July 3, 2017 Show with Martha Peace on “The Excellent Wife: A Biblical Perspective” PLUS Josh Buice on “Real Church vs. Facebook Church”

Iron Sharpens Iron

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron.

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So one man sharpens another Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed when we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions

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Now, here's our host Chris Arnton Good Afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Monday on this third day of July Fourth of July Eve as you may refer to it

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And it is my honor and privilege to have on the program today A woman who

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I've never interviewed before and for those of you who are expecting to hear

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Adams Road today the four members of the musical ministry Adams Road of four young men and women

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Or young men and a woman I believe it is who are former Mormons who came to the true gospel of Jesus Christ and to Discover who

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Jesus Christ of the scriptures truly is and were saved by his blood and Transformed and converted to biblical

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Christianity. Well that musical group Adams Road due to unforeseen complications regarding phone access

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Had to postpone their interview today. God willing. There's a possibility. We'll have

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Adams Road all four members of the group on the program tomorrow But there have been

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Some complications as I just mentioned they were originally supposed to be in studio with me and then they got a gig up in Vermont which

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Made that impossible. So they were on their way to Vermont and then these unforeseen occurrences developed so Pray for the the

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Northeast tour of this wonderful musical group Adams Road made entirely of Former Mormons or at least three of the four members were former

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Mormons all of the four members are now Christians biblical evangelical Christians, so but I'm so delighted that That God enabled me to providentially at the very last minute arrange an interview with my first guest

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Martha peace and Martha is an author a gifted teacher and exhort er a biblical counselor trained under NANC Nanc which was made famous by Jay Adams Their founder a workshop leader on various biblical counseling issues for women at the

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National Conference for Nanc Instructor for six years at Carver Bible Institute in college in Atlanta where she taught women's classes including the excellent wife

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Raising kids without raising cane. I love that title Introducing I'm sorry introduction to biblical counseling

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Advanced biblical counseling personal purity and the book of Esther and She's a speaker at this year's g3 conference

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January 18th through the 20th in Atlanta, Georgia, and we'll be talking more about that as well but today we are discussing probably her most well -known and beloved book the excellent wife a

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Biblical perspective and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to iron sharpens iron radio for the very first time

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Martha. Peace Yes, I'm glad to be here Yes, I am.

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So glad that you are here as well And thank you so much for agreeing to do this interview with very little notice and I really praise

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God for you For doing that. Well, first of all what

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I usually do Martha is That I usually give a first -time guest

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The opportunity to share with our listeners briefly in summary form a testimony

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Involving what religion if any you were raised in and how the Lord in his sovereignty

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Providentially drew you to himself and what circumstances were involved in God's providence

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That drew you to his saving embrace Well, Chris what happened was

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I grew up in the South yeah, you can probably tell and I was

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In church Sunday school in church with my parents in a church.

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That was very legalistic It believed that you had to be baptized to be saved

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And if you did not take communion every Sunday, you would lose your salvation

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So I was a eight years old I walked down the aisle and made the pastor led me in a profession of faith

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They baptized me and told me I was a Christian. Well, I wanted to be a

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Christian I wanted to go to heaven and in case I died and But I knew that My mother would tell me you're not

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Patient you're just not very patient and then my

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Sunday school teacher Talked about love is patient and we are to show love to God and to others so it always made me feel guilty as a little girl and So I would determine

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I was going to be patient after I was a Christian now. I was going to be patient Well, it didn't last very long and I realized

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I can't do this and then I just decided well, I'm not even going to trust so being

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I was obviously not a Christian and Through the years

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I we quit going to church when I was a teenager because there was an issue with the pastor and Then the the next time

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I went to church was after I was married it had been married a few years we had two children and We went to a very liberal church that really was more of a social gospel than the real gospel and Then we moved in 1978 to a town called

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Peachtree City, Georgia and My husband was working nearby here.

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He was an air traffic controller and Eventually, I started teaching nursing at a little college near here and my

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Office mate her name is Katrina she was a very strong Christian and She started witnessing to me and she talked

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To me about the Lord every day and sometimes it would get on my nerves and I Was so mean to her one time

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I told her to be quiet and stop talking That nicely and She was very sensitive and she started crying and I was glad so She went home and she got all prayed up and she came back the next day talking about the

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Lord so it was like being chained to the Apostle Paul and I could not get away from her and She was driving me nuts

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I Was married with two children, but I was a party girl and I was

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Drinking every day. I was an alcoholic. I didn't drink at work, but that's the only time

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I didn't drink and I was committing adultery so my life secretly was a train wreck and it was about to happen and Then the

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Lord sent providentially a Couple Jackie Ned Sherwood friends of ours old friends of ours back to Atlanta and they contacted us and we had heard that they had become religious and my comment was well, that's too bad because they won't be any fun anymore and But they came they started coming to visit us and to make a long story short

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Ed was teaching an adult Sunday school class and every time they would come visit

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He would say oh, let me tell you about this week's Sunday school class is so interesting and he would just give it

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Now he did he memorized it. He didn't have his Bible. He didn't have any notes, but he just gave it

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Well, that was very annoying to us But for some reason and it was just God drawing us

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We just couldn't stop them from coming They came every

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Friday night and this went on for weeks well Everything kind of culminated in this house that we were having built and The builder was had stolen money and it was that was a disaster and that was a big mess my whole secret life was a big mess and We finally moved in that house in June.

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Well, that was not good for me because I was not

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Having to go to work every day I had the summer off and I could drink every day all day and I was

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I started having panic attacks I'd never been an anxious person that I was having panic attacks all the time.

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I was crying all the time I was drinking all the time and my husband wanted me to go to a psychiatrist and I wouldn't go and Finally I had decided that I was going to commit suicide and I planned out how

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I was going to do it, but the only reason I didn't do it is because my friend at Work that witnessed to me had convinced me that I was a sinner and I was going to hell

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Now I didn't believe there was a hell, but she did and I thought

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If I kill myself, what if there is a hell and that's where I end up So that's why

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I didn't kill myself the next day I got up and I was sober that then and I Thought about what had almost happened and I was terrified and I finally

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I said I have to face reality I'm an alcoholic. That's all that's my problem.

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And that was true, but I needed the Lord That was really my problem But I decided to quit drinking and I did cold turkey and I thought

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I was going to go into withdrawal but God in his mercy just spared me from that well, then out of desperation,

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I started reading the Bible and One night reading the

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Gospel of John I got up to chapter 14 And I had read

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John several times because my friends it had said read the Gospel of John Just keep reading it.

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So I did and I would read it over and over again and one night My husband was at work.

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He was working Evening shift the kids were asleep. I My heart was pounding.

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My hands were shaking because I was having a panic attack So I started reading the Gospel of John I got up to chapter 14 and That's when

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Jesus Said to the disciples because they panicked because he said he was going to be killed.

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They didn't understand and That's when he comforted them and he said

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I am the way the truth and the life No man comes under the Father, but by me well when

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I read that I Stopped and I thought about that and I thought

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He's claiming to be the only way to God and that night. I Realized I think that's true.

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And then I kept reading and then he said to them Phillip said show us the

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Father and it's enough for us. We want to see God We'll be satisfied and Then Jesus said if I've been so long with you

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Philip and you have not come to know me if you had if you have seen me

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You've seen the Father Well, I stopped and I thought about that and all of a sudden

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I gasped and I went oh He's claiming to be God.

