Ahmed Deedat's presentation on Muhammad in John 16

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation if you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now at 602 973 4602 or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James white And good morning, welcome to the dividing line those of you tuned in early as per the blog we're listening to Ahmed D dot presenting his

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Case that Muhammad is found in John chapters 14 and 16 in fulfillment of the

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Quranic promise that Jesus had testified to the coming of Muhammad and so I wanted to provide a

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That whole section a little over 20 minutes so just so you get a feel for the kind of cadence the kind of Argumentation that you would expect to hear from Akhmed D dot because he continues his his videotapes

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Yes, VHS videotapes and now DVDs continue to be exceptionally popular in the

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Islamic world and so in fact the the fellow that Was speaking with me in the conference in Toronto the

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BT the fellow he debated in Dubai Was a complete

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D dot wannabe. I Mean he spoke like D dot he moved his hands like D dot it was you know,

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I there's there's one certain reformed Baptist preacher who is very very well known and as a result there are many reformed

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Baptist preachers today who sound like that one particular gentleman and Their their hand motions are like that one particular gentleman and they they consciously or subconsciously have taken on the

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The mannerisms of that particular individual. Well, obviously that's the same with Ahmed D dot as well and so we're gonna look at that for a while and then we're also going to get back to the

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Jimmy Akin Thing as well here on the dividing line today. So let's start with Ahmed D dot

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I'm just going to start him and then when he says things that need to be responded to you might want to have

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Your Bible and looking at John 14 through 16 remember in essence what allows the

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Muslim to believe? that This text has to do with Muhammad Is twofold first of all, they will assert corruption of the text whenever There is a disagreement between the text and the

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Quran we have identified that as Islamic Anachronistic Eisegesis that is looking back to text the

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Bible through the lens of the Quran results in gross distortion and so Whenever you have a text that is clearly contrary to Islamic teachings, then it's just been corrupted somebody though They can never point you to the corrupt or and they can never point you to a a text that exists earlier in a pure state that would say otherwise

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There has been a corruption of that text, but when they can then read into the text even in this case when they're saying the

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Text is corrupted They will utilize that text in support of Islam.

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So what they do is they take the term para clay toss and What they say is that that noun has been changed and It originally had to do with it was originally an adjective and that that adjective means an exalted one and that this is reference in reference to Ahmed or to Muhammad and the reason

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I think they can get away with that is that is that you in their mind Arabic since it is a

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Consonant old language is made up of consonants and you fill in the vowels They think that's what's going on in John, but John wasn't written in Arabic or even in Hebrew is written in Greek and in the

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Greek language You can't do that. The vowels are a part of the word. It is not a consonant old language and so Para clay toss is is not an adjective that can be just turned into Something it means exalted one

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Perry clue toss or something like that and though the consonants are the same the vowels are different and But they're thinking

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Arabic and they're thinking well, you know, you can just change the vowels and and and it would fit

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But you can't do that in the Greek language There are no manuscripts that have that kind of reading the vowels are there from the very earliest manuscripts of the

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Gospel of John and of course We have a number of manuscripts the Gospel of John that predate the rise of Islam and hence there would have been no reason for anyone to have made those kinds of changes anyway

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So with that in mind, and in fact, let me just go ahead and do this with that in mind Keeping in mind that the the

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Islamic assertion is is that this is not the Holy Spirit of God Which Muslims don't know a lot about anyways, because there is almost no reference to the

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Holy Spirit in the Quran there are a couple interesting references, but most Muslims believe the

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Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel anyway, and So with that in mind

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Let's just remind ourselves of what the scriptures say About the comforter about the

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Holy Spirit in John 14 16 for example John 14 verses 16 through 17 says I will ask the father and he will give you another helper that he may be with you forever

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That is the spirit of truth and the world cannot receive because it does not see him or know him

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But you know him because he abides with you and will be in you now. There is no way There's nothing here about a para clay toss here we have the spirit of truth completely different the different phraseology in the

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Greek language, obviously in any language for that matter and How would this fit with Muhammad that he may be with you forever is

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Muhammad with us forever? Of course not The world cannot receive him.

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What does that mean? I mean it makes sense in the context John's gospel because we're talking about the spirit of God here and Regeneration things like that that the rest of New Testament makes sense of it

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It makes no sense whatsoever transported into the Islamic context because it does not see him. Did they not see

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Muhammad? Or know him that they not know Muhammad, but you know him because he abides with you and will be in you and of course what you're gonna hear in a little while is an argument from Ddot that we would have to believe that the

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Holy Spirit came into existence After the time of Jesus and since the Holy Spirit had pre -existed the time of Jesus very plainly

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This means that this couldn't be about the Holy Spirit. No, it just means that I'm a D dot couldn't do any meaningful acts of Jesus John 14 16 through 17 couldn't make any

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Application whatsoever to Muhammad. So it just must have been corrupted. See You see how the circular argumentation works

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John 14 26 But the helper the Holy Spirit whom the father will send in my name was

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Muhammad sent in the name of Jesus Of course not Jesus is a minor Elements, you know 25 verses that use use the name of Jesus of whom the father spent in sending my name

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He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you if anything is true

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It is that the Jesus of the Quran is but a shallow shadow a non person a mere argument for the prophethood of Muhammad certainly not one who

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Muhammad certainly did not bring to Remembrance all that Jesus had said

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I mean if all you've got is what she has said is what's in the Quran basically all Jesus ever said was worship

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Allah and follow Muhammad the Prophet That's that's it nothing nothing more and so Obviously Muhammad did not teach them all things and Muhammad did not bring him to their remembrance all that was said and this is said

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To you that the Apostles Muhammad comes 600 years later. I Jesus is about to ascend back to the to the father in heaven and all that is completely ignored by by the

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Islamic perversion of this text in John 15 when the helper comes verses 26 27 when the helper comes whom

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I will send you from the father That is the spirit of truth who proceeds from the father He will testify about me and you will testify also because you have been with me from the beginning.

