Calvin/Servetus Affair

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United States. It's one eight, seven Seven seven five three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James wife Hi, good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon, it's starting it towards summer here in Phoenix, Arizona and That is inevitable.

I suppose I'm glad that nature is regular and We're slowly tilting that direction and it's warming up here in Phoenix We continue with our examination of some of the claims of Dan Barker in the last program

I sort of finished up really quickly at the end with about a four minute run through some of the issues that Dan Barker forgets to mention when

Discussing the subject of John Calvin, but I knew there was a second section of his of his exchange with Doug Wilson I wanted to play first Because I think

I find it quite interesting. So let's let's listen to after the opening statements and The rebuttals then there was some cross -examination and here's what

Dan Barker had to say later on after That presentation we heard last time about John Calvin Doug.

Okay, so we heard about John Calvin Burning a man to death

Who committed no crime who violated no law in that city or in that area who broke no scriptural law

Who simply disagreed with John Calvin's authority? He was burned to death Along with his book.

So I want to ask you was John Calvin a good man John Calvin was a good man.

Not a perfect man. Not a sinless man, but he was a good man. Yes Okay, well you heard a man who whose vanity and ego is so offended because someone disagreed with him publicly burns him at the stake a

Truly good man like Michael Cervantes who did exactly What John Calvin himself did by dissenting from the church

Demos has the right to kill anybody he wants Well you I'm not arguing for Demos as a god by the way

You misconstrued my argument, but the people of Europe had the right to kill Servetus if they wanted So John Calvin the murderer

No was a good man according to the people of Europe Lutherans Roman Catholics and it was

John Calvin's decision his vanity was offended Okay, let's stop there because there's just so many errors to address that eventually you start stop, you know

Start losing track of all of them I don't you know, I would assume That Dan Barker is reading some bad material on the subject of John Calvin He's probably reading atheist material

I know looking at his book godless looking at the section where he attempts to present contradictions

They really do reflect the worst that Prometheus puts out. Let's put it that way and if you aren't going to engage in meaningful biblical exegesis in the assertions of your of your contradictions

That's not overly surprising that you would not do much in the way of history Many people hear about Michael Servetus as the chief argument against John Calvin I would simply like to suggest to you that if Servetus is an argument for rejecting

John Calvin as a good man Then Servetus is an argument for rejecting that almost anyone alive

In 1553 was a good man and what I mean by that is that the governments that existed in Europe in 1553 were absolutely united in Their condemnation of Miguel Servetus.

In fact, I don't believe that you would find Servetus arguing for freedom of religion

In fact, he was arguing in his restitutio the book that came out in January of 1553

Which was a direct shot at the institutio the Institutes of John Calvin That it was his view that should be adopted

Yes Calvin in a sense laid the seed that would grow into the concept of freedom of religion

But it was not something that had yet come into any type of maturity at all

In fact, you could say its growth had only just begun with the Anabaptists and the

Radical Reformation which at that time was in great disrepute because of what happened at Munster and so when we think about what happened with Servetus Barker tries to present it as if this was something that Calvin did

What he does not tell you is twofold. Let's first start with his

His Calvin's history with Servetus he describes him as friends Calvin never described

Servetus as his friend and neither would Servetus have described Calvin as his friend. That's just simply inaccurate

Instead you have two men who were contemporaries born within about a year of each other and yet Both very brilliant.

I think Servetus saw in Calvin An Intellect equal to his own

Servetus was a brilliant man, but he was not a balanced man at all He was truly all over the place

As far as the things that he studied he's been credited with describing the circulatory system

Though I've never really tracked down exactly where that comes from as to whether that's really accurate or not, but he studied astrology

He studied a wide variety of things At various points in his life and in fact just prior to 1553

After an extensive attempted correspondence on his part is very interesting in the middle 1540s

He sent as many as 30 letters to Calvin Calvin simply refused to talk to him

I he reminds me a little bit of somebody who's constantly sending me letters and Either who is a little bit on the imbalanced side, but Calvin would not respond to him.

