Jeff Durbin: Dealing With The Cults

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Thank you for blessing me with the teaching gentlemen,

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I'll pray and then we'll get started. Father I want to pray that you would God bless this discussion, this talk.

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Lord in myself I confess I am not worthy to be up here today.

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You can handle your Lord, but I pray God you use God in a broken vessel to glorify yourself.

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I pray that you would by the power of your spirit God in your word challenge us, grow us, teach us

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God. Use the spirit of glory God in your church to raise up men and women and children who will serve you with their lives.

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And lay their lives down for those lost in cults. I pray that God you would bless and speak through me

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God. That Lord it would not be my words but yours. I pray that I would decrease you would increase

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Lord Jesus. In your name, Amen. Alright so we're going to talk today about the cults and really important I think message to have.

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I wanted to do a biography on Whitfield but somebody beat me to the punch so I said okay I guess I'll do something on the cults.

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So here we go. I want to focus in on the most important things we need to do and talk about and be engaged in.

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Whether it's Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, whether it be Roman Catholicism, something like that.

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An aberrant Christian doctrine sort of system. I want to focus in on what are the most important things we need to discuss, know, be ready to engage with.

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And I think although I usually try to hesitate giving biographies or any kind of personal information as the main focus of the message.

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But I think it would be important for you guys to hear a lot of the stuff that's happened in my life by way of engagement. So you can see sort of how we can handle this and approach people who are lost in these cults.

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I got into ministering to the cults when I first heard the gospel.

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I immediately got engaged with ministering to and speaking with Mormon missionaries. Oddly enough

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I was living right outside Washington D .C. at the time. And there's not a lot of Mormons in D .C.

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in comparison to where I'm at right now. But God had me immediately thrust into talking to Mormons.

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And here's how it happened. I was reading my Bible. I wasn't raised in a Christian home. Far from it. Reading my

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Bible after I first heard the gospel. I was in the theater arts class. I was only about 17 years old.

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And a guy sat down next to me and said, hey what are you reading? I said, it's the Bible. And he said, oh cool.

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You're Christian? I said, yeah I'm Christian. He goes, I'm Christian too. And I was like, oh right. High five. And I was excited to finally meet a

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Christian. I wasn't raised in even that kind of context. So for me, hearing the gospel and actually meeting somebody who professed faith in Christ was kind of a unique thing.

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I wasn't raised in that kind of context. So it was exciting for me. And so we're talking and I was really excited to meet somebody who was a

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Christian. And so he says to me, he says, so what level of heaven are you going to? And I had only been in the

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Word for a limited time. Maybe a couple of months. And so that immediately struck me as odd. And so I said, hopefully the highest level is where I want to go.

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Is that a really good answer, right? Once it sounds arrogant, you can offer it. I'll take the highest level. And so it was weird.

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So he says, well I'm from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints. And so right after school, high school that day,

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I run over to a Christian bookstore that I had basically become a fixture in by that point. And the owner of the store's name was

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Tony. I'll never forget. The name of the Christian bookstore was Heaven Christian Bookstore. And so I used to go in there and sit on the floor and just read books because I was a poor teenager.

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So he just let me do it. And so I came out and I said, hey, Tony, do you have anything on the denomination of the Latter -day

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Saints? And he was like, Jeff, that's not a denomination. That's a cult. So he runs into the back and he grabs just a handful of different pieces of literature and he just throws stuff at me.

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And he says to me, just take it, Jeff. He says, you don't have to pay me for it. I want you just to know this stuff. And so what happened was

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I spent all night that night staying up. And I watched the classic films, the

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Godmakers and all the stuff that was available at the time. I started reading things. I was so blown away as a new believer, as someone who had just heard the gospel, as to how far off this was and yet how close we sounded in sitting there in that theater arts class.

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It really blew me away. So I didn't sleep that night at all. I literally didn't sleep. I didn't go to bed that night.

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I just stayed up. And I took notes. And what happened was in the morning, I went to school early.

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I went to a copy place. And I ended up that morning with limited resources making photocopies of pages of scripture with other pages of Joseph Smith's stuff and the

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Book of Mormon. And I had highlighted stuff. And I had basically come to school with my docket, my case against Mormonism.

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And so I go to my friend named Wade. And I was like, Wade, you're in a cult. And I threw the book at him.

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And of course, that is how you do not minister to the cults. But I thought, this will do it.

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You'll see. You're going to have to see. Here's the text of scripture, which Joseph says. You're going to have to see that.

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It's right there. It's obvious. And so what happened was about six months of he and I in very close relationship with each other, meeting all the time.

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And I ended up actually meeting with just a bunch of different Mormon missionaries.

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I went to the Mormon temple in Washington, D .C. with his family for Christmas. I ended up engaged in this

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Mormon community in a way I did not anticipate. I went to dinner at his house constantly. He was at my house constantly.

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I met with his family. Went to the temple with his family. And I was the whole time preaching the gospel to him.

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I remember once actually driving in the van, leaving the Mormon temple at Christmas time. And this is with his people from his church.

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And the man driving that took us was a black man. Yeah. And as a young, zealous Christian, I said, so how are you

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Mormon and black? If you know the history of Mormonism, that's actually a good question.

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And so this was sort of my engagement. And so this is the kind that was in this conversation all the time. So I wasn't sort of placating to it.

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But I was actually engaged in the culture. But I immediately had a love for these people that was absolutely unshakable.

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They were so loving, so beautiful, and so zealous, and such wonderful people.

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I love them because I can't stand the fact that you're lost. And I want to reach you.

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So at the end of this whole course of relationship with Wade, we're in my room one day.

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In my room, in my bed, and we're getting into the Scripture together. And finally he says to me, he says, Jeff.

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He starts crying. He says, I know what you're saying is true. I know it's true. The church is wrong.

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Joseph's not the prophet. I know it's true. And I'm thinking, praise God. Praise God. And he says, I can't leave the church.

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I said, what do you mean you can't leave the church? You just said it's wrong. It's not true. You know what I'm saying is right. And he says,

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I can't leave the church. If I leave the church, I lose everything. I lose my mom, my dad, my family, my friends.

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I lose everything. I can't leave the church. And so I remember that this verse as a new believer just welled up within me.

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Right there, it came straight from God. I said, then what shall a prophet of man do? He's the whole world.

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He loses his soul. And so that was the beginning of my commitment to reach these people.

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To reach people who had ate Christianity, that knew our language. They spoke our language.

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In the Christian ghetto, we have language. It's Christianese. Right? And they speak

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Christianese. And they ate Christianity. They borrowed our terminology. But they pour entirely different meanings into those words.

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And so I committed to reaching these people. And just quickly, what are we doing now as a ministry?

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Well, I got to move when I was about 18 years old to Arizona. And this is just an amazing move of God's providence.

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You need to hear this story because you'll begin to see how amazing it is that God really did what he did in my life to his glory.

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I went to Arizona anticipating I was going to go to Arizona to be closer to Hollywood. I was doing a lot of stuff with movies and TV and karate stuff.

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And so I thought, okay, I'm closer there. And I was actually going to go to Bible college. And perfect move. No idea that Arizona, where I was going, has the second largest population of Mormons in the world.

