March 22, 2023 Show with Josh Buice on “Why We Must Continue to Protest the Roman Catholic Church”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 22nd day of March, 2023.

And I am so pumped up about the upcoming G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia.

We're going to be talking a little bit about that today and letting you know about who's speaking there and the theme and so on.

And we have also to discuss that and a very important topic that everyone in this listening audience needs to hear, a topic why we must continue to protest the

Roman Catholic Church. We have here to discuss that a returning guest, one of my favorite guests, and a wonderful friend and brother in Christ, Josh Bice, who is pastor of Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia.

He's also founder and president of G3 Ministries. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Josh Bice.

Yeah, good to be with you, Chris. And first of all, let our listeners know about Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia.

Yeah, Chris, Praise Mill Baptist Church is a Reformed Baptist church on the west side of Atlanta. It's 181 years old.

I have the privilege of serving here as pastor, have been here for 13 years. I grew up in the life of the church with my wife.

We both grew up here as children, met in the life of the church, married, and then in God's providence, after I went away to study at the seminary and then pastored out of state for about seven years,

God in His kindness called me back here to serve my home church. And so it's been a joy and a privilege to be called to this task.

And if anybody wants to find out more about Praise Mill Baptist Church in Douglasville, Georgia, go to PraiseMill .com,

and that's P -R -A -Y -S -Mill .com. And as I was saying at the very beginning of the program,

I am so excited, as I always am, about the upcoming G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia.

I am not exaggerating. I'm not using hyperbole when I say that this event is always the highlight of my year.

I cannot even count the number of ways in which the Lord so thoroughly and richly blesses me every time

I am there in attendance manning my exhibitors booth for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I always, every single time, am approached by many people who tell me that they are so blessed and encouraged and edified and educated by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, people that I have never heard from before who approach me at my exhibitors booth.

And then I also meet for the first time face -to -face people who are regular listeners who do submit questions to our guests on a regular basis here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And I also get to interview some of the speakers and some of the listeners and even have made acquaintances that turned into friendships and even turned into advertisers on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio as a result.

So it's just an all -around blessing for me. And of course, last but not least, to be so edified by the powerful preachers that you always have on the roster, very long roster, just to give our listeners a summary because it would take me probably the rest of the program to list everybody who's speaking at this conference.

But we have Vody Baucom, Stephen Lawson, Paul Washer, Phil Johnson, James White, Mike Riccardi, Justin Peters, Ken Han, Owen Strand, James Coates, who you may recognize that name.

He was the pastor in Canada that made global news because he refused to shut down his church during the

COVID mandates in Canada. Scott Anuel, Virgil Walker, and Daryl Bernard Harrison of the

Just Thinking podcast, Scott Brown, Susan Heck, and more.

And I have interviewed most of the folks on this roster, and I have a few coming up to further promote the

G3 conference, including Susan Heck, who I've never interviewed before. But if you could continue to describe this wonderful conference.

Sure, Chris, yeah. So G3 conference started in 2013 as a theology conference on the west side of Atlanta here on the campus of Prismo Baptist Church.

It was a local church conference and was for the purpose of strengthening and encouraging local churches and pastors.

And what the Lord did with that event has really never ceased to amaze me, even to this very day.

I continue to see the work of G3, and it's astounding to me what God did in that first event.

But from there, basically, the church was at capacity year number one.

And we had a waiting list for about 30 days or so before the event, again, just because we lacked space.

And so what would end up happening would be that over the next four years, we would continue that process until we eventually moved to the convention center in 2017 for the

Reformation 500 conference. And it was there that we really began to grow astronomically.

We went from about 750 for those four years here at capacity at our local church campus to 2 ,517, 2 ,818.

We went to 4 ,619, 5 ,620, and 6 ,500 in 2021.

Now, I share those numbers with you not to boast or to brag or to suggest that it was something that I did personally, but because it really does amaze me.

And as I look back at this conference, I see that it was God's plan all along for God to raise up a ministry that would come alongside and encourage local churches.

And so now, G3 is more than just an annual conference. We have a ministry that exists for the strengthening of local churches and the encouragement of pastors.

And we have a network of churches that are basically 1689

Reformed Baptist churches that associate together, fellowship together, and seek to partner together in gospel ministry.

So it's been a privilege to watch the Lord build a team here and, of course, to continue to use this ministry.

And I'm certainly privileged to serve alongside this team as well. And this conference, this upcoming national conference, is being held

Thursday, September 21st through Saturday, September 23rd.

And it's on the theme, The Sovereignty of God. You can't think of a better theme than that.

Any way you'd care to elaborate on that? Sure. Yeah. I mean, again, as you've stated, the theme itself is going to be just a wonderful opportunity for us to unpack the grand truths of God's sovereignty over the course of about three days and to be able to have breakout sessions that are very much practical in nature as well as theologically rich.

But one of the things I would encourage people if they've been to a G3 before and they think, okay, well, we're six months out.

I typically register, you know, sometime about, you know, 30 days out or so. That's been pretty much a non -issue for the last number of years because we've had plenty of space at the convention center.

But right now, we have seen such an enormous spike in registrations that we're actually, in fact, the past two days,

Virgil Walker's been at the convention center trying to secure additional space.

We're literally running out of space. And so I would heavily encourage people if they're listening to this broadcast that they would register for G3's national conference as soon as possible to secure a place.

We're anticipating upwards of 8 ,000 or more people at this event, which is really unbelievable to me.

That is utterly amazing. But it's not unbelievable to me because of the fact that it's an extraordinary conference.