He The man was was not a nice person. I don't know where Barker gets this wonderful truthful kind man

Michael Servetus What really needs to be understood is that early on in shortly after Calvin's conversion

He was prevailed upon to meet with Michael Servetus In an attempt as Calvin put it to win him to the

Lord already Servetus's heresies were well known even though he had not his books were not nearly as well known as they would be later on but His heresies were well known especially in the

Doctrine of the Trinity and at that time in Europe if you were a non

Trinitarian you were a glowing heretic and That was considered a crime against the state

That was the case under Rome that was the case under the Magisterial Reformation and Calvin risked his life to meet with Michael Servetus and Servetus never showed

So Calvin risked his life and Servetus didn't show up so Immediately if you risked your life to meet with someone on To try to talk to them on theological issues, and they never showed up I Don't know about you

But I would probably be somewhat hesitant in the future to really put out a whole lot of effort to communicate with this particular individual then

Starting around as I recall 1545 Servetus at this time living under the name of Michael Villanueva because his own name would have had him arrested by the

Inquisition Who was personal doctor to the archbishop in a city in France Began corresponding with Calvin and Calvin immediately knew who it was even though it was

Michael Villanueva. He knew that this was Servetus and Again Calvin he approached

Calvin as people always do we We've gotten used to this in our IRC chat channel people will come in and I just have a few questions

Yeah, okay. You have to be careful because sometimes people do just have a few questions

But in the vast majority of instances where someone's coming in which we call them a lamer Someone who's actually coming in to just start a fight or try to draw people off or find some some disciples for themselves

Whatever it might be they love to come in and I just I just have some questions And of course, what are those questions?

What are those questions? They are objections Disguised as questions and This is how

Servetus approached Calvin well, Calvin took the time to respond and Servetus's responses would always be nasty

Calvin even took the time to send him a copy of the Institute's the Christian religion which Servetus sent back with what we might call nasty grams written in the margins and I wanted to give you an example of some of these nasty grams.

Remember this is Eight years prior to him showing up in in Geneva Here's here's one of the

The things that Servetus writes to Calvin during this period of time. I have often told you that that triad of Impossible monstrosities that you admit in God is not proved by any scriptures properly understood or later on This shows that your knowledge is ridiculous say nay a magical enchantment and a lying justification and so on so much that even

Bolshevik described Servetus as a man known for arrogance and insolence and so after the the first he also by the way sent to Calvin a manuscript of his upcoming book

That he was working on which again is denial of the Doctrine the Trinity and various the sundry other issues along with it and Calvin refused to return it.

He'd in fact after the about the second letter. He sent to him just refused to have anything do them all

He wrote over 30 letters to Calvin and Calvin just said not doing anything not responding this man in any way shape or form and after that Servetus basically started focusing upon End times he was the herald camping of his day

He actually came up with a date Folks there's been how Lindsay was a latecomer.

Let me assure you How Lindsay was latecomer in fact let me let me again see if I can get you the specific dates here

You do to do to do What was the dates he had come up with I saw them here just a few moments ago as somewhere between 15

Why can't I find it I should have marked it, but I didn't want to mark this book up This is called dead air, which is not a good thing to do.

This is why Rush you know keeps talking at this point in time

It is somewhere between like 1555 and 1585 as I recall was the the time period he came up with that's when

It was all supposed to be wrapped up So in other words he was I mean that was right around the corner So the

Jehovah's Witnesses and everybody else that they're they're latecomers people have been doing this for a long long time So he really wasn't focused on that kind of thing for a while, but then something happened in in 1553

Remember I forgot something here Remember that Calvin knew where Michael Villanueva was he knew where Servetus was

He knew the the pseudonym he was using and He could have turned that information over to the

Roman Catholics, but he didn't He could have betrayed him, but he didn't

Not that he liked the man not that he approved of this heresy or anything along the lines of that But he didn't what happened was a man in Geneva was trying to convert a relative of his

Who was a Roman Catholic and He was aware of the fact

Calvin had mentioned to some of his his close friends that Villanueva Servetus was actually living in a

Roman Catholic country and in fact was in the employ of the Archbishop of a major city and So in a letter this man said to his

Roman Catholic relative he said Look in Geneva, we are truly concerned about truth and Christian doctrine and We would not put up with someone like that infamous heretic

Michael Servetus which it who is living in a Roman Catholic country and is in service of an archbishop well his

Correspondent immediately turned that over to the authorities who immediately went to Villanueva, and he denied everything

I'm not Michael Servetus. No, that's not me. No, no, no, and so they wrote back to the reformed man in Geneva and said

You you've you've made an accusation here against this man. You need to back it up. And so he went to Calvin and As he himself said had to plead with Calvin had to convince

Calvin To give over the documentation that would be needed to demonstrate that Michael Villanueva was actually

Michael Servetus and since there was a legal proceeding ongoing he felt that that was what he should do, but you'll notice