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So Muhammad testified about Jesus. Well, I suppose you might be able to stretch it that far

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But he certainly did not give us anything that we didn't know from the New Testament And he took away almost everything we did know from the

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New Testament Turns that all into alleged perversions of later Generations, but of course, it's

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John 16s where he's focusing his attention But that's because he's pretty much ignoring the actual context that John 14 15 and 16 is all one

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And so in John 16 verses 7 through 11 But I tell you the truth it is to your advantage that I go away for if I do not go away the helper will not

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Come to you not notice not the helper will not come into existence But the helper will not come to you.

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But if I go I will send him to you He's talking here about the relationship that he's had with the disciples the spirit is going to take that role in their lives not that the spirit hasn't been there before or That the spirit didn't exist or the spirit hadn't been in John or any of that stuff

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That's just that's just a gross misreading of the text. There's no basis for it well except if you're a

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Muslim and you accept the Quran to be the Word of God then you read these things back into it and Force John to basically be completely nonsensical and he says

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I will send him to you when he and he when he comes and yes, these are masculine pronouns because the

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Holy Spirit is a person and You'll see the D dot will focus on that. It's a person a person a person

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Well a a the Holy Spirit speaks the Holy Spirit wills the Holy Spirit is a person

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That's why it's there verse 8 and he when he comes will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment

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The vast majority of the world has never had never heard of Muhammad for many hundreds of years again another 600 years

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Before he's gonna even come along So when it says I will send him to you The you can't actually be the people to whom

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Jesus is actually addressing his words because that's gonna be 600 years down the road Concerning sin because they do not believe in me

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That's certainly not what Muhammad's message was and concerning righteousness because I go to the father and you longer see me and concerning judgment because the rule

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This world has been judged. You don't have any idea of what any of that means just from the

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Quran You have to go to the New Testament for the meaning of those things I have many more things to say to you

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But you cannot bear them now see the you is clearly the disciples not people 600 years down the road

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But when he the spirit of truth comes he will guide you into all the truth for he will not speak on his own initiative

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But whatever he hears he will speak and he will disclose to you What is to come they like to focus it on that because well you see

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Muhammad wasn't speaking for himself The Quran is not is not Muhammad's words. It's God's words just revealed to him, etc, etc

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Of course as a Christian, I reject that and see lots of Muhammad In fact, I have to see

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Muhammad in the Quran since the Quran does not was written by someone who didn't understand the doctrine The Trinity and I know that God does understand the doctrine of the

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Trinity. Therefore, it could not have been God I'm not going to accuse him of ignorance of such things as that verse 14

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He will glorify me Well, certainly Muhammad is not glorified Christ by turning him into a mere prophet and mirror

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Azul over against what his own revelation himself Was he will glorify me for he will take of mine and disclose it to you

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Muhammad did not do that because Muhammad did not have knowledge of The New Testament or the teachings of Christ all things the father has are mine

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Therefore I said he takes of mine and will disclose it to you. So none of these texts This text taken in any sensible fashion whatsoever can be applied to Muhammad There is just the the context is all wrong

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There's a 600 year time lapse in the way. The language is all wrong. It just doesn't work

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It is it is foolishness in its in its most extreme form and Yet you will see

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It's not it's not just Ahmed D dot that has made this argument. I've listened to Jamal battle We make the same argument from John 14 and 16

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You will hear this repeated over and over and over again. And so let's listen to Ahmed D dot making these points

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The Christians have developed a sickness a Sickness of changing translating names of people

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Which you have no right to do You have no right to translate people's name a proper name is a proper name be that is be that you can you know

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It's a be that in Africans What Be that is be that So they change the name

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Yeshua He saw he saw in Hebrew classical Yeshua, they change it to Jesus Jesus is a

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Latinized form of the Hebrew word. He saw No, it's Latinized form of the

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Hebrew word. Yeshua Jehovah is salvation and that is what is in the original language

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Anyone who would for example base any exegetical commentary on the

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Quran? outside of its original languages That would that would be an erroneous thing to do now, let me make one observation at that point while many

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Muslims think that Arabic is sort of like the heavenly language and That the since the

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Quran is written in Arabic then, you know That becomes the only Quran that makes a sense there are clearly loan words from other languages in in the

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Quran, especially from a Syriac and Syriac and Coptic and other languages like that do have an input into the background of the

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Arabic version of the Quran and so when we look at What particular words mean in the

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Quran and where they came from what their backgrounds are? It's perfectly legitimate to look at those backgrounds Just as when you look at a

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New Testament text looking at the Greek septuagint looking at the Hebrew that lies behind it is very

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Important but what he's saying here just from a linguistic perspective is almost laughable in in most of what he is going to attempt to do here, especially when he tries to get to the idea of Finding Ahmed as the spirit of truth in John 16

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You see Jesus in the second coming If he comes and if people recognize him as a shout

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Jesus Jesus Let's catch that in his second coming if he comes

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There is a doctrine of the second coming of Jesus in Islam and Jesus will destroy the cross and pigs and exactly what that means depends on which

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Muslim you're talking to but anyways, he will come and Will be a Muslim of course because from their perspective

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Jesus was a Muslim dressed like a Muslim prayed like a Muslim So on and so forth But what he's saying here is that if you'd cried out

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Jesus Then he wouldn't know who you're talking to because he's never heard this in all of his life That's the kind of Jesus that the

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Muslim believes It's a Christ Christ, I said look he'll never turn to look at you because he never heard the word

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Christ in his life He's a translation. He said I am the Messiah Translated Christ coming from the

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Greek word Christos He never heard the word. This is later on. This is what people did to his name.

