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March 3, 2022
JONO SIMS, Senior Pastor at Shelbyville Mills Baptist Church in Shelbyville, TN, who will address:
“The CENTRALITY of the LOCAL CHURCH”
Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown, Carlisle, Pennsylvania. It's iron sharpens iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us. Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. And now here's your host Chris Arnzen.
Good.
Afternoon.
Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron Sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Thursday on this third day of March 2022 before I introduce my guests today and the topic we are going to be addressing.
I just wanted to Extend another prayer request from you who are listening for the health safety and well-being of my friend my cola Lily off ski. Who is professor of biblical theology and hermeneutics at Grace Bible Seminary in Kiev Ukraine?
And he's also a member of the leadership team at Grace Bible Church in Kiev. We had him on the program Tuesday March 1st live from Ukraine and He is still safe and sound. But we ask of you to continue to pray that he remains that way in addition to the faculty and students At Grace Bible Seminary and the congregation of Grace Bible Church in Kiev.
And of course, we ask of you to continue to pray for the entire nation of Ukraine during this frightening time in their History as the Russians are still there wreaking havoc and Involving themselves in terrorist activity but we we know that we can count on our Christian listeners in our audience to to pray for Ukraine and those whom I specifically mentioned today, I am so thrilled to have back on the program a Brother who I just saw and heard preach in person recently when I was at the true church conference in Muscle Shoals, Alabama for the first time in my life.
His name is Jono Sims aka Jonathan Sims and he is senior pastor at Shelbyville Mills Baptist Church in Shelbyville, Tennessee and today we are going to be addressing an extremely important theme a Theme that unfortunately and tragically There are many in the in the evangelical church at large when they hear a theme like this.
They may yawn with disinterest and apathy and indifference. But this is a really vital theme we are going to be addressing and perhaps it is so vital because of what I just said that there are many people who profess to be Bible-believing Christians that view our topic on one of the lower rungs of The latter of importance if not leaving it off the ladder altogether.
The theme today is the centrality of the local church and it's my honor and privilege To welcome you back to iron sharpens. I am radio pastor Jono Sims. And I want to urge my listeners If you live in Tennessee or if you're passing through Tennessee on vacation or on a business trip.
Or if you have family friends and loved ones in Tennessee Make sure you make the effort to visit the Church that I have been mentioning the outset of this program Shelby Mill Shelbyville Mills Baptist Church in Shelbyville, Tennessee and you will be blessed.
If you are a child of God, you will certainly be blessed by the preaching and teaching of pastor Jono Sims. I was Utterly blown away by this dear brother and I can understand readily now why Jeff Knoblet of Grace Life Church of the Shoals in Muscle Shoals, Alabama Continues to invite pastor Jono back year after year to preach at the true church conference and I I know that Our guest is probably embarrassed because he is a very humble man of God but I think We should give credit where credit is due and we should lift up and encourage our brethren, perhaps especially those in ministry When we know that they are faithfully serving our Lord God Savior and King Christ Jesus with the true Gospel and the true teachings of the inerrant word Why don't you tell our listeners about Shelbyville Mills Baptist Church in Shelbyville, Tennessee.
For 20 years on the other side. It's do you to praise God by the way folks?
I want to highly recommend a booklet very inexpensive booklet That you can purchase from Chapel library who brings back into print Book booklets that are excerpts typically of larger Volumes by great men of faith throughout history and this happens to be a fairly contemporary name James Adams not Jay Adams James Adams, he wrote a booklet called decisional regeneration and Because of our brother John O's mentioning that heresy that is prevalent throughout evangelicalism I just wanted to plug that booklet if you go to Chapel library org.
Chapel library org and if you type in the search engine at decisional regeneration by James Adams you can order that book, it's just a 24 page booklet and It's only 51 cents Per booklet, so it's well worth it and Also, I want to make sure that our listeners have the website for the church where our dear brother is serving as the undershepherd over God's people SMBConline .com.
SMBConline .com and that of course stands for Shelbyville Mills Baptist Church SMBConline .com and hopefully I'll remember to repeat that later on. Well brother as you know Unfortunately, we had a mishap Technologically last time you were on the program and I was so upset was one of those days when I had to Go back to where the rubber meets the road In regard to what I actually believe about the sovereignty of God God having sovereign control over all things, but the last program that we Had featuring you as a guest the very first time you were on the show The interview was not recorded due to some mishap that we have no idea my webs master.