Here's here's the What the man said, but I will tell you one thing I had the greatest difficulty in getting them out of Monsieur Calvin Not that he wants such execrable blasphemies to go unreproved but because it seems to him that his duty as One who does not bear the sword of justice is to convict heresies by doctrine rather than by pursuing them with the sword

But I was so important with him Remonstrating that I should be accused of levity unless he helped me then the end he agreed to let me have what you see well, he sent along portions of Servetus's manuscript and Enough information to demonstrate that Michael Villanueva was the one who'd written these letters and was in fact

Michael Servetus So that's how he became known to the Inquisition, that's how he was arrested and While on trial in his nightshirt, he snuck over the wall while he asked asked the guard to use the restroom and jumped up on top of the of the outhouse in essence and Jumped over the wall and escaped

But he for some odd reason made a beeline for Geneva. There's a lot of discussion as to why that was and Why that would be

I think he knew that his jig was up and he wanted to take on Calvin and Many speculate that this was one of the most difficult times for Calvin in Geneva.

Why well something that mr Barker doesn't seem to understand is that John Calvin was not even a citizen of Geneva at this time

He became a citizen in 1559. This is 1553 His book had come out in January.

That is serratus's and he knew that in the past few elections everything had gone against Calvin in Geneva and So many believe and there's reason to believe this given how serratus

Behaved when he got there that he thought that the enemies of Calvin would be able to be convinced to be to side with him against Calvin and In fact, even once he was arrested in Geneva and put in prison

He demanded that Calvin be put in prison as long as he was prosecuting him Remember the chief minister since this was the theological issue would be under obligation to be the prosecutor in this case

But it was not the minister or the ministers Who did the arresting or the punishing when people say that Calvin had surveyed us burned they are misrepresenting the historical situation

They try to present as if Calvin was this this autocrat. He just he ruled

Geneva That is not the case anyone who has read anything about the history of the situation knows that's not the case so you have the personal history and then you have the situation at the time of surveyed us as arrest and That is that Calvin is fighting hard to maintain his position

Servetus immediately makes contact with those in the city who are Calvin's enemies

And he attempts to have Calvin arrested on charges of heresy Years before a man had accused

Calvin of heresy in regards to Arianism and a denial the deity of Christ He brought those things back up. He wanted

Calvin put on trial and hoped to see him destroyed In fact, he even filed a motion accusing

Calvin of simony Accusing Calvin of doing what he did to gain money and everybody knew that Calvin was not a man

With a love for money, but he still made the accusation and filed it in such a way that he wanted to receive

Calvin's home and property if He prevailed in his suit against against Calvin So this this is not a man who is just sitting there, you know

Sitting idly by going. Oh, I'm just such an innocent person he to the end not only maintained his

Position but he fought to have Calvin accused along these lines as well

And so when Barker tries to tell us that that oh, well Calvin's ego was hurt

It was just a little disagreement. This is absurd. It is absurd beyond the level of absurdity because you see the

Genevans wrote to the other Swiss canton's and all of the Swiss canton's without Exception insisted that Cervetus had to die by burning all of them they wrote to now remember the

Inquisition after he escaped burned him an effigy along with a few bales of paper

Representing his books so we know what they thought about it So it was very clear what the Roman Catholics thought about Michael Cervetus all the

Swiss canton's said he must die They wrote to Philip Melancthon Philip Melancthon Luther's successor was not like Luther He was

I think last time I described him as somewhat squishy and Yet Melancthon wrote back and said it is it is necessary that Cervetus be punished that he died

This was the united voice of all the governments of Europe They try to present it as if as if Calvin was just doing something and everybody's like oh but We can't stop

Calvin and as if this is some unusual thing If Calvin is to be convicted of something is to be convicted of living in 1553

He did nothing out of the norm whatsoever in any way shape or form He was not there the burning lighting the fires in fact the ministers

Specifically asked that Cervetus receive a more a quicker and less painful execution and The little council which is the secular council, which is the council that burned

Cervetus the little council refused they did not allow even for what the ministers asked to take place and Even up until the night before his execution

Calvin went to Cervetus and sought to try to convince him of the errors of his ways and I want to read you some of the things that he said

The day oh I took I brought the wrong book I apologize that's not in this one

I can't tell you but in a long to make a long story short He sought this was not a man

Gloating over the destruction of this person This is not anything like what

Dan Barker and others try to present here is a man who? You've got to give Calvin his props

He was consistent the reason that he opposed Cervetus the reason he prosecuted

Cervetus is because he truly believed that his viewpoints were a cancer and Now that he was convicted and was about to be executed

He sought to see him before that happened repent of his heresies and his errors and Did not receive any

Indication from him that he did that in fact it was it was Guillaume Farrell not John Calvin who accompanied him to the execution and so It's simply a matter of being balanced.

It's It's simply a matter of allowing the historical facts to speak it's so easy to use this kind of argumentation against people of the past I Hate to say it, but this is how

Dave Hunt acts Dave Hunt does the exact same thing in regards to the Cervetus incident as well, and it is meant to It's an obviously a logical argumentation.

Well if Calvin was a mean terrible horrible nasty man, then Calvinism must be unbiblical Try to follow the logic on that one for a moment and eventually you'll

Explode because there is no logic to it but that is the kind of argumentation that you get and with post -modernists in our day and especially with the next generation that unfortunately is

Historically ignorant on a level that is difficult even begin to comprehend It works real well

People today are more than willing to anachronistically apply our standards today to people who live before and I don't know about you

But I sure hope that people living 50 or 100 150 years from now will not judge me on the basis of an anachronistic historical methodology

And if you have concerns about things like that, then you would I think understand that as well

But that's what people do and so it's a cheap argument. It's a cheap debating point

You know that in a debate you're the other guy is never gonna have enough time to actually You know fix these things up and give you a context at all and So that's how you get away with that kind of thing.

And so I want to expand out on that a little bit I went through it very quickly before But especially if you know,

I we talked to a lot of folks on this program You're attempting to bring reform to your church you're attempting to Encourage people to think biblically and they discover this name

Calvin and I've not googled it But something would tell me that probably on the first page if you google

John Calvin you're gonna find references to Michael Cervantes and I've mentioned before the very first time

I ever heard about John Calvin and Calvinism was in a Watchtower article about Michael Cervantes and so that kind of stuff is is out there and so you need to know and you need to have some backgrounds as So you have some understanding of what this was all about Calvin was not running around With a lighted torch in his hand, you know lighting people up right and left around Geneva just for the fun of it you

You can definitely as a Baptist, you know, I like to go through this story and then

I like to play the movie the radicals Which gives the other side in a sense of what it was like to be persecuted by the

Magisterial Reformers as a Baptist the Magisterial Reformation which places that power in the hands of the secular authority is dangerous and Many of my forefathers died through that and I would disagree with the

Magisterial Reformation but the fact of the matter is that's all there was in that day and I want to look at anybody like a

Dave Hunt who says well, he should have known better I want to look him in the eyes and say you really think

That in that day when Europe had known nothing for centuries for centuries prior to this of quote -unquote

Religious freedom that you not only would have seen all the errors of Rome That your your vision is so clear of the

Bible without tradition That you would have gone as far as they did and even farther to a perfectly consistent

Position you want to look at me in the eye and tell me you do that and the sad thing is I think Dave Hunt would I really think he would when the man can look at me and said and say

I have no traditions Then I think he would say well, of course, I just pick up the Bible and read it and that's how it would go

So anyway, I I wanted to expand out on that a little bit before we go to our our break

I'm I'm not alone in the studio today. We have a studio audience today

Sitting on the floor behind me is my daughter. Hi summer. How are you? She's eating one drinking one of my

FRS energy drinks, but that's that's how things go when you have kids You know, I bought him for me, but you know when the little ones little ones, huh say hey

I want one of those But also in the studio with me here. In fact, uh brother

Jamin you have a microphone right there in front of you Why don't you why don't you slide that one down towards you there? I think you're rich can turn that on and it's it's on the side

It's you don't want to talk right into it. You want to turn it sideways a little bit. Oh, he's right there. Okay All right.

Thanks rich. Appreciate that Have and channel a young man. I met in Time ago long time ago has a picture of me and him at Omaha Bible Church That's where it was, right?

Yeah, and He's looking all you know, he did it today and I'm sitting there looking away with my eyes rolled up in the back of my head because Before that how long before that had you come into channel?

Well, I think it was about the end of my First year in high school, I think so, that'll be 2004

Wow, that's five years ago. Okay. All right You can actually get in a little get a little bit

So we knew each other from the chat channel and then you and And stark and floggy came down to I was speaking on what was

I speaking on justification? I The law thing Antinomian is antinomianism.

