Discussed the Pope's Illness then Calls

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 and now with today's topic here is James White. And good afternoon welcome to the dividing line.

I Cannot hear myself at all, but that's okay. That's how we start things off on the program each and every dividing line. We just I don't know. You know once you flip the switch things work differently than when you don't flip the switch.

I guess that's what it is. But I can I can handle not hearing myself. Anyways, um, I was just thinking about playing some of this thing here and then I realized Unfortunately when you reinstall your system that there's there's no way to do that.

Because all the stuff that I had on my sticky notes are gone. I mean, there's still there someplace. But I had to do all this Mental gymnastics to figure out how to get that program to work and I can't do that while being on the air at the same time so Yeah, I was noticing that.

So anyway, 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 I I don't honestly remember where we were in the Patterson stuff might just throw it in the middle someplace and and You know, but For those of you see if I if I talked loud enough then it breaks through it and if I go down there there Whatever you did just did changed everything.

I'm out of the mushy Yicky stuff and and now I can actually hear something. So I Everybody's looking at me. I don't touch your stuff. That's that's the guy over there pointed pointed that guy over there with the likes all the lights and things like that.

That's I don't I don't go over there and play with that stuff. Don't don't look at me anyways, we have a Announce yet more announcements to make real quick here, but no music to play. So let's go ahead and once again Bring on mr. Mr. Alaska.

Hi Mike. You're on oh I didn't want that to happen. Oh I'm sorry. It says it says on my screen Bring Mike on for just a bit. That's I'm doing what I was told to do, you know. Okay, you called why?

Well, because I don't have real one player installed on my computer. So I thought we had an announcement here, you know the most expensive real one listener around. No, I guess we do have some announcement here that are very important and that's that we are running out of inventory.

Right now on our Alaskan cruise, as you know. Now explain to folks.

Inventory sounds like books and CDs and things like that. You're you're in that industry. What is inventory?

Inventory means cabins. Ah space. And if the problem is folks is that we are basically the only game in town right now. If you want to sign on for this particular cruise, you can't get on a Travelocity or Expedia or even through princess itself.

We are the only ones holding cabins right now and You know in a very very bad way princess would like to get some of those cabins back. But not only that but we we are filling up quickly and as soon as we run out of cabins folks.

We're done no more cabin. Hmm and in and I'm about ready to send out an email to a lot of our past cruisers. Explain. You know, this is not just about an Alaskan cruise and hanging out and seeing what dr. White eats during a week.

Hey. What's that supposed to mean? Well, I mean you have an interesting, you know selection of foods that you usually stick with.

You mean a less than interesting selection of foods. I stick with isn't that what you really mean. Hamburgers and steak. Well Believe if they had. Believe me I was looking for the tacos on the last trip, man.

I was I was looking all over the place. We were on a Mexican trip and we didn't have any tacos.

It just didn't make any sense. It says as the waiter comes by. So would you like some caviar? He does not give any salsa.

Can I get some salt for these chips, please. There brother, thank you appreciate that.

No, but the thing is folks is that this is not even really like one of our reguses that we've done. This is really taking a whole other flavor to it and and that being that There is going to be the on-board debate between Dr. James White and his partner Dr. James Renahan against John Dominic Croston and Marcus Bork is with the Jesus seminar.

This is not going to be an opportunity that you're going to even have to be able to listen to a CD or anything. Because it will not be recorded while on board. So you get seven days of apologetics ship with Steve camp.

You get the on-board debate or you you are the only ones that are going to ever hear that. Right there on the ship. And then also you get the beauty of Alaska going all the way up through the inside passage.

So what's what's the time frames here? What what what what do we need to tell people so they've you know. Most folks need something concrete.

That's a look at I have negotiated with with princess. We had a March 1st deadline. Which is just coming up in a couple days. Yes. We've moved that up to March 15th. So you have till March 15th to be able to go ahead and all you got to do is just put down a $350 deposit the finals not due till June 1st.

So if it's a you do have a lot of time to be able to pay for the rest of it. Up until June 1st, but we just need you to if you are planning on going. We're thinking about it. I have been weighing it in your mind.