And I have no idea how that happened. But we usually ask our first-time guests to give a summary of their salvation testimony and even though this is your second time on the program since it wasn't recorded last time if you could please give us a summary of the religious atmosphere if any you were raised in and What kind of providential circumstances are sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you?
Absolutely, I came through the ice and it is this change in my life. There was. Why did you get baptized the second time? Well, I made to profession even though you were not in your.
Recognizing in your own life any kind of real change of heart.
That's right. I mean, you know preached came and a revival don't hail. I was going to go to hell. Had no intention of so another. Again, I'm doubting myself at me and he said well John. Oh, you need to.
God does not practice my life. My life was a consistent practice. The only way I know how to explain it is I came under help and kind of counsel myself. Well, I'm saved and and you know Baptist taught me once saved always saved.
Obviously, I believe in the perseverance of the Saints all obvious. I believe in eternal security. But the way the doctrine quote of once saved always saved was was taught to me was basically You're saved.
And so you shouldn't look you shouldn't examine your life. You shouldn't look at this sin in your life because you're saved that's settled.
All right, what they really mean is once you think you're saved you're always safe, which is not necessarily.
Would say well now when you prayed that prayer. Did you mean it? I mean that that becomes the evidence of salvation rather than I mean every time I would get around a Brother that was faithfully fiction and my wife United Methodist Foundation and she was questioning me, but I couldn't really help her.
One night brother came unbearable. I was actually at a Bible conference. I left that conference and went out to my father-in-law's van and opened up the scriptures and man I just wrestled back and forth and all I can tell you brother is the hand of God was so heavy.
Yeah, it just God just broke me been made a new creature. And I knew there was no turning back and from that point at age 25 up until this very day. I'm 58. Though I'm not perfect. I would say that man.
My life has been radically different. It's been one of obedience and loving Christ and Christ is the Lord of my life he's the joy and the rejoicing of my heart and it's just an honor and a privilege to follow Jesus Christ, but you know, and I wouldn't have been.
I've been but man, I Experienced it and I've been walking in life since that day.
Amen and To compare that with decisional regeneration a lot of our listeners may not be familiar with that term but The the emphasis with decisional regeneration is man is what is going on in the mind and heart and out of the lips of the sinner who believes he is becoming a child of God merely by walking down an aisle and repeating a prayer.
And the vast difference between the regeneration that actually transforms a sinner is What you eventually? Thanks be to God experienced and and doesn't the the former the decisional regeneration. It is really Very close and I know I may be insulting a lot of people But it's very close to The way those who are involved in the occult view spells and and You know, it could almost be described as magic because as long as you Recite these magic words about being a sinner and needing a Savior and you accept Jesus into your heart.
You're safe according to many of these folks. Now, obviously there are different varieties of people that have altar calls and Would fall under the umbrella of decisional regeneration heresy, but at the same time it's really a Bizarre way for those who are biblically literate to view salvation, isn't it?
Absolutely brother. And they teach and basically in effect or if you get as they say Baptized for the remission of your sins, you know, it always comes down to Something man does something man says Something man does to quote activate, you know.
The saving grace of God and and that view of faulty Understand made a gym whether or not you want to expect just make your mind up one day that you want to accept that general offer and Bing bang boom you're saying the corrupt me my life because I had this fault saved always saved.
I can do whatever I want to do, you know and It's just a deadly trap.
Yes, and I thank God that the Lord has brought a number of people in the Church of Christ to a grace centered grace focused understanding of salvation and have abandoned the the legalism of the view of Baptism being required for the remission of sins Water baptism and It's interesting when when you view whether it be somebody who believes that they need to be dunked or sprinkled or Their magic words when they go up forward to at an altar call as they they refer to them.
They think these folks that a sinner Before he was regenerate would even want to be saved like Like in the Church of Christ or many of those congregations the the man or woman or Older child is standing waist-high in a pool of water Waiting to Be incorporated into the Church of Christ and to be saved and to be born again and they think that that person who is standing waist-high in that water is lost at that moment and Why on earth would a lost person and a person who is dead in their trespasses and sins a person was a heart of stone.