This is not a run -of -the -mill conference. And the roster is—you never have duds speaking at the conferences.

I've never been disappointed by anybody who has spoken at a G3 conference. And folks, I've got to get on your case a little bit here, those of you who are listening.

We are having a bit of a friendly competition as far as every media outlet that is promoting the

G3 conference. And I am ranking number seven out of 15 in the group of people or organizations or media outlets that are promoting

G3. And I want to move up to number one, but at least

I want to move up higher than number seven. I'm smack dab in the middle. At least

I can be comforted in knowing I've even beat out Sermon Audio, which is a pretty impressive task.

But please, folks, if you are registering at g3men .org, g3men .org,

use the promo code, the discount promo code G3ISIR. That is the

Iron Sharpens Iron radio promo code where you will get 30 percent off of the registration fee.

So please remember that, folks, and spread the word about it. That's G3ISIR.

And this is one of the reasons that this is an excellent theme.

It's ideal, I think, for bringing people with you, inviting people to join you.

You might even consider paying for their registration if they do not believe in the sovereignty of God.

The body of Christ is divided over these issues. So if you have Arminian evangelical friends or Roman Catholic friends or Eastern Orthodox friends,

I would strongly urge you to bring them there because the lineup of speakers, you're not going to get better as far as representatives of those who believe in these doctrines known as the doctrines of sovereign grace, also nicknamed reform theology and nicknamed

Calvinism. Not at all based on our hero of the faith,

John Calvin, but based on the scriptures. If you want to elaborate on that a little bit more,

Pastor Josh. Yeah, obviously, as you've stated, Chris, I mean, when we study the doctrine of God's sovereignty, we do want to put emphasis on the holistic view of what

God has done. And so we move beyond the realm of creation to the wonderful truths of sovereign grace.

And so as we think about the grace of God, we should, in fact, see it through the lens of God's sovereignty.

And so we're going to unpack that truth during this event. We're also going to be unpacking other aspects of God's sovereignty.

As I've stated already, the fact that God is the one who is responsible for all of creation and he sustains all of creation even now according to his power.

And so we're going to be looking at various aspects of God's sovereignty. But yes, you are correct that when we study salvation, the doctrine of salvation, we see that it does not begin with man and his freedom.

It begins with man and his bondage. And the spotlight is placed upon God who rescues individuals who are, you know, given over to sin and locked into the dark dungeon of human depravity.

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G3ISIR, standing for Iron, Sharp, and Zion Radio, G3ISIR, to get 30 % off the registration fee.

And you're going to be hearing that repeated throughout the program, including in commercials voiced by my friend

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries. Today we are discussing a topic that is near and dear to my heart.

I already announced it earlier, why we must continue to protest the Roman Catholic Church.

I am a former Roman Catholic. There are members of my family who remain in that false religious system.

I have been fully aware of the sad news that over the years it seems that Reformed Christians, especially those in academia, seem to be becoming softer and softer on their opposition to Roman Catholicism than when

I was first saved in the 1980s. I'm not saying that there weren't ecumenists with Rome in the ranks of Reformed Christianity then, but it seems to me that that is increasing in numbers, which is disturbing to me, especially since I know full well that the actual teachings that are dogmatic, the official teachings of the

Church of Rome on the gospel, on how we are to be made right with God, they are false and damning and they are lies.

I don't think that I am overstating the case or intentionally being cruel or nasty.

It just happens to be the truth. And in fact, you probably are aware of this,

Josh, for a decade on Long Island, I arranged debates between our mutual friend

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, a world -renowned Reformed Baptist apologist and Roman Catholic apologist.

Every year for a decade we had these on Long Island, and I'm looking forward to hopefully continuing that now that I'm here in Pennsylvania, reviving the

Great Debate Series, as it was called. And the reason for that, the reason

I had such a passion and a zeal to have these debates was because of the fact that we are living in a world where the feelings of others are more important than their never -dying souls.

And if you could pick up where I left off there, Josh. Yeah, absolutely, Chris. So as you've mentioned, there is a bit of a trend within professing evangelicalism of individuals who are going, quote -unquote, home to Rome.

And that's a massive concern for me. I mean, when you hear of individuals who quote various different Roman Catholics and they embrace them as trusted teachers, of course, what we must understand is that if you're not

Roman Catholic and you are a Christian, we can't conflate the two.

So what we must understand is that we can't treat Roman Catholicism as if it's like the difference between Baptist and Methodist, like it's another denomination within Christianity.

It's not. And a growing trend today, which I'm quite certain that many people listening to this conversation today have seen for themselves, is that people in the limelight or, you know, within the

Hollywood circles and even within the media circles are continuing to beat that drum of just calling

Catholics Christians. Now, obviously, we need to be able to differentiate when we talk about the creeds of church history and we talk about, you know, various different statements about the

Holy Catholic Church. Little c, Catholic, is a reference to the Universal Church.

It's not a reference to the Roman Catholic Church. And so when we see that, we need to be able to understand the difference.

But what we need to see is that Roman Catholicism is not Christianity. And if you look at the history of the

Reformation and you see what happened there, if you want to begin with the explosion of the

Reformation, say, around 1517 on October 31st with Luther's 95 feces, which is where many historians, you know, basically direct our attention.

Then what we see soon thereafter is that Luther becomes a Christian and he began protesting the

Roman Catholic Church and the preaching of the true gospel was central to Luther.

