September 11, 2017 Show with Pastors Ron Glass & Kirk Van Der Swaagh with “The Pastors’ Roundtable: God’s Sovereignty over 9/11”

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now, here's our host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth.

We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this

11th day of September 2017.

And today, because of the fact that we are once again commemorating

the worst terrorist attack on American soil from a foreign enemy

in United States history on September 11th, 2001, we are

having the first Pastors Roundtable on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio since we left

New York and relocated here to Pennsylvania.

This is a feature of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio that was very popular when we were broadcasting out

of WNYG and WGBB radio in New York, and I intend to

perhaps have it as either a weekly or monthly feature.

I haven't decided yet, but this will be the first of, God willing, I hope,

many Pastors Roundtables to come.

And I want to thank our guests for being willing to accept the invitation to

participate in this Pastors Roundtable at very late notice.

I was intending to actually run a rerun today of last year's

September 11th Iron Sharpens Iron program featuring David Carnes.

Some of you may remember Staff Sergeant David Carnes, who was one of the heroes

involved, in fact, the primary hero who was involved in rescuing some

transit police officers who were trapped beneath the rubble of one of the Twin Towers that collapsed

on 9 -11.

David Carnes is a born -again believer, and I had him on the program last year.

In fact, if any of you saw the movie Twin Towers

with Dennis Cage, I believe that's his name.

If any of you saw that movie, Staff Sergeant David Carnes had a very primary

role in that film.

Not the actual David Carnes, the character of David Carnes was a primary role in that

film.

And so today we are going to do a Pastors Roundtable

program addressing that very same issue, in fact, with more of a theological bent to

it.

This year, our September 11th broadcast is on the theme, God's Sovereignty

over 9 -11, and we have featured on our panel today Pastor Ron

Glass of Wading River Baptist Church of Wading River, Long Island, New York, Pastor Kirk

Vanderswag of Neighborhood Church of Greenwich Village, New York City, and the Reverend Buzz

Taylor, who you've all heard as our regular co -host on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Today he is going to be more of a co -guest, if you will, or a panel member

on the Pastors Roundtable.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question regarding this very important topic, and very

controversial topic, and very misunderstood topic, our email address is chrisarnsen

at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

And please, as always, give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence, and your country of residence

if you live outside of the USA.

If it makes you feel more comfortable, you may remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter, and

obviously a subject like this could lend itself to someone wanting to ask a personal and private matter, especially if your

life was dramatically affected because of 9 -11, especially in 2001.

But other than that, other than a personal and private matter, please at least give us your first name, your city and state, and your

country of residence.

By the way, I do have to quickly give a thanks to you in the audience

who have answered the SOS, if you will, or responded to the SOS that Iron

Sharpens Iron radio has been giving out daily due to our urgent need

for new donations and benefactors and advertisers.

Well, the checks have been slowly but surely coming in again, and I

thank God for you taking heed to those public

appeals for donations.

And we've got donations coming in from listeners that I have never heard from before, who

have never donated to my knowledge before, nor have they even sent in emails with

questions for our guests before.

So these are new people to me, one from Shirts, Texas, one from

Portersville, California, and thank you for sending in those greatly needed checks.

And I thank all of the other listeners in our audience, not only who have been praying for Iron

Sharpens Iron to receive the needed funds required to keep this program on the air, but also those who

actually sent in checks yourself.

And I have received a number of emails from a number of you who have told me that

you are sending in checks, and I thank God for you.

So before we go into the topic, let me introduce our panelists today.

First, we have one of my dearest friends on the planet Earth and his congregation, Waiting River

Baptist Church, you hear regularly advertised on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Without the generosity of Waiting River Baptist Church and Waiting River Long Island, New York, Iron Sharpens Iron Radio would likely

not even exist.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens.

Iron Radio, Pastor Ron Glass of Waiting River Baptist Church.

Thanks, Chris.

It's a privilege.

To be with you today.

It's a privilege and honor, as always, to have you as a part of the broadcast.

And also, an old friend of mine who I haven't spoken with in quite a while.

And it's great to have you for the first time, I believe, ever on my program, unless I'm forgetting

a program when we were in New York that you were on.

But Pastor Kirk Vanderswag is the pastor of Neighborhood Church of Greenwich Village,

New York City.

And Neighborhood Church is a member of the Four Seas denomination.

And it's an honor and privilege to have you on the program,.

Pastor Kirk Vanderswag.

Well, thank you, Chris.

No, I don't think I've been on a previous program.

I think we tried to connect a couple of times, but it hasn't happened yet.

But thank you for.

The invitation today.

Oh, it's my pleasure to have you on the program.

And in fact, I wanted to have you on for quite a while, as you know, and providentially that things didn't work out until now.

But I'm glad that you are with us.

Pastor Ron Glass, we'll start with you in getting a little bit of a description of Wading River Baptist Church of Wading

River, Long Island, New York, for those of our listeners who haven't heard you on previous programs.

It is

about two

thirds of the

way out.

Yes,

it does seem

to be

more

of a rare

thing.

And believe it or not, Pastor Ron, I don't know if I don't remember if you brought this up on your interview

on the Millennials and why many of the Millennials are rejecting

church attendance in the gospel.