They wouldn't be wanting these things. They wouldn't have any interest in being connected to Christ and and Being born again other than some kind of benefit typically earthly benefit that they think they are getting by being religious or a Sav of the conscience that they have a one-way ticket to heaven of course the Most in the Church of Christ believe you can lose your salvation.
They don't believe that that would be a one-way ticket to heaven, but but it's really the It is really beginning with a very flawed view of man the nature of man, isn't it?
Well, they're 100 is convention for but what we've seen but my whole life. Decades and decades and then a patent called of God. He's committed to preach. It's all-out war because you have so many and now they're deacons on committees.
That's the way most Baptist churches are structured like that. And it's just a stranglehold and chokehold on the church and it all begins with this faulty view of salvation. That you walk an aisle pray a prayer make a decision and you know.
You're saved and I think back to what you were talking about earlier. I think the motive is. This is just my experience. I think the motive is it's almost like life insurance or health insurance. Let's get this wrapped up.
Let's get our hell insurance. Let's get that settled get that nailed down. You come on make this decision get baptized. Okay now you got that settled. Okay, we'll go on with life now and Most people that's what they do.
Well, just like I bought life insurance just like I bought health insurance. I've got I've got heaven insurance now got that settled. Let's just go on with life and forget about it and and the and you look at their Membership and you look you look at their commitment to Christ.
It's pretty obvious. That's what it is. Yep, and.
Even our more More serious Roman Catholic friends who are enslaved by a false gospel the more serious Roman Catholic even acknowledges that the vast majority of Roman Catholics have the same mindset. All's they have to do is go to confession.
And have the sacrament of penance and doesn't matter what they have done Before and it doesn't matter what they do after as long as they get the confession again. Go ahead, I'm sorry.
It can be the sacrament of the Eucharist. It can be the sacrament of water baptism. Or it can be the sacrament or walk in the aisle and pray in the prayer. What if Satan care as long as he carries a soul to hell, you know, right and and and right.
That's the problem with this whole Armenian man sent to gospel of Jesus Christ.
No, and I don't know if you know who the late Richard Bennett was a dear friend of mine for decades. He was a native of Ireland and a Roman Catholic priest For quite a number of years and God saved him and he became a reformed Baptist evangelist and apologist and author.
A founder of the Berean beacon. But I had the privilege of seeing him and hearing him Preach in person a number of times. And he was actually in a fundamentalist church that practiced the altar call. And He said from the podium What is? this nonsense about the altar call where you're.
Calling upon people to invite Jesus into your heart he said. As a Roman Catholic, I Invited Jesus into my heart and even my mouth and stomach through the Eucharist every day didn't make me any more saved than I was before.
And This whole concept of inviting Jesus in your heart is not even a biblical one. Jesus wants to remove the hearts of his people His elect who are lost. He wants to remove their hearts and does and replaces their hearts of stone with hearts of flesh.
Doesn't it ask for us to invite him into our rock hard wicked heart?
Yes, when you examine the motive the heart it's all based upon the quote, you know choice.
Amen, and as my friend pastor Bill Shishko who is an Orthodox Presbyterian minister has said In reality Arminians are non liturgical Roman Catholics. Now I want to quickly add to that to my Arminian friends listening.
I know that many of you are dear dear brothers in Christ, and I know pastors Who are not reformed who I love so deeply who care So deeply about the souls in their congregation and they are not Vehement anti sovereign grace men, they just don't understand all of the Specifics that are really behind What we see visibly and physically when someone comes to Christ they just don't understand the invisible end of God's sovereignty.
But I know I don't want to broad brush all my Arminian friends because there are even some of them. Especially when they're pastors that I know Who if there was not a sovereign grace believing church around or if the sovereign grace believing churches?
Had horrible dictatorial pastors. I would join where they are pastoring. So I just wanted to make that clear and I'm sure you agree that we don't want to broad brush.
The our true brethren amongst those ranks. No, I was still there. God is sovereign enough to say. But when you read his son God-centered and if you just picked up one of his starts many of his sermons and read them.
You would think you were reading the Calvinist especially the hymns that he and his brother Charles wrote.
Yeah, but but brother they were God-centered. They weren't man-centered and that's the right like you're talking about whom we love. Some of that man is way way way off, you know, of course, I think that's what we're talking about.
We have to go to our first break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for John O Sims pastor of Shelbyville Mills Baptist Church in Shelbyville, Tennessee on the centrality of the local church.