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And so I get to Arizona, and I'm staying with a guy. He says, Jeff, welcome to Arizona. He says, I literally got there the night before, the next morning, 8 a .m.

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Here's the keys to my car. Go ahead and drive around and take a look around the town. So I'm excited to get in his car.

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And I drive down the Arizona lanes. And I was, boom, first light. Oh, there's a

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Mormon ward. Wow, that's awesome. I have a ministry out here. Drive down the road again.

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Boom, there's a Mormon ward there, too. And I'm thinking, this is the craziest thing ever. So I'm driving. Everywhere I turn, there are

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Mormon churches everywhere. Then there's a Mormon temple. There's Mormon missionaries driving by me. I was like a kid in a candy store.

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I was like, this is the most amazing thing ever. Ever. And so I saw a sign for the

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Mormon Easter pageants. Please come visit the Mormon Easter pageant. Week -long events where they depict the life of Christ at the

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Mormon Easter pageants. Mormon Temple in Mesa, Arizona. Go there for the first time.

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No one's with me. I have a Bible, backpack, tracts. I'm ready to go to reach the Mormons. No one's with me.

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I get there. And I meet James White, a friend, Dr. White, for the first time. And I saw him surrounded by Mormon missionaries.

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And I saw you can engage this community. And there were over 100 ,000 people that show up over a week to this event.

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And about eight Christians. 100 ,000 people, about eight

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Christians on the sidewalk. Amazing. And so that was in 1996. 2014.

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Every year we go to the Mormon Easter pageant in Mesa. Over a week's period of time we have over 100 ,000 people that show up.

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It's like a sea of people. You can't even imagine how many people show up to this event. Shoulder to shoulder you stand with them sometimes.

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It's an amazing opportunity. We go, as a matter of fact, next month we're going to start our mission to the temple during their

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Christmas lights. Where, again, it's tens of thousands of people that show up over this period of time just to come view the

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Christmas lights at the temple. We can engage in conversation with them, Mormon missionaries and all the rest. And I've got to say this to encourage this kind of ministry.

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Although I feel like I'm preaching to the choir in this room. Is this ministry necessary? Absolutely it's necessary.

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There are Mormon families all around me. But I cannot engage with all of them in a friendship.

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But I know where they're at several times a year where I can engage the community to preach the gospel.

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And as a result of going there and laying our lives down in missionary sacrifice to the Mormon community in Arizona.

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We've lost count as to how many people have come to Christ out of Mormonism. And have received

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Christ and come to Him in a saving relationship with Him as a result of us just being there.

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And I want to just give you a story as a word of encouragement as we leap into the discussion here. Because I want you to hear how mighty God is.

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Which we already know. I want you to hear how amazing He is when you step out in faith and you just obey Him.

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So we're at the Mormon temple. There's times where you hand out tracts by the thousands at this thing.

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Sometimes they get thrown back at you. Sometimes they're received with graciousness. I'm at the west side of the temple and outside the gate.

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And I'm talking to a woman. And a Mormon missionary comes out. And he's wearing the full Mormon missionary garb.

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He's got the white button up shirt. He's got the plaque. Elder so and so on his plaque. And he comes out and he sees me talking.

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He looks really curious. And so he starts sort of listening to the conversation. Then he starts to interject. So as I'm talking to her,

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I end up talking to him as well. And so now I'm going back and forth between her and him. Her and him. He would say, yes, but.

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And I would say, well, the Bible says this. Give him a text. And so he would sort of chew on it a bit. And then I'd talk to her. And everything he said,

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I would just come back with a rebuttal from Scripture. And I'd point to the Word of God. And then I went back to her. And I started seeing he was getting very frustrated with this.

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So I've got a backpack full of tracks next to me. He reaches down.

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Kneels down quietly. Places his hand into my bag. And scoops a handful of them like this.

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I see it out of the corner of my eye. And I very gently kneel down. Put my hand on his hand.

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And I said, listen. I have 75 ,000 of those. I said, so if you take them.

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I'm just coming back with more. And I said, so here's the deal

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I'm making with you. I said, you show me from the Word of God. That Joseph Smith was a true prophet.

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And that the Mormon Gospel is true. And the Mormon God is the true living God. And I said, I promise you before God.

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I will leave this place. And I will never, ever, ever come back. Deal?

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And so he takes his hand back. And he says, that's fair. So we start preaching now.

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I'm giving the Word of God. Isaiah 4310. Before me there was no God before me. Neither shall there be after me. I am the first and I am the last.

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Besides me there is no God. He's God alone in the heavens above. And on the earth below. There is no other.

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I said, you believe God was once a man. Who became a God one day. He had bombing gods and damning gods before him.

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And they had bombing gods and damning gods before them. It's an infinite regression of gods. And you believe you're going to become a

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God one day yourself. God says you're never going to make it. And so he starts to cry. And so I said, are you okay?

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He says, yes man. I got to go. I just got to go. I said, come back. Let's talk for a second. His name was Wesley. I said,

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Wesley, come back. Let's talk for a second. He says, I can't. I can't. I got to go. And so he leaves. And he ends up.

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He keeps coming back. Day after day after day. And he says, hey Jeff. I said, hey

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Wesley, what's up? He said, you got a verse for me? I said, go read Isaiah 43 and 44.

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Before me there was no God before me. Neither shall there be after me. You believe there was. And you're going to become one one day. He says, great man. Thanks.

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He'd walk away. After about two weeks of ministering to him, we end up actually hiding with him in alleyways.

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Looking through the Bible. Together. My friend calls me.

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Final night. He says, Jeff, you're not going to believe what I say. And Wesley just followed me up. And he just turned to Christ. I said, praise

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God. The very next day, Wesley shows up. Didn't expect it. He shows up with us at the temple.

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Wearing regular clothes with my tracts in his hands. Handing out tracts to Mormons.

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And you should have seen it. This guy had one of the most incredible Mormon testimonies you can imagine. Mormons are jealous of his testimony as a

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Mormon. Believe me. I won't go into it now. But they're jealous. He's a temple Mormon. I'm sorry.

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At the visitor's center. He is out there now. And all the missionaries inside. And there's a lot of them.

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They all come flooding out. And they're like, Wesley, what are you doing? What are you doing? And so he starts to preach to them the gospel.

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From the scriptures right there. And he starts saying, no. The word of God says this. Joseph lied to us.

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You've got to turn to Christ. You've got to trust in Christ. It was the most amazing experience ever.

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While this Mormon missionary turned to Christ. Life totally transformed. And amazingly.

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I had been told all these years. At churches that I had gone to. As a

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Christian. And I would go out and invite people to come with me. To do this work. I had been told by pastors. And by Christians.

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Do not engage in that work. It is too abrasive. You make friends with them.

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You invite them to dinner. You have a relationship over a course of years. That's how you reach those people. And I would watch the dozens of people come to Jesus out of Mormonism.

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As a result of laying your life down for them. By going to reach them where they were at. You need to do this.

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So what I want to do today. And talk about how to reach the cults. Is I'm going to try to lay something down. That will help us in ministering to anybody.

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From any different type of cult. And we do want to approach this issue as Christians. And we've heard a lot about this this week.

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Zion is a good friend. And he's a blessing to the church. With presuppositional apologetics.