I was at a conference not long ago where one of the speakers who has done a lot of research on the

Millennials, who has a campus ministry, he was directing a campus ministry in

Princeton, Princeton University in New Jersey.

I don't know if he's still operating that right now, but he said something quite fascinating during the conference.

He said that Millennials, because they tend to be very skeptical of being conned

by slick salesmen and all that kind of thing.

He was telling me that quite a number of Millennials are actually longing for the

traditional worship, such as the kind of worship you offer at Wading River Baptist Church, because they want,

if they are being drawn by God and they are looking for a church, if they are looking for a place to worship and

a place to discover and learn about God, if that is a part of what they are searching for

due to God's drawing, they tend to want something that is not reflective

of their everyday social life and common activity in their day -to -day

lives.

They are looking for something that is more uniquely reflective of worship

and of faith and so on, that stands out from the rest of

their common activities.

Have you found this to be true?

Have you heard of this?

Pastor Ron?

Pastor Kurt Von Der Swarga, are you there?

I am here.

Oh, somehow we lost Pastor Ron.

Well, hopefully Pastor Ron will be joining us back.

Pastor Ron, are you there?

I am.

Oh, well, I'm glad you called back.

Well, to make what I said brief,.

I have heard that many Millennials are searching for just the kind of church

that Wading River Baptist Church is because of the fact that something that would be

against our gut feeling, something that would militate against what we might naturally think,

Millennials are very often looking for traditional worship.

If God is drawing them and they are seeking for truth about God and to worship biblically, they don't

want something that just merely parrots or reflects common use.

The concerts they go to in their social life and so on, they don't want the worship to reflect that.

Have you heard about this phenomenon or discovered.

It yourself?

Yes, and I would simply, and I have

talked

to a program, some of these Millennials

are doing Eastern

Orthodoxy, and that's part,

but that's another.

Yeah, well, after the show's over,.

I'd like to take out my calendar and get you scheduled very soon.

Pastor Kurt Von Der Swarga, tell us about Neighborhood Church of Greenwich Village in New York City, and also about the.

Four C's denomination of which you are a part.

Well, our church is located right in,

and we're a

23 as a kind

of mid

early

90s,

a congregational model,

which form,

which

was

knowledge

of

those

and

a belief

co -moderator.

I'm

going to

test my

memory.

So I'm sorry,

was

somebody

saying

something?

I'm sorry.

If our brother could remind us, what do the four C's stand for?

I was actually going to.

Say that because I wanted to test my memory.

Is it Conservative Christian Congregational Congress?

It's Conservative Congregational Christian Conference.

Conference.

And if you want to, just how

that came about,

I can give that very

briefly.

Larger group.

Again,

four C's became an entity, the church's

entity back

in,

and another merger.

And I'm

going

to.

Repeat our email address.

It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question.

And in studio with me is the Reverend Buzz Taylor, who normally is a co -host when he's on the program, but today

he's going to be one of our panelists.

Why don't you tell, I know that you're not pastoring right now, Reverend Buzz Taylor, but you have pastored

several churches at least.

Why don't you tell us something about.

Your background as a pastor?

I started as an assistant pastor in an independent Baptist church after graduating from Bob Jones University.

And then my first senior pastor, it was in suburb, way out, about 45 miles outside

of Buffalo in a little town called Sandusky.

And if you go 10 miles away from Sandusky and say you're from Sandusky, they say Ohio.

So one of the, anyway, those of you who live there understand that.

But then I pastored a church in the Churches of God, Finley, Ohio.

The church was actually in Pennsylvania, Auburn, Pennsylvania.

And then my last pastor was when I was still living up in Maine.

I was unfortunately trucking at the same time because it was not a self -supporting church.

And when my company sent me over the road, I had to stop pastoring, but I was pastoring

a Reformed Presbyterian church in Fayette, Maine.

And then that brought me down here, and I've been attending a PCA church since I've been here.

Great.

Well, I'd like to start off the program with having each of you give

a summary of where you were when you heard about that horrific

attack on the World Trade Center.

And the Pentagon building.

And of course, there was also a plane that was forced down by the passengers who heroically

basically attacked the terrorists in order to prevent them from

bringing about further harm in a terrorist attack.

And they basically gave their lives in bringing that plane down here in Pennsylvania.

But let's start with you, Pastor Glass.

What were the circumstances surrounding your first hearing about a September 11th attack in

2001?

Because I was actually in my car headed

about a

quarter till.

Now, I know that you are some distance from New York City being in

the towards the eastern end of Suffolk County, although there's a lot more east of you on Long Island, quite

a ride all the way out to the end of Long Island heading east if you were to leave your church parking

lot.

So you're not exactly on the eastern end.

I'm sorry?

We're about 80 miles from Manhattan.

Okay.

Well, yeah, that is one of the reasons I was wondering if you had

anybody in your congregation affected by that attack.

I know it's a far distance, but there are still people I know that commute to New York City from a lot of places on Long Island.

One of our, it

was

actually

the

first

father -in

-law

was trying to

go out to lunch with me.

I married.

One of the

reasons

I was

meeting when he

was located on the 100.

Wow.

And I want to let our listeners know that I had no clue about this story before the program.

This was quite a providential thing for me to ask you because you never, to my knowledge, informed

me of that story.

Quite sad.

