March 3, 2022 Show with Jono Sims on “The Centrality of the Local Church”

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March 4, 2022

March 3, 2022 JONO SIMS, Senior Pastor at Shelbyville Mills Baptist Church in Shelbyville, TN, who will address: “The CENTRALITY of the LOCAL CHURCH”

00:04: Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown
00:10: Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,
00:23: Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
00:31: Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
00:38: Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
00:50: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
00:58: And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,
01:10: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity on the planet
01:16: Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is
01:21: Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this third day of March 2022.
01:30: Before I introduce my guest today and the topic we are going to be addressing, I just wanted to extend another prayer request from you who are listening for the health, safety, and well -being of my friend
01:46: Mykola Leliovsky, who is professor of biblical theology and hermeneutics at Grace Bible Seminary in Kiev, Ukraine, and he's also a member of the leadership team at Grace Bible Church in Kiev.
02:02: We had him on the program Tuesday, March 1st, live from Ukraine, and he is still safe and sound, but we ask of you to continue to pray that he remains that way in addition to the faculty and students at Grace Bible Seminary and the congregation of Grace Bible Church in Kiev.
02:25: And of course, we ask of you to continue to pray for the entire nation of Ukraine during this frightening time in their history as the
02:36: Russians are still there wreaking havoc and involving themselves in terrorist activity, but we know that we can count on our
02:49: Christian listeners in our audience to pray for Ukraine and those whom
02:56: I specifically mentioned. Today, I am so thrilled to have back on the program a brother who
03:04: I just saw and heard preach in person recently when I was at the True Church Conference in Muscle Shoals, Alabama for the first time in my life.
03:15: His name is Jono Sims, a .k .a. Jonathan Sims, and he is senior pastor at Shelbyville Mills Baptist Church in Shelbyville, Tennessee, and today we are going to be addressing an extremely important theme, a theme that unfortunately and tragically there are many in the evangelical church at large when they hear a theme like this, they may yawn with disinterest and apathy and indifference, but this is a really vital theme we are going to be addressing and perhaps it is so vital because of what
03:54: I just said that there are many people who profess to be Bible -believing Christians that view our topic on one of the lower rungs of the ladder of importance, if not leaving it off the ladder altogether.
04:09: The theme today is the centrality of the local church, and it is my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Jono Sims.
04:21: Well, brother, it was a joy to meet you at the True Church Conference and get to know you a little bit better, and so thankful you were there, and it's a joy to be back on the program with you today.
04:35: And I want to urge my listeners, if you live in Tennessee or if you're passing through Tennessee on vacation or on a business trip, or if you have family friends and loved ones in Tennessee, make sure you make the effort to visit the church that I have been mentioning at the outset of this program,
05:02: Shelbyville Mills Baptist Church in Shelbyville, Tennessee, and you will be blessed.
05:09: If you are a child of God, you will certainly be blessed by the preaching and teaching of Pastor Jono Sims.
05:16: I was utterly blown away by this, dear brother, and I can understand readily now why
05:24: Jeff Knoblett of Grace Life Church of the Shoals in Muscle Shoals, Alabama, continues to invite
05:33: Pastor Jono back year after year to preach at the True Church Conference, and I know that our guest is probably embarrassed because he is a very humble man of God, but I think we should give credit where credit is due, and we should lift up and encourage our brethren, perhaps especially those in ministry, when we know that they are faithfully serving our
06:00: Lord God, Savior, and King Christ Jesus with the true gospel and the true teachings of the inerrant word.
06:09: Why don't you tell our listeners about Shelbyville Mills Baptist Church in Shelbyville, Tennessee?
06:16: Well, brother, I've been here a little over 22 years as the senior pastor, and when
06:26: I came here, the church, like one of the churches in Asia Minor, had a name that they lived but were dead.
06:37: It was a very unhealthy church. Your typical decisional regeneration
06:46: Southern Baptist Church, pray a prayer, walk an aisle, raise your hand to be saved, very much numbers church growth oriented.
06:57: And, you know, there's so much I could say, but God in His grace and His mercy allowed me to survive a split two years into the ministry here.
07:08: I mean, literally survive and come out on the other side. And the Lord Jesus began to build
07:14: His church here, brother. And we're over 20 years on the other side of that split now, and obviously not a perfect church, but a healthy church.
07:29: And there's a lot of joy here. There's a lot of love here. And I think a maturing congregation.
07:39: And I want to just emphatically state that it's due to precept upon precept, line upon line, verse by verse, expository preaching of God's Holy Word.
07:52: The Holy Spirit has used that, and He always does, to build
07:58: His church. The church is supposed to be the pillar and the ground of the truth, 1
08:04: Timothy 3, verse 15 says. And, Chris, that's what we're striving to be.
08:09: We're striving to be the pillar and the ground of the truth in our area here for the glory of Christ.
08:16: Praise God. By the way, folks, I want to highly recommend a booklet, a very inexpensive booklet that you can purchase from Chapel Library, who brings back into print booklets that are excerpts typically of larger volumes by great men of faith throughout history.
08:41: And this happens to be a fairly contemporary name, James Adams, not
08:46: J. Adams, James Adams. He wrote a booklet called
08:52: Decisional Regeneration. And because of our brother
08:57: Jono's mentioning that heresy that is prevalent throughout evangelicalism, I just wanted to plug that booklet.
09:05: If you go to chapellibrary .org, chapellibrary .org, and if you type in the search engine
09:11: Decisional Regeneration by James Adams, you can order that book. It's just a 24 -page booklet, and it's only 51 cents per booklet, so it's well worth it.
09:26: And also I want to make sure that our listeners have the website for the church where our dear brother is serving as the undershepherd over God's people, smbconline .com,
09:44: smbconline .com, and that, of course, stands for Shelbyville Mills Baptist Church, smbconline .com.
09:54: And hopefully I'll remember to repeat that later on. Well, brother, as you know, unfortunately we had a mishap technologically last time you were on the program, and I was so upset.
10:07: It was one of those days when I had to go back to where the rubber meets the road in regard to what
10:16: I actually believe about the sovereignty of God, God having sovereign control over all things.
10:22: But the last program that we had featuring you as a guest, the very first time you were on the show, the interview was not recorded due to some mishap that we have no idea, my webmaster and I, have no idea how that happened.
10:38: But we usually ask our first -time guests to give a summary of their salvation testimony.
10:45: And even though this is your second time on the program since it wasn't recorded last time, if you could please give us a summary of the religious atmosphere, if any, you were raised in, and what kind of providential circumstances our sovereign
11:00: Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you. Absolutely.
11:08: Well, back to what we were talking about earlier and the book by James Adams that you mentioned there,
11:16: I was a product of Southern Baptist Decisional Regeneration teaching.
11:25: My whole life as a kid, I was brought up having taught to me that you just make a decision, you just decide, you know, to quote, let
11:38: Jesus be your Lord and your Savior. And I came through that system twice, and it is a system.
11:47: And I prayed the sinner's prayers and walked the aisle and all of those things.
11:53: I was baptized twice. But, Chris, there was never any change in my life.
11:59: There was no spiritual power in my life. There was no true conversion. Why did you get baptized the second time?
12:06: Well, I made two professions of faith, brother. I made one profession of faith when I was in elementary school, and then
12:13: I made another profession of faith when I was in high school. Even though you were not recognizing in your own life any kind of real change of heart?
12:26: That's right. I mean, you know, there would be messages preached that would really focus on getting you to make a decision.
12:39: And I remember the second time a brother came, and we had, quote, a revival series, and he preached a message on hell, which obviously
12:50: I'm for. We should preach on hell. But I was just scared I was going to go to hell. I had no intention of my life, you know, submitting to Jesus as Lord.
13:00: I just didn't want to go to hell. And so I made another profession of faith, got baptized a second time.
13:05: And again, that was at age 15. And from 15 years old to 25, when
13:13: I was truly converted, my life was filled with all of the unrighteous fruits that Paul gives, and that second half of the
13:23: Galatians, fruit of the Spirit, fruit of the flesh. You know, I had the fruit of the flesh, which was so evident in my life.
13:30: And I had habitual sin in my life, consistent, repeated patterns of habitual sin.