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I just was astounded and Then I thought about it and I thought well,

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I think that's true and Then I kept reading and I got down to where he said

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Jesus said you can ask me anything in my name and I will do it and I stopped reading and I said well

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That's not true because I had started praying and I had asked him to Get take my anxiety away to give us our money back the builder had stolen and to put our marriage back together now we were still technically together, but just barely and God had not done any of those things but I read the verse again and I read the whole thing the second time and Jesus said you can ask me anything in my name and I will do it if it's for the glory of the

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Father and Then he says if you love me You will keep my commandment and it was just during that moment

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Where I didn't understand what was happening but all of a sudden

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I was just overwhelmed with grief over my sin

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Praise God it was so hard that I just thought

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I'm gonna die and the biggest grief was that I had never given

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God glory not one time in my whole life and so I started praying and I started

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Confessing sin and I would name something and I would ask God to forgive me and it was a long vile

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Dirty ugly list and when I couldn't think of anything else to confess

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Then I said to God Now I understand That you're real and that you have the power to take my anxiety away

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But whether you do or whether you don't and I hesitated because I knew if he didn't

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Very soon. I would be in a psychiatric hospital But I just kept praying whether you take it away or whether you don't

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You decide how my life can glorify you the most and then

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I pointed To the verse where he says you can ask in my name and it's like I was saying, okay

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Now, do you see what you wrote here? And I said in Jesus name,

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I'm praying Amen Well, it was late. I was tired

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So I turned out put the Bible down turned out the light went to sleep. I Didn't understand enough at that moment to know

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I had been born again But the next day when I woke up The fear was gone.

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I knew the Lord was with me and I remember thinking

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I Have finally found What I have so desperately been looking for my life will never be the same

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Now I realize now After reading the rest of the

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Bible, I didn't find God He drew me and he was drawing me for weeks.

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And then that night it just he Illumined the truth to me but I was scared to tell anybody because they already thought

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I was crazy and I mean really I was crazy as a loon and I Didn't tell anybody what happened and But I went to my husband and I said, how about Let's start going to church

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We'll go to Jackie Ned's church where he's teaching Sunday school and we'll just go to his

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Sunday school class It'll save him the effort of telling us me us all of that.

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So we started going and finally

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After about two weeks, I started reading the rest of the Bible and oh my goodness.

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I never I've never read it and When I got to the

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New Testament Every other verse was like, oh, no, I'm doing that wrong

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Or I'm thinking wrongly about that and I would stop and I would pray and ask

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God to help me understand and It was it was an amazing journey in God's grace

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Sanford my husband got saved a few months later We ended up at After going to the first church we went to for about a year and a half

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Realizing that we weren't really being fed we went to a different church a

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Bible Church where the pastor taught and He's the one that let me start teaching a lady's

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Bible study and he helped me and I did different Bible book studies and then after about five years of that,

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I met Lou Priolo who is a biblical counselor and He ended up training me and I got certified by the

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NANC Organization which by the way, we have changed our name

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Our new name it's the same group, but it's the Association of Certified Biblical counselors and It's just grown huge since when

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I joined in 1989 when I joined but The website if anybody's interested in that is biblical counseling calm you're looking for a

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Counselor you can find one in your area if there is one in your area and there's all kinds of articles and different things on there that are very helpful for people so That it's kind of the rest is kind of history really

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But that's how the Lord saved me. Wow. That is some fascinating story. In fact,

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I think it should become a Christian movie Eventually, that was pretty fascinating Um, can you please tell our listeners because there is some controversy as you know involving the world of Counseling within Christendom.

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There are all different kinds of approaches to counseling there's different disagreement on the different approaches amongst brothers and sisters in Christ and To the point where it's actually considered by many to be very serious

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Disagreements if you could tell our different our listener is what makes new thetic counseling

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Unique and what sets it apart amongst other? Forms of Christian counseling some that call themselves

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Christian counselors some are more specific calling themselves biblical counselors and some even more specific that calling themselves new thetic counselors

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If you could let our listeners know about that well New thetic is the word that Jay called biblical counseling

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Jay Adams and The group that he started to train people and certify people with the

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National Association of new thetic counselors and the reason that he called it new thetic instead of just biblical because that's what it is using the

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Bible Was because Larry Crabb who's a psychologist a

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Christian psychologist He was very popular then probably still is but he claimed to have a biblical model

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Well, his is not it's Got a smidgen of Bible and Scripture, but it's got

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Secular theories mixed in with it. So that's why they called them an

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Integrationist they integrate the the two of them Jay called it new thetic because the

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Greek word No, it's a toe means to exhort or to admonish or to counsel.

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So But that's such a strange word and you always

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You Always have to explain it I mean somebody asked Jay after he said in a speech

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He was a new thetic counselor. Somebody came up and said did you say you were a pathetic?

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Anyway, but we Are not weird, we're not strange

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But we do not use any of the psychology Theories, which there's over 300 of them out there.

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So you got to pick one But what we do is we

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Just use the Bible in a very practical way in second

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Peter 1 and verse 3 it says God divine power

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That is granted to us now the us is believers everything pertaining to life and godliness

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Through the true knowledge of him in the him refers to Jesus Who called us by his own glory and excellence?

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For by these he has granted to us his precious and magnificent promises

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So that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature Having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

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So when I took the biblical counseling training

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I learned How to give people hope no matter what the problem was

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I learned how to ask questions and gather data so that I wouldn't be foolish in my answers and Counsel to them.

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I learned how to not be a legalist and impose my own personal standards on somebody

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Just because it was my personal standard. I learned about Church discipline.

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I learned about the role of the wife and the different scriptures that Would help her to learn to respect her husband and love her husband and to be biblically

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Submissive to her husband and the learned how to take someone who's depressed and Sad and are grieving to the scriptures and give them examples in the

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Bible of people who Were depressed and then they turned to God and then how to just very practically help them how when somebody's bitter the

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Emotion that you feel when you're bitter is hurt and Then how that's a sin

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But some of the things that people do To the person who's bitter are just horrific.

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I mean it grieves us I've cried with people when I hear some of these stories, but the integrationist really leans

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Very heavily on the psychology theories and it just depends on which is their pet theory for example, dr.

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Dobson is His thing is self -esteem and building up your self -esteem

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Now that was very popular several years ago in the secular realm

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But that's kind of pathway now these theories come and go and what they're trying to do

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Is help people to have a healthy? personality, and they're really sincerely trying to help people and that is a good thing, but when you leave

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God out of it or you mix Secular theories and try to mix it with scripture it in my

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Book attitudes of a transformed heart I have a chapter on Psychologized man, and I talk about what's wrong with the integrationist view and I made up a case study and I just kind of track you through that person and and how the counsel they're getting and what's wrong with it and I use the illustration of We we have a granddaughter who's a pastry chef.

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Well, you should eat some of the stuff. She makes is unbelievable Pure clean from scratch everything is just wonderful and It would be this how the scripture is

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You can't get any deeper inside a person Than the thoughts and attempts of the heart and that's what the

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Bible does and so But if you took a handful of dirt and threw it in one of my granddaughter's cake

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You can mix it all up and Make it look pretty but you couldn't eat it

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Well, it's the same thing with secular or integrated

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So -called Christian counseling, I think these people are well -meaning but I do think that If you really want to help somebody it's the power of God and the scriptures that are alive and powerful

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That's how you help them We have to go to our first break right now If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Martha Peace our email address is

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Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris Arnzen at gmail .com

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Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of Residence if you live outside the USA and you may remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter that you are

29:44

Asking about especially if it involves your own marriage or something like that We understand your request to remain anonymous, but if it's not a personal and private and intimate matter, please

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Give us at least your first name and your location of residence. Don't go away We'll be right back after these brief messages with Martha Peace and the excellent wife

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Depot calm. That's battery Depot calm Welcome back.