Oh, okay, man See, it's when you speak as much as I do you start losing track of what it was you were talking about But that's what we first we first met and since then you have now graduated from from Dort D or DT How did you do that given that you're not

Dutch? Did they actually allow that? That's a good question They do allow that and they do allow public school

German Baptist to go there. So really that's that's bizarre That is but you were sort of but but you could never really be on the inside circle

Well, I try to have my way in but it didn't work. No. No, you may like tulips, but You didn't have the right last name.

There's no two ways about that and now you're looking at continuing on with your education with pursuing a master's in Christian thought and I Wanted to mention that a couple

I don't know sometime last about two weeks ago. We had a fellow come in to the chat channel and He asked a question and that's not unusual in our chat channel people like to come in especially find out that I'm there

All of a sudden it's the online Bible answer man and every question I've ever wanted to ask I'm supposed to just stop everything and doing and this fellow said what's the difference between evidential ism and presuppositional ism?

And I said, I said, you know what? I really don't have time for this.

So Slams gonna do that. And of course your Nick is slamming I'm not gonna tell everybody why that is because it's sort of it's a sort of embarrassing.

But anyway So you evidently wrote some papers on that subject at some point, yeah because Everyone sat back and was sitting going.

No, wait a minute either He types at a hundred and eighty seven words per minute or is very good with the cut and paste feature on his computer

Well, that's here the latter. It's the latter. Yeah, but you you help that gentleman out

I think he was probably by the time was over with was like a Couple paragraphs would have been enough

Just taking after you This is true, this is very very true.

Yes. So anyway, I did appreciate what you had to say there and so I'd like to think

That that you're you're you're here just because you're just so taken with me

And and that's and that's why and that's why am I supposed to argue But I don't get the feeling that that's the whole reason why you came all the way down from South Dakota.

I don't know maybe I'm No, the scary thing is that I tried to warn my daughter about this guy

But they met in channel and for some reason they've been spending time together. I'm not sure why that is.

So hmm Yes, indeed. So Anyhow, but so we have our studio audience here today and I went a little bit past my break time, but so poor summers got to go to work, but Jamin's gonna stick around and feel free.

I'm gonna be playing some Dan Barker here So maybe you'll have some commentary you'd like to offer there, too

But we're gonna take our break and be back with a little more Dan Barker And hey your phone calls to eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

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You can order the Forgotten Trinity by going to our website at a omen org Hello everyone.

This is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

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Thank you It is a historic day here on the divine not only did we have a studio audience, but we have

Different bumper music that one didn't start out too. Well, we might have to Everybody's a critic.

Everybody's a critic. Yes. Everyone is a critic. That is that is how it works. There's no no Anyhow since we have a phone caller all the way from the

United Kingdom It's a good opportunity for me to get to speak to my fellow anyway

Head and talk to Daniel over in England. Hi Daniel All right,

I can hear you fine, how come you don't have a really good British accent Well, I was gonna say

I'm not gonna try to Max you on that. I'm I'm going to grad school. Yeah, so you're you're just a plain old yank in other words so Yeah You got to realize if you're going to graduate school over there when you come back if you have

An English accent people will think you're smarter than you actually are So you need to pick it up.

I mean look at Christopher Hitchens for crying out loud Look at the stuff he gets away with and the whole reason he gets away with it is because he's got an

English accent He says stuff. That's just just dumb but when you say it with an

English accent, then it sounds much more smarter than When we say it and and we've just sound like well anyway

So Anyway, go ahead with your questions, sir

Yeah Arguing the basis of probabilities and this came up in your commentary last week on the

D'Souza and Barker Q &A session and the thing that I've heard you mentioned a number of times on the dividing line this far is

Living something so biblical about arguing For God's existence or say for the resurrection

Say on the mere preponderance of probabilities as you put it. I was wondering if you'd clarify what exactly

It's so biblical about it. Maybe what it's not. I know you've appealed to the

Apostolic example, but you know, this isn't how the apostles argued But I guess

I was wondering Yeah, clarify on that issue and whether you think say all forms of Evidential argumentation that they would appeal of probabilities are unbiblical or whether it's a a certain kind that appeals to a certain

You know Armenian, you know view of man and natural man. Well, there's a number of things there

I think that any argumentation that encourages the rebel sinner in his rebellion and Encourages the that that individual to think that he is in a position to judge

God and to judge Whether there's a greater probability or possibility or whatever of God's existence

I think that's going to be unbiblical right from the start I see no evidence whatsoever that the

Apostles arguing this way now some people would immediately say well the Apostles didn't live In a postmodern world and we have to adapt

I think that would probably be the primary argumentation that is presented to us. And so part of this

Discussion is where do we derive our methodology and there could be many people who would say apostolic example is not where we derive our methodology we have a core of Christian beliefs and as Societies change that core becomes expressed in different ways as long as the core doesn't change

So there'd be some people who would go there. They would make that kind of argumentation. I would not secondly,

I would say that there is a fundamental difference here in in the approach that one makes both philosophically and apologetically and that is that And it does go back to a view of both

God and man If you again are allowing a person to stand in judgment over God's Proclamation of his own existence then your entire epistemology is not going to be a biblical epistemology.

It's not an epistemology that starts with God and then radiates out from God I If you could if you could picture this and I when

I teach my classes, I draw this on the board but if you could picture this the the epistemology or the worldview of those who would say that would in essence encourage you to Consider the greater probability of the existence of a

God What has a God now become a God has become an object of your knowledge?

You were in the center of the diagram and you are now reasoning out from you to to God to love to concepts to facts to science, but you are the one who is the center of That diagram

I would submit to you that a biblical epistemology has God in the center I am outside of that and a proper epistemological knowledge of the world around me concepts, whatever it might be

Has the line going from me to the center to God and from God to any object of knowledge because God is the one who?

Defines anything this I believe that that is the radical epistemology of the New Testament Why do I say that?

Because the New Testament says that all things are created by him and for him the Jesus Christ the creator of all things whether Visible invisible principalities power to minions authorities all things created by him before him

He is before all things and him all things hold together if that is true then anything that exists is what it is because God has made it that way and Any fact is a fact because God has made that fact to be that fact and so it from my perspective try using a defective epistemology in a defective worldview to Try to slowly nudge someone toward the proper worldview is itself a

Compromise and it's unnecessary. It's unnecessary Because it comes from a theology that thinks that it's my job to convince somebody

To adopt my position rather than the Spirit of God's job to bring about regeneration So there is a fundamental difference along those lines as well

And so yes when I hear William Lane Craig And the people in the

Craig camp arguing that the preponderance of the evidence and notice that just means the majority of the evidence points to the greater probability of the existence of a

God I Say that is a sub -christian approach. I Do not see how that in any way shape or form

Can I do not see the bridge? That you can build from there To Christian theism and a biblical theism the bridge between those two spots is

Going to have to involve at some point turning around and blowing up the epistemology you use to get them to that point

And I don't see how God is glorified in that. I really don't and I I don't see how people actually function within that and so Again, I'm forced to this not because I don't see that it's be pretty honest with you an easier argument

You're presenting a smaller target for your for your opponent, and I think it's one of the functionally

It's it's a it's a means type situation that the ends justify the means I really think that one of the reasons that people go there is that it presents a smaller target to be shot at by your opponent

And you can always tell the folks I lost my collar didn't I Oh bummer well?

He's listening on the internet, so hopefully we'll continue on So Daniel you can always tell the folks who adopt this kind of perspective

Because they will start off a discussion on anything the existence of God the resurrection whatever else it might be

By saying now. I'm just acting as a historian here And I so we don't have to worry about inerrancy.

It's just the core of these historical truths. We have to worry about Well, you know what even the atheists see through that one, and I don't have it queued up here

I could get it probably quickly enough, but the Christopher Hitchens debate with Frank Turek Hitchens even though he looked particularly

Enamored with the fruit of the vine that evening shall we say Even Hitchens in that state saw so clearly that Turek's arguments were for deism and Then he made this flying leap all the way over to Christian theism when he made his application and Hitchens could see that he had not built the proper bridge between those two perspectives and Caught him on that and I think a lot of sharp atheists catch people on that and from my perspective look

Christianity is a is a whole thing I Cannot compromise one part of it in hopes of getting you to accept this part of it

Part of that is just simply because I think it's impossible part of it's also my theology that I don't have to do that It's the

Holy Spirit of God that brings a person to regeneration. It's the Holy Spirit of God that opens the heart in the mind That's why

I love so much Luke 24 45 where after the resurrection. What does Jesus do when he meets with the disciples?

He opened their understanding their minds He made them understand the scriptures there is a spiritual aspect to this and You know the atheist who says oh, that's just terrible you're saying that God has to sort of change my brain

Rebellion, what does what does Paul say in Romans chapter 1? What does rebellion a twisting the creator creation relationship do?