Kirk Wonderswag, you were, I'm pretty certain, you were pastoring even back then in New York

City, right in Greenwich Village there.

What can you say about when you first heard about the 9 -11 attack and if

there are any members of your congregation who were

either perished or somehow negatively or dramatically.

Affected by that?

I

mean, I

literally

heard

my

family

was

down

on the

front

stoop.

My

most

vivid memory was when one fellow who came in, it was just

came in.

But then our neighborhood, we

were

evacuated from

Washington,

D .C.

area.

We were told we'll

walk out.

When

I got

to

the

Grand Canyon, I

remember I

got there

just a day on

that Sunday.

Okay.

When I

return

from the

break,.

I'll ask Reverend Buzz Taylor the same question.

And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question or perhaps even just a comment, something that you want

to share about your own experience about September 11th, 2001, our email address is chrisarnsen

at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name as always, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA.

Don't go away.

God willing, we'll be right back after these messages with the pastor's roundtable on Iron Trumpet's Iron Radio.

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God, or am I trying

to please man?

If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a Reformed Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostle's priority, it must not be ours either.

We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be

vessels of mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth and

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If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750.

That's 508 -528 -5750.

Or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our TV program entitled

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Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor Iron Sharpens Iron.

Radio.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday

from 12 noon to 1 pm eastern time on WLIE radio.

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in

with your questions.

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study.

Because everyone needs a pastor.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns.

And if you just tuned in to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, today we are having our very first

pastor's roundtable since we relocated from New York to Pennsylvania.

And we're reviving an old tradition that seemed to be very popular in our days of broadcasting and of New York.

And our featured panel members on our pastor's roundtable today are Pastor Ron Glass of Wading River

Baptist Church of Wading River, New York, Pastor Kirk Vonderswag of Neighborhood Church of Greenwich Village,

and Reverend Buzz Taylor, who is retired from the ministry and the frequent co -host on Iron Sharpens Iron

Radio.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

Our theme is God's Sovereignty over 9 -11.

And I just recalled after hearing that commercial from Pastor Bill

Shishko, that's where I first came into contact with you, Pastor Vonderswag, way back in the early

1990s when Pastor Bill used to have his annual minister's fellowship.

And Bill used to invite me to those even though I was never a pastor because of my work in Christian

radio.

And he always wanted me to be there to be able to direct pastors to promote

their congregations where they were serving as pastor in order to give

a wider audience to those pastors.

And Pastor Bill has radio in his blood and he

believes that it's a very powerful medium, which it is.

And so that's why he invited me every year.

And I recall that's where our friendship began.

And I'm glad to have you finally on the program.

We, oh yeah, we're going to Reverend Buzz Taylor's own experiences on

when he first heard, where he was and how he first heard of the

dreaded attack on American soil here on September 11, 2001.

Well, I was a yard jockey at a plant at the time up in Auburn, Maine.

And I was listening to the radio and I heard the news that a plane had hit the World Trade

Center.

And I didn't know if it was a Piper Cub or what, you know, and I thought, well, what's the matter?

Was the pilot blind or what?

You know, how did he not see that?

And I went in and told some folks in the office there, I said, hey, a plane just ran into the World

Trade Center.

Everybody's like, oh, that's interesting.

And I went out to the truck and then I heard about the second plane.

It's like, oh boy, this is more than I thought it was.

And I went back in and told them another plane has just struck the Trade Center.

And of course, at that point, all work stopped and all the radios came on.

And so I listened to it for the rest of the day and I wasn't able until after work to actually get home

and see on TV what was going on.

It was just, I couldn't believe my eyes when I was watching, you know, that it happened on our

soil.

But I was far enough away to where I didn't know anybody involved, of course, you know, being up in

Maine.

So nobody in my congregations was there or anything like that.

But still, it was just as traumatic, you know, to hear that kind of news.

And things were kind of quiet at home after that.

I remember where I was.

I was in my office in my home.

And that day I was supposed to be at a sales meeting in

New Jersey.

I'm trying to remember if WMCA radio where I worked was in Rutherford at that time or in Hasbrook Heights

because it moved while I was working there over the 15 -year period that I was there.

It moved from Rutherford to Hasbrook Heights.

And I think we were possibly in our new Hasbrook Heights location.

But I was supposed to be in New Jersey that day because

every week we had a sales meeting there.

And that was one of the sales meeting days.

And providentially, I got a call from my sales manager the night before.

He said that the meeting is canceled.

Stay home.

So I was home and was sitting at my computer.

And all of a sudden, I started to get emails one after another from a very good

friend of mine, Pastor Ed Moore of North Shore Baptist Church in Bayside, Queens,

who I was hoping to have also included on the panel today.

But he's at a conference in New Jersey right now.

But I was getting these emails from him.

And then I decided to look more closely at the subject line.

And they all said, pray for families in our church who are in the Twin

Towers.

Like, why on earth is he asking me to pray about that?

And then I opened up one of the emails.

And he basically was saying, I'm sure that most of you know by now that the

Twin Towers are on fire due to a plane crash in one of the towers.

And it is uncertain if it's a terrorist attack yet.

We have family members who are working in those Twin Towers who are members

of our church.

Please pray that they escape safely.

So then I said, well, I got to turn on the news.

And I grabbed the remote control, clicked on the TV set.

And I was staring at the film of the Twin Towers

on fire.