13:39: And I went to a pastor, the man that was a pastor at our church at that time, and my wife and I were married at this time, had our first child.
13:50: And I went to him, and I just said to him, I'm really struggling with my salvation, and I'm doubting my salvation.
13:58: And I think he was trying to help me. You know, he was. He was sincerely trying to help me. And he said, well,
14:03: Johnno, you need to read the book of 1 John. It's a book of great comfort. And I read the book of 1
14:10: John, but it didn't comfort me. Man, it condemned me.
14:16: You know, when you get to chapter 3, he talks about whoever practices sin is of the devil, because the devil sinned from the very beginning.
14:25: Whoever is born of God does not practice sin. And that was my life. My life was a consistent practice of sin.
14:33: And there was no new creature. There was no repentance. There was no lordship of Jesus Christ in my life.
14:43: And so for about a year, the only way I know how to explain it is
14:49: I came under deep, deep Holy Spirit conviction of my sin.
14:54: And because of the things that I had been taught, I could coach myself and kind of counsel myself.
15:02: Well, I'm saved. And you know, Baptists taught me once saved, always saved. Obviously, I believe in the perseverance of the saints.
15:09: Obviously, I believe in eternal security. But the way the doctrine, quote, of once saved, always saved, was taught to me was basically you're saved, and so you shouldn't examine your life.
15:23: You shouldn't look at this sin in your life, because you're saved. That's settled. Right. What they really mean is once you think you're saved, you're always saved, which is not necessarily true.
15:34: Yeah. And here's the way that goes. The preacher would say, well, now, when you prayed that prayer, did you mean it?
15:40: I mean, that becomes the evidence of salvation rather than the biblical evidences that were given, you know.
15:47: And so for about a year, I mean, every time I would get around a brother that was faithfully preaching the word, man, it would just devastate me.
15:59: I would just be under deep conviction. And my wife, she had come from a
16:05: United Methodist background, so she had no assurance of her salvation, and she was questioning me, but I couldn't really help her.
16:13: And one night, brother, it just became unbearable. I had opened up the scriptures, and I was actually at a
16:22: Bible conference, and I was so troubled. I left that conference and went out to my father -in -law's van and opened up the scriptures.
16:32: And, man, I just wrestled back and forth. And all I can tell you, brother, is the hand of God was so heavy.
16:39: God just broke me. And I surrendered. I yielded.
16:44: I completely yielded my life to Jesus Christ as Lord, and I knew that moment my life would never be the same again.
16:55: I knew that I had been converted. I knew that I had been made a new creature, and I knew there was no turning back.
17:03: And from that point at age 25 up until this very day, I'm 58, though I'm not perfect,
17:10: I would say that, man, my life has been radically different. It's been one of obedience and one of following Christ and enjoying in Christ and loving
17:20: Christ. And Christ is the Lord of my life. He's the joy and the rejoicing of my heart.
17:26: And it's just an honor and a privilege to follow Jesus Christ. But, you know, that was
17:32: Holy Spirit regeneration. And I wouldn't have been able to explain those terms to you back then, but, man,
17:39: I experienced it. And I've been walking in light of that new birth ever since that day.
17:47: And to compare that with decisional regeneration, a lot of our listeners may not be familiar with that term, but the emphasis with decisional regeneration is man, is what is going on in the mind and heart and out of the lips of the sinner who believes he is becoming a child of God merely by walking down an aisle and repeating a prayer.
18:26: And the vast difference between the regeneration that actually transforms a sinner is what you eventually, thanks be to God, experienced.
18:39: And doesn't the former, the decisional regeneration, it is really very close, and I know
18:50: I may be insulting a lot of people, but it's very close to the way those who are involved in the occult view spells and, you know, it could almost be described as magic, because as long as you recite these magic words about being a sinner and needing a
19:12: Savior and you accept Jesus into your heart, you're saved, according to many of these folks. Now, obviously, there are different varieties of people that have altercals and would fall under the umbrella of decisional regeneration heresy, but at the same time, it's really a bizarre way for those who are biblically literate to view salvation, isn't it?
19:39: Absolutely, brother. And I'll tell you another comparison here, because I think your comparison is pretty spot on there.
19:47: But growing up in the deep south here, we have just a great, great number of Church of Christ, you know, churches here that would be, you know, the offspring of Alexander Campbell and Campbellism and Campbellites, and they teach baptismal regeneration, you know.
20:09: And basically, in effect, it's the same thing. There's a formula that's put in front of you.
20:15: If you do this and you do this and you say these words, or if you get, as they say, baptized for the remission of your sins, you know, it always comes down to something man does, something man says, something man does to, quote, activate, you know, the saving grace of God.
20:32: And that view grows out of a faulty understanding that God just made a general appeal to all mankind and left it up to you to decide whether or not you want to accept that general offer, and you just make your mind up one day that you want to accept that general offer, and bing, bang, boom, you're saved.
20:56: But the problem is there's no power in it, brother. It has no power to change the corrupt, sinful will of fallen men like me.
21:07: And man, I was proof of it. My life, as a matter of fact, after I made those two professions of faith, my life got 100 % worse because I had this false assurance that, hey, once saved, always saved,
21:22: I can do whatever I want to do, you know? And it's just a deadly trap.
21:28: Yes, and I thank God that the Lord has brought a number of people in the
21:34: Church of Christ to a grace -centered, grace -focused understanding of salvation and have abandoned the legalism of the view of baptism being required for the remission of sins, water baptism.
21:54: And it's interesting when you view, whether it be somebody who believes that they need to be dunked or sprinkled or their magic words, when they go up forward at an altar call, as they refer to them, they think, these folks, that a sinner, before he is regenerate, would even want to be saved.
22:25: Like in the Church of Christ, or many of those congregations, the man or woman or older child is standing waist -high in a pool of water, waiting to be incorporated into the
22:45: Church of Christ and to be saved and to be born again, and they think that that person who is standing waist -high in that water is lost at that moment.
23:00: And why on earth would a lost person, a person who is dead in their trespasses and sins, a person who has a heart of stone, they wouldn't be wanting these things, they wouldn't have any interest in being connected to Christ and being born again, other than some kind of benefit, typically earthly benefit, that they think they are getting by being religious or a salve of the conscience, that they have a one -way ticket to heaven.
23:34: Of course, most in the Church of Christ believe you can lose your salvation, they don't believe that that would be a one -way ticket to heaven, but it is really beginning with a very flawed view of man, the nature of man, isn't it?
23:52: Brother, one hundred percent, and we have seen this, our church last year pulled out of the
24:01: Southern Baptist Convention for these and numerous other reasons, since we're talking about the local church, but what we've seen, you know,
24:10: I'm a fifth generation Southern Baptist, so it was a tough deal for me to leave the
24:17: SBC, but my whole life, first of all, I was the product of that kind of teaching, and now we've got decades and decades of the fruit, the bad fruit of that kind of teaching filling our churches, and I'll tell you, the
24:34: Southern Baptist Convention as a whole, Southern Baptist churches are full of unregenerate people, and then a pastor goes in there that's saved and called of God and filled with the
24:47: Spirit, and he's committed to preach the whole counsel of God, it's all -out war, because you have so many unregenerate people in the membership of the church that have been accepted as members, and now they're deacons or leaders or serve on committees as the way most
25:04: Baptist churches are structured like that, and it's just a stranglehold and a chokehold on the church, and it all begins with this faulty view of salvation that you walk an aisle, pray a prayer, make a decision, and you're saved.
25:19: And I think, back to what you were talking about earlier, I think the motive is, this is just my experience,
25:25: I think the motive is, it's almost like life insurance or health insurance, let's get this wrapped up, let's get our health insurance, let's get that settled, get that nailed down, you come on and make this decision, get baptized, okay, now you've got that settled, okay, we'll go on with life now.
25:41: And most people, that's what they do. Just like I bought life insurance, just like I bought health insurance,
25:46: I've got heaven insurance now, got that settled, let's just go on with life and forget about it.
25:52: And you look at their membership, and you look at their commitment to Christ, it's pretty obvious that's what it is.
26:00: And even our more serious
26:07: Roman Catholic friends, who are enslaved by a false gospel, the more serious
26:14: Roman Catholic even acknowledges that the vast majority of Roman Catholics have the same mindset, all they have to do is go to confession, and have the sacrament of penance, and it doesn't matter what they have done before, and it doesn't matter what they do after, as long as they get to confession again.