We will also allow other questions that involved Pastoral issues since our guest today is a pastor. But we hope that most of you will keep it. Keep your questions to the theme As closely as you can. The centrality of the local church.
Our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com chris a r n z e and a gmail .com. As always give us your first name at least your city and state of residence in your country of residence. If you live outside of the USA, don't go away.
We'll be right back with John O Sims right after these messages from our sponsors as a mother.
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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnson of iron sharpens iron radio. If you just tuned us in our guest today for the entire two hours is pastor Jono Sims senior pastor at Shelbyville Mills Baptist Church in Shelbyville, Tennessee.
We are addressing a very important theme in the body of Christ the centrality of the local church. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.
Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Always give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
Let's see we have Austin in Whitehouse, Tennessee. How far or how close is Whitehouse to Shelbyville Mills brother?
I'm thinking okay. Well, if you're not already in a.
Biblically solid. Church home. Austin. We strongly urge you to look up our dear brother at the Shelbyville Mills Baptist Church. But he asks. I have a question regarding communion. I See here. I have a friend who attends a different church than I.
He explained to me his concerns about his church's Communion practice. He said that they had communion only twice in the last five months. He has come to the conviction that communion should be practiced weekly.
Because of his church's communion practice. He is wondering if communion can be practiced at home. So can believers particularly a family practice communion at home. And if so then where is the line drawn between the spheres of church and family.
Our Ministers the only ones to administer the sacraments. What are the scriptural proof texts? Thank you your brother in Christ Austin from Whitehouse, Tennessee.
Believe that John MacArthur, you know, and that's what we mean by Excommunication is that if a brother one of the local charity and authority in comes a member of the local church talks about Receipt is what to be of that local church.
And of course, I'm.
Assuming you would believe that when you refer to the church, you're not talking about the building because a Congregation if a house is large enough can gather. At someone's house where they may have a swimming pool to have a baptismal service in the church building does not have such a font available.
So I'm assuming that you would think that that would be okay if a congregation gathered for instance.
One summer afternoon and someone's backyard and there was a baptismal service in the pool. All right, right. That's what I mean. Local church is if that yeah, if they're a local church, right? Yeah, as long now, how about the other question about our ministers the only ones to administer the sacraments.
I've been in Biblically sound churches where you may have a deacon. Baptizing someone might even just be a man who is a man of a high respect of very credible profession in the Congregation whose child is being baptized.
When I say child. I mean a child of an age where you can Have confidence their profession is is genuine. Is that acceptable in your opinion or must it be the pastor or an elder of the congregation?
Well. Make sure unlike my test of what genuine conversion is that as best we can we are human and we're fallible so we can miss things but as best we can discern through the Scriptures and speaking with this person that they have indeed been born again.
And that's a process, you know that that we take very seriously here. And then we would baptize baptize them and then one of the pastors would oversee the Lord's Supper Service and our and so I'm just anyone That wants to baptize or just anyone that wants to go somewhere and administer The Lord's Supper because I think these things operate under the watch care and the authority of the elders to make sure that the you know that fidelity to the Word of God is being held up and.
How would you respond to churches that would send? At least a small group from the congregation to a nursing home where you have an elderly person who is not able physically to Venture beyond the the The four walls of that nursing home and they want to obey Christ in baptism.
They want to be immersed and there are Facilities at that nursing home where that person can be immersed.
As a believer our deacons the Lord's Supper to and certainly if there was someone that was converted and They are not physically able, you know to make it to the church. We would baptize them there. But again, that's under the authority of the church.
Not just some freelance guy out here, right? You know his doctrine and preaching and practice and so but see I see those things as operating under the authority of the local church and. So we we actually do things.
I'm so glad to hear that because I.
Disagree with it seems I may be wrong on this, but it seems that the majority of reformed Baptist With whom I had had conversations about this Do not bring the Lord's Supper to nursing homes. Now I can understand perhaps being opposed to it if it's just one person doing it, but if you're you know having having a group or even a small one from a local congregation bringing the Lord's Supper to a Shut-in a homebound person or a nursing home.
I just don't see The biblical conflict with it at all. In fact, I wonder why they think it's okay to deprive Someone who is a shut-in a homebound or a nursing home resident from a very important ordinance of the church.
One thing the name is Joshua and and by the way, brother He's even gotten us know if you search for the faithful expositor. Podcaster. Really great, but we've started whenever we have the Lord's way the way we do it.