But at the bottom of the screen, it said the Twin Towers have fallen.

And I was like puzzled there.

I was like, how could they be falling?

I'm looking at them right now on fire.

But obviously, they were showing footage from earlier that morning.

And that's how that all began, how I discovered

what had happened on that horrific day.

And then I later found out that a family that moved from the church where I was a member, Grace Reformed Baptist

Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York, I had heard that a family who had moved to

Pennsylvania, that the plane had crashed in Pennsylvania, the

one that the passengers heroically took down by

attacking the terrorists.

That plane had crashed very, very reasonably

close to where that family lived in Pennsylvania, I believe it was just a small strip of woods,

separating their neighborhood from the crash site.

So that was quite an interesting thing that occurred there in Pennsylvania

with the members of our former members of our church.

But one of the things I'd like to start with you, Pastor Ron,

there is a temptation, well -meaning temptation for people,

especially Christians and even more so men in the ministry.

They want to reach out with comfort and peace.

And they want to lift the spirits, perhaps say something inspiring

to people during calamities such as this, whether they are natural disasters like what

was going on in Florida just over the weekend here,

and people still dealing with the aftermath of that, or something like

9 -11, where you have actually evil human beings participating in the

horrific event.

You have the tendency of people in the ministry, well -meaning, and it's likely, largely,

predominantly due to the fact that these ministers and Christians are ill -informed in regard to

what the scriptures say in regard to God's sovereignty.

But they will typically, especially the more famous ones like Billy Graham and others, when they are given the

opportunity to say something on television, they will say words that really remove

God completely out of the situation.

They will be hearing that, you know, I can even recall while working for WMCA that there

were some ministers who were invited to record one -minute

messages of biblical encouragement after 9 -11, and some of them were saying things that

I believe were totally antithetical to what the scriptures teach on God's sovereignty.

Some of these men, even conservative fundamentalists, Baptists, and so on, were saying God had nothing to do with 9 -11.

How do you respond to that kind of attempt to remove God from

situations like this?

And some of it is because they want to defend His character, defend God's character, and

the fact that He is an all -loving God.

They don't want to say anything that they believe is going to besmirch the character of God, so

they go overboard and actually wind up saying things that are untrue, in my opinion.

How do you respond to that, Pastor Glass, first of all?

Pastor Glass

My

experience

is

probably

what we

deserve.

Pat Robertson responded and said, Jerry,

that's my fear.

The abortionist God will

not be mocked.

When we destroy 40 million

little innocent alternative

lifestyles, they'll finger

in their face

and

say,

well, I

totally

concur.

God

will

never

know,

which

meant

you will

all did

not find

any.

The

second

thing He

taught

us is

that natural

disasters

will all likewise perish.

And I think that's the great lesson of 9 -11.

It's the great lesson

not that we're more

evil than the rest, but rather that we're more evil than the rest.

Before I move on to Pastor Vonderswag, would you say, though, in spite of perhaps

some of the reckless way that Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson

responded to this situation I'm no fan of Pat Robertson, I have to be

completely honest.

I think in many ways he embarrasses the body of Christ with some of the

very heretical things he participates in on his program.

And people get the idea that that's what genuine Christianity is.

But he has a much smaller audience today.

But I happen to, when hearing those things,

even if they were mishandled by those two men, there is a candy coating

by many conservative Christians over the sins of America.

They may be very pro -life.

They may be very adamantly and aggressively and publicly opposed to Democrats and liberals and so on.

But when it comes to the pride of our nation,

and turning the correct respect of

God, country, or should I say of the country and the American flag

and all that, there's I think a dangerous level of idolatry towards this

country where great sins like the infanticide going on here through abortion,

like the legalization of same sex marriage, which obviously was not

in existence during the September 11th attack of 2001, but it is something that's

just come about through the progressive deterioration of our culture.

Aren't these things that American citizens, and especially Christians, who

need to say, America, we must repent.

And these things that may be coming into our country to wreak

havoc amongst us, and the calamity

and the horror that we see, and what we've seen in 9 -11, but which

may come about even in greater measure in the future.

Isn't there a biblical precedent.

With the nation of Israel, for instance, of things like this happening?

The thing about it is,

God is

well -advised to

those of

us who, let

me just

say one

other

thing,

there's

a lot

of thought.

There is an

amazing man named

John

McTernan in a

book called As America.

You get through

it, and you say, this stuff's not coincidental.

It can't be.

There are too many times where America,

and almost immediately, that

includes Katrina.

I've been reminded about, again, in light of the

hurricanes this weekend, and 9 -11, the same thing.

And I was looking,

remind myself that there were news stories in this past week about the Trump administration

demanding that Israel, given he

never has

done that.

All

right,

we're

going to be

returning.

From our break.

It's an elongated break because of the requirements of Grace Life Radio, 90

.1 FM, in Lake City, Florida.

And I have to check up on them to make sure all is well down there.

I've been checking up on a lot of my friends in Florida, and I will check up on them as well today.

But they require our program in two 54 -minute chunks.

So we're going on an elongated break.

But when we return, we'll hear from Pastor Kirk Vonderswag, and we will hear from Reverend Buzz Taylor about their own

thoughts on God's sovereignty over 9 -11.

Don't go away.

We're going to be back.

