The Church I: | Behold Your God Podcast

Welcome to the Behold Your God podcast, I'm Teddy James, content producer for Media Grazie. This week, if you're watching this on YouTube, you see that again, we're not in John's office.

And if you're listening, again, the audio is going to be a little bit different. The reason that this episode is a little off is because we have a very special guest and it is a man named

Jeff Johnson. Now, if you've been a longtime listener to the podcast, you're familiar with Jeff.

He's been on a few times before, but Jeff, for those who haven't met you yet, tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.

Yeah, thanks, Teddy. Well, my name is Jeff Johnson and I'm pastor of Grace Babel Church in Conway, Arkansas, and also the president of Grace Babel Theological Seminary where I'm currently located.

Also, I'm the president or director of Free Grace Press, a

Reformed Baptist publishing company, and so I wear a lot of hats.

Plus, I'm a father of a beautiful bride, Letha, and we have four children, so I stay in the busy.

Yeah, man, you are a man of many hats, and not to mention, on top of all that, you are the author, narrator, and host of the latest project that's come out from MediaGratia.

Yeah, what a great honor it was to be a part of the project, the church, and production of the documentary and the series, and so it's about to be released.

I'm very excited about it. Yeah, and really quick before we get any further, I do want to make note,

Jeff, you are in the seminary right now. That's the beautiful background that you have with all the books, but the seminary is right off of a busy road, so if you happen to hear any kind of traffic, normally there's an ambulance that comes by, so if you hear that, please bear with us.

Have some grace there. But Jeff, I wanted to talk to you for a minute about the film particularly. So the film is called

The Church, and how did that get started? Because it started with just a little pamphlet, right?

Yeah, that started about 20 years ago, at least in seed form.

When our church was established, I wrote a little pamphlet for visitors and for potential new members to kind of learn about what we were and what we believed the church was all about, and it was more of an introductory into our own local church, and I remember one visitor came, and he picked that track up, our little pamphlet up, and he took it home and came back next week, and he says, this is really good.

It needs to be into a book. You need to publish a book, make this into a book. And so I expanded it, and then we published it with Free Grace Press.

Actually, we published it with Solid Ground Christian Books at first, went for the first edition, and went through like six editions and printings, and eventually it led to this documentary.

Yeah, and so now there is, you've kind of developed that pamphlet, grew, grew, and grew, and now it's a book, and the name of the book is?

The name of the book now is The Church, Her Nature, Purpose, Authority, and Worship, but it used to be called

The Church, Why Bother? But in this latest edition, it was expanded once more, and I wanted to be careful with the expansion of it, because the beauty of the book, at least what

I was hoping would be the uniqueness of the book, is that it covers the whole gamut of what the church is and what it's supposed to be doing in one simple, compact reading, and so that someone can read and understand what the nature, what's the purpose, the authority, and worship of the church is in one book.

So I didn't want to expand it where it becomes too complicated or too basically thick for the average person to want to dive into.

So I did my best to say as much as I can about the church in the fewest words possible.

Yeah, and I think you do a great job with it, and really that even carries over into the film. I mean, it can be so easy, and in fact, the first cut of the film was about four hours long, and just like with the pamphlet, one of the things that we've tried to do is to condense all of it down to the smallest size possible where it still makes sense, we're still teaching a message.

But that does beg the question, what is the purpose of the church project?

Why would we spend a year and a half really focusing and working on this project?

I think it goes back to, at least for myself, about 15 years ago,

I went into a Christian bookstore and I heard this young man ask, this person looking for books, he said something like this, you know,

I love the Lord Jesus, but I'm not into organized religion. I'm not into organized

Christianity. And in essence, he's saying, I want to know about Jesus, I want to have a relationship with Jesus, but I don't want to have anything to do with the church.

And I was just overhearing that, and that was enough to stimulate a really burden that the local church is falling on hard times.

A lot of people have little to no appreciation for what the church is and its importance.

And sadly, I think it's because the church itself, many churches have sold themselves out by providing merely entertainment for people to grow.

They became a, you know, a supply and demand type activity where the consumer wants this,

I'll supply what this consumer wants. And then after about five or 10 years, the consumer realized, really, that's kind of superficial.

I really don't need that for my spiritual walk. I don't really need, you know, latte coffees and light shows to really, to know the

Lord. Or even it seems somewhat superficial, if that's what Christianity is all about, then, you know,

I can get that in the world. And so the church has kind of undermined itself in trying to attract the world.

And I wanted to write something and produce something, even with a documentary, something that brings people back to the importance of the local church, not just in obedience to God, but their own personal walk with the

Lord, that we can't truly be what God has called us to be as individual

Christians without being actively involved and dedicated to His church.

Yeah. So let me ask you this, because every idea has its origin, right?

And typically what we tend to do, I think particularly as Americans, is we say, well, these ideas are, they originated in our generation or they originated in our time.

But the idea that the church is not central to the Christian life, it's nothing new. Where did that kind of start?

And also, what are the dangers of really feeding that idea and adopting it?

I know I've read where John Owen talked about in his day, during the Puritan era, 17th century, that they were plagued with people that would church hop or just, you know, lack of being dedicated to a particular local church.

And I think if he was dealing with it in the 17th century, how much more are we dealing with it in our own day?

That is always a tendency. I don't know if it's just a tendency in nature to be lazy.

It's a tendency in nature to drift. It's a tendency in nature just to not strive to be more like Christ.

Without encouragement and prompting and without grace and without discipline, we're going to move backwards.

And I think it's natural for people to want to stay at home or just to look at the church in a way that they look at their favorite movie theater.

You go on a Sunday, you get entertained, or you get fed, you leave, and there's little to no accountability or commitment to go back.

Or maybe you do go back, but there's no commitment to be watched and held accountable. And if I understand the church right, church membership should be looked at as church accountability, that I'm submitting myself to a body of believers that's going to watch over my soul and keep me accountable, not only to be in church and be active and involved in the church life, but the church body is watching my personal life to the degree that am

I loving my wife? Am I raising my children the way that God has called me? It's not like they're micromanaging my life, but that my life is somewhat on display to be watched.

And I'm to live a life that's an encouragement to one another. And so I'm all of a sudden held accountable to this body.

And what a safeguard that God has put in to the Christian life to help us from wandering away from Him and wandering away from the body.

Yeah, you know, and I've heard so many people say, well, I don't want somebody, you know, looking over my life and telling me, well, this is all the things you're doing wrong and here's all your weaknesses.

But you know, my response has always just simply been, why would you not want that? If the desire of your life, go ahead.

We don't want any type of pastoral leadership that's telling us what shirts to buy and what cars to buy and, you know, and abusing their authority.

And I know that happens in some abusive situations in churches, but we also don't want the other extreme where basically you attend and you leave and no one even knows you're there or not and you're just, you're going like a movie theater, if you go or don't go, it doesn't matter.

I mean, you don't want that scenario either. So you really want this, I think this biblical approach where you're not micromanaged, but also you're not left without any accountability.

So you're, you're, you're, you're being watched and you're being loved. You're being missed when you're not there.

You're being encouraged. You're being, if necessary, rebuked when you fall in sin. And it's amazing thing that, that it's a beautiful thing, actually, if you understand that it's my role as a church member to watch over the lives and souls of other church members.

And it's my job to submit to that accountability as well. Yeah. And also if, if as a believer, your desire, your greatest desire is the glory of the

King, would you not want someone to love the King enough and to love you enough to point out areas of your life where the

King is being dishonored? And really that's what, that's what rebuke and church discipline is about.

Exactly. I mean, there's, you know, the Bible tells us that those who isolate themselves seek their own harm.

I mean, and it's a multitude of counselors, their safety. And it's amazing by just being actively involved in a body of believers that love you and you know their lives, they know your life, and you're intimately involved in this community.

It's amazing what, what natural corrective that has upon our lives.