If if this is available to them if it's not we we do it and that's like what you're talking about. But we take some means in communion here point if they're able to in fact.
I want to pick up right where you left off there because we have to go to our midway break. And I'll pick right where you left off. Sorry folks, please be patient with us because this is a longer break that we have in the middle of the show.
Please be patient with us, but use this time wisely by responding to our advertisers and At least by thanking them for sponsoring this program and also send in questions to pastor Jono Sims at Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com.
Don't go away. We're gonna be right back right after these messages.
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I'm dr. Tony Costa professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.
It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word and to Enthusiastically proclaim Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island and beyond.
I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and Receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have. For more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church Go to Hope Reformed Li .net That's Hope Reformed Li .net or call 6 3 1 6 9 6 5 7 1 1.
That's 6 3 1 6 9 6 5 7 1 1. Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.
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Before we return to Pastor Jono Sims and our discussion on the centrality of the local church I just want to make it a couple of more announcements. Folks if you love this show and you don't want it to disappear I'm urging you please go to saw go to a higher and sharpen Zion radio .com Iron sharpens iron radio .com click support then click click to donate now.
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So I may be able to help you. And I know right away if you live in Shelbyville Tennessee, there's an excellent church there where pastor Jono Sims is pastoring. But I may be able to help you in all parts of the world no matter where you are.
So send me an email if you are in that dilemma of not having a biblical church where you are a member. Send me an email to Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Chris Arnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line.
That's also the email address where you can send a question to pastor Jono Sims on the centrality of the local church. That's Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least city and state of residence and country of residence pastor Jono.
Before the break we were talking about shut-ins and folks in nursing homes and so on and through the wonderful gift of Technology and the Internet. In our day and age we can have worship services viewed and listened to by people who are physically unable to get to a local church and That is an extraordinary blessing and a gift from God.
However, I'm very sure you agree with me since you believe so strongly in the centrality of the local church That you would be very opposed. In fact, I think you would probably put it in the category of sin for people who are physically capable of being An active participant in a local church, but choose to say stay home and just watch worship services on TV which in reality if a Physically Able person is just sitting at home.
Watching something that's really not involved in a worship service. Am I going too far here the giving of offerings? Where's you know, we can give you the Lord's completely wrong-headed the church. Gave to the local.
Completely agree with you bro. Obviously, there's mercy and grace from God and thank God we have the gift of you know. Broadcasting our standard by God. Now this idea that many in evangelicalism.
That profess to be Christians. I suspect a great percentage of them may not truly be regenerate because if you love Christ you're going to love his church. And in fact, it's interesting as you know very well when a Soul of Tarsus was stopped dead in his tracks on the road to Damascus He was gathering up men and women and murdering them for their allegiance to Christ.
Jesus Said to him from heaven He didn't say why are you persecuting my people? He said why are you persecuting me? So if you love Jesus Christ, you really if you if you despise his people and you don't want to gather with his people.
It's a very strong sign. You are not regenerate. But this this idea That the church doesn't matter. Very often the excuse is well going to church or being a member of a church Doesn't save you now. That's true but to extend that fact to a practice of not Going to services and being a member of a church under the authority of local elders.
Because being a member of a church doesn't save you this is really a Sinful and damning twisting of the scriptures, isn't it?
He is. I had a brother tried to make me say you. You know, you know. Something's not salvific doesn't mean that it's unimportant. You know. And and being a member of the local church. Yeah, just like in the epistle of James.
James is making it clear that if you have a profession of faith, but do not demonstrate Benevolence and compassion and care to those in need You are lost. Your faith is a dead faith. Not that giving to the poor and needy is saving you or a Requirement for regeneration, but at the same time if you are lacking that as an evidence if you are a tree That is not bearing that fruit that is a very serious and Frightening sign that you are a bad tree that you are a spiritually dead person.
Am I right and why people don't get that career that I believe with all my heart. But I just for the life of me don't understand why people don't understand that it's not that difficult. You know. We go back to Romans chapter 8 all whom God justified you could imply Sanctified because it says they're conformed to the image of Christ and then breaking that chain I mean it and sanctification and if you're not experienced every time.
But and every every will perform. Amen.
