Paul Gottfried on the State of the Conservative Movement

We have someone actually we've had on the podcast before today a reoccurring guest who I respect very deeply and I appreciate his work. Especially in Chronicles magazine when I'm privileged to get that magazine at my home and that is dr. Paul Godfrey.

Dr. Godfrey, we appreciate you being on the podcast again to discuss conservatism. Thank you. Thank you for having me on again. My pleasure and you know We were just talking about Your life a little bit and you have 14 books that you've written as well scholarly articles.

There's an anthology coming out you can find all this on Amazon if anyone wants to go check out your work and you are still the editor-in-chief of Chronicles magazine, which is probably the only magazine that I Recommend people subscribe to not a lot of people get magazines anymore.

That's I think the only one I get so and I look forward to it, so thank you for joining us and I. The question today that after the Trump victory is What is conservatism? What does it mean? This was a question before Trump's victory, but Trump has an opportunity to I think Give his version of whatever that whatever the answer that question is now that he's in power essentially on the Republican Party.

So maybe the first thing before we even get there. Maybe your impressions of the election might just be good and what you think this means For the future and then we can get into that.

Trump’s Victory and the Limits of Optimism

Well, I my wife predicted that Trump would win despite the polls and I think Trafalgar Square was a Trafalgar polling. And it's that the that the person who leads it Robert Haley pointed out that very often polls are used not to reflect popular opinion, but to affect popular opinion and I think this is certainly true and I think that You know Trump's victory did not surprise me all that much.

I was happy that he was able to pull in the the Senate with him. He should have 53 seats that the Democrats Don't manage to defraud John McCormick of the seat that he won. They're visibly engaging in election denial in our state.

Which is something the Democrats do quite often which they accuse the Republicans of doing but the He should have 53 seats. I I hope that all of his cabinet picks get Get confirmed. But I doubt that Matt Gaetz will and I suspect that Tulsi Gabbard may have problems and the reason I say this is that my wife was watching the legacy media report this morning and I learned that Tulsi Gabbard is a very dangerous extremist.

Good Republicans like Lisa Murkowski Murkowski and Collins of Maine. What will try to keep from from destroying American intelligence? And and of course in the case of Matt Gaetz apparently he's a child molester and it's done all kinds of other things.

And it's probably a fascist. In fact the media will keep going after anyone who occupies the Attorney General's office and Until they get somebody who looks or it acts a bit like Merrick Garland. They certainly don't want there's no one anybody who's going to clean up That that Department of Government which was basically reconstructed under Obama.

Just just as he filled other other government agencies with with woke leftist. So We're gonna have problems. I think with some of the confirmations even if they get 53 votes in the Senate. Because some of those Republican votes I wouldn't trust I wouldn't trust Romney.

I wouldn't trust Collins Murkowski. They're probably a few others that are sort of leaning in the writer direction. But I you know, I think it is a welcome development that Trump won. I would not rule out the left coming back as I Indicated in a column for the Chronicles yesterday for our website.

Because they do control all the important social cultural its institutions in the United States and throughout the Western world so You know, this is a minor setback. I mean they'll scream bloody murder.

They're hysterical remain hysterical they'll try to undermine Trump's Administration, but they're hardly down-and-out and I remind people that You know that that they're only almost half the voting population of this country voted for Kamala Harris.

Who's probably the worst the most extreme? Radical leftist and the least qualified candidate for the presidency ever Nominated by a major party in this country as far as I can see. So I know a lot of people voted for her and it was sort of hard woke leftist and There are millions and millions of Americans and unfortunately, they are in dominant positions in education and media.

Why the Left Still Controls the Institutions

Yeah, I I've been joking and I've seen other people joking online about We're gonna get tired of winning and in all the Trump rhetoric and because it's exciting and and you know. It's like hey, we actually won something for once but you are bringing us down to reality and I it sounds like you're not quite as optimistic as some people are with this that you think this is a Bump in the road for the left that they're just going to continue.

Yes, I do.

You know having seen the Reagan victory in 1980 It didn't really change very much in this country in terms of domestic policy and the country just continued to move to the left. And if you remember President Reagan gave us that disastrous amnesty bill.

Yeah. And he did very little to change the to change the deep or the permanent state of the managerial state. Hardly anything. And yet he was vehemently hysterically pushed by the left. So You know, I I I'm waiting to see.

I remain a skeptic. I I would be delightfully surprised if President Trump doesn't does clean out the swamp.

Yeah, well, I'd love to see that so Coming back to the initial question about conservatism itself. I know that there's a lot of dissatisfaction today and Questions about what is conservatism actually conserve?

It doesn't seem like we're conserving anything. And I know you've had well, we were talking about this before we started recording. You've had a life of writing on this issue and and politics in general and You're not respected on the right as a political theorist not in the gate keeping institutions at least the the the prominent and legacy institutions, so maybe we can start there.

Why is it that people like yourself and others who write for Chronicles and Outlets like that. Why are they so feared and so ignored?

Gatekeeping, Exile, and the Conservative Movement

Yeah, I think ignored and despised. I think Mike might fit the situation better. Yeah, in my case, I mean it's been like over 40 years during which time the conservative movement has not only Tried to Marginalize me it has taken active steps in some cases to keep universities from hiring me to keep my books from being published.

I I've been smeared as a white nationalist smear probably as other things too. And I think this is typical of the way the conservative movement has operated at least since the 1980s and probably since the 1950s when it went after people who were not sufficiently hardline on the Cold War.

And I tell people the conservative movement is no more tolerant in the left that it attacks and I always cite myself as an example. And they've been everything they can they not only. They not only have kept my works from being known.

But they've done everything they can't but that you for even for even for publisher. They're their presses have never been willing to give me a contract. I was turned down by Regnery. I've been Turned down by by other conservative presses.

That won't touch anything counter books, which won't touch anything that I write. However, this is the books they could turn down land up being published by Princeton Cambridge Cornell University is a regular publisher of mine, but the conservative movement will not publish me.

And I'm kept out of just about all of their magazines. I am never invited to speak at most of their institutes with the exception of the of the National Conservatives who were very definitely I've invited me in the Mises Institute, which is libertarian.

Although I'm not a libertarian. And I don't think my experience is unusual. The conservative movement has been doing this as has been outlawing people for a long time. And even if positions that I took in the past which were critical of neoconservatives Become prevalent among conservatives in a later point I'm still I still remain persona non grata because I did not take the party line at the time that The opposite position was the party line.

So I mean their gatekeeping is almost pathological and It just it just continues now. There is of course the larger question Do I think what calls itself the conservative movement, which is not really conservative and it's only you know Intermittently on the right.

Do I think this conservative movement could have held back the left if it were more principled. And if it engaged less in this sort of gatekeeping basically the police the left which was always trying to cut a deal The center left and sort of try to absorb these people and be friendly with them and so forth.

I don't know I mean have having written books on Act of liberalism the managerial step books in the managerial state on the post Marxist left and so forth. These forces have become so powerful throughout the Western world and I should I show my book on anti-fascism.

Even you know during the Second World War after the study the struggle against communism is almost an interlude, you know in the The the triumph the triumph of various left. I mean you had the pro-communist left now you have the woke left.

Yeah, and I'm not I'm not sure that a powerful concern move a conservative movement or movement of the right could have could have controlled them. And I say this with deep regret. Having having studied this subject for many years because I think they I think the conservative movement has been totally inadequate and often despicable.

But I I don't I don't believe that a stronger conservative movement Might have been able to prevail Against and so the left just took over so many institutions at the same time. And I could see this even as a graduate student at Yale in the 1960s I mean they the way they took over whole departments.

I remember when Charles Moser who was a famous Soviet historian and Was was pushed out of The Yale I think was it was either the history of the Russian department because he had been too critical to Soviet Union.

That was the kind of thing that that's when the anti anti-communism was the hallmark of the left Right being soft on the communist. Well, once the communists went away it became that you've got the woke stuff gay Transgendered anti-white racism and so forth Anti-male Anti white male Christian.

I say Demonology, which is what we have now.

If you could boil down what you think the reason for the gatekeeping against you is what would you say? What are they seeing in you that they? It sounds like you didn't take some positions that you should have.

Is that really all of that it is or yeah.

Party Lines, Neoconservatism, and the French Communist Analogy

I mean they decide that they're going to move, you know. Toward in a certain direction and if you don't go along with and I remember in the 1980s when the neocon and everybody became pro neocon in the conservative movement.

Except for me of a handful of dissenters from I knew who became paleo conservatives these people are profoundly conformist and careerist and you know if I. Remember being shocked when Martin Luther King whom I never really hated.

But I wasn't a great admirer of his how he went from being demonized and into it into a god figure like Just changed him. Joe McCarthy went from being a god figure to it to a demonic figure overnight and everybody on you go along with this and Anyone writing anything critical of the civil rights movement before affirmative action was introduced and you allow or before it became anti-israeli, you know.

With yeah also pushed to the side. But I mean there's all these party lines you expect to accept and by then I was sort of like in my nit to like 40s and I you know, I I wasn't gonna go along with this with this stuff.

And I thought the neocons were crazy on foreign affairs. But every oh, we have to have global democracy and our way of life and human rights and so forth. I thought this was all nonsense. Yeah, I said it too loudly now you I think you're allowed to say that today I'm not sure.

Maybe the party line has changed again, but for you it's too late because you.

Well, no, I mean it that way I meant like you've deviated in previous.

Issues and so they you're marked as it were. Yeah, the American conservative movement is like the French Communist Party. I always compare them the French Communist Party. But I also point out people in the Communist Party.

They're generally more intelligent than they are but the people who opposed Who opposed the Nazi German invasion of France in? 1941 who remembers the Communist Party were expelled. Because the communists were then on the side of Nazi Germany since Stalin was a like Hitler, right?

They took orders from Moscow then as soon as Hitler attacked Stalin. They also were all you know. We're all the anti-nazi again. So but then after the war. A communist who had been prematurely anti-nazi that is, you know during the period of Soviet Nazi cooperation.

Were expelled from the party. They were never mentioned as in the resistance and so forth because they'd taken the wrong position at the wrong Same I think in the wrong positions at the wrong time and the conservative movement.

It's exactly like the French communist movement. You know on the wrong side on some issue back then you don't ever don't ever accept you afterwards.

Yeah, obviously you've been immersed in this battle and you know it up and down I've not been as experienced but I've noticed the same thing you're talking about and I Was naive when I graduated from college and thought hey if you have good reasoning and and you are articulate that You get platforming.

That's just how it works. And I was in for a very rude awakening and I remember going to CPAC 2020 and just thinking where's the conservatives? I was looking for them. I couldn't find them. I saw trannies for Trump.

I saw atheists for Liberty I saw you know guys. I remember the turning point USA booth had a rainbow flag and you know. But I didn't find anything on the founding. I didn't find anything from a more Christian Western Standpoint it was all it just it took the wind out of my sails and I've noticed.

Even though I've written a few books. You reviewed one of them actually for Chronicles on Christianity and the social justice movement because the evangelical base is so important in this country. I I have not like the platforming I get is from Independence personalities online.

It's not from these legacy institutions and I talked to people in those institutions. I have friends I'll find out that there's guys, you know working as editors or working in different various capacities who love What I put out there, but I would never get a publishing deal or a I haven't yet.

At least you know the platforming and I see other guys that this is not spoken from jealousy or anything. It's just more of a why is this the case who? You know have gone halfway left who have Capitulated on some of these questions who I think of even recently and most people probably don't know who this guy is because he's you know, but this is in the evangelical world, there's a guy named Neil Shen be who he's he's capitulated for years and But like and people don't really care for him it seems like online in you know, general rank-and-file conservatives but he's the kind of guy that the Institutions like that, you know the Prager you and daily wire and the blaze like they want to promote this kind of guy.

Who's you know kind of went halfway left during the 2020 stuff and and this is a curious dynamic I could probably you know Give you could probably even give me hundreds of examples of similar dynamics where the the elevated ones are the ones who are coming from the left and then or they're.

They're liberal in some way and they don't want the pure More conservative mind so with that dynamic in place, are you positive or optimistic about maybe what the internet could do with growing platforms that Can go around these legacy institutions.

The Internet, New Platforms, and the Right’s Future

Yeah, I am.

I think there's just too many podcasters out there, you know, who are On the traditional way who are Bible believing Christians and so and it just you know. Part of conservative will not accept that, you know, we're talking about people who were except David French comes to mind because he was a hero National Review ran for president let him be president, but I want to run against against Trump and is he was a Lawyer and military and so forth as far as I can tell he's always been on the left, you know.

But so he's an evangelical, but he's always been on the left and the only way that these people Leave the conservative movement is by saying I'm no longer conservative. I'm now going to go with the left because they're not going to throw them out, you know, they could stay as long I mean Bill Crystal, you know could have could have died a leader of the conservative movement.

Even that holding leftist views. It was the fact that he got up with the order David from these people just leave Alright, the conservative will will cling to them. They're perfect Right, you know as long as they say they're conservative and they have lots of liberal friends and a liberal exposure, they're great and You know, I I think that French is is typical.

Of course now he's for drag queens and Loves Kamala Harris and this so, you know the conservative movement. So we'll sort of send me wash their hands of him. But you know if you do as I say if he decides to come back, okay, there's no problem.

Yeah, because he has acceptability on the left.

Yeah, and he's made it a mission to get into Evangelical churches they he even is part of this curriculum with Russell Moore and Curtis Chang. That's right. It's like a Bible study, but it's not it's trying to turn these red churches into bluer churches and I've noticed this dynamic.

I mean, this is why I have the platform I have in the evangelical world that you know Evangelical intellectuals if you want to even call them that aren't generally that impressive unfortunately. But the institutions the few ones they do have are run by basically leftists there or liberals at the very least.

Gospel coalition Christianity today the big major seminaries. And it's a curious thing because 81 of their followers vote for Trump and this dynamic. I Don't understand it completely. It's a bit. I know mayor Nigeria elitism is the explanation generally given but you know How is it possible that the leaders of a movement are so out of step with the people in the movement?

I don't know. I like has this happened before in human history like this. It's very odd to me.

Yeah but you know if you look at the American conservative movement or people who identify as conservatives and I know that our executive editor Ed Wells. There's a lot of talk shows in Minnesota to conservative groups Christian groups and so forth.

Most of them are more conservative than what you hear on Fox News. The I remember the late Sam Francis used to say that Republicans are usually well to the left the rank-and-file relative left of the Republican Party in the case of the Democrats the The party is very often well to the left of those who vote for it.

If they and I and I I think you know, I think Sam would have argued that part of the restraining force is the conservative movement. But you know, it tells you what you're allowed to believe, you know, you see a transgendered Republican Caitlyn Jenner on Keith.

Well, this is right, you know, we're all for transgender. We just don't like transgender children. It's a little messy having these transgendered boys and girls. Lockers we don't want that but all the rest is okay.

Now. My question is why is gay marriage? Okay? Yeah. You know a game and I I think was Mike Johnson who claims to be an evangelical Christian. Said that, you know, he's fine with gay marriage because you know, it's now the law of the land.

No, it wasn't it was it was an aberrant lunatic decision by the Supreme Court. Which is even less that we're even less justifiable than ob way. Why are we not allowed to talk about this anymore? It's crazy.

Yeah, what happens if the Supreme Court says that I'm allowed to marry my dog. Is that okay? Well, what about three men marrying two women? I mean, what doesn't go on? I mean marriage is being men and women period.

That's the end of it. Yeah, we're not reflecting. Yes. It's it's insane. We're not reflecting basic common sense and what we see in creation. I'm I'm trying to remember I don't know why I'm it's slipping my mind the gentleman in Florida who's trying to reform education and expose.

Oh Christopher Rufo, that's that guy. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I don't know why I couldn't remember his name, but Christopher Rufo Is a lot of people really admire what he's doing. He's got he's doing something but You I'd he just came to mind because of what you said.

I remember he congratulated You know a gentleman online who had was Engaging in surrogacy because he Had he was in a homosexual relationship and couldn't have a child naturally, you know, this was a few years ago.

And then recently he just hired and he was a porn ex-pornographic actress who was on the left you know and had and to be an editor and and so something like that a journalist and He's not alone in that that's just kind of par for the course and with leaders like that.

I just don't know how you really Progress it's hard. I know there's good people that are in You know in Florida trying to reform the education system doing good work. I know that's happening, but When you're so hampered at the top and the vision is so murky as you said It should be easy to say gay marriage is wrong.

That's this is ridiculous, but we can't even say that so I guess where the where's the hope in all of this is the question Where's the way the path forward for people who are concerned? Yeah, I I think that the.

The path forward I think lies with the younger generation. And you know people who are listening to podcasts like this podcast will not come from the conservative movement. Obviously which is you know Compromised itself and sort of deep praying to keep out of existence to write anything to the right of itself.

But I by the way, I also wouldn't beat up necessarily on these people who seem pro-fascist. I you know, I think you need as many people as you can on the right. I mean, there's some people who are gonna think that there's a great guy.

I wouldn't deal with them, but you know. There there are many people I don't know who read Curtis Yarvin who my not a fan of you know, but you know if they're on our side on issues fine. And you know, you look for as many allies as you can.

I know Christopher Rufo and I like his book very much. I've reviewed it in several places. And you know which year which he discusses the the cultural radicalization of America. Which I think represents a change from the old pro-communist left in the United States.

I think it's much more much more destructive. Nihilistic. Yeah, any you know, I think his analysis of it is very good. And I think he has tried to clean up the university system in Florida. The problem is that just about everybody you're dealing with there is to the left of you anyone in education.

Anyone in popular culture and so forth. And you know, you try to keep people on your side on some issues. Even if they're crazy and most other issues. The unfortunately the the right has a very very bad hand right now.

I'm even if Trump has won. And you have the legacy media. I mean I'm true TV on and you're getting you know, pure woke leftist propaganda. Yeah, or seven. Advertisements on television everything is everything.

No more movies. I mean movies now are like movies that were produced by the Nazi Ministry of Propaganda or something to just. Always made up social engineering and so forth and you don't even know where to begin.

Because the left continues to advance as you say, I'm gonna get out but what the conservative movement has been doing for the last. You know 67. Expelling people and gatekeeping. This is insane. I mean this has not helped the right at all.

I mean, you know, there's certain people you don't want to deal with like people wearing swastikas or something but you know most most of the people they've kicked out or like me as far as as far as I as far as I can I can see and What they've done is they've weakened their side.

And they have run even when it was not necessary to make concessions to the left. You know, yeah, like I think Caitlyn Jenner on TV.

Transgender Republicans, oh, it's ridiculous. Yeah. Yeah, and I don't mean to put you in an awkward spot with Rufus. I think he's an ally just like I think Trump is a positive ally putting things in the right direction but Trump is also pro gay marriage and Some of this I guess I think he he probably rightly believes public opinion is here.

So I need to be here and I can't win unless I side with that to some extent so I I understand there's these constraints people are trying to deal with. I Just I'm more using it as a example of like hey, look even our best leaders even the people in these more legacy institutions who are Platform there even they are the best ones we can pick are somehow saying insane things like they're Like they they have to they're living by lies on some front somewhere just to survive in that position so.

So anyway, I I'd like to maybe take a philosophical step back. You said some things about you know the younger younger people and Understanding that even some of these guys who think of themselves as fascists.

You said maybe at the very least cobelligerence if not allies on some issues and then of course you want to distance yourself from Nazis and Hitler enjoyers and swastika. But you know, this is becoming I think a delicate balance because there there's so many different versions.

Competing versions now, especially as the Internet's open things up for people to say. I'm the conservative. I'm the conservative. I'm on the right. I'm the true, right, right. So maybe we should take a step back and just hear from you.

I know you wrote an article a while ago for Chronicles on the three different Metrics people use to define the right or conservatism. I think is is what you were talking about What what is the right or that what is conservatism?

I know those are actually two different questions. So let's start with conservatism. What is conservatism in the Anglo American tradition? Yeah, I I think that.

Conservatism, the Right, and an Ordered Society

Anyone who read that article has read my books on conservatism know that I make a distinction between conservatism of the right. And it is it is typical of people, you know. The followers of Russell Kirk, for instance to say we're not the right we are conservatives and I remember a dispute that took place between the late Sam Francis and Annette Kirk the wife of Russell Kirk in The home of Pat Buchanan when he was running for president.

I was invited to that and Sam Francis's that let me let's get rid of the word conservative because it doesn't mean anything anymore. Let's describe ourselves as the right and Annette Kirk had very angry I think I think she actually attributed that position to me.

Although at the time was taken by Sam Francis now, I take that position quite openly and I books what I'm saying is Conservatism is a way of looking at the world that is related to a particular social order that existed in the past.

You know and you do find conservatives in early America like high federalists. The southern Landed class the planter of aristocracy had some conservative elements. Although, you know, they also had slavery and other things which were not characteristic of European conservatism even then.

But you know, you do find conservative traditions in small towns. You have traditional hierarchies governing them and so forth. But I think we have moved beyond conservatism it's what I call the right which is really post conservative and The the right are the right consists of those who are reacting to the left and I Think I think in the American context.

It's entirely Proper that Bible believing Christians formed the right because that is Protestant Christianity, you know is really at the essence of American identity when the country is founded. Also people who are defending Constitutionalism who are fighting back against the managerial stoic state and wokeness in all of its forms these people are welcome as the right and the right by its very nature is a Reaction against the left and the inroads of the left and the destructive effects of the left.

In a deeper philosophical sense, you know, I say that that the the right To whatever extent it does hold to eternal principles. Believes in traditional hierarchy an ordered society the order of the family the Also, it is defending particularity.

It is not defending universalism. It is defending a particular community. So these are all characteristics of the right and I think those ideas become More and more explicit as the right reacts against the left.

But I really see is sort of as actionable. I suppose. This is my fascist side because fascism was a movement That based on action or action ism and the right the right by its very nature is actionist it is reacting against the left, but it does so in the name of principle and it becomes more and more aware of these principles in the process of fighting against the left and its destruction of society and I think in the case of the left that we face today.

It is the ultimate left. It is the left in all of its all of its most ugly all of its ugliest characteristics the destruction of gender identity the destruction of the family the war against white people the war against masculinity it is doing all these things at the same time and This war is going on not only in the United States But in every Western country and in every country influenced by the United States simultaneously.

Yeah, you know if you watch an old movie like it's a wonderful life or you know any of these picturesque small-town America places I know. There are people now young especially younger people who never actually experienced that look at that and they'll say I Want to go back to Bedford Falls.

I don't understand What happened this looked like a great place to live and you're only I mean my goodness if the only threat was Potter, right? That would be great there's a way to actually fight him through the neighbors you have and and so.

That was an organic community though that took centuries to develop and in Anglo American spheres. And and it's not something that you just can you know instantly? Recreate necessarily. I mean, that's what that was, right?

So when we look back at these older Vestiges of what America used to be we're looking at something that took time To develop and I think it was Roger Scruton who said it's very easy to destroy things but it's very hard to create good things and and and that's the difficulty I see now with.

And it's what this is my question with Fascism which and maybe you could define that further because I know there's different flavors of that and you have Franco and you have. You know, it's also perhaps a product of modernity.

I don't know if you would agree with that, but it is okay all right, so is I mean Fascism can't come in and just create Bedford Falls. It can maybe stop it can put Potter in jail but like so this is the question I guess I have and a lot of people are asking is We all want a more muscular Conservatism that fights the left all of us want that on, you know, the right as it were.

Some guys are looking to even Hitler for this. Some guys are looking to Southern agrarians some guy like there's all these different places people are looking to find. What is it that we need to and The instant fixes are far more appealing.

I don't know that they're realistic, but maybe lay out for us What it should look like a muscular conservatism is that fascism why. Like what elements of the right would you consider odious that need to be rejected or maybe they pose as being the right?

But they're not but they still have this muscular element.

Fascism as a Historical Movement, Not a Timeless Model

Yeah, first if you read my book on fascism, which is like one of the best books. That's been written on fascism according to experts on the subject. Although the conservative movement has generally stayed away from it.

But it but it has been favorably Mainstream academic publications. Yeah, the argument that I'm making is that fascism is historically situated. Not every movement which features a nationalist leaders is a fascist movement.

Not every movement that it claims to have a corporate economy is a fascist movement, but it is based on a certain configuration of circumstances. That you find into war Europe among those returning from World War one who are mobilized and want a Political movement based on action who reject local parliamentarianism.

And there's a revolutionary nationalist movement. It is both nationalist and revolution claims to be revolutionary because it's going to reconstruct society around the principle of unity embodied by a leader.

As I argue that generic fascism is very different from Nazism and Nazism is Influenced obviously by the peculiar hates of Hitler who takes over and also by by Stalinism incorporates a lot of Stalinism concentration camps use of air.

Fascism I identify mostly with the Latin Catholic world in the interwar period. They tried to you know and exported to England where it's not very successful, but there's very very well. And you know in Eastern Central Europe and in in France.

And there's there is a fascist movement in Spain the phalange, but they are not. Franco's not really a fascist. He's a very very conservative. Military get the conservative Catholic military dictator, but he's not a fascist.

But he tries to observe absorb what is left of Spanish fascism, you know into into sort of a kind of large integral movement of the right after he wins. I don't think fascism is something that we're going to revive as I say, it's it's it's an artifact.

It's you know has to do with the war Europe. But what I find, you know relevant about it is it's an attempt by the by a post-conservative right. To create a movement to take power. And you know claim it claims to be restoring some kind of historical antiquity.

So in all these respects, I argue fat fascism is a failed movement of the right. I wonder we could look back at you know, and see why it failed. You know and what we must do to create a movement of the right that can succeed and You know that I think is at least implicit in my work on fascism and my work on anti-fascism.

I need to read that would this be accurate then because I'm trying to simplify things for everyone listening and and Really like grasp what you're saying here. So conservatism it sounds like is more of a defensive posture when you have something valuable that is trying to be taken from you.