used they use strong language.
- 20:12
- So I'm just I'm just following their their lead and Again, this is the this is how people who have
- 20:21
- Self -control problems Excuse their self -control problems is they say well prophets did it then
- 20:29
- I can too and You know, I said to him, um, well they were under the inspiration of the
- 20:36
- Holy Spirit and you struggle with anger So maybe that really wouldn't be so wise Given that you can't seem to control it and so Likewise, are you are you then going to after mocking your opponents slaughter them like Elijah did?
- 20:56
- That's Seems a little bit harsh Then seemed it really fit with the
- 21:01
- New Testament pattern, but hey these days who knows Hard to see but you go into the
- 21:09
- New Testament and there is nothing positive Anywhere in the
- 21:14
- New Testament Nowhere do you can you make an argument that Mockery is a
- 21:22
- New Testament suggested mechanism of doing evangelism or apologetics
- 21:30
- But you find lots of places. Well, you find some places where a mockery is a danger.
- 21:35
- So for example In Jude and and in of course 2nd
- 21:43
- Peter they're very much parallel But you beloved must remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of the
- 21:51
- Lord Jesus Christ They were saying to you in the last time there will be mockers following after their own ungodly lusts
- 22:00
- These are the ones who cause divisions worldly -minded not having the spirit. Oh So Here you have inspired scripture where we are being reminded of things spoken beforehand by the apostles of our
- 22:21
- Lord Jesus Christ and That they were saying to the church in the last time there will be mockers following after their own ungodly lusts
- 22:33
- Well, that doesn't sound like a positive use of mockery Does it instead it sounds like?
- 22:42
- people who mock Do so because they're following after only ungodly their own ungodly lusts.
- 22:49
- So there is a it's very obvious You know to adults
- 22:56
- That when your children Start mocking one another that's not a positive behavior and I doubt any
- 23:07
- Christian parents Would accept their child going but Elijah did it
- 23:14
- Yeah, but what's your desire in doing this Well mockers follow after their own ungodly lusts and they are the ones who cause divisions.
- 23:26
- Oh Really divisions, how could that be? They are worldly -minded
- 23:35
- They think about the things the world not having the spirit
- 23:44
- So they're the in the original language. They're called Sukha Koi So they're fleshly
- 23:53
- Not having the Numa So if you if you have the
- 23:59
- Numa if you have the spirit What do you do but you beloved building yourselves up on your most holy faith
- 24:06
- Praying in the Holy Spirit's keep yourselves in love of God waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ eternal life how descriptive of Much of what happens in social media is that I was directed
- 24:21
- I think before I pulled out this morning yeah to someone put up a mockery
- 24:29
- Statement called the a hood statement and I think they purposely made it look like the
- 24:36
- Antioch Declaration and stuff like that and it's about fat pastors fat pastors and The comment
- 24:46
- I made to the group that I saw it in was What kind of person
- 24:53
- Has the time to be doing something like this? Do they really think that they are in some way?
- 25:00
- Acting the way that is pleasing to God that are they really gonna honestly say? Yes, the
- 25:06
- Spirit of God Moved me to spend this kind of time in mockery
- 25:15
- I don't believe that for a second the this is this is
- 25:21
- It's it's inexcusable It's like okay You have only so much time on earth and you decide to invest your time in something like this
- 25:34
- Doesn't sound like building yourselves up on your most holy faith praying in the
- 25:39
- Holy Spirit keep yourselves in the love of God waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ eternal life and On some who are doubting have mercy
- 25:50
- Mockers I don't find mockers to be the ones Who are consistently witnessing?
- 25:57
- Engaging in evangelism Godly homes proper relationships and service in the church
- 26:06
- No, I said that that doesn't go together with that That kind of mindset and the the memes that repeat people have been producing and stuff like that.
- 26:15
- I Don't see any of that. You see pastorally a pastor
- 26:24
- Does not want to be encouraging Attitudes amongst people that will be self -destructive to them, but you heard what pastor weapons said
- 26:39
- We need more anonymous so without responsibility
- 26:47
- Don't know what church are associated with their elders don't know That's just so obviously dangerous so obviously things that I'm just left going
- 27:01
- What? But we need more anonymous mockers to engage in a self -destructive activity
- 27:14
- To silence His critics and get them off of the social media and he names the name
- 27:22
- Owen Strat Wow at least now we know what he's saying is
- 27:27
- I think it's proper to use Irresponsible people to mock
- 27:35
- Christian ministers to silence them on Twitter. So I I'm like I said,
- 27:42
- I think by this time next year The lines are gonna be so clearly drawn so clearly drawn and They're they're being drawn right now
- 27:54
- But I was just You know, I there were other things in this defense of anons that were equally
- 28:06
- Astonishing But we don't have time to go into all that right now
- 28:13
- But like I said, I We're gonna we're gonna see things continue to develop just It's inevitable it's inevitable because The people that they are courting and I've told this to some of these men
- 28:31
- The people that they are wanting to have as their followers will always be demanding new stuff and The new stuff will have to be more and more and more exciting which means more and more and more rebellious
- 28:49
- Just all there's to it so at some point they're gonna have to go what stop and then they will be turned on and eaten alive
- 29:03
- If that's what they choose to do Otherwise, they'll have to just continue on and it'll get worse and worse and worse and the trajectory is off into who knows
- 29:12
- What? I've told them I've said it They've decided not gonna listen to you.
- 29:20
- Don't care. Okay. All right. Well, I did my part and We'll see how that all plays out, okay, so on on Twitter yesterday afternoon
- 29:34
- I Saw someone saying I'd like to hear what? James White says
- 29:41
- About the Billy Carson West Huff debate and I'm like Sorry don't have any idea what that is
- 29:50
- I I do not live in social media of The only the only social media platform that I spend
- 29:58
- Serious time in is Twitter Facebook Have some really cool
- 30:07
- The things I like about Facebook are the little videos the sort of up -and -down videos
- 30:15
- Clips or something of various especially baseball stuff, you know some cool triple play or something like that and Calvin and Hobbes comic strips
- 30:29
- You know, whatever you you click like on you'll get a bunch of it So, you know,
- 30:34
- I was clicking like on watches for a while so you could see all these cool watches and and then
- 30:39
- I Started clicking on World War two fighter aircraft. So I got a bunch of World War two fighter aircraft
- 30:46
- It's almost like playing with the algorithm just to the phone But I otherwise I don't about the only
- 30:53
- Thing I like about Facebook is its memories thing like it just it threw up a picture yesterday from nine years ago a little
- 31:01
- Clementine I Um And she was just so tiny and she was staying with grandma and grandpa
- 31:11
- Overnight and she was probably watching some Something on TV and and I think she was eating meatballs
- 31:20
- Which everybody in our family is going. Yeah, probably Just something my wife does when
- 31:27
- When Kelly doesn't know else to cook she she makes she makes meatballs. It's just sort of how it works. Anyway So but the
- 31:34
- Facebook Facebook and me So I don't live on these things so I don't see this stuff and So I was given a link and I managed to download
- 31:45
- Got a new computer and I haven't figured out how to make it do some of the stuff my old computer could do I'm sure it can it's just I Have to catch up with the technology.
- 31:55
- I guess by a faster way to do it now anyway Got it downloaded in audio format.
- 32:02
- I watched a few minutes of it in video just so I'd have a Mental picture of what was going on and So I asked well, what's what's this about?
- 32:12
- Because I didn't know who was involved. I have found out since then that Westhoff spoke at the
- 32:23
- Ezra Institute apologetics thing that Jeff spoke at I'm wondering if that was the one where I was with them up in upstate
- 32:32
- New York and then they went up into Canada and I went elsewhere, um, maybe it was anyway, so he's
- 32:40
- Westhoff has spoken for the Ezra Institute Joe boot and so you know, that's that's a big positive thing from my perspective and So I asked for a summary some people gave me a summary and then another guy linked me to About a 16 -minute video that I listened to first this morning as I started my drive and it was a
- 33:10
- Guy evidently what happened is This was so negative for this
- 33:17
- Billy Carson guy That he did a three -hour video
- 33:28
- Responding to what happened in that debate again, it was not a debate There was no moderator.
- 33:34
- There was no thesis statement. There was no equal time wasn't even close to equal time The guy whose webcast it is
- 33:42
- I think took up most of the time actually especially toward the end but So it wasn't a debate.
- 33:50
- It was it was a discussion and this this Billy Carson guy
- 33:57
- I'm pretty sure someone sent me a clip of this fellow Talking about something.
- 34:05
- I don't know about six months ago, and I I just remember watching it going What this is this guy didn't have a clue what he's talking about what he's talking about the
- 34:16
- Bible I mean what it was sort of like almost a black Hebrew Israelite thing with space aliens thrown in for the fun of it is
- 34:24
- I Think I bookmarked it. I don't think I ever got around to commenting on it. I don't think
- 34:29
- I did But I I'm pretty sure it was the same guy and evidently he's making bank with all this stuff that he does about ancient civilizations and he travels around the world and you know, he throws all this stuff together and So so this guy did this 16 minute video
- 34:52
- Where he summarizes Carson's attempt to do damage control and that's where I learned a lot about him because he there's this whole section where he's he's mocking the people who
- 35:06
- He feels are attacking him. He says they're all poor He's not just a worker bee.
- 35:12
- He brags a lot about you know The places he stays and the billionaires that he knows and it's really a massive turnoff it's just like okay and But lo and behold he's making
- 35:31
- He's he's telling people I'm gonna sue these guys. I'm gonna sue the guy who the the the
- 35:41
- Mark Menard and And look at the at the beginning of the of the thing that you know, they're just great buddies and Menard supported him and a lot of stuff that he was saying
- 35:52
- Menard claims to be a Christian, but he's clearly massively confused Doesn't understand the
- 35:58
- Old Testament. He doesn't hold Jesus's own view of Scripture. Okay, he's created
- 36:03
- Jesus that he really really likes But that never existed. It's a
- 36:08
- Jesus of emotion. It's a Jesus who makes me feel good but it's not the
- 36:14
- Jesus of Scripture and So he wasn't you know, Wes was going up against two different positions with these guys but he's talking about suing for a million dollars and you're like You know, like I said at the beginning.
- 36:35
- Oh It's Barry Lynn all over again Wow, okay
- 36:43
- Certainly means that no one's ever going to engage him again Nor should they given his behavior
- 36:50
- But then he's coming up with all these excuses I had had pneumonia and I was in the hospital and and I still had a band -aid on my arm
- 36:58
- From the IVs and all the and maybe that's true I don't know but I certainly couldn't tell it and he certainly never made any reference to it
- 37:08
- And as the guy who made the video pointed out the arguments he was using about the stuff
- 37:14
- Supposed to be talking about are found in all of his videotapes before this
- 37:22
- So What what happened in the in the conversation? Well, and and this is
- 37:30
- This is what I would say to to Wes He first of all did a great job
- 37:39
- Was very patient Probably more patient than I would have been
- 37:44
- You know that people all the time go, you know, I actually had a conversation with the guy Yeah, I called him on the phone
- 37:50
- He asked me to and we talked and he said how how do you say so calm and patient in these debate situations?
- 37:56
- I'm like, I don't I know it may seem that way but but Not not really.
- 38:02
- I mean most of the time is just hey once your opponent starts losing it Just keep giving a rope and let them do what they're gonna do
- 38:10
- But He Wes was very very patient Even though he kept getting cut off.
- 38:18
- It wasn't Anything other than you know, when I look over like that I'm looking at the cash thing over on the the feed on the screen and making sure that the
- 38:30
- Connection still happening because look This technology is not yet perfected
- 38:39
- You know, I just think back to 2016 when I did that stuff on the dr. Drew show via Skype and How much better things are now and I'm sitting in an
- 38:50
- RV Hundreds of miles from home. I've still got you know a drive tomorrow not a long drive, thankfully
- 38:58
- But it's a downhill drive with one big climb in the middle But I'm coming to you via satellite
- 39:09
- And I I set the you know, the dishes right out there it's not really a dish it's just a flat
- 39:17
- Thing that big and I got it oriented right and then the signal stabilized after a while and here
- 39:24
- I am I mean, it's Wow things have really really really really really really changed but Even down at the office when
- 39:34
- I'm when I'm back home I've had the internet just disappear Right in the middle of doing an interview or right the end of an interview, whatever else it still happens
- 39:45
- It is not things are not perfected yet. And so Especially toward the end.
- 39:51
- I think West got cut off for like six or seven minutes because they were the two of them were just Hammering away on the
- 39:58
- Old Testament and the God of the Old Testament being great Gnostics and West had tried was trying to explain
- 40:09
- Basic hermeneutics and neither one of them would even touch with a 10 -foot pole. No not interested in That at all.
- 40:18
- We've got our We've made up our decisions and we've made our decisions. We're sticking with it.
- 40:23
- Um so anyway Right to start, you know, the big thing was
- 40:33
- That this Billy Carson guy says that Jesus would not crucify and When you hear someone say that Two things cross our mind.
- 40:47
- Have they been influenced by Islam? Sir, four one seven in the Quran. They did not crucify him
- 40:53
- It was made to appear to them and that's understood different ways by Muslims Have they been influenced somehow by Islam and Are they aware that even the most radical skeptics
- 41:06
- John Dominic Crossan, for example Bart Ehrman They'll all say the same thing the most sure
- 41:16
- Historical fact about Jesus's life is his crucifixion under Pontius Pilate They may question everything else about Jesus's life
- 41:27
- But the one thing that's really not questionable is The crucifixion and so I'm like, okay
- 41:38
- I'll be interested to see how this pans out. So Carson says well
- 41:49
- The crucifixion isn't found in the Sinai Bible Which is much earlier than the
- 41:59
- King James Bible Now I can guarantee you
- 42:08
- That I Know what was probably going through Wes's mind at that point and he said he'd been listening to stuff
- 42:14
- So I'm probably I'm sure he wasn't surprised But when you hear someone say something like that, they have just said to you.
- 42:23
- I know nothing about the history of the Bible But I'm going to make dogmatic statements about it anyways and probably enjoy it while I'm doing it
- 42:34
- Because There is no such thing as a Sinai Bible he was talking about Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Sinaiticus I Was told
- 42:47
- I saw somewhere else someone else made the comment that Wes turned around and pulled his facsimile of Sinaiticus now
- 42:54
- That baby weighs at least 45 pounds. I mean and And When we go to the side camera in the studio in the regular studio back in Phoenix mines down behind me where the 1550
- 43:10
- Stephanus is and I don't think Wes has the 1550s too far. Sorry, bro
- 43:16
- Maybe someday. Um but Because I know you'd like one
- 43:23
- Anyway He pulls out Sinaiticus and and I can only imagine that Billy Carson's like, oh
- 43:32
- Because he's been saying it wrong in video after video after video after video after video he clearly doesn't even know what it is
- 43:40
- He does not know it is Yes, the earliest complete
- 43:46
- Bible that we have Not in both original languages because it's in Greek all the way through but when it was discovered it was
- 43:53
- Certainly the earliest Septuagint that we had the Old Testament in Greek and Together with Vaticanus Vaticanus was known before Sinaiticus But um, they're probably contemporaneous as far as they're dating between 325 and 350 so, um
- 44:14
- All he has to do is say and the crucifixions throughout Codex Sinaiticus I guess
- 44:22
- Carson tried to say well, it's not in his three -hour rebuttal video. It's not in You know son the
- 44:32
- Sinai Bible Doesn't have the long reading of Mark. Well longer you mark contains resurrection story not but not crucifixion the crucifixion part of Mark is right there in Sinaiticus as it is in Matthew and Luke and John and The references to Christ crucified or bound all through Paul and it's
- 44:59
- He's just been wrong all along Don't worry got it
- 45:04
- It did seem in light of what he immediately defaulted to that at some point in the not -too -distant past Billy Carson ran into some
- 45:16
- Islamic dawah material online and Heisted it just borrowed it wholesale because Once Wes is sitting there
- 45:27
- Holding Codex Sinaiticus says ah, it's in here He goes.
- 45:33
- Oh, I misspoke. He didn't misspeak. That was a lot All of his videos had said the
- 45:40
- Sinai Bible He had repeated this over and over again, it almost made me think of Eric and Cantor Yeah, you know
- 45:48
- See, this is this is called a microphone You talk into it.
- 45:53
- It records things. You can't you can't just go I Misspoke when
- 46:00
- You've misspoken 25 times on videos that you still have on your on your YouTube channel, but that's that's not misspeaking
- 46:07
- You were in error You were wrong big -time wrong
- 46:13
- So he goes I I didn't mean Codex Sinaiticus. I meant That I again
- 46:21
- I kept this big huge unit on the road.
- 46:28
- I Didn't even hit the rumble strips he goes I meant the
- 46:33
- Gospel of Barnabas. Okay We Have I don't remember and and again the anybody who wants to can go back to the
- 46:48
- Transcripts page at a omen org and Put in Gospel of Barnabas and I'm sure it'll pull it up.
- 46:55
- We've walked through this. It would have been probably between 2006 and 2010 or so during the what
- 47:05
- I would call the Intense Islamic period of my study and writing and debating and traveling and debating in mosques in South Africa and London and down in Australia and places like that we have talked about the
- 47:23
- Gospel of Barnabas Which is different than the epistle of Barnabas a lot of people get really confused
- 47:32
- Those names get attached to all sorts of things But the reality is the Gospel of Barnabas is a 14th century
- 47:43
- Forgery Possibly by someone
- 47:49
- It's difficult to determine their motivations. It's such a royal mess theologically historically
- 47:58
- It's it's a study in anachronism The things that says existed in the past that didn't and and It clearly the author had been influenced by Islam, but whether he's a
- 48:11
- Muslim not it's hard to say because he has He has things in there that Muslims don't believe too
- 48:19
- So that's strange as to how exactly that works but it's it's an abject
- 48:29
- Forgery and I've had Muslims bring it up in debates, of course and You know, normally it comes up to where you only have the opportunity to be spying to it rebuttal rebuttal periods are
- 48:43
- Notoriously short so you can only say so many things but It's a complete forgery
- 48:50
- And it's embarrassing That anyone would ever make reference to it as if it has anything to do
- 48:58
- With the contemporary period of Jesus's death burial and resurrection
- 49:04
- Now what was interesting is Billy Carson as soon as he pulled out Sinaiticus He said someone along the lines of well,
- 49:13
- I'll go with that I'll go with what he said with what Wes said about Sinaiticus obviously containing testimony the crucifixion of Christ and Then he switched over to the epistle the
- 49:27
- Gospel of Barnabas and as soon as Wes is like Yeah, that's even worse for your case because now you're talking about something that's clearly forged and fraudulent
- 49:39
- He Did not even try to make a defense. It's pretty impossible to do.
- 49:45
- So anyways, but He didn't even try. He said well, let's talk about the Old Testament and Wes is like whoa, whoa
- 49:55
- Yeah, yeah Sort of sort of hard to stay with one particular train of thought there
- 50:04
- He just knew he couldn't defend this stuff and again, I'm sitting here thinking back over 30 plus years of doing debates and I'm thinking about and that guy did the same time
- 50:18
- I don't hate that guy did that and oh, yeah, I've seen this kind of thing happen Over and over and over again when when when
- 50:28
- I debate Barry Lynn Interesting parallel because he tried to sue us as well, but when
- 50:35
- I debated Barry Lynn The questions
- 50:40
- I was asking him during cross -examination He obviously had never been asked even though he was on in had did media appearances all the time on the major news outlets
- 50:53
- And So when I forced him into the text He just didn't even know what to do you he just became so flustered and so angry and so defensive that by the end of the debate he was yelling at the audience because They all knew what had happened that night as well.
- 51:11
- Just like everybody who watched this knew what had happened in that in that context, too and so he goes off into Other areas and starts dealing with Babylonian writings and No just Completely outside the realm of what the conversation was supposed to be at the beginning.
- 51:38
- That's why I said earlier he should never do a debate a Real debate.
- 51:45
- I don't know that he would know what the rules of real debate are. Most people don't But If in a real debate, he responded the way he did in this conversation.
- 51:57
- The debate would have lasted about 20 minutes and it would have been called because He would have been well,
- 52:04
- I don't really want to talk about that. And so you just move on from there So it was um,
- 52:11
- I Guess he had to leave at some point. And like I said what has happened since then
- 52:17
- I Cannot possibly imagine that any attorney
- 52:24
- Would take this case and file these charges because when you're doing it civilly you're open to counter suits and What he said in that three -hour thing just just the clips that were played by this other fellow
- 52:41
- More than enough to utterly obliterate Any case he could possibly made
- 52:47
- And therefore to open the possibility for a counter suit being highly highly Successful, so I don't think anything is gonna come of it
- 52:57
- But it does tell you a lot about You know, this guy's got money to protect.
- 53:04
- He's got followers to protect and so There's there's always been that historically, you know,
- 53:12
- Paul said the Ephesian elders There's gonna be people who arise from amongst you know drawing disciples way after themselves
- 53:22
- Quite quite true, but now it's become multiplied in the social media realm
- 53:32
- Where I mean there are people who make a huge living solely off of what they do on YouTube And You know if we monetized our channel
- 53:47
- Um, we could make some serious bucks But we chose a long time ago not to do that primary reason was so that YouTube would not be able to control what we said and The reason we do this is so that we can say what we need to say we'll trust
- 54:03
- God's people to support us and You all have done so and I ask you to continue doing so here at the end of the year
- 54:12
- Um We definitely need that that support but we can trust
- 54:18
- God's people to do that and so we don't have to Engage in that kind of activity, but someone who is dependent upon that kind of income from having followers that that's going to impact how they behave what they say what they're willing to say and not say and Really?
- 54:41
- It has a huge negative impact upon the truth content of What they're saying?
- 54:49
- and there are good people who do that and Then there are people who are obviously just attacking
- 54:57
- Christianity, which is what Billy Carson's doing. He certainly has very strongly strong anti -christian views
- 55:07
- So my congratulations to West Huff it was very satisfying to hear someone
- 55:16
- You know Knows knows the difference between the Gospel of Barnabas and Epistle of Barnabas and knows what's in Sinaiticus and and He says he does a lot of work in papyrology and things like that.
- 55:32
- I think he and I would have a He and I I would probably have an awesome dinner a lunch
- 55:40
- That would leave the people sitting at the tables around us Wondering if we were space aliens ourselves
- 55:48
- Discussing, you know, I'd like to do I'd like to talk to him about the doctoral work.
- 55:53
- I was doing in South Africa on p45 and CBGM and I would still love to finish that complete that That stuff but the man that I wanted to do it with has had to retire because of a heart attack, so I Don't think it's ever gonna happen, but still fascinated by it, and I still think it's very valuable stuff, but sounds like the kind of guy
- 56:23
- I could have that kind of conversation with Fasting background and history that he has in Languages and things like that So it was really neat to hear someone be able to Take that stuff on because as I have said for years and years and years.
- 56:38
- I think one of the real weaknesses in Apologetics in the church today is that most apologists
- 56:47
- Have no knowledge of languages. They don't know Churches church history biblical history.
- 56:54
- You don't know anything about the manuscripts That they can't you can't hand them
- 57:02
- Nessie Allen text with UBS fifth text or or a volume of the ECM and They won't have any idea what they're looking at.
- 57:10
- They won't be able to you say well, here's the variant. What what do you think? Well, no,
- 57:15
- I've never heard of it before I think it's one of the weaknesses and so it's really neat to hear someone else saying the same things and Who's obviously got a whole lot more energy
- 57:29
- Or a lot younger In fact, I I'm not sure how old he is, but I'm there's absolutely zero question
- 57:37
- That I definitely old enough to be his father and probably older than that So, yeah, that's that's that's exciting to see
- 57:47
- Because as I said, I'm not getting any younger. So it's it's neat to see that kind of thing Out there and to see it done.
- 57:53
- So well with the the patients in Trying to explain even though he
- 58:02
- Did not get the opportunity to even finish his points on hermeneutics the host just Uh Almost had a visceral response to his attempt to explain what
- 58:20
- Paul was saying to the Ephesians and God wouldn't do that. If you want the Bible to be read by people in other places and just Wow just These guys don't realize
- 58:29
- The presuppositions they have that they have accepted without ever having examined them whatever ever having thought through them
- 58:38
- It's uh, it's pretty amazing so Anyway, uh, you might find if you find it online
- 58:50
- You might find the first like 90 minutes and then it sort of went off Maybe neither you'd certainly get everything you needed out of the first hour.
- 59:00
- I would say and If you just want to hear the actual topic
- 59:05
- Which was supposed to be the crucifixion of Jesus that didn't take long and As the other guy who put that 16 minute video,
- 59:14
- I think it was 16 minutes was something like that as he said Carson's own followers were turning on him because they could see
- 59:24
- That he had not been prepared He did not have answers. He capitulated on key
- 59:30
- Key elements of his own presentation early on and then tried to run off to other areas
- 59:39
- Wow, that was It the response I'm seeing is very similar to what happened eight and a half years ago when
- 59:49
- I debated elder Raka of the black Hebrew Israelites and He simply collapsed
- 59:56
- Now we didn't have the dynamic of all the money back then But very similar type of thing in that in that context, too so Well, yes, it is eight o 'clock.
- 01:00:09
- What can I say? Anyways, all right. So this is the last road trip
- 01:00:16
- DL Lord willing I get through the construction and get down the hill safely back to Phoenix tomorrow
- 01:00:26
- I've got to get this emptied out take down my Christmas lights in my Christmas tree. Yeah, I have a little Christmas tree over there
- 01:00:33
- Hey, what am I gonna do? Not I've even got some little lights outside everybody at the RV parks thinks it's great and A lot of other people do the same thing at RV parks, but get her all cleaned out over the weekend and then
- 01:00:47
- Monday take her in and my water pump died and we've got
- 01:00:55
- We've got some issues the slide outs. I mean they're working just fine, but Got some electrical things that were like That's not supposed to work that way.
- 01:01:03
- So, you know, I Hit some craters today and I even knew they were coming doggone it
- 01:01:12
- I'm not gonna okay. I'm not gonna complain about the New Mexico Highway Department again, but just take my word for it
- 01:01:22
- Drive 45 miles per hour You'll get run over but drive 45 miles per hour 20 miles on either side of Gallup, New Mexico because those roads should be illegal and man,
- 01:01:35
- I Found stuff halfway across this poor unit when
- 01:01:40
- I got here today it got beat up and I I was trying to avoid him that's trying the best
- 01:01:46
- I could but It's almost like they're getting worse And they've been that way since 2021 when
- 01:01:51
- I started traveling so it's just like they're never gonna get fixed and there aren't too many other routes
- 01:01:57
- I can take so You live with it. So anyways, we've got a few things to fix here
- 01:02:03
- Travel fund covers that if you want to help along the lines of the travel fund and of course end of the year you're not gonna be getting a bunch of begging letters from us, but I just will mention that The end of the year normally puts us into black as well and so it's your donations that keep allowing us to do the traveling and the debates and and things like that and so we deeply appreciate that and have appreciated that now for 41 and a half years almost now something like that.
- 01:02:38
- It's a Long time long time. We're gonna keep doing it as long as the Lord gives us the strength to do so and with your support so thank you for watching today and Listening and I hope it was useful to you and we will see you next time on the dividing line