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Which is the best. Praise God. For his work. One of the things you've heard a lot. During this conference.

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Is the power of 1 Peter 3 .15. And the moral obligation that we have as Christians.

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With 1 Peter 3 .15. It's always quoted as. Always be ready to give an apologia.

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A reasoned defense. Anyone asks you. What are you going to do? A gentleness and reverence. Right? That's how it's always quoted.

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And it should be quoted like that. That's the word of God. Except that's not all there is. Amen? The first part of the verse says.

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But sanctify Christ as. What? More. More in your hearts. Always be ready to give a reasoned defense.

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Now that is absolutely vital. You must understand the importance of.

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That first part of the apologetic mandate. We call it the charter verse of Christian apologetics. Okay?

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That's the commandment. Always be ready with a reasoned defense. To everyone who asks of you. But the first part of the verse says.

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What? Set Christ apart as more. In a debate that Dr. Bonson had with R .C.

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Sproul. Both my heroes in the faith. Both these men. Amazing men of God.

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Without question. But in that debate. Between Dr. Bonson and Dr. R .C. Sproul. It was obvious.

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Who was standing on the word of God. Consistently. Obvious. And one of the things that Dr.

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Bonson brought up. That I think needs to be highlighted. Is the issue of how do we reach people. In a reasoned defense.

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Highlighting this point here. And that's very important. What moral obligation do we have as Christians.

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When we defend the faith. It's a moral issue. As to where you stand. When we engage in a defense of the faith.

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Apart from a commitment first to Christ as Lord. In our hearts. We are engaging in a moral issue.

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If I defend the faith against an atheist. And I assume that God may not exist. Or that Christ isn't

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Lord over everything. Including my reasoning. That's a moral issue. When I engage with a

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Mormon. And I do not start with Christ as Lord. In my encounter with a

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Mormon. That's a moral issue. It's a moral issue. Quick foundations. I know the signs aren't going to give you most of them.

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But you need to see it as we build this quickly. I have two chairs here. Over the years I've tried to explain.

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The necessity of standing on Christ. And His word. In our defense of the faith.

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And what I've done is I've done it with two chairs. I think it's a very helpful way to do it. So hopefully these chairs will kind of stick out in your mind.

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As you think about presuppositional apologetics. Or I would like to say biblical apologetics. Okay.

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When we look at these two chairs here. We're thinking about foundations. Jesus says. There are two kinds of people.

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With two kinds of foundations. With two kinds of results. You've got a wise man.

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And a foolish one. You have someone that builds a life on the rock. And someone that builds a life on the sand.

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And you have one that withstands the storm. And you have one whose ruin is great. Amen. And Jesus says.

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That the one who has their life on the rock. Is the one who builds upon His commands. His teaching. Right.

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And so we don't want to be fools. Amen. Jesus says very clearly. Whoever is not with me is.

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What? Against me. Is that. Something that we can bring into every area of life.

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Is it true. That in the science class. You are either with Christ. Or against Him. What guys?

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Amen. Absolutely. That needs to be shouted. To our generation. Brothers and sisters today.

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As an encouragement. You are either in the science class. With Christ. Or against Him. Amen.

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In any area of life. In any realm. Whether it be political. Whether it be theological.

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You're either with Christ. Or you are against Christ. The Bible says. Proverbs 1 -7. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of.

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In Christ. Are hidden all the treasures. Of wisdom. And knowledge. The Bible teaches us. In 2

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Timothy 3. 16 -17. That all scripture is. God breathed.

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The word there is. Theonu stops. It gives the idea of. You put your hand in front of your face. And you start speaking.

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And you feel your breath. Touch the palm of your hand. That's the very breath. Hitting your hand. That is the scripture.

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Paul says. Theonu stops. It's the breathe out word of God. So we hold in our hands.

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The revelation. Of the living God. He has spoken. You need to know this. Christians believe. In a revelational epistemology.

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We believe. We can know. We know. Because God. This is profound. It's very intellectually rigorous.

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High level. So prepare yourselves. We know. We know. Because God said so. How does that sound?

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Now you can put that. In a bunch of different. Philosophical terms. And spice it up. Make it look really fancy. And put bells and whistles on it.

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Fundamentally. We believe. We can know. We know. We know. We know. We know. We know. We know. We know. We know. We know. We know.

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We know. We know. We know. We know. We know.

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We know. We know. We know. We know. We know.

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We know. We know. We know. We know.

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We know. We know. We know. We know. We know.

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We know. We know. We know.

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We know. We know.

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We know. We know. We know. We know. We know.

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We know.

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We know.

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It's the game of whack -a -mole. The image of God in us is inescapable. We can't help being what

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God has made us to be, amen? Okay? Jumping into the water and pretending to be a fish doesn't make you a fish, amen?

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Eventually, you're coming up for air, right? You're pretending. And the person who's in the image of God that rejects his creator and says,

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I don't know him, who does not have evidence, is pretending to be a fish. And you'll come up for air, or it'll be the game of whack -a -mole.

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The image of God is so inescapable in all of us, it will pour out of us constantly. You cannot help being what

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God made you to be, as if the unbeliever is engaged in a lifelong game of whack -a -mole. The image of God pops up, he smacks it down.

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But guess what? He missed one. And you gotta look for it. We know

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God, amen? God's screaming to us. But God also gives us his word in history.

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He spoke him a special revelation. And that's how we can know things with certainty when they claim as Christians.

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So as Christians, we're supposed to be standing on the rock, on Christ, his word, his commands.

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His word is supposed to be the very foundation of everything we believe and we think. What I say out of my mouth is supposed to be consistent with what

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I am standing on, amen? As a quick example, as we leap into the cults for a moment here,

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I want you to think about foundations. Everybody has a worldview. I'm not going to go heavily into that right now, we've already done that.

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A worldview is basic beliefs, pre -beliefs, presuppositions, about life, reality, knowledge, ethics, whatever.

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And that's what we're supposed to be standing on, amen? That's supposed to be underneath us. Now as Christians, we have a revelational epistemology.

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We have the word of God. We're supposed to be standing on that. And so what comes out of my mouth is supposed to be consistent with what

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I am standing on, right? Okay? Now over here, just quickly, let's look at radical unbelief.

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Say a Dawkins or a Dennett or a Dan Barker or a... What, by the way,

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Dan Barker, Cy and I spoke with Dan Barker on Redemption Radio a couple years ago.

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Excellent, excellent talk that Dan Barker has never mentioned since it happened. It's true.

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So radical unbelief is also a worldview. There's basic presuppositions and pre -beliefs about the world, about ethics, about knowledge, and what have you that are supposed to be standing on them.

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The unbeliever says there's no God, there's no ultimate meaning, no ultimate purpose, only blind and pitiless indifference.

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Will Provine, the professor of biology at Cornell University, says there is no imminent morality. What does that ultimately mean?

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And I love that he's so honest here, although it doesn't have to be. He says there's no imminent morality.

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What's that mean? It means there's no active, real, serious, actual morality.

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It's all just an illusion. There's no real morality. He says we live, we die, and we're gone.

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We're absolutely gone when we die. Unbelievers who are radical skeptics, or they're unbelievers who have built an anti -theist today, they believe that the universe really came from nothing into something.

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And they chastise us for believing in miracles. Amen? It's amazing to me. Dr. Lawrence Krauss, amazing, writes a book,

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Universe from Nothing. And people go, oh, that's sophisticated. It's amazing.

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And I'm just like, wow, the fool says in his heart, you're so dumb. Right? So anyway, so I digress.

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Here we go. Radical unbelief, nothing to something. Non -moral matter became moral.

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Inorganic matter became organic by an amazing, Dr. Krauss would say, some amazing mechanical reconfiguration just happens to be that way.

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We live, we die, and we're gone. We're absolutely gone when we die. They believe that our ancestors were fish.

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Unbelievers believe that our ancestors were fish. Let that sit for a moment.

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That is so important to hang on. They believe that we are ultimately just stardust.

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We are protoplasm, meat bone protoplasm, bobbing on the surface of the cosmos. That is what their claim is.

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So what we do in pre -suppositional apologetics is we're standing on the word of God. They're supposed to be standing on their position.

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Now our job is not to believe everything that comes out of their mouth. We're supposed to find that suppression of truth as Christians and call them out on it so we can call them to repentance and faith.

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My job is not simply to answer every single argument lobbed against God. My job is to call them to repentance and faith in Christ and to point to the image of God in them that they're suppressing.

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So when we talk about radical unbelief as a Christian, I want to point this out to you for a moment in the sense of consistency. We're supposed to be standing on the word of God.

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They're supposed to be standing on their worldview. But somehow they keep switching over to our worldview. They borrow our worldview, amen?

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That needs to be pointed out. But what we need to do is ask a question. Hopefully this question is out for us.

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We're standing on the word of God. They're supposed to be standing on their worldview. What comes out of my mouth is supposed to be consistent with what

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I'm standing on. So an example would go like this. Ready? Tell me if this is consistent or not.

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Ready? I'm on the word of God. Here's my claim. It is absolutely immoral and evil to eat your neighbor.

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Consistent? We're good? Okay, this is an easy one, guys. It's supposed to be the

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Herald Society. What's yours, Mike, right here? Okay, so let's try and make it a little easier.

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It is a moral absolute. You are to love your neighbor and not eat them. Good, okay.

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Now, over here. Ready? Radical, anti -theism,

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Dawkins, Provine, Lawrence Krauss. Ready? We all came from fish. We're going ultimately nowhere.

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We live, we die, we're gone. There is no good, there is no evil. There is only blind and pitiless indifference. That's Dawkins' quote from River Out of Eden.

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Here we go. Atheist, ready? It's what I'm saying consistent with what I'm standing on. It is absolutely wrong to eat your neighbor.

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There you go. It's not absolutely wrong to eat your neighbor. That's your preference, but I know a few people that actually enjoy it.

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I don't know them personally, because guess what? We put those people behind what? Bars! You know who else puts them behind bars?

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Atheists. They don't want them around. Okay? So, we want to think about foundations always when we do apologetics.

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Listen, it's a moral responsibility and requirement for us as followers of Jesus Christ. It is a moral responsibility.

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Get that again. Not just a philosophical issue. Now, not only is it philosophically consistent to stand on the revelational epistemology, it is a moral obligation we have as Christians.

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If I reason in some way apart from Christ as Lord of my reasoning, there's something wrong with my reasoning.

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And it's not just immoral, it is also, by the way, philosophically inconsistent. So, there's our foundations.

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We're standing on the Word of God always. Amen? Amen. That's how it has to be done. Now, when dealing with the issue of the cults, it's done in the same way.

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It's always interested me. I'm not sure if you guys have ever felt the same way. It's always interested me when we do the issue of presuppositional apologetics, calling atheists and skeptics on the leaders to repentance and faith in Christ.

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We talk about presuppositional apologetics. We think of what our worldview is, what their worldview is. We're calling out the image of God being suppressed in the conversation.

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We're calling to repentance and faith, which, by the way, is the goal of apologetics. It's a call to repentance and faith.

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It's always interested me when people get the arguments of Christianity versus atheism.

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They go, I get it! Right? It clicks. They go, I see it! And they go, praise God! And I love when

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I watch someone get it. I'm going to say this quickly. I love when someone finally gets it and they deal with the most ferocious intellectual atheist.

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Intellectual atheist goes, oh, your God is just immoral. He's so wrong. He engaged in genocide and this and the

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Old Testament. And I love to watch the little, humble, old Christian girl go, well, considering your worldview, so?

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Pockets! That is a philosophically tight and awesome argument. The atheist complains.

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You go, so? Our ancestors were fish, right?

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And they go, well, yes. So why are you complaining about this? You already gave it up. When you gave up God, you gave up the use of that argument.

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Now, I have a reason to complain about genocide. We can get it to the word of God to explain that. But you gave it up.

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You need to repent of your sin against the God that you know. But people have said, okay,

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Jeff, I understand this with atheism. But how do you then, as a presuppositionalist, deal with someone who's an occult?

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And that's bothered me at times. I'm like, why are you asking that question? I don't understand where the question comes from.

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It's a simple answer. Over here, what am I doing? I'm standing on the word of God, and I am pressing it on the unbeliever.

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Whatever he says that's against God's word, I reject. And I believe the word of God, and so I preach the word to this person.

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I don't care if he accepts it or not. Jesus isn't asking for your stamp of approval on his papers.

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And so I read the word of God, repent and believe. Now, it's the same thing whether you're dealing with a

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Mormon, a Jehovah's Witness, a Muslim, a Christian scientist. It does not matter. We're standing on the revelation of God.

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And we're bringing it against their whole system. Now, the key thing here, and I'm sure

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Si has talked about this, Proverbs 26, 4 -5 says, the two -fold apologetic method, we call it, is don't answer a fool according to his folly, or you'll be like him.

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And the other part of it, not a contradiction, two -fold method, is to answer the fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

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Two -fold apologetic methodology, Dr. Bonson, one of my heroes of the faith, used to always say, the first part is do not go where they go in their reasoning.

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You stand on the word of God. Don't answer a fool according to his folly, or you'll be like him. In other words, don't act like him, don't reason like him, don't go where they go.

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You stand on the rock of God's word. You do not engage in their presuppositional commitments. You don't engage in their folly.

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You stand on God's words. The second part of the apologetic is what? Is to then step into their worldview, and to tell them to look at their feet.

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Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit. I think it's a good way to put this quickly, in the two -fold apologetic method, and we'll go right into the engaging with the cults here.

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Time is, I have a sin in the area of time, so you have to forgive me, okay? So engaging, sorry,

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I've got to look at the clock, but wait a second, alright. When we engage right here, answering a fool according to his folly, is engaging in his worldview, showing him his feet.

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So I liken it like this. We're in the most amazing, tight ship.

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It is unsinkable. It floats, and it can get in the highest waves.

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Nothing is sinking in this ship. It is watertight. It is new. It is amazing.

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It's a powerful ship made of steel. The unbeliever, say the atheist, comes in a little rowboat that's rotten, and it has holes in it.

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He comes rolling up to your ship, and he says, Hey, your boat is stupid!

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The intellectual power of atheism. Hey, your boat is stupid, and you're done for being in it.

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Now mind you, you're in an unsinkable ship. He's in a rowboat with holes. The first part of the two -fold apologetic method is one, don't answer a fool according to his folly, or you'll be like him.

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He wants you to get into his boat, and to reason like him, to be like him, to live life like him.

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He wants you to get out of this unsinkable ship, to get into a rickety rowboat that's sinking and going under.

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Don't be like him. Do not exit the ship. The second part of the apologetic methodology is one, to go on down into his boat, grab him by the head, and push it down, and tell him to look at the boat you're in.

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It's sinking. Get in line. Two -fold apologetic methodology.

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And when dealing with the cults, it is exactly the same. You stand on the word of God, and bring it to bear upon their whole system and life and worldview.

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And we do it the same way. I don't answer a fool according to his folly, I don't want to be like him, and then I begin to show him, answering according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

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Now when dealing with the cults, you need to understand whether it's Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, whether it's

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Islam, whatever it might be, you need to deal with the important issues. Number one, the problem of language.

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The problem of language. The cults speak our language. They talk like us.

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They use our Christian ghetto language, they speak Christianese. Very important. Dr.

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Walter Martin, who actually inspired me to be in ministry, and he was dead with Lord, but through his tape ministry and everything else inspired me to do ministry, to do what

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I'm doing today, starts his book, The Kingdom of the Cults, off with a chapter very important on scaling the language barrier, which is probably one of the most important things you can do, and it really fits well into what we're talking about here about presuppositional apologetics.

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You need to get beyond the basic language. The cults speak our language.

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They say Jesus, they say Heavenly Father, they say Cross, they say Resurrection, they say

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Bible, they say Salvation. They speak Christianese, but they do not mean what we mean when we're engaged in conversation.

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Christians come to me all the time and say, Jeff, I was out and I saw some Mormon missionaries, they came up to me, I talked to them for two hours,

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I'm totally confused, they sound just like me. The issue is, is their speaking your language being entirely different things.

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As an example today, I want to have something to aim at today so it makes it a little easier for us. When dealing with Mormonism, Mormonism uses our language.

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Now, back in the 70s, Mormons would have hated for you to refer to them as Christians, many of them.

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They did not want the title Christian. They wanted to be called Mormons or Latter -day Saints.

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And as time has gone on, they've really wanted to now become one of us and so they call themselves

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Christians. They'll often be very offended if you say I'm a Christian, you're a Mormon, they'll say we're Christians too.

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They speak our language. When we say Jesus, our mind immediately goes to the

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Word of God. Jesus. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the

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Word was God. He was in the beginning with God, nothing that's been made has been made without Him.

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We know that from the Word of God, right? The Bible teaches very clearly in Colossians 1 .16

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and onward, For by Jesus were all things created in the heavens and on the earth, whether visible or invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions, or rules or authorities, all things through Christ.

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Amen? We know that. We think Jesus, He is the eternal Son of God. That's who

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He is. He never had a beginning. The beginning of the Gospel of John, in the beginning was the

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Word. It says, The way that's constructed there shows that as far back as you want to go forever with no reference point to stopping, the

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Word was already there. And the Word was toward God, face to face with God, an intimate relationship with the

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Father from all eternity. And the Word was God. That's Jesus. That's what we're standing on when we say

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Jesus, that's what we're standing on. The Mormon, however, is standing on the revelation of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Orson Pratt, Joseph Fielding Smith, Gordon Hinckley, all the

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Mormon prophets. They use our terminology, Jesus Christ, but when you look down at what they're standing on, you realize they mean

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Jesus, one God among many gods. Jesus, the offspring of Elohim, a resurrected

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God -man and one of His goddess -wives in the pre -existence. Jesus, Lucifer's brother, not the creator of Lucifer, His brother.

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Jesus, our elder brother. Jesus, who the early Mormon prophets and apostles taught was a polygamist while He was on earth.

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Jesus, the one who began His atonement in the garden, finished it on the cross. Jesus, in Mormonism, is not the eternal

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God with no beginning. He became a God one day and came into existence as the spirit -child of Elohim and one of our goddess -mothers.

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In Mormonism, when you say God, they believe, Joseph taught in the King Follett discourse, one of his most important discourse sermons.

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He gave it at the funeral of a man named Elder King Follett. Very telling about his theology.

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He said that God was once a man, as we are now. His body is tangible as man, of flesh and bone.

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He taught in the King Follett discourse that he says this, listen closely. We have imagined and supposed that God was

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God from all eternity. Now quickly, real fast. Who imagines and supposes that?

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We do. We imagine and suppose that God was God from all eternity. Why? Because the

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Word of God says, Psalm 90, verse 2, from eternity into eternity, you are God. So we're the ones doing that.

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What does Joseph say to that? He says, we've imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away and do away the veils that you may see.

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He says, you must learn to become gods yourselves the same way all gods have done before you.

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Get behind the language. When they say God, you have to cut right to the issues and say, wait a minute, let's specify what we're talking about here.

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You're saying God, but I don't believe God was once a man who became a god one day. I don't believe that God had gods before him, so we need to break past that language and get right to the core issues.

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When talking to Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, you need to get beyond the language barrier.

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You must cut as difficult and uncomfortable as it may be. You have to cut right to the heart of the issue.

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Even if it means in an instant the person walks by you and says, well, we believe in Jesus, too. You need to just say it.

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You need to say, you mean Lucifer's brother? Mormons get very uncomfortable on the surface and that's a good thing.

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It's always good to be a godly troublemaker. Amen? Walter Warren said, controversy for the sake of controversy is a sin.

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Controversy for the sake of truth is a divine command. When out, if I love somebody enough, I know at the temple,

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I know I have about maybe 10 seconds as the person walks by me to say something that will irritate them enough to stop and talk to me.

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So, when I talk to Mormons that walk by, I say, why are you doing this? We're Christians and we love you and we believe

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Joseph taught a false gospel and he has a false god. Think that stops them? Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't.

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And so, they say, we were Christians, too. Well, you're Christians? Well, you believe Jesus was

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Lucifer's brother? And they'll say, yes. The Bible says in John chapter 1, Jesus created everything that existed that would include

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Satan and Colossians 1 teaches that Jesus is the creator of Satan. So, your Jesus is not the true

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Jesus. And the problem is, the Bible says in 2 Corinthians chapter 11 verses 3 and 4,

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Paul's worried about the Corinthians in the first century that they are actually believing in other, they could have somebody come in that would teach another

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Jesus, another gospel, another spirit. And Paul says, I'm concerned because you might put up with this.

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Paul, in the first century, relatively quickly after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus, has to deal with other

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Jesuses, other gospels, other spirits in the first century. Brothers and sisters, it's not new in church history.

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Paul dealt with it. So, we need to confront the false Christ and immediately show them that's not the

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Jesus that I believe in or the Bible teaches. We're standing on our world view, they're standing on theirs.

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We need to confront with the word of God, their position. Cut through the language. Cut through the language.

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The problem of language. Now, here's the issue. Second big point I want you to get tonight. When we deal with the cults, whether, again, it's

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Islam, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, they have the same problem, those. They ape

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Christianity. They copy us. They claim to be standing on the same revelation that we are and they end up distorting the message.

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That, by the way, is the classic Christian definition of a cult, by the way, is a religion that apes Christianity and distorts its message.

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That's the Christian definition of a cult, classically speaking. But we need to talk about the two major issues,

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God and the gospel. Know this. It's very important. Over the years, thousands and thousands and thousands of interactions with Mormons in the temple and Jehovah's Witnesses and, of course,

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Muslims as well. But the big interaction for me in Arizona is with Mormons. I have seen people come to minister to Mormons and I've seen them do it, frankly, wrong.

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They get out and they start talking about things like Mormon underwear. They say, tell me, why do you wear that strange Mormon underwear?

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You want to immediately break that opportunity up and talk about the room. And here's the crazy thing.

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What shows up as a non -essential, silly thing is there are a lot of people in this room that are wearing underwear that I don't want to talk about.

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Do you get the point? Why am I ministering to somebody and I want to start talking about, straight away, their underwear?

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Or you bring up the issue of Starbucks. How come Mormons don't drink Starbucks? You guys don't drink coffee.

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Why don't you drink coffee? You need to understand that these are, for the Mormons, sort of cultural things for them.

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And what you're doing when you engage in those conversations is you're not coming at them with a gospel message in there.

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You are coming at them with a cultural issue for them. And you are not bringing the gospel when you talk about these cultural issues.

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And so it's very important to move away from the non -essential issues. Talking to the

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Muslim, why do you dress like that? Where do you wear those shoes? Why do you eat that food? It's not an important issue.

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When you're talking to someone in the street and bringing the gospel, it's about God and the gospel. It's about God and it's about the gospel.

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And when you're thinking about how we deal in collision with them, we need to stand on the Word of God and bring those issues to bear on their position because it doesn't matter wherever else they are right.

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If they are wrong on their God and their gospel, they are wrong enough to lose their souls.

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It doesn't matter wherever else you're right. Same issue with Roman Catholicism. Tony beautifully does say when you talk about the issue of what they do with Mary and Christ as the only mediator,

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Christ alone. It doesn't matter wherever else you are right. If you've got a false

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Christ, a false gospel, you are going to hell. That's just the truth.

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And we need to bring those issues to our Mormon friends and neighbors, to our Jehovah's Witness friends and neighbors, and we need to bring them

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God and gospel. God and gospel. God and gospel. Send them away with, you've got the wrong

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God and the wrong gospel. They need to be thinking on that, meditating on it. I can't tell you how many times,

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I can't tell you how many times God in His grace in people's lives have been able to see, see someone come to me and say,

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Jeff, I've come to Christ and I was like, what happened? They'll say, it was that verse you gave me.

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It was that verse you gave me. They'll say, I was, I was, I went along and I read Isaiah 43 and I couldn't get around it.

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It just plainly says there's no God's form before God, none after Him. I believe that there were and I was trying to be one one day and I could not reconcile what

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I believed with the word of God. And God used that passage of scripture to cut their hearts and to open their eyes up so they would come to know

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Him. You need to leave them with God's word every single time. If it's even in a moment on the street, an opportunity person walks by.

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Mormon says to me, well, we're Christians too. Well, the Bible says, before me there was no

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God's form, neither shall there be after me. Isaiah 43 10. You believe there were gods before God and you are trying to become one one day.

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God says He's the first, the last, the beginning, and the end. There are no gods besides Him. And they'll say, oh, but that's, we believe that too.

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There's only one God of this earth. And what you say to that is, again, word of God versus their system.

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Deuteronomy chapter 4 verses 35 to 39. He's the God in the heavens above and on the earth below.

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There is no other. Send them home with that. Let them go home with the word of God in their hearts and their minds every time.

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Now, when we talk about the issue of God in the gospel, I want to try to commend to you guys a couple of works quickly. Number one, you need to pick up the book by Dr.

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James White, a friend of mine, one of my heroes, the faith. I recommend this book all the time.

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You need to get the book The Forgotten Trinity by Dr. James White. The reason I recommend that is there are excellent works that are larger than that, but that book reads like a novel and you will love it.

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You will enjoy it as you read it over the rest of your life. You'll be able to say, I think, at the end of the book, what

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Dr. White hopes he'll say. You'll be able to say, I love the trinity. Christians talk all the time about,

51:14

I love eschatology. I love eschatology. I love this. I love worship. I love singing. I love this. How many times do you hear a

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Christian saying, I love the trinity? Right? God is trying you.

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There's one God, three eternal, co -equal persons, Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

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We need to love that and we need to bring that issue to bear always against the cults. Listen, you understand the trinity and you get armed to the teeth with the word of God and the trinity.

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You can go with that message to the Mormon, the Jehovah's Witness, and the Muslim and minister effectively in their community.

51:51

Minister effectively because the issue with the Muslim, even, is he says, Jesus, peace be upon him, always says that.

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It's kind of weird having dialogue with him. Every time they say a prophet's name like, peace be upon him, it's like they're stuttering and so just be ready for it, okay?

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It's a little awkward. But when you're talking to them, they'll say, we believe Jesus is Messiah. Jesus is a prophet.

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But he did not die for sins. He did not rise from the dead. And he is not the eternal son of God.

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Well, how do you squash that? You're not going to do it with your fancy footwork, philosophical reasoning.

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You've got to stand on the word of God, which they profess to also stand on. And you need to bring that to bear on their system.

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And you have to be armed to the teeth with scriptures from the Old and New Testaments that testify clearly that Jesus is

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God, the eternal God. Now, I'm not going to go into the details of the

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Old Testament.

53:01

I'm not going to go into the details of the New Testament. go into the details of the Old Testament. I'm not going to go into the details of the New Testament. of the Old Testament. I'm not going to go into the details of the

53:07

New Testament. I'm not going to go into the details of the New Testament. I'm not going to go into the details of the Old Testament. I'm not going to go into the details of the

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Old Testament.

53:34

I'm not going to go into the details of the New Testament. I'm not going to go into the details of the New Testament. I'm not going to of the Old Testament. I'm not going to of the New Testament. of the Old Testament. I'm not going to go into the details of the

53:40

New Testament. I'm not going to go into the details of the

53:51

New Testament. I'm not going to go into the details of the New Testament. go into the details I'm not going to go into the details of the

54:03

New Testament. I'm not going to I'm not going to I'm not going to go into the details of the New Testament. I'm not going to go into the details of the

54:08

New Testament. I'm not going to go into the details of the

54:18

New Testament. I'm not going to go into the details of the

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New Testament. I'm not going to go into the details of the

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New Testament. I'm not going to go into the details of the New Testament. I'm not going to go into the details of the

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New Testament. of the New Testament. I'm not going to go into the details of the New Testament. I'm not going to go into the details

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No way in the law of God will justify anybody in his sight. It brings about the knowledge of sin.

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It condemns us. Christ is the righteous one. You need to hide yourself in him.

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You need to have his righteousness and not your own. And by the way, very important, when you start using words like faith and justification with a

55:30

Mormon, oftentimes they don't even know what justification means. You need to explain those terms.

55:35

Very important. Don't go to a Mormon and say just the word justify and assume they know what it means. They don't.

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Their view of salvation is not your view of salvation. They believe that salvation is becoming a

55:47

God one day. They believe in different levels of heaven where unrighteous or kind of righteous

55:54

Christians might go and some unrighteous kind of Jack Mormons, that's sort of a lazy Mormon kind to them.

56:00

They've called them Jack Mormons. Some of those are gonna go to church, attend temple, give, those sorts of things. So they have places where you kind of go here, you get resurrected, you go to this level, this level.

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But the celestial kingdom is where you become a God one day. That is ultimately salvation to the

56:14

Mormon. So when you say salvation as a Christian, no, you're not speaking about the same thing. What do we mean? Salvation, I get

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God. Salvation, I'm declared righteous before a holy God. Salvation is

56:28

I have peace with God. Now, today, it's not just about heaven one day.

56:34

It's about right now, knowing God in eternal life right now. And you need to explain what it means to be declared righteous before a holy

56:39

God. Explain and bring the law of God to bear on the cultist all day long.

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Bring the law of God to bear. Note Galatians 4, Galatians chapter five. Christ become of no effect to you, whosoever of you attempts to be justified by law, you follow from grace.

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Galatians chapter three, you're under the curse to fulfill all of it if that's how you attempt to be justified.

57:05

You need to know God in the gospel. Now, quickly, I would like to show you very important points.

57:12

And I think that this is a tremendous, powerful thing we need to know in dealing with the cults.

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Powerful. We talked yesterday about the kingdom of God. We talked about the rule of God, the rule of the

57:28

Messiah in history. This is really important. It's very important. All of these cults,

57:35

Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Islam. And by the way, I gotta say this. People get tripped over Islam.

57:42

Islam is the same as Mormonism, fundamentally. Now, obviously, different God, different belief system, it's the same problem.

57:52

It's a religion that's borrowed the Bible to pretend like it's its authority and then distorts the message and adds to it.

57:59

And then it gets to a different version of Jesus, a different God, a different gospel. It's just a earlier form of what

58:05

Mormonism does and Jehovah's Witnesses do. Very important. But know this. All of these cults will say the same thing.

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And even the new one, I was just talking to a brother this morning about, what's it called again? It's called the? World Mission Society.

58:18

World Mission Society. Very, very strange cult. And wicked. And aggressive.

58:26

You'll know you're talking to them when they talk about Mother God in heaven. You'll know. But all of them say, fundamentally, ready, at the beginning, ready?

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The church fell away. The church fell away, there was corruption, and God came and fixed it all up and brought it back again.

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Mormonism starts, when they come to your door, very easy to get this. Mormons come to your door, what do they say?

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Joseph Smith had a first vision. By the way, their first vision account is one of several. Okay, but the one they come to your door, where it says that Joseph Smith didn't know his church to join.

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He goes and he goes into the woods, the great good woods, the darkness overwhelms him, and God the

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Father, a resurrected God -man, by the way, separate God, Jesus Christ, resurrected God -man, stands before him and God tells

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Joseph to join none of the churches because they are all wrong. Their creeds are an abomination, their professors are corrupt.

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They draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. And Joseph is told that he's going to restore the church.

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Not, listen, reform the church, restore it because it had fallen away.

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There was a great apostasy, it's just gone. The Watchtower does the same, Islam does the same.

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This issue alone, you can deal with every single cult with this issue alone, the kingdom of God issue.

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It's very important. The Bible taught in God's revelation in the Old Testament that the

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Messiah did not just bring redemption, salvation, forgiveness to the ends of the earth, but that the Messiah was going to be king and the

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Messiah brings a kingdom. Now, whatever your eschatological persuasion, doesn't matter, believe me, it's not important in this discussion, except to the point right here.

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Daniel chapter seven says that the Messiah comes up to the Ancient of Days. Notice the direction?

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Up to the Ancient of Days and he's given a kingdom. And notice, and this is really important, in Daniel chapter seven, it says, and to him, verse 14, was given a kingdom, dominion and glory in the kingdom that all people's nations and languages to serve him.

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His dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away. His kingdom, one, that shall not be destroyed.

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What does every single cult religion say? It was destroyed, it was off the earth, and God had to restore it.

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Show them they are fundamentally in conflict with the word of God. Matthew 16, 18, powerful passage.

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Here, Jesus talks to Peter and says what? Very important, you need to know it. You need to know it because you need to immediately respond at the beginning of Mormon theology with this.

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Jesus says about his church that he will build it and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

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Here's what you do. Joseph said they did. God said they wouldn't.

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Ask the Mormon, who do I believe, Jesus or Joseph? You must ask the question in that way.

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Who am I to follow, Jesus or Joseph? Jesus says the church would not pass away, would not fall away.

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The gates of hell would not prevail against it. The kingdom of God issue, Isaiah 2 even, the kingdom would not be destroyed.

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It would come into the world as a stone, would become a mountain. It would not be destroyed. Every cult immediately falls on its face at the very beginning and the kingdom of God issue.

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As soon as they start talking. Jude, you know the verse three, earnestly contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

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Who do I believe, Joseph or Jesus? Mormons will often say we believe the Bible is the word of God insofar that it is correctly translated.

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Now, what that typically means is that we believe the Bible so long as it agrees with us.

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That's how it works itself out in actual practice. Now, what they're supposed to be, you need to help them by the way, what they're supposed to be attacking is not the translation of the text but the transmission of the text.

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There's a difference. Translation is taking from the original languages, primarily Hebrew and Greek, and going into another language like Latin, German, English.

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That's translation. Transmission is the text itself through time transmitted to us copy upon copy upon copy.

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Help your Mormon friend out. When they say the Bible's been translated incorrectly, you need to say, well, if you don't like the translation, why don't you learn

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Hebrew and Greek and go and do your own? I'll do a translation right now.

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In our game, hologos, halogos, and proson, theon, kateos, and hologos. In the beginning was the word, and the word was face to face with God, toward God, and the word was

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God. That's a J -D -T. See that? Translation is different than transmission.

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Help them say, well, you're supposed to be attacking as a transmission of the text. They go, oh yeah, that's what I meant. Okay, all right, so help them out.

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They'll say the Bible's been transmitted incorrectly. Now watch here, what we said here. Ready? What are we standing on?

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The Word of God. Okay, so what comes out of my mouth has to be consistent with what I'm standing on. Ready? Jesus says, heaven and earth have passed away.

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My words will by no means pass away. Is what I'm saying consistent with what I'm standing on?

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Yes, okay. The Mormon says, ready? We believe the Bible. The Bible's the

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Word of God. They'll even give you one at your door. King James Version, by the way. They come to your door with King James Version.

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We believe the Bible's the Word of God. It's part of our four standard words. King James Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the throne of Christ.

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There is more stuff than that, but those are their standard words. We believe the Bible's the Word of God. And, ready?

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The Bible is missing many plain and precious parts. It's been corrupted. Is what

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I'm saying consistent with what I'm standing on? No. So what do I do?

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Do I have to believe the words that are coming out of his mouth? Nope. I stand on the Word of God.

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They say the Bible's been corrupted. I say this. To my Mormon friend. Is Jesus Lord?

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What would they say? They'll say yes. They will. Don't be abusive to them, by the way.

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They will. Is Jesus Lord? They'll say yes. Can he lie? Jesus says in that Bible, heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away.

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Joseph says the Bible's missing many plain and precious parts. Who do I believe?

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Jesus or Joseph. That is how you have to bring this to them.

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They teach that we believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

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Did you catch it? Don't you love how cults do that? Give you a little something and you go, oh, I'll take that. And then they go, here's more poison.

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I'm with it. Because watch the beginning. We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, that people of God say yay and amen.

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And then they say, through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. See that?

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It's the third article of faith. They also say, 2 Nephi 25, 23 says, ready, don't you love it?

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Watch this. By grace you are saved. What do we say? Through faith and out of ourselves.

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It is the gift of God, not according to works of any man shall boast. Amen? You know by heart some of you guys, right? Now watch this.

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Ready? By grace you are saved, after all you can do. Do you see?

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Do you see the corruption? So what you need to do, is you need to come against their system with the word of God.

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You need to show them, hey, 2 Nephi 25, 23, that you're standing on. By grace you are saved, after all you can do.

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Contradicts Ephesians 2, verse 89. By grace you are saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not according to works of any man shall boast.

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You say that God was once a man and became a God one day. The Bible says, before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

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Bring it to bear. Can I say one more thing?

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Is it okay? Is it okay? One more thing? I think this is important. Okay, we're dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses and every other cult.

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You need to know you're gonna face this. You're gonna face this. They will hear you saying you are saved by grace through faith and Christ alone in his work alone.

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They will hear you saying that and they will have an immediate response to it. Now by the way, if you and I are not preaching the gospel of God's grace and salvation in Christ alone through faith alone apart from works of law, if we are preaching that to people and we never hear the objection, so I can just live how

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I want, we're probably not really preaching the gospel because you need to sometimes hear that objection.

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If we're not preaching the grace of God and the freeness of it all through Christ alone, if we're not preaching in a way where we get the objection, so I can just do whatever

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I want, then we're not preaching like Paul. Because Paul in Romans chapters one through five so preaches a message of grace and faith apart from law, apart from law, apart from law, a gift of righteousness in Christ as a gift through grace apart from works, he so preaches it powerfully that in Romans six he has to actually answer the objection he anticipates.

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Romans six one says what? What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sins that grace may abound?

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What's Paul doing there? He is already getting ready for that objection because as he's preached before in the past, he knows what they're gonna say.

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Now this is very important. Our Mormon friends and family, our Jehovah's Witnesses friends and family, they will hear the gospel of God's grace through Christ alone because of his righteousness, not because of ours.

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We're united to him through faith. They will hear that message and they will say, so what, you can just say you believe and live how you want?

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What you need to do is correct them. We don't believe anybody is saved by a mere profession of faith.

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It is the possession of faith in Christ that joins us to Christ.

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Know that. Next point, you need to be able to express to them, very, very critical, it is essential that Christians do not believe based on the

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Bible that a person can be reconciled to God and nothing happen. You need to be prepared to show them that we are united to Jesus in his death and resurrection so there's an old self crucified for Christ and a new self raised with him.

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You need to show them that we believe in a union with Jesus that brings us to new life and you need to bring them to Romans six.

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Paul says, how shall we who die to sin continue to live in it? We are not saying you have to be asked to fax about Jesus and you just say, good to go.

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You come to be joined to Jesus in his death and resurrection to be raised in newness of life.

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If you do not have heart and life changed, not perfection, but heart and life changed so that there's a trajectory upwards, then you are not a

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Christian, you're still dead. And you need to say that to a Mormon and I gotta tell you about, and this is my last thing here,

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I've gotta tell you about one of the worst experiences ever I recently had, it crushed my soul when it happened.

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Got a call from someone after I gave a message at a very large church, mega church. I will not be able to enter that because when

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I preached there, they lost a lot of people in their audience when

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I spoke of Mormonism. Well, one of the gentlemen was moved by it and he said, hey, my daughter is being visited by missionaries, will you come to help?

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I'm worried about her. And I said, I'd be happy to. And no, no, no, this man, he called me in the morning and said, please come.

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And I said, I'll come, absolutely. And so he explained the situation to me and so I get to the house, it's an apartment, dad is there, the young woman is there in her apartment.

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I get to the apartment and I'm sitting in there for about half an hour waiting for the missionaries to show up, we're talking and everything else. Missionaries show up, there's two missionaries and two other

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Mormons that are with them to help and they're talking to this girl for weeks. And so I ended up in an hour long conversation with these

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Mormons, working through all of what I'm showing you today, bringing the gospel, bringing the gospel, bringing the gospel and they have the objection.

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They say, so what? You can say you believe and live how you want? And I said, it's amazing that Paul anticipates your objection.

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And in Romans six, and I explained union with Christ, death to the old life, raised with Jesus and I'm saying,

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Christians have new hearts, God's taken a heart of stone, put a heart of flesh in, he's put a spirit within you and caused you to obey his statutes.

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I'm going on and on about the life change, regeneration, God saving, bringing us life. And you know what?

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As I finish this conversation up, they go, I've never heard that, that is amazing and that actually helps me a lot.

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I need to look into that. And all of a sudden, the front door opens and a young man walks in.

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He's like, hey guys, I'm trying to, who's this? He says, hey, how you guys doing?

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And he walks past everybody and he goes into the kitchen, puts his stuff down, comes back in and hangs out and I'm like, who's this?

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And the girl says, hey, how you doing? They give each other a little kiss. They're not married. And you should have seen the look on these

01:12:29

Mormons' faces. They went from, that's compelling and amazing and that is powerful and awesome and wow, okay, yeah,

01:12:38

I'm gonna look into that, that's actually very intriguing. And all of a sudden, this happened in front of all of us and every single one of those

01:12:45

Mormons in the room looked over at me and went. It was an amazing experience and it crushed me.

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I went in awe, I was in tears. I wish I would have known that before I went there. And when the

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Mormons left, they heard it from me. I said, you cannot profess faith in Christ.

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You're gonna be doing this and talking to them. Get your life straight. You need to get this right before God, before you try ministering to these people because you are absolutely running my

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Savior's name through the mother. The Bible talks about that.

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God's name being blasphemed among the Gentiles because of the people who God's behaving. But we need to show them what the word of God says.

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Amen? Amen. Sorry to keep you so long. Let's pray briefly. Father, thank you so much for the opportunity to speak to my brothers and sisters.

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God, it has been a gift from you, from your hand to me to be able to, allow me to be here tonight to open your word and talk to your people.

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I just pray with all my heart, God, that we would not take what went out today and hide it in our hearts and not use it.

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I pray that you'd use this moment, God, to raise up people who lay their lives down in missionary sacrifice to the world and particularly to those in the cults.

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I pray, God, for fruit. I pray for you to draw your people out of darkness, bring your sheep out of the world.

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Save them, God, as a result of what happens here today to prepare us to minister to these people. Help us to love them, help us to genuinely love them, to care for them, give us boldness, give us the knowledge that we need to minister effectively, help us to honor you as we bring the truth to them,

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God. I pray that you'd bless us as we serve and I pray with all my heart that you destroy these cults.

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You destroy these cults with the power of your gospel. I pray, God, for the day that the Mormon church sinks into hell.

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I pray for the day, God, that Roman Catholicism sinks into hell. I pray for the day that Islam sinks into hell and that you've drawn those people to yourself.