Amen. Hallelujah. We have a question from an anonymous listener Who says that he or she is remaining now anonymous as to not offend his Catholic family or her Catholic family members. But the question is I have heard Chris Arnzen on this program say that he has a theory that many people within Evangelicalism have this horrible and sinful and heretical idea that they do not need the church Because they are Overreacting to the heresy of Roman Catholicism that teaches that the church is what doles out?
Salvation to its members. Would you agree with this? And yes that I have said that but I'd also like to add obviously There are multitudes of Catholics that have no real connection to their local parish and They think that they're just fine and dandy and in fact, they have a Pope right now who has Publicly declared that an atheist can go to heaven just because he's gotten his child baptized and things like that.
But I think that that could be a reality, especially when you're talking about Somebody who is originally raised in a more hardcore dogmatic Roman Catholic background that is actually faithful to the heresies of the Council of Trent rather than a modern Catholic Church, but if you could give your own.
Opinion on that brother the same thing and then that baptism is not important or a person communion. But here's the deal just because there's a church of Salvific or just because there's someone that perverts the doctrine of baptism and makes it Salvific or the Lord's Supper and makes itself if it does not take our job is not in an unhealthy way to correct a problem.
Our job is to read the New Testament baptism and the Lord's Supper and do that and so this whole reactionary. Of where people have been it doesn't matter which you're in a ditch. You're in a ditch. And so our job is to try to find out biblically.
What does the Bible teach about these things and practice them in the way Christ gave them to the church?
We have a listener that actually is Hitting the nail on the head Related to things that you just said we have Joseph in South Central, Pennsylvania. Who says must we not be always careful not to be cold and Unsympathetic to those who were really harmed mentally Mentally spiritually emotionally and even physically in cults and horrible churches.
Not that this would ever be a reason to allow them to never belong to a solid church in their future without being chastised over this but at the same time don't you think that patience and Love needs to be poured upon Individuals like this because many of us have never experienced something like that before.
Yeah, that's that's. I agree with that very much and I'm sure you do Jono and and this would when we think about people who? Have been in cults and so on unfortunately people can have horrific experiences even in theologically sound churches that are Functionally behaving like dictatorships and In our own reformed Baptist churches are not foreign to this.
I'm not saying that the most of them are conducting church that way but it is true that people have been really psychologically and emotionally harmed and you might even have somebody in a Theologically indoctrinally sound church has been a molested by a pastor physically or whatever.
So we have to be very careful not to be Bulldozers in this area, right?
All right, it could not agree more. It's a great comment that the brother makes and I'll tell you we're swayed people. We teach our membership information class once a month the second Sunday of every month and we just make a general announcement that if you would like to go through they've been in an unhealthy church or they Abused or they you know pass and they've just been we're not going to push and you know.
Yeah, I can bet and that's complete. Yes. I am even aware.
Baptist churches Who have told people that if they leave that specific? Congregation that independent congregation that they are doomed to hell, you know right, and of course if somebody is just leaving a church because they don't want to be under discipline or they don't like the lack of Professionalism and the way people are singing in the choir or whatever Ridiculous reason they have.
And they are not attaching themselves to another true congregation then of course we could be Ready to plead with them that if they are not demonstrating a love for the body of Christ and an urgency to be attached to it by being under the authority of local elders Then we do have reason for concern over their salvation.
I've been and I've been here 22 of them, but man, I don't believe they love the Lord. There's just a lot of different circumstances that you know that led them to leave but my major reaction. When a person leaves our church is not I don't default to oh, well, they're not saved you know a lot of them are saved and.
They could be in a season of disobedience or there could be a number of factors going on. But I'm like you if a person willfully forsakes the church as a matter of fact if you want to get right down to it if you read that text in Hebrews chapter 13 and.
And he talks about while you're doing that. I'll just announce our email address again. It's Chris Ornson at gmail .com. Chris Ornson at gmail .com. Go ahead. I'm not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together as the matter of some the day approaching the next word in Hebrews 10 26 is conjunction for.
Now he's about to tell us. He's identified the sin. It's forsaking the assembly and now he's defining what that scene is. He says if or if we sin willfully and he goes on to say and you insult the Holy Spirit of grace.
I believe that's what a person does when they forsake the assembly. That this is a serious thing. It's a high-handed sin in the face of God and brother, you know, we reform brothers. We talk about. You know, well, how much more particular brother Chris could you get?