So he moved from this idea of just correcting the indulgences and the sale of indulgences, which is what he was calling out and questioning there by nailing the 95 feces to the castle church door in Wittenberg, which, by the way, was his form of social media to a degree.

He moved beyond that to an actual protest of the

Roman Catholic Church, understanding that it would not be an internal movement of correction.

It would be an external Reformation. And what happened, you know, with Luther and his ministry was that he was basically returning the people to the

Word of God and bringing the Bible to the people. He would be responsible for translating the

Bible into the German language after his defense of justification by faith alone at Worms in 1521.

And so as we look back historically, we see that there was a definitive line that was placed in the sand by Luther and the reformers stating that this is true

Christianity over here and the false church of Rome is over there.

And so we need to be able to differentiate between the two. And of course, you were using a comparison before saying that the difference between those of us who are theologically reformed

Protestants and Roman Catholics is far greater than the difference between us and Methodists.

Well, we have to be clear to identify which Methodists we're talking about because obviously a great host of Methodists are just as apostate as the church of Rome just for different reasons.

Absolutely, absolutely. But it's one thing to say this is a denomination that even historically has been seen as a denomination of true

Christians, whereas the Roman Catholic Church is certainly not to be seen or to be conflated with genuine

Christianity. And I know obviously you know the difference between the two, but it is good to clarify. Yes, and it bears repeating that we are not saying every single person who identifies as a

Roman Catholic is damned. There are people who are born again who actually believe in the true gospel, who put their total and complete trust on the finished work of Jesus Christ on Calvary alone for their salvation, who still for some reason or another continue to identify as Roman Catholic.

We're not talking about that. We're talking about those that are enslaved to a false religious system within Rome, both the false system that has been declared dogmatically at the

Council of Trent, which was a response to the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century, but also the deformed version, if you will, of Roman Catholicism that exists today, where you have the most left -wing pope in that religion's history who not only defies historic

Roman Catholic teaching, but obviously defies the scriptures as well. So you have a bizarre situation there when people wrongly think that because Roman Catholicism, even in their modern catechism, is much softer on Protestants than they used to be when they used to burn them alive.

It's much softer on Protestants, but the teachings of modern

Rome, even coming from the lips and writing of Pope Francis, are not dogma.

These are not things that must be believed by the faithful Roman Catholic. Am I making sense there,

Pastor Josh? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And to your point, you know, again, you referenced the

Council of Trent, which I think it would be important for us to talk about some of the statements of anathema that were, again, handed down there at the

Council of Trent. In fact, could you do that when we return from our first break? Because we've got to go to our first break right now.

Absolutely. Yeah, and we'll go into the anathemas, which are very important, and your average Roman Catholic doesn't even know anything about these anathemas, what they mean, and even those that are apologists seem to have redefined what those anathemas mean.

But if you have a question for Josh Bice, send it to chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you are a Roman Catholic and you are starting to question your beliefs, your long -held cherished beliefs, and you don't want to identify yourself publicly on this yet.

Well, I understand that. You want to remain anonymous. But whatever the reason, if it's personal and private, involves a loved one or what have you, we can understand you remaining anonymous.

But if it's just a general question, give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. We'll be right back after these messages, so don't go away.

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James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I have been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

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Pastor Josh Bice of Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia, and also founder and president of G3 Ministries, who is hosting the upcoming 2023

G3 National Conference. We are discussing why we must continue to protest the

Roman Catholic Church. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. Right before the break, Pastor Josh, you are about to enter into the discussion of the anathemas that were laid out dogmatically at the

Council of Trent. And perhaps you could even start with defining that, because in the 21st century, most of the modern

Roman Catholic apologists, even if they're very conservative, they do not want to give the idea, promote the idea, that the anathemas are intended to curse

Protestants to hell. They try to put a different friendly, warm, and fuzzy spin on it that it just means they can't be official members of the

Roman Catholic denomination if they believe in these things that are being anathematized.

But if you could shed some light on the reality here. Yeah, I think it would be good to give some biblical context.

I mean, if you look at Galatians 1, you see where Paul is warning the church of the invasion of heresy and heretical teaching there in Galatia.

And he says in the opening words in chapter 1 that if anyone comes preaching any other gospel than that which he has preached unto the church, then let that one, even if it be an angel from heaven, he says, let that one be anathematized or anathema.

And so the actual term there means to be damned to hell. Now, again, to go back to the historical context that we were discussing earlier with the

Reformation with Luther and the Reformers when they were basically making a firm distinction between Christianity and the

Roman Catholic Church, there was a response to the bold Reformation. And again, the

Reformation, we call ourselves Protestants, Chris, and what that means is that we are protesting something.

We are standing against the perversion of the gospel. And as we consider that, we again see that historically the

Roman Catholic Church, they provided their own protest against the Reformation at the

Council of Trent in the 1500s. And that council still to this very day has basically the official teachings on justification by the

Roman Catholic Church, and they offered up some 33 different canons and statements of anathema there just under the doctrine of justification.

So again, the Christians, the Protestants, were suggesting that the

Bible teaches that we are justified by faith alone and Christ alone for the remission of sins, and that the

Roman Catholic Church teaches a false view of the gospel that we actually cooperate with Jesus through works, which basically earns our salvation.

And so in the Reformation, there were five solas that were statements that sort of gave way to an explanation of historic

Christianity, and one of those is sola fide, which means that we are saved by faith alone in Christ alone.

So that's how we receive our salvation. That's how we are justified. And so the

Roman Catholic Church says, no, that's not the case. In fact, at the

Council of Trent, under the heading of justification, Canon 9 of the 33 canons, these statements stated the following.

