September 11, 2017 Show with Pastors Ron Glass & Kirk Van Der Swaagh with “The Pastors’ Roundtable: God’s Sovereignty over 9/11”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 11th day of September 2017.

And today, because of the fact that we are once again commemorating the worst terrorist attack on American soil from a foreign enemy in United States history on September 11th, 2001, we are having the first Pastors Roundtable on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio since we left

New York and relocated here to Pennsylvania. This is a feature of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio that was very popular when we were broadcasting out of WNYG and WGBB radio in New York, and I intend to perhaps have it as either a weekly or monthly feature.

I haven't decided yet, but this will be the first of, God willing,

I hope, many Pastors Roundtables to come, and I want to thank our guests for being willing to accept the invitation to participate in this

Pastors Roundtable at very late notice. I was intending to actually run a rerun today of last year's

September 11th Iron Sharpens Iron program featuring David Karnes. Some of you may remember

Staff Sergeant David Karnes, who was one of the heroes involved, in fact the primary hero, who was involved in rescuing some transit police officers who were trapped beneath the rubble of one of the

Twin Towers that collapsed on 9 -11. David Karnes is a born -again believer and I had him on the program last year.

In fact, if any of you saw the movie Twin Towers with Dennis Cage, I believe that's his name, if anybody of you saw that movie,

Staff Sergeant David Karnes had a very primary role in that film, not the actual

David Karnes, the character of David Karnes was a primary role in that film.

And so today we are going to do a Pastors Roundtable program addressing that very same issue, in fact with more of a theological bent to it.

This year our September 11th broadcast is on the theme

God's Sovereignty over 9 -11, and we have featured on our panel today

Pastor Ron Glass of Wading River Baptist Church of Wading River, Long Island, New York, Pastor Kirk Vanderswag of Neighborhood Church of Greenwich Village, New York City, and the

Reverend Buzz Taylor, who you've all heard as our regular co -host on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Today he is going to be more of a co -guest, if you will, or a panel member on the

Pastors Roundtable. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question regarding this very important topic, a very controversial topic, and a very misunderstood topic, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com, and please as always give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the

USA. If it makes you feel more comfortable, you may remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter, and obviously a subject like this could lend itself to someone wanting to ask a personal and private matter, especially if your life was dramatically affected because of 9 -11, especially in 2001.

But other than that, other than a personal and private matter, please at least give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence.

By the way, I do have to quickly give a thanks to you in the audience who have answered the

S .O .S., if you will, or responded to the S .O .S. that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio has been giving out daily due to our urgent need for new donations and benefactors and advertisers.

Well, the checks have been slowly but surely coming in again, and I thank

God for you taking heed to those public appeals for donations.

And we've got donations coming in from listeners that I have never heard from before, who have never donated to my knowledge before, nor have they even sent in emails with questions for our guests before.

So these are new people to me, one from Shirts, Texas, one from Portersville, California, and thank you for sending in those much, those greatly needed checks.

And I thank all of the other listeners in our audience, not only who have been praying for Iron Sharpens Iron to receive the needed funds required to keep this program on the air, but also those who actually sent in checks yourself.

And I have received a number of emails from a number of you who have told me that you are sending in checks, and I thank

God for you. So before we go into the topic, let me introduce our panelists today.

First, we have one of my dearest friends on the planet Earth and his congregation,

Wading River Baptist Church, you hear regularly advertised on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Without the generosity of Wading River Baptist Church and Wading River Long Island, New York, Iron Sharpens Iron Radio would likely not even exist.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Ron Glass of Wading River Baptist Church.

It's a privilege and honor, as always, to have you as a part of the broadcast. And also an old friend of mine who

I haven't spoken with in quite a while, and it's great to have you for the first time,

I believe, ever on my program, unless I'm forgetting a program when we were in New York that you were on.

But Pastor Kirk Vanderswag is the pastor of Neighborhood Church of Greenwich Village, New York City.

And Neighborhood Church is a member of the Four Seas denomination, and it's an honor and privilege to have you on the program,

Pastor Kirk Vanderswag. Well, thank you, Chris. No, I don't think I've been on a previous program.

I think we've tried to connect a couple of times, but hasn't happened yet. But thank you for the invitation today. Oh, it's my pleasure to have you on the program.

And in fact, I've wanted to have you on for quite a while, as you know, and providentially things didn't work out until now, but I'm glad that you are with us.

Pastor Ron Glass, we'll start with you in getting a little bit of a description of Wading River Baptist Church, of Wading River, Long Island, New York, for those of our listeners who haven't heard you on previous programs.

Well, we're a Baptist Church affiliated with the Conservative Baptist Association of America.

We're located in Wading River, which is about two -thirds of the way out on Long Island, and we're on the

North Shore, and that's directly south of New Haven, Connecticut, across the

Long Island Sound. We are a

Bible -preaching church, majoring in the systematic exposition of the

Word of God, and maintaining what we believe is a reverent and conservative traditional style of worship, which is, as I understand from other people, increasingly rare today.

Yes, it does seem to be a more of a rare thing, and believe it or not,

Pastor Ron, I don't know if you, I don't remember if you brought this up on your interview on the

Millennials, and why many of the Millennials are rejecting church attendance in the

Gospel. I was at a conference not long ago, where one of the speakers who has done a lot of research on the

Millennials, who has a campus ministry, he was directing a campus ministry in Princeton, Princeton University in New Jersey.

I don't know if he's still operating that right now, but he said something quite fascinating during the conference.

He said that Millennials, because they tend to be very skeptical of being conned by slick salesmen and all that kind of thing, he was telling me that quite a number of Millennials are actually longing for the traditional worship, such as the kind of worship you offer at Wading River Baptist Church, because they want, if they are being drawn by God and they are looking for a church, if they are looking for a place to worship and a place to discover and learn about God, if that is a part of what they are searching for due to God's drawing, they tend to want something that is not reflective of their everyday social life and common activity in their day -to -day lives.

They are looking for something that is more uniquely reflective of worship and of faith and so on, that stands out from the rest of their just common activities.

Have you found this to be true? Have you heard of this? Pastor Ron?

Pastor Kirk Vonderswag, are you there? I am here. Oh, somehow we lost Pastor Ron.

Well, hopefully Pastor Ron will be joining us back. Pastor Ron, are you there? I am.

For some reason, the communication dropped out here. I don't know what happened. Oh, well, I'm glad you called back.

Well, to make what I said brief, I have heard that many Millennials are searching for just the kind of church that Waiting River Baptist Church is, because of the fact that something that would be against our gut feeling, something that would militate against what we might naturally think,

Millennials are very often looking for traditional worship. If God is drawing them and they are seeking for truth about God and to worship biblically, they don't want something that just merely parrots or reflects common use.

The concerts they go to in their social life and so on, they don't want the worship to reflect that.

Have you heard about this phenomenon or discovered it yourself? Well, yes, and I would simply say that, you know, our church is here for those who are looking for that more conservative style of worship.

And I would also say, Chris, you and I have talked about this. One of these days,

I'd like to come back on your program. I think we need to talk about what some of these

Millennials are doing, which is they are returning to liturgical churches, the Roman Catholic Church, the

Anglican Church, and Eastern Orthodoxy, and that's part of the reason why.

But that's a subject for another day. Yeah, well, after the show's over,

I'd like to take out my calendar and get you scheduled very soon. Pastor Kirk Vonderswag, tell us about Neighborhood Church of Greenwich Village in New York City, and also about the

Four Seas denomination of which you are a part. Yeah, well, our church is located right in the heart of Greenwich Village.

We're right on Bleecker Street, kind of the main street that runs through Greenwich Village, and we're a storefront church.

We're not a traditional church building, and we started back in 73 as a kind of mission church, to then what was a still kind of a hippie, beatnik neighborhood.

It's not really so much that now. It's become a very, very wealthy and just a well -heeled neighborhood.

But the Lord has sustained us in 73, and we were an independent church when it started, but back in the early 90s,

I encouraged our church to become affiliated, and I had some close relationships with colleagues who were in the

Four Seas. And when we did some research and looked around, we felt like, historically, we fit within the congregational model, which, like our brother in the

Baptist Church, believes in the autonomy of the local church, and Christ is the direct head over each local church with full ecclesiastical authority.

And so we joined up with the Four Seas then, back in 91,

I think it was, or 92. And the Four Seas is a... it kind of really majors on...

I would say that, and this doesn't sound... it's not a confessional body, but even though we have the

Savoy Declaration, which is the congregational tweaking of the Westminster Confession, at the hands of people like Owen and so on, and the

Cambridge Platform, which was a wonderful document generated by the Congregational Churches, Puritan Churches here in New England, about church polity, a really wonderful document.

Those things exist. The Four Seas acknowledges those and are grateful for them, but it's not a confessional body.

And so what it really is, it comes down to really that local autonomy and a belief in really sort of basic Orthodox Christian faith.

And so you can have a kind of a broad range of people, and they're not explicitly Reformed, but there is a strong Reformed presence within the

Four Seas, and in fact I'm a co -moderator of a group called the Reformed Congregational Fellowship, which is mostly made up of Four Seas pastors and or churches, a separate entity.

It's not a denomination or even an association, just a collegial group, and we have a wonderful pastors conference that happens every year.

So it's unity with diversity. That was a term that I think was maybe even

Owen coined, the idea that when he was trying to argue with the Presbyterians back in the day, he said, you know, we believe in so much together, we can have unity even though we might disagree on something like polity.

And so that has become a kind of, I guess, a motto almost that allows for a broad range of churches and some distinctives on what maybe some might call secondary matters.

So we're comfortable there. It's good to be associated. In all honesty,

I'd love to see it be more confessional, more Reformed, but we're grateful for our association with the group.

Good group of people. Love the Lord. I'm going to test my memory. I'm sorry, was somebody saying something?

I'm sorry. I was actually going to say that because I wanted to test my memory.

Is it Conservative Christian Congregational Congress? It's Conservative Congregational Christian Conference.

And if you want to know how that came about, I can give that very briefly. It was, these churches were part of a much larger group called the

General Conference of Congregational Christian Churches, and that was a melding together of congregational churches as well as some of the

Christian churches that were on the frontier. Again, I guess some of which came out became like the

Campbellite churches, you know, some of them became Disciples of Christ, others became so -and -so, but these were more theologically aligned with the churches that were part of Congregational tradition.

But the Four C's became an entity when there was a great liberal trend that was happening within the churches.

They were a group within the General Conference. They became their own entity back in 49.

So Congregational reflects that congregational history, the Christian reflects that other Christian history, and then later there was another merger that took place, not with us, but with the other group, and what eventually became the

UCC, the United Church of Christ. So this is a conservative element that left that group prior to it moving to the

UCC. Great, and I'm going to repeat our email address.

It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question.

And in studio with me is the Reverend Buzz Taylor, who normally is a co -host when he's on the program, but today he's going to be one of our panelists.

Why don't you tell, I know that you're not pastoring right now, Reverend Buzz Taylor, but you have pastored several churches at least.

Why don't you tell us something about your background as a pastor? I started as an assistant pastor in an independent

Baptist Church after graduating from Bob Jones University, and then my first senior pastor, it was in suburb, way out, about 45 miles outside of Buffalo, in a little town called

Sandusky, and if you go 10 miles away from Sandusky and say you're from Sandusky, they say

Ohio. So anyway, those of you who live there understand that.

But then I pastored a church in the Churches of God, Finley, Ohio. The church was actually in Pennsylvania, Auburn, Pennsylvania.

And then my last pastor was when I was still living up in Maine. I was unfortunately trucking at the same time because it was not a self -supporting church, and when my company sent me over the road,

I had to stop pastoring, but I was pastoring a Reformed Presbyterian Church in Fayette, Maine.

And then that brought me down here, and I've been attending a PCA church since I've been here. Great. Well, I'd like to start off the program with having each of you give a summary of where you were when you heard about that horrific attack on the

World Trade Center and the Pentagon Building, and of course there was also a plane that was forced down by the passengers who heroically basically attacked the terrorists in order to prevent them from bringing about further harm in a terrorist attack, and they basically gave their lives in bringing that plane down here in Pennsylvania.

But let's start with you, Pastor Glass. What were the circumstances surrounding your first hearing about a

September 11th attack in 2001? Well, it's interesting because I was actually in my car headed towards a meeting of the conservative pastors here in Suffolk County, New York.

I remember it was about a quarter till nine, and I turned the car radio on, and I heard that there had been an apparent accident of a plane colliding with one of the towers.

And as I was listening, about a minute or so after I turned it on, I heard the account of the second plane going into, well it was a couple minutes later, the second plane going into the building.

Then it was quite obvious that this was an attack. That, of course, became the subject of interest of our pastor's meeting that day.

And while we were trying to do business, I remember the host pastor coming, he left and came back from his office to the room we were meeting about 1030 and said the towers were falling down.

It was shocking, and well, the rest is history. Now I know that you are some distance from New York City, being in the, towards the eastern end of Suffolk County, although there's a lot more east of you on Long Island.

Quite a ride all the way out to the end of Long Island, heading east, if you were to leave your church parking lot, so you're not exactly on the eastern end as far...

I'm sorry? We're about 80 miles from Manhattan. Okay, well, yeah, that is one of the reasons

I was wondering if you had anybody in your congregation affected by that attack.

I know it's a far distance, but there are still people I know that commute to New York City from a lot of places on Long Island.

We had one of our men in the church who worked, he didn't work in the

World Trade Center, but the office he worked in, he had to get off of the subway at the

World Trade Center subway station, and he mentioned that he had just come up out of the subway at the point where the,

I believe the second plane, or maybe it was actually the first plane, that went into the building, and obviously they had to evacuate out of there, but he was there when it happened.

I think the most striking thing for me was a girl in our church, she was a college -age girl,

I actually think she had recently graduated. Anyway, she was a daughter of one of our elders in the church, and I wasn't entirely sure where she was spiritually, but she was engaged to marry a guy that we were pretty sure was not a believer, although his future father -in -law was trying to tell me he was, but I saw no evidence of that.

I asked for the couple to go out to lunch with me after church one day, on Lord's Day, and so we did.

We went out and I talked some spiritual things, tried to confront him with the claims of Christ, and I never did get a very clear answer from him where he stood, but the plans were that she was going to go ahead and get married.

One of the reasons I was meeting with him was because I had to decide whether I was going to participate in the ceremony or not, because I won't marry a couple where there's an unequal yoke involved.

So I talked to him, and it was only about two weeks later that he was working.

His company was located on the 104th floor of the second tower, the

We had a very anxious period of time for the next couple of days.

The family, the fiancee and the family went into the city. They put up posters.

They walked all over the place. They were even interviewed on ABC morning program as they sought desperately to see what might have happened to him.

They located somebody with his name. Turned out it was somebody else with the same name who had survived, and of course they never found his body.

Years later, years later, they found a part of a hand in the city dump that had a ring on that they identified.

So he had died in the attack. Wow, and I want to let our listeners know that I had no clue about this story before the program.

This was quite a providential thing for me to ask you because you never, to my knowledge, informed me of that story.

Quite sad. Kirk Wonderswag, you were, I am pretty certain, you were pastoring even back then in New York City, right in Greenwich Village there.

What can you say about when you first heard about the 9 -11 attack and if there are any members of your congregation who were either perished or somehow negatively or dramatically affected by that?

Well, Chris, I mean, I literally heard it. That is, my apartment faces south, just a mile north of Ground Zero, and the

World Trade Center was part of our view for all the years that we've lived here. And I was working with one of my sons in his bedroom, and we heard this rather large rumble sound.

I thought it was somebody offloading a 40 -yard dumpster onto the street. And he was a young boy and went over the window and said,

Pop, look, there's a, you know, like a hole or a fire at the

World Trade Center. So I didn't believe him. I got up and looked, and sure enough, there's this big black hole in the tower.

And I thought maybe a mechanical floor had exploded or something like that, you know, and midway up the building.

And my family was getting ready to drive out for their first day of a homeschool co -op that we were going to be part of, and another one of my sons was waiting for his friend and mom down on the front stoop.

And they were looking at this, this black hole, when they saw the other plane approach and slam into the next building.

So then the mom that was there by then was rather hysterical, and we were planning, well, we'll just, you know, we don't know what to do about that.

We're going to head on, they'll just head on out to the New Jersey where it was going to be, the co -op, and then by then the bridges were closed and everything.

So we watched it all unfold right in front of our eyes. The buildings collapsed, and our church building is located just off of Sixth Avenue.

And there was just a stream of people coming off of Sixth Avenue where I could see in my apartment, there's a stream of people coming up along the

Hudson River. And we opened up the doors to our church for people who wanted to stop in, and some did.

And my most vivid memory was one fellow who came in, and he was just covered with dust and was speechless.

He couldn't talk. And so we had it open, and we prayed for people, and there's some that came in.

But then our neighborhood, we were evacuated. They were concerned for leaks, the gas leaks and things such as that.

So our particular building complex that I live in, we had to move, and so a couple of our elderly neighbors came over and hung out in our church for a while, and until they kind of gave you all clear on that.

But we witnessed it, and we lived it, and you know, they smelled it every night when the wind shifted.

And one other thing just to add, I had a colleague, an old friend and a colleague from Washington, D .C.

area who works as a missionary there, really Capitol Hill, came up and visited me on the Sunday after that Tuesday.

And we went down together to see if we could help out, you know, in chaplaincy kind of work.

And it was just very busy, and they had a center for it, but really, you know, the main guy was heading in there, and we were told, well, he's not here right now.

And so we decided, okay, well, we'll walk out, and lo and behold, we found the door that led us right into the cordoned off area and walked over from One Police Plaza to the site.

And, you know, Chris, the most striking thing about it, when

I was a young man, I had graduated from college, I had done a kind of cross -country trip as a way to sort of, and when

I got to the Grand Canyon, I remember I got there just at dusk, and I looked over the edge, and I was like stunned, right?

It was just kind of incomprehensible. I couldn't take it in. It was one of those sort of awe -inspiring moments.

And, you know, when I saw the World Trade Center that day on that Sunday, it wasn't because the hole was so deep.

It was the incomprehensibility of what I was looking at that struck me with the same physical response.

It was just this pile of kind of brown -gray rubble. And we had a chance, this brother and I, to speak with a fire department team that had come from Orange County, California, and we prayed with them and spoke with them for a while, but it was really, really quite something.

And, yeah, I mean, there's more I could talk about the neighborhood and things, but on that day, it was very present and real as we watched it unfold.

Okay, when I return from the break, I'll ask Reverend Buzz Taylor the same question. And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question or perhaps even just a comment, something that you want to share about your own experience about September 11, 2001, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name as always, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. Don't go away. God willing, we'll be right back after these messages with the Pastors Roundtable on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God?

Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church. We are a Reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the

London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts. We strive to reflect

Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostle's priority, it must not be ours either.

We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750. That's 508 -528 -5750.

Or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our TV program entitled,

Resting in Grace. You can find us at providencebaptistchurchma .org, that's providencebaptistchurchma .org,

or even on sermonaudio .com. Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the Pastor's Study every

Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio.

www .wlie540am .com.

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the Pastor's Study by calling in with your questions.

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon

Eastern Time for A Visit to the Pastor's Study, because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnson. If you just tuned in to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, today we are having our very first Pastor's Roundtable since we relocated from New York to Pennsylvania.

And we're reviving an old tradition that seemed to be very popular in our days of broadcasting out of New York.

And our featured panel members on our Pastor's Roundtable today are Pastor Ron Glass of Wading River Baptist Church of Wading River, New York, Pastor Kirk Vonderswag of Neighborhood Church of Greenwich Village, and Reverend Buzz Taylor, who is retired from the ministry and the frequent co -host on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Our theme is God's Sovereignty over 9 -11. And I just recalled after hearing that commercial from Pastor Bill Shishko, that's where I first came into contact with you,

Pastor Vonderswag, way back in the early 1990s, when Pastor Bill used to have his annual minister's fellowship.

And Bill used to invite me to those even though I was never a pastor because of my work in Christian radio.

And he always wanted me to be there to be able to direct pastors to promote their congregations where they were serving as pastor in order to give a wider audience to those pastors.

And Pastor Bill has radio in his blood, and he believes that it's a very powerful medium, which it is.

And so that's why he invited me every year. And I recall that's where our friendship began.

And I'm glad to have you finally on the program. We Oh, yeah, we're going to Reverend Buzz Taylor's own experiences on what when he first heard where he was and how he first heard of the dreaded attack on American soil here that on September 11, 2001.

Well, I was a yard jockey at a plant at the time up in Auburn, Maine.

And I was listening to the radio. And I heard the news that a plane had hit the

World Trade Center. And I didn't know if it was a Piper Cub or what, you know, and I thought, well, what's the matter? Was the pilot blind or what?

You know, how did he not see that? And I went in and you know, told some folks in the office there,

I said, Hey, a plane just ran into the World Trade Center. Everybody's like, Oh, that's interesting.

And I went out to the truck. And then I heard about the second plane. It's like, Oh, boy, this is this is more than I thought it was.

And I went back in and told them another plane has just struck the Trade Center. And of course, at that point, all work stopped and all the radios came on.

And so I listened to it for the rest of the day. And I wasn't able to laugh to work to actually get home and see on TV what was going on.

It was just I couldn't believe my eyes when I was watching, you know, that had happened on on our soil.

But I was far enough away to where I didn't know anybody involved with, of course, you know, being up in Maine.

So nobody in my congregations was was there or anything like that. But still, it was just as traumatic, you know, to hear that kind of news.

And things were kind of quiet at home after that. I remember where I was,

I was in my, my office in my home. And that day,

I was supposed to be at a sales meeting in New Jersey.

I'm trying to remember if WMCA radio where I worked was in Rutherford at that time, or in Hasbro Heights, because it moved while I was working there over the 15 year period that I was there, it moved from Rutherford to Hasbro Heights.

And I think we were possibly in our new Hasbro Heights location.

But I was supposed to be in New Jersey. That day, because every, every week we had a sales meeting there.

And that was one of the sales meeting days. And providentially, I got a call from my sales manager the night before he said that the meeting is canceled, stay home.

So I was home and was sitting at my computer. And all of a sudden,

I started to get emails, one after another from a very good friend of mine,

Pastor Ed Moore of North Shore Baptist Church in Bayside, Queens, who was,

I was hoping to have also included on the panel today, but he's at a conference in New Jersey right now.

But I was getting these emails from him. And then I decided to look more closely at the subject line.

And they all said, pray for families in our church who are in the

Twin Towers. Like, why on earth is he asking me to pray about that? And then I opened up one of the emails.

And he basically was saying, I'm sure that most of you know by now that the Twin Towers are on fire due to a plane crash in one of the towers.

And it is uncertain if it's a terrorist attack yet. We have family members who are working in those

Twin Towers who are members of our church, please pray that they escape safely. So then

I said, well, I got to turn on the news. And I grabbed the remote control, clicked on the TV set.

And I was staring at the film of the

Twin Towers on fire. But at the bottom of the screen, it said the Twin Towers have fallen.

And I was like, puzzled there. I was like, how could they be falling? I'm looking at them right now on fire. But obviously, they were showing footage from earlier that morning.

And that's how that all began, how I discovered what had happened on that horrific day.

And then I later found out that a family that moved from the church where I was a member,

Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York, I had heard that a family who had moved to Pennsylvania, that the plane had crashed in Pennsylvania, the one that the passengers heroically took down by attacking the terrorists.

That plane had crashed very, very reasonably close to where that family lived in Pennsylvania.

I believe it was just a small strip of woods separating their neighborhood from the crash site.

So that was quite an interesting thing that occurred there in Pennsylvania with the former members of our church.

But one of the things I'd like to start with you, Pastor Ron, there is a temptation, well -meaning temptation for people, especially

Christians and even more so men in the ministry, they want to reach out with comfort and peace, and they want to lift the spirits, perhaps say something inspiring to people during calamities such as this, whether they are natural disasters like what was going on in Florida just over the weekend here, and people still dealing with the aftermath of that, or something like 9 -11 where you have actually evil human beings participating in the horrific event.

You have the tendency of people in the ministry, well -meaning, and it's likely, largely, predominantly due to the fact that these ministers and Christians are ill -informed in regard to what the scriptures say in regard to God's sovereignty.

But they will typically, especially the more famous ones like Billy Graham and others, when they are given the opportunity to say something on television, they will say words that really remove

God completely out of the situation. They will be hearing that, you know,

I can even recall while working for WMCA that there were some ministers who were invited to record one -minute messages of biblical encouragement after 9 -11, and some of them were saying things that I believe were totally antithetical to what the scriptures teach on God's sovereignty.

Some of these men, even conservative fundamentalists, Baptists, and so on, were saying God had nothing to do with 9 -11.

How do you respond to that kind of attempt to remove God from situations like this?

You know, and some of it is because they want to defend His character, defend God's character, and the fact that He is an all -loving

God. They don't want to say anything that they believe is going to besmirch the character of God, so they go overboard and actually wind up saying things that are untrue, in my opinion.

How do you respond to that, Pastor Glass, first of all? Well, my experience, especially with 9 -11, was actually the other direction, and that is those who immediately jumped on this as God's judgment on America.

There was, for example, an interchange between Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell on the 700

Club right afterwards. Pat Robertson's brother,

Jerry Falwell, said this. He said, What we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be minuscule if, in fact,

God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve.

Pat Robertson responded and said, Jerry, that's my feeling. I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror.

We haven't even begun to see what they can do to the major population. And then Falwell said this.

This is what got people so upset. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked, and when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make

God mad. I really believe that the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians are trying to make an alternative lifestyle.

The ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who've tried to secularize America, I point the finger in their face and say, you helped this happen.

To which Pat Robertson said, Well, I totally concur. And the problem is we've adopted the agenda at the highest levels of government.

And so he ended up by saying, quote, God Almighty is lifting his protection from us.

Now, there was a lot of reaction against Falwell and Robertson for that. Actually, Falwell backtracked a little bit later on and said that several conservative theologians and evangelists responded and were interviewed.

They said that they agreed with the basic notion, but rejected the idea that mere humans can ever know which particular sin leads to which particular tragedy.

So what I think the seminal biblical passage on this, and I'm glad you brought up the hurricanes, because I think this fits into the pattern as well, is in Luke chapter 13.

On the same occasion, verse 1, there were some present who reported to Jesus about the

Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifice. Jesus said to them,

Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate?

I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or do you suppose that these 18 upon whom the tower of Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem?

I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. And then he began telling this parable.

A man had a fig tree, which had been planted in his vineyard, and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.

And he said to the vineyard keepers, Behold, for three years I've come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any.

He cut it down. Why does it even use up the ground? And he answered and said, Let it alone, sir, for this year, too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer.

And if it bears fruit next year, fine, but if not, cut it down. Now, what this passage tells us is that there have been terrorist acts.

And really the situation that Jesus mentions in verse 1, where the

Galileans were attacked by the Pontius Pilate. Apparently what happened,

Pontius Pilate, who was notoriously hard -hearted, had his soldiers attack a group of Jews from Galilee as they were offering their sacrifices in the temple at Passover.

That's the reference to the mixing of blood, the animal blood with the human blood. It was an arbitrary act of bloody violence meant to strike fear into the entire

Jewish nation. It was an act of terrorism. Terrorism is nothing new.

Then the second thing he talks about is this tower that fell. It may have been a part of the aqueduct that Pilate had built to improve the water supply to Jerusalem.

It might have been a military structure. We don't know for sure. But this tower collapsed and killed 18 people, innocent people.

And I think this we can put into the category of a tragic accident or even a natural disaster.

So Jesus points to both, acts of terrorism and natural disasters.

And he said, do you suppose that these things happen because those who suffered were greater sinners than others?

And he says the same thing to both incidents. I tell you, unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

And I think that's the great lesson of 9 -11. It's the great lesson of the hurricanes that we have just experienced.

The lesson is not that the people who perished were more evil than the rest, but rather it's a lesson from God, who is indeed sovereign.

But unless we repent, we will all likewise perish. Before I move on to Pastor Vonderslag, would you say though, in spite of perhaps some of the reckless way that Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson responded to this situation, and I'm no fan of Pat Robertson, I have to be completely honest,

I think in many ways he embarrasses the body of Christ with some of the very heretical things he participates in on his program.

And people get the idea that that's what genuine Christianity is. But he has a much smaller audience today.

But I happened to, when hearing those things, even if they were mishandled by those two men, there is a candy coating by many conservative

Christians over the sins of America. They may be very pro -life. They may be very adamantly and aggressively and publicly opposed to Democrats and liberals and so on.

But when it comes to the pride of our nation and turning the correct respect of God, country, or should

I say of the country and the American flag and all that, there's

I think a dangerous level of idolatry towards this country where great sins like the infanticide going on here through abortion, like the legalization of same -sex marriage, which obviously was not in existence during the

September 11th attack of 2001, but it is something that's just come about through the progressive deterioration of our culture.

Aren't these things that American citizens, and especially Christians, who need to say,

America, we must repent. And these things that may be coming into our country to wreak havoc amongst us and the calamity and the horror that we see and what we've seen in 9 -11, but which may come about even in greater measure in the future.

Isn't there a biblical precedent with the nation of Israel, for instance, of things like this happening? Well, absolutely.

The thing about it is that the Old Testament passages where God brought destruction on a major scale, the flood,

Sodom and Gomorrah, the Canaanites, Israel and Judah, Nineveh, Babylon, all of these have one common thread that extends through them, and that is that the

Lord foretold the destruction of every one of these evil societies, and he gave them time to repent.

He sent preachers and prophets to them and gave them time to repent. The difference is that in this age, since the end of the age of the law and the beginning of this age of grace, that's not the case.

And the reality is, of course, that God is sovereign over the affairs of the nations, and every time these things happen,

I think it is well advised for us to pause a moment, especially those of us who are aware of how

God has worked through scripture and biblical history, as well as in the history of the church, to revive his church and to take this as an opportunity to pray for the awakening of our church, the church in America.

We should always be praying for that, but it's a reminder that God hates sin. And, you know, there's a verse which really struck me the last time

I read it, and in light of the campaign of President Trump, it's in Job chapter 12 and verse 23, and the first line reads this way, he makes the nations great and then destroys them.

And I think we have to take that, you know, soberly and realize that just because America has been great doesn't mean that God might not judge us.

Let me just say one other thing briefly, and this bears a lot of thought and discussion, which we don't have time for today, but there is an amazing correspondence between some of the natural disasters that have occurred here in America over the last couple or three decades, and the way in which we have handled, treated the nation of Israel.

And this has been chronicled by a man named John McTernan in a book called, As America Has Done to Israel.

And when you read this, you get through it, you say, this stuff's not coincidental.

It can't be. There are too many times where America has trampled on Israel, has sort of stabbed

Israel in the back, and almost immediately we have suffered some kind of severe natural disaster.

That includes Katrina and Rita, the hurricanes that we've heard about, again, we've been reminded about again, in light of the hurricanes this weekend.

And 9 -11, the same thing. And I just looked, even this weekend, to remind myself that there were news stories in this past week about the

Trump administration demanding that Israel give back key U .S. military aid, and there was a meeting between Jared Kushner and Netanyahu, and this attempt to forge the two -state solution, and the fact that Trump promised to transfer the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, and he never has done that, and things of this sort.

I know that's a subject that probably would have to be pursued elsewhere, but I do think that it's very possible, because we know that in the past,

God has judged nations, and in fact, in the prophecies, in the future, God is going to judge

Gentile nations on the basis of how they have treated his people Israel. All right, we're going to be returning from our break.

It's an elongated break because of the requirements of Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, and I have to check up on them to make sure all is well down there.

I've been checking up on a lot of my friends in Florida, and I will check up on them as well today, but they require our program in two 54 -minute chunks, so we're going on an elongated break, but when we return, we'll hear from Pastor Kirk Vonderswag, and we will hear from Reverend Buzz Taylor about their own thoughts on God's sovereignty over 9 -11.

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Iron Sharpens today. Chris Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in, our guests today on the Pastor's Roundtable are

Pastor Ron Glass of Wading River Baptist Church on Long Island, New York, Pastor Kirk Vanderswag of the

Neighborhood Church of Greenwich Village, New York City, and Reverend Buzz Taylor, who is, as you know, a frequent co -host on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

We are having a Pastor's Roundtable today on the issue God's Sovereignty over 9 -11, commemorating that horrific attack on American soil, bringing about the greatest number of lost lives on American soil from an enemy attack in the history of our nation.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is some special events that some of the

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Well, we are now back to our discussion on God's sovereignty over 9 -11, featuring our pastors

Roundtable, Pastor Ron Glass of Wading River Baptist Church, Pastor Kirk Vonderswag of Neighborhood Church of Greenwich Village, and Reverend Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Pastor Kirk Vonderswag, if you will now reply to your response to those who are, they know of a situation that has global significance, perhaps, or it's at least globally known through the news media outlets all over the world, and you'll have

Christians erring on two sides of the coin, or opposite ends of the spectrum, perhaps is a better term, where you have some who candy coat the issue, remove

God completely out of the scenario, or perhaps those who think that they have the mind of God and act as a prophet, and will tell you exactly why

God brought a certain calamity or disaster upon a people. If you could comment on that.

Well, I want to first thank Pastor Glass for mentioning the Luke passage. I thought that was pertinent, and I think it does raise the issue that when these things happen, we're reminded continually,

God is continually reminding us that we are living in a fallen world, we are living not in the final state, we are living before the face of God who stands as the one who, as Romans 11, 36 says, from him and through him and to him are all things, to him be glory forever, that that is where all of human history is moving, and that he comes and reminds us of that in such actions as the wickedness of human beings, perpetrating their wickedness on others, and as well as the kind of natural disasters that we see.

Clearly, under his sovereignty, these things take place, and we know that the intent that he has for these things is good, because he himself is good.

We know that his glory is above utmost importance before his eyes, and so these things are designed to awaken us to that reality.

One thing that I recall in the wake of 9 -11, and now

Greenwich Village has a well -deserved reputation, and when people think of Greenwich Village, they don't think of it being a spiritual paradise, but it was very interesting to see in the wake of that attack, there were spontaneous altars that were set up on street corners and different intersections, where there would be flowers and candles lit, and so on.

It was an example, I felt, of this innate understanding, darkened by our fall, but there is a longing there, that there is something greater than this circumstance that can solve it, that can make it right, that can bring peace, that can bring justice.

There is no vocabulary for it, they have pushed God revealed in scripture out of the conversation, they have substituted other things for it to solve it, but here they were confronted by something that they could not answer through their normal means.

Here, even in Greenwich Village, there were these spontaneous altars, is all I could put them for, of some sort of votive offerings being offered to something out there that would make sense of what had transpired.

I think that what the scriptures give us is a direct and clear picture of how this makes sense, that it's underneath the care of a sovereign

God who is without exception and without one iota, atom, whatever one could apply, of anything less than being just, righteous, true, merciful, loving, so that even in these things, that God is revealing himself to be who he is for the intent that people would reach out to him, and as Pastor Grass had said, that they would repent lest ye likewise perish, that God stands ready and is communicating continually to all of these things as to who he is, his nature, his purpose, and where everything is headed.

So I'm not going to be one, I'm an

Osby who's going to call just where on the spectrum such an event like 9 -11 falls in terms of God's judgment, a particular judgment, let me put it that way, or where a particular judgment of a storm that hits, but that it all is there as evidence of the fact that we are not what we were created to be, and we are not yet what we will be, is

God speaking to us through these things, sovereignly directing them for the purpose of showing forth his glory.

And Reverend Buzz Taylor, your thoughts? Well I have the bane of going third, so all my thunder is stolen, but I'm going to backtrack a little bit.

Well you also have more material to steal as a result of being third. Yes, but I'm going to agree with both

Ron and Kirk that I'm glad you went to the Luke passage as well because that's where I was also wanting to go.

And of course the question asked was, were these greater sinners than the others that they died in this untimely way?

And Jesus said no, that wasn't the reason, but he did say unless you repent you shall all likewise perish, and Pastor Ron you said that God has warned people many times in advance of things like this happening, and that was a warning to Israel of something that was about to happen as well, because within 40 years the temple was brought down on the worshippers, their blood was mingled with their sacrifices, and they did actually likewise perish.

Literally likewise. Literally likewise perished, yes, because they did not repent and they rejected

Jesus as their Messiah. And I will go so far as to say that that generation was judged for their rejection of Christ, and I want to go,

I want to be heard clearly as saying that that doesn't apply to all Jews through history now, okay?

They paid for their sin of the rejection of Messiah back in the first century. But also we were, one thing that I noticed that came out of 9 -11 was for the first time in years,

I think since I was a young Christian, we had people, unconverted people, just, you know, our average worldlings actually admitting that there was such a thing in the world as evil, because we've grown up in a very relativistic society, and this was in our face, it's like no, this is really evil, this should not have happened, and they didn't have answers, and it was nice that we, for a while, while they were remembering,

I think we've forgotten since then, but while we were remembering there was evil, we were able to say, hey, and here's why, and here's the solution to the evil, and so it gave us numerous witnessing opportunities, but we also see there the depravity of man, you know, is man basically good?

No, but unless we repent, we shall all likewise perish, to go back to what Jesus said. And I also remember, not too many people will remember this, not too many are going to be old enough to remember this, but we were warned a long time before 9 -11 hit,

Ali North told us to go and take out Osama Bin Laden, because he was an evil man, and he was going to be trouble, and he was laughed at, and he, you know, it was very prophetic after all.

Yes, and just to bring up a point that you made again, saying that the

Jews paid for the rejection of Christ at the destruction of the temple, but having said that, that may be a type of vengeance or wrath that God poured on the nation at that time, whether you're a

Jew or Gentile, there is going to be a far greater reckoning for rejecting Christ when you perish, whoever you may be, if you perish without repentance and faith, there will be a far worse reckoning than the destruction.

They were the only generation who had the opportunity to reject whom they'd seen with their eyes and actually kill him.

Right, and let's see, we have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, who has a question, and CJ asks, how do you delicately bring up the afterlife of those who perished in such horrific events?

If you are fairly certain that the person who died, no matter what kind of situation was that caused the death, was not a believer, as far as you know, you had never heard them utter a single word that would give you the indication that they had genuine repentance and faith, and yet you are simultaneously reaching out to the loved ones of victims trying to comfort them, and they may ask you, where do you think that this loved one is now for eternity?

How do you respond to these kinds of very sensitive questions? And we'll start with you, Pastor Ron. Well, my response is the same as when

I have to conduct a funeral of an unbeliever, and that kind of question arises.

I can say two things. If this person clearly was not a believer, then

I'm not going to pull any punches and lie to them. I will say to them, God's word tells us that those who die in unbelief will perish in eternal hell.

And that is, you say it in a kind and compassionate way, but you can't soft -pedal the truth.

And once again it comes back to the whole point of repentance.

And so what I'll often say in a situation like that is, if there's uncertainty, in other words, if this person, maybe there was some question as to whether they were a believer,

I will say, this person's soul is in the hands of God. And when

I do a funeral for a person like this, or even a person who I know is an unbeliever,

I will say, this person is in the hands of God, and therefore this occasion, this funeral, or what we're talking about now, this conversation that we have, is for the benefit of those of you who are still living.

You have the opportunity to repent before it's too late. So I don't focus on those who have passed away,

I focus on those who are still living. And that's exactly what Jesus did in the Luke 13 passage.

Pastor Kirk? Yeah, I mean, one thing that I think wants to be emphasized is that the person who has lost someone is grieving.

And whether we know that that person, whatever life they had lived, but the loved one that's asking the question is asking it because they loved that one who has gone.

I'm going to presume that. And so that there's comfort that needs to be offered out of common grace to the person who is grieving, and to thank, you know, to recognize the life that has been shared.

And to encourage them to thank God for the life that they shared with this other one.

To say, to give thanks to God that this person was in their life, they had the opportunity to love, to share life together, and to experience

God's mercy through that. And yet at the same time, as Ron said, that the important thing is that that person who you're speaking with is the one who has to have that question answered for themselves.

And as Ron said, something to the effect, I would echo, that the fate of that person, where that person is, is indeed in the hands of a just, righteous, and merciful

God. But you now know the circumstances, because we're going to tell you what the

Scriptures have to say on this. And that same God who allowed you to share that life with this one, that gift that he gave you is the same

God who offers you the gift of eternal life, that you can have an assurance for yourself as to when you die, that you will behold him face to face.

And that is where you need to take what God has already given you, and then move towards that God who's been so gracious to you already.

Yes, and of course, though, there is that reality that the hands of that merciful and loving

God are not merciful to everyone when it comes to the final day of judgment.

That is when his mercy ceases to be present as it had been for so long since the existence of Adam in the common grace of God.

I know some of our Reformed brethren don't like that term, but the extension of mercy and patience towards all of humanity, whether they are saved or not, on the day of judgment, that will no longer exist, and people will be eternally condemned.

How do you even address that issue when it comes to somebody who's mourning?

Well, I think that, again, what has that person experienced so far of God, and that I think that they can understand the mercy of God for themselves.

But you're absolutely right, what you're directing towards is the fact that God's mercy is mercy in the face of God's judgment.

Mercy is that relief, right, of the righteous judgment of God. And so they need to see clearly that when the time comes for all to stand before God, it's going to be either we're closed in the righteousness of Christ or we're not.

And there's always, I suppose, even though there might not ever be evidence of something that we ever heard or saw in the life of that other person,

I don't mean this as some sort of lighthearted cop -out. We don't know, again, what happened in the last few moments of someone's existence.

But again, as Ron said, that's in the hands of God, and He is merciful, and perhaps

He was merciful to that person, but it is mercy in the face of the fact that there will be that day of reckoning.

And they need to address that, and they can leave the concern of that loved one in the hands of God at this point, because there's nothing that He or I or anybody can do about that at this moment.

It is in the hands of God. Yes, and if you... God has shown him mercy already.

Chris, I think that one of the complicating factors we face here,

I know I do, where we live, is the erroneous teachings that a lot of people have absorbed, the beliefs that they have, frankly, a lot of it drawn from Romanism.

You know, they're wondering, is this person in purgatory, or they've been told by a priest or a minister somewhere that, well, we all go to heaven, this kind of thing.

So when we're offering comfort and compassion, we're also having to do this against the backdrop of a lot of bad theology, and it's a tough call sometimes to know how much to say, how much do

I have to straighten out this person's theology before I can really bring them biblical comfort.

And, of course, I'm sure that you would both agree that there is a time for total silence other than,

I'm here for you. If they're weeping, tell them to let it out. Tell them that they should trust in God now themselves.

You don't necessarily always have to bring up the eternal fate of somebody who has died, I'm assuming you would agree.

And actually direct the focus of the attention not to the hopeless case of the one already who has perished, but the ones who are living, including the person that you are giving comfort to.

Well, yeah, except that in many cases, the person you're talking to, the relative, friend, or whatever, is actually asking as to what we think about that person's eternal destiny.

Where is this person now? That's where it gets challenging. And although many people have too much optimism in regard to deathbed experiences, conversions, deathbed conversions,

I should say, they are real. I mean, the thief on the cross we have, and especially if you know that you have been bringing the gospel to a certain person, just because you weren't there to be an eyewitness to their embracing that gospel, to them falling on their knees and crying out to forgiveness, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

It could have happened moments before the person died, even though we should never put our confidence in that ourselves, especially if we are not followers of Christ.

We should not live like we can always wait until the last moment, because you might not even have a second thought.

You might be killed in an instant without having any opportunity. But we're going to our final break right now.

It's going to be much briefer, and we'll have Rev. Buzz Taylor give his comments on this when we return. Now's your final opportunity.

I would send in your email quickly if you have one, chrisarnson at gmail dot com. chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

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This is Chris Arnzen. And this is the final segment of today's Pastors' Roundtable featuring Pastor Ron Glass of Wading River Baptist Church, Pastor Kirk von der

Swaag of the Neighborhood Church of Greenwich Village, New York City, and Reverend Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Reverend Buzz, it's time for you to respond to the issue of when you are trying to comfort those who mourn over the death of a loved one and they are bringing up the eternal state of that person when no one has been an eye or ear witness to that person confessing

Christ and knowing of their repentance and faith. Well, this has been brought home to me on a number of occasions because I used to get a lot of funerals for people in the community who did not go to church.

The funeral director would call me up to come to a funeral if he had one available. So I was talking to total strangers.

And that can get very interesting at times. But one of the things that I've noticed is people are always seeking some kind of hope for the lost loved one.

Now, this is, of course, if there's people in the church that have lost one that they know is apart from Christ or they strongly suspect it.

They're always seeking for that little glimmer of hope that, well, you know, I witnessed to him last year and he seemed to be a little bit interested.

Maybe, maybe, you know, if they say maybe and there's a little chance then, you know, my answer to them would be, well, let's hope so.

You know, that's good news. That's good to hear. But what we never will do, what

I never will do, of course, in any situation we have not the right to do, is to in any way compromise the gospel of Jesus Christ.

That, you know, he will not make any exception for anybody. And we cannot in any way give the impression that he will.

So I really do like the answers that we've already heard. That person is in God's hands. God could have somehow communicated with this person.

We just don't know. And we will find out. But what we're interested in right now is, you know, are those who remain.

The people who have the opportunity to respond to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Now that's about, that's what

I would say, you know, at funerals in the immediate situation. But we all know loved ones, whether it's grandparents, aunts and uncles, a lot of people.

Every one of us knows people that we've loved that have gone into eternity without Christ.

And we'll be wondering, you know, how am I going to enjoy eternity knowing that they are not there? I heard it put this way once that I think says it pretty well.

And this sort of came up earlier in our conversation. We have to understand that when a person enters into eternity at death, any semblance of common grace has been removed from that person.

We are remembering and enjoying the good memories we have of them. They were good people, sociable and whatnot.

You know, all the wonderful memories we have of them. But those things are overshadowed by the fact that in their eternal state, all the common grace of this life has been removed.

And they are living in an eternal state of blasphemy against God, of hatred towards Him for what has become of their condition and so forth.

So we can remember with beauty those memories of how they affected us in life.

But I don't think it's going to bother us for eternity that they're not there because God ultimately knows that they are where they belong.

And we have Christopher from Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who says,

I know that all of the ministers involved in today's program are

Calvinists. I was wondering how you approach the subject of God in His sovereignty using wicked men to bring about those things that He has ordained.

And at the same time separating the fact that those wicked people that God has used are indeed responsible at the same time.

And unless they repent, they will spend eternity in hell. And Pastor Ron, if you could start. Well, we have some biblical examples of that.

God refers to King Cyrus of Persia as His servant.

He refers to Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon in the same terms. Now, neither of these men were godly men, but God used them to accomplish

His purposes. And Nebuchadnezzar, in particular, in order to take

Judah into captivity, destroyed Jerusalem, destroyed the temple, which would seem counter to His purposes for Israel.

But in fact, He had purposes for Israel. He was bringing judgment upon them for their repeated disobedience, their refusal to listen to the long parade of prophets that He had sent to them.

And therefore, He used them. And God specifically refers to Nebuchadnezzar as His servant.

So, yes, God uses evil men. He uses godless rulers in order to accomplish

His purposes. Now, you know, you can say, I have a hard time understanding how

God could do that. But He does use evil in order to accomplish His good purposes.

And Pastor Kirk von der Slog. Well, I think as well of Peter's sermon in the

Pentecost. Jesus delivered up according to the definite plan for knowledge of God, you crucified and killed them by the hands of lawless men.

There is always God's redemptive purpose behind the things that He does, again, to show

His glory. And He will bend the evil and the wickedness of human beings to that good end.

And yet, they obviously are evil. And they are doing it because they want to do it.

I think the conception that people sometimes have is that somehow God is taking people who are just kind of neutral or not really bad people and kind of just taking them and making them do evil things.

But that's hardly the case. It's that they are evil. And Pilate and the

Jewish leaders who conspired to put Jesus to death, they wanted to do it, and they did it full bore.

So it's not that they themselves are not evil and God is somehow invading them with evil.

It's rather He's taking their innate evil and bending it to His purposes so that they remain culpable and God is working, again, to bring righteousness and to show forth

His glory. Yes, some people outside of Reformed theology make the mistake. In fact, I had a

Roman Catholic during a radio debate that I just had last week with a

Roman Catholic. I did not know beforehand it was going to be a debate. I thought we were just giving our testimonies, me giving my testimony of conversion out of Roman Catholicism into biblical

Protestantism, him giving his testimony from conversion out of Protestantism into Roman Catholicism.

This was on the unbelievable show in the United Kingdom who contacted me to participate in this.

But the Roman Catholic participant, he brought up as a great wickedness the doctrine of double predestination, and then he went on to wrongly define that.

And he seemed to be under the opinion that God would be casting into hell people who didn't have their election lottery ticket no matter what they did in their lives.

In other words, in his mind, you could have millions of repentant people who love

Jesus and follow Him who are going to hell because they didn't have an election lottery ticket. But obviously, the only time that God supernaturally intervenes into the hearts of men is when

He saves us. He doesn't have to supernaturally import wickedness into our hearts.

We are all made out of the same clay, as Romans 9 tells us, but He supernaturally rescues some of us,

His elect, out of that and gives us new hearts that we may repent and believe. Am I right on that?

Yes. That's it. I mean, our default position is contrary to doing

God's will, that we are of the world, and the world is a system that is against the purposes of God.

And it's the world that Jesus came to save, to actually redeem people out of an entire, if you want to call it a system, but an entire enslavement to rebellion against God.

And Reverend Buzz Taylor has something to say. Well, yes, it's my turn. And I have to take it before anybody steals my thunder again, you understand?

So thank you, Ron. It's all about you, isn't it? I want to thank Ron and Kurt for not stealing my thunder this time, because you didn't go any direction that I'm going to go with this.

But I do like the directions you did go to, so don't get me wrong on that. But I think we have the classic example there, too, of Joseph's brothers.

You know, Joseph said to them, when he was reunited with them, you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good to save life.

You wanted to take life, but God meant to save life. And we have God using evil men and their evil intentions, but for his purpose, to preserve his people.

And all I can say for the non -reformed people that are listening, struggle a little bit through Romans chapter 9, because there's some pretty difficult stuff in there.

In fact, that was the chapter that put me solidly in the reformed camp, was that I couldn't answer some of these questions.

But really, God raised up Pharaoh for the purpose of displaying his glory in him.

And you read that whole story of Pharaoh, and God said on numerous occasions to Abraham and Moses, he promised that they were going to come out of Egypt with a mighty hand.

So, you know, when Moses goes before Pharaoh and says, you know, let my people go, it wouldn't have been a mighty hand if Pharaoh said, okay, blessings to you, bon voyage, you know.

No, but Moses was told even before he went to him, he's not going to listen to you. I have hardened his heart so that he won't, because I'm going to show my power in him.

And that's exactly what happened. And he says he will harden whom he will harden, he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.

And, you know, he endures with patience vessels of wrath that he may show his glory to the vessels of life, of mercy.

So Romans 9, I think, really plays big on the answer to that question, that God does use evil people to accomplish his purposes quite often.

And we have for a final question of the day, Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, he said, don't we have to warn people about the danger of inventing false gods according to their own imaginations where they may flee for peace and comfort during times like this?

I think Pastor Kirk was speaking earlier about something similar, about altars being erected in Greenwich Village.

Although this may in some way move us at the same time, isn't this a danger where people salve their consciences through gods of their own invention?

And I'll start with you, Pastor Ron Glass. Yes, I guess it can be.

And that's just a symptom of the ignorance of unbelievers. And that's why in times like this we have to use every opportunity we have to preach the gospel, the good news of saving grace in Christ.

Yeah, the good news isn't really good news unless we hear the bad news, is it? Well, that's right.

And the bad news that actually happens is a good opportunity to remind people of the depravity of man.

I mean, you know, again, Jesus in Luke 13 basically told people, don't think you're any better than they are.

And in case you happen to think that you're better than Osama bin Laden, I'm sorry, we're all hellbound sinners until we come to the grace of Christ.

And one thing, just a quick thing that I would say, a question that I don't know the answer to, but I guess

I'd like to know how many people actually came to Christ as a result of 9 -11.

I've never heard anybody really address that, but maybe Pastor Kirk has more of a handle on that.

Pastor Kirk? Well, I can't say that I can give numbers. All I can give is personal experience, is that there were two people who, and we're a small congregation to begin with, so percentage -wise this is pretty good.

But two people who, because of a result of 9 -11, came and were committed themselves to Christ.

One, a woman who'd come out of a Greek Orthodox background, and another who had just kind of grown up sort of in and around the church.

But they both, out of it, were awakened to their need to really deal with God, and they have become solid, continuing believers.

They've moved away to other places, but it was through that event that God drew them to himself.

And Reverend Buzz Taylor, your thoughts? Well, I can't say that I know anybody that directly came to Christ through 9 -11.

Okay, well, I want to make sure that, before we run out of time, our listeners have all the contact information that they need.

WRBC .us is the website for Waiting River Baptist Church in Waiting River, Long Island, New York.

That's WRBC .us. And if you would like to call them, their phone number is 631 -929 -3512.

631 -929 -3512. And then we have the

Neighborhood Church of Greenwich Village, New York. Their website is ncgvnyc.

That's N -C, Neighborhood Church, G -V, Greenwich Village, N -Y -C.

Neighborhood Church of Greenwich Village in New York City, N -C -G -N -Y -C.

And that is .com. Their phone number is 212 -691 -1770.

212 -691 -1770. Pastor Ron Glass, going back to you, do you have any further contact information that you care to give?

No particular contact information, but we invite our listeners to listen online to our program,

River of Life, every week. Yes, that's on WEGB radio, and that is a part of the

Eastgate Broadcasting Network there in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York.

And if you Google WEGB radio, you will get the website to that.

I don't know if you have that in front of you, Pastor Ron. No, I don't. That's Eastgate Broadcasting, WEGB, and our listeners can get a hold of all the information that you need to listen to the

River of Life radio broadcast. And it just so happens that both the Reverend Buzz Taylor and myself, we edit that program every day to make it ready for broadcasting.

And what times are you on, Saturday and Sunday? We're on Saturday morning at 9 .30

and Sunday evening at 7 .30. Great. And, Pastor Kirk Vonderswag, any other details that you want to give as far as contacting you and the

Neighborhood Church of Greenwich Village? Well, if I might plug one event that's coming up this

Friday. Sure. It's close by at 7 p .m. There's an author that's written a book called Hacked Minds, and he's challenging us to unplug from all of the devices and the

Internet that is kind of robbing us of some of our humanity. So it should be an interesting presentation.

That's this Friday at 269 Bleeker at 7 p .m. And other than that, you can contact us through our website.

We, too, are on Sermon Audio. But the website will be a good portal for people. Why don't you repeat that website one more time?

NCGVNYC .com, NCGVNYC .com. Great. Well, it has been such an honor to have both of you on the program.

Pastor Ron Glass, I know that I could never repay you and your congregation for the blessing that you've been to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I just thank

God for you. And I know that we would not exist, likely, if it were not for your support. And Pastor Kirk Vonerswag, it's so great to rekindle an old acquaintance, and I hope that our friendship grows stronger in the days, weeks, months, and years ahead, and we look forward to your return.

In fact, if you could both hold on, I'd like to reschedule the two of you for your own interviews in the near future, if you want to hold on when we go off the air.

And I thank you, Reverend Buzz Taylor, for being my co -host once again. I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who wrote in questions today.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.