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So they call him Jesus You never heard it Christ. He never heard it. So Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ Well, who you calling

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You never heard the term but they translated the names Jesus tells his disciple

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Simon He says Simon thou art chiefus, chiefus means you're like a rock and on this rock

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I'll build my church You are like a rock. You're a steady fellow like a fighting Irishman His name is

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Simon. So he said thou art chiefus in his own mother tongue. You are chiefus like a rock you So they translated chiefus into Petros in the

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Greek and from Petros they got Peter Peter never heard the word Peter in his life

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They have St. Peter in Rome, I think it should be

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St. Simon in Rome, look at some lines Then the 13th self -appointed disciple

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Apostle of Jesus self -appointed Catch that the 13th self -appointed. I guess you know you you take

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Matthias and Then you just you know, Paul is really really really really disliked by by Muslims for the obvious reason, of course that Islamic theology

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Is completely contradictory to the New Testament and to Pauline theology Jesus Christ meets him on the way on the

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Damascus Road at Paul says Said I heard a voice Paul says in the book of Acts chapter 26 verse 14.

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He says I heard a voice Speaking to me unto Paul and saying in the

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Hebrew tongue In the Hebrew language Saul Saul why persecutors have me white

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Persecutors are me It is hard for thee to kick against the prick Acts chapter 26 verse 14

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He said Saul so they change it to Paul Paul As a look st.

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Paul said the same Paul in London the big St. Paul's rhymes better st.

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Simon rhymes better No, they must Latinize it is a inferiority complex that all subject nations have you want to make your own name?

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Sound like that of your ruling race We are not now if you're sitting there going why is he taking all this time to talk about stuff?

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That's so silly I mean, it's the New Testament self that records the switch from Saul to Paul and It's not about ruling races or anything else

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It's just some people's names did change Peter would have understood Peter because he himself did see that when you look at his epistle and he did use that and You listen to all this and and you might say doesn't this just demonstrate.

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He doesn't know what he's talking about You got to realize who is his audience? Who is his audience who is what what is he attempting to accomplish with this kind of showmanship this this kind of Flashy look how much

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I know look how much Bible I can quote Remember when you're talking to an audience of people who can't quote any

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Bible if you can quote some Bible you look like you really know a lot and That's what's going on here.

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He's not trying to convince Christian scholars. He knows a Christian scholar is Is going to be looking at him like he just landed from another planet, but that's not his audience

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That's those aren't the people who are buying his books and buying his videos and and paying to fly him around the world

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To deliver these lectures against Christian We want to also change our names to sound like our bosses name we have beautiful name

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Fatima with a team up We have users with a Joe Joseph Joe when we do that same sickness the

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Christians had it now we are cultivating it He's a hajji. I said Now this is the sickness you see you don't want to be recognized as a

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Muslim says a team up team up This is a Fatima daughter of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam the leader of the women of paradise

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Remember He was a joke May Allah save us from the sickness is a sickness

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Oh sickness, but we must be on God The Christians what they did was they changed the name

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Esau to Jesus They changed the name Christ. I must Matthew Messiah to Christ Saul to Paul keep us to Peter So they must have done the very same thing with Muhammad Now you did it in a thousand different languages thousand different two thousand different world

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How you gonna grapple with this? So in his original language in Hebrew the nearest to that Ahmed is

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Muhammad Muhammad But since we can't Lay our hand on the original writings because they haven't got it

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We have thousands of manuscripts of the Christian scriptures, but there's not one in Hebrew The man is a

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Jew. He's talking to other Jews. He goes out of his way the most learned of the Jews for for He goes out of his way to speak

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Hebrew to him, but the common fishermen and laborers. He goes and speak Greek Does it make sense?

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Yeah, it makes sense makes lots of sense because Obviously the Gospels were meant to go and out into all the world and the common language of the world at that time

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Thanks to Alexander the Great and then followed by that by the Roman Empire was coin a Greek not

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Hebrew And it probably would have been Hebrew anyways probably an Aramaic that particular point in time So yes makes perfect sense to anyone who actually knows a little something about biblical backgrounds

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And they preserved it in Greek and that is also they call it coin a Greek coin a

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Greek means a common Greek of the Street like when we speak in Nassau, Kanaka, Lulu You know panacolo panacolo means like this like that because you can't see through well

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So it's a panacolo Zulu that panacolo Greek in that language. The Bible is preserved in what they call the so -called original

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There's not one Epistle written in the Hebrew language not one We have remnant of his utterances of Jesus When he is supposed to be on the cross, he cried out with a loud voice and lie and lie

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Lama sabachthani, that's Hebrew, which means my God my God. Why has that forsaken me? He goes to a place and the child was dying.