26:37: Go ahead, I'm sorry. If you're Satan and you want to deceive millions and millions of souls, what does it matter what sacrament it is, as long as you get people to accept the false sacrament?
26:49: It can be the sacrament of the Eucharist, it can be the sacrament of water baptism, or it can be the sacrament of walking the aisle and praying the prayer.
26:57: What does Satan care as long as he carries a soul to hell? And so, if you've got the wrong answer, you've got the wrong answer.
27:07: That's the problem with this whole Armenian, man -centered, synergistic view of salvation.
27:16: It's not the gospel of Jesus Christ. No, and I don't know if you know who the late
27:22: Richard Bennett was, a dear friend of mine for decades. He was a native of Ireland and a
27:31: Roman Catholic priest for quite a number of years, and God saved him, and he became a
27:37: Reformed Baptist evangelist and apologist and author, founder of the
27:43: Berean Beacon. But I had the privilege of seeing him and hearing him preach in person a number of times, and he was actually in a fundamentalist church that practiced the altar call, and he said from the podium, what is this nonsense about the altar call where you're calling upon people to invite
28:09: Jesus into your heart? He said, as a Roman Catholic, I invited
28:15: Jesus into my heart and even my mouth and stomach through the Eucharist every day didn't make me any more saved than I was before.
28:25: And this whole concept of inviting Jesus in your heart is not even a biblical one.
28:30: Jesus wants to remove the hearts of his people, his elect who are lost.
28:37: He wants to remove their hearts and does, and replaces their hearts of stone with hearts of flesh.
28:43: He doesn't ask for us to invite him into our rock -hard, wicked heart.
28:50: Yes. Well, you know, back to, just as an example, the
28:55: Church of Christ, when the apple fell from the tree, it didn't fall very far, brother, because when you examine
29:02: Church of Christ doctrine and theology, it's very Roman Catholic.
29:08: It's the motive, the heart, and the spirit is almost identical. It's sacramental, it's sacerdotal, and it's all man -centered, it's all decisionistic, it's all based upon the, quote, free will of man to exercise his, you know, choice to, you know, be saved on his terms and his time.
29:31: But, you know, in various forms, many Baptist churches have accepted that same line of reasoning, whether they realize it or not.
29:41: And I was a product of it. So I guess that's why it's a touchy thing with me, and I've dedicated my life to, it preached the true gospel of Jesus Christ and called me into repentance, and, you know, that's kind of what, one of the things that's helped our church be a healthy biblical church.
30:02: Amen. And as my friend, Pastor Bill Shishko, who is an Orthodox Presbyterian minister, has said, in reality,
30:13: Arminians are non -liturgical Roman Catholics. It's the truth, man.
30:19: It is absolutely the truth, no doubt about it. Now I want to quickly add to that, to my
30:25: Arminian friends listening, I know that many of you are dear, dear brothers in Christ, and I know pastors who are not
30:33: Reformed, who I love so deeply, who care so deeply about the souls in their congregation, and they are not vehement anti -sovereign grace men.
30:45: They just don't understand all of the specifics that are really behind what we see visibly and physically when someone comes to Christ.
30:59: They just don't understand the invisible end of God's sovereignty. But I don't want to broad -brush all my
31:07: Arminian friends, because there are even some of them, especially when they're pastors that I know, who if there was not a sovereign grace -believing church around, or if the sovereign grace -believing churches had horrible dictatorial pastors,
31:24: I would join where they are pastoring. So I just wanted to make that clear, and I'm sure you agree that we don't want to broad -brush our true brethren amongst those ranks.
31:35: Absolutely, brother, and I keep in mind that when I was saved, I was in those ranks. I was still there, didn't know any better, and God is sovereign enough to save anybody anywhere.
31:47: I remember when I was in seminary, I had to write several papers on Wesley, who
31:53: I guess historically would go down considered to be an Arminian, but when you read his sermons, brother, they were
32:00: God -focused and God -centered, and if you just picked up many of his sermons and read them, you would think you were reading a
32:08: Calvinist. Especially the hymns that he and his brother Charles wrote. Yeah, but brother, they were
32:14: God -centered. They weren't man -centered, and that's the difference. That's the difference with the kind of Arminianism I'm talking about today is that there's some
32:24: God -centered brothers out there, like you're talking about, whom we love, and we know they're going to spend eternity with us in heaven, and they're serious.
32:33: I believe they're trying to be serious about Bible interpretation and genuinely wanting to see people saved, but man, this man -centered wing of Arminianism, this decisionistic end of it, some of that, man, is way, way, way off.
32:50: Oh, of course. I think that's what we're talking about. Well, we have to go to our first break right now, if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Jono Sims, pastor of Shelbyville Mills Baptist Church in Shelbyville, Tennessee, on the centrality of the local church.
33:05: We will also allow other questions that involved pastoral issues, since our guest today is a pastor, but we hope that most of you will keep your questions to the theme as closely as you can to the centrality of the local church.
33:22: Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.
33:28: As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the
33:35: USA. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Jono Sims right after these messages from our sponsors.
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38:34: Banu Gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the current coronavirus pandemic.
38:41: Please contact Dr. Gadi, so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media.
38:51: To find the pharmacy nearest you, call 516 -354 -2000.
38:57: That's 516 -354 -2000. Or order online at leesdrugsrx .com.
39:05: That's leesdrugsrx .com. Don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program.
39:19: If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.
39:27: One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnzen is doing is
39:33: Daniel P. Buttafuoco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.
39:39: Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission?
39:45: To foster belief in the credibility of Scripture as the written Word of God. They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by Mr.
40:00: Buttafuoco demonstrating the reliability of Scripture. To advance the cause of the
40:06: Gospel, they created a beautiful perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611
40:17: King James Bible. This 17th century hand -engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ going back to Adam and Eve.
40:27: This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the
40:34: Tower of Babel and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe.
40:43: Originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before.
40:51: You can have your own copy of this 44 -page genealogy book for a donation of $35 or more.
40:59: Visit historicalbiblesociety .org That's historicalbiblesociety .org
41:06: Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. This is
41:21: Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.
41:27: Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio financially.
41:36: Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our
41:48: Lord Jesus Christ. And of course the end for which we strive is the glory of God.
41:55: If you live near Franklin, Tennessee and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby we hope you will join us some
42:08: Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.
42:18: Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org that's gracechurchatfranklin .org
42:26: This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our
42:32: Sovereign Lord, God, Savior and King Jesus Christ today and always.
42:39: Welcome back, this is Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio if you just tuned us in. Our guest today for the entire two hours is
42:47: Pastor Jono Sims, Senior Pastor at Shelbyville Mills Baptist Church in Shelbyville, Tennessee.
42:54: We are addressing a very important theme in the Body of Christ, the centrality of the local church.
43:01: If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com
43:08: chrisarnson at gmail .com Always give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside of the
43:19: USA and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
43:29: Let's see, we have Austin in Whitehouse, Tennessee. How far or how close is
43:36: Whitehouse to Shelbyville Mills, brother? I'm thinking
43:41: Whitehouse is less than an hour. Okay, well if you're not already in a biblically solid church home,
43:52: Austin we strongly urge you to look up our dear brother at the
43:58: Shelbyville Mills Baptist Church. But he asks
44:04: I have a question regarding communion. Let's see here.
44:10: I have a friend who attends a different church than I. He explained to me his concerns about his church's communion practice.
44:19: He said they had communion only twice in the last five months. He has come to the conviction that communion should be practiced weekly.
44:28: Because of his church's communion practice he is wondering if communion can be practiced at home.
44:35: So can believers, particularly a family practice communion at home?
44:40: And if so, then where is the line drawn between the spheres of church and family?
44:47: Are ministers the only ones to administer the sacraments? What are the scriptural proof texts?
44:53: Thank you, your brother in Christ. Austin from Whitehouse, Tennessee. Well, there's a lot in that.
45:02: And I know there's brothers that'll probably disagree with me on this, but I believe that baptism and the
45:11: Lord's Supper are local church ordinances. I believe that they were given by Christ to the church.