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This is Chris Arns And if you just tuned us in for the first hour, our guest is Martha piece

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We are discussing her book the excellent wife. Well, at least we will be in any moment

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We've been already addressing her conversion to Christianity and other things involved in her life, including her becoming a biblical counselor should

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I say in euthetic counselor and If you would like to join us on the air Our email address is

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Chris Arns and at gmail .com Chris a RN z en a gmail .com

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coming up on the second hour We have pastor Josh Bice of Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia who is also the founder and director of the g3 conference where Both of my guests will be speaking in January both

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Martha peace and Josh Bice and many other speakers Will be on the roster at that event

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Pastor Josh Bice in our second hour is going to be addressing real church versus Facebook church quite an interesting theme that I hope you stay tuned for as well

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Martha we do have a listener we have RJ in White Plains, New York Who asks

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I might have missed something, but I was wondering if Martha is still married to the man against whom she sinned in regard to adultery

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Yes In fact last September we celebrated our 50th wedding anniversary

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So it then this is a miracle of God. Praise God, but Sanford is more laid -back than I am and he did not know about the adultery at The time and I'm glad you know,

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I glad you added at the time because obviously he knows now He knows now, but what happened was the first after I got saved and we started going to church

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I talked to the pastor there and I said Should I confess this to my husband now?

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It had been over So it wasn't an ongoing issue right then and he said no, it's under the blood don't tell him

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But I always felt Funny about that. I mean

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I was relieved because I didn't have to tell him but then I thought you know

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I'm being deceptive and you never know when something like that's going to come out and so A few years went by and I took the counseling training and Jay says you need to tell the truth

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Not the sordid details, but you know to ask forgiveness and so I finally did and It was probably the hardest one of the hardest things that tamper and I have ever been through but he is a gracious man and he forgave me and he

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I Mean it was rough there for a while Emotionally for both of us, but he stuck with me and He has helped several men in a similar situation whose wives were not being faithful to help them to think rightly through it and to honor

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God in the process Well, that is quite remarkable because I'm no expert on this

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Martha but in your years of counseling have you found and I know that you counsel women primarily if not exclusively but Have you found that it is much more difficult for men to forgive that sin than it is for women?

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No, I don't think so. I think It is Always Devastating.

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I mean you're breaking your vow before God and It is and a lot of I mean is some people

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Will Forgive more easily than others Some are very hard -nosed and How could he do that to me?

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I would never have done that to him, you know kind of thing and They're proud and They really

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It in 1st Corinthians 13 it says love doesn't take into account a wrong suffered and a

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Lot of times what they do is they just play it over and over like a tape in their minds and they just become more and more angry more and more bitter and if you if you go to Matthew 18 and Jesus tells that story at the end of Matthew 18 about the slave that was forgiven so much and then he wouldn't forgive his fellow slave that just owed him a small amount and Jesus is so scary because at the end of that Jesus says

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Because the the master of the original slave that was forgiven so much found out what the slave had done that was forgiven and he wouldn't forgive the other person and he

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Said you wicked wicked slave and he put him in prison till he could repay and Jesus says let me just read it because I don't want to mess this up.

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Sure. Well, you're looking at the text I'm just gonna repeat our email address. It's Chris Ornson at gmail .com.

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If anybody would like to join us See HR is a RN ZN at gmail .com

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But at the end of Matthew 18 The master said to the wicked slave

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I forgave you all that debt because you Fleeted with me should you not have had mercy on your fellow slave in the same way that I had mercy on you

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And if Lord moved with anger handed him over to the torturers Until he should repay all that was owed him, but here's the scary part

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My Heavenly Father will also do the same to you if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart so the it is

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We have After all that we have been forgiven

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Maybe we weren't an adulterer that maybe we had a temper. Maybe we're a worrier.

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Maybe we don't trust God maybe we're selfish maybe I you know just on and on and on and Yet if somebody will not forgive the other person it's just wicked

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Because God has forgiven us and Luke is I think chapter 6.

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This is God himself is kind to wicked and evil men and I just remember the first time

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I ever read that and I just stopped and thought about it and I thought I Don't think

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I could be kind to somebody who is wicked and sinning against me that way

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Now it doesn't make me that the person who committed adultery doesn't there's there are consequences to sin and Even She may even have biblical grounds for divorce

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But she doesn't have any choice But to forgive him in her heart and not harbored that hatred and vengeful bitterness

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We overcome evil with good not more evil yeah, the reason why

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I asked the question is that I was assuming it might be more devastating and Problematic for a man to hear that his wife or even fiance or girlfriend

42:33

Was cheating on him than it would be for a woman to hear the reverse is because of the fragile egos involved with men and The perhaps that is more of a sensitive area where we're it almost seems unfortunately and tragically

42:50

So much of a commonplace Situation where men are committing adultery and having numerous relationships whether they are married or not and The even though in our day and age

43:08

Women might be neck -and -neck on that. I don't know but it just it's it seems less Shocking for a man to be found guilty of it.

43:15

Do you follow what I'm saying? Well, yes, I think men usually in Christian circles are

43:24

Christianized circles Usually it is the man who is committing adultery

43:29

But the I don't think it's any more devastating for the man or the woman

43:36

I think it's equally Okay well, thank God for your husband what a example of Christian manhood and Christian grace and mercy

43:46

It's just a remarkable and by the way RJ in White Plains, New York You have won a free copy of the excellent wife a biblical perspective.

43:57

This is the expanded edition And this has been provided compliments of focus publishing in Minnesota And it will be shipped to you compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service

44:13

Calm so keep your eye out in the mail for a package with a return address on the shipping label

44:20

It says CV BBS calm and we thank the wonderful folks at focus publishing for providing this book for you and Before I go on to an element in your book that I need to address before we run out of time

44:34

And I did tell you that two hours goes by fast and already we're almost finished the one hour

44:41

But I definitely want to get to part three in your book of your four -part book on a wife's submission because it seems to Be the most controversial and most difficult issue to for to accomplish agreement

44:57

Amongst brothers and sisters in Christ, but before that I do have a listener all the way in Slovenia Joe who has a question for you

45:06

Dear, brother Chris I'm very interested to know if sister Martha is familiar with the heart of the problem by Henry Brandt and Henry Skinner if she is please ask her to give us her assessment of this biblical counseling mode if she isn't familiar with this particular book and its authors their focus in counseling is to help us to first and foremost confess and Repent of our sin, whatever it may be at the root of whatever issues that precipitate the need for counseling

45:37

How important is it for a counselor to assist counselees in addressing sins scripturally?

45:43

Thank you for taking my question and edifying us today well I'm not familiar with the book

45:51

So I cannot speak to that I would say that it is super important to address sin issues and Do it in love and do it in a kind way

46:08

But then give them the hope of how by God's grace they can repent and they can change

46:18

The That is what we're all about Counseling that typical counselors whether they're

46:28

Christian or non -christian They tend to just kind of do

46:35

Reflective therapy. In other words, they just want to hear how you feel and Just help you to just expand on that.

46:46

Well, how did that make you feel and what do you think? you should do the kind of thing and I Had a young wife one time come for counseling.

46:58

She had been to an integrationist kind of counselor for several times and this this

47:08

Counselee was in a very bad marriage. Her husband was addicted to marijuana

47:14

He was not a believer her Mother was

47:20

Had mental issues. I mean her she had a bunch of little kids.

47:26

She had a lot of problems and she Came to me.