After these messages, God willing.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

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Hi,

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnsen.

If you just tuned us in, our guests today on the Pastors' Roundtable are

Pastor Ron Glass of Wading River Baptist Church on Long Island, New York, Pastor Kirk

Vanderswag of the Neighborhood Church of Greenwich Village, New York City, and Reverend Buzz Taylor,

who is, as you know, a frequent co -host on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

We are having a Pastors' Roundtable today on the issue God's Sovereignty over 9 -11, commemorating

that horrific attack on American soil, bringing about the greatest number

of lost lives on American soil from an enemy attack in the history of our nation.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is ChrisArnsen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnsen at gmail .com.

And we are going to be announcing before we return to our discussion some special events that

some of the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio sponsors are orchestrating and having in the very near

future.

First of all, our friends at the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York,

in cooperation with the Long Island Spurgeon Fellowship, are having the Gospel of the

Reformation 500th Anniversary Celebration, featuring a dear friend of mine, Dr. Tony Costa,

who is in the faculty at Toronto Baptist Seminary, serving as their professor

of apologetics and Islam.

If you would like to join me there, God willing, I intend to be there on

Friday, September 28th and Saturday, September 29th, you can go to

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If you would like to join me there at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, on Sunday, October 1st, at

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Town Conference on Reform Theology, November 17th through the 18th, at the

Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania.

The theme will be, For Still Our Ancient Foe, a line from A Mighty Fortress, that great classical

Reformation hymn by Martin Luther, in reference to Satan, of course, our ancient foe.

The speakers include Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant.

If you would like to join me there, where I intend to have an Iron Sharpens Radio

exhibitors booth, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org, and

click on Events, and then click on Quaker Town Conference on Reform

Theology.

And then after that, the G3 Conference returns to Atlanta, Georgia, and I

intend to be there as well, God willing, from the 17th through the 20th of January,

on the theme, Knowing God, a Biblical Understanding of Discipleship.

The 17th of January will be exclusively a Spanish -speaking edition of the conference, and from the

18th through the 20th will be exclusively an English -speaking edition of the conference,

featuring Stephen Lawson, Vody Baucom, Phil Johnson, Keith Getty, H .B.

Charles, Jr., Tim Challies, Josh Bice, James White, Tom Askell, Anthony Mathenia, Michael

Krueger, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Dennis Thompson, Martha Peace, and

Justin Peters.

If you would like to join me there in Atlanta, Georgia, please go to the G3

Conference website, g3conference .com, g3conference .com.

In case you're wondering, the G3 stands for Grace, Gospel, and Glory.

If you contact any of these organizations, ministries, or churches, to find out why,

or should I say, to find out how to register for these conferences, or just

if you're contacting them for more information, if you please, it would do me a

really huge favor if you were to make sure that you remembered to mention that you heard about those

conferences on Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

And now comes, again, that uncomfortable moment of the daily program that I do

much out of respect for those advertising with me,

who are spending hard -earned money to keep this program on the air, who desire

many future years of broadcasting for Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

These advertisers have asked me to make public appeals for donations and new advertisers.

After years of not making a single public appeal, the times are so desperate and

the need so urgent to keep Iron Trump and Zion Radio on the air that I am making another

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If you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to provide for your family and

provide for your church, then please consider including Iron Trump and Zion Radio in your monthly budget.

You could go to irontrumpandzionradio .com irontrumpandzionradio .com and click on support, and then you'll have an address

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And please, as I always try to remember to say, never ever siphon money out of your

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If you're not a member of a local church, you should rectify that situation very soon because you're living in

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If you're a Christian and you're not living, if you're not a member of a local church, a good bible -believing

local church, you've got to rectify that.

But if you are, and as long as you're not siphoning money out of your giving to them,

and you're not taking food off of your family's dinner table if you're struggling to make ends meet, because those two things are commands of

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Supporting Iron Trump and Zion Radio is not a command of God, but if you are blessed with the ability

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advertising in the subject line because we urgently need donations and advertising

dollars in order to remain on the air.

Well, we're now back to our discussion on God's sovereignty over 9 -11, featuring our

pastors Roundtable, Pastor Ron Glass of Wading River Baptist Church, Pastor Kirk Vonderswag

of Neighborhood Church of Greenwich Village, and Reverend Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host on Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

If you'd like to join us, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail

.com.

Pastor Kirk Vonderswag, if you will now reply to your response to those

who are, they know of a situation that has global

significance perhaps, or it's at least globally known through the news media outlets all over the world,

and you'll have Christians erring on two sides of the coin, or opposite ends

of the spectrum, perhaps is a better term, where you have some who candy coat the issue,

remove God completely out of the scenario, or perhaps those who think that they have the mind of God and act as a

prophet, and will tell you exactly why God brought a certain calamity or

disaster upon a people.

If you could

comment on that.

And I think it does, things happen, we're reminded continually, God is

continually reminding us, in a fallen world,

we are living not in the final state,

stands as the one who, as Romans 11,

from him and through him and to

him are all things to him be, and that he comes

and reminds us of that in such

human beings, on others, and as well as the kind of

natural disasters that we see, clearly, under his sovereignty, these things take place,

and we know that the intent that he has for these things is, and

so these things are designed to awaken

that reality.