When it says professing themselves to be wise it became fools Don't misunderstand what the word fool means there it means one lacking understanding there is an epistemological ramification of rebellion against your creator if your creator if God created this universe so that his

Centrality is meant to give meaning to everything else and you are spending your every moment

Trying to deny that and suppress that then yes that ends up twisting you

That ends up changing the way that you think it touches the mind. Yes total depravity touches all of Mankind I saw you agreeing with me over there

You have obviously read some van Till and and these others and It's hard for me to communicate to folks

But in your context in fact did you not do a debate Last year on apologetic methodology.

Yeah, it was For four or five months ago. Yeah, and and give me give me some background because I've forgotten well other positions were yeah

It was with a couple of friends one was a Kierkegaard Ian in Kierkegaard of course said that Something that you defend isn't really worth defending and you know it's it's not

There is no point of apologetics and another was a kind of a half -hearted Kuiper position

Abraham Kuiper is a neo -calvinist the 20th century and he was one of van

Tills biggest influences And then my own was was simply I was just arguing

Not that necessarily pre suppositional apologetics was the best but that there is a place for apologetics in the

Christian faith, right? So that was pretty a pretty basic debate So there wasn't an evidentialist in the group there really wasn't and I was basically one of the only ones in the room who

Thought that apologetics is a good thing and it's in a reason for that is because my particular college is one of the only two

Who are based which is based off of Abraham Kuiper's? specific neo -calvinist worldview and Kuiper in particular was very

Like Karl Barth like Kierkegaard like all of those thinkers around that time. We're very pissed up pessimistic of apologetics

And so that really carried over for I mean the next 50 years and in the next hundred years and so a lot of the people at my college just didn't see the point of So now

I don't want to get you in trouble, but this is a reformed institution And it's a reformed institution of higher learning.

How can you not engage? Given our culture in apologetics. I'm sort of missing something.

Yeah It is a bit It's a bit ironic because you know Engaging the culture is actually what would

Abraham Kuiper and a lot of the reformers was all about and somehow the apologetic element kind of slipped out and so Interesting interesting.

Well, it would seem to me that anyone's day in a university setting Christian or non -christian

One thing that scares me is that people go to a Christian University and they let their guard down They don't think there's a need for apologetics.

They don't they think since I'm going to a Christian place. I don't have to Critically examine what's being said to me and the result is just such massive confusion in in what they don't the thing the reason it's so it's so difficult is because now you're dealing with people who are under the the umbrella of Religious or a

Christian, you know, so you think you're a we're on the same side, right? But then your your discernment level has to go up ten times because now you're you're dealing with people in the faith

That's right. That's that's quite true. And that's been my experience as well. Hey, we've got a call here and let's go ahead and take it

Well, we still have some time here and let's talk with Tim in Texas. Hi Tim Hi, dr. White. How you doing?

I'm quite good. Thanks And So I'm calling because I'm going to be speaking to my church's college group on the reliability of the

New Testament next week Yes, putting to use much of the vast amounts that I've been listening to from you and So I've only got about 20 minutes to 20 to 30 minutes to speak on Yeah, and and to refer them to more resources, which will include a lot but So I'm trying to narrow down to the key concepts to include and I've got some ideas about that But I love to get your advice on what you would see as the most important both like pieces of background to include and then also the most important like Sentences or phrases that like Bart Ehrman will throw out that require context

Wow And do it in 20 minutes, yeah, see what you what you have to Let me just mention a couple things, you know the the people that are part of your

College and career group. Okay, so, you know where they're going, you know What their background is and so you have to make some decisions based upon that it's always good to have a hook a way of getting their attention and They're going to get hit no matter where they are they're gonna get hit with the 400 ,000 variance number so my idea would be

Use it and explain it before somebody else's uses it and abuses it.

Yeah, if it's sort of an inoculation with truth So if you can start off by by saying that even conservative biblical scholars

Will recognize that there would be approximately 400 ,000 variance in the text of the

New Testament and make sure they understand you're talking about the New Testament here Not the Old Testament. Yeah people frequently get it get confused

In the in the in the number of manuscripts we have that gets their attention And then from that if you do you happen to have the

DVD of the ermine debate? Not the DVD the mp3 Well, you you know

DVD has this beautiful Presentation right there in it that gives you all this neat information they the the folks at American vision took my keynote presentation and they

Made it a part of the DVD. So it's right there. It's really to see but There was a there was a little

AVI file that I provided but that that has the same information too But this is that this is much easier to see and to grab and use and stuff it's in the