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So he said Sallisa Kumi that Hebrew means damsel girl get up That's Hebrew and Paul says he spoke to me in Hebrew, but what the words were he doesn't say he only recorded in Greek I don't know why he spoke

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Hebrew, but he records it in Greek now to arrive at The proper name

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We have to analyze this book And read how far we've gotten so far. We've I played a section last week and now we're six minutes and 27 seconds

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Into this. Do you are you seeing what we're doing here? Like I said, I could present his entire argument in 90 seconds and less

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I could write it in 30 seconds still be rather accurate about it. Well, he's up to six minutes What's going on here?

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Well, I think starting to figure it out, huh? And Afrikaan is the most beautiful for this job.

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I Want you to take a little extra trouble and memorize this book in Afrikaan Why in the world would you go to a translation rather than to the original?

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Okay John chapter 6 I'm sorry 16 verse 7

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In Afrikaans this is a unique language, every language is unique, but Afrikaans is more unique for this verse and you watch why?

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Samar eksa yaladhi vaarheik Dit is fa yala foor dhalak dhasek vaakhaan

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Wan dhasek asnee vaakhaannee Thaydee sooroosarnee

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Na yalakamnee There is no language on earth you use four negatives in one sentence

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Beautiful And to prove a positive you're using four negatives to prove a positive

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That I must go if I don't go he won't come, you know four times

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This is nee nee nee nee to prove. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah beautiful and Tomorrow morning you can start if you have an

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Afrikaaner boss go and congratulate him. He says boss You know, I just discovered that Afrikaans is a unique language

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Is young the youngest of one of the world's youngest languages, which is a unique language

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What makes you to say that is to look back one word for negative and I tell you

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So it is fascinating Okay, if you say so and I'm not sure exactly that has to do with the topic at hand but again this this the only way to to get a better idea of the showmanship or if you were watching this and You can go on YouTube and catch clips this kind of stuff.

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It's all over the place Can you see the emphasis? That means he must go if he doesn't go this one won't come So we are asking our

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Christian learned men who is this toaster? Who is this comforter? So this is the

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Holy Ghost? Finally finally, so we're asking our Christian friends. Who is this comforter and they say it's the

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Holy Ghost Of course using the King James the Holy Spirit Yes, the Spirit of Truth the helper the one sent by the

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Father the one to be with you forever. Yes, that's Finally we got there eight minutes and 13 seconds into this portion

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They said alright, it is the Holy Ghost We want to know When did the

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Holy Ghost come because Jesus said if I don't go he won't come And there you go. Notice when

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I started off the program. I said, obviously we're talking here about a particular Method means position for the

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Holy Spirit who comes After the crucifixion and he's taking a particular role that this the

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Sun has had so far in regards to Believers not somebody 600 years down the road, but to believers.

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It's a part of the ministry and so the question is when will the Spirit come in that context and What you're gonna now here is

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I'm a D dot spend a good deal of time Talking about the coming of the Spirit in a completely different context that has nothing to do with John 14 and John 16

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But if I go I will send him it's conditional. It is conditional.

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He must go otherwise The Holy Ghost won't come. It is the

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Holy Ghost but we say That the Holy Ghost was there before Jesus was born

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In the Bible before Jesus was born John the Baptist John the

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Baptist his cousin He was about six months to a year older than him before Jesus was born

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John the Baptist Yahya Alayhi Salaam was born and in the Gospel of st. Luke There's a

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Christian Bible chapter 1 verse 15. It says and he

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John the Baptist and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost even from his mother's womb

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John the Baptist had the Holy Ghost from his mother's womb before he was born. It was with him inside his mother's stomach

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What does it mean? even From his mother's womb.

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The Holy Ghost was with him Is it true or false? Is it true or false?

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If it's false, throw the book away If it's true, that means he had it Yep, no question about it.

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He had it nobody who accept anything in New Testament say otherwise Has absolutely nothing to do with the coming of the

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Holy Spirit to take the place of Christ in ministry to the Apostles and to dwell within them and to be there comforted a way that Christ has and anyone who actually wants to understand what

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John is saying recognize that and The only reason that someone would come up with something else would be what?

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Because they have a point they're trying to insert and acronistically that actually wouldn't have made sense for the next next 700 800 years or so actually until Islamic theology, you know started to solidify and make these assertions and and that's called again

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Islamic anachronistic eisegesis Before he was circumcised he had the

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Holy Ghost with him So he had nothing to do with Jesus going away But if I don't go he won't come but if I go

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I will send him But this Holy Ghost was before he was born. He was going around in woman's stomach, you know with a little infant child

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She was carrying him around the Holy Ghost was inside is That would would that count as hate speech in in European nations today?

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Maybe even up in Canada. I detect more than just a little bit of sarcasm and mockery of Christian theology there

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Why is it that Muslims can do that and that's just teaching Muslim theology but if we say something like Muhammad was ignorant of Biblical theology, which was a factual thing that somehow falls under the rubric of hate speech.

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Hmm Looks like a double standard there Let's go ahead and stop right there with and we can pick up with number two, which is ten minutes in I need to Remind myself where I am there next time around because you're getting an idea.