I'm just going to read it here. It says, quote, If anyone saith that by faith alone the impious is justified, in such wise as to mean that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to the obtaining the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will, let him be anathema.

Now, end quote. So to your question, Chris, here's the point.

Modern Roman Catholics may try to water down the statement of anathema to mean, well, it just means that you're excommunicated from the

Roman Catholic Church. But if you understand the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, if you're outside of, quote, unquote, the church, which is always in reference to the

Roman Catholic Church, then you're damned. So basically what they're stating is if you believe in sola fide, we are excommunicating you from the

Roman Catholic Church, and as a result of that, you're damned. So again, it does mean what it means, and to try to suggest otherwise would be foolish.

You connect it all the way to Galatians 1, and historically, what does anathema mean?

So basically the Roman Catholic Church is stating that they are damning everyone outside of the church because they refuse to embrace the false gospel of the

Roman Catholic Church. Amen. And one thing we have to make clear, because I've had conversations with Roman Catholics who when we are trying to hash out what one another believe about how man is made right with God, I have had

Roman Catholics say that they agree with me when

I say that good works, good deeds, are only the evidence and the fruit of saving faith.

They in no way cooperate with saving faith to justify or save a sinner.

There is no merit in them. There is nothing that a human can possibly do to merit the favor of God.

They're just evidences that you are truly saved, as even James spells out in his epistle that faith without works is dead.

So these are signs of a living faith. And I've had Roman Catholics actually say, well, I agree with that.

And I say, well, your church doesn't. Some Catholics seem to be confused about this.

They don't even really understand that the anathemas of Trent are making it clear that the deeds of humans cooperate with the finished work of Christ on Calvary in order to save them.

Am I right? Absolutely, you're right. And see, that goes back to the point you made earlier that we're not suggesting that anyone who is a

Roman Catholic is just as a result of them being Roman Catholic or maybe they grew up a

Roman Catholic, that we're suggesting that they're damned. No, we're suggesting that if you reject the gospel of Jesus, that you are indeed outside of Christ and you're outside of the grace of God.

So if you truly believe what the Roman Catholic Church teaches and believes officially, then, again, you are not a

Christian. But if you claim to believe the true gospel and you just grew up as a Roman Catholic and maybe your grandfather taught you that you were born a

Catholic and you're always going to be a Catholic and you're going to die a Catholic, well, you don't have to.

You can actually leave the Roman Catholic Church and join a true church of Jesus and you can, again, serve the

Lord with a pure heart, embracing the true gospel of Jesus as taught in the scriptures.

But, again, to your point, the official doctrinal statements that's revealed to us clearly in the catechism of the

Roman Catholic Church as well as emphasized and intensified at the Council of Trent is another gospel.

In fact, even though they wouldn't word it exactly this way, according to the modern catechism, and, of course, this would even be a departure from the

Council of Trent, but works seem to be even more important than belief in Christ because in the modern catechism you have the opportunity and the hope that Jews and Muslims and people of other false religions can be saved, and they're really basing this on how these people live according to the light they have.

I mean, it's really making the deeds of these people more important, isn't it? Oh, absolutely it is.

In fact, as we stated from the very beginning of the conversation today, that the Roman Catholic Church's system itself is a works -based system.

So if you just read the catechism and you look at various paragraphs, you can see works is just interwoven through the entire thing.

For instance, in one place in the catechism it states justification has been merited to us by the passion of Christ, and it's granted to us through baptism.

And then it's at baptism where we are conformed to the righteousness of God.

So again, that's a flat denial, not only of justification by faith alone and Christ alone, but it's a denial of the imputation of righteousness that we receive by faith.

And so it's not that we are being conformed to righteousness. No, we receive an alien righteousness, which is the language that Luther would use in his defense of the gospel.

It's a righteousness that's outside of us that comes to us from God, but it's imputed to us.

It's credited to our account by faith in the finished work of Christ.

And so it's not at baptism that we receive this justification. It's when we come to faith in Christ.

And so again, if you put your faith in your act or obedience of baptism, that's a works -based system, any way you slice it.

And that's really par for course all the way through the Roman Catholic catechism. And one thing that I remember, a classic scene from one of Dr.

James R. White's debates that I arranged on Long Island, New York. One of these debates was with a very nice man, a man that I enjoyed sharing company with, sharing meals with,

Mitch Pacwa, who is a Jesuit priest and Roman Catholic apologist. During the debate that he had with James, he was trying to make

James basically look like the bad guy because he viewed James as his brother in Christ, whereas James did not return the favor, as it were.

And Mitch Pacwa said, what do you think that the

Roman Catholic Church means by their anathemas? And James said, well, if you look at what the

Apostle Paul meant in the book of Galatians, that word that is used there means that they are damned to hell, those that have a false gospel.

And then Mitch said, yes, but what does the Roman Catholic Church mean by it? And James said, well, if you have a different definition of the

Apostle Paul, you've got a big problem on your hands. So anyway, we have a listener question.

I'll probably read the question and have you respond to it when we return because it's fairly long.

But a very faithful listener in the Iron Trip and Zion Radio audience,

Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina, who I actually had the privilege of meeting at a

G3 conference for the first time. He had been writing questions to Iron Trip and Zion Radio going back to its inception in 2005, and I'd never before met him until we met at the

G3 conference and we have developed, by the grace and mercy of God, a wonderful friendship.

