Yes, Catholic Theology is Still Problematic

Peter’s Call to Give a Gentle Defense

Peter commanded all Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us. Yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence. Your host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha and Omega Ministries, and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, you can call now by dialing 602 -274 -1360. That's 602 -274 -1360. Or if you're out of the Metro Phoenix dialing area, it's 1 -888 -550 -1360. That's 1 -888 -550 -1360.

And now, with today's topic, here's James White.

Why the Catholic Catechism Still Conflicts with Biblical Soteriology

And welcome to the program this afternoon. My name is James White, live with you in studio here for The Dividing Line today. And it is good to be with you. I was in New York last week. And if you were watching the television at all, you know that even though we've had no winter here, we have had really no cold weather except one little storm that came through back in December sometime.

Well, I got my fill of winter when I was back on Long Island. In fact, one day I was walking back to the hotel from a nearby gym. I had been working out in the morning. And the wind was whipping 20, 25 miles per hour right in my face.

And you know what, folks? If you've lived here as long as I have, I've lived here 26 years, you forget what that's like. I got back to the hotel, and I turned on the TV. And the weather report said that with wind chill, it was negative 8 degrees.

And here I sit in shorts and a short-sleeved shirt. And it's had the windows down, the truck on the way down here today. And you know what? We live in a beautiful, beautiful place. So if you get tired of the heat, you get tired of the sun and everything else, just remember what it's like to crunch through ice-covered snow and experience negative 8 wind chill.

It is quite the experience, not one that I would like to repeat very, very quickly. 602 .274 .1360 is our number here, or 1 -888 -550 -1360. Many issues that we could be discussing today, and I have chosen to go back to a subject that many people have many questions on and deal with a wide range of issues within the realm of Roman Catholicism and the differences that exist between Biblical theology and the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.

I was this morning reviewing the Universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, simply called the Catechism of the Catholic Church, first published in Latin in 1994 and the English translation the same year.

This particular brand new catechism, or well, relatively brand new, six years isn't all that long a period of time, is really, according to the Pope anyways, an authoritative representation of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.

Very often you will have people assert that in a point of fact, the representations that Protestant apologists make of the Roman Catholic position are dated, that they are not accurate, that they are going back before Vatican II, or whatever it might be.

So I thought it would be useful to listen directly to the statements of the Universal Catechism, but something happened as I was studying. I was looking at the sections on the Mass and on the death of Christ.

Most of you who are regular listeners know that I just completed writing a book entitled The Potter's Freedom. The Potter's Freedom will be released, Lord willing, in May. Calvary Press is working feverishly on the book as we speak.

I've already seen the cover. It is a very, very nice cover. They've done a very good job on that. It currently sits at around 300 pages in length, and it is a defense of the Reformation and a refutation of Norman Geisler's book, Chosen but Free.

And so as I was reading through the Catechism, I was struck a number of times by the fact that what I was reading was a direct parallel, in fact sometimes an almost direct quote, of some of the key passages that I had responded to in Dr. Geisler's book.

And before you get all bent out of shape by my saying that, I would just simply invite you, if you have access to Chosen but Free, to read the section on God's predeterminately foreknowing, or foreknowingly predetermining, and my response in Chapter 2 of The Potter's Freedom, and then read this section of the Catholic Catechism, paragraph 600, under Christ's redemptive death in God's plan of salvation.

Let me read it to you. It says,. And that is in reference to a quotation of Acts Chapter 4, where it says,. ...gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

Of course, the Catechism is wrong to find within the quotation of Acts Chapter 4, 27 through 28, any concept of, quote-unquote, free will. But then again, Arminian exegetes do the exact same thing, and find the very same concept of free will, even in passages that clearly say otherwise.

But the phraseology, is almost a direct quote of the presentation that Arminians make in regards to the foreknowledge of God, and the creation of God's plan. That struck me, and so it caused me to start doing some jumping around, looking at some other passages, and I ran across the following quotations, which again, if you're familiar with the book, or if you listened to the series we did last summer, you'll know exactly why these are so relevant.

Paragraph 155 of the Catechism says,. End quote. That's a quote from Thomas Aquinas, but it is the Catechism that says,. Dr. Geisser says,. And this is exactly what the Catholic Catechism says as well, and it's exactly what was denied at the time of the Protestant Reformation, and yet most people in the United States today, who would call themselves Protestants, would no longer agree with the Protestant Reformation, they would agree with these statements from the Catholic Catechism.

Paragraph 2008 says,. So that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, than to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

There is that concept of grace as merely something that moves us, but does not actually accomplish the intention that God sends it, and that is in the salvation of God's elect people. So it doesn't surprise me at all, that within one page of the assertion that God's eternal plan of predestination is somehow based upon what men do in time, that you simply turn the page over, you read these words.

Listen carefully. At the end of the parable of the lost sheep, this is paragraph 605 by the way, at the end of the parable of the lost sheep, Jesus recalled that God's love excludes no one. And then a quotation is given from Matthew 18, 14,.

So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. He affirms that he came to give his life a ransom for many. This last term is not restrictive, but contrasts the whole of humanity with the unique person of the Redeemer, who hands himself over to save us.

The church following the apostles teaches that Christ died for all men without exception. Quote, there is not, never has been, and never will be, a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer. End quote.

And that is a quotation from the Council of Cursee in 853. That's section 605 of the Universal Catechism. So one thing is for certain, you cannot be a faithful Roman Catholic and believe that the Catechism of the Catholic Church accurately reflects the teachings of the Magisterium and believe in the perfect work of Christ upon the cross of Calvary in place of God's people.

You cannot believe in particular redemption. You cannot believe that Christ's death actually saves anyone. You have to merely believe that Christ's death makes men savable. That it ensures their salvability, but not their salvation.

And again, that's the Arminian position, and that is why the Reformers saw Arminianism, the second and third generation Reformers, saw Arminianism as a return to Rome. Because on these fundamental issues, the nature of grace, the nature of the will, the nature of God's decree, the nature of the death of Christ, the Arminian agrees with the Roman Catholic.

And therefore it is not surprising whatsoever that so many evangelicals who have been given this teaching their entire lives are finding it so easy to embrace the soteriology that is the Gospel Proclamation of Rome.

Because fundamentally, they've already been agreeing with Rome and rejecting the Reformation all along to begin with. And I hope that makes some of you downright uncomfortable, truth frequently does. We don't want people sitting around being comfortable.

We want people sitting around thinking. That is not something that is very popular in our society today, but it is something that is very popular here on The Dividing Line. And if you've learned anything from listening to the program over the years, it is our desire that people think, and that they think clearly.

Well, we already have a call online. You can get involved, too, at 602 -274 -1360, or 1 -888 -550 -1360 if you're outside the Phoenix dialing area. That's 602. You don't want to get one of those little beep, beep, beep, and be told that you're calling the wrong dialing area.

It's 602 -274 -1360 here in the Phoenix area. And I believe that is probably the number that Jerry called. Hi, Jerry. How you doing? I cannot hear Jerry. And Rich cannot hear Jerry. And Jerry, hold on just one second there.

We'll bring you up in a moment. You're probably hearing me, but I'm not hearing you. Is Jerry gone? There's Jerry. Hey, Jerry. Sorry about that. Hi, Dr. White.

How you doing, sir? Yes. I just want to ask you, do you know The Openness of God by Clark Pinnock? Yes, I do. Do you think that is a distortion of the truth? I think it's heresy. How's that?

It's not just a distortion of the truth. I suppose all heresies are, in one way or another, a distortion of truth. I mean, there's very few heresies that are just simply a black-and-white denial of the propositions of Scripture.

But Clark Pinnock left the Christian faith a long time ago, sadly. He now embraces a viewpoint that is, for all intents and purposes, process theology. The idea that God is growing and changing and evolving and learning.

And as such, such a theology has no connection to the biblical God, who is the creator of all things and who, in fact, uses the fact that He is the creator, the maker of all things, who has perfect knowledge, the creator of past, present, and future, as the chief argument against idolatry throughout the Old Testament.

And so I do not believe you can fit the concept of a growing, evolving God, who is changing and who is either voluntarily or by necessity limited His knowledge of future events, and is instead, like us, moving through time with the biblical presentation of what prophecy is, of the entirety of the Gospel presentation.

It is not surprising at all to me that Clark Pinnock has both abandoned the Reformed understanding of salvation as well as the biblical doctrine of God, because the two go hand-in-hand. Thank you so much, sir.

Okay, well, thanks for calling.

Dr. White? Yes, go ahead. Would you tell us where you got your doctorate?

Columbia Evangelical Seminary in Longview, Washington. Thank you. You're most welcome. Bye-bye. 602 -274 -1360. 1 -888 -550 -1360 is the phone number. And you might say, well, that was blunt. Well, we tend to be blunt.

I don't think there's any reason to... You know, it's amazing as we're watching the political season develop here in the United States. It is amazing to me the fact that in the culture around us, if you speak the truth directly, and you have to say... if someone lies about you, if you dare call them a liar, you're the one that's wrong, but it's okay if they lied about you.

It's okay to lie, but it's not okay to point out that someone's lying. This whole world is absolutely upside down. I mean, I noticed this week the story, and I'll get back to the catechism here in a second, but I noticed the story that broke yesterday, that a man has been arrested and is being charged with sexual conduct with a minor in regards to the situation last August where the very young girl, I believe her age was 14 years of age, was sent off by some judge that will eventually have to answer for this before God, the judge of all mankind, to Kansas City, or to Kansas, to have her baby murdered.

That's called an abortion. And now they've arrested the guy who was the father of the child. Think about that for just a moment. The man who fathers the child is going to be punished for sexual conduct with a minor, but the very system that will punish him made it possible for the murder of the child.

Is that brilliant, or is that brilliant? I mean, talk about perversion. The whole nation has gone nuts. It's lost its mind. But anyways, that is a completely different subject, and I just thought I'd mention that in passing.

But yes, indeed, we are fairly straightforward in what we have to say, and I do not believe that Dr. Pinnock's denial of the nature of grace, his denial of the fundamentals, the doctrine of salvation, his denial of the omniscience of God, his denial of the eternality of God, God's existence outside of time, are orthodox in any way, shape, or form.

And I would simply invite anyone to see, even 15 years ago, when Dr. Pinnock wrote in the Basinger, Basinger book on four views of predestination and free will, even there, Dr. Pinnock's deep dislike and hatred of the Reformed position, and in fact, I would argue, the biblical view of God, comes through in his every word.

I mean, it is striking to read that and to compare what he says with what you find in Scripture. Now, I just read to you a section from the Catholic Catechism that says, this last term is not restrictive, but contrasts the whole of humanity with the unique person of the Redeemer, who hands himself over to save us.

Now, it says, Christ hands himself over to save us. The church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men, without exception. So, if language means something, then the assertion is, Christ died for all men, to save all men.

And then they have the quote, there is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer. So, the idea then is that Christ dies in behalf of everyone, and yet, is everyone saved?

Well, there certainly are a large number of universalists now, within what calls itself Roman Catholicism. There are many Roman Catholics who believe that everyone will be saved, that every single person eventually will inherit eternal life.

But, the Catechism talks about hell. The Catechism talks about a place of eternal punishment, and it specifically says that those who do not die in a state of grace, those who commit mortal sin, which is purposeful, knowledgeable rebellion against God, will end up in hell.

Now, I can understand how some people are trying or working very hard to get to the point of saying, well, no one is going to end up doing that. I mean, how could a Buddhist knowingly rebel against God's will without any revelation of what God's will is?

In fact, I could almost see an argument being developed eventually, that says it's better not to proclaim the Bible to anyone, because then they can't, with knowledge, reject God's law, and therefore no one could ever end up in hell.

So, it's an amazing thing when theologies evolve and change over time. But the point remains, the Catechism right now still teaches the existence of hell and eternal punishment. So the question is, and this is the same question that must be asked of evangelicals, if Christ hands himself over to save us, and if he does so for every single human being, as section 605 of the Catholic Catechism says, then why does he fail?

Oh, well, it's because of us. So, in other words, the death of Christ, in and of itself, cannot save anyone. It only opens the door, it only makes this reservoir of grace available, so that we can then, through the sacraments of the Church, bring about our own salvation.

And that is really what you end up encountering in the presentation found here in the Catholic Catechism. Section 617 says, The Council of Trent emphasizes the unique character of Christ's sacrifice as, quote, the source of eternal salvation, end quote, and teaches that his most holy passion on the will of the cross merited justification for us.

Now, you hear those two phrases? The source of eternal salvation and the death of Christ merited justification for us. Notice, it does not save anyone, it does not justify anyone, it instead becomes a source, and it merits justification.

How, then, does one obtain salvation? How, then, does one experience justification? Through the sacraments of the Church. Christ's death saves no one. Instead, it merits justification, or more specifically, the grace of justification, which then comes to us through the sacraments of the Church.

Comes to us through the labor of regeneration in baptism, as the Council of Trent expressed it. Comes to us through the sacrament of penance, and re-justification after the commission of a mortal sin, etc., etc.

So there is this huge reservoir that is merited by the death of Christ, and then we tap into that by our activities. That is exactly what the Reformers reacted against. And they said, no, no, no, it is not a matter of Christ merely making salvation a possibility that is then left up to us to actuate through our works.

Whether it be many works, constant pilgrimages, constant attendance at Mass, constant confession to the priest, constant giving of alms to the poor, whatever it might be. You can have a long list, or a short list, it didn't matter.

The whole idea is, if you have a list of things that you have to add to the work of Christ, then you're opposed to the Reformation, and I would argue you're opposed to the Gospel message itself. And yet, if we are honest with ourselves, that's exactly what we see being presented, not only in the Catholic Catechism, but we see it being presented in evangelical churches all across our land today.

Mainly by individuals who are not aware of the fact that they are, by teaching this kind of theology, this kind of doctrine, buying into the very lie that had once held all of Europe in its grasp, and it was the proclamation of the Gospel of God's free grace.

The sovereignty of God that had freed Europe and broke the yoke of Rome and most of those who have gone back to that viewpoint are unaware of the historical reality of where they are actually standing and why they are in fact standing there.

In fact, it's interesting, once you start this kind of error, I just happened to notice this passage in passing today, it's section 725 of the Catechism. Listen to this, you want to talk about the role of the Holy Spirit in salvation?

I was specifically looking for a discussion of the relationship of regeneration in faith and things like that. And listen to section 725, it says, Finally, through Mary, the Holy Spirit begins to bring men the objects of God's merciful love into communion with Christ.

Did you hear that? Finally, through Mary, the Holy Spirit begins to bring men the objects of God's merciful love into communion with Christ. Is that amazing? Through Mary! The Holy Spirit acts through Mary, who is called the Immaculata in much of Roman Catholic theology today, the Immaculate One, through whom the Holy Spirit works.

That's why there is an entire section on Mary that comes up beginning with section 963 in the Catechism. If you are ever told by someone, Well, no, the Church doesn't really still believe all that stuff.

Just go get the Catholic Catechism. There's no doubt about the fact that this book is specifically written, this entire Catechism is specifically written to make the best presentation possible of Roman Catholic beliefs.

In other words, it is phrased in such a way that you won't find some of the most egregious statements of maybe the Council of Trent, or even well before that, the Council of Florence, and the Fourth Lateran Council, and things like that, or the teaching that was prevalent at the time of the Reformation.

You won't find that kind of strong terminology, but you still find the theology if you know how to look for it. But all of that leads to the section on the Mass, which begins as Article 3, Section 1322 of the Catholic Catechism.

And it is a fairly lengthy section, because from the Roman Catholic viewpoint, the Eucharist is the central aspect of the worship of the Christian Church. The celebration of the liturgy of the Eucharist is extremely important in Roman Catholic teaching.

And yet it is in the process of discussing this sacrificial memorial of Christ, as they describe it, that we have so many of the most incredible statements that are found here regarding this. And specifically, before we take our break, I'd like to direct your attention to 1364, which says, In the New Testament, the memorial takes on new meaning.

When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, she commemorates Christ's Passover, and it is made present. The sacrifice of Christ, offered once for all on the cross, remains ever present. As often as the sacrifice of the cross, by which Christ, our Pash, has been sacrificed, is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out.

That was from Vatican II, the final section. The assertion that as often as the sacrifice of the cross is celebrated on the altar, that is the altar of the Roman Catholic Church, the work of our redemption is carried out.

And so you have this assertion that the work of Christ is an ongoing work, that through the representation of this one sacrifice, you have an ongoing work of redemption taking place, that that's why the Mass is a propitiatory sacrifice.

But what is truly amazing is that there is a note attached to the following section. When it says she commemorates Christ's Passover, and it is made present, the sacrifice Christ offered once for all on the cross remains ever present.

And what they mean is through the sacrament of the Eucharist. There's a little note attached. There's all sorts of notes in here. And what is attached, number 183, is the only reference that I have found in this whole section to the book of Hebrews, chapters 7 -10.

And of course you know that Hebrews 7 -10 is the main battleground where we have the clear biblical teaching of the perfection of the work of Christ. And specifically they make reference to Hebrews 7 .25 -27, which says,.

Therefore he is able to save forever those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens, who does not need daily like those high priests to offer up sacrifices, first for his own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this he did once for all when he offered up himself.

They actually have the nerve to cite that passage and attach it to the assertion that through the Eucharistic sacrifice the single sacrifice of Christ is always made present in the church. Well, I have much more that I want to say about that, but our time is running out for this section.

602 -274 -1360 is the number. 1 -888 -550 -1360. I'd like to hear from you today. Get online and we'll be right back. And welcome back to The Dividing Line on a beautiful Saturday afternoon. It's already starting to warm up out there.

Why do I get the feeling it's going to be a very long and warm summer? I just don't think that the last summer is really over with yet. That's the problem. We're just going to pack two of them into a row and see if any of us can survive it.

I think that's how we're going to work it out. We're looking at a number of citations from the Catholic Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church. At least, you've got to admit, if you're a Roman Catholic, we're reading the right stuff anyhow, the stuff that the church itself is putting out.

And I had just made reference to the fact that in section 1364, we read, In the New Testament, the memorial takes on new meaning. When the church celebrates the Eucharist, she commemorates Christ's Passover, and it is made present.

The sacrifice Christ offered once for all on the cross remains ever present. How? In the Roman Catholic theology, it remains ever present through the Eucharistic sacrifice on the altar. But interestingly enough, there's two other errors here, and by the way, I just simply point out that this indicates, this proves, that the Roman Catholic Church is not infallible in regards to its interpretation of Scripture.

Here is a gross misapplication of Hebrews 7, verses 25 through 27. It simply ignores the context, and in fact, makes it say the exact opposite of what it really says, and that is, it reduces the finished work of Christ to something that is represented upon an altar, that has a limited effect.

And yet, Hebrews 7, verse 25 says, He is able to save to the uttermost, or completely, or forever, those who draw near to God through Him. Now, that cannot be said of the Roman Catholic Mass. The person who approaches God through the sacrifice of the Mass cannot say, I have been saved completely.

That's why you have to keep going to the Mass over, and over, and over, and over again, because it does not save completely. So here's a passage that should, upon the most initial examination of it, cause a person to go, well, wait a minute.

If we're trying to promote the idea that the Mass is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and it's to be done over and over again, and it only has a limited application, only a limited effect upon those who draw near, why in the world would we cite a passage that isn't talking about some representation of the one sacrifice of Christ, but is in fact saying that Christ dies once, and because He ever lives to make an accession for those for whom He dies, He is able to save.

Well, because in the religions of men, you cannot have a Savior who can save, and save perfectly. That's the issue. The second error is that in the preceding section, it was talking about the Old Testament and the memorial of the Old Testament.

The problem was, if they would allow the New Testament to define its own terminology, Hebrews chapter 10 tells us that there was a memorial, and in remembrance in the Old Testament, it was the old sacrifices.

Hebrews chapter 10 says that in those repetitive sacrifices there is an anamnesis, a reminder of sins year by year. The anamnesis, the reminder in the New Covenant, is the Lord's Supper. But it's not a reminder of sin, it's a reminder of a Savior who has saved us from the power of sin.

But again, since Roman Catholicism doesn't have a finished work, and doesn't have a Savior who can actually save, monergistically, not synergistically, then that belief is abandoned, and you have this idea of a memorial between the two.

Well, so much for the infallible magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church. It doesn't understand the teaching of Scripture on such vital and important issues. Well, I've been gone for a couple of weeks, and so I haven't had the opportunity, the joyous experience, of talking to Dennis in Phoenix.

Hi Dennis! Howdy! Now Dennis, I need to say something right up front. Alright. There will be no comments about the previous week's programs.

Okay? Can I make a positive comment? Sure, go ahead. It was a delight to find that best of was...

Hey, if they can do it on... What's his face? Who's the guy on Channel 5? Not the Tonight Show. Late Night. David Letterman. If he can just do reruns all the time, we can too. Yeah, I don't like that cartoonist.

No, okay. But yeah, it was a delight to find... The reason it was so unfamiliar to me was it was totally ancient.

Oh, really? You mean you called even when you didn't call? That's amazing. I was on the air, and I was calling, and I wasn't even calling. That's frightening. That truly is a frightening thing. Anyways, what's your comment on the subject today, Dennis?

Oh, you got me to look in at Hebrews 7 -11. I'm just skimming through. I'm not even really close, but I just... You know, 928. So Christ also has been offered once to bear the sins of many. Will appear a second time on a Roman Catholic altar?

No. For salvation without reference to sin. Those who eagerly await Him.

Well, the whole... Chapters 7 -10 provide such an incredible testimony to one fact, and that is a sacrifice that must be repeated. A sacrifice that does not, in its initial appearance, perfect those for whom it's made is an inferior sacrifice.

And the fact that Rome teaches that you can approach the Mass, which they say is the same sacrifice of Christ. That's how they deal with all these things. The standard Roman Catholic response to what you just said would be, Oh, Dennis, you just don't understand.

We are not re-sacrificing Jesus. There is not a second sacrifice. It is just a re-presentation of the one sacrifice of Christ. But the problem, of course, is you can approach that one sacrifice of Christ 5 ,000, 10 ,000, 15 ,000 times during your life and still commit a mortal sin before you die and go to hell.

Which means you've come to the sacrifice of Christ and you are not perfected thereby. But you can see what the problem with that is. Because if you teach that the sacrifice of Christ actually perfects those for whom it is made, then you have to answer the question, Well, if it is made in behalf of all men, why then are not all men saved?

So since evangelicalism is afraid to affirm the perfection of the work of Christ on the cross for the sake of having to abandon its Madison Avenue style of evangelism, the result, therefore, is that we have to back off of this divine truth and end up agreeing with Rome that Christ's death only makes us savable.

It doesn't actually save.

Well, you know, you've got to be able to say God loves you and have a wonderful plan for your life even if the fact with a given person that God hates you is going to throw you into hell.

Well, I remember seeing a tract at a church a number of years ago that said instead of smile, God loves you, is mourn, God hates you. And really, the more I've been considering it, the more I was mentioning, well, I'm not sure who I was mentioning it to, maybe I was just thinking about it during a workout recently, but historically, up until the time of Finney, around that period of time, the message, the preached message was God commands men everywhere to repent.

And your main concern was not what will I do with Christ? Your main concern was what will Christ do with me? And the message was do not delay the day of salvation. Your only possibility of hope is to throw yourself upon the mercy of God and pray that he will be merciful to you.

This idea of man being in control of his destiny and man bossing God around simply was unknown. But it fits with our modern humanistic age and that's what brings quote-unquote success, but it doesn't bring godly living and it doesn't bring a biblical presentation of the gospel.

I can tell you pews, but a lot of people in those pews aren't going to the right place. That's right, that's very true.

Well, Dennis, it's good to hear from you. It was very cold back in New York. It really was, but we had a wonderful time preached on the five solas of the Reformation while I was gone and that was really, really, really enjoyable.

Well, good to have you back. Okay, thanks a lot, Dennis. Bye-bye. 602 -274 -1360. 1 -888 -550 -1360. Let's see if we can squeeze Martin in here. Hi, Martin, how are you doing? Hi, James. Hey, you know, I heard that we got a call recently.

Someone was complaining that we needed to look for new callers other than Dennis and Martin. Oh, well, I'll stop calling then. No, I'm not. And I felt like saying, well, call in and have something worthwhile to say and all will be well.

Indeed, indeed. So, anyhow, how are things across the pond?

A bit cold, James, just hearing you talk about New York. Probably slightly colder here, probably.

Well, you know, I don't know what the temperature's going to be today. I think it's going to be about 77 or something along those lines, and it is... I tell you, I walked out last night about 10 .30 at night and needed to check something in my truck and I didn't have any shoes on.

And I could walk on the pavement and it was absolutely... I mean, there wasn't a bit of cold in it. It was probably 65 degrees. It was beautiful, so... My goodness. Well, think about it sometime there, big guy.

It's a beautiful place to live. I do think about it, James, especially when it's cold or snowing. Yes, indeed. I might have to do a defined snow for you, Arizonians.

Well, I experienced it, believe me. I saw my first blizzard in a long time and it was quite the experience. But anyways, speaking of the Catholic Catechism and the Catholic Church... Yes.

Two things, really. You were talking earlier, you said that Christ died for every individual in the Catechism. How, then, do they explain their... Well, it's hard to follow it... The extra-ecclesium, the losalis...

Well, you know, there is an entire section on that and the study of that phrase, which for those who were not paying attention during Latin class means, outside the Church there is no salvation. The modern understanding of that has expanded tremendously.

And for some Roman Catholics... In fact, someone asked me that question just recently and I forget exactly where that description is found. I was reading it just this morning. It's earlier on in the Catechism.

But anyways, someone had asked recently in the chat room about that very issue and I said, well, in 1200 it meant you had to be a baptized Roman Catholic to be saved. In the year 2000 it means you have to breathe to be saved.

I mean, there are... for some Roman Catholics today... and even the Catechism specifically refers to Muslims as a part of God's plan of salvation. That the plan of salvation includes the Muslim people.

And so, how that works with the assertion of the necessity of sacramental grace and the necessity of not committing a mortal sin... It is really a complicated thing anymore. It's no wonder that you can find so many different takes today on the issue of what Roman Catholics really believe on this issue.

And that doesn't surprise me,.

That Rome shifts and changes. What does surprise me is people who are generally... if you read their work, generally Orthodox, like J .I. Packer, and then going out and signing ECT. How does that happen?