45:22: And as such, I wouldn't believe that the Lord's Supper or baptism could be or should be practiced at home.
45:31: It has to do with the church assembling together and experiencing these things.
45:39: And I believe that John MacArthur is right in this regard that, you know, churches used to understand that the
45:49: Lord's Supper was tied to church discipline. And that's what we mean by excommunication is that if a brother was unrepentant and would not respond to the
46:01: Matthew chapter 18 and 1 Corinthians chapter 5 forms of the discipline of the local church, they were removed from the
46:10: Lord's table. They were excommunicated. They were removed from the Lord's Supper. And you don't have that kind of accountability and authority in the home.
46:22: The father is not acting as an elder of the church there at home.
46:29: And baptism, likewise, is a public testament to a person's faith in the death, burial, and the resurrection.
46:38: And we believe that's the point at which a person becomes a member of the local church.
46:44: Acts talks about those that gladly received his word were baptized, and the same day the
46:52: Lord added to the church so many souls. And so, I believe the ordinances are hardwired to the local church and not to be practiced outside of the authority of that local church and the elders of that church.
47:11: And, of course, I'm assuming you would believe that when you refer to the church, you're not talking about the building, because a congregation, if a house is large enough, can gather at someone's house where they may have a swimming pool to have a baptismal service, and the church building does not have such a font available.
47:35: So I'm assuming that you would think that that would be okay if a congregation gathered, for instance, one summer afternoon in someone's backyard and there was a baptismal service in the pool.
47:47: Yeah, if they're a local church. Right, right, that's what I mean. And all the things that the
47:53: New Testament says a local church is. Yeah, if they're a local church, I mean, churches used to baptize folks in the river.
48:02: And, you know, the whole invention of modern baptistries is a fairly recent thing.
48:10: Yeah, as long as it's a local New Testament church, you know, they would have the authority to do that.
48:18: Now how about the other question about are ministers the only ones to administer the sacraments?
48:25: I've been in biblically sound churches where you may have a deacon baptizing someone, might even just be a man who is a man of high respect, of very credible profession in the congregation, whose child is being baptized.
48:46: And when I say child, I mean a child of an age where you can have confidence their profession is genuine.
48:56: Is that acceptable in your opinion, or must it be the pastor or an elder of the congregation?
49:03: Well, certainly a brother could disagree with me on this, and it's not, you know, it wouldn't make me love him any less.
49:13: Here at Shelbyville Mills, brother, we have restricted that to, you know, the elders of the church that baptize.
49:26: And because of the way we do our membership process and the way we counsel with people and are very, very careful to make sure that in fact they do understand, unlike my testimony earlier, they understand what genuine conversion is, that as best we can, we are human and we're fallible, so we can miss things.
49:51: But as best we can discern through the scriptures and speaking with this person that they have indeed been born again, and that's a process, you know, that we take very seriously here.
50:05: And then we would, you know, expect that one of the pastors would be the ones that baptize them, and then one of the pastors would oversee the
50:17: Lord's Supper service in our church just as pastors preach the word here.
50:23: And so I'm just not comfortable with doling that out to just anyone that wants to baptize or just anyone that wants to go somewhere and administer the
50:35: Lord's Supper, because I think these things operate under the watch care and the authority of the elders to make sure that the, you know, that fidelity to the word of God is being held up.
50:47: And how would you respond to churches that would send at least a small group from the congregation to a nursing home where you have an elderly person who is not able physically to venture beyond the four walls of that nursing home, and they want to obey
51:10: Christ in baptism, they want to be immersed, and there are facilities at that nursing home where that person can be immersed as a believer?
51:20: Yeah, absolutely. We do that. On the Lord's Supper, our deacons will carry the
51:28: Lord's Supper to our shut -ins and nursing home people that are unable to attend.
51:35: And certainly if there was someone that was converted and they are not physically able to make it to the church, we would baptize them there.
51:42: But again, that's under the authority of the church, not just some freelance guy out here that doesn't have accountability of elders for his doctrine and preaching and practice.
51:55: And so, but see, I see those things as operating under the authority of the local church.
52:01: And so we actually do, we actually practice those things. I'm so glad to hear that, because I disagree with, it seems,
52:12: I may be wrong on this, but it seems that the majority of Reformed Baptists with whom
52:17: I had had conversations about this do not bring the Lord's Supper to nursing homes.
52:24: Now I can understand perhaps being opposed to it if it's just one person doing it, but if you're having a group or even a small one from a local congregation bringing the
52:36: Lord's Supper to a shut -in, a homebound person or a nursing home,
52:41: I just don't see the biblical conflict with it at all. In fact,
52:46: I wonder why they think it's okay to deprive someone who is a shut -in, a homebound or a nursing home resident from a very important ordinance of the church.
53:00: One thing the Lord has blessed us with, brother, and we're so thankful, about a year ago we hired my, as a matter of fact, my son -in -law is over our media web presence, and he does a great job.
53:14: His name is Joshua. And by the way, brother, he's even gotten us, we even do a podcast now.
53:19: If you search for the Faithful Expositor on Apple Podcast or really any podcast platform, you'll find it.
53:28: But we've started, whenever we have the Lord's Supper, typically the way we do it, if this is available to them, if it's not, we do it like what you're talking about, but we take the communion cup with the wafer.
53:43: It's kind of a self -contained product that we take to them.
53:48: And we try to set them up with their phone or a tablet or some means, you know, where they can listen to the service and watch it as we're actually having communion here.
54:02: And then at the appropriate time, when we take the bread and drink the cup, they join in with us live at that point, if they're able to.
54:11: In fact, I want to pick up right where you left off there, because we have to go to our midway break. And I'll pick right where you left off.
54:17: Sorry, folks, please be patient with us, because this is a longer break that we have in the middle of the show. Please be patient with us, but use this time wisely by responding to our advertisers and at least by thanking them for sponsoring this program.
54:33: And also send in questions to Pastor Jono Sims at chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.
54:39: Don't go away. We're going to be right back right after these messages. With a name to glorify
55:15: God and reach the nations with the gospel. It is a blessing to see how God has used
55:20: Anchored in Truth in so many different contexts globally, as well as locally.
55:27: To find out more about this vital work worldwide, visit anchoredintruth .org.
55:44: I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.
55:49: I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,
55:56: Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.
56:03: It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word and to enthusiastically proclaim
56:20: Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.
56:27: I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.
56:36: For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.
56:43: That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.
56:52: That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.
57:12: Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the
57:21: Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions, while always defending the key doctrines of the
57:33: Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the
57:39: Internet where folk won't be led astray. I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide.
57:45: This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.
57:51: And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.
57:58: I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting
58:03: Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?
58:12: I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris, if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com,
58:19: where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing sixth grade.
58:35: Do you know what they all have in common? They all require training, assessments, and certifications. But do you know what requires no training at all?
58:44: Becoming a parent. My name is A .M. Brewster. I'm the president of Truth, Love, Parent, and host of its award -winning podcast.
58:52: I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s, and what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.
59:02: That's why Truth, Love, Parent exists. We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents
59:08: God called and created them to be. We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.
59:20: Please visit us at truthloveparent .com. We are excited to announce another new member of the
59:38: Ironsharpensironradio advertising family, Bhanu Gadi, owner of three
59:43: New York pharmacies, Lee's Drugs of Floral Park, Long Beach Chemists, and Prescription Center of Long Island in Hempstead.
59:52: Bhanu Gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the current coronavirus pandemic.
59:59: Please contact Dr. Gadi so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media.
01:00:09: To find the pharmacy nearest you, call 516 -354 -2000.
01:00:15: That's 516 -354 -2000. Or order online at leesdrugsrx .com.
01:00:23: That's l -e -e -s -drugs -r -x .com. Don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program.
01:00:39: If you love Ironsharpensironradio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.
01:00:47: One such faithful advertiser, who really believes in what Chris Arnton is doing, is
01:00:53: Daniel P. Buttafuoco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.
01:00:59: Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission?
01:01:05: To foster belief in the credibility of Scripture as the written Word of God. They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts, along with a fascinating presentation by Mr.
01:01:20: Buttafuoco demonstrating the reliability of Scripture. To advance the cause of the
01:01:26: Gospel, they created a beautiful, perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611
01:01:37: King James Bible. This 17th century hand -engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ going back to Adam and Eve.