Then Ephesians 5 and gave himself for her. Amen. Amen, and when when you're you're trotting Jesus under your feet. You're counting the blood unholy because Christ shed his blood for the church and you're insulting the Holy Spirit.
That draws in and can and converts a man. Amen. And so the church is not some like you gave in your introduction. Hallelujah. He's coming again for the church and and so, you know. That matter and it's offensive to me of the nonchalant careless whimsical church or they have this idea of a where you know, and we understand her of the Universal Church and who are the elders of the Universal Church and The Universal Church is not going to discipline you if you're in sin.
The Universal Church is not going to come visit you in the hospital if you're sick. You don't have to give of your finances to the look to the Universal Church and the Universal Church doesn't go on mission trips.
And fulfill the Great Commission.
Amen, and one of the things I know you wanted to highlight in this discussion that you really can't remove from a serious discussion of the centrality of the local church is church discipline and To repeat I know that those who listen to my program Regularly, they know that I brought this up a lot, but there's a reason I bring it up a lot.
I myself Over a decade ago was under church discipline because I lapsed back into the damnable practice of drunkenness. During a season in my life during my wife's illness and in her subsequent going home to heaven I Lapsed into back into a sin.
That I was guilty of habitually participating in before I was saved and was sober as a Christian for 18 years and Sadly, and when I say lapsed back, and I'm not trying to candy coat my willful rebellion against God so I Ask for your forgiveness for perhaps using a bad term lapsing back in but I jumped with Jumped into with the full knowledge of my rebellion into this this wicked behavior.
And if it were not for loving and compassionate and biblically faithful elders Who cared more not only about God? than men But cared more about me Than my comfort zone or me Being angry with them or whatever.
They cared more about my soul and even my physical life Than the superficial areas of life that they enacted Church discipline on me and I believe and I'm not exaggerating. I think that's the primary reason other than God's sovereign hand Itself that's that's the real reason I'm sitting here alive with air in my lungs and a beating heart because if I had not been put under to church discipline I really think that I'd be dead and If I had died in that state, I'm not saying that I would Have gone to hell for eternity because I believe that I was regenerate before this.
But those around me who are not omniscient they would have no reason to have confidence that I was certainly Saved and they would be mourning in a different way they would be mourning over a person that they believe may very well have been a reprobate, but if you could Just speak a bit on this greatly despised Teaching and practice which is such a core and important thing For a loving and compassionate church to be participated in this is not an act of hate when conducted biblically.
Am I right?
One hundred percent. I mean this humbly I can explain it to you. But if you've never seen it, it's extremely difficult for me to help you understand. Most people have a wrong mindset that church discipline.
Oh y 'all you just shit, you know, right and on my way home tonight and yet that's what we you know. It's we've not loved. Yeah, this is a rest. This is a rescue mission when you're putting people on the discipline.
One thousand percent it's a rescue mission and and you know, that's if you Google is Wow and the community. Would say in the man. I was hateful. It's not loving. He's at their mortgage. We paid their light bill.
We paid their groceries. We paid their car payment. We paid off their credit cards. We completely financially undergirded her and When he got out of jail, the first person who came to see was me and weeping he said brother I want to get right with my church.
Amen. Listen, they did a good job it on TV and that six o 'clock news and gave the man y 'all did that, right? I didn't understand but I see it now and so I just Challenge anybody listening, you know There's so many things.
I want to say the most loving the loving redemptive was by the way Jesus Christ the son of the Living God. This is why the words in Matthew chapter 18 are in red. It's Jesus Christ who suffered bled died on the cross who told us to practice church this.
Amen, and of course We do not want to make light of or ignore the fact that there are churches that conduct Discipline in an unbiblical manner in a tyrannical manner. And not only is the discipline itself unbiblical.
But the reasons for the discipline are unbiblical so we don't want to ignore that. That exists, of course. Yes, and and of course Listeners who may be bristling at what we are saying. Just imagine parents Allowing their children to do anything they wanted to do without any discipline to well be involved in life activity.
You don't have to imagine it. Just look at America. Yeah, right. Look our cities and look at this and we have to go to our final break.
It's gonna be a lot more brief than the other ones. If you have a question send it in right now because they're rapidly running out of time. Chris Ornson at gmail .com. Chris Ornson at gmail .com. Give us a first name at least city and state and country of residence.