Imagine that we're all somewhat a little prone to go off in a particular area of weaknesses or particular area of weakness, and, or maybe it's our theological bent that's away from the truth.

And we're talking to another believer at church and he's saying something quite a little bit different, a little bit more the other way.

And we don't realize it, but we're being centered. We're being brought back and we don't really know that we're being corrected, but it's just that multitude of counselors that keeps us kind of all balanced rather than just moving off into one particular direction.

Yeah, no, the church is a safeguard. And, and I think that often we lose that, we really do lose the importance of it.

And to me, that's one of the strengths of this project is that it, it highlights the church in a way that I've rarely seen done before.

And so speaking of the project though, you know, I've had the, the fortunate opportunity of, of now watching the final product,

I don't know, maybe five or six times at each time that I stop or each time that I'll watch it,

I want to really stop and tell people that I'm watching this with the stories behind this particular shot or behind this frame or to tell somebody, you know, what's happening on the other side of the camera.

That you can never see. So I've got lots and lots of those stories, but Jeff, I wanted to get a few minutes and ask you, what's a story that sticks out in your mind for making the project?

I've watched the documentary twice now. Well, I guess maybe three times if you think about that rough cut, but twice since it's been released.

And every time I watch that scene where we're in Germany and we're at the birthplace of Luther and I'm watching myself,

I'm seeing, you know, behind the scenes, I'm, I'm, I'm remembering when the camera was rolling, how stressed out

I was about my passport being gone and we had lost my passport. I lost my passport and, and we were flying to London the next morning and here we're, we still have to film these scenes and I'm frantically concerned, but also have these lines to repeat.

And somehow we got the takes, but I don't know how that happened because my mind was completely off on a different topic of that passport.

So it was, when I see that, I'm like, man, that, that was a stressful moment.

Oh, absolutely. I do remember that well. And I remember how I felt terrible about it because you had my passport thinking it was your passport till we opened them up and looked into them.

Now, but before too many people blame me for it, Jeff, where did your passport end up being?

Yeah, this is a crazy story. Um, we, as we're going up, traveling from Switzerland into Italy, we, we like, let's make sure we get our passports.

And I reached in my bag and I felt what I thought was my passport, you know, but I didn't pull it out.

Turned out to be yours. I'm like, yeah, I got mine. I'm good. And I'm, I'm looking,

I'm frantic, right? Cause I don't have my passport and I'm looking all over the car for it. And I'm going that poor soul, you know,

I'm feeling sorry for you, but it's like, man, I got mine, you know? And so then a little later we, you know, we go down the road a little bit more.

And I, for some reason, you know, you're still panicking about your, you know, your passport.

So I pulled mine out to make sure I don't have yours too. And cause

I remember we, the night that we stayed before we had, we put all our passports on the table to show in the check -in process.

And I remember grabbing yours and mine. I think that's what happened. I grabbed the passports that were left.

I said, I'll grab Teddy's and I put them in my bag. Well, I, I guess that's what happened, but nevertheless, um, when

I pulled what I thought was mine out, it was yours. I hand it to you. You were, you know, relief.

Oh yeah. Then all of a sudden I began to panic. And then we ended up getting to the next place to film.

And, um, I, uh, I, um, we tear up the van.

We tear up my bag. We just empty everything and search. I think three times I went through my bag, nothing.

Then we had to go through the, I had to delay my flight to London, had to go to the embassy in Berlin.

It was a nightmare experience, took forever. I ended up getting an Uber, going to the wrong airport.

Berlin has two airports, by the way. We need to remember that. Yeah. I forgot about that.

Yeah. I go to the one on the other side of the, of the city to learn that it was the wrong airport.

Then I had to quickly get an Uber to the right airport.

And then it all turned out well, we ended up getting a temporary passport. We finished the filming, but I was headed to Brazil like a month later when

I got back. So I had to turn that temporary passport back into a permanent one.

So I had to get a rush passport, which was crazy. I had to spend another like 200 bucks to get a rush passport.

That temporary one cost me a couple hundred dollars. I got this new passport. I get to Brazil and when

I'm packing to go to Brazil, my original passport falls out of the bag.

Yeah, I just, I, that is one of my favorite stories, uh, from, from the whole trip. All of the stress that was involved, but you know, also just how everything really did.

It was a nightmare. Yeah. It was, I felt, you know, $500 stress of the whole scenario, uh, because my passport got put into a secret compartment in the bag, the bag that I had,

I had like a billion zippers. But Hey, at least now, you know, you have a secret compartment in the bag that nobody in the world will ever find.

Even if they steal your bag. That's true. Yeah. So now that we've got the film, we've, we've, we've seen it.

And if you've been watching the podcast or listening to it, uh, for any number of weeks, you've seen, or you've heard the trailer to it, but there is a line in the trailer.

Um, and in fact, if, if you're watching this, I've got it on a poster back behind me. And, and the line is this, the church is where people find salvation.

Now you actually say in the movie, um, this might be controversial to some.

So I I'd like for you to kind of explain the context of that statement.

And what is it that you mean by that? That's really the, one of the most important lines in the whole documentary.

And it's kind of a thesis statement. If you would, you know, you've got that introduction and boom, you got this pregnant line.

That's that may catch people off guard. It seems somewhat controversial that cause, you know, you've got the

Catholics teaching that the church is the dispenser of salvation that without the church, there is no salvation.

Salvation comes through the mediation of the church. You, you go into heaven by entering into the church.

And so without the church and submission to the Pope, there's no salvation. So that's obviously wrong and heretical.

And so we want to avoid that era. So I'm saying something that seems very similar, but it's really quite different.

I didn't say the church is what gives salvation. I said, what's where you find salvation.

And that's important because the church is called the pillar and ground and truth in the scriptures. And that's the kind of the theme of the book that the church is the one place on earth that the truth has been deposited and entrusted to.

So where do we find the truth? Where do we find the gospel? We find it not at Walmart or some superstore, or we don't find it at the sports arena.

We find truth in the church, the true church, because that's the role of the church is to put the truth on display, to preach it, to defend it, to protect it, to evangelize, to teach all that the

Christ has commanded. So that is the purpose of the church. And if that's the purpose of the church, then that's where you find the gospel.

That's where you find the truth. That's where you find salvation. That's where you find the necessary information or doctrine or truth in order to know how to be saved.

And so that's the role of the church. It's why the church is so central, not just to the life of the believer, but really the church itself is so vital and so important and intrinsic to the world at large.

That's right. It's the light. You know, it's the light on the hill. It's the beacon of where God is operating.

You know, where is God operating? Where do you find God? You find God where you find the word, where we find truth.

There's no presence of God. There's no working of God. There's no miraculous miracles.

There's no intervention of God on earth outside of the word of God with outside the truth.

He operates through this means. He created the world by his word. He spoke the universe into existence through his word.

And his word is what saves people. His word is what sanctifies people. His word is what changes people.

So the word is essential to the working of God in this world. And it's the truth that he has chosen to confine himself to say,

I don't want to put God in a box. No, God has put himself in a box. It's called the word, his own word.

And so that has been given to the church. And so that's why the church is the most important body or entity in the world.

Now, Jeff, for someone who they've not seen the church as so vital and so important in their life, in the life of their family, and they've simply neglected it, what does repentance look like for that individual, for that family, or even maybe for a church who has said, okay, well, we think that primarily what we need to do is just do whatever it takes to bring people in.

And we need a lot of extras. And the gospel is not enough to bring them in. What would the application of this entire conversation be?

And what would repentance look like if someone has been like that? Now they're saying, oh, now

I understand the church is so much more than I ever thought. You know,

I'm convinced that, you know, with anything in our lives that we have to know the truth and be convinced of the truth before there's real change in our lives.

And so there's a reason people are not committed to the church and do not value the church is because theologically, they don't understand the scriptures on the topic, and they don't really believe it's essential.

But you've got to believe these things first. You have to study the scriptures and say, what does the scripture say about the church?

And that's what the book is all about. Like, I wrote that book, said, okay, I don't want to know what some church growth guru is saying.

I want to know what Christ said. It's his church. He's established it. He commissioned it. He set the boundaries.

We don't get to invent this thing. We're not, it's not the 4 -H club. It's Christ who established this. He writes the rules of operation.

Who's to be the leaders? What are the responsibilities of the membership? What's to be done in their worship services?

How's it to be carried out? We don't get to figure this out on our own. The scriptures is our guide, and it's our authority.

It's the authority of the church. So I wrote a whole book by just studying that. And so I'd encourage everybody to first go back to study this, pick up the book and read it, but then not just be content with what

I'm saying, confirm it with scriptures themselves or with scripture. It's with scripture.

And then secondly, you know, to more fully answer your question, teach your family the importance of being actively involved and dedicated to a local church.

And first find them the most healthy biblical church you can find and join that one.

Even if you have to travel a while, even if you have to say, you know, to tell your kids it's worth driving some distance to get to a faithful biblical church, that's important.

And then once you find that church, dedicate yourself to it and, you know, be there and get involved and submit yourselves to that church.

And I'm certain that you'll see yourself grow. I'm certain that, you know, go to the gym one time, you won't see a difference.

Go two times, you may not even see a difference. Go three times, you go, I don't know if this is working. But go to the gym regularly, consistently, routinely, you'll see a difference.

Go to church regularly, routinely, consistently, and you will see yourself grow in the

Lord. So I've been doing a lot of thinking about what a church is and what you need to build it.

And it's not brick and mortar and reclaimed wood. The Greek word we translate as church in our

English Bibles is the word ecclesia. The word simply means an assembly.

The church is an assembly of God's people called out of the sinful world to be with Him and with His people.

That's the church. The church is the pillar and ground of the truth.

If we go to and we believe for another purpose or a different purpose than the

Lord has assigned to us as a church, then we can be whatever we want.

But we are not a church of God. We are not a church of Christ. You take Christ out of Christianity and you have removed everything.

We just become a glorified country club. And what we are to do and the way we are to live flows out of what

God in His grace has actually done for us. If I could redo seminaries, I would probably take out the missions department.

And instead of having them have a missions department, I would have them have an ecclesiology department and teach them what it means to have a biblical church.

And the local church is the way Jesus set up for us to help get the sonar pinging back on what we're really acting like and behaving like.

I know we think, I think I'm a follower of Jesus, but I'm committed to you guys. You're in my life.

You're seeing it. Am I really following the Lord here? Help me out in this. What is the difference between a church that will stand and one that will fall?

And why does that even matter? Well, this will sound controversial to some. But let me say this clearly as I can.

It matters very much if we build our churches on the wrong foundation. Because the church is where people find salvation.

In all those ways, the church is about the truth business.

And it is the place that God has assigned to that particular work. To order the

Church, Pillar and Ground of Truth, visit Mediagratia .org and click the link in the description of this episode.

Well, our hope and our prayer is not that you would listen to this podcast and then go look into the church project.

We do believe in the project. That's why we spent so much time and energy making it. But really, our desire, our prayer is that you would listen to this podcast and study out the scriptures to see the importance that God himself has placed on his bride.

The vitality and the necessity of your local church, the local body of believers.

And if you do have a healthy church that you're a part of, praise God, please pray and praise

God that he has blessed you with a faithful fellowship. And encourage your pastor, encourage those around you.

Be the iron that sharpens iron. With every week, we like to end our podcast with a prayer.

And this week's comes from Matthew Henry. Oh, Lord, our God, we desire with all humility and reverence to adore you as a being infinitely bright and blessed and glorious.

You have all perfection in yourself and are the foundation of all being, power, life, motion and perfection.

You are good to all and your tender mercies are over all your works. And you are continually doing us good, though we are evil and unthankful.

We reckon it an unspeakable privilege that we have liberty of access to you through Jesus Christ and leave to call you our father in him.