01:01:47: This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the
01:01:53: Tower of Babel and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe.
01:02:02: Originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before.
01:02:11: You can have your own copy of this 44 -page genealogy book for a donation of $35 or more.
01:02:19: Visit historicalbiblesociety .org That's historicalbiblesociety .org
01:02:26: Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005.
01:02:46: The publishers of the New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the
01:02:55: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the
01:03:00: NASB. I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President and Professor of Systematic and Homiletical Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylors, South Carolina.
01:03:11: And the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck White of the
01:03:17: First Trinity Lutheran Church in Tonawanda, New York. And the NASB is my Bible of choice.
01:03:23: I'm Pastor Anthony Methenia of Christ Church in Radford, Virginia. And the NASB is my
01:03:28: Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jesse Miller of Damascus Road Christian Church in Gardnerville, Nevada.
01:03:35: And the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmerville, Long Island, New York.
01:03:44: And the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rodney Brown of Metro Bible Church in South Lake, Texas.
01:03:53: And the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jim Harrison of Red Mills Baptist Church in Mayapac Falls, New York.
01:04:00: And the NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep
01:04:06: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?
01:04:12: Consider restocking your pews with the NASB. And tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:04:21: Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.
01:04:33: Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops and local hangouts,
01:04:45: Long Island Youth for Christ, staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus.
01:04:54: Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.
01:05:02: Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959. We have a world class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.
01:05:16: Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray or all of the above.
01:05:23: For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.
01:05:30: That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit l -i -y -f -c .org.
01:05:39: That's l -i -y -f -c .org. Lindbrook Baptist Church on 225
01:05:52: Earl Avenue in Lindbrook, Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century. Our church is far more than a
01:05:58: Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.
01:06:04: It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing.
01:06:12: We're a diverse family of all ages. Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ. In fellowship, play and together.
01:06:18: Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Lindbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.
01:06:25: Call Lindbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402.
01:06:32: Or visit LindbrookBaptist .org. That's LindbrookBaptist .org. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.
01:06:44: If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.
01:06:55: And besides that, they feel so good. I'm so delighted I discovered Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding.
01:07:02: No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot. Jeffrey Rice of Post Tenebrous Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan.
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01:07:33: French tannery used to rebind a Reformation study Bible I used as a gift. The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.
01:07:44: Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather, making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.
01:07:54: For more details on Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding, go to ptlbiblerebinding .com.
01:08:02: That's ptlbiblerebinding .com. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,
01:08:19: Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted.
01:08:27: He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.
01:08:33: You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the
01:08:39: Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.
01:08:52: Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered,
01:08:57: Christ -exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.
01:09:05: That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.
01:09:14: Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And we are honored here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio to have solid -ground -books .com
01:09:26: as a major, a vital sponsor and advertiser. And I urge you folks, if you care about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, please visit solid -ground -books .com
01:09:38: frequently and purchase generously, always mentioning that you heard about them from Chris Arnsen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:09:46: If a day were to come when solid -ground -books .com has to withdraw their advertising from this program, we would very likely have to go off the air because of the devastation financially that we would incur subsequently to that, barring a financial miracle from God.
01:10:08: They are truly a vital and central sponsor of this program. But I don't want you to think that by purchasing books from solid -ground -books .com
01:10:18: you're just going to be doing them a favor and you're not going to be just doing us at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio a favor by keeping one of our important advertisers happy.
01:10:29: You're going to be doing yourself and anyone for whom you are purchasing gifts from solid -ground -books .com
01:10:35: an enormous favor of incalculable value because they bring back into print and publish nothing but the finest in Christian literature dating back to the
01:10:45: Protestant Reformation and extending forward to our present day with such notable authors as Dr.
01:10:52: James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries. Go to solid -ground -books .com solid -ground -books .com
01:10:59: and purchase gifts for your loved ones today and also replenish your own library and purchase for self -edification.
01:11:11: And I'm going to solid -ground -books .com to send out gifts to Pastor John O.
01:11:20: Sims and the pastors that were on the roster at the True Church Conference.
01:11:25: I was so extraordinarily blessed at that conference and treated with such overwhelming hospitality and kindness and generosity that I am in my small way going to say thanks to the pastors who were on that speaking roster by sending them several books from solid -ground -books .com
01:11:47: and I hope that you will do the same for those you love. Before we return to Pastor John O.
01:11:54: Sims and our discussion on the centrality of the local church I just want to make a couple of more announcements. Folks, if you love this show and you don't want it to disappear
01:12:03: I'm urging you, please go to ironsharpensironradio .com ironsharpensironradio .com
01:12:10: click support then click, click to donate now. You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion and if you prefer snail mail mailing a check the old -fashioned way through the postal service well, you can mail your checks made payable to Ironsharpensironradio .com
01:12:30: to the physical address that will also appear on your screen when you click support at ironsharpensironradio .com
01:12:36: Now I try to remember to remind my listeners every single day that I do not want anyone cutting in to the giving that you are accustomed to to your own local church where you are a member in order to give to Ironsharpensironradio.
01:12:54: In other words, I don't want people listening to this program giving less to their own local church because they want to give
01:13:01: Ironsharpensironradio a gift, financially. Please do not do that. This program was founded on several pillars and one of those very vital pillars was to be a friend an extension, a helping hand and a platform to the local pastor and the local church.
01:13:22: In fact, that's one of the reasons I am delighted that our theme today with Pastor John O'Simm is the centrality of the local church.
01:13:29: That is something that I hold with utmost importance and I don't want to ever bring any harm including financially to solid local pastors and their churches.
01:13:41: So please don't punish your own church financially by blessing us financially. Also, if you are really struggling to survive
01:13:48: I don't want to take food off of your dinner table either so please only give to Ironsharpensironradio if you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to provide for your church and your family.
01:14:02: And if you are so blessed financially and you love this show, I am urging you to please help us.
01:14:08: If you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to provide for church and family we really need your help.
01:14:14: Please go to ironsharpensironradio .com click support, then click to donate now. Last but not least, if you are not a member of a local biblically sound,
01:14:24: Christ honoring theologically solid Christian church no matter where you live on the planet
01:14:31: Earth, I may be able to help you find a church that fits that description near you. I have helped many people all over the world in our audience find churches sometimes within just a few minutes drive from where they live.
01:14:44: They didn't even know these churches existed or they've been passing these churches every day and didn't know that they were theologically sound.
01:14:51: So I may be able to help you and I know right away if you live in Shelbyville, Tennessee there's an excellent church there where Pastor Jono Sims is pastoring but I may be able to help you in all parts of the world no matter where you are.
01:15:07: So send me an email if you are in that dilemma of not having a biblical church where you are a member send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com
01:15:17: chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send a question to Pastor Jono Sims on the centrality of the local church.
01:15:29: That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least city and state of residence and country of residence.
01:15:36: Pastor Jono before the break we were talking about shut -ins and folks in nursing homes and so on and through the wonderful gift of technology and the internet in our day and age we can have worship services viewed and listened to by people who are physically unable to get to a local church and that is an extraordinary blessing and a gift from God however
01:16:08: I'm very sure you agree with me since you believe so strongly in the centrality of the local church that you would be very opposed in fact
01:16:18: I think you would probably put it in the category of sin for people who are physically capable of being an active participant in a local church but choose to stay home and just watch worship services on TV which in reality if a physically able person is just sitting at home watching something they're really not involved in a worship service.
01:16:44: Am I going too far here? Oh no man you're right. Hebrews 13 25 says don't forsake the assembling of yourselves together as you said
01:16:55: Summer in the habit of doing and you know I think this is completely consistent with what we were talking about a moment ago there's this independent freelance spirit in America right now concerning church that I don't have to be a part of the body
01:17:11: I can just worship my own way my own style I've heard people say we go to the
01:17:18: NASCAR races and before we go in we have church by our
01:17:23: RV or we were down at the lake this weekend and boy we really had church that's not church where are the elders?
01:17:31: Where's the preaching of the word? Where's the giving of offerings? Where's church discipline?
01:17:37: That's not a church and I'm not trying to bear down too hard on this but I think people play loose and fast with the ordinances too in this freelance spirit of doing it my way they'll go one step further and say we don't need the church, the church is irrelevant we can baptize you we can give you the
01:17:56: Lord's Supper and I just think it's completely wrong headed brother, everything we know, almost everything that we know about baptism and the
01:18:06: Lord's Supper we know because of instructions Jesus and Paul gave to the church gave to the local church and so we wouldn't even know about these things if it wasn't letters that were written to churches to instruct them how to do these things and so I completely agree with you brother if someone's homebound and they're sick obviously there's mercy and grace from God and thank
01:18:31: God we have the gift of you know broadcasting our services through all of these means which we do but no if you're able, you are commanded by God not to forsake the assembling of the local church and that's a very serious sin that's described there in Hebrews chapter 13
01:18:53: Now this idea that many in Evangelicalism that profess to be
01:19:00: Christians I suspect a great percentage of them may not truly be regenerate because if you love
01:19:08: Christ you're going to love his church in fact it's interesting as you know very well when
01:19:18: Saul of Tarsus was stopped dead in his tracks on the road to Damascus he was gathering up men and women and murdering them for their allegiance to Christ Jesus said to him from heaven he didn't say why are you persecuting my people he said why are you persecuting me so if you love
01:19:47: Jesus Christ you really, if you despise his people and you don't want to gather with his people it's a very strong sign you are not regenerate but this idea that the church doesn't matter very often the excuse is well going to church or being a member of a church doesn't save you now that's true but to extend that fact to a practice of not going to services and being a member of a church under the authority of local elders because being a member of a church doesn't save you this is really a sinful and damning twisting of the scriptures isn't it it really is
01:20:34: I had a brother recently here locally that tried to do that with me I preached a message on the centrality of the church and I just stated about how important it was to be a member of the church and he tried to make me he tried to make me out to be saying that you know joining the church saves you well obviously
01:20:56: I don't believe that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone in the discussion however then we're taught that everyone that is saved you know will be baptized and they'll join
01:21:12: Christ's church and they'll serve him faithfully just because something's not salvific doesn't mean that it's unimportant you know and being a member of the local church and faithfully serving
01:21:23: Jesus Christ through that church is a very very important part of our following Jesus Christ and our sanctification and our maturity you know.
01:21:34: Yeah just like in the epistle of James James is making it clear that if you have a profession of faith but do not demonstrate benevolence and compassion and care to those in need you are lost your faith is a dead faith not that giving to the poor and needy is saving you or a requirement for regeneration but at the same time if you are lacking that as an evidence if you are a tree that is not bearing that fruit that is a very serious and frightening sign that you are a bad tree that you are a spiritually dead person am
01:22:23: I right? I just don't understand why people don't get that Chris what you said
01:22:28: I believe with all my heart but I just for the life of me don't understand why people don't understand that it's not that difficult you know we go back to Romans chapter 8 and it's very clear that all whom
01:22:41: God foreknew he called all whom God called he justified all whom
01:22:47: God justified you could imply sanctified because it says they are conformed to the image of Christ and then all who are sanctified are glorified there's no break in that chain so obviously there's some things in the realm of sanctification that are not in the realm of our justification but justification leads to sanctification and sanctification always leads to glorification and if you're not experiencing sanctification man you need to take a good hard look at what you're calling justification because every time someone is justified they are sanctified and every person that's sanctified is glorified and this is why
01:23:30: Paul would say he who began a good work in you will perform it under the day of Christ Jesus that's justification sanctification and glorification and brother in this middle part here we call sanctification which encompasses our entire saved life man the local church is a huge huge part of what
01:23:57: God uses to sanctify us and grow us in the grace of Jesus Christ Amen Amen hallelujah we have a question from an anonymous listener who says that he or she is remaining anonymous as to not offend his catholic family or her catholic family members but the question is
01:24:24: I have heard Chris Arnzen on this program say that he has a theory that many people within evangelicalism have this horrible and sinful and heretical idea that they do not need the church because they are overreacting to the heresy of Roman Catholicism that teaches that the church is what doles out salvation to its members would you agree with this and yes that I have said that but I'd also like to add obviously there are multitudes of Catholics that have no real connection to their local parish and they think that they are just fine and dandy and in fact they have a pope right now who has publicly declared that an atheist can go to heaven just because he has gotten his child baptized and things like that but I think that that could be a reality especially when you are talking about somebody who is originally raised in a more hardcore dogmatic
01:25:32: Roman Catholic background that is actually faithful to the heresies of the
01:25:38: Council of Trent rather than a modern Catholic church but if you could give your own opinion on that brother.
01:25:45: Well certainly there are people out there that could have that view coming from the
01:25:52: Catholic background and the same thing back to what we talked about earlier could be a person coming out of a
01:26:01: Church of Christ background that had been burned by baptism or regeneration could come to the wrong conclusion then that baptism is not important or a person equally coming out of the
01:26:11: Church of Christ church that has been taught that you have to take communion to be saved could have a negative view on communion but here is the deal just because there is a church out there that perverts the doctrine of church membership and makes it salvific or just because there is someone that perverts the doctrine of baptism and makes it salvific or the
01:26:31: Lord's Supper and makes it salvific does not take away from the importance in which
01:26:37: Christ gave it in his word. Our job is not to overreact in an unhealthy way to correct a problem.
01:26:44: Our job is to read the New Testament, find out what it actually says about church membership baptism and the
01:26:50: Lord's Supper and do that and so this whole reactionary of where people have been burned and they overcompensate it doesn't matter which ditch you are in on the left side of the road or the right side if you are in a ditch, you are in a ditch and so our job is to try to find out biblically what does the
01:27:09: Bible teach about these things and practice them in the way Christ gave them to the church.
01:27:15: We have a listener that actually is hitting the nail on the head related to things that you just said.
01:27:22: We have Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania who says must we not be always careful not to be cold and unsympathetic to those who were really harmed mentally, spiritually, emotionally and even physically in cults and horrible churches, not that this would ever be a reason to allow them to never belong to a solid church in their future without being chastised over this but at the same time, don't you think that patience and love needs to be poured upon individuals like this because many of us have never experienced something like that before.
01:28:11: Yeah, I agree with that very much and I'm sure you do Jono and this would, when we think about people who have been in cults and so on unfortunately people can have horrific experiences even in theologically sound churches that are functionally behaving like dictatorships and our own
01:28:33: Reformed Baptist churches are not foreign to this. I'm not saying that most of them are conducting church that way but it is true that people have been really psychologically and emotionally harmed and you might even have somebody in a theologically and doctrinally sound church has been molested by a pastor physically or whatever so we have to be very careful not to be bulldozers in this area, right?
01:29:00: Oh, I 1000 % agree, could not agree more it's a great comment that the brother makes and I'll tell you where we're at brother, and I think this is consistent with our view of the sovereignty of God and the regenerating power of the
01:29:15: Holy Spirit and the power of the Spirit of God to place the correct biblical desires on the heart of the redeemed.