You know, one thing that I recall, in the wake of 9 -11, and now, you know,

and when people think of Grenfell, it

was interesting to see, in the

wake of

candles lit,

something make

sense.

I'm

not

going to

be an Osby

who's

going

to

create

an

event

like 9 -11 falls in terms

of...

And Reverend Buzz

Taylor, your thoughts?

Well, I

have the

bane of going.

Third, so all my thunder is stolen, but I'm going to backtrack a little bit.

Well, you also have.

More material to steal as a result of being third.

Yes, but I'm going to agree with both Ron and.

That I'm glad you went to the Luke passage as well, because that's where I was also wanting to go,

and of course, the question asked was, were these greater sinners

than the others, that they died in this untimely way, and Jesus said, no,

that wasn't the reason, but he did say, unless you repent, you shall all likewise perish,

and Pastor Ron, you said that God has warned people many times in advance of things like this happening,

and that was a warning to Israel of something that was about to happen as well, because within 40 years,

the temple was brought down on the worshipers, their blood was mingled with their sacrifices, and they did actually

likewise perish.

Literally likewise.

Literally likewise perished, yes, because they did not repent, and they rejected Jesus as their Messiah,

and I will go so far as to say that that generation was judged for their

rejection of Christ, and I want to go, I want to be heard clearly as saying that that

doesn't apply to all Jews through history now, okay?

They paid for their sin of the rejection of Messiah back in the first century, but

also, we were, one thing that I noticed that came out of 9 -11 was for the

first time in years, I think since I was a young Christian, we had people,

unconverted people, just, you know, our average worldlings actually admitting that there was such a thing

in the world as evil, because we've grown up in a very relativistic society,

and this was, in our face, it's like, no, this, this is really evil.

This should not have happened, and they didn't have answers, and it was nice that we, for a while, while they were remembering, I

think we've forgotten since then, but while we were remembering there was evil, we were able to say, hey, and

here's why, and here's the solution to the evil, so it gave us numerous witnessing opportunities, but

we also see there the depravity of, of man, you know, is man basically good?

No, but unless we repent, we shall all likewise perish, to go back to what Jesus said, and I also

remember, not too many people will remember this, not too many are going to be old enough to remember this,

but we were warned a long time before 9 -11 hit, Ali North told us

to go and take out Osama Bin Laden, because he was an evil man, and

he was going to be trouble, and he was laughed at, and he, well, it was very prophetic

after all.

Yes, and to just to bring up a point that you made again, saying that the Jews

paid for the rejection of Christ at the destruction of the temple, but having said that,

that may be a type of vengeance or wrath that God poured on the

nation at that time, whether you're a Jew or Gentile, there is going to be a far greater reckoning for rejecting

Christ when you perish, whoever you may be, if you perish without

repentance and faith, there'll be a far worse.

Reckoning than the destruction.

They were the only generation who had the opportunity to.

Reject whom they'd seen with their eyes and actually kill him.

Right, and let's see, we have CJ

in Lindenhurst, Long Island, who has a question, and CJ asks,

how do you delicately bring up the afterlife of those who perished in such

horrific events, if you are fairly certain that the person who died, no matter

what kind of situation was that caused the death, was not a believer?

As far as you know, you had never heard them utter a single word that would give you

the indication that they had genuine repentance and faith, and yet you are simultaneously

reaching out to the loved ones of victims, trying to comfort them, and they may ask you, where do you think

that this loved one is now for eternity?

How do you respond to these kinds of very sensitive questions?

And we'll start with you, Pastor Ron.

My response, and I'm

not going to

pull any punches

and lie to them,

God's Word tells us that those who die,

and you say it in a

kind and compassionate way, but you can't solve, and once again

it comes to the point of, and so what

I'll often say, in other

words, if

this person

is in

the hands of God, and therefore this occasion, this

conversation,

you have, Pastor Kirk?

Yeah, I mean, one thing

that I

think wants to be emphasized is that the person who has lost

someone is grieving, and whether

we know that whatever life they had,

because there needs

to be

always

grieving,

and to thank God, as

Ron said,

to

the effect, I would echo

that.

Yes, and

of course,

though, there

is that

reality

that

the

hands of

that.

Merciful and loving God are not merciful to everyone when it comes to the final day of

judgment.

That is when His mercy ceases to be present, as it had been

for so long since the existence of Adam in the common

grace of God.

I know some of our Reformed brethren don't like that term, but the extension of mercy

and patience towards all of humanity, whether they are saved or not, on the day of judgment, that will no longer

exist, and people will be eternally condemned.

How do you even address that issue when it comes to somebody who's mourning?

Well, I

think that

they can understand the

mercy of

God.

When the time comes to

stand before God, it's

going to

be either we're

clueless again what happens

in the last of someone's existence,

or God has shown

him mercy.

Yes, I

think

that one of the

complicating factors we

face here,

I know I

do, and of

course, I'm sure

that you

would

both agree that there is.

A time for total silence, other than, I'm here for you.

If they're weeping, tell them to let it out.

Tell them that they should trust in God now themselves.

You don't necessarily always have to bring up the eternal fate of somebody who has died, I'm assuming you would agree,

and actually direct the focus of the attention not to the hopeless case

of the one already who has perished, but the ones who are living, including the person that you are

giving comfort to.

In many cases, to what

eternal destiny?