DVD, but you can use that and you can Help them to understand out of these 400 ,000 you're talking about 5752 manuscripts and you start breaking it down as to how many that includes per page and so on so forth and Demonstrate that that big number when it's thrown out to them

If no one gives context to it Then they their red lights should turn on and there someone's probably trying to deceive them

That would be that probably the first thing that I would do and then the main thing That I would attempt to communicate to anybody if I only had that amount of time would be the concept of tenacity

If you can communicate to them the reality of the fact that in that manuscript tradition

You have the original readings that even if there is a place where you have two or three possibilities

The reason that scholars press forward and the reason that a believing person can find

Solace in this and and it's important is that one of those two or three readings is the original so the originals are there

I think that the Illustration I use in the debate which I stole from somebody else Actually Is very very good.

It's like having a thousand piece puzzle and you have a thousand and ten pieces It's the ten extra that you have to identify

It's not like you have only nine hundred of the thousand pieces left that's

That kind of illustration I think can help people to understand What the real issues are and what you might want to do

This is this is this of be another way would would a number of the students. They're probably be carrying an

NIV Okay What you could do to get their attention to start to draw their attention to the issue would be to ask someone who has

Say does anyone here have a King James or a New King James and have somebody I don't know. Okay Could you read for me from the

Gospel of John chapter 5 verse 4? And I'm gonna ask someone who has an NIV to read the same text and then you have the person with the

King James a New King James read John 5 4 and then say bear than IV Could you read that for me? And you're gonna start seeing these amazed looks on the part of everybody in the audience because there is no

John 5 4 in the NIV it goes from 5 3 to 5 5 Now there is a note at the bottom of the page, but it's in about four point font

And if I don't have my reading glasses, I won't even find it anymore. But most people don't look down the bottom the page anyways

So that that introduces them to have you ever noticed these little notes, you know, it's in the it's in the margin of your

ESV It's the bottom of the page in any SB However, it's typeset whatever everyone else these little notes some manuscripts say this and some manuscripts say that has another bothered you

Let's talk about let's let's let's be aware of what this really is Because if we don't talk about it then other people can come along and use this in a negative way without giving you all the facts and Once you've whetted their appetite saying that here's some of the some of the places you can go to get to get more information

Now, I'll make sure to bring my own NIV just in case Must be hurting these days if if we have to you know, drag one along I Had on my list of things to to hit heavily kind of multifocality as you've been talking about and For establishing well, you know the only the only problem again, the only reason

I didn't mention that is because you've said you got 20 minutes and unless you have Graphic like I used and believe me it took me a while to develop it if you could if you this subject is one of the best subjects that I know of that illustrates the glory of the digital projector

Because without being able to illustrate some of this stuff the blank stares you start getting

Are really really really noticeable. And so I have this really cool graphic and You know for a certain amount

I could probably be convinced I Don't know you'd have to ask rich about that, but since My little box right over Since I so they have the little box on my screen that tells me that you're one of the channel rats

I actually can probably get that to you a whole lot at least that part of it that illustration that section where I Use a map to illustrate the the movement of manuscripts around the ancient world.

Okay, that really helps out a lot Great. Yes. Okay. We can we can try to figure that out.

Yeah now everybody's gonna be rushing into the chat Yeah Part of why

I was thinking multifocality would be good Well, I just I wanted to get the idea of the the early uncontrolled widespread distribution where no one had control

Over it right to have the power to vital vitally important vitally important if you can do it in 20 minutes vitally important now my opening statement.

I forgot my how long were the opening statements in that debate 20 They were 30 minutes, yeah, yeah my opening statement was 30 minutes

So, you know, that's a little bit longer than you've got but I covered a little bit more information So it's it's possible.

You might be able to to sneak that in but it can create information

Overload really quickly with people who don't if they don't have any background before so but remind me in channel,

I'll I'll see if I can pull out of my Ermin debate presentation that particular set of graphics where the manuscripts move around so like that that would probably be of some assistance

Okay Tonight I'm at I'm I'm missing dinner at my church small group right now

Well, I appreciate the sacrifice you gave thanks for thanks call today brother.

Thank you. All right. Thanks a lot. God bless all right, well Jamin, thank you for sitting in today and joining joining us on the program and I'm still gonna have to put some thought into figuring out just why you are here in Phoenix.

I haven't think a little harder All Right next week only one dividing line, but but We're gonna do our best.

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Dan Barker debate on Thursday night. We're gonna try don't get mad as we can't do it We're gonna do our best.

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