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I think a very clear idea of Where Ahmed didot is going and how he makes his presentations and what people find to be impressive about D dot's oratorical skills

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But so far we have seen almost no substance. We have we have seen the assertion that Christians have a disease of Translating names and we've heard a lot about Afrikaan And now we have the assertion that the

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Holy Spirit had not come until Jesus left of course

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John had said the Spirit had been active and when you read the New Testament as a whole

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It's very clear. The Spirit had been active So obviously there is a different context involved but you know, we can't read the

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Holy Testament because it's been perverted and changed and corrupted because well, some people suffer from Islamic anachronistic

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Eisegesis and so that's what we have so far. There will be some more There's there's one more sort of there's sort of one more argument that is presented

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Before he just completely goes off the rails someplace else to be honest with you, but We will get to that in time switching gears putting the clutch in switching gears completely here because we don't want to Completely drop this we want to finish it off.

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We have been over the past number of months now listening to snippets anyways portions of the 1995

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Bible Answer Man discussion between myself and and James Aiken back then

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Jimmy Aiken now staff apologists for Catholic answers and We did this because Catholic answers was selling the the debate or including it as a premium,

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I guess along with a debate a radio discussion of some sort that Tim Staples did with Steve Gregg on the subject

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Roman Catholicism and and they like to call this a debate. It was not a debate There was not equal time given to both sides.

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There was not one subject many times. You could not even finish Even addressing a particular subject because of phone callers or time constraints, whatever it might be.

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We've listened to the first hour It wasn't a full hour. It wasn't the first hour. It's pretty evenly dispersed at that point but we saw some problems and some of the things that Jimmy Aiken said the second hour was on the subject of salvation and specifically justification and This is the hour that I have mentioned to you before Jimmy Aiken gets two -thirds of the commentary time.

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I get one -third and that may be why they want to call this a debate because that certainly gives you a tremendous advantage in in being able to make your points when you have basically twice time the other guy does so We pick up with that and as I recall

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Hank had some introductory comments I may have to skip around a little bit to get us to where the actual discussion starts

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The official Roman Catholic position is with regards to justification James Aiken again.

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Welcome Thank you very much. I'm glad to be here with respect to the the three souls You just put out solo gratia by grace alone

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So let me know Fede by faith alone and solo Christo by Christ alone The Catholic Church has absolutely no problem with the concept concept of justification by grace alone.

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In fact, that is it's infallible teaching We cannot do anything of our own strength

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We have no ability to please God apart from God's grace Everything from salvation everything in salvation from beginning to end must be attributed to God's grace and God's grace alone and of course our response that would be

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That's where we differ about grace and that's one of the reasons that it's it's so disturbing to me to see so many

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Protestants today buying into this very kind of Dismissal of a biblical meaning of grace

34:43

When they grab hold of a very Roman Catholic style of sacramentalism and what

34:49

I mean by that Of course and those of you who've listened this program have heard this so many times you all could Say this in your in in your sleep.

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I would imagine but the difference Obviously the the the issue is not the necessity of grace, which is what

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Jimmy Aiken just affirmed there And of course the Roman Catholic Church affirms the necessity of grace then again

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So does the Mormon Church affirm the necessity of grace? It is not the necessity of grace

35:16

It is of course the sufficiency of grace that is at the heart of these things and by saying oh

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We believe in sola gratia. Everything's by grace what they mean by that is the sacramental system comes to us by grace

35:29

We are prompted to even obey the sacramental system by grace, but grace cannot accomplish the salvation of any particular human soul without The cooperation it is a center of that soul.

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It is a synergistic system over against a monergistic system It's always been where the dividing line is.

35:47

It remains there even though that line now Would separate us from many a person who calls himself a

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Protestant on that level as well And so while they say all we believe in sola gratia, not the way

36:00

I believe in sola gratia Because you cannot affirm sola gratia as a synergist in that fashion and you must be able to make that kind of distinction sadly

36:09

This is what we hear from many a Protestant today as well And we have to be consistent in pointing out the problem

36:17

They have if we're going to point out the problem that Roman Catholicism has the On the concept of justification by Christ alone.

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That is again also true It is Christ whose death on the cross according to the Council of Trent is the meritorious cause of our salvation

36:32

It is Christ who did this we are not able to do anything apart from Christ's grace now with his grace

36:39

We can do some stuff but apart from Christ's death on the cross. We have absolutely no ability to do anything

36:45

Whatsoever with respect to coming to God and asking for salvation with his grace. We can do some stuff

36:53

I You know, I just have to contrast that with Paul's own words if it's if it's by by grace

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It no longer works. Otherwise grace is no longer grace once you once you add that human element

37:07

Once you mix that into the freedom of God, that's no longer divine grace. Call it what you will but it's it's no longer

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Divine and and truly biblical grace can't even ask the question of God how can

37:19

I be saved much less embrace God's salvation without the Inspiration of the

37:25

Holy Spirit working in our lives because of what Christ Jesus did on the cross for us with regard to the

37:30

The the third solo you mentioned so Lafitte by faith alone Whether the cat whether a

37:36

Catholic will accept that is going to depend on what you mean by the term faith The term faith is used in different senses in the

37:41

Bible. For example in Galatians 5 6 you have Paul saying Paul talking about that nothing avails in Christ except faith working through love or An alternate translation faith made effective by love.

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He's talking here about a kind of faith that is Formed by love or informed by love to use the the standard

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Catholic theological terminology However in Romans 14 you find

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Paul using the word faith in a different sense same Greek word But he's using it to refer to mere intellectual belief, you know, just intellectually believing something

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That's also the kind of faith that James is talking about in James chapter 2 where he says even the demons have faith in that Sense they do intellectually believe that there is one

38:22

God But it doesn't save them. It doesn't stop them from trembling at the prospect of God's wrath. So here just Looking at those three passages.

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We see two different concepts of faith one concept of faith including the idea of love

38:37

Another so it's a faith that produces acts of love the other concept The term faith is just used to denote intellectual assent now historically in Christian history the term faith was used in the second sense the

38:52

Romans 14 James 2 sense Most of the time it was used to refer to intellectual assent So when the

38:57

Reformers burst on the scene and started saying justification by faith alone What the ordinary average person understood by that was justification by intellectual assent alone.

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In other words antinomian ism, which of course Means that either the

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Reformers were not clear and what they were saying or that is a a grossly

39:20

Misleading description of what it is they were saying I mean seriously is someone going to seriously suggest that when when

39:28

Calvin wrote on the meaning of sola fide That he did not go to great pains

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To to demonstrate that we're not talking about an intellectual assent alone

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I mean I can I consider one of the worst Heresies that afflicts

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Evangelicals today or post evangelicals today to to be the anti lordship

39:55

Faith is mere assent alone kind of theology. I decry it.

40:00

I oppose it I have almost no patience for it whatsoever It is a a soul damning heresy.

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It is not the gospel of Jesus Christ I'm not not sure how much stronger I could get and I can do that consistently while affirming sola fide why because I'm a

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Calvinist and I recognize where faith comes from and I recognize monergism and I recognize the work of the

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Spirit of God and there is a Balanced biblical presentation made of those things now in Arminian.

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I you know He's got a he's got a real problem at that point in trying to consistently

40:32

Hold to sola fide and yet at the same time fight off any kind of Cheap grace easy believism tip your hat toward God get your ticket punched type of hoo -ha that is it is so clearly and so obviously not the teaching of The New Testament and that's what the

40:51

Catholic Church condemned if you read That if you read Canon 9 from Trent's decree on justification

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It says that if anyone says by faith alone That we're justified by faith alone meaning that you don't need anything else in order to obtain the grace of justification besides just intellectual faith

41:08

Then that person is to be excommunicated. That's what the term anathema means incidentally in canon law documents now

41:14

Of course to say that all Trent was doing was responding to antinomianism

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Would require us to believe that there were just a whole bunch of antinomians running around that interpreted that way

41:25

And it also requires to mean that they didn't have anything to say about the Protestant Reformation Which of course was what prompted the

41:33

Council of Trent and I think it's a pretty odd understanding I mean if we're gonna say, you know What actually this was what the

41:40

Council Trent thought the reformers were saying and that they were wrong about that They were ignorant and even though they were infallibly ignorant

41:47

They were still an ignorantly infallible or something like that then fine You know if you want to say that but I have the feeling

41:54

That actually this is what they did think was being said and that maybe Trent's anathemas are not just limited in this way

42:03

But they actually had let's put this way Do you think we might be able to find any Roman Catholic writers after the

42:09

Council of Trent who applied with the Council of Trent? Said to Luther and Calvin and the

42:15

Protestant Reformation I think we probably could to but notice it doesn't eliminate the concept of faith alone entirely

42:22

It only eliminates one erroneous Interpretation of it if you have a broader interpretation of faith that includes love faith working by charity faith working by love and all the sacraments and Perpetuatory sacrifices and penances and and and and and doesn't have a problem with that Catholics to use the

42:45

Latin terminology will distinguish between Fides formata Caritata or faith formed by love and fides fide informis or faith not formed by charity not formed by love if by justification sola fide you mean fide informis then

43:05

Catholics or fide informis then Catholics rejected absolutely so do Protestants incidentally, but if you mean justification sola fides fide formata or Justification by formed faith faith formed by love and then

43:19

Catholics have no problem with it Catholics absolutely believe in justification by faith alone in that sense

43:25

James now again What was the purpose of approaching it that way

43:31

I mean? the Jimmy Akin knows the real issues are he knows we're talking about the sacramental system here versus a completed and finished work

43:40

So so I think that big long Let's throw out lots of Latin and lots of stuff about the different ways in which we can use the word faith

43:49

Maybe there is a different. There's a another reason you know behind this wanting to sort of Impress Protestants that Catholics can talk about Bible verses and things like that maybe possibly

44:00

I at least try in my few minutes here to sort of refocus

44:06

Light of Alpha and Omega ministries obviously representing the Protestant position How would you respond to what

44:13

James Akin just said and would you say that the Catholic view as you would articulate it?

44:19

Is within the pillar of orthodoxy or outside the pillar of orthodoxy well the problem? I have is what was just said while certainly mr..

44:27

Akin would be able to defend his position I'm sure quite well I don't think that it gives the whole picture

44:32

And I I think that we've got a problem hearing that we may be focusing so narrowly that we miss the fact that first of all in in Roman Catholic theology justification and Sanctification are are basically the same thing and in Protestant theology

44:48

We say that justification sanctification are linked in such a way They cannot possibly ever be separated, but they must be distinguished from one another now.

44:57

Let me just mention right there I just dismissed from Protestant theology the entire Zane Hodges Wilkins group because I don't consider them to be a part of Protestant theology

45:06

The Reformers all condemned the perspective they present though that they try to pretend That they are presenting sola fide as the

45:15

Reformers presented it that no one Historically could possibly take that as a serious assertion

45:21

I just dismissed them completely from the entire game here, but notice something just in passing I did not interrupt

45:26

Aiken Listen to the conversation here and and see who interrupts who in this second hour where Jimmy Akin?

45:35

Gets much more time anyways Just just keep an eye on that and Rome says much more about justification

45:42

Than just what we have just talked about and I would assert the other things that she says about justification

45:49

Would cause me to make the statement that Sola gratia if what

45:55

Rome means by that is what we find in her theology concerning how one merits eternal life by works done in the state of grace if we define that in light of the doctrine of indulgences in the treasury of merit

46:10

Things that Roman itself teaches in regards these issues We're not speaking the same language that the gratia is not the same thing between the two of us at that point

46:19

We need to be very careful that we don't use terminology And I'm not saying James the attendant do so but that we don't use terminology in such a way as to be

46:26

Confusing I have said many many times the issue has never ever been is grace necessary That was not the issue for the reformers

46:34

The issue has never been is grace necessary the issue has always been is grace

46:40

Sufficient outside of the addition of human works or human merit and that is something that the

46:45

Catholic Church absolutely affirms It is because humans cannot do anything with supernatural value humans cannot make an act of love

46:52

Without God giving us the ability to do that as a special act of grace not something we're doing by our nature according to Catholic theology every single time you

47:04

Supernaturally love someone every single time you do something that pleases God God had to give you the grace on that occasion to enable you to do it

47:14

Okay interruption number one after I got approximately one quarter of the amount of time that he had gotten uninterrupted to make his presentation and secondly again irrelevancy alert because Obviously God frequently attempts to give this kind of grace to individuals and it fails to produce the expected result

47:36

Why because man's will does not cooperate synergism Versus Monarchism, it's not like you have the ability in your human nature and so forth.

47:46

You could do it. You could never do it You could never do it based on your human nature And it's not like God gives you sort of a package at the beginning of salvation that then sees you through the rest of you

47:55

Through the rest of your life. That was the position of the semi Pelagians Which the Catholic Church condemned God has to give you the grace to do every single good act you do at the time you do it, which again is irrelevant both justification everything else because Of why well,

48:12

I just said it just pointed it out. That is if God has to give you the grace. Okay, fine That's wonderful. Who is

48:17

God giving this grace to and Does God give this grace to people who do not then utilize it and accomplish?

48:24

What God would like them to do? Well, yeah all the time So this is this is sort of a peanut butter grace perspective.

48:30

We're not talking about effective grace here We're not talking about grace that actually brings about regeneration in in the sense of Salvation itself and all the rest of these things look at what

48:40

Rome does with a doctrine of grace in her sacraments and have noticed Just recently I've been trying to get people to read again indulge

48:47

NTRM doctrina the Apostolic Constitution of the vision of indulgences Post -vatican to document and notice what some of these convert folks have done

48:54

They they read it and they took and they see that the grace spoken of here Allows us to redeem

49:00

Others through our sufferings and and so on and so forth and they see just how far removed from biblical grace

49:07

These things are so what do they do? Oh, that's that's just talking about grace in regards to forgiveness of temporal punishments of sins not about the eternal punishment

49:14

So try to make some sort of type of a division Well to get eternal punishment of sins forgiven.

49:19

What do you have to do? You have to go to a priest you have to get sacerdotal forgiveness. You have to go to the mass

49:26

You have to you have to have the right intention. I mean you start throwing all this stuff in and people start going

49:31

Hey, wait a minute. Yeah, that sounds a little bit beyond what the biblical text was actually talking about So why is that Catholic apologists paying time the biblical text when he's what he's actually trying to defend is so much bigger than that And there's so much being smuggled in here.

49:44

Mmm, maybe you cannot do it of your own But let's notice that what Rome teaches in regards to justification is first of all that Jesus Christ Merited the grace by which we are justified

49:55

That and I'm quoting from Ludwig Ott's fundamentals of Catholic dogma in talking about the uncertainty of the state of grace

50:03

He says that it lies in this that without a special revelation No one can with certainty of faith know whether or not he has fulfilled all the conditions which are necessary for the achieving of justification he goes on to say that grace by which we are justified made may be lost and is lost by every grievous sin and He then says that they feed a one must believe that a just man merits for himself through each good work an increase of sanctifying

50:29

Grace eternal life if he dies in the state of grace and an increase of heavenly glory We must also remember that according to Roman Catholic theology

50:37

There is something known as the Treasury of Merit The Treasury of Merit is made up of the excess merits of Christ and what else?

50:44

It is made up of the excess merits of Mary and the Saints now Immediately you're gonna you're gonna hear this in what

50:52

Jimmy Akins is gonna say in response And it's the same thing that came up with Beckwith as soon as you start talking about this bill

50:57

Well now you see you're going off into all this stuff that really doesn't matter to go. Excuse me.

51:03

It really doesn't matter You see what Roman Catholics want to do is they don't want to go off into those areas where Rome has so clearly violated the biblical text and so clearly adds

51:16

Traditions that had no meaning whatsoever and cannot be substantiated by any meaningful exegesis from the text itself and so now we're gonna run off into the the

51:25

Saris Meritorium and And so you're you're just trying to to get us to get our eyes off of what really unites us all the rest of stuff

51:33

What this stuff does quote -unquote is the same thing that the Marian doctrines do and we're talking about sola scriptura

51:39

They illustrate what Rome is really meaning from her own theology, but it all wants to do that.

51:46

That's a separate issue That's another topic. You're you're talking about no, we're not if if this is day feed a dogma it is directly relevant to what

51:55

Rome means by justification and the vast difference between what they mean by justification and What we mean by justification and so if you want to clarify these things

52:06

So the person who's listening can listen and understand. Okay. Here's what

52:12

Rome says And here's what the people outside of Rome are saying and I can now evaluate these things then you're you have to talk about this

52:20

But if you are really just trying to stretch Rome as far over toward the Bible as possible and stretch the

52:25

Bible as far over Toward Rome as possible so that they look a little bit more alike Well, then you're not gonna want to talk about these things

52:31

And what that means is that there are certain people who die with more merit than they need to merit eternal life

52:39

Now I'm just using Ought here I quoted ought and what we're gonna get here and I'm sort of looking at the waveform here it goes on for almost 10 minutes,

52:51

I think is an incredibly long discussion of congruent and condign merit as If what

52:59

I was saying is that you can merit things outside of great the whole things can be yeah well you need grace to have any true merit before God because we don't end of ourselves have strict merit before God as if somehow any

53:11

Of this is relevant to the whole point that I'm trying to make and that is that my whole merit

53:17

By which I stand before God is Somebody else's it's an alien righteousness trying to get there

53:23

But we're gonna get completely sidetracked with this long lengthy and to be honest with you We're not concerned

53:28

I can get to it today, but not overly exciting discussion of merit that That is going to be given to us by Jimmy Akin here in in just a moment and that excess merit is then made available to the power of the church to those who would draw upon this treasure of merit and I think we all need to step back immediately and Recognize that in light of that and not getting into all the objections.

53:53

I would have to all that entire concept We immediately see that in Roman Catholic theology.

53:59

You have this concept of a person being made Good in God's sight in justification and so that the good works that person does in that state of grace are meritorious before God And are worthy of receiving the gift of eternal the reward of eternal life merited and that a person can actually do more than what?

54:18

Would be required. Well, I have to ask what level would be required to merit eternal life

54:23

Would it not be the perfection that is only ours in Jesus Christ. So the whole idea that's why

54:29

I said earlier I think we need to be very careful if we only read What Trent said about justification we are not getting everything at the

54:36

Roman Catholic Church teaches about justification I'm afraid sometimes that is what ends up happening

54:41

We need to look at all of this and recognize that Rome continues and and mr Akin has written an article about this very subject and has said in in the article

54:50

I have here on the floor next to me The thought that the concept of indulgences the treasure of merit.

54:56

These are they feed a doctrines of the church They they you you as a Catholic do not have the freedom to disbelieve these things now

55:04

I'm sure he would say they're probably Roman Catholics in the United States assume they're going You know this guy had landed from Mars We don't believe that but the simple fact matter is it is the teaching the church and I think those things

55:13

Must be brought in to any any situation where we in the United States right now have a lot of people running around saying we agree

55:21

We all we all agree on solo gratia And I say wait a minute before we jump that ship and say yes, we agree on solo gratia

55:29

I need to look at some of the things you're saying about what grace is Merit so -and -so forth which unfortunately are frequently not brought into the conversation

55:36

Yeah, before I give James Akin a chance to respond to that Let me let me just once again ask the question to you.

55:44

I need a really short answer when I say Does the Roman Catholic position on justification put them outside the pale of orthodoxy from your perspective?

55:55

I'm really kind of prompting you to say something that you said to me off -air a number of times

56:02

Whereby you say that is but a spot on the spectrum or a speck on the spectrum

56:07

And that it is not just that point it is the continuum of Roman Catholic doctrine that you believe puts

56:16

Part of that continuum is on the other side of orthodoxy I would say that the the document that I've referenced indulge

56:22

NTR and doctrinal the apostolic constitution revision indulgences Anyone can go out pick this document up It's in the the paperback edition of Vatican to read it for themselves.

56:31

It's right there. This isn't from the 13th century This is from the 1960s. Okay, this is this is not exactly old stuff

56:37

I would submit that by any standard that I can derive from the New Testament That that falls outside the pale of biblical orthodoxy and in saying that and and I know that you would agree with this

56:48

James Akin He is not judging You this is not about James White judging James Akin or James White judging

56:55

Catholics. It is about Us taking these doctrines and judging them in light of Scripture.

57:01

Yeah. No, I Recognize that that James is not making a personal attack on me there Making a personal judgment about the teaching that is his

57:10

But I cannot make personal judgments about what a person understands or doesn't understand or where their heart is or anything like that But yeah

57:17

I'm talking about Roman Catholicism and I'm saying that Roman Catholicism as Roman Catholicism does not possess the gospel and preaches a false gospel and That is why if a

57:26

Roman Catholic is an heir of salvation It is because they have believed in the true gospel Not the gospel that has been presented to them by the

57:33

Church of Rome and if all they have ever heard is the Roman Catholic Gospel then I cannot begin to believe that that person has eternal life because they haven't been given a true gospel and That takes us back to Galatians That takes us back to the many many many people today who are attempting to find ways of even turning

57:47

Galatians into an ecumenical document That no, you're misunderstanding Paul he was only dealing with you know, the idea that the

57:55

Jews rejected the cross or something like that and That it has nothing to do with Rome and and we all can get together and all is good and wonderful and fine and so on So forth, so we'll continue with both with both

58:08

Ahmed Ddot and Jimmy Akin There's a there's a conjugation for a conjunction putting two different odd things together, but gotta talk about both of them

58:19

Hey, thanks for listening. We will be here Lord willing Thursday afternoon at our regular time here on the dividing line.

58:25

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59:35

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