01:29:24: Brother, we do not, we as a matter of fact, we're on the other end of the spectrum, we do not try to persuade people or twist arms of people to join our church brother, we are who we are we preach what we preach, we have a membership process, we teach our membership information class once a month the second
01:29:47: Sunday of every month and we just make a general announcement that if you would like to go through it, you can but brother, we've had so many people come to our church just like this brother that's talking about, they've been in an unhealthy church or they have been abused or they've had a dictatorial type, you know, pastor or leadership you know, group, and they've just been burned and the thing you know, sin came out and it was a wicked situation,
01:30:16: I was just on a conversation with a brother of this earlier today and brother, we just say to him right up front look, come, heal send unto the word, take as much time as you need we're not going to push you or force you or coerce you to join here, and you know brother, the kind of the modus operandi now for us has been people usually visit with us for several months before they end up joining with us, and we're okay with that, we want them to know enough about us and have enough information about us and feel comfortable with us that they believe that they're going to be safe here and that this is a biblical church and that it's going to be a good place for their family to be according to the word of God so yeah,
01:31:08: I completely understand that and that's completely legitimate yes, I am even aware of Baptist churches who have told people that if they leave that specific congregation, that independent congregation that they are doomed to hell you know that's just dead wrong, man that's just, that's dead wrong it's, it's, it's that's false teaching, that's not the word of God right, and of course if somebody is just leaving a church because they don't want to be underdisciplined or they don't like the lack of professionalism and the way people are singing in the choir or whatever ridiculous reason they have and they are not attaching themselves to another true congregation, then of course we could be ready to plead with them that if they are not demonstrating a love for the body of Christ and an urgency to be attached to it by being under the authority of local elders, then we do have reason for concern over their salvation absolutely,
01:32:22: I agree, we've had people you know, through the years I mean, if you pastor a church
01:32:29: I've been pastoring now for 32 years, and I've been here 22 of those you see a lot of people come and go, it's just the way it is, but man
01:32:40: I don't I don't think for a minute that, you know, there's a lot of people that came here and left us that I believe are redeemed,
01:32:49: I believe they love the Lord, there's just a lot of different circumstances that led them to leave, but my knee -jerk reaction when a person leaves our church is not,
01:33:00: I don't default to, oh well they're not saved, you know, a lot of them are saved, and they could be in a season of disobedience or there could be a number of factors going on, but I'm like you, if a person willfully forsakes the church as a matter of fact, if you want to get right down to it, if you read that text in Hebrews chapter 13 and he talks about let me turn there in my
01:33:24: Bible just to read it exactly While you're doing that I'll just announce our email address again, it's chrisarnson at gmail .com
01:33:30: chrisarnson at gmail .com Go ahead. Well, he talks about, you know,
01:33:37: I said 13, but it's Hebrews chapter 10, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together as the manner of some is, but exhorting one another in so much more as you see the day approaching.
01:33:48: The next word in Hebrews 10, 26 is conjunction, for now he's about to tell us what this sin is.
01:33:56: He's identified the sin, it's forsaking the assembly. And now he's defining what that sin is.
01:34:03: He says, if for, if we sin willfully and he goes on to say you trot underfoot the son of God, you count the blood of the covenant unholy, and you insult the
01:34:14: Holy Spirit of grace. I believe that's what a person does when they forsake the assembly. This is a serious sin.
01:34:22: It's a high -handed sin in the face of God. And brother, you know, we reformed brothers we talk about you know, limited atonement.
01:34:33: We talk about particular atonement. Well, how much more particular, brother Chris, could you get than Ephesians 5 where it says,
01:34:42: Christ loved the church and gave himself for her. Amen.
01:34:49: And by the way, that was written to a local church. This whole nonsense of the universal church.
01:34:56: I understand there's a universal church, but Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1st
01:35:05: Timothy, 2nd Timothy, Titus were all written to or about local churches.
01:35:13: The seven churches in Asia Minor in Revelation 2 and 3, all local churches meeting in a city with elders, with deacons, with a congregation that knew each other, where they met regularly on Sunday and worshipped the
01:35:30: Lord and observed the ordinances of the church. That's what we're talking about. And when he says, when you forsake that, you're trotting
01:35:39: Jesus under your feet. You're counting the blood unholy because Christ shed his blood for the church, and you're insulting the
01:35:46: Holy Spirit that draws and converts a man. And so the church is not some, like you gave in your introduction, the church is not, as evangelicalism sees it, some elective, unimportant thing.
01:36:04: Rather, the church is the apple of God's eye. Jesus shed his blood for the church.
01:36:12: He's coming again for the church. And so this is a very, very, very serious matter, and it's offensive to me of the nonchalant, careless, whimsical view of so many people today about the church.
01:36:30: Or they have this idea of a universal church, where you know, and we understand there's a sense of the saved down through the ages, but who's the pastor of the universal church, and who are the elders of the universal church?
01:36:45: And the universal church is not going to discipline you if you're in sin. The universal church is not going to come visit you in the hospital if you're sick.
01:36:52: You don't have to give of your finances to the universal church, and the universal church doesn't go on mission trips and fulfill the
01:36:59: Great Commission. Amen. And one of the things I know you wanted to highlight in this discussion that you really can't remove from a serious discussion of the centrality of the local church is church discipline.
01:37:17: And to repeat, I know that those who listen to my program regularly, they know that I brought this up a lot, but there's a reason
01:37:25: I bring it up a lot. I, myself, over a decade ago, was under church discipline because I lapsed back into the damnable practice of drunkenness during a season in my life, during my wife's illness and her subsequent going home to heaven.
01:37:48: I lapsed back into a sin that I was guilty of habitually participating in before I was saved and was sober as a
01:38:00: Christian for 18 years. And sadly, and when I say lapsed back in,
01:38:06: I'm not trying to candy coat my willful rebellion against God.
01:38:11: So I ask for your forgiveness for perhaps using a bad term, lapsing back in, but I jumped into with the full knowledge of my rebellion into this wicked behavior.
01:38:27: And if it were not for loving and compassionate and biblically faithful elders who cared more, not only about God than men, but cared more about me than my comfort zone or me being angry with them or whatever, they cared more about my soul and even my physical life than the superficial areas of life that they enacted church discipline on me, and I believe, and I'm not exaggerating,
01:39:03: I think that's the primary reason, other than God's sovereign hand itself, that's the real reason
01:39:12: I'm sitting here alive with air in my lungs and a beating heart, because if I had not been put under church discipline,
01:39:19: I really think that I'd be dead. And if I had died in that state,
01:39:24: I'm not saying that I would have gone to hell for eternity, because I believe that I was regenerate before this, but those around me who are not omniscient, they would have no reason to have confidence that I was certainly saved, and they would be mourning in a different way.
01:39:42: They would be mourning over a person that they believe may very well have been a reprobate. But if you could just speak a bit on this greatly despised teaching and practice, which is such a core and important thing for a loving and compassionate church to be participated in.
01:40:01: This is not an act of hate when conducted biblically. Am I right? 100%.
01:40:07: And this is part of the frustration for me, is that I'm having oftentimes, I mean this humbly, but I'm having to speak to people and explain things to them that they've never seen.
01:40:18: I'm having to speak to people and explain to them things they've never experienced. If you've never been in a healthy, biblical local church, it's hard for me to...
01:40:28: I can explain it to you, but if you've never seen it, it's extremely difficult for me to help you understand.
01:40:34: Most people have a wrong mindset that church discipline... Oh, y 'all are kicking people out of church.
01:40:40: I've heard that my whole life. And they see it as something mean and austere and judgmental and hateful.
01:40:46: It's the exact opposite. It is the exact opposite. It's exactly the story you just shared.
01:40:55: It is the most loving and compassionate and graceful thing we could do. We've had a lot of rains here in Middle Tennessee, and right down from our churches, the
01:41:06: Duck River. And on my way home tonight, if I saw a man fall into the Duck River, and he's floating down, and I have a life preserver in my truck, and I just say, well,
01:41:17: I don't want to offend him. I don't want to judge him. I'm not going to throw him the lifeline. That'd be crazy, and yet that's what we think in our churches.
01:41:26: Someone's in sin, and we have this false mindset. Well, we don't need to judge.
01:41:32: We need to be loving, so we're just not going to say anything. That's not love. Yeah, this is a rescue mission when you're putting people on the discipline.
01:41:42: One thousand percent, it's a rescue mission. And I think
01:41:47: I told you the first interview we did, the one that unfortunately didn't get recorded, that if you
01:41:52: Google Shelbyville Mills Baptist Church, unchosen by me, I mean, I don't have any control over this, the first thing that pops up is a pastor that we had to discipline from our congregation for embezzling funds from our church.
01:42:10: Wow. And this brother had been with me for 19 years, and brother, when we disciplined him, everybody, well, not everybody, but a lot of people in the community would say, and man,
01:42:22: I was hateful, he's not loving, he's judging, he's just way off on this.
01:42:33: Well, this brother repented, and by the way, while he was in prison, we paid his mortgage, his wife, they had four kids, we paid their mortgage, we paid their light bill, we paid their groceries, we paid their car payment, we paid off their credit cards, we completely financially undergirded her.
01:42:54: And when he got out of jail, the first person he came to see was me, and weeping, he said, brother,
01:42:59: I want to get right with my church. Amen. And Channel 2 in Nashville, Channel 5,
01:43:06: MSNBC ran it, but Channel, I think it was Channel 5, came back and recorded the reconciliation service, and they did a good job, and put it on TV in the 6 o 'clock news, and gave the other side, and brother,
01:43:20: I'm telling you, now people come up and say, man, y 'all did that right. I didn't understand, but I see it now.
01:43:28: And so, I just, brother, I just challenge anybody listening, you know, there's so many things
01:43:35: I want to say, but the most loving and compassionate thing that our church has ever done is the loving, redemptive, restorative practice of biblical church discipline.
01:43:47: And by the way, Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, this is why the words in Matthew chapter 18 are in red.
01:43:56: It's Jesus Christ, who suffered, bled, died on the cross, who told us to practice church discipline.
01:44:02: And of course we do not want to make light of or ignore the fact that there are churches that conduct discipline in an unbiblical manner, in a tyrannical manner, and not only is the discipline itself unbiblical, but the reasons for the discipline are unbiblical, so we don't want to ignore that.
01:44:23: That exists, of course. And of course, listeners who may be bristling at what we are saying, just imagine parents allowing their children to do anything they wanted to do without any discipline, to be involved in life -threatening activity.
01:44:42: You don't have to imagine it. Just look at America. Look at the streets of our cities, and look at this anti -police mindset that we have in our country right now.
01:44:54: It's antinomianism, brother. It's just lawlessness abounding. And our country is in the shape it's in because there's a lack of discipline in the church, the home, the family, the civil government, right on down the line.
01:45:06: We have to go to our final break. It's going to be a lot more brief than the other ones. If you have a question, send it in right now, because we're rapidly running out of time.
01:45:14: Chris Ornson at gmail .com. Chris Ornson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.
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01:49:38: Welcome back. Pastor Jono, can you give us some of the primary reasons in the ten minutes that we have left as to why the centrality of the local church is such an extremely important and vital issue?
01:49:58: Brother, there are things that happen at the church that just don't happen anyplace else.
01:50:06: It is a unique and very, very rare gift that God has given to this church where there are
01:50:19: God -called, God -equipped, gifted brothers who rightly divide.
01:50:27: Now we're talking about a healthy church that rightly divide the word of truth.
01:50:34: There's accountability, protection and safety for your soul watching, as the
01:50:42: Bible says, as those who must give an account. The Holy Spirit, I believe the chief agent of sanctification in the life of a believer that the
01:50:54: Holy Spirit uses is the preaching and the teaching that comes through that local church.
01:51:02: And then there is what we've just discussed. There's the necessary discipline that the
01:51:08: Lord uses to keep a straying sheep from, you know, wandering off and dying.
01:51:17: And then, brother, I just came out, you just came through the True Church Conference, and we just had our
01:51:22: World Impact Conference here this past week. The Great Commission was given to the local church and participating with my church in going into all the world.
01:51:32: We had 12 missionaries here last week from all over the world. And to be in part, and these brothers have the same convictions that we do about the local church and about the word of God.
01:51:43: And to partner with them and seeing other churches planted and other pastors being called to pastor these congregations, the spreading of the gospel through the nations,
01:51:55: God's ordained that that come through the local church. That's the only way that it happened.
01:52:02: And so, I mean, I could run the gamut, brother, but just in a nutshell, those are things that don't happen any place else than the local church.
01:52:13: There is definitely a spirit of arrogance and narcissism in the mind and heart of somebody, even if they don't recognize it themselves, and those people rarely do.
01:52:28: But to have an attitude where you do not need the church, where you think you're smart enough, you don't need a pastor, a preacher, a teacher to guide you through the scriptures, you don't think that these people are even worthy of your benevolence and love and active assistance in life, there's a real arrogance there, isn't there?
01:53:00: There is, brother. I need the church. I've been following Jesus for, like I said, 33 -plus years, and I need the church.
01:53:09: I started my day out today stopping by the home of one of the members of our church that just had a triple bypass, and he's having some kidney issues, and brother, this brother loves the
01:53:19: Lord, and he sat there this morning and just wept about how his church has ministered to him, that people have prayed for him, and he was humble and broken and thankful and grateful.
01:53:31: What he was saying is, I need my church. And this church has rallied behind him and his family and prayed for him and carried meals and ministered to them and taken care of things around the house that needs to be fixed and sent cards and letters and people have gone by and they prayed.
01:53:50: Brother, it's just wonderful to be a part of a biblically healthy church, and for those people that you've just described,
01:53:58: I feel sorry for them, brother. I really feel sorry for them because they don't know what they're missing, and I also feel sorry for the person listening who's only ever experienced a weak, anemic, cold, dead church.
01:54:14: My heart breaks for them because, like I said earlier, you almost have to experience a healthy church to understand what
01:54:22: I'm talking about. It's a wonderful, wonderful thing to be a part of a biblically healthy church.
01:54:29: And what I have told folks who will point to either their own pastor that was involved in something that harmed them mentally, spiritually, emotionally, or even physically, or they will point to notorious charlatans that we have seen in the media over most of us in our entire lives of watching television and listening to the radio, we've heard about these false teachers and so on, they will use that as an excuse of keeping clear of the church.
01:55:10: But, what I have said to people like that is, so you are rejecting Jesus because of Judas?
01:55:17: You are denying and disobeying clear commands of Christ and His God -breathed
01:55:26: Word because of what some people who profess to be Christians have done sinfully?
01:55:33: I mean, even in the recorded words of the Bible we have false Christians that existed, wolves in sheep's clothing.
01:55:42: So, the Bible doesn't keep that a secret as if that doesn't exist. We're not supposed to be running away from a true church just because false churches exist, or false
01:55:55: Christians. Absolutely, brother. I read just today about a medical doctor on the news that's being prosecuted for taking advantage of people in the
01:56:09: COVID era. Just some fraud and some malpractice that she's been involved in.
01:56:16: But the next time I get sick, I'm going to the doctor. I don't think that that means that every doctor out there is like her.
01:56:27: Brother, that's just a faulty excuse. I wish people would just be more honest.
01:56:33: I could respect them more if they would just say, you know what? I won't go to the lake on Sunday.
01:56:39: I'm not going to church. At least I could respect them for being honest. But this is just not an honest excuse.
01:56:47: People know better than that. Just because there's bad pastors and bad churches out there, that doesn't mean that there's not true churches that genuinely love people and care for their souls and shepherd them as Jesus would.
01:57:02: In fact, there are children who have been legally removed from their homes because their parents or a parent was violent or sexually abusive to that child.
01:57:17: Does that mean that we're not supposed to put that child up for adoption somewhere? Because a parent did something horrible?
01:57:24: That doesn't mean all parents are horrible. Yeah. Well, I want you in 90 seconds to really summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today, brother.
01:57:36: What I would say is brother, that if you study your Bible, you will not be able to deny that what is addressed in the
01:57:48: New Testament is a local church. Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Thessalonica, Philadelphia, the churches in Asia Minor, Laodicea even,
01:58:02: Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, these were all local churches in a city with a pastor and deacons.
01:58:13: The people knew each other. They held each other accountable. The Word of God was taught.
01:58:18: The ordinances were observed. The Great Commission was carried out. And this is
01:58:24: God's plan. This is His plan. This is His sovereign plan to disseminate the gospel throughout the nations.
01:58:34: And if you think you're going to get another plan, you sort of think you're smarter than God.
01:58:40: Because this is the plan that God has ordained to reach the nations with the gospel of Jesus Christ.
01:58:46: And just because there's some bad apples out there called churches does not thwart
01:58:52: God's sovereign plan of the local church. Amen.
01:58:58: And I want to remind our listeners that if you want more information about Pastor John O. Sims and Shelbyville Mills Baptist Church in Shelbyville, Tennessee, go to smbconline .com
01:59:14: smbconline .com smbconline .com smbconline .com And I don't want to forget about Anchored in Truth either, a sponsor of this program, anchoredintruth .org
01:59:24: anchoredintruth .org Pastor John O. Sims, it has been such a delight to have you on the program.
01:59:30: I would hope that you enjoyed it enough that you will want to be a regular returning guest, because I know that we just scratched the surface of things that we could discuss and I look forward to your frequent return to Iron Triple Zion Radio.
01:59:44: Amen, my brother. I want everybody who listened today to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater