Continuing the Lynn/Spong Discussion

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

Opening the Program and Surveying the Day's Topics

And good afternoon, welcome to the dividing line we continue on with well with your phone calls if you insist at 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 as Well as the various topics we have been addressing for a while now.

We have been listening to an interview between Barry Lynn and John Shelby spong and I also have some Discussion from mr. Martin Yoni, and I also took time to look back while attempting to get my Stereo system to play nicely with my computer and it just won't.

I've got it in the input thing and it's just like there's no Line-in thing on my thing it did. I don't know why there's no line in I don't there's a place for it. It says it should be there and it's not there.

I'm sort of frustrated. I don't know where it went. But anyway, well, we'll find it. I'm not sure where we'll find it, but we'll find it and while I was doing that I happened to Be listening around and going way back about well, it is the eighth month now about about seven months or so ago.

We had been at that time sort of struggling a little bit because of the audio quality, but we had been listening to some Sadly in my opinion the most popular. Some of the comments the most popular Islamic apologist in history and I'm not talking about Shabir Ali.

I'm not talking about Jamal Badawi. I'm talking of course about one with you if you went online right now and start looking at Islamic bookstores if you start looking at what's available on on VHS and DVD and CD and everything else still by far the most popular Islamic apologist at least of our time, of course was on a DDot and Probably because DDot was a good speaker in the sense that he is entertaining to listen to.

He's not monotone. He's not going to put you to sleep you can tell that he he has a sense of humor and sometimes he sounds like your old grandpa and. But in reality in comparison to others Just on a simple scholarly level DDot was was horrific.

He was terrible made error after error after error, but unfortunately. For whatever reason his material is widely Distributed and therefore if you want to be prepared to speak to an individual influenced by or a part of the Islamic religion and Though the number of Muslims in the United States is fairly small.

We have listeners in the United Kingdom. We have listeners in Europe and at the rate that your folks is birth rates are going. The the Muslims aren't going to have to fight you for your countries. They're just going to be able to take over in about two generations.

Because you're having so few children in some of your countries there will be half as many of you in one generation as there are now and So They're not even gonna have to worry. They can just sort of you know.

Start taking everything over and that's all there's gonna be that so anyway the opportunity of If you happen to be in the situation where you have the opportunity of Without losing your life or maybe even at that Giving the answer for the faith that is within you you need to be prepared to give that answer.

And so we'll be listening to some more of the DDot material as well. Just gonna be throwing out one of his alleged contradictions just examining because he's not the only one who makes this this assertion I found somewhat ironic that the exam the particular alleged contradiction.

We're gonna look at today from DDot is a common area of misunderstanding and in fact Tim Warner who I have been reviewing on my blog with the pristine restoration faith, whatever it is progressive Dispensationalist John six stuff of a kneeling.

He pretty much makes the same kind of a kind of an error. From a different perspective, but that's on the same subject. So we'll be taking a look at that as well on the program today. So let's start off with the one that has the best sound quality.

That's how you organize your your your your your discussion by what has the best sound quality and the best sound quality happens to be the Discussion between Barry Lynn and John Shelby Spong mainly because have you noticed at least I can hear you probably can't heard of real audio.

You could pry on the mp3, but I can hear Barry Lynn doing stuff over the microphone because the the balance really wasn't overly good between Lennon and Spong so I can sort of hear him getting ready to talk and stuff like that I couldn't hear that while I was riding, but I can hear it now.

It's interesting when you got headsets on but let's continue with with their discussion.

Barry Lynn and John Shelby Spong on Scripture, Canon, and Inclusive Religion

Talking to the former Bishop of Newark, New Jersey John Shelby Spong a spong the author of the new book the sins of Scripture. You know Bishop you were talking about how you got a humanist award. Actually we have one thing in common.

I also as you may or may not know I'm among other things a minister in the United Church of Christ. I was aware of you.

I was worried that when I put my notes down that I had skipped the section. Because this this thing reads out only where the start is not where your finish is and I didn't check it. I apologize to all of you who are going we already heard that and now you're gonna have to listen to the Ye olde skip down the road because remember he was a how can you believe in God type of a thing?

Religious faith. The fastest growing organization in the Christian West there. We go the Church Alumni Association. I think that's a drop out of organized religion every day. To Into no religion because it no longer makes sense.

We still assume things and the way we tell the Christian story that Modern people if they think about it can't assume. The earth is not the center of the universe. God does not live just above the sky.

Human beings were not created perfect only. Yes, and you know we listened to it listen to all that. Okay now. And now I'm feeling really embarrassed because how far I didn't think I could have gotten that far.

Really do it until first of all the Protestant Reformation, okay? Here we are. And then secularism grew out of okay. They're Protestant Reformation, and that knows itself again to make.

Progress in this world. Well, how do you let me ask you this in Bishop? I mean, there's no doubt that when you look at the at the Christian Bible, okay here. We go all right.

Take us off what we got there. This is what I've been saying before. This is where evidently one of Barry Lynn's least favorite text in the whole Bible is John 14 6 and. Huh I have no idea who's he. I.

Don't know who that is. Sorry if you look at the way in which in general women are Characterized in both the New and the Old Testament. This is an unhealthy view. There are exceptions. And you can find them in both the current sets of Chronicles.

But and the truth is this is not a pro Feminist tract and some of the some of the Gospels it could have been included that might have been a little more friendly toward women. Excluded and you find them in in obscure collections of other works now.

Let me stop right there.

You know what he's referring to there, and you you heard this at the beginning when he was talking about the canon of Scripture. He's talking about the Gnostic Gospels, so. Remember Barry Lynn thinks that he's just as inspired as Paul was.

So man talk about a Plato canon. That's that's what he's doing, so how do you. How do you?

Transcend that. How do you say? This is a question. I'm asked a lot myself. I mean How do you say well? We'll we'll accept certain principles of the Bible as true and accurate and a guide for the common good and a common life.

But but some of it. We just are going to have to get over.

Get over. I guess I guess that's that's Barry Lynn's way of saying to to Christianity get over that Offensive stuff in the Bible just to get over it get rid of it. That's a an ordained minister speaking, so we all need to listen very careful when I was writing the sins of Scripture.

I don't like to be just negative so after I analyze all these dreadful Texts of the Bible that we've used to hurt people. Then I take a whole section of the final section of the book and try to say okay.

What is there about the Bible that is worthwhile?

I think. So what is there it's worthwhile in this thing? We need to spend some time trying to figure that out after I've ripped and shredded the whole thing and that's when I start by.

Saying it begins with a tribal mentality where God hates everybody that the tribe hates. But it doesn't stop there. You get into the prophets where you begin to get a concept of the love of God in Hosea.

That's really profound. Then you get a concept of human justice from the prophet Amos.

As if this isn't in Moses talk about a complete mystery, but again, how do they do that? We need them. I know we need to understand where they're coming from how can he say this? With a straight face well, it's so real simple.

There is no Moses. There is no Moses. See you've got it. You've got to understand from their perspective. Scholarship whatever in the world that is has determined there. There is there is no Moses. So you can't look back at those you might have had some prophets by those names, but Moses is clearly a heavily redacted work of many many people much much later, so that's why they can look at that and if you find something in Hosea that you like a Redemptive kind of love a forgiving kind of love if you find it in Moses.

You just simply say well that's coming from the same thing that really wasn't back there in Moses. And so you can create this artificial. Well you move from tribal God to now the prophets blah blah blah type of thing.

Which is what you're hearing right now? And if that's not what you're used to hearing as many evangelicals or not then you might be going. What's he talking about but once you embrace this kind of of liberal theology that is sadly prevalent.

And rarely challenged though it is highly challengeable. Then you're stuck with that in fact. I just in in passing Groaned this morning. I was working on my computer in the in the kitchen and There's reason I had to sort of stay a little bit later today at the house, and I the today show at the beginning had a discussion about how certain Evangelical Christians believe that events in the Middle East right now are the sign of the the approach of Armageddon.

And I'm just rolling my eyes going. Oh, no. What's this gonna be about and. So guess who their pride the primary guy well almost the only guy well Let's put this way they sort of interviewed as far as having any meaning to people.

The evangelical Christian was John Hagee. That was oh yeah, that's there's Hagee Hagee's and he's talking about Israel, and he's talking about. You know Ezekiel 38 and 39 which used to be you know Russia's leading down all these Arab nations against Israel, and this could be the beginning of that and all that stuff and then.

To have the opposite side it came up with some liberal woman preachers some place. It's just like oh, yeah, that's that's mmm. Okay. All right. That's good. There was no discussion whatsoever of other viewpoints outside of a really strange dispensational pre-millennial.

Pre-tribulational I mean just you know. You can't blame them I mean most Christians can't keep the various eschatology straight. Certainly nobody at today's show can and they are probably walking down a frozen food aisle like I have a few times have you ever found?

The left-behind series in the frozen food aisle I have seriously at Safeway over over here. It's Safeway if you if you go down to the end cap of the frozen food aisle. There's almost always one of the left-behind novels, and it's very cold there.

That's just not sure why in the world there. But if that's all they've ever run into then that's what they figure it's all about and they probably don't know that there are considerably less wild eyed Viewpoints eschatology then what you find the frozen food aisle.

It's a we get in the prophet Micah the idea that it's not how you worship. But how you live that really makes the difference. And then you finally get Malachi the last book of the Old Testament. Where he says from the rising of the Sun to its setting my name shall be great among the Gentiles.

That is the tribal identity begins to break down and you begin to see all of humanity. And then you're able to come into the Christ story where he says you've got to love your enemies. You've got to bless those who persecute now.

You're you're you listen to this and you're and you're going. Well at least he's not completely. You know every page is ripping out of the Bible. Of course he ends up with something about the size of Thomas Jefferson had.

But so and you're listening to this, but I'm listening to Barry Lynn breathing. And the reason I'm doing that is because I know. That in if it's possible Barry Lynn is actually far as the left and spong is.

Remember that interview. I did last year. With that that one fat one prophecy fellow. And it was the one time the Dave Hunt's been on with me. Since our book came out and he didn't know he was gonna be on me.

And you could tell he was just as mad as a wet hand and at the end of the interview. When the issue of eternal security came up the interviewer ended up actually being more or he was disappointed with Dave Hunt because he was more a minion the Dave Hunt was and I ended up being on his program.

Just he and I discussed it later on and had some interesting conversations about and things like that. But that's sort of what you got going on here if you can if you can believe it Barry Lynn is actually farther out and and and wants to blast the Bible even more than Bishop John Shelby.

Spong so that gives you some idea of the.

Sort of the spectrum. Here you and you can have the earliest written writing disciple of Jesus Paul who says once you get inside the Christ experience You know that there is no longer Jew or Greek male or female bond or free.

That's a tremendous movement. And I think what we've done is to literalize the text in such a way that you can't see this dynamic. Transcendent movement from tribal religion into universalism from a punitive God into an ultimate God of love.

And I look at the cross and I don't see it as the sacrifice that God makes to overcome the sin of the world. I see it as the picture of human life. So complete and so whole that he can give his life away.

He can accept whatever abuse is placed upon him and he responds by loving.

That's the portrait of the God that I see in Christ and it's a now stop right there again. For spong you you have this this view of the Atonement if you can even you know. The term Atonement really doesn't carry much meaning here, but but if mankind is just Not fully human yet then all the cross really does is show you how to be more fully human say and.

And you understand that you may be going How can anyone believe that. But you need to understand that that's where he's coming from at this particular point in time. So you can you can at least understand what he's saying you you need to learn.

Everybody needs to learn this because I've seen I've seen a lot of conservative folks. They they don't have this skill. They almost feel like they're somehow being Disrespectful or or Unfaithful to the truth if you listen to someone speaking falsehood and you listen well enough to know why they're saying it.

If you actually try to get inside their worldview and understand where they're coming from well, I can't do that I mean that's just so wrong that I came and listen to this and I can't I can't understand that and there are some People who just shouldn't be listening these people at all and should never be talking to these folks.

But hopefully you're in minority and probably shouldn't be listening this program if you are, but anyway that's sort of the You need to hear what he's saying why he's saying it and understand it and His view of the Atonement we need to hear it.

But then I'm be able to contrast that of course with what the scripture writers themselves.

Had to say I think makes sense in this world today.

And it's a it's a portrait that is in a sense none. It's not fully painted.

I'd say and in the Bible that it's probably Christians made as we close the Bible. We act as if God hadn't spoken since the second Peter was written about 135.

You know, I find it very controversial when I'm to catch that catch that second peer 135, you know, what evidence do you have that? Well, it's all redaction critical thinking and but you know. You accept it and you'd call that scholarship and anything that disagrees it or would dare to question it is automatically not scholarship.

Talking to some.

Evangelical conservatives to suggest that God could still be speaking that that is almost as shocking as a position I might take and in regard to gay rights or the separation of church and state. I.

Wondered when I heard that think about for just a second this man. This man tried to keep us from distributing my debate with him on homosexuality and in that debate He specifically claimed that he was inspired in the same way that Paul was and he said Galatians was over-the-top and it wasn't canonical and blah blah blah and I just I just have to wonder if maybe.

Just maybe there was a flash in his mind of just a moment of that that most unpleasant experience. Long Island, I don't know but I just had that strange feeling when I heard that see what you what you're tapping into is not.

People's knowledge you're tapping into their fear. Now. There's an enormous amount of insecurity in this world. You know in my mother's lifetime. My mother died at 92 just a couple years ago. But in her lifetime she watched this world go from horse and buggy travel to space travel.

That's a lot for one life to absorb and we've gone from being isolated to being connected on the Internet. There's been an enormous Making small of this world and people are very anxious and very fearful and.

All sorts of identity crises are going on and I think that's why we in a reactionary period and I think we'll get through it. Because we always go through reactionary periods when enormous change takes place and it takes we can't process at all.

We'll get through that but in the meantime, we can do enormous damage. And I think the war in Iraq which has overtones of another crusade against certainly does people of the world and.

Homophobic stuff that's going on in this country. There's just hold on just a second I'm sorry, but to try to try to make a connection between the Crusades and. What's going on the Middle East right now?

Wow, what a massive reach that ignores so many factors. It's not even it. I mean you just left you just left going. What? To talk about a complete destruction of history there.

Whoa, my Constitution which I really honor my Constitution has been amended a number of times and every Amendment was to expand freedom for more people. If we can now take that Constitution and use it to deny Freedom and justice to a significant group of people then we need to remember that yesterday today's Majority won't always be the same to have a majority.

You gotta make us the victor you now.

I assume he's referring of course there to the issue of Defining marriage and once again, once again, you have this is the the standard form of argumentation of the the radical left. Everybody knows what marriage has always been everybody knows the founders thought marriage was it's not even an issue.

You can't debate it there's there's no way to even argue this and so what you do is instead of Bearing the burden of proving your point you phrase it like it was just phrased there we we've always wanted to just expand freedom expand freedom seeing and and so and it's just like oh my Goodness that's just sort of how how things work with these folks.

Well, we don't need to hear the pretty guitar music. No.

John Shelby Spong on the Historical Jesus, the Gospels, and Portraits of Christ

Okay, we are back. This is Barry Lynn and my guest is a former Bishop of Newark, New Jersey John Shelby Spong. You may have read some of his other books like Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism his new book just out from Harper's San Francisco the sins of Scripture exposing the Bible's texts of hate to reveal the God of love.

And the idea of this book is that there's plenty of To be found in the Bible words that seem to be quite shocking sexist homophobic antisemitic, but that maybe when one looks at the Bible entirely and looks at the other sources of understanding what God's intentions are.

Maybe some of these sentences like No one comes to the father, but by me there you go. See I knew we were getting to John 14 6 eventually.

He does not like that and It is interesting to listen to them try to dance around this and find something around there that's that's worthwhile to them. Let's just face it. The the exclusive claims of Christ are rejected by both these men who call themselves Christians is not just a statement of religious bigotry.

But in fact it opens up a broader conversation. Bishop one of the things about the Bible and and about thinking about Jesus. I was really appalled at the film the passion of the Christ and you're talking to somebody who goes to Karate movies and wants to like them.

I like the experience of films and I wanted to like it, but I couldn't for a number of reasons including this. Rigid sense that the filmmaker Mel Gibson understood everything about the nature of what Christ looked like.

Can you tell this is recorded before last week?

How he suffered. The truth is we don't. In spite of all the historians searching for the so-called historical Jesus we don't know a lot about this man Jesus. We have snapshots of him in the Gospels that are found in the Bible, but without CNN and MSNBC and Heaven help us even the Fox News Channel.

We don't know. Nearly as much as some people assume we know about what this man said or how he conducted himself.

Now again, if you've listened to my debate with Barry Lynn, you've heard this before. One of the the fundamental approaches is to say well, you know what? While you're wrong and what you say the Bible says in reality most of us don't have a clue.

What the Bible is all about we really don't know anything about Jesus. Most this stuff. You're reading the New Testament isn't about Jesus in the first place has been made up. No one really knows. And see once you can convince someone that they don't really know.

That they don't really have a foundation to stand on that. They don't have any way of really addressing something. You can mute them. You can you can make them shut up and be quiet and accept multiple different perspectives if we just don't know.

Enough to be able to say anything intelligently. And that's in essence what they're arguing here.

Oh, it's very true. The overwhelming probability since it's not a single detail in the Gospels. It describes any physical characteristic of Jesus. The overwhelming probabilities. He looked like a Middle Eastern Semitic man of today.

Which it means that brown skin and black hair. And he probably was not very tall because the average Average height of a Semitic person in the first century is between five five and five seven probably weighed between 120 and 140 pounds.

He probably could not have entered into public places in the south where I grew up. There goes the South again. Need to understand. You mentioned snapshots though. Barry, let me suggest another image.

I don't think. I think that's where the problem comes. We think of the Bible as tape recordings of things Jesus said and photographs of what he actually did. I think we need to see Matthew Mark Luke and John.

As for portraits painted by Jewish artists. Trying to interpret the power that they found present in this man Jesus. And you read a portrait very differently from the way you read a photograph. You stand in front of that portrait and you try to understand what the author of the of the work or the artist.

Who was painting the canvas. What he saw in the character of the person? He's trying to describe in paint and that's a very different way. I think we've got to begin to learn to read the Bible in in that kind of fashion now.

Now just stop for a moment. And if you can if you can cut out The application that he makes there and what he said before if you're just to take that section and Say is there something that can be? Something positive you can take out of the idea of a portrait.

Sure, there is. I mean we've been teaching through the synoptic Gospels for quite some time at Phoenix form Baptist Church and When you do that You have to wrestle with and deal with the fact there are differences between The Gospels and how they express things and I've often mentioned the fact they have different audiences and therefore you're going to utilize different languages not languages language Terminology means of communicating with your particular audience and if you want to refer to that as a portrait in other words You have the author has the right to choose what kind of colors he's going to use and things like that.

Nothing wrong with that in of itself it's what they end up using that to do and that is to get around any kind of offensive teaching in the part of Christ or any kind of ability to make a harmonious whole as to the teachings of Christ you want to keep it so that you can just pick and choose what you want to Believe about what Jesus said and then limit that and say well, you know, I I'm just I just want I like this.

I'm not saying it's binding on you, but I happen to you know, personally like Jesus was also a revolutionary.

Jesus wasn't popular with the religious establishment of his day. And he certainly wasn't popular with the political establishment of his day and he overcame barriers. You know, he's the barrier between the Jew and the Gentile.

Jesus says things like you've got to go into all the world where the Gentiles live and proclaim the love of God for all people. That's a radical statement. Certainly is a tribal identity. He talked with the woman by the well.

He allowed Mary the sister of Martha to assume the stance of a rabbinic pupil to sit at his feet and learn.

And if you would just allow the Bible as a whole to speak for itself These would be great indications of the fact that Christianity from its very inception was radically different in regards to its view of women.

But you see once you just chop it up in little pieces, then you just can point these things out. But then you get over to Paul. Nasty Paul and Paul's mean women. Well, wait a minute isn't the Paul the one got quoted just a little bit ago.

Where is no male or female Jew or Gentile all one?

Hmm, that's so much for consistency things that you didn't. He had female disciples. It's amazing to me how the church has trouble dealing with that, but they're in the book and you can't get rid of them.

They become visible only when Jesus is arrested because all the men have forsaken him and fled. See not quite.

They're not invisible. There is a reference specifically to them providing support For the disciples and their ministry. That occurs before then but there's no question that they are not in the forefront of the gospel writing.

But they are referenced and they are there on the women.

But if you read Matthew Mark and Luke carefully You'll discover that all three say that these women have followed him all the way from Galilee. They've always been there where they were just invisible.

Again, not completely invisible. That's that this actually gets into an interesting section. I want to hold off on for the for the a future episode shall we say because you start getting into Lynn wanting him to make statements about whether there was Relationship between one of these women and Jesus and the Da Vinci stuff and all the rest that stuff.

So we will continue with that and we come back. Get on your your linguistic filter ears. Because it's not all that easy to listen to to Ahmad D dot. But we're going to take a shot at it and listen to one of his alleged biblical Contradictions.

I'll be right back.

Refuting Ahmad Deedat on John 17 and John 18

Today. And true. Quickly fall away.

Under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality. Even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior in Their book the same-sex controversy.

James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the Bible's teaching on the subject explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality. Including Genesis Leviticus and Romans Expanding on these scriptures.

They refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law in a straightforward and loving manner. They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people.

The same-sex controversy. Defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality. Get your copy in the bookstore at a omin org. This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church. The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day.

The morning Bible study begins at 930 a .m. And the worship service is at 1045. Evening services are at 630 p .m. On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix.

You can call for further information at 602 -26 grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at PR BC org. Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

And welcome back to the dividing line we are we are listening to various and sundry things today. It's sometimes the only way that well, certainly the only way we can do any debates with on a D dot anymore but you know We we are doing others that demonstrate that we can do that with folks that are still with us.

But like I said, it's been I believe I looked fairly closely. So I I think I'm accurate about this that the last time we dealt with Ahmed D dot was January 10th of this year and that was a while back and My my one of my problems is I'm looking at all these These sound files and I'm not sure which ones are which and where I was in which ones to see and that's it would be very very very very Difficult to sit there and listen to a dividing line and then listen to a bunch of sound files.

Oh, okay. This is here and that's there and So we're just doing the best we can and so I was listening to this particular discussion and I ran across this so I went ahead and queued up because as I mentioned if you've been reading the John 6 series that I'm doing right now and the last one the last.

Just the last blog article I did in the John 6. I think was number 3 took about 3 hours to do that. Why? Well part of it was just The writing but then once I tried to post it I kept getting XML parse errors.

Which had never happened before in my blogging software and so a bunch of folks were looking at it and they were trying to find this Unformed something or something or Token and I'm not well formed token.

I think it's what he was saying. Like oh great some some geek somewhere has been making this language up anyway. It took quite a while to get up there. I had to cut and paste it and do it all in line and it was it was a mess.

But if you've been reading that series, which I have invested a lot of time in then. You saw a little statement and we haven't gotten to it yet. But one of the arguments that Warner presents is that Jesus doesn't Save all those that are given to him.

So we can't read John 6 that way because of Judas and so it is common for people to to for some reason assume that the context of John 6 is the same as the context of John 17 at every point and John 18 at every point and.

And you know, you can give them you can cut in some slack because some reform folks do tend to quote I have not chosen you but you've. You've not chosen me, but I've chosen you and that's in the context of discipleship and apostleship there it's not in the context of anything else and so people, you know, sometimes on both sides will just assume a context that is not actually there and as a result Either create alleged contradiction, which is what DDOT is doing here or they will say see.