And although many people have too

much optimism in.

Regard to deathbed experiences, conversions, deathbed conversions, I should say, they are

real.

I mean, the thief on the cross we have, and especially if you know that you have been bringing the

gospel to a certain person, just because you weren't there to be an eyewitness to their

embracing that gospel, to them falling on their knees and crying out to forgiveness, doesn't

mean it didn't happen.

It could have happened moments before the person died, even though we should

never put our confidence in that ourselves, especially if we are not followers

of Christ.

We should not live like we can always wait till the last moment, because you might not even have a second thought.

You might be killed in an instant without having any opportunity.

But we're going to our final break right now.

It's going to be much briefer, and we'll have Reverend Buzz Taylor give his comments on this when we return.

Now's your final opportunity.

I would send in your email quickly if you have one, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen, and this is the final segment of today's pastor's roundtable featuring Pastor Ron Glass of Wading

River Baptist Church, Pastor Kirk Von Der Swag of the Neighborhood Church of Greenwich Village, New York City, and Reverend Buzz

Taylor, frequent co -host on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Reverend Buzz, it's time for you to respond to the issue of when you are trying to comfort

those who mourn over the death of a loved one and they are bringing up the eternal state of that person when no one

has been an eye or ear witness to that person confessing Christ and knowing of their repentance and faith.

Well, this has been brought home to me on a number of occasions because I used to get a lot of funerals for people in

the community who did not go to church.

The funeral director would call me up to come to a funeral if he had one available.

So I was talking to total strangers, and that can get very interesting at times.

But one of the things that I've noticed is people are always seeking some kind of

hope for the lost loved one.

Now this is of course if there's people in the church that have lost one that they know is apart from Christ or they

strongly suspect it.

They're always seeking for that little glimmer of hope that, well, you know, I witnessed to him last year and he seemed to

be a little bit interested.

Maybe, maybe, you know, if they say maybe and there's a little chance then, you know, my answer then would be,

well, let's hope so.

You know, that's good news.

That's good to hear.

But what we never will do, what I never will do, of course, in any situation we have not the right to do,

is to in any way compromise the gospel of Jesus Christ.

That, you know, he will not make any exception for anybody and we cannot in any way give the

impression that he will.

So I really do like the answers that we've already heard.

That person is in God's hands.

God could have somehow communicated with this person.

We just don't know and we will find out.

But what we're interested in right now is, you know, are those who remain, the people who

have the opportunity to respond to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Now that's about, that's what I would say, you know, at funerals and in the immediate situation.

But we all know loved ones, whether it's grandparents, aunts and

uncles, a lot of people.

Every one of us knows people that we've loved that have gone into eternity without

Christ.

And we'll be wondering, you know, how am I going to enjoy eternity knowing that they are not there?

I heard it put this way once that I think says it pretty well, and this sort of came up earlier in our conversation.

We have to understand that when a person enters into eternity at

death, any semblance of common grace has been removed from that

person.

We are remembering and enjoying the good memories we have of them.

They were good people, sociable and whatnot, you know, all the wonderful memories we have of them.

But those things are overshadowed by the fact that in their eternal state,

all the common grace of this life has been removed and they are living in an eternal state of blasphemy against God, of

hatred towards for what has become of their condition and so forth.

So we can remember with beauty those

memories of how they affected us in life.

But I don't think it's going to bother us for eternity that they're not there because God ultimately knows that they are

where they belong.

And we have Christopher from Suffolk

County, Long Island, New York, who says, I know that

all of the ministers involved in today's program are Calvinists.

I was wondering how you approach the subject of God in his sovereignty using

wicked men to bring about those things that he has ordained.

And at the same time, separating the fact that those wicked people that God has used are

indeed responsible at the same time.

And unless they repent, they will spend eternity in hell.

And Pastor Ron, if you could start.

God,

long parade

of

profit, and

therefore

he used

it.

Yes, God

uses.

And Pastor Kirk Von Der Slog.

Well, I think as well of

an implant for knowledge of God, you crucified and killed him by the hands of lawless

men behind the things

that

he does

again to

somehow God.

Yes, some people outside of reform theology make the mistake.

In fact, I had a Roman Catholic during a radio debate that I just had

last week with a Roman Catholic.

I did not know beforehand it was going to be a debate.

I thought we were just giving our testimonies, me giving my testimony of conversion out of Roman Catholicism

into biblical Protestantism, him giving his testimony from conversion out of

Protestantism into Roman Catholicism.

This was on the unbelievable show in the United Kingdom, who contacted me to participate in this, but the

Roman Catholic participant, he brought up as a great wickedness, the

doctrine of double predestination.

And then he went on to wrongly define that.

And he seemed to be under the opinion that God would be casting into

hell people who didn't have their election lottery ticket, no matter

what they did in their lives.

In other words, in his mind, you could have millions of repentant people who love

Jesus and follow him who are going to hell because they didn't have an election lottery ticket.

But the only time that God supernaturally intervenes into the hearts of men is when he

saves us.

He doesn't have to supernaturally import

wickedness into our hearts.

We are all made out of the same clay, as Romans 9

tells us, but he supernaturally rescues some of us, his elect, out of that

and gives us new hearts that we may repent and believe.

Am I right on that?

That's it.

I mean, our...

And Reverend Buzz

Taylor

has something to

say.