Don't go away. We'll be right back with Jono Sims. After these messages. When iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors.
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Pastor Jono, can you give us some of the primary reasons in the ten minutes that we have left as to? Why the centrality of the local church is such an extremely important and vital issue.
It is rightly divide the word of truth accountability Protection and safety for your soul Watching as the Bible says as those who must give an account the Holy Spirit. I believe the chief agent of sanctification in the life of a believer that the Holy Spirit uses is the preaching and the tape that comes through that local church and Then there is what we've just discussed.
There's the necessary discipline that the Lord uses to keep a Strain and then brother that I just came out you just came through the true church conference and we just had our world impact conference here this past week the Great Commission was given to the local church and Participating with my church in going into all the world.
We had 12 missionaries here last week from all over the world and to be in part. And these brothers have the same convictions that we do about the local church and about the Word of God and to partner with them and seeing other churches planted and other pastors being called to pastor these Congregations the spreading of the gospel through the nation's God's ordained that that come through the local church.
That's the way that that's the only way I mean I could run the gamut brother, but just in a nutshell Those are in the those are in any place. They'll there is definitely a spirit of.
Arrogance and narcissism. In the in the mind and heart of somebody even if they don't recognize it themselves and those people rarely do. But to have an attitude where you do not need the church. Where you think you're smart enough?
You don't need a pastor a preacher a teacher to guide you through the scriptures. You don't think that that that these people are even worthy of your benevolence and love and active Assistance in life, there's really there's a real arrogance there, isn't there?
There is brother. I need the church like I said, and I need the church. I had some kidney issues and brother this brother loves the Lord and he sat there this morning and just wept. About how his church has ministered to him that people have prayed for him.
And he was humble and broken and thankful and grateful. What he was saying is I need my church and and this church has rallied behind him and his family and prayed for him and carried meals and ministered to them and Taking care of things around the house that needs to be fixed and tears and people have gone by and they prayed.
Brother, it's just of a biblically healthy church and for those people that you've just described. I feel sorry for brother. I really feel sorry for him because they they don't know what they've missed.
They're missing. And I also feel sorry for the person listening who's only ever experienced a weak anemic. My heart grows. Like I said earlier you almost have to experience that a healthy church to understand what I'm talking about.
It's a wonderful wonderful thing to be a part of the biblically healthy church.
And what I have told folks Who will point to either their own pastor that was Involved in something that harmed them mentally Spiritually emotionally or even physically. Or they'll they will point to notorious charlatans That we have seen in the media over most of us in our entire lives of Watching television and listening to the radio.
We've heard about these false teachers and so on. They will use that as an excuse of keeping clear of the church, but What I have said to people like that is so you are rejecting Jesus because of Judas you are denying and disobeying clear commands of Christ and his God-breathed word because of what some people who profess to be Christians have done.
Sinfully, I mean even in the recorded words of the Bible we have false Christians That existed wolves and sheep's clothing. So the Bible doesn't keep that a secret as if That doesn't exist we're not supposed to be running away from a.
True church just because false churches exist or false Christians. I read just today About a medical doctor in the code malpractice that she's been involved in but the next time I get sick, I'm. Wish people would just if I would just say, you know what?
I want to go to the lake on Sunday. I'm not going to church. At least I could respect them for being honest. Yeah.
Yeah, in fact there are children who have been legally removed from their homes because their parents or a parent was violent or sexually abusive to that child. Does that mean that we're not supposed to put that child up for adoption somewhere because a parent?
Did something horrible that doesn't mean all parents are horrible. So, yeah, well I want you in 90 seconds to really summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today, brother.
What I would say that if you study your Bible You will not be able to deny how to see it. Even local churches in a the people knew each other's plan and if you. Because this is the play Christ and just because we're in plan of the local church.
Amen, and I want to remind our listeners that if you want more information about pastor John O sims and Shelbyville Mills Baptist Church in Shelbyville, Tennessee go to smbconline .com Smbconline .com and I don't want to forget about anchored in truth either a sponsor of this program anchored in truth org Anchored in truth org pastor John O sims.
It has been such a delight to have you on the program. I would hope that you enjoyed it enough that you will want to be a regular returning guest because I know that we just scratched the surface Of things that we could discuss and I look forward to your frequent return to iron trumpets iron radio.
I want everybody who listened today to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ Is a far far greater Savior than you are. A sinner.