We're expecting to talk to your spouse about it. Now's the time to do this. Other will be out of I don't want to say out of luck. But you'll be out of grace. You're not going to be able to get on the ship and we want to make sure that we give the opportunity for everyone to Be able to do that, right?

Alrighty. Well, so it's going to be. Not going to be any open open cabins on this this cruise to Alaska.

No, I think it's going to be very similar if you remember back a couple years ago James. When we were on the Zondon and cruising the Eastern Caribbean. We ran out of cabins Hmm and we had all sorts of upset people that couldn't get on board or when a couple did finally free up later on.

The price was twice what ours was originally. Hmm. So we just don't want to see you in that situation. We want to make sure that you folks get a chance to get on board with us and enjoy not only the seven days with Us in ministry, but also the debate on board which is going to be historic.

That it will. All right, sir. Well, I'm sorry to bring you on when you weren't expecting to but I can only do what I'm told to do. You know what I mean?

Well now if I can go back to listening to the program.

Well that assumes I'm gonna have something worthwhile to say so yes, you can you can do that. So I will uh, I will I will put you back on hold here and thank you for joining us, sir. At least I tried to do that.

I'll let the people on the other side. Well, it's flashing. So I guess that means that's the way thank you. All right. Well, anyway Yeah, you know I wasn't good time with this I've seen so far like three Comments You know, the big news today is Fox News is is all over this one.

The the failing health of the Roman pontiff is the big news of the day and You know There are very few people who have my I guess I would use the phrase credentials as one who has opposed the Roman Catholic system and Roman Catholic theology and Obviously, I find it extremely offensive that the Roman Catholic Pope utilizes such terms as Holy Father Which Jesus only used of the Father himself Vicar of Christ who would be the Holy Spirit.

There is nothing about the the perversion of biblical truth that the papacy represents that I would even begin to Accept or anything like that. But I've I've seen like three different jokes that have gone by about his current state and and I just Not only do I just remind folks that there are people who sit in channel or they listen to us speaking.

We don't know where they are. We don't know where they're coming from. We don't know what their issues are right now and We would be in a really hard hard pressed To defend any kind of statement like that, but I just don't understand it.

I mean, I I really don't that that's. It's one thing to oppose the theology. It's something completely different to engage in. I just I understand it. It leaves me completely befuddled and You know, obviously what what you do is.

You know, we everyone knows that the current pontiff is not going to be living much longer. He his pontificate has lasted longer than any other Pope of recent memory I've forgotten how long it's been since there was a Pope that was sitting upon the chair of Peter in Rome as they claim for as long as this one and There's gonna be some major major changes coming there.

No, no two ways about it. That's there's gonna be some some major league things coming down the pipe and what we should be thinking about is How are we going to respond to that? You know, I start thinking about and I still think yeah Evangelicalism is in a is in bad shape.

As far as responding what's gonna be happening in Rome. Am I not right if you're asking what why would you say that well Think about it. Responding to new challenges and especially let's let's come up with a theoretical situation here.

Let's say the next pontiff and generally the the man who comes in after a long long pontificate this isn't always the case, but historically anyways a person who comes in after a long long pontificate isn't going to be there long and And There's gonna be a lot of displeasure about whatever he does because he's not the last guy.

I mean the last guy has Has what he has built up remember when you know and when Bush was elected he said he has political capital to spend and In in essence this Pope has a lot of political capital. Except it's more well part of it is political and part of it is religious.

He's got a fair amount of of Capital just simply from having been pontiff for so long the next guy has none of that and You know it's like it's like becoming the pastor of a church after someone you know who's sort of like You know built the place you never want to be the next guy.

That's that's the last thing on the planet you want to do because Everybody's could be comparing you to the last guy and and the worst thing is if the last guy sticks around. That's not the issue with the papacy of course, but if the last guy sticks around that is the perfect recipe for a church split or the the second guy lasting about six months and then he just pulls his hair out and runs screaming into the night and has never heard of again.

And so the next guy whatever he does he's going to be taking heat one way or the other and Let's say just for the sake of argumentation That the next guy is not as conservative and the chances obviously from my perspective the chances are far greater that the next person the next cardinal probably who will be elected as as Pope is not going to be as Conservative As the current pontiff and so What What is going to be incumbent upon us?

Let's say he well here. This is a real obvious one look at the top the topic of the Of the debate that we're going to be doing so much of the theological community of Roman Catholicism Is Very much in love with the concept of inclusivism.

The majority of theologians as far as I can tell are inclusivists today within Roman Catholicism and within liberal Protestantism as well the the uniqueness of the gospel message of union with Christ is Just simply you know that that's old-style.

That's that's offensive to to postmoderns, and so you know How will evangelicalism respond? If you see in the pontiff a much more open and official establishment of The continuing degradation of Roman Catholic theology at this point.

I do consider it degradation. I mean, it's it's one thing to say Rome is wrong about justification which it is. It's one thing to say Rome is wrong about the mass and the atonement which of course it is and to say it has no Gospel at all, but I've always found it considerably easier to talk to Roman Catholic who actually believed those things.

Then to talk to the liberal Roman Catholic who? Doesn't really believe what Rome has taught all along and Is willing to look back upon the clear statements That have come forth in the Roman Magisterium over the years concerning the absolute necessity explicitly is of no solace.

What did that mean and it's not? Impossible only postmoderns think that it's impossible to find out what someone believed by that what that meant to them. You can just you can just stand back and go okay this person said it.

How then did they act? Did they did they engage in ecumenical dialogue the way that Rome does today? Did they? You know accept schismatics and Heretics as brothers and sisters in Christ and all the rest of stuff, and it's obvious So clear that they did not back in in the day.

And in fact you can go right through to the papal syllabus of errors in the 1800s and 19th century and what that meant Was was fairly clear. But that's changed now and You have to really engage in historical revisionism to not see that that has changed and It's hard to talk to those folks that it's like nailing jello to the wall.

Because there's no substance you can't hold them accountable to anything quote anything you want to quote from historical documents, and it's all subject to the death of a thousand qualifications and Of course they look at you in a while now.

You're just being way too. You know you're just being way too stringent here. You're not allowing the you know the Magisterium and the theologians to interpret words. And you know all the rest is stuff that they throw around.

So let's say just for the fun of it that the next Pope is very liberal or at least more liberal and we see a movement toward the concept of inclusivism being very much Established as the official position of the church not just functionally as it is already, but in a dogmatic way is Evangelicalism prepared we can't even get inclusivists of ETS.

We've got Clark Pinnock running around. How on earth are we supposed to to respond meaningfully. To Roman Catholic what about the conservative Catholic who becomes very disillusioned and recognizes. You know what what this pontiff is teaching now is directly contradictory To what was taught by pontiffs for literally hundreds and hundreds of years and the logical Reasoning would be if for hundreds nay.

Thousands of years well at least over a thousand years. People that I consider to be the Vicar's of Christ taught X and the person claiming to be a Vicar of Christ today is teaching not X. Then the logical result of that is what well the guy today is the guy who's out of the loop.

Not the people who taught something consistently for a long long time and. So are we going to be in any position? To speak to those people not if you're you know part of this this. You know anti-intellectual Evangelicalism.

That doesn't believe that you know if you're if you're running around saying well. You know it doesn't really matter what you believe in you. So as we just say Jesus three times you're not to be in any position to talk to these people.

Are you of course not? Is evangelicalism in a position to respond? To whatever happens in the changes that are right around the corner. It's odd. I'm. It's wouldn't it be really really interesting. I'm gonna be in Rome in the middle of March.

Wouldn't be interesting if I get to see the puff of smoke. That would be very very interesting for those of you who don't know what that is. That's the means by which it is announced that the Cardinals have elected a new Pope is this puff of smoke is is released.

And and I'm a little surprised that the environmentalists haven't gotten all over that one yet, but anyway I have a feeling that's not too far down the road and This has prompted all sorts of discussions by the way in light of the great expansion of Medical technology that was not a part of human history and so just the past few decades.

About the idea of a of a Pope remaining Pope until death because with extraordinary means you can you can literally deprive the Roman Catholic Church of its chosen leadership for years on end by by utilization of technology and so it's raised all sorts of issues not so much about euthanasia of course as it's raised issues concerning what concerning succession concerning the concept of The concept of having a a pontiff who is able to in essence resign the office and Why why shouldn't that be really is is a question a lot of people are asking?

Why why shouldn't that be? Something that would be considered and In fact allowed for that's that's a good question, too. So anyway, I just think there are going to be opportunities heading our direction.

I Think we need to be prepared to Give an answer for the hope is within us and yet do so remember what Peter said with gentleness and reverence and. And that's brings me back all the way to the to the comments.

I've seen made that I'm not certainly going to repeat it anyway. Concerning the current situation, and it's just like where's the reverence part there. Where's the jealous and reverence part? I don't don't understand it.

As soon as I saw when I sat here going how am I going to address this because this is you know? I don't want to really just offend somebody right out of their socks, but the same time. That's just not right.

It's just no that's. That's just that's not how approach it so anyway eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number I was. Has those of you who've been? Looking at my blog no The.

For some odd reason my volume is sliding. I'm not sure why it is, but anyways I've been doing the Reinstall windows reinstall your programs thing man. That is a pain. Oh Yeah, yeah, yeah, especially when I found out what?

Specifically was causing the problem that we couldn't have found out if we hadn't you know reinstalled. It was just one of those hindsight things where once you reinstall and you're doing so oh there.

Oh look at that. Oh my goodness. You know why isn't that program? Consistent with service pack to an RSS. Oh by the way all of you Unix Linux Mac folks I said close the email not send the email, okay?

We've been getting the emails. We've been getting emails from you Mac users you Mac cultists. We've been getting the the Linux stuff you know and And believe me I've got a button now you try calling in here.

I can get ready a real fast. That's all there's to it. There is there is just no functional way that I would be able to leave XP professional. You just don't have any idea how many programs. I've got to do so many different things.

I am a gadget person. I have got gadgets. I've got my palm t3 sitting over here, and I've got my infrared port over here and My cameras and my cell phone and and and all that stuff is XP Pro, I mean, that's it.

I'm a piece. I'm stuck with PC man. I've been on a PC since The first one which had a tiny little green screen and was running at four point seven seven megahertz alright, so there's just There ain't no there ain't no leaving at this point because it would just be silly.

So anyway I'm doing all this stuff. I've lost all my bookmarks. I'm gonna have to reestablish all my RSS feeds. I've lost all that stuff. I had 27 RSS feeds going and and there they're gone. They just I forgot I forgot to save my bookmarks.

I've never done this before in fact those of you who know something about technology and some of you are now going to sleep. But I'll be quick so have you know something about these know that we had been dodging the bullet for a long long time.

And what I mean by that is my body of data. You know we've gone through lots of hard drives. We've gone through lots of system boards. We've gone through lots of computers. We do it all ourselves. But that body of data that we move from hard drive to hard drive from system to system Goes way back.

It's minimally it was minimally and is minimally an upgrade from win 98 to win 2k to win XP Pro and Those who do this stuff a lot saying yeah. Don't know. Why don't you just do a clean install and then reinstall everything and I kept saying you have no idea how long.

Oh, believe me. Yes. I skipped Windows me that that was not even a Windows operating system people that was win 98 service pack 3 undebugged. That was just the worst thing that was ever thrown out there, but anyway We had actually dodged a bullet for a long time you're normally not supposed to be able to upgrade upgrade upgrade and actually have it work and We finally ran to something that just you know you we tried to put a new motherboard in it.

That's supposed to be just super high speed and the rest of stuff in it, so I was sitting here. And I'm gonna be perfectly honest with you. I wasn't overly happy starting the program. Because now Norton is causing me all sorts of difficulties.

I've deinstalled it twice, and it says it's still there and won't reinstall and so now I can't send email and So no, I'm not. I'm beaten on this thing with with a sledgehammer at the moment. And we'll we'll get it will get it fixed one way or another some of you going.

I'm glad you can't send email, but anyways as I was saying I've lost all my RSS feeds, but I at least was looking at One of the feeds I used to get because I'm going to try to find the little program that will work with Mozilla Firefox and use that in the future but did y 'all notice the the discussion of the member of corn KOR n you've seen the.

The things on windows of people going by that are their music so loud that it's causing the windows to bow. You know I hate those things and Just read a little notice that Brian Welch founding guitarist of the heady heady heavy metal rock group KOR n has left the band after converting to Christianity.

A Statement on the band's website explains KOR n has parted ways with guitarist Brian head Welch. Who has chosen the Lord Jesus Christ as his Savior and will be dedicating his musical pursuits to that end?

Welch allegedly cited moral objections to some of the group's lyrics. Some of the group's lyrics. Welch allegedly cited moral objections to some of the group's lyrics and Videos as reason for his departure and said in a radio interview I think if kids if they want to go and you know listen to KOR n stuff then good.

But there's happiness too. You know after the anger. Well Obviously we pray that the Lord has indeed done a work of grace and Brian Welch's heart. But there is something there about the idea of there's there's happiness after the anger and that is that is rather rather interesting, so anyways also, did you see that there is a a a PG version of the passion coming out.

The Christian bookseller Association website says that a new non R-rated version of the passion of the Christ we released for the Easter season. Between five and six minutes the most violent images from Mel Gibson's movie on the death of Jesus will be edited out.

Unfortunately we cannot get an Orthodox version of the passion. Which gets rid of all the Marion stuff and all the rest of that that stuff that went with it along along the way eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one.

I've got to get used to where my clock is now. It's back in the task bar instead of floating around. I could move that but it's just you know right now main thing is to try to get functionality back, which I had until Norton decided to go nuts and so the next stop is reg edit.

Which means we will be Installing the whole thing here fairly soon. Unfortunately actually I probably need to deinstall ghost first see if I can get rid of all of it that way and then go reg edit. And anyway, no fun folks.

We're gonna go ahead and take a break. We have one caller online, and we'll take your calls at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. We'll be right back right after this.

Today. So many stars strong and true quickly fall away.

Under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality. Even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior.

In their book the same-sex Controversy James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the Bible's teaching on the subject. Explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including Genesis Leviticus and Romans.

Expanding on these scriptures they refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law in a straightforward and loving manner. They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people.

The same-sex controversy defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality. Get your copy in the bookstore at a omen or.

Alaska the unspoiled land of nature and immensity both in its realities and its possibilities. Alaska can stir our hearts and minds like no other place on earth. Join us this summer for the 2005 Alpha-Omega ministries Alaskan cruise as we cruise the inside passage to the great land of Alaska with dr James White and Christian recording artist Steve camp as they explore the great doctrine of solo scriptura.

For our guests the journey north is an odyssey of glorious landscapes and majestic wildlife As we sail on the luxury five-star Sun Princess by towering glaciers into some of the most remarkable points on earth.

All this and a price is beginning at six hundred twenty four dollars per person. Plus for taxes and fees half the price of other offerings to Alaska with other groups. Contact us today at a omen org or at eight seven seven SOV cruise.

Millions of petitioners from around the world are employing Pope John Paul the second to recognize the Virgin Mary as co-redeemer with Christ. Elevating the topic of Roman Catholic views of Mary to national headlines and widespread discussion.

In his book Mary another redeemer James White sidesteps hostile rhetoric and cites directly from Roman Catholic sources to explore this volatile topic. He traces how Mary of the Bible esteemed mother of the Lord obedient servant and chosen vessel of God Has become the immaculately conceived bodily assumed Queen of Heaven.

Viewed as co-mediator with Christ and now recognized as co-redeemer by many in the Roman Catholic Church Mary another redeemer is fresh insight into the woman the Bible calls a blessed among women. And an invitation to single-minded devotion to God's truth.

You can order your copy of James White's book. Mary another redeemer at a omen org.

This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church.

The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45. Evening services are at 6 30 p .m.

On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 -26 grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org.

Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

And welcome back to the dividing line.

I was just noticing in channel someone brought up something more about the corn guitarist Welch who had left that said Welch is scheduled to speak at church services This weekend at Valley Bible Fellowship in Bakersfield, and I went huh, that's not good.

He does not need to be speaking. You know, but oh, but it's great story. No, no, no, no. No, that's where we ruin these people. That's where he ruined these people. How many people have you seen? Who claim to have a conversion experience and they come out of something like this and Immediately they're on the road and they're traveling around and they're telling their story.

We don't need the story. Maybe down the road. That man needs to be in church. He needs to grow he needs to be grounded. He's been living in a worldview that is so far Removed from the Bible and from Christianity that you can't just assume That he's ready to go.

No, there's gonna be a process of change. There's gonna be a process of growth and The man needs to be around mature Christians not traveling Doing the show thing again. Why do we need this? What why do we want to hear stories like this.

I want to hear about what it was like. Why don't we have enough good stories in our own churches. Isn't it better to hear about a Christian who was raised in the faith and Who was kept out of all that stuff.

So I just you know, I just see that I go man there. There's I could be wrong. Maybe that's the church he's at. I don't know, but if this isn't the church where he is being discipled. Why is he out there on the road?

Why is he doing that? This isn't the time for that. It's time to grow. It's time to become grounded that's Just seems rather practical to me eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. Let's Let's head up to where I'm gonna be in October.

Stretch stretch stretch while hitting the palm t3 and going to month of you and going October 14th 15th and 16th. For the Bible conference up there in Omaha, Nebraska and talk to Paul. Hi Paul.

Hello, Paul. How are you? Yeah, I'm great. How's it going? Dr. Why doing good? Um, I was Recently on the Catholic answerance forum. I'm sorry. I was on the Catholic answers for him. No, I said, I'm sorry.

Oh nice Apollonio Latar it responded with an interesting argument that hadn't seen before. Oh, I was just asking him to exegete Romans for you know the man working in the man not working and He seemed he brought up.

He said that the Paul is dealing with the Judaizers in Romans 3 and this extends in a Romans 4 and even though work Is not paired with of law he said that that's his argument here and I. It seems like it should be easy to defeat at the core.

I just wondered if you had Insight into this or heard this argument before and how would you handle it?

I just discovered that the Bible works reset itself back to the King James Version here. That's really depressing. I Don't understand what the argument was. You're gonna have to try to Explain that a little more clearly to me to see What what the argument is in regards to Romans 4, okay.

Yeah, he starts off and he he actually quotes from the guy who justifies. Okay, that's nice and uses from page 205 uses your Pat your Translation for if Abraham is declared righteous by the works of the law.

It's something about us about. Something I would know. Okay. All right, and so he says he has to go and use your book. I I don't have a book handy. So I'm not sure if you're actually quoting from Romans 4 there.

I don't think so.

No, I first of all, I didn't trend that I used the any tea there and I don't believe the any tea. Translates that as works of the law. Let me bring it up here. That's it. Does it does works the law? Yeah.

So he uses that to say well then that shows that we're talking about works of the Torah here.

So you can be justified by works other than of the Torah, yeah, I see yeah. It's a.

Then you just take that into backs it up and just asserts that Romans 3 now is dealing with the Judaizers and So therefore He's not dealing with justification by faith alone, but dealing with Those who've demanded that people use Before they can become.

You know, I don't see that in the text. It's pretty clear that he's reading something into it. That's what he thought about all that.

Well a couple things first of all your your modern Catholic apologists are especially under the influence of people like art Sippo and others trying to grab hold of The New Perspective stuff and using it only as far as it is useful to them to use it but not taking it so far as New Perspective is due because obviously the New Perspective perspective would be contradictory to both the historic Protestant position as well as the Roman Catholic position and As such they can only use certain elements of New Perspective ism and so it's actually an old argument to try to say that all that's being addressed by Paul is Doing works which specifically well, there's two two two forms of it the better form which Is more advanced than certain people you might be dialoguing with would understand.

The the better form and the older form of it is well what's going on here really is Paul's only talking about Ceremonial laws he's not talking about fulfilling the commands of Christ or the laws of Christ as we understand them and interpret them and so they try to make a distinction within law between Ceremonial and moral and basis and basically saying all Paul's talking about when he talks about Namas and he talks about Torah Is the ceremonial aspect and that actually has some connections to certain elements of the New Perspective concept those especially Specifically that are focused upon the idea that what you've got going on here are the national symbols of Judaism and That you're just dealing with the idea of becoming a Jew before you become a Christian so on so forth Joining into the Covenant bearing the the Covenant signs so on so forth now this idea that it's well.