Yes, it's my turn.

And I have to take it before anybody steals my thunder again, you understand.

So thank you, Ron.

It's all about you, isn't it?

I want to thank Ron and Kurt for not stealing my thunder this time, because you didn't go any direction that I'm going to go with this.

But I do like the directions you did go to, so don't get me wrong on that.

But I think we have the classic example there, too, of Joseph's brothers.

Joseph said to them when he was reunited with them, you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good to save life.

You wanted to take life, but God meant to save life.

And we have God using evil men and their evil intentions, but for his purpose, to preserve his

people.

And all I can say for the non -reformed people that are listening, struggle a little bit through

Romans 9, because there's some pretty difficult stuff in there.

In fact, that was the chapter that put me solidly in the reformed

camp, was that I couldn't answer some of these questions.

But really, God raised up Pharaoh for the purpose of

displaying his glory in him.

And you read that whole story of Pharaoh, and God said on numerous occasions to Abraham

and Moses, he promised that they were going to come out of Egypt with a mighty hand.

So when Moses goes before Pharaoh and says, let my people go, it wouldn't have been a mighty hand if

Pharaoh said, okay, blessings to you, bon voyage.

But Moses was told even before he went to him, he's not going to listen to you.

I have hardened his heart so that he won't, because I'm going to show my power in him.

And that's exactly what happened.

And he says he will harden whom he will harden, he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.

And you know, he endures with patience, vessels of wrath that he may show his glory to the vessels

of life of mercy.

It's so Romans 9, I think really plays big on the answer to that question, that God does

use evil people to accomplish his purposes quite often.

And we have for a final question of the day, Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, he said,

don't we have to warn people about the danger of inventing false

gods according to their own imaginations, where they may flee for peace and comfort during times like this.

I think Pastor Kirk was speaking earlier about something similar about altars being erected in Greenwich Village.

Although this may in some way move us at the same time, isn't this a danger where people

salve their consciences through gods of their own invention?

And I'll start with you, Pastor Ron.

Glass.

Well, yes, I guess it can be.

And that's why in times like this, we have

to use that to preach the gospel.

Yeah, the good news isn't really good news unless we hear the bad news, is it?

Well, that's right.

And, you know, that actually happens is a good opportunity to

remind people of the depravity of man.

Again, Jesus

and Bin Laden, I'm sorry, we're all hell -bound

sinners.

One thing that just a question that I don't know the answer

to.

But I guess I'd like to know how many people actually came to Christ

as a result of 9 -11.

Has more of a handle

on that?

Pastor Kirk?

Well, I can't say that I can give numbers.

All I can give is personal experiences that there were two people who were a small

congregation to begin with, so percentage -wise, it

was

pretty

good.

And Reverend Buzz Taylor,

your

thoughts?

I can't say

that I know

anybody.

That directly came to Christ through 9 -11.

Okay, well, I want to make sure that before we run out of time, our listeners have all the contact, the

information that they need.

WRBC .us is the Waiting River Baptist Church in Waiting River, Long Island, New York.

That's WRBC .us.

And if you would like to call them,

their phone

number is 631 -929 -3512.

631 -929 -3512.

And then we have the Neighborhood Church of Greenwich

Village, New York.

Their website is NCGVNYC.

That's NC Neighborhood Church, GV Greenwich Village,

NYC.

Neighborhood Church of Greenwich Village in New York City, NCGNYC.

And that is .com.

Their phone number

is 212 -691 -1770.

212 -691 -1770.

Pastor Ron Glass, going back to you, do you have any further contact information that you care to.

Give?

We've got contact information, but we invite our listeners to listen online to our program.

Yes, that's on WEGB Radio, and that is a part of

the Eastgate Broadcasting Network there in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York.

And if you Google WEGB Radio, you will get

the website to that.

I don't know if you have that in front of you, Pastor Ron, but that's Eastgate

Broadcasting, W -E -G -B.

And our listeners can get a hold of all the information that

you need to listen to the River of Life radio broadcast.

And it just so happens that both the Reverend Buzz Taylor and myself, we

edit that program every day to make it ready for broadcasting.

And what time is he on,.

Saturday and Sunday?

At 9 .30.

Great.

And Pastor Kirk Vonderswag, any other details that you want to give as far as contacting you and the Neighborhood Church

of Greenwich Village?

Well, if I might plug one event that's coming up this Friday.

If you're close by at 7 p .m., there's an offer that's

challenging us to employ the

internet.

And other than

that, you can contact us through our

website.

It'll be a good portal for people.

Why don't you repeat that website one more time?

N -C -G -V -N -Y -C.

Great.

Well, it has been such an honor to have both of you on the program.

Pastor Ron Glass, I know that I could never repay you and your congregation for the

blessing that you've been to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And I just thank God for you.

And I know that we would not exist likely if it were not for your support.

And Pastor Kirk Vonderswag, it's so great to rekindle an old acquaintance.

And I hope that our friendship grows stronger in the days, weeks, months, and

years ahead.

And we look forward to your return.

In fact, if you could both hold on, I'd like to reschedule the two of you for your own interviews in the near future, if you

want to hold on when we go off the air.

And I thank you, Reverend Buzz Taylor, for being my co -host.

Once again, I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who wrote in questions today.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a

sinner.