But Grady says, greetings, brothers. I was disappointed when Chuck Colson and others formed the organization

Evangelicals and Catholics Together. If I remember correctly, one of the rules of this organization was that the evangelical faction could not share the gospel with the

Catholics. I've also been told that when trying to reach those at abortion clinics, that the

Catholics there get offended if evangelicals share the gospel. This should make it clear that we serve a different Lord and have a different gospel.

Why do some Christians not see that they do not serve our Lord and King Jesus Christ?

By the way, the G3 app is a great app, and we'll have you respond to that when we return from our midway break.

Keep in mind, folks, please be patient with us because the midway break is always a bit longer than the other breaks during the program because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, who airs this program in a pre -recorded fashion twice a day, in morning drive and in the evening, they are required by the

FCC to air their own public service announcements and other local things that localize

Zion Trump and Zion Radio geographically to Lake City, Florida. While they do that, we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

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We cannot exist without our advertisers' financial support, folks. So please, whenever you can, purchase their products, use their services, support their parachurch organizations, and visit their churches.

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That will help go a long way in convincing our advertisers that their money is well spent and that people are benefiting greatly from this program, that they are helping to keep in existence with their financial support.

So respond to our advertisers and also send in your questions to Josh Bice about our topic today, why we must continue protesting the

Roman Catholic Church. Send those emails to ChrisArnson at gmail .com. ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

We'll be right back with Josh Bice. Don't go away. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd, on a theme that I have been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

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Before I return to our guest today, Pastor Josh Bice of Praise Middle Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia, and founder and president of G3 Ministries as we continue discussing why we must continue to protest the

Roman Catholic Church. Before we return to that, I have a couple of very important announcements to make. If you really love this show, folks, and you don't want it to go off the air, you don't want it to disappear, go to ironsharpensironradio .com,

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They will be the speakers, and everything is free of charge. Not only are you going to be feasting on physical food and spiritual food and sharing fellowship with your colleagues in ministry, absolutely free of charge.

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Bible conference. The theme is The Gospel, Removed by Rome, Rescued by the

Reformers, and Rejected by Modern Evangelicals. That's Thursday, the 14th of April through Sunday—I'm sorry,

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Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Harrisburg. If you want to register for these free events, just send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put either luncheon or conference or both in the subject line.

Last but not least, if you are not a member of a Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, theologically solid church like Praise Middle Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia, I have extensive lists of biblically faithful churches spanning the globe, and I've helped many people in our audience all over the world find churches, sometimes even within just a couple of minutes from where they live.

And if you are without a church home, I may be able to help you too. Just send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Pastor Josh Bice of Praise Middle Baptist Church and G3 Ministries.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

And as you may recall, before the break, Pastor Josh, we had

Grady from Asheboro, North Carolina send in a question revealing his dismay over the

Evangelicals and Catholics Together organization and document that basically was an agreement that Evangelicals and Roman Catholics would not proselytize each other, they would not try to convert one another because after all, in Colson's and the signers' minds, we're brothers in Christ already.

We don't need to do that. And Grady also shared his dismay that Catholics' abortion protests are offended when

Evangelicals evangelize them, and Grady is making the statement that he believes that makes it clear that we serve a different Lord and have a different gospel.

Why do some Christians not see that they do not serve our Lord and King Jesus Christ? And if you could respond to that.

That's a great question. The Evangelicals and Catholics Together ecumenical statement back in 1994 was an utter tragedy.

It was a disaster. In fact, I had the privilege to sit down for an interview with John MacArthur a number of years back.

You can find that on the G3 Ministries YouTube page, the playlist for the podcast.

But we talked about this very thing. In fact, as MacArthur stated, R .C.

Sproul and James Kennedy were coming down to meet with a group of others about the doctrine of justification, and the question really is, what is the gospel?

And so as they got together for this meeting, it was Sproul and Kennedy and MacArthur really on one side of the fence, and it was

Bill Bright of Campus Crusade, J .I. Packer, and Charles Colson on the other side.

And basically that central question, what is the gospel and what must you believe to be saved, was really at the heart of a seven -hour debate in 1994.

And so basically the issue was so heated that at one point, as MacArthur stated to me in the interview as we discussed it, that Sproul climbed onto the table and with great passion says,

I don't think that you get it. This is about whether you're a Christian or not. And so he was extremely concerned that this was a perversion of the gospel.

Later in the day, as the seven -hour debate went on, John MacArthur was seated next to J .I.

Packer, and basically MacArthur asked a final concluding question, and he wanted to know this.

At what point do you come to a place where you believe enough of justification historically taught in the

Scriptures to be saved? And Packer didn't have an answer to it.

He said, I don't know. And so John MacArthur as well as R .C.

Sproul and James Kennedy saw that as a massive problem. And so, yeah, the evangelicals and Catholics together statement was massively confusing because, once again, we should never conflate the idea of genuine

Christianity and Roman Catholicism. It's not the same thing. So the idea that we should just agree that we're brothers and sisters in Christ and that we should not be evangelizing

Roman Catholics would be against the very command of Christ, who tells us to go and to make disciples of all nations, and we should do that, again, preaching the gospel to those who have a different gospel.

That's what we see happening with the Apostle Paul in the New Testament as well. So to Grady's point, that when you're out in an abortion mill and you're evangelizing and the

Roman Catholics are becoming offended by the way that you're explaining and preaching the gospel, that is indicative of the reality that we definitely have a different gospel than the

Roman Catholic Church, and a different Jesus, by the way. And so we should be very clear about this.