47:32

She heard about me and so she tells me all before she even started telling me the problems she said

47:40

I Know how I feel. It's horrible. I Want to know what to do

47:49

Will you show me or tell me what to do? And I said, I think

47:54

I can do that But I I did want to hear I had to hear the story I did

47:59

I do care about her feelings but the best way to help somebody is to see their to get the beam out of their eyes first and See their own sin taking a hundred percent

48:14

Responsibility for their part in whatever the conflicts are the the issues and problems are and Then to biblically

48:25

Know then how to respond to try to help the other person

48:30

So yes, we do address sin and we do

48:35

Exhort people to repent we start with the gospel. I mean we

48:42

People they're not the scriptures are not going to have the impact on them that they should if they're not saved and In the deep south here everybody just better.

48:55

They think they are saved Because they've walked down an aisle and cried and prayed a prayer so they may be saved

49:02

But if there's not fruit in their life after that, then they really don't know the

49:08

Lord So that we we just have to address all kinds of issues

49:15

I'm teaching base I'm teaching doctrine to them. I'm Teaching them about God And just because they go to church doesn't mean that they understand these things

49:31

Or have been really taught in a sound way Well, thank you

49:36

Joe in Slovenia and thank you for providing us with an American address where we are having

49:42

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service ship you a free copy of the excellent wife to the attention of your daughter in Atlanta drawer in the

49:52

Atlanta Georgia area or in Georgia and I also remind you of my request that you

50:00

Pay a visit to your daughter in Georgia when I am at the g3 conference So I get the chance to meet you for the first time face -to -face

50:07

The g3 the g3 conference is where as I mentioned before not only is

50:12

Martha peace Speaking there, but our second guest today. Josh Bice is speaking there and a number of other folks, which

50:20

I will be Mentioning in a little bit, but go to the g3 conference calm to register.

50:25

That's g3 conference calm I hope you come out to here to the United States specifically to Georgia so we can meet for the first time

50:32

I will have an exhibitors booth there. God willing at the g3 conference. So hope to see you

50:38

We only have about three minutes left Martha for our interview. So I'd like you to really Summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners

50:47

Especially as I said in regard to the most controversial aspect of your book the submission of wives well

50:55

Before I was saved I was a devout feminist and When I got saved

51:03

I Started reading the Bible and when I got there's four different places in the

51:10

New Testament that says the wife is to be submissive to her husband and I was appalled and But God had given me such a heart for him

51:25

That even though I knew That I was to be submissive to my husband.

51:32

It didn't mean that I couldn't have an opinion or you know offer my opinion but My desire to obey

51:42

God and and love him and please him overrode my

51:48

Um How I used to be just you know, everything had to be equal

51:53

But really that had to mean I get my way is what that meant. So when

51:59

I Met Lou Priolo who is a new that a counselor and he trained me he taught me some basic biblical principles for the wife and And then

52:16

Helped me to develop the basic material that is in the excellent white book and with biblical counselors

52:25

You have to come up with practical solutions to these things and The main reason that I wrote the excellent white book is because of the issue of submission and what it is and what it's not because there's a lot of misunderstanding about that and chapter 14 chapter 14 is resources to protect the wife when her husband is sinning and Part of being a godly wife and a mature

53:05

Christian woman is learning how to rightly Biblically Stand up to your husband's sin in love

53:15

Trying to help him and if he's not a believer, you don't use Scripture, but you do

53:22

Appeal to his conscience to do what's right. So there are

53:28

It's it's not slavery. It's not Mindless Submission if the husband asked you to sin the answer is no

53:40

You can't God is the higher authority in that If he asked you to do something that you it's not a sin, but you would rather do something else

53:52

Certainly express your opinion, but then be willing to go with your husband's final say

54:00

What I do Now you when you've been married 50 years.

54:05

You kind of are all just both alike But anyway If Sanford wants to do something one way and I don't want to do it that way

54:16

I want to Go on vacation somewhere else or whatever I'll go to him and I'll say

54:25

I've been thinking about something but Whatever you decide is fine

54:32

And he knows that when I when I say that I mean it I'm fine

54:38

I see that as God's will for me and So I'll say

54:43

I'd rather not go to the beach this time. I'd rather go to the mountains and I just made that up and Whatever and Then I have to wait for his answer and sometimes

54:58

I get my way and sometimes I don't But I Just want to be in God's will and there's no better place

55:07

For a wife to be I think her primary ministry is to her husband

55:14

And I don't care what else she does in life That's her primary ministry, and she's also ministering to her children but her children get grown and they get gone and That's a different role then with the children

55:32

Well Martha, I definitely want to have you back on the program and after the show is over after our second guest is off the air

55:39

I'll contact you and give you a list of dates because I definitely want you to return All right.

55:44

I may or may not Be home, but you can leave a message and we'll

55:50

Just email me And was that Let's see

55:58

Bible data service at mindspring .com. Is that your email address? Yes, and if anybody wants to see where I'm speaking next they can look on my website.

56:09

It's Martha peace calm Martha peace calm calm and then

56:15

I'm I Am a volunteer counselor at my church. We're an official

56:21

ACBC training center it faith Bible Church dot us

56:27

Great, and I left off a letter. I think of your email address. It's Bible data services at mindspring .com

56:38

That's right. Well, thank you. So thank you so much Martha And we look forward to having you back on the program for a longer interview

56:44

And thank you so much for being on with absolutely no notice at all Well, thank you

56:51

Chris, I enjoyed it, thank you and don't bless you too and don't go away folks because coming up The next hour we are going to have

57:00

Josh Bice on the program the founder and director of the g3 conference he is going to be discussing real church versus Facebook Church, and if you'd like to join us with a message for with a question

57:14

I should say for Josh Bice our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris a

57:21

RN Z n at gmail .com. Don't go away. God willing. We'll be right back with pastor Josh Bice after these messages from our sponsors

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God?

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Or am I trying to please man if I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ Hi, I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church We are a reformed

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That's chef exclusive calm Welcome back. This is Chris Sorensen.

01:05:26

If you just tuned us in our second guest today Will be Pastor Josh Bice who is the senior pastor of Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia And blogger at delivered by grace .com

01:05:38

He's also director of the annual g3 conference. And today we are going to be talking about real church versus Facebook Church But before we go on to our interview with Pastor Josh I just have a couple of important announcements to make

01:05:54

The fellowship conference New England is being held August 3rd through the 5th at the Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine and the speakers at that conference include

01:06:04

Pastor Don Curran the Eastern European coordinator with heart cry missionary society

01:06:10

Which is the organization founded by Paul Washer my friend pastor Mac Tomlinson Who's an author and the pastor at Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas?

01:06:21

Pastor Jesse Barrington pastor of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas the sister church of Grace Life Church in Lake City, Florida That runs the radio station

01:06:31

Grace Life Radio that airs iron sharpens iron radio every day in its pre -recorded form and Pastor Nate Pickowitz is also on the roster

01:06:40

He is an author of a book that we addressed recently on iron sharpens iron with pastor

01:06:46

Nate reviving New England and he's also the pastor of The Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Ironworks, New Hampshire If you'd like to register for this conference go to fellowship conference new england .com

01:07:00

fellowship conference new england .com Then after that in November from the 17th through the 18th

01:07:05

The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is conducting their Quaker town conference on reform theology the title of this conference is for still our ancient foe a line from the the world -renowned hymn by Martin Luther a mighty fortress and The speakers at this

01:07:25

Quaker town conference on reform theology include Kent Hughes Peter Jones Tom Nettles Dennis Cahill and Scott Oliphant if you would like to register for this conference

01:07:36

The email of the website I should say is Alliance net org Alliance net org click on events and then click on Quaker town conference on Reformed theology and then we have the g3 conference that we'll be discussing more over the next hour the g3 conference from January 18th through the 20th with a

01:07:56

Spanish edition on January 17th and speakers at this conference there are many but they include

01:08:06

God willing Paul Washer Steven Lawson Bodhi Balcom HB Charles jr

01:08:11

Tim Challis my guest today for the second hour Josh Bice Our mutual friend.

01:08:17

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega ministries Tom Askell who is the president of founders ministries

01:08:24

Anthony Mathenia who's gonna be my guest pretty soon on iron sharpens iron as is

01:08:29

Michael Kruger David Miller Paul Tripp who's also coming up as a guest in the near future

01:08:35

Todd Friel another one who's coming up as a guest very soon Derek Thomas and Martha peace who we just had on for the last hour the previous hour on iron sharpens iron

01:08:46

If you would like to register for this conference go to g3 conference .com

01:08:51

g3 conference calm and finally, I have to do that thing that I hate doing but my

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Advertisers are urging me to do it every day They want me to make public appeals

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01:10:39

Then I would be more than delighted to work with you on an advertising campaign And now we are entering into the discussion that I mentioned just moments ago

01:10:50

We have passed pastor Josh Bice on now for the remaining hour of the program

01:10:55

Pastor of praise mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia. We are discussing The real church versus the

01:11:03

Facebook Church and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio pastor

01:11:08

Josh Bice And Just briefly since I've already discussed it a bit let our listeners know about the g3 conference coming up in 2018

01:11:21

What are some issues you say No, I said just briefly describe the g3 conference.

01:11:26

So that's coming up in January Yeah, sure the g3 conference coming up in January will be on the team knowing

01:11:34

God a biblical understanding of discipleship and so for basically three days

01:11:40

We will be meeting in Atlanta, Georgia to talk about and preach on that very subject that we will have main session

01:11:49

Sessions that will be dealing with the very subject of discipleship as well as Q &A sessions and breakout sessions so various different topics under one theme of Discipleship and quite frankly, it's something that's extremely important something that we must get right in the church today

01:12:09

I think that in many ways we don't get it, right I think that we go about discipleship from from wrong perspectives and through a you know

01:12:18

An incorrect lens you might say at times and so I think it's really good for us to come together and this again

01:12:25

It's not a church. It's not a conference just for church leaders or for pastors It's a conference for the local church

01:12:32

And so I think it would be good for all of us to you know Carve out time over three days to just think about how we could do better at this very subject

01:12:41

And remember if you want to register go to g3 conference calm g3 conference calm and please

01:12:48

Let the folks know who are taking your registration that you heard about it From Chris Arnson of iron sharpens iron radio and that goes for all of the events that we are publicizing on this program

01:13:00

Please let those who are orchestrating those events know that you heard about it from us on iron sharpens iron radio

01:13:07

And now we are going to be discussing something that is very timely

01:13:12

Very important a lot more important than the person the average person might think at first glance but real church versus Facebook Church, especially in light of some of the controversies that are bubbling over as of late

01:13:30

There is a danger of people who are on Facebook trolling around Trying to make their opinions known and very often

01:13:41

Publicly condemning brothers and sisters in Christ and and even to the point of malicious slander and so on and these people who are a part of this quote -quote

01:13:54

Facebook Church are Obviously most often the leaders or pastors of this fictitious

01:14:01

Church That doesn't exist because they are this is probably the only

01:14:06

Avenue they have to vent Their ugliness, but if you could let us know what was the catalyst behind your wanting to discuss real church versus Facebook Church Well, Chris, I think the problem is simply this

01:14:22

I think that in our modern attempt to make Our lives more connected you might say within the evangelical community across all the nominations

01:14:33

We we want to figure out ways to be more connected And so we often look to technology to bridge the gap to make us more connected

01:14:43

Unfortunately Technology is not a foolproof Method. It's not a fail -proof method.

01:14:49

It has its flaws. It has its deficiencies and We need to be honest about those deficiencies.

01:14:56

We don't need to you know employ Certain types of techniques and Technologies within the local church and expect all of our problems, you know suddenly go away

01:15:08

What we need to realize is that the church and to be a member of a local church is it's difficult at times

01:15:14

It takes effort it takes Patience we have to deal with personalities and problems and and friendships that are often, you know hard at times and so What we do with technology is we try to Make all those problems go away.

01:15:34

So I think in many ways we have made friendships too easy to form and often too easy to Dissolve through social media.

01:15:43

I think we we just really need to be honest with ourselves and understand that real friendship is more than just a click of a button and to to you know

01:15:55

Dissolve a friendship to come to the end of a friendship should be Much more heartbreaking than just an unfriend button on you know, some social media platform

01:16:05

So I think that here recently Martin Zuckerberg the CEO of Facebook which again just prides itself with having two billion users a hundred million of those particular users are connected in some meaningful community and Recently in a particular statement that he made as he was giving a speech about his new plans

01:16:31

For the direction of the company. He was talking about the need to bring the world closer together and so what he was tapping into was this idea that church attendance and Church membership is on a decline and has been for a number of years, especially within the

01:16:49

Protestant You know that the Protestant categories you might say evangelicalism and so a great large number of that decline is centered on Millennials and What he wants to tap into is this idea that with?

01:17:08

organization Membership declining across the board not just churches, but other organizations as well

01:17:16

Those particular Organizations are declining in membership and attendance and what he wants to do is figure out a way to tap into that and Figure out ways to bring people to a meaningful relationship and community through Facebook and so what we

01:17:34

What we need to understand is that that is not possible You cannot replace church with Facebook You might be able to use technology, but you can't replace

01:17:46

The Church of Jesus Christ with some type of social media network. It's just impossible

01:17:52

Let me repeat our email address if anybody would like to join us on the air Our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

01:17:59

chris arnzen at gmail .com if you have a question for Pastor Bice on Real Church vs.

01:18:07

Facebook Church and If you'd like to remain anonymous, please only do so if it is about a personal and private matter

01:18:13

But otherwise, please give us your first name city and state and country of residence

01:18:19

We have CJ and Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York Who says

01:18:24

I have heard some from Christians that I know who do not belong to any particular church

01:18:30

That there is nothing biblical about church membership and that they are free

01:18:35

To drift from church to church as they please Seeking to find a home that most biblically suits their own theology and they are not commanded to be a member of any specific church and They are not commanded to be under the authority of any specific pastor or group of elders

01:18:58

But is this not a fictional? defense of what they are doing

01:19:06

Well as far as you know people, you know claiming that they don't need to be a part of a local church or that they can't

01:19:13

You know flip a page in the Bible and find where it says thou shalt become a member of a particular local church

01:19:20

Well that simply That's not a good grant to make a decision on whether or not you're a member of a church

01:19:27

I think that if you want to logically read the scriptures, you know, just just to be clear

01:19:33

We don't have a place in the Bible where it says thou shalt believe in the Trinity either And what we need to understand is that in order to be a

01:19:40

Christian you must embrace the doctrine of the Trinity When it comes to the the subject of church membership, oftentimes people say well

01:19:48

I'm just free to float from church to church if I want to we must be

01:19:55

Clear about a few very important things. Number one. We must ask ourselves this question Who's in charge of disciplining and holding someone accountable that just wants to float from church to church, right?

01:20:06

If someone says I want to be a part of Praise Mill Baptist Church in Douglasville, Georgia this week, but next week

01:20:14

I'm going to be engaged in a virtual church where we meet in Facebook groups Then I ask this question who's supposed to be involved in the you know

01:20:24

The whole leadership accountability and the membership accountability and holding someone accountable for you know

01:20:31

Their faith and their doctrine and the purity of their life So the question becomes this if they're no longer a member of this church this week

01:20:39

And now they've become a member of say some Facebook community group next week is Zuckerberg is he and his staff supposed to oversee church

01:20:49

And And So I it may be laughter among, you know, so many people that say well

01:20:57

I don't think that church discipline is very important anyway, so let's just move on and talk about something else

01:21:02

But you know, I think that church discipline is that at the heart and core of this discussion

01:21:08

So who is it to oversee? Such, you know issues as say the

01:21:14

Lord suffered church discipline various other things that were called to do as Christians and so Church membership might not seem as a vitally important, you know subject matter for some people

01:21:27

But I think if they were to be pressed on these issues You know, it's at the core of what makes someone

01:21:35

Healthy versus just just floating along in a Christian life And I think that we can't just approach the church with that type of attitude.

01:21:44

Yeah. In fact, we have a clear Biblical mandate and Hebrews chapter 13 verses 17 obey your leaders and submit to them

01:21:53

For they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account

01:21:58

Let them do this with joy and not with grief for this would be unprofitable for you

01:22:04

Obviously this wasn't a suggestion This was a command that we obey

01:22:11

Those whom God has placed over us In the church, it's obviously talking about the church because it says for they keep watch over your souls

01:22:20

And of course, there are other places as well in fact, even the qualifications

01:22:28

That the Apostle Paul gives in first Timothy 2 and other places for a shepherd or an elder or an overseer there obviously since he is very meticulous and Clear about there being strict requirements for those being eligible for those roles

01:22:45

If if one didn't even need to be a member of a church, there would be no need for those strict qualifications

01:22:51

Yeah, absolutely Centers on the aspect of a local tangible visible

01:22:59

New Testament Church where there are meaningful relationships and roles and Responsibilities and so you have in 1st

01:23:08

Corinthians 12 the church is described as a body you have in other places such as in Hebrews 10 25 you have the church as an assembly you have the church as a flock in 1st

01:23:19

Peter chapter 5 again, you have the church described as a building in 1st

01:23:24

Corinthians chapter 3 and so the question becomes this if all of those analogies are there in place and The New Testament is just filled with the language of one another love one another

01:23:38

Look after one another Discipline one another that type of language is used in the local church language of the

01:23:45

New Testament Then I think that you would be hard -pressed to find some type of you know

01:23:52

Freedom to just be a church floater. I think that you have to give yourself To submit yourself to particular local church

01:24:00

Overseers pastors who would feed your family with the Word of God and then oversee your soul

01:24:08

Amen, I'm gonna take our final break right now just to prevent interrupting you mid -sentence

01:24:14

So this will be our last half hour of today's interview with Josh Bice If you would like to join us on the air with a question

01:24:22

Please do so fairly quickly before we run out of time. Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com

01:24:28

Chris Arnson at gmail .com and by the way, CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York You have also won a free copy of the excellent wife a biblical perspective the expanded edition

01:24:42

By Martha Peace who is our guest for the first hour and who is also one of the speakers at Pastor Josh Bice's g3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia coming up in January.

01:24:55

Please make sure we have your full mailing address CJ so we can have Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CVBBS .com

01:25:02

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01:25:15

Don't go away we will be right back God willing with more of Pastor Josh Bice and Real Church versus Facebook Church Hi, I'm pastor

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01:31:29

This is Chris Arnzen, and this is our last half hour of today's interview with Josh Bice, senior pastor of Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia, blogger at deliveredbygrace .com,

01:31:41

and director of the annual G3 Conference in Atlanta, Georgia. If you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

01:31:52

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com, and please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside of the

01:32:02

USA. There is a growing number, or at least,

01:32:08

I don't know if the number is growing, but they're certainly becoming more vocal because of the advantages we have in this modern day and age of technology, the easy ability to not only transmit our thoughts, but also to receive thoughts of others, whether wanted or unwanted.

01:32:28

And there seems to be a growing number of people using social media, as I mentioned earlier, as a soapbox to slander others.

01:32:38

And this is a horrible witness to the lost world around us, is it not?

01:32:47

Well, it's definitely a horrible witness. I think that you can use social media to bring light to particular heresies and heretics, you know, wolves that might be clothed in sheep's clothing.

01:32:59

That type of thing, I think, is a good thing. But to just simply gather up or huddle up in little groups on Facebook and, you know, go through character assassinations, you know,

01:33:11

I think that that's certainly unprofitable for the whole of the church, you might say. Yeah, and I've mentioned this the other day on Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio, but there is a phenomenon that many people are aware of called beer muscles, where people, when they reach a certain level of intoxication, think that they are much more powerful and skilled at fighting than they really are.

01:33:38

And unfortunately for those people, they very often wind up getting severely injured in fights in bars and other places because of that.

01:33:46

And there seems to be a phenomenon called keyboard muscles, where you have people in the privacy and safety of their own basements, perhaps even very often their mother's basements, who think that they are these important, powerful individuals with voices that must be heard, and they are more prone, because of their safety and at times their being anonymous, or at least having their locations being unknown, they are much more bold in the way that they word things and the accusations that they make.

01:34:25

And even us, who are trying to be civil and respectful and cordial and humble and meek, as Christ commands us to, we might even be more prone to be that way ourselves, if we are letting ourselves get out of hand when it comes to this whole idea of using the

01:34:48

Facebook and social media as a platform to vent. Am I right? Yeah, I think so.

01:34:54

I think that you might call that liquid courage. And I think that when it comes to social media and people that like to use that in that particular way, they get what's called keyboard courage, and so they hide behind a computer screen, and they want to slander someone's name in a way that they would not dare challenge them in a meaningful, real conversation face -to -face.

01:35:19

And again, that's the deficiency of, say, a social networking platform versus a real, tangible, visible church, where you have real personalities that have to sit beside one another in a worship gathering, and they have to interact with one another in particular ministry involvement.

01:35:39

And so I think that we've made or we've cheapened relationships, quite frankly, through social media.

01:35:45

You know, what used to be a real relationship has now been relegated down to the click of a button, and I think that you can't do that in the life of the church.

01:35:53

Look, let's just face it. Zuckerberg got it right when he said that there are people who, you know, find meaning and need to find genuine meaning in relationships, and that's how they become more whole as a person.

01:36:08

I agree with that. I think that we're wired that way. I just simply think that Jesus' church is the mandate for Christians, not social networking communities.

01:36:21

So I find it very troubling, Chris, when I hear stories of people who are huddled up in coffee shops on the

01:36:29

Lord's Day, listening to their favorite celebrity preacher preach, rather than being involved in a local church.

01:36:35

And they find it easier that way, because again, they're attracted to virtual reality rather than just simple reality, or they're attracted to artificial intelligence, you know, as opposed to, say, just simple intelligence that's being exemplified from a pulpit, you know, preaching the

01:36:54

Word of God and engaging the mind and the heart and the whole of the individual sitting out there in the congregation.

01:37:02

We're attracted to social media rather than real friendships or real communities.

01:37:08

All of this is invoked presently in our culture. But what we need is we need real, vibrant, healthy relationships engaged in real communities where there can be genuine depth, you know, to those friendships, and that's built in a real church.

01:37:26

And so we often look at Jesus' model and we say, well, that's outdated or that's old -fashioned.

01:37:33

But what we need to be reminded of is that Jesus' church and His model will never be updated by any form of technology.

01:37:41

It simply will not be possible to overdo or outperform Jesus' model.

01:37:47

So, you know, in recent days we've seen some younger people join our church.

01:37:52

In particular, there's one couple, and they've joined our church, or they're actually in the process of joining.

01:37:58

They've not formally gone through the membership process. They're scheduled to do that when we offer our next new members class, and that'll be in mid -August.

01:38:07

But they were, you know, once upon a time engaged in, you know, these

01:38:13

Facebook, online, social media communities, and that's where they were finding their real community.

01:38:20

And so there was another particular couple in our church that was reaching out to them, trying to, you know, encourage them that that's not what, you know,

01:38:27

God intends, you know, for their lives. And so they persuaded them through the

01:38:32

Word of God, and they started attending our church, and now they're understanding that they need more than just a social networking group.

01:38:40

They need something far better than that, and they find that in a local church. And so we need to look beyond social media and see what

01:38:49

God expects for His people, and that's the local church. That's the plan for Christians.

01:38:55

Now, can we use social media? That's another question to be explored, and I think that we can.

01:39:00

I think that we can do that in a very helpful way, in a very healthy way, but it can't replace the church, if that makes sense.

01:39:08

Amen. In fact, I've been hearing at a couple of conferences I've attended recently, people bring this up, this very issue up.

01:39:18

Although the Holy Spirit can and often has and does use the electronic media, the written word, and the

01:39:34

CDs and the DVDs that are available, and so on, social media, whatever media that is around where you can communicate ideas, the

01:39:47

Holy Spirit often uses these things to bring a person to repentance and salvation.

01:39:53

But there is something very unique about the assembled gathering of the saints at the local worship services.

01:40:04

Isn't Christ present in a unique way that He is not present when somebody is just sitting in a coffee shop or in the basement of their house listening to or watching a sermon being preached?

01:40:19

Most definitely, most definitely. So for me, I was converted listening to a preacher preach on the

01:40:26

Internet. I was at work in Atlanta, Georgia, seated at my desk. I was working on a computer, and I was listening to a sermon, and the

01:40:34

Lord converted me. The Lord saved me. But let's just be clear. While we can use electronic media technology to bridge a gap, say, in evangelism or even discipleship,

01:40:50

I think that having websites and having social media presence is a good thing.

01:40:56

When I'm listening to Martin Lloyd -Jones preach, there was something unique that was happening in that particular congregation on the

01:41:06

Lord's Day as he was in that lofty pulpit with the open Bible preaching the

01:41:11

Word of God. There was something unique that was happening, and you can't replicate that.

01:41:17

You can't get that years later through just clicking a button and listening to his voice come through the speakers of your smartphone.

01:41:24

It just doesn't work that way. You can learn from him, and you can certainly study the Word of God and listen to the man preach the

01:41:31

Word and rightly handle the Word of God, but you can't get or replicate or duplicate what was happening in a very unique sense as the

01:41:42

Lord's Supper was observed, and the people were gathered, and their attention was focused on the pulpit when a man stood with the open

01:41:50

Bible and proclaimed the Word of God. Amen. I have something that I'd like to ask you about before I go to Ronald in eastern

01:42:00

Suffolk County who has a question. I was taken aback by a professed brother in Christ who not long ago defrauded me out of money that was owed to me due to an agreement that we had, and when

01:42:22

I got the brother's pastor involved because he was not listening to my rebuke or my requests, he was taken aback and said,

01:42:38

How dare you get my church involved? And it's quite amazing for me because the man had been a

01:42:47

Christian for decades. I think he might have even been raised in the faith, and this whole aspect of the

01:42:56

Facebook church or people thinking that they are safe and they are right with God and all is well, even if they have no connection to the body of Christ with elders over them.

01:43:10

The very fact that the Bible gives the blueprint on how to resolve those issues in places such as Matthew 18 and others where we have an avenue where we can go if we're trying to make things right in a certain situation and we are speaking to deaf ears, we have the church to go to.

01:43:34

Isn't this one of the crucial avenues or reasons that we need to be members of a local church, not just visitors who drift here and there, so we can resolve serious conflicts?

01:43:53

Well, absolutely, Chris. It's unfortunate that we've arrived at a place where we think that our faith is something that should be considered private.

01:44:01

But what we need to realize is that our faith is never to be considered private, it's to be considered public.

01:44:07

It's a very public thing. Christ called us publicly, we've made a public profession of our faith, we're asking people to hold us accountable to that faith as we enter the baptistry.

01:44:18

On an ongoing basis, it should be that we're asking and expecting people to hold us accountable as we observe the

01:44:25

Lord's Supper. And so for us to consider that our faith is a private thing, and for people to not be able to engage us in that particular area of life is simply not true.

01:44:38

But let's face it, once upon a time there was what we called front porch communities. They were replaced years ago by the back porch and privacy fences.

01:44:47

And now what we're seeing with this whole idea of virtual church is the idea of making church invisible altogether.

01:44:56

And so what was once a front porch thing then was made more private with the back porch, and now it's become not the church with the back porch, it's now the church that's invisible altogether.

01:45:09

And so we want to be very anonymous so that we can't be held accountable, and that's really at the core of that type of attitude is that we just simply don't have time for people, and we don't want to be held accountable for anything.

01:45:24

We have Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who asks, Do you think that some of the fault lay at the average evangelical church, at least in America, who has viewed the

01:45:39

Lord's Supper and the ordinances as something of very little significance, perhaps in an overreaction to Rome's heresy that equates salvific issues to these ordinances?

01:45:53

Aren't we looking upon the ordinances in too light of a fashion, and therefore others believe they have no need to be a part of a gathered assembly and under the authority of elders, because if they miss the ordinances, who cares?

01:46:10

They don't really have anything to do with entering eternal glory.

01:46:17

Yeah, I think Ronald's question is extremely important, something I'm very passionate about.

01:46:22

I think that when it comes to the local church, as far as the evangelical church is concerned,

01:46:28

I think that there has been a downgrade of understanding as far as what the ordinances actually mean.

01:46:35

I think when it comes to the Lord's table that we have certainly relegated that down to a snack at the end of the sermon rather than what

01:46:44

God intended it to be. And I think the problem with that is simply this. You could go in many churches on the

01:46:50

Lord's Day, and as people filed out into the parking lot, you could ask them, hey, listen, what's more important, the dodgeball tournament that your church is sponsoring for this upcoming

01:47:00

Saturday or the Lord's Supper the following day? And a lot of people would say, well,

01:47:06

I think that we can reach more people at that dodgeball tournament, so I'm going to put a higher priority on that than I am the

01:47:13

Lord's table. And that may seem trivial or that may seem to miss the mark in many people's estimation, but I think that if we were to be really honest and just do a survey at the average

01:47:27

Christian bookstore on Friday afternoon and just ask those questions, most people would value other things the church does on a much higher level than they would the observance of the

01:47:41

Lord's Supper. And so, yeah, I think that when we diminish the Lord's table, when we diminish the importance of baptism, when we diminish, you know, the right preaching of the

01:47:52

Word of God, then as a result, you're going to see people that just flock to these little virtual churches and they think that that's where they can be said the

01:48:02

Word of God and that's all they need. Yeah, thank you, Ronald, in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island.

01:48:08

And you have also won a free copy of The Excellent Wife, A Biblical Perspective.

01:48:14

If you are not married, read it, enjoy it, glean from it what you will and perhaps pass it on to somebody who is engaged or is already married, a woman especially.

01:48:28

And if you are married, I would urge you, obviously, to give it to your wife. Not to say that you can't share in the information in there, but just make sure we have your full mailing address and we'll have

01:48:41

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, send you The Excellent Wife, A Biblical Perspective, the expanded edition by Martha Peace, who was our first guest today and who is also a speaker at the upcoming

01:48:53

G3 conference that is directed by my guest right now,

01:48:59

Josh Bice. We have a warning in 1

01:49:06

Corinthians, as you know, I'm picking up on where Pastor, or should

01:49:12

I say Ronald, from Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, I'm picking up on his question and I'm adding to his question a question of my own regarding 1

01:49:26

Corinthians 11 where the Apostle Paul is discussing the fact and he's warning about the fact that people who are partaking of the

01:49:39

Lord's Supper in an improper manner are weak and sick and a number have fallen asleep, which means they died.

01:49:48

Do you think that that is restricted only to those who are partaking of the Supper improperly and not those who are actually not even partaking of it at all because they're not a member of a church or are not even darkening the door of a church?

01:50:07

Well, I don't think that it's necessarily limited to those who are partaking versus those who are just skipping it altogether.

01:50:14

I think the real question would simply be this, if it's okay for you to go for months on end skipping the

01:50:22

Lord's Supper in the regular gathering of your local church, then you just really need to examine yourself and find out if you are indeed in the faith because Jesus has commanded us to observe the

01:50:36

Lord's Supper. It's a vitally important aspect of what it means to be a

01:50:41

Christian and what it means to practice our faith, to remember the body and the blood of Christ and so to profane it, you know, in a sense of abuse in a local gathering like this particular church did in the

01:50:56

Church of Corinth, or to, you know, just avoid it altogether, I think that you are guilty of profaning the

01:51:03

Lord's table. You certainly are guilty of trampling underfoot the blood of Christ in some way.

01:51:09

So I think we need to be careful with that. But back to the main issue of Facebook church, how does a

01:51:16

Facebook or a virtual reality church, you know, some type of social media networking church, how does that church gather and observe the

01:51:26

Lord's Supper? Do they just do it themselves and they all get together in some type of, you know, chat room and then they just observe it together so they self -serve themselves, or how does that work?

01:51:39

And I think that we haven't really thought out these things properly before we just engage in that type of model, so to speak.

01:51:48

So I think that we need to be careful. We need to push back against this type of talk. It's one thing for Zuckerberg to throw the church in with just the average community group because the church certainly isn't, you know, just some average chess club or some, you know, bird -watching club or something like that.

01:52:06

It's something far greater. And so we need to put a great emphasis. And I think that older generations,

01:52:13

I think people 40 and 50 and 60 years of age, I think we need to be beating a drum and putting a high priority upon the local church so that the younger population does not look at the church as just something that's just optional.

01:52:26

I can have my Jesus, but I don't need His church. That type of thinking does not work with, you know, the gospel of Jesus Christ.

01:52:34

Amen. And let's see. We have Christian in Suffolk County, New York, who asks,

01:52:45

Can something be crucial without it being absolutely necessary for salvation? And this is in regard to what you have been saying about the ordinances.

01:52:54

We who are Protestant, at least those who are faithful to the Calvinistic branch of the

01:53:00

Reformation, do not believe that the ordinances are salvific. In fact, we often say that to believe so is heretical.

01:53:09

But can these things not be crucial without being absolutely necessary? Yes, absolutely.

01:53:16

So I would be considered a Reformed pastor. I would embrace the Reformed perspective when it comes to the ordinances.

01:53:25

I believe that the Roman Catholic Church's understanding of the Lord's Supper and transubstantiation is an absolute heresy.

01:53:34

But when it comes to the Lord's Supper, we don't need to say,

01:53:39

Well, if Rome got it wrong with it being absolutely necessary for salvation, a necessity for salvation, then we don't need to let the pendulum swing so far in the opposite direction that we, you know, diminish the value of it.

01:53:55

So it's definitely a crucial issue, something that must be carried out in the life of the local church and something that a

01:54:02

Christian must be engaged in. But it's not as if I have to, you know, observe the

01:54:09

Lord's Supper. We should view it in the opposite direction. We should view it in the sense that because Jesus has saved me and because the blood of Christ has covered me and because I've received the righteousness of this

01:54:22

Christ by imputation, then I'm freed up to and I'm allowed to,

01:54:28

I'm permitted to draw near to the Lord's table on the Lord's Day.

01:54:33

I think we should view it from that particular lens. Yes, and in fact the irony is that on the one side of their mouth, the

01:54:42

Church of Rome says that the baptism and the Lord's Supper are necessary for salvation, and then out of the other side of their mouth, their proverbial mouth, they say that Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists and atheists may enter eternal life if they live according to the light that they have been given.

01:55:02

So it really becomes almost meaningless anyway in this day and age. Oh yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

01:55:08

But I think the person's question is key. I think that we can see something as crucial without it being necessary for salvation.

01:55:17

It's not that we come to the Lord's table in order to be saved, it's we come to the

01:55:22

Lord's Supper because we have been saved, and that's the key. Amen. Well, I'd like you, with the time that we have left, about three or four minutes, if you could summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners in regard to real church versus Facebook church.

01:55:39

I just think that I would like to drive home this clear point that, Chris, it's extremely important for us to value the local church gathering, not something that's optional, not something that can be just replaced.

01:55:51

I think that all of the modern things that we enjoy, the technology that we enjoy, the advancements that we enjoy in our particular day,

01:56:01

I think that we can say that's a wonderful thing. We can use iPads to reach from, we can use screens in the sanctuary, or if you don't like the term sanctuary, the worship center of your local particular church, to display words or to display the notes of the pastor.

01:56:21

We can have a website. We can have social media channels and, you know, a presence for our local church.

01:56:30

We can engage in Facebook groups and have meaningful discussions. But all of these things can never replace the regular and weekly gathering on the

01:56:42

Lord's Day, on the day where we remember the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

01:56:48

We can't replace the local church as Jesus instituted it and founded it with new forms of technology.

01:56:57

So no matter how advanced technology becomes, no matter how good some person like Zuckerberg might be, we can't replace real community in the church with some type of networking community through screens.

01:57:12

It just simply won't work. If you take FaceTime, for instance, you can FaceTime and video conference and talk with your family when you're away from your family for long periods of time.

01:57:22

But when you enter that airport and you long to embrace one another, that tells you that that technology might have been good for a short period of time, but it's not good for the long haul.

01:57:36

You need something more. You need a real embrace. You need real interaction, and that's the same for the church.

01:57:42

And so we must not diminish the value of the local church. Well, I want to make sure that our listeners have all of your websites and contact information.

01:57:54

In Praise Mill Baptist Church in Douglasville, Georgia, their website is PraiseMill .com,

01:58:00

and praise is spelled P -R -A -Y -S -Mill .com. And then we also have, obviously,

01:58:08

G3Conference .com, G3Conference .com. I want to remind our listeners that Focus Publishing, who gave us the copies of The Excellent Wife by Martha Peace, who was our first guest, their website is

01:58:22

FocusPublishing .com. That's FocusPublishing .com. And Martha Peace has her own website,

01:58:31

MarthaPeace .com, MarthaPeace .com. And as I said earlier, she is one of the speakers at the

01:58:40

G3 Conference, the conference that our current guest, Josh Bice, is founder and director of.

01:58:47

And so make sure that you visit MarthaPeace .com.

01:58:54

And also I want to remind our listeners that we were intending to have Adams Road on the program, and they could not be our guests today because of the fact that they did not have phone access to conduct an off -site interview.

01:59:09

If you want to find out where they're going to be performing next, their website is AdamsRoadMinistry .com.

01:59:18

AdamsRoadMinistry .com. And hopefully we will have them on the program in the near future. I want to thank you so much,

01:59:23

Pastor Josh Bice, with very little notice, for coming on the program today.

01:59:28

And I look forward to having you back on Iron Sharpens Iron very soon. Thank you, Chris. God bless.

01:59:34

I want to thank everybody who listened to the program today, and especially those who took the time to write in questions. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

01:59:44

Savior than you are a sinner. We look forward to hearing from you and your questions next time on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.