Yes, and that actually, that meeting that you were just describing, sparked an excellent episode of the

John Ankerberg Show. It may have been more than one episode, where you had John MacArthur, R .C.

Sproul, and D. James Kennedy being very detailed and vividly clear about why

Christians should oppose that document that was getting a lot of publicity at that time in the 1990s.

I don't know if that's still available at the John Ankerberg website, but if you want to try to look that up, it may be available.

I'm just not aware if it is or not. By the way, can you watch or hear what you just described, this debate that took place between Bright and Colson and the other signers of the

ECT document? No, not to my knowledge. Again, that was a private meeting that was held there with Sproul, D.

James Kennedy, John MacArthur, Bill Bright, J .I. Packer, and Charles Colson. There was a couple of moderators that were there to basically keep things on track, but to my knowledge, there's no audio or video of that meeting.

But John MacArthur, again, has recounted that on a couple of occasions.

In fact, in the interview that I mentioned that I did with him a couple of years ago, but also if you go and you watch the memorial service of R .C.

Sproul, when MacArthur spoke there, he also referenced that meeting as well.

So it's something that he's talked about on several occasions historically.

But as we think about the subject that's before us with the Roman Catholic Church and their official teachings, it should be noted that here recently there's been some news as the pope has gone on record as denying the existence of hell.

And I find this very concerning for several reasons, obviously.

But if you look at what the Roman Catholic Church teaches about hell officially, not only does the pope contradict the official positions of the

Roman Catholic Church, but the pope most importantly contradicts the pure teachings of Scripture.

But if you go back to March of 2018, Pope Francis was speaking to an atheist, and the atheist basically asked him a question.

He says, what happens to bad souls, quote -unquote bad souls? And the pope actually denied in that conversation the existence of hell.

Now, the interesting thing is that when this hit the news in 2018, the

Vatican responded and said, well, that wasn't an official interview. That was the pope just interacting with a friend of his who happened to be an atheist.

And so you shouldn't see it as an official statement of the pope or an official position of the

Roman Catholic Church. But here we are in March, the same month, a few years later in 2023, and the pope has just passed his 10th year anniversary.

And so he's conducted a few interviews in the process to commemorate his 10th anniversary as the pope.

And in one of the interviews, he was asked this question. What is your own interpretation of hell and paradise?

And what happens to people who go to hell? And what happens to those who go to paradise?

And it was at that moment that we see the pope respond.

And he said hell is not a place. And he goes on to suggest that if one goes to attend the last judgment and sees the faces of those who go to hell, one gets scared.

And then he says, if you read Dante, you get scared. But these are media representations, end quote.

So basically, he goes on record as suggesting that hell is not a real literal place that the damned go to where they suffer under the wrath of God.

I find this to be massively problematic. And again, we should see this as completely inconsistent with the word of God.

But if you just read the scriptures, Chris, what we see is that Jesus, in his earthly ministry, said more about hell and warned more about the wrath of God than any other figure in the whole of scripture.

And it is explicitly clear that hell is a real place where there's eternal torment and where those who are outside of the grace of God are judged under the just judgment and the justice of God's wrath.

So again, once again, we're seeing massive contradictions with what the leader of the

Roman Catholic Church, the Pope himself, says that violates

Holy Scripture on the doctrine of God's judgment. And so massively problematic.

We talked in the first half of the show about the false teachings of Trent and the false teachings regarding a false gospel of the

Roman Catholic Church. Now we have the Pope denying the true teachings of scripture regarding hell.

And so this is a massive problem. Yes. I have, throughout my life as a

Christian, I have begun to learn more about Roman Catholicism than I did when

I was a Roman Catholic. In fact, it might interest you to know that one of the things that began to collapse the

Roman Catholic house of cards in my mind as a young man, approaching my confirmation in the

Catholic Church, was when we had an opportunity to sit as a class with the parish priest, a very nice guy,

Father McNamara. Are you there, Josh? I just heard a weird noise.

Oh, I'm here, yes. One of the questions that I asked, because we were able to ask

Father McNamara anything that we wanted to before we were confirmed, I said,

Is heaven a real place or a state of mind? And he said, It's a state of mind.

And that shattered me. And it made me realize, these people don't know what they're talking about.

And unfortunately, it would take over a decade after that before I actually came to embrace the scriptures and the biblical gospel.

But I had basically drifted away from Catholicism after that and wound up rarely attending services there, which obviously is a good thing in one sense, but I would be living a life of rebellion and alcoholism and so on.

But it was very disillusioning to hear that answer. And of course, that is not a dogmatic answer of what the

Church of Rome teaches. It's just a priest's personal opinion.

But this is where it gets very difficult when you're having conversations with Roman Catholics, because,

I don't know about you, I prefer having a conversation with a

Roman Catholic who is knowledgeable about Catholic dogma, who is historically knowledgeable about the

Roman Catholic Church, and who realizes there is a chasm of difference between Roman Catholicism and evangelical

Bible -believing Protestantism. I would rather have a conversation with those folks than a warm, cuddly

Roman Catholic who is more concerned about ecumenism and being friendly and enjoying interreligious activities than he is about truth.

Do you share that opinion with me? It can be very frustrating having conversations with the latter because you don't even have any kind of bedrock in which you can determine what the actual truthful differences are between us.

Yeah, absolutely. If you have someone that is fully committed to the teachings and the doctrines of the

Roman Catholic Church, it's much easier to have a conversation because you're going to be rooted in the actual teachings as opposed to someone who's just what we might call a nominal

Catholic, just was born a Catholic, their parents told them that they were Catholics and they claim to be

Catholics. Well, they probably have little to no clue as to what the

Roman Catholic Church actually teaches. But as we think about the statement here about hell regarding the

Pope, you have what the

Roman Catholic Church actually teaches about the doctrine of hell over against what the Pope is actually stating about hell, and that's massively problematic.

In the statement in the interview when he was pressed about this very doctrine, he pointed everyone to a famous sculpture in a

Catholic cathedral, and he described it as a sculpture that has

Judas hanging in balance and the devil is pulling him downward.

And then on the other side, they have the Good Shepherd and Jesus is grabbing

Judas and he puts him on his shoulders with a big smile.

And so then they asked, they said that basically they wanted to know what that meant.

So they asked, what does this mean? And so the Pope then responded and he said this. He said, quote, that salvation is stronger than damnation.

And then he says, basically, that's what this sculpture means.

And so basically he's stating that hell is a state of the heart or a state of the soul, as you were referencing earlier, and that basically it's not a genuine place, and it means that salvation is stronger than damnation, that Jesus is stronger than the devil.

Well, again, this is so problematic on so many different levels because obviously we recognize, as Luther said, that the devil is

God's devil and that hell is actually created by God, and Jesus himself has the keys to hell.

He has – he's king, right? And so when you read the

Bible and you see what the Bible actually teaches about the judgment of God and the just wrath of God, the

Pope's statements do not line up with Scripture in the slightest degree. And so, again, as you mentioned at the front side of this conversation today,

Chris, this Pope is so left of where the Roman Catholic Church has stood historically.

If you're just looking at what the Roman Catholics actually believe, that he does not represent historic

Roman Catholic doctrine and dogma. And so he's problematic on many different levels.

He's woke. I mean, there's all sorts of problems with him. But we as Christians must defend the doctrine of hell.

We can't allow for people to redefine hell or rethink hell or turn it into some sort of state of mind or state of consciousness or what have you.

It's an actual literal place, and Jesus taught this, and we need to teach what Jesus taught and believe what

Jesus himself taught. Yeah, Jesus himself taught that Judas is in hell because he said it would have been better for him if he were never born.

Obviously, if Judas is in heaven, that statement would be false because he would be enjoying the indescribable and infinite joy of being in the presence of his

Savior. But Jesus said that it would have been better for him if he was never born. Obviously, that statement can only be made about somebody who is in hell.

Yep, absolutely. We have in Luke 16, we have a parable, again, that describes the great chasm.

And again, you see that the rich man is in the actual flames of hell and the judgment of God.

In Matthew 25, Jesus talks about the sheep and the goats and that the goats are actually going to be banished into eternal fire.

You see the language of the unquenchable fire of hell in Mark 9. Again, you see this language of people gnashing their teeth in anguish,

Matthew 13. And again, so you just see on and on and on again, language from Jesus in his earthly ministry where he is warning that there is an actual literal place where people go.

And hell is not some place that's temporal, but it's eternal, just as heaven itself is eternal.

Just as the kingdom of God is eternal, so is hell. And so we need to be very clear about the doctrine of hell.

We can't wiggle or move away from the teachings of Jesus in the slightest degree on this doctrine.

We have an anonymous listener who says, I know several people who have said this to me, but one in particular is a friend.

And this individual said that they believe in the biblical gospel that evangelical

Protestants firmly believe in. But he chooses to remain in the

Roman Catholic Church because he wants to be there to help make a change.

What can I say to this person in response to this? Is this in any way a legitimate option for a

Bible -believing Christian? Well, I would encourage them to not stay and try to make a change internally because you're lending credibility to a false church and a false religion that teaches a false gospel that leads to a real hell.

And so I would encourage anyone who believes the true gospel to separate from the blasphemy of the

Roman Catholic Church. However, that doesn't mean that just because you separate from the blasphemy of the

Roman Catholic Church and you join a true church, that you can't still make a difference in the lives of your friends.

You can. You have their phone number, their email. You know their address. You can send them information in the mail.

You can take them out for a meal. You can invite them into your home. There are various ways to evangelize without lending credibility to a false gospel in the process.

Yes, and if they are remaining in fellowship and in worship at Roman Catholic masses, they are participating in a deeply heretical and damning ritual.

And this is something that evangelicals really have to have sink in their head.

I have been at Roman Catholic weddings and funerals where they have a mass.

They don't always have a mass at those events, but sometimes people choose, if they are

Roman Catholic, to have a mass celebrated at a wedding and a funeral.

And I have seen evangelicals get up, go forward, and take the

Eucharist. Number one, the Roman Catholic Church doesn't even want you to do that if you don't believe in transubstantiation and have shared their view of what is occurring at this ritual.

But there is a chasm of difference between a biblical and evangelical understanding of the

Lord's Supper than going forward and receiving the so -called mass. I have had people say to me,

Well, I have something different going on in my mind. But that's no excuse, is it? No, it's not.

In fact, I have done the same thing, Chris. I have been at a Roman Catholic mass where I was the only individual in the room who did not get up, and every eye was upon me in the process.

But again, we have to see exactly what you stated, that the doctrine of the

Roman Catholic Church and transubstantiation teaches that there is a fresh sacrifice of Jesus, His body and blood, there on that table.

And it would be utterly blasphemous in a contradiction to the gospel of Jesus to be partakers in that.

So suggesting that you can stay and partake in blasphemous false gospel teaching and this false sacrifice of Jesus, afresh and anew in every mass in order to evangelize your friends is certainly not even an option for a true

Christian. So I would just urge anyone who's a true

Christian that has come to the knowledge of Christ and has been truly saved by the gospel of Jesus to separate from the

Roman Catholic Church. Amen. And we're going to our final break. It's going to be a lot shorter than all the other breaks.

If you have a question that you'd like to send in to Pastor Josh Peiss, send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be back with Josh Peiss after these messages.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel and Josh Peiss, founder of G3 Ministries.

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Chris Arnson, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd for the

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James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know

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Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland, who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai, in County Kildare, Ireland.

Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely to thank, since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

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Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

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Call 717 -258 -4688 today. Hello, my name is

Anthony Uvinio, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corum, New York, and also the host of the

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Subscribe to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio podcast right now. And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the

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Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invinio, and thanks for listening. If you love

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One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnton is doing is

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. Getting a driver's license.

Running a cash register. Flipping burgers. Passing 6th grade. Do you know what they all have in common?

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Please visit us at truthloveparent .com And A .M. Brewster is going to be our guest on Friday on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

We're doing a rare open forum kind of a format where you can ask him any question that you want regarding biblical counseling.

So send in your questions early to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put in the subject line,

Aaron Brewster's interview. Pastor Josh, I want to make something clear to our audience and I think that you would, in fact,

I know you would agree with me wholeheartedly. I'm going to do so by starting with a quote by the late

R .C. Sproul. And I'm quoting this because there are people when they hear us speak this way, and I know that I have had

Roman Catholic friends and loved ones respond to me with the statement or the accusation that I'm being cold -hearted, mean, or arrogant and boastful as if my saying that we are not brothers in Christ or saying that I have received and embraced the true gospel, that I am claiming some kind of innate superiority over them.

And I think R .C. Sproul said it beautifully when he said, Christians have nothing to be smug about.

We are not righteous people trying to correct the unrighteous. As one preacher said, evangelism is just one beggar telling another beggar where to find bread.

The chief difference between the believer and the unbeliever is forgiveness. Wouldn't you agree with Dr.

Sproul? And isn't it important that we make our Roman Catholic friends, loved ones, and acquaintances aware that we are not saying that we are innately superior human beings to them?

Because on a human understanding of goodness and who is a better husband, better wife, better sibling, better child, better boss, better employee, better citizen, very often

Roman Catholics do put us to shame, and we have to admit that. But that has nothing to do with what we're talking about, is it?

Yeah, that's exactly right, Chris. In fact, if you study genuine Christianity, what you come to see is, and basically you come to a sobering position that states that we are unrighteous in and of ourselves.

We are to be, in fact, as a Reformed Christian, I would suggest that it should lead us to great humility to see that we were wretched worms deserving the wrath of God eternally.

And it was by no good deeds in ourselves or worth or value that caused

God to look down upon us in mercy and extend grace to us.

No, no, it was not our own choice that worked alongside the passion of Christ. It was nothing that we did.

It was not by works of righteousness that we did, according to Titus. But it was actually based upon the grace of God alone.

And so, again, I think, to your point, as we discuss the difference between the

Roman Catholic Church and genuine Christianity, it should lead genuine

Christians to a place of great humility where we come to see that it is only by the grace of God alone that we are in Christ.

If left to ourselves, we would still be running away from God. So a proud

Christian is a great contradiction to biblical Christianity. And if you could,

Josh, just summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today, perhaps especially Roman Catholic listeners.

Yeah, I would just urge anyone who's listening to this conversation today, Chris, to embrace the true gospel, that man has sinned against God, and we deserve the wrath of God because of our sin.

And if we get what we deserve, we receive the wrath of God, and rightly so.

But it is only in Christ and His finished work alone that a person can be saved.

And so I would just point everyone to Christ, that we come to Him with empty hands.

We don't come to Him with one hand that is holding on to the cross and another hand that's holding on to our works.

We come to Christ with empty hands, completely trusting in His finished work on our behalf for the remission of sins, believing that Christ died in our place as a substitute, and it was

His sacrifice alone that is offered up to God and is received on our behalf.

And that after being put to death on the cross, He was buried in a borrowed tomb and resurrected on the third day.

And any and all who come to Him by faith will be saved. And so I would just point people to the true gospel of grace in Christ for salvation.

Amen. And don't forget, folks, the G3 Conference this year is being held

Thursday, September 21st, through Saturday the 23rd in Atlanta, Georgia, on the theme,

The Sovereignty of God. For more details, go to g3min .org. g3min .org.

And if you're registering, please remember to use promo code G3ISIR. That's G3ISIR, and you'll get 30 % off the registration fee.

Also, folks, don't forget about the Iron Truckman's Iron Radio Free Pastor's Luncheon on Thursday, April 13th at Church of the

Living Christ in Loysville, Pennsylvania, where Dr. William Webster, a

Banner of Truth author, and Rev. David T. King, one of Dr. Webster's co -authors, will be speaking.

Everything is free of charge. Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com if you'd like to register for this free event.

And then don't forget about the three -day free Bible conference being held at a different church, Grace Bible Fellowship Church, in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, also featuring

Dr. Webster and Rev. King. And there's a big difference. The first event, the Pastor's Luncheon, is only for men in ministry leadership.

The three -day Bible conference is for everyone, men, women, and children. So if you would like to attend the conference, also send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put conference in the subject line. I want to thank you so much, Pastor Josh, for being such an extraordinary guest, as you always prove to be.

I want to thank everybody who listened. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater