November 14, 2018 Show with Dr. Jeffrey Waddington on “The Absolute Necessity of The Trinity”

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November 15, 2018

November 14, 2018: Dr. Jeffrey Waddington, stated supply of Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Lansdowne, PA, secretary of the board of the Reformed Forum, panelist at Christ the Center & East of Eden, articles editor for the Confessional Presbyterian Journal, & Adjunct Professor of Systematic Theology @ Westminster Theological Seminary, Glenside, PA, who will address: “The Absolute Necessity of THE TRINITY!”

00:01: Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown
00:08: Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,
00:16: Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
00:23: Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.
00:32: Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
00:46: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
00:56: Now here's our host Chris Arnton. Good afternoon
01:05: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.
01:14: This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 14th day of November 2018 and I'm so delighted to have back on the program a man who has quickly become a very dear friend of mine and I am looking forward to seeing him,
01:33: God willing, at the next Iron Sharpens Iron pastor's luncheon in January where he is going to be joining probably close to a hundred pastors in the
01:45: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania area or more to hear my friend Dr. Tony Costa again who is the keynote speaker at this free pastor's luncheon.
01:54: In fact the the crowd comes from as far away as New York and there were even
02:00: I believe some men from Maryland and Virginia and other parts of the country who traveled to this conference or should
02:08: I say this pastor's luncheon which will be followed by a conference which I will tell you about shortly.
02:13: But Dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington is stated supply, a title I hate as he knows, of Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Lansdowne, Pennsylvania.
02:24: He is also secretary of the board of the Reformed Forum and he is a panelist at Christ the
02:32: Center and East of Eden and he is the articles editor for the
02:38: Confessional Presbyterian Journal and adjunct professor of systematic theology at Westminster Theological Seminary in Glenside, Pennsylvania.
02:47: Today we are going to be addressing the absolute necessity of the Trinity and we're also going to be discussing another conference that's taking place in Virginia.
02:57: Is it Virginia Beach or Virginia? No, Mechanicsville, Virginia. It's in the neighborhood of Richmond.
03:05: Right, Mechanicsville, Virginia. We'll get to that as well in a bit. That's where my friend
03:11: Jeffrey Downs is the pastor, correct? Yes. And he is the orchestrator of that conference but we'll get to all of that as time progresses during the program.
03:21: But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington. Well, brother,
03:28: I'm happy to be here, especially to talk about the significance, I would say, of the
03:35: Trinity, not just the doctrine but the actual God who is the
03:40: God of Scripture that we worship, who is both triune, one in three, three in one.
03:48: Amen. And before we get into that most important topic, tell our listeners again, for those of our listeners especially who have not heard you before on this program or have not heard you on the
03:59: Reformed Forum or on Sermon Audio, tell our listeners about Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Lansdowne, Pennsylvania.
04:07: Sure. Knox OPC in Lansdowne, Pennsylvania is an
04:15: OPC, Orthodox Presbyterian Church congregation. It's been in existence since the denomination was formed.
04:24: So it's one of the early churches to leave the Presbyterian Church USA or PCUSA to form or come into the
04:34: OPC. We worship twice on Sunday morning and evening.
04:42: Sunday school follows the morning worship at 10 30, if they're right, and six o 'clock evening service.
04:53: The congregation is unique in that it is committed to exclusive psalm singing. That's unique in the
04:59: OPC. It wouldn't be unique in the RPCNA. In fact, you wouldn't be in the
05:07: RPCNA if you didn't have exclusive a cappella. Right, that would be correct.
05:16: We actually have an RPCNA congregation not far from us. I know the pastor there.
05:24: He's a PhD student at Westminster. Well, if anybody wants more information about Knox Presbyterian Church in Lansdowne, you can go to knox -presbyterian .org.
05:41: That's Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Lansdowne, Pennsylvania. Interestingly enough, the church where Dr.
05:50: Waddington is going to be speaking in March, God willing, March of 2019, is also a
05:57: Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church, is it not? Or is it just Knox Presbyterian Church? It's actually a PCA church, correct?
06:04: That would be correct. I know that you folks get touchy about those things, so I better be careful to get my facts straight.
06:15: It's a sister denomination. There are not exact confirmed details on everything, but I am really happy.
06:31: I don't know. Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries has confirmed that he will be on that roster.
06:39: Excellent. That'll be great because I've not had the opportunity to meet him in person, so that'll be great.
06:45: If anybody wants to check for updates periodically on the exact dates and times in March, the website for that Knox Reformed Presbyterian Church is the specific title of the church in Mechanicsville, Virginia, where the conference is being held.
07:03: That is KnoxReformedPresbyterian .org, Knox Reformed Presbyterian.
07:10: I'm sorry. Jeff knows before the show started that I've been going through some issues today, so I'm kind of tongue -tied.
07:18: The website is KnoxReformedPres .org, KnoxReformedPres .org.
07:28: And that is the website for Knox Reformed Presbyterian Church, which is actually a PCA church in Mechanicsville, Virginia, and you can get updates.
07:37: So tell us what you know already, even though it's not 100 % confirmed in every detail. What do you know already about this conference coming up?
07:46: Well, I'm looking forward to it. I can tell you the two lectures that I will be giving or address is that one is on the history of Trinitarian theology, and then the other is the
07:59: Trinity in the application of redemption, so in regeneration and sanctification and that kind of thing.
08:07: So I'm excited to be going down to Virginia for this event, and I've known
08:19: Jeff from a distance for quite a number of years now, so that'll be nice to be able to meet him in person finally.
08:29: Yeah, praise God. In fact, I intend, God willing, to be there myself for that. Excellent. So I'm going to make every effort to be there, especially since it's not very far from Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and I am going to be traveling much farther for upcoming conferences in Atlanta and Laurel, Mississippi.
08:51: So I'm looking forward to those two conferences, which will be announced later on as well, one of which involves
08:58: Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries. But let me first off just give our email address right away in case anybody wants to ask a question about the
09:09: Trinity. Our email address here is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.
09:18: Please give us your first name, at least your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
09:27: In a case like this, when we're discussing the Trinity, or should I say the exact theme that we are discussing today, is the absolute necessity of the
09:36: Trinity. Obviously, if you have a disagreement with your own pastor or denomination, or if perhaps you're even a pastor and you have a difference of opinion with your denomination or congregation,
09:51: I can understand why you would want to remain anonymous. But it is interesting as the decades go by, even in the 21st century, there are still
10:04: Bible -believing Christians, even theologically sound Protestants who do have some differences about the understanding of the
10:12: Trinity outside of the main primary definition.
10:18: And perhaps it would be a good idea for you to give us a definition of the
10:23: Trinity. The God of Scripture is one
10:30: God, so we are, Christians are monotheists, but He is three persons in one
10:40: God, so Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all equally God and all completely
10:47: God. In other words, the Father is not one -third of God, the
10:53: Father is the whole Godhead, the Son is the whole Godhead, and the Spirit is the whole
10:59: Godhead. And not only are they, and they mutually, the technical word is co -inhere.
11:10: Like we could use, if you were looking, if God could be illustrated as the
11:15: Venn diagram, you'd have three circles that completely overlap, so it would look like one circle.
11:24: That's a bad analogy. But to give you some idea of what
11:30: I'm getting at, it's not like God is a pizza that you can cut up into three slices, right?
11:40: And understand that this is based upon a biblical revelation, and we will get into,
11:49: I say, the absolute necessity. There are various reasons for that, but this is who
11:56: God is and always has been, and always will be.
12:02: This is the God of Scripture. This is the Christian understanding of who
12:09: God is because he has revealed himself this way. And I remember
12:14: James White telling me, and he, by the way, folks, he wrote an excellent book called
12:20: The Forgotten Trinity, which you should get your hands on. You can get that at cvbbs .com,
12:27: cvbbs .com. You can also get it at Alpha and Omega Ministries website, aomin .org, aomin .org,
12:35: The Forgotten Trinity by Dr. James R. White. But Dr. White told me years ago that in his travels across the
12:46: United States and now very frequently across the world, when he has had the opportunity to sit down with your average church member sitting in the pew, he has noted that over the decades of his own
13:02: Christianity, that he has received troubling definitions of the
13:08: Trinity from your average member of a Baptist or Presbyterian church or other evangelical denomination or fellowship or brotherhood, however you want to classify it, where people give very often a modalistic definition of the
13:31: Trinity, not that they are intentionally doing that. They are just, they are sloppily treating the definition, obviously unconsciously.
13:42: And in fact, you are probably aware of the hilariously funny video that the
13:49: Lutherans, Missouri Synod Lutherans, have created where you have the two Irishmen are grilling
13:56: St. Patrick over a definition for the Trinity, and he continues to give these pictures, these analogies, and the two
14:06: Irishmen keep rebuking him, where he is giving a heretical definition over and over and over again.
14:11: Yes, exactly. Donald and Connell, those are the two Irishmen. But this is a very serious thing, though, because whenever you are declaring something that is a part of what is supposed to be in the
14:31: God -breathed pages of Scripture, especially in the realm of who God is, you have to be careful.
14:39: And there are people that have adopted heretical understandings of the
14:47: Trinity, even if they are in very biblically sound churches, am I right? Yeah, I guess it is a failure on the part of the leadership of the
14:59: Church to engage the people to understand the importance of God's nature as triune, that it is not an optional extra, especially in this day when we interact more so with Muslims.
15:17: And the traditional Jew also has a non -Trinitarian understanding of God, not to mention all the other religions of the world and quasi -Christian cults that are out there.
15:34: Not that we have to become experts in every misunderstanding of the
15:42: Trinity, but that we become sound in the right understanding of the
15:51: Trinity, the biblical understanding of the Trinity and the implications of that in our understanding of who
16:01: God is. Yeah, and one of the things that I have found in conversations with Christians that seems to be a primary error with their understanding of the
16:17: Trinity, whether it is intentional or unintentional, they will speak of the
16:23: Holy Spirit not as if it is a person, or should
16:29: I say he is, a person of the triune Godhead, but it will be described in such a way as if it is more of a force or a power that emanates from the
16:45: Father or Son, but is not described in a way that would be consistent with the understanding that the three persons of the
16:54: Trinity are co -eternal and co -equal. Right. Now think about just one example from the scriptures in Acts chapter 5 with the problem with Ananias and Sapphira.
17:08: Remember, these were a couple in the early church who had property, and they saw that Barnabas had sold property and given the proceeds to the apostles to help those who were needy in the church of Jerusalem, and they wanted to get the praise of men.
17:30: I guess that is the best way to account for it. They sold property and only gave a portion of what they made to the apostles, but they pretended that it was the whole of what they made, and so when they were found out,
17:46: Peter said, you have not lied primarily to me, although you have, you have lied to the
17:53: Holy Spirit. You cannot lie to a force, Chris. You can only lie to a person.
18:00: And so that would be one biblical illustration or place to go if you are saying, how do you know that the
18:10: Holy Spirit is a person distinct from the Father and the Son in the
18:16: Godhead and not just, you know, we do talk about God as spiritual, right?
18:23: And in that, we don't mean to make reference directly to the
18:30: Holy Spirit, but to the whole of the Godhead, that God is spiritual, invisible, and apart from the
18:40: Incarnation, God has no body. But you don't reduce the
18:49: Holy Spirit, the person of the Holy Spirit, to a force. That I would call verging on Star Wars theology.
19:00: I mean, really, think about it, right? And as far as modalism, to give a definition,
19:07: I have heard it defined as if God being one person uses the old -fashioned, from centuries gone by, actors' masks, remember, from perhaps a movie that might depict a play from the 19th century and centuries before that, where you have an actor, if he's the villain, he's just holding a stick with a mask on it.
19:37: Right. And he's got that evil -looking mask, and then he changes the mask to a happy -looking mask, and they have an idea of the
19:47: Trinity or the triune nature of God in a more modalistic understanding that God is trading places with the
19:56: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, depending upon the situation, circumstance, or time, or what have you.
20:02: And that's completely unbiblical. It is. That would be, as you've said, the notion that the
20:09: Father, Son, and Spirit are facades or masks, and not actual persons who subsist in the divine nature.
20:20: So it's very important that we understand that God is one and three.
20:29: We struggle to find analogies, and the reason why we struggle for that is because there aren't any.
20:35: But in the ultimate sense, illustrations can help at a point.
20:42: And this is the humor of the Lutheran satire that you made reference to earlier, is
20:48: Donald and Connell are saying, come on, Patrick. That's moralism,
20:56: Patrick. That's moral. That's right. It's hilarious. Look, go online to YouTube.
21:03: That's where you'll find the Lutheran satires. They're hilarious. God has revealed himself as triune, and it's important—and when
21:15: I talk about the absolute necessity of the Trinity for anything that we say or do about God's world that we happen to live in.
21:30: In other words, we can think of the practical implications of the absolute necessity of the triune
21:38: God, and we can think of that in terms of our salvation, which is a rich and lovely and beautiful thing to have to expound.
21:50: And we also think of the absolute necessity of the Trinity for ascribing any characteristic to anything that we come across in our world, and I can unpack that as we talk about this.
22:11: I find it interesting that even I, when giving a warning about depersonalizing, if that's even a term, the
22:22: Holy Spirit, reducing the Holy Spirit or the understanding of the Holy Spirit to merely a force or power,
22:29: I even inserted the word it a couple of times unconsciously or unintentionally.
22:36: Should we ever refer to the Holy Spirit as it? Should it always be he?
22:43: Well, I think it should always be he. On a rare occasion, in my reading or listening to lectures, we'll hear a person refer to the
22:54: Holy Spirit as it, but in most instances, as I'm reading,
23:01: I realize they don't mean to depersonalize. I think they just didn't get caught. And of course, that kind of thing will not be caught in a spell check in Word on your computer.
23:15: One example, I meant to say one example, present -day example of modalism or what's sometimes called
23:22: Sibelianism, which is the same thing. It's just that Sibelius was an early church heretic.
23:28: Right, which is interesting that Robert Sabin was, and perhaps still is, one of the leading scholarist theologians defending
23:37: Oneness Pentecostalism, aka modalism. Yeah, so you've got a whole denomination, the
23:44: United Pentecostal Church, sometimes as you say,
23:52: Jesus -only, sometimes they refer to the Jesus -only movement. Yeah, they don't like that for themselves, though.
23:58: No, of course, but it's odd. They're Unitarian, but they're Unitarian with regard to the
24:04: Son, right? And again, it's a form of modalism. And perhaps our listeners will be familiar with T .D.
24:13: Jakes. Right. In fact, we are going to be interviewing
24:19: Ed Delcor, God willing, on the 21st of November to give an updated assessment on the person and theology of T .D.
24:30: Jakes because of the fact that many people seem to think that he has repented of his modalist heresy, but there apparently is no real solid evidence of that.
24:40: Yeah, you may remember a few years ago the controversy tied in with what was called the
24:47: Elephant Room, which was, I think, a podcast, right? A video podcast out of—is it
24:57: James MacDonald, if I remember correctly? Yes, I think he's the one that actually—the leader of it.
25:03: And rightly, it stirred up a hornet's nest because they invited
25:09: T .D. Jakes to come and to talk about his view and at the same time kept referring to him as brother, so there was no clear distinction in distinguishing between false teachers and legitimate to God -blessed,
25:30: God -ordained men in leadership. And yeah, it was—I guess you'd say short term, but it's an ongoing problem in the
25:46: Christian world. Anybody that is a civilian has a heretical notion of God, plain and simple.
25:59: Now, some people may be that way by default and not by conviction, and so we do need to be gentle but firm in the way we handle people with misunderstandings, and it can be a teaching moment, right?
26:18: It gives us an opportunity to talk to people and to try to help them.
26:26: We have come to the truth not because we're brilliant. We've come to the truth because God has graced us, right?
26:34: Yes, and by the way, make sure you don't turn your head too far away from whatever microphone you're using because you got muffled there for a second.
26:43: But by the way, if anybody was wondering what that sound effects was about three minutes ago,
26:49: I was pouring myself another delicious cup of blind dog coffee, a little plug for blind dog coffee.
26:57: Blind dog coffee? There is no alcohol in that coffee, it sounds like it, but that is a coffee company that actually, where one of the employees is the mother -in -law of Dr.
27:16: James R. White's son. Oh, okay. Dr. James, or I could say the mother of Dr.
27:25: James R. White's daughter -in -law, Jennifer Thornton, who is the mother of Ellie Mae White, who is the wife of Joshua White.
27:38: But going back to another text before we go to a break,
27:45: Ephesians chapter 4 verse 30, and do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
27:54: Isn't that another indication that this is not a force or a power we are speaking of?
28:00: You cannot grieve a force or power. Right. We are reminded again that the
28:08: Holy Spirit is a person, co -equal with the
28:15: Father and the Son in the Blessed Trinity. It is a wonderful thing.
28:22: John Owen, the great Puritan theologian in England, even taught, and rightly so, that we can have communion and fellowship with each person of the
28:39: Godhead. He even wrote a book about it,
28:45: Communion with God. I think it is in his works, the Banner of Truth works of Owen, the 16 -volume set.
28:53: I think it also might be available as a stand -alone paperback as well.
28:59: Well worth reading, in my opinion. Praise God. We are going to our first break. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of their own, our email address again is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,
29:10: c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Please, as always, give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the
29:21: USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. And the email address again is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,
29:31: c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Don't go away, we'll be right back, God willing, with Dr.
29:36: Jeffrey C. Waddington and more of the absolute necessity of the
29:42: Trinity. Don't go away. Don't go away.
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30:57: That's w for world, n for news, g for group, dot org forward slash podcast.
31:14: James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know
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32:34: That's P -T -L -B -I -B -L -E -R -E -B -I -N -D -I -N -G -D -O -T -C -O -M. Hi, Phil Johnson here.
32:56: I'm executive director of John MacArthur's media ministry, Grace To You, and I'm also an occasional guest on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.
33:04: So I'm delighted that my friend Chris Arnzen and I will be heading down to Atlanta for the
33:10: G3 conference, where I'll be joining James White, Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, Todd Friel, Josh Bice, and a host of other speakers to address the topic of biblical understanding of missions.
33:25: Chris Arnzen and I hope to see you all at this very important conference from January 17th through the 19th.
33:33: Make sure you stop by the Iron Sharpen's Iron exhibitors booth to say hi to Chris. For more details, go to g3conference .com.
33:41: That's g3conference .com. See you there. Hi, I'm Stephan Lindblad, assistant professor of systematic theology at IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.
33:56: I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of God in the churches of our
34:05: Lord Jesus Christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth of Holy Scripture. I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of Scripture, and even the doctrine of the person and work of Jesus Christ.
34:20: Our churches and our people need to be well grounded in these truths. Indeed, future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them to all of God's people.
34:33: If you want to learn more about our program, visit us online at irbsseminary .org.
34:46: Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio here. I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.
34:53: His name is Dan Buttafuoco. Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.
35:01: Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently, he wrote a book titled Consider the
35:07: Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword. Dan also has a master's degree in theology.
35:15: Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states. He represents many
35:21: Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.
35:27: He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more, and in approximately 10 different states.
35:41: In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history. In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the
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35:57: I recommend that you call Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win.
36:04: Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878.
36:12: Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.
36:18: That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. My name is
36:27: Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.
36:33: I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the Doctor of Ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.
36:39: I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.
36:45: It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in midtown
36:51: Manhattan. You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc
36:58: .nyc. They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.
37:06: If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit
37:16: New Covenant Church, NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc
37:23: .nyc. Have a great day. And don't forget to keep praying for Mike Gadosh, who is recovering from very serious and complicated open -heart surgery.
38:41: He is doing very well, thanks be to God, recovering his strength rapidly.
38:48: But he did suffer a severe financial setback being laid up in the hospital.
38:54: So I would urge you, I would plead with you, especially during the holiday season coming up, purchase many books as gifts from www .solid
39:03: -ground -books .com to help replenish the finances that were lost during Mike's being laid up in the hospital and recovering from that very serious open -heart surgery.
39:16: We are now back with our guest today, Dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington, stated Supply of Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Lansdowne, Pennsylvania, and also the
39:25: Adjunct Professor of Systematic Theology at Westminster Theological Seminary in Glenside, Pennsylvania. We are discussing the absolute necessity of the
39:32: Trinity. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.
39:39: Please give us your first name, at least your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the
39:44: USA. Before I have you really get into the heart of the matter of of the absolute necessity of the
39:52: Trinity, I wanted to ask you something about those outside of the
39:58: Reformed faith and something that seems to be universal among non -Calvinists that they would never they would never say this or describe it this way themselves.
40:13: This would be something that they would unconsciously be doing, but the fact that if you are not a believer in particular redemption, definite atonement, substitutionary atonement, even though Arminians use that term these days, that is not historically an
40:39: Arminian concept of the atonement substitution, but you have to, even if you don't recognize it or intend it, you have to put the wills of the
40:53: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit at odds with each other when it comes to the cross.
41:00: Would I be overstating that? Because it seems that in the universal atonement understanding of the death of Christ, you have the
41:10: Son and the Spirit wanting desperately to accomplish something that the Father will not permit them to since most people who they believe are among those for whom
41:22: Christ died are going to hell. So there seems to be a disjointed understanding where you have the
41:29: Son and the Holy Spirit really at odds with the will of the Father. Is that an overstatement in your opinion?
41:35: No, I don't think so. There's a maxim that arose in the early church which
41:41: I think is useful, and that is the external works of God are indivisible.
41:50: That is, it's the Son who becomes incarnate in the
41:56: Lord Jesus Christ, but all three persons of the
42:02: Godhead, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are actively involved in the incarnation.
42:09: They each do different things, if I can put it that way, but they're all involved.
42:17: It's not as if the Father and the Spirit are taking a vacation while the incarnation is going on.
42:23: You think about it. The Father sent the Son, and then the
42:30: Spirit is given to the Son without measure. He's given to this so that the
42:39: Messiah, our Mediator, Christ Jesus, not only is both
42:46: God and man and has a divine nature, but he is also given the
42:53: Holy Spirit to minister to him during the days of his earthly sojourn.
43:02: That's why when he does go to the cross and dies for specific people, not humanity in general, when he dies and then is raised by the glory of the
43:21: Father, and that, I think, is an indirect reference to the Holy Spirit. And then we see elsewhere that the
43:32: Holy Spirit is the one who raises the Son from the grave.
43:37: And then because the Son already possesses the Holy Spirit without measure during the days of his earthly pilgrimage and ministry, he is then able to, and then the
43:51: Spirit is poured out. The Son pours out the
43:57: Spirit on his church on the day of Pentecost. The Father and the Son do this.
44:03: And these missions of God, what we call the sending of the
44:09: Son and then the proceeding of the Spirit from the Father and the Son, these things in history reflect who
44:18: God is and what he is like in an analogical way. In other words, in a human way, we can understand something about who
44:31: God is as to his nature as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Now, you test in the
44:37: Scriptures. We see this in the Old Testament. It's hinted at.
44:45: It's in veiled language. And perhaps one reason why the
44:50: Trinity, the triune nature of God is not revealed as clearly in the Old Testament, although it is there, is because of the rampant polytheism that we see in the ancient world, which is still with us today in different forms.
45:07: So the necessity was to press the unity or the oneness of God in that setting.
45:15: And does not, if I'm not mistaken, Elohim involve in its
45:21: Hebrew roots a plurality of sorts, like a group of one?
45:27: Yes. Elohim, the im ending, is a plural ending in the
45:35: Hebrew. And you think about the creation account, right? Let us make man in our image, right?
45:45: That is a hint that there is a distinction within the Godhead. When you think about God talking to himself, if you will, that's one illustration in the creation account.
46:01: But then you also have the, after the fall, you have God, I believe, setting a boundary so that Adam and Eve can't go back into the garden.
46:15: And they don't want them to have access to the tree of life. And you'll see this.
46:22: And throughout the Old Testament, you see what we call
46:29: Christophanies, which are pre -incarnate appearances of the sun.
46:37: Now, it's debated amongst commentators and scholars as to whether the angel of the
46:45: Lord in the Old Testament is a pre -incarnate Christ. I happen to think he is.
46:52: But that doesn't mean that every time a reference is made to an angel or the angel of the
46:57: Lord, that's a pre -incarnate appearance of Christ. And that's not what's being said.
47:03: For instance, when Moses encounters God in the burning bush, it seems as if it's an angel talking when it is actually.
47:21: The angel goes back and forth. There's a third person reference to God as he, and then there is a reference, then
47:30: God speaks the first person. So you see that, and you see that as an example.
47:39: You're starting to get muffled again, Dr. Wallington. Yeah, I'm hearing a noise when that happens.
47:46: Oh, that's strange. I don't hear any noise on my end, other than the noise coming out of your mouth. Oh, ouch!
47:55: Okay, I see. We're going to make it personal. No, you're a funny guy.
48:10: I think it was B .B. Warfield from old Princeton who said that in the
48:16: Old Testament, you had all the furniture—this is, again, an analogy—you had all the furniture revealing who
48:26: God is. In the New Testament, the room is dimly lit, and then in the
48:33: New Testament, the bright lights are turned all the way up. Warfield must have had a rheostat.
48:43: You know brighter? When I was a kid, one of the exciting things that was installed in the dining room of our home was a rheostat.
48:58: You could control the brightness of your dining room lights. So anyways, that's the illustration that Warfield uses.
49:06: So the New Testament is not revealing something about God that wasn't already present in some sense.
49:13: Again, in the Psalms, when Jesus makes reference to this in his earthly ministry,
49:21: David says, To my Lord. The Lord says, To my Lord. And Jesus gets into how does that work.
49:34: Biblically speaking, you have the baptism of Jesus, where Jesus is at the
49:41: River Jordan, and the Spirit descends upon him in the form of a dove, and then you have the
49:50: Father's voice. You know, Behold my Son, in whom I am well pleased.
49:56: Yeah, that's like a classic biblical illustration of the triune God being present in the same texts.
50:03: Yeah, and the same thing with Paul's apostolic benediction, 1
50:11: Corinthians 13 or 24, something like that, where he pronounces the benediction in the name of the
50:23: Father, Son, and the communion or fellowship of the Holy Spirit. And then you have, but you also,
50:29: I meant to mention, you have the transfiguration where you have Jesus and Peter, James, and John on the
50:37: Holy Mountain, as it's referred to elsewhere in the New Testament, and the
50:44: Shekinah glory descends upon them. And then you hear, and then
50:52: Jesus becomes bright, right? And then you have the
50:57: Father saying, Behold my Son, in whom I am well pleased, listen to him.
51:04: So there, I think the glory is a physical manifestation of the presence of the
51:11: Holy Spirit. So again, you have there a trinity, and throughout the
51:19: Bible, Old and New Testament, there are other illustrations or examples of this going on.
51:26: Well, why did you phrase specifically the theme for our discussion today, the absolute necessity of the
51:36: Trinity? Well, apart from thinking about redemption, you know, how salvation is accomplished and how it is applied,
51:51: I was thinking in terms of the perennial discussion or perennial problem of the, what's sometimes called by philosophers, the one and the many problem.
52:11: By the way, the muffling has returned. Yeah, I'm hearing, it sounds like construction work going on in your studio.
52:20: Oh, there's dead silence in the studio other than when I open my mouth. Yeah, there may be just an internet issue going on there.
52:31: Okay. So that's how I know that the muffling is going to occur because I'm hearing noise.
52:39: That's interesting. So anyways, you were asking me why, so we get to the one and the many problem, or if you think about it, in the world, you have facts or events, historical events, and then you have laws of, say, logic or laws of nature, which apply everywhere.
53:04: So we try to bring these things into connection in some way, universal laws and particular events and facts, what
53:17: Dr. Van Til referred to as the facts and laws. And he argued that the unbeliever cannot account for facts and laws.
53:30: Now, I would say that the laws of nature or laws of logic or laws of mathematics, which are related to that, that these, in fact, are
53:42: God's normal way of acting in the world.
53:47: And then the miraculous are God's way of extraordinarily acting in the world.
53:54: That's a whole other topic. And we think about this all the time,
54:04: Chris, you think about you try to make sense of all the experiences you have in life.
54:13: Trying to make sense of that is an example of trying to bring unity to your thought process.
54:22: Now, and so you see an example of the one and many problem.
54:29: Go to, you're being muffled, aren't I? Yes, you are. Okay, I hear the noise.
54:36: You go to school and you have multiple classes on different topics.
54:42: You might have a history of social studies, you have mathematics, you have English, you have gym, you might have a wood shop or learning how to repair cars, that kind of thing.
54:59: And then your mom and your dad at the dinner table say, tell us about your day.
55:06: Right? And you try to give a single account of your experiences, your multiple experiences throughout the day.
55:16: That is an example of the one and many reality that we deal with.
55:22: And what I'm arguing is that the unity and the diversity that we find ourselves constantly dealing with throughout life is a reflection on a human level of the unity and diversity that exists in God himself.
55:43: Well, let's pick up where you left off there. We're going to our midway break right now, which is the longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1
55:51: FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us this long break because they have to localize Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio to Lake City, Florida, and therefore they have to air their own public service announcements and commercials.
56:03: So during this break, please write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them, because we rely upon their advertising dollars to exist.
56:16: And therefore, if you patronize them frequently, or the more frequently you patronize them,
56:22: I should say, the more likely they are to remain advertising with us. And of course, write down questions for our guest,
56:32: Dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington on the Trinity, and our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,
56:37: C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. I emailed you, I forwarded to you an email from Mary in Cork, Ireland, so I wanted you to have that so you can have these minutes during the break to look over what she has sent and be more prepared to answer her question.
56:59: It's actually, I think, more of a statement than a question. But anyway, we look forward to hearing from you who are listening with your questions at chrisarnsen at gmail .com,
57:09: chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.
57:15: If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
57:20: Don't go away. We'll be right back, God willing, with Dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington. Tired of box store
57:25: Christianity? Of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert? Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship?
57:34: And how about the preaching? Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.
57:40: Well, there's good news. Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience, featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word.
57:50: And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you. Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times.
57:59: 631 -929 -3512. Or check out their website at wrbc .us.
58:07: That's wrbc .us. I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.
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59:00: Got to tell you, for my money, Chris Arnzen's radio program is just the best.
59:06: Iron. Criticizing Iron. I think that's what it's called.
59:12: This is Todd Friel of Wretched Radio and TV with Phil Johnson of Grace to You, inviting everybody to come to the
59:19: G3 conference which has almost instantly become one of the best conferences in the country. And it is.
59:24: It's a great conference. I love it. And Chris Arnzen was there last year. He's been there, I think, every year.
59:30: It's great to see him there. You and I actually did some recordings in the lobby at that place which is a highlight to me.
59:36: So tons of stuff going on. Tons of great speakers. And no matter where you are in the building, you will hear Chris Arnzen's laugh.
59:43: And that's worth the price of admission alone. If you would like to join Phil, me, Chris, and a cavalcade of great preachers, so it should be a cavalcade of great preachers, and me, g3conference .com,
59:56: g3conference .com. Transcribed by https://otter .ai
01:00:28: Transcribed by https://otter .ai
01:01:03: Transcribed by https://otter .ai
01:01:29: or go to batterydepot .com. That's batterydepot .com. I'm Dr.
01:01:36: Gary Kimbrell, Senior Pastor at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi. And I'm hoping that many of you who listen to Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron radio program will join
01:01:46: Chris and me at the Deep South Founders Conference, Thursday, January 24th, through Saturday, January 26th here in Laurel.
01:01:54: If you love God's Word and love to hear it powerfully preached, I can assure you that you will not be disappointed.
01:02:01: Our speakers at the Deep South Founders Conference this year include Rusty Reed, Gerald Henderson, Jason Goodwin, Bobby Crenshaw, and our keynote speaker all the way from Zambia, Dr.
01:02:13: Conrad Mbewe, who has received the nickname the Spurgeon of Africa. And I, for one, believe it's a very accurate description of Brother Conrad.
01:02:23: For more details, go to deepsouthfounders .com. That's deepsouthfounders .com.
01:02:31: I look forward to giving a big Mississippi welcome to many Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners,
01:02:37: January 24th through January 26th. Thank you. Hello, my name is
01:02:44: James Renahan, and I'm the President of IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas. The Word of God says, if a man desires the office of an overseer, he desires a good thing.
01:02:55: Do you have the desire to serve Jesus Christ in pastoral ministry? Twenty years ago, the
01:03:01: Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies at Westminster Seminary California was born. For those two decades, these institutions worked together to train men for ministry in Reformed Baptist churches.
01:03:12: It's been a wonderful partnership. Now we have advanced our school into an independent seminary offering a full program of courses leading to the
01:03:20: Master of Divinity degree. This is IRBS Theological Seminary. We believe that the scriptures of the
01:03:26: Old and New Testaments are the inspired and inerrant Word of God, that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh who came to save sinners by his life, death, and resurrection, and that the task of the church is to honor and serve the triune
01:03:38: God in all things. IRBS Theological Seminary is dedicated by God's grace to preparing godly ministers who will be committed to these doctrines.
01:03:47: Do you sense a call to serve Jesus Christ and his church as a pastor? Why not consider IRBS Theological Seminary?
01:03:54: You'll find more information at irbsseminary .org. That's irbsseminary .org, two
01:04:00: S's in the middle. I hope to hear from you soon. God bless you. My name is Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.
01:04:11: I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.
01:04:16: I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.
01:04:22: It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in Midtown Manhattan.
01:04:29: You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc .nyc.
01:04:38: They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.
01:04:43: If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit
01:04:53: New Covenant Church, NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc
01:05:00: .nyc. Have a great day. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Ironson on Iron Shepard's Iron Radio.
01:05:13: I would like to introduce you to my good friends, Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.
01:05:20: Todd and Patty specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone.
01:05:28: Since 1987, the family owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available
01:05:33: Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices. Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available because frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time.
01:05:46: That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical and otherwise faith insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.
01:05:59: Their website is cvbbs .com. Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work in service to you, the church and to Christ.
01:06:12: That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at cvbbs .com. That's cvbbs .com.
01:06:20: Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. And you can call cvbbs .com
01:06:26: Monday through Friday, 10am to 4 .30pm Eastern Time at 800 -656 -0231.
01:06:33: 800 -656 -0231. Mention Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. And if you purchase a minimum of $50 of merchandise, you will receive absolutely free
01:06:43: Always Reforming by David Engelsma and you will also receive free shipping on your entire order of $50 or more.
01:06:50: They also are currently running a Christmas sale where you will get an additional 10 % off everything in the store.
01:06:59: So just remember that you will get 10 % off everything in the store. Make sure you mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio at cvbbs .com.
01:07:08: We just have a few upcoming special events that we want you to be aware of so that you can attend them.
01:07:15: And most if not all of them are events where I will be, God willing, manning an Iron Sharpen's Iron Exhibitors booth.
01:07:22: So I'm hoping to see you there. First of all, we've got coming up very soon the
01:07:31: Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio Pastors Luncheon. That is going to be
01:07:36: Thursday, January 3rd, 2019 from 11 a .m. to 2 p .m.
01:07:42: at the Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall. It is going to feature my dear friend
01:07:47: Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary and the theme will be announced very soon.
01:08:00: This, unlike all of the other events, is only for men in leadership in the church.
01:08:07: This invitation is one of the rare events that I would hold that is not extended to ladies, neither the wives of pastors or ladies in ministry.
01:08:22: This is exclusively a men's conference and if you would like to attend, it's absolutely free of charge and not only are you going to be fed for free, you're going to leave there with a very heavy sack, maybe two very heavy sacks, of books that have been donated by the vast majority of the major Christian publishers in the
01:08:44: United States and the United Kingdom. Every year they each donate 100 copies of a book that I select from their catalog so that every man in attendance can leave there with a copy each of that particular book and we've got quite a number of publishers doing that, so that's why
01:09:01: I said you'll be leaving with two very heavy sacks and I'm sure that you were quite pleased with the books that you received there the last time you were there,
01:09:09: Dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington, were you not? I was. I was going to say it was a wonderful fellowship. We had
01:09:16: Bill Shishko as the guest. That was what? Was that last year or two years ago? I can't remember.
01:09:21: I can barely remember what I had for breakfast this morning or how to tie my shoes.
01:09:28: I don't even know what's happening to my brain lately, but anyway, chrisorensen at gmail .com
01:09:34: is the email address where you could send a request to be added to the invitation list and it is absolutely free of charge and by the way, we don't sell anything at these luncheons.
01:09:45: This was at the insistence of my late wife Julie, now in glory with Christ for eternity, who started these luncheons in the 1990s and one of her requirements was,
01:09:57: I don't want you selling anything, I don't want you to permit anybody to sell anything, this is a gift to the pastors and therefore the food and all the books are absolutely free.
01:10:08: It was wonderful. The last one that I was at, Brother, very encouraging to the men who attended and the fellowship around the lunch table was a foretaste of our heavenly wedding feast.
01:10:25: Amen. And then immediately following that luncheon from Friday the 4th of January to Sunday the 6th of January, did
01:10:38: I get those numbers right? 4th, 5th, 6th, yes. The Enola Church of God, or should
01:10:46: I say the Enola First Church of God in Enola, Pennsylvania, is hosting a
01:10:51: Bible conference featuring my friend Dr. Tony Costa, who I just mentioned is our keynote speaker at the luncheon.
01:10:57: Dr. Costa is going immediately, the next day of course, to Enola First Church of God where he will begin a conference where everybody is welcome, whether you're a man, woman, or child, and you don't even have to be a
01:11:10: Christian. And this is going to be on the theme, The Greatest Threats to the
01:11:16: Christian Church in North America in the 21st Century. That is the theme of this three -day conference at the
01:11:23: Enola First Church of God, Enola, Pennsylvania, where my dear friend Pastor George Jensen is the pastor.
01:11:30: If you want more details on that conference, which is also free of charge, go to enolachurchofgod .com,
01:11:38: that's E -N -O -L -A -C -H -O -G -D -O -T -C -O -M, which stands for EnolaChurchofGod .com,
01:11:44: EnolaChurchofGod .com. You can also call them at 717 -732 -4253, 717 -732 -4253.
01:11:55: Then, that same month, January of 2019, I'm going to be heading to Atlanta, Georgia, specifically
01:12:02: College Park, Georgia, for the next G3 Conference, which stands for Gospel, Grace, and Glory.
01:12:08: The theme is The Mission of God, A Biblical Understanding of Missions, and I'm going to be there manning an exhibitor's booth once again.
01:12:15: The speakers include Dr. James R. White, John Piper, Stephen J. Lawson, Votie Balcombe, Mark Dever, Conrad M.
01:12:22: Bayway, Tim Chalies, Phil Johnson, Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, Stephen J.
01:12:30: Nichols, the president of Reformation Bible College, the college founded by the late R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, and many more are on that roster.
01:12:39: To register, go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com. The conference is being held from Thursday, January 17th through Sunday, I'm sorry, through Saturday.
01:12:49: Let me start over again. The conference is being held from Thursday, January 17th through Saturday, January 19th, and it is going to be held at the
01:13:00: Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia. There is a special Spanish edition of the conference on Wednesday, January 16th, so tell your
01:13:09: Spanish -speaking and bilingual friends about that, but the English conference is from the 17th through the 19th, and they are expecting between 4 ,000 and 5 ,000 people to attend, so I strongly advise you if you have a church, parachurch ministry, or business, or professional practice, or special event that you want to promote in that crowd of between 4 ,000 and 5 ,000 people, go to g3conference .com
01:13:36: and register not only to attend, but for an exhibitors booth just like the one I will be manning, God willing, and I'm looking forward to it with bated breath, and I love every experience that I've had so far at the
01:13:49: G3 Conference, and it has benefited my radio program enormously, more than I can even describe.
01:13:55: Then coming up from January 24th through the 26th, the
01:14:00: Deep South Founders Conference is being held in Laurel, Mississippi at Bethlehem Baptist Church.
01:14:05: I will be manning an exhibitors booth there as well for the very first time. I've never been to Mississippi before.
01:14:10: I'm looking forward to it. Speakers include, let's see,
01:14:15: Rusty Reed, Gerald Henderson, Jason Goodwin, Bobby Crenshaw, and Dr.
01:14:21: Conrad M. Beyway of Coboata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa, and Chancellor of the
01:14:27: African Christian University. I believe the most powerful preacher on the planet Earth alive in the 21st century.
01:14:32: If you want to register for that conference, go to deepsouthfounders .com, deepsouthfounders .com.
01:14:40: Last but not least, if you love this show, you don't want it to disappear, you love the guests and the topics that we cover very often, we have guests and topics that are not heard anywhere else, you love sharing the
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01:15:47: that is if indeed you really don't want us to disappear. And if you don't have a church home, please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,
01:15:55: because if you are not prayerfully seeking for a church home, if you don't already have one, you are living in rebellion against God, and you need to rectify that situation.
01:16:04: I have lists of faithful churches, biblically faithful churches, all over the world. I've already helped a number of listeners in our audience find churches near them, and I can help you as well,
01:16:13: God willing. So send that email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put, I need a church home or something similar in the subject line.
01:16:19: If you want to advertise with us, whether it is a business, a church, parachurch, ministry, professional practice, or special event, as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we believe here, send me an email that says advertising in the subject line, chrisarnson at gmail .com,
01:16:35: chrisarnson at gmail .com. And now we are back with our guest, Dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington, and you can send in an email with a question for him, if you haven't already, to chrisarnson at gmail .com,
01:16:47: chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, city, and state and country of residence. If you live outside the
01:16:53: USA, please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
01:16:58: And as you know, Dr. Waddington, I, before the break, forwarded an email that we received from Mary in Cork, Ireland.
01:17:06: I did, I have it right here in front of me. And she says, I have two great quotes for you both about the doctrine of the
01:17:12: Trinity. The first is from C .S. Lewis. The Trinity is absurd from a human standpoint that no one would have invented it.
01:17:21: We do not hold the doctrine of the Trinity because it is self -evident or logically cogent.
01:17:26: We hold it because God has revealed this, because God has revealed this is what he is like.
01:17:34: I think there was a little typo there. God has revealed this as what he is like, is probably what it is supposed to say.
01:17:41: As someone has said of this doctrine, try to explain it, you'll lose your mind, but try to deny it and you'll lose your soul.
01:17:49: That's very powerful. Yeah. I was thinking about, I was mulling over this.
01:17:56: It reminded me almost of, I believe it's in the introduction to St. Augustine's work on the
01:18:03: Trinity, which is called On the Trinity or De Trinitate in the Latin. And he talks about there's nothing more rewarding than to ponder or meditate upon the triune nature of God.
01:18:19: But there's also nothing more, I would say, dangerous or fraught with challenge.
01:18:28: And that's the way it is, because God is greater than any of our thoughts about him.
01:18:36: That's not to say that if our thoughts are guided or if our thoughts are conformed to the teaching of God's word, then of course, our thoughts, we're not creating idols.
01:18:51: To be honest, any departure from the truth of God's word is a form of idol -making, as Calvin is frequently cited as saying, that the human mind is a perpetual idol factory.
01:19:10: So when we get our understanding of God wrong, we are in effect creating an idol, maybe a mental idol rather than a metal idol, not made of gold but of your mind, in your mind.
01:19:28: But we want our thinking about God and all of life to be subject to God and his word.
01:19:37: And so in this instance, you know, C .S. Lewis, the brilliant British apologist and professor of English, medieval
01:19:48: English literature, if I remember correctly, medieval literature, good writer. I depart from his theology at times, but here he says, the
01:19:59: Trinity is absurd from a human standpoint. I would say that the triune nature of God defies our human ways of thinking, our categories of thinking, because we don't have, apart from God, there is no other illustration of three persons in one.
01:20:19: And the oneness is not less personal than the three. We also need to be careful that we don't turn the nature of God or the essence of God into some impersonal, abstract thing.
01:20:36: The God is one and he is three. We can talk about God as he rather than they.
01:20:41: And we might be tempted to say they when we're referring to God, but it's he, because the three are all equally
01:20:52: God. And we'll see that in the next quotation. Would you like to read that of Gregory of Nonsianus?
01:20:59: Yeah. This is the, this, this, this, this text, this quote from one of the early church fathers, one of the
01:21:06: Cappadocian fathers, by the way, one of the three, Gregory of Nyssa and Gregory of Nonsianus.
01:21:15: I like my Cappadocian with a sprinkle of cinnamon and whipped cream. So here we go.
01:21:23: This, and by the way, this citation is referenced by John Calvin in his Institutes of the
01:21:29: Christian Religion. When he, when he's talking about the Trinity, no sooner do
01:21:34: I conceive of the one that I am illumined by the splendor of the three, no sooner do that, do
01:21:40: I distinguish them that, that I am carried back to the one. When I think of any one of the three,
01:21:46: I think of him as the whole and my eyes are filled in the greater part of what I am thinking escapes me.
01:21:52: I cannot grasp the greatness of that one so as to attribute a greater greatness to the rest.
01:21:58: When I contemplate the three together, I see but one torch and cannot divide or measure out the undivided light.
01:22:07: So there is an awful lot there in that, that, that wonderful, wonderful observation that this church father makes to basically saying that as soon as I think of the oneness of God, I suddenly go to the three, the
01:22:30: Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. And if I think of the three, I realize that they are one. You see, that's what, and, and we, the temptation will always be, and this is
01:22:41: I think what C .S. Lewis was, one of the things C .S. Lewis was getting at, the temptation will always be to try to make either the oneness or unity or the threeness and try unity to rule over the other.
01:22:56: And we see this in the history of the interpretation of the Trinity. You have the psychological model of the
01:23:04: Trinity, which is advocated to some extent by St. Augustine and his work on the Trinity.
01:23:10: Then you have the social doctrine of the social Trinity, which is basically makes the
01:23:17: Trinity into a committee. And so the unity of the
01:23:22: Trinity is merely a unity of harmony, the kind of unity that we have or ought to have as Christians when we are together with one another.
01:23:33: And so this statement by Gregory of Nazianzus is well known, first of all, and then is cited often.
01:23:45: And it reminds us that we have to do something when we are contemplating the nature of God that in reality we cannot contemplate in its fullness.
01:23:58: The human mind is finite. Now we were created to have fellowship with God. Remember, we come from the hands of God to have fellowship with him.
01:24:07: And we have fellowship with the triune God. Let us make man in our image.
01:24:16: That's not God talking to the angels. There are some scholars who that's how they interpret that plural language.
01:24:24: Let us make man in our image. We were created by God to have communion with him.
01:24:35: And that's the sadness of the fall, right? That's the greatness of the fall is that fellowship, that communion bond was destroyed.
01:24:44: It was shattered. We become alienated, right, from God and from one another.
01:24:51: Anyways, so the Trinity, what both C .S.
01:24:56: Lewis and Gregory of Nazianzus are talking about is the absolute foundation of the world.
01:25:04: So when I say that there's an absolute necessity of the Trinity, I'm speaking both metaphysically, that is about the way the nature of the world, and also epistemologically, that is about how we know what we know.
01:25:21: That the Trinity, the ontological Trinity that is God as he is apart from creation, that is absolutely foundational to anything that we can think or say that explains the world in which we live and the experience that we have, period.
01:25:42: Well, thank you so much, Mary, for that very helpful, or should I say those very helpful illustrations and quotes.
01:25:49: Yeah, those are beautiful. You know, I love studying this, you know, the history of the church's maturity.
01:25:59: We often think of ourselves in sanctification as growing in grace, right, that we mature.
01:26:05: Hopefully, prayerfully, we are further along in the Christian life after 10, 15, 20, 30 plus years than we were at the beginning when we first came to faith in Christ.
01:26:22: That's also true for the church as a whole. In other words, the church has had to wrestle with various aspects of the teaching of God's word, and we think in the early church of the
01:26:34: Arian controversy, which had to do with Christ's divinity, and there are other controversies dealing with the divinity of the
01:26:43: Holy Spirit. You understand, I think, that it is the incarnation of the
01:26:52: Son of God who took to himself a true body and a reasonable soul. It is that, and that actually any argument we use, or almost every argument we use for the divine nature of the
01:27:07: Son also applies to the Holy Spirit and to the Father, of course. As you're reading your
01:27:14: Bible, both the Old and the New Testament, when you see a reference to God, but it doesn't distinguish between the three persons, don't assume that that reference is to the
01:27:26: Father. We've somehow, many of us, I should say, have somehow come to the idea that in the
01:27:37: Old Testament, whenever there's a reference to God, it must be a reference to the Father. Now, there are instances where that's exactly the case, but I think it's better to read your
01:27:48: Bible understanding that it is the triune God who is revealing himself in the pages of the
01:27:56: Scriptures. It is the triune God who acts in history to save a people for himself.
01:28:04: It's the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit working together in eternity past.
01:28:11: They covenanted with one another. That's how we talk. It's an analogous way of thinking.
01:28:18: They covenanted to save a people for themselves. Think of John 17.
01:28:24: Well, think of the whole Gospel of John, but John 17, the high priestly prayer. There the
01:28:31: Son is praying to the Father, and he says, to restore to me the glory that I had with you before the foundations of the world.
01:28:41: Something to that effect. So, we see the personal nature of the persons of the
01:28:49: Trinity. This is who
01:28:54: God is, and our thinking, our speaking, and our acting, all of these things make sense in light of that reality.
01:29:07: All of these things depend upon the triune nature of God. If God were not triune, we would not be able to account for the diversity and the unity that we experience in this world.
01:29:22: And I'm going to ask you a question of a listener. Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania.
01:29:28: I'm going to ask you his question, and then when we return from our final break, you can answer it.
01:29:34: He says, do you believe that an understanding of the Trinity is essential and necessary for salvation?
01:29:42: It seems that the Gospel is a far infinitely easier concept to understand and grasp, even for a child.
01:29:52: However, the Trinity seems to be a very deep and mysterious concept. What do you say about this?
01:29:59: Because you have titled your show, The Absolute Necessity of the Trinity. Are we to believe that those
01:30:06: Jews who came to Christ in the New Testament understood this concept? And are we to expect everyone today to understand this concept in order to be born again?
01:30:18: And we'll have you answer that when we return from the break. Thank you, Harrison in Mechanicsburg.
01:30:25: And if anybody else would like to get in line and have your question asked of and answered by Dr.
01:30:32: Jeffrey C. Waddington, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.
01:30:39: Please give us your first name as well as your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
01:30:48: Don't go away. God willing, we will be right back after these final messages. James White here, co -founder of Alpha and Omega Ministries and occasional guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:31:14: I'm so delighted. My friend Chris Arnson will be heading down to Atlanta for the next G3 Conference from January 17th to the 19th, 2019.
01:31:22: We'll all be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme, A Biblical Understanding of Missions.
01:31:28: Speakers include John Piper, Steve Lawson, Vody Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, Phil Johnson, Josh Bice, yours truly, and many more.
01:31:38: I hope you all join Chris and me for this phenomenal event. For more details, go to g3conference .com.
01:31:45: That's g3conference .com. Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am
01:31:56: I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man,
01:32:03: I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church. We are a
01:32:09: Reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.
01:32:16: We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things.
01:32:24: That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostle's priority, it must not be ours either.
01:32:31: We believe, by God's grace, that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.
01:32:43: If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.
01:32:49: You can call us at 508 -528 -5750. That's 508 -528 -5750.
01:32:56: Or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our TV program entitled
01:33:02: Resting in Grace. You can find us at providencebaptistchurchma .org. That's providencebaptistchurchma .org.
01:33:10: Or even on sermonaudio .com. Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:33:21: James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know
01:33:27: I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.
01:33:34: And besides that, they feel so good. I'm so delighted I discovered Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding.
01:33:41: No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot. Jeffrey Rice of Post Tenebrous Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan.
01:33:51: All his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching.
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01:34:06: Nestle All in 28th edition with a navy blue goat skin inside liner and the electric blue goat skin from a
01:34:12: French tannery used to rebind a Reformation study Bible I used as a gift. The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.
01:34:23: Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.
01:34:34: For more details on Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding, go to ptlbiblerebinding .com.
01:34:41: That's ptlbiblerebinding .com. Linbrook Baptist Church on 225
01:34:52: Earl Avenue in Linbrook, Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century. Our church is far more than a
01:34:58: Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.
01:35:04: It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.
01:35:12: We're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship, play, and together.
01:35:18: Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.
01:35:25: Call Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org.
01:35:34: That's linbrookbaptist .org. Hello, I'm Dr. Gary Kimbrell, Senior Pastor at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi, and I'm hoping that many of you who listen to Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron radio program will join
01:35:46: Chris and me at the Deep South Founders Conference Thursday, January 24th through Saturday, January 26th here in Laurel.
01:35:54: If you love God's Word and love to hear it powerfully preached, I can assure you that you will not be disappointed.
01:36:01: Our speakers at the Deep South Founders Conference this year include Rusty Reed, Gerald Henderson, Jason Goodwin, Bobby Crenshaw, and our keynote speaker all the way from Zambia, Dr.
01:36:12: Conrad Mbewe, who has received the nickname the Spurgeon of Africa, and I for one believe it's a very accurate description of Brother Conrad.
01:36:23: For more details, go to deepsouthfounders .com. That's deepsouthfounders .com.
01:36:31: I look forward to giving a big Mississippi welcome to many Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners
01:36:36: January 24th through January 26th. Thank you. Hi, I'm Stephan Lindblad, Assistant Professor of Systematic Theology at IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.
01:36:51: I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of God in the churches of our
01:36:59: Lord Jesus Christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth of Holy Scripture. I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of Scripture and even the doctrine of the person and work of Jesus Christ.
01:37:15: Our churches and our people need to be well grounded in these truths. Indeed, future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them to all of God's people.
01:37:28: If you want to learn more about our program, visit us online at irbsseminary .org.
01:37:37: My name is Steve Lawson, Founder and President of One Passion Ministries, as well as Teaching Fellow for Ligonier Ministries.
01:37:44: I serve as Professor of Preaching and oversee the Doctor of Ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.
01:37:50: I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.
01:37:56: It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in Midtown Manhattan.
01:38:02: You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc .nyc.
01:38:11: They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.
01:38:17: If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit
01:38:26: New Covenant Church, NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc
01:38:33: .nyc. Have a great day. Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.
01:38:44: I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.
01:38:49: Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.
01:38:56: Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently, he wrote a book titled
01:39:01: Consider the Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword.
01:39:06: Dan also has a master's degree in theology. Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states.
01:39:14: He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.
01:39:22: He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy. And currently, his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more, and in approximately 10 different states.
01:39:35: In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history. In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the
01:39:45: Law Journal. If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state,
01:39:51: I recommend that you call Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win.
01:39:58: Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878.
01:40:06: Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.
01:40:12: That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Listening to Christian radio can be a big gamble spiritually.
01:40:39: Even many of the major Christian networks that include excellent, biblically faithful teachers on their lineup, sadly often also include the worst of doctrinally dangerous heretics.
01:40:50: If you are a lover of the doctrines of grace, you need not fear listening 24 hours a day to firstloveradio .org.
01:40:57: They feature Christ -centered programming from Reformed pastors and teachers you can rely upon for theological soundness and biblical faithfulness, such as Dr.
01:41:07: W .R. Downing, Dr. Peter Masters, Pastor Joe Jackowitz, Pastor Robert Gifford, Al Martin, Edward Delcor, and more.
01:41:17: Firstloveradio .org also livestreams my Iron Trepans Iron Radio program daily.
01:41:22: Please stick around on firstloveradio .org after Iron Trepans Iron Radio is over to continue being blessed by the unwavering proclamation of the gospel of sovereign grace.
01:41:33: Spread the word about firstloveradio .org. Welcome back.
01:41:46: This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes in the next 15 minutes or so, we are going to be continuing our discussion with Dr.
01:41:56: Jeffrey C. Waddington on the theme, The Absolute Necessity of the Trinity. If you would like to join us with a question of your own,
01:42:03: I would do so now because we're rapidly running out of time. And our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com,
01:42:10: chrisarnzen at gmail .com. And Dr. Waddington, our last questioner,
01:42:17: Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania was asking, or is the doctrine of the
01:42:24: Trinity essential for salvation as far as understanding the doctrine?
01:42:31: Well, I mean, that is a good question. The answer, I want to be careful because we are saved by grace through faith and the
01:42:41: Lord Jesus Christ on the Holy Spirit enables us to do so.
01:42:47: It is not based upon our brilliance. And he asked a couple of different questions actually in there.
01:42:59: We want to understand that that the revelation of God has been given in history.
01:43:08: So it's progressive. In other words, not everything, God does not reveal everything about himself or his plan of salvation all at once.
01:43:18: The Bible wasn't dropped complete from heaven into our hands. It was given over time and it is given progressively.
01:43:31: And that means that what it teaches is gains clarity.
01:43:36: It's not a later revelation correcting an earlier defective revelation. It's a later revelation being a completion and a consummation of what was revealed in earlier ages and earlier stages of history.
01:43:53: So whether the Jews in the time of Jesus, when they came to faith in him, had a perfect understanding of the
01:44:00: Trinity, I doubt it. But that's not the point. The point is that, and I was arguing for both the metaphysical and the epistemological necessity, absolute necessity of the
01:44:16: Trinity. So Chris, let me ask you a question. Is God Triune?
01:44:23: Yes, he is. Okay. Then why would any thinking about him in any other way be acceptable ultimately?
01:44:32: I'm not talking about the fact that we as Christians, just like the Jews who came to faith in Christ in the early days of the
01:44:41: New Testament era, they didn't have complete knowledge of anything with regard to God and the
01:44:48: Christian life, right? That came with time. And so the same thing is true with us.
01:44:55: When we come to faith in Christ, we don't know everything up front. I hope that Christians grow in their understanding of the word under the illuminating ministry of the
01:45:10: Holy Spirit. I hope that they grow in their appreciation and love for the
01:45:16: God who has saved us. I hope that they grow in their love for the gospel.
01:45:22: And I hope they grow in their love for their brothers and sisters in Christ. I pray that they grow in their love for the lost and desire to share the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
01:45:36: We don't deny that there's maturing that goes on in the Christian life and that sanctification, that maturation includes our knowledge of the
01:45:50: Bible and the triune God who is the giver of the
01:45:55: Bible. God has been triune from eternity. There is no time when the
01:46:03: Father exists without the Son, exists without the Holy Spirit. There is no time when
01:46:13: God was an undifferentiated monad. God has been triune forever and will be triune forever.
01:46:25: Now, we don't understand all of that at the beginning of the
01:46:31: Christian life. There are some basic things we need to understand. We need to understand that God is holy, that we are sinful, and that Jesus Christ is the answer to that sin problem.
01:46:44: But do we have to have all of our ducks in a row? I'm not going to answer that question.
01:46:51: In fact, the reform scholastics in those theologians who came after the first generation of the reformers would never answer that question.
01:47:03: They said it's not a good idea to answer that question. But here's another question for you,
01:47:09: Chris. Is God limited by our limited understanding of him?
01:47:18: Thankfully, no. Okay. So, I mean, part of the
01:47:24: Christian life is our growing in knowledge of theology.
01:47:31: And if a Christian has been a Christian for years and has not grown in their theology, then they are actually being sinful.
01:47:40: So, I'm not saying you have to understand all these things all at once.
01:47:47: That's silly. That really is silly. And I would ask the gentleman, and it's a good question.
01:47:55: It really gets to the heart of the matter. But what is the gospel that you're believing? And how is it separated from the
01:48:02: Trinity? Right. And of course, we don't know that that's what he's doing.
01:48:10: You're right. But on the other hand, if it was, I'm just trying to show that, in fact, the gospel is the gospel because of the triune nature of God.
01:48:21: The Father sent the Son. The Son was sent.
01:48:27: And then when the Son has completed his earthly ministry, which involved his perfect obedience of the law that he himself, along with the
01:48:39: Father and the Spirit, gave to the people of Israel, he perfectly obeyed it.
01:48:45: And he took upon himself the judgment of our sin when he died on the cross.
01:48:55: He didn't die because he did anything wrong. He died because of our sin.
01:49:02: And then he was buried and raised from the grave for our justification,
01:49:08: Romans 4 .25. And Spirit is the one who raised him along with the
01:49:16: Father. See, there's another Trinitarian text. So when you say, well, it's a simple gospel.
01:49:25: Well, yes, it is simple. You can explain it. But actually—
01:49:35: You're really muffled, brother. I'm here. I'm sorry. I'm hearing noise at my end. Okay.
01:49:41: Well, I think you adequately answered— I mean, it's a good question.
01:49:50: But the gospel can be put simply—I can't, you know, we can't—none of us can say everything that needs to be said all at once, right?
01:49:58: And none of us, even the most brilliant minds within Christendom and in the annals of history could ever say,
01:50:07: I have come to fully comprehend and understand the Trinity and the hypostatic union.
01:50:14: And I mean, if we could understand these things fully, we would be God. Yeah, that's right.
01:50:19: And think about it. In the new heavens and the new earth, in the glorious consummation of everything that God is doing in history and redemption, when that comes, we will be spending eternity.
01:50:33: We're going to be growing and maturing in heaven and in the new heavens and new earth. I think we have an understanding of heaven, like we're going to get there and, you know, our sanctification ends somehow.
01:50:46: We won't have to deal with sin, so it will change radically in that sense. But there's still,
01:50:53: I think, in heaven, we will grow in our love and understanding of God and of each other.
01:51:01: That's just—that's a wonderful thing. We're supposed to be practicing that on earth in this life, but it is something we will be doing in the new heavens and the new earth.
01:51:12: So, it's great. God far exceeds our comprehension and understanding, but on the other hand, what he has revealed about himself is absolutely true.
01:51:26: Now, let me ask you a question that really involves Harrison McKenningsburg's question.
01:51:32: I think that this applies not only to his specific question, but also to those who might temporarily be deceived with a false gospel.
01:51:46: There seems to be, if you go to the Book of Galatians, there seems to be—and
01:51:53: I know that my listeners have heard me say this before, so I'm sorry if I'm being redundant here or repetitive—the
01:52:01: Apostle Paul in the Book of Galatians was harsh in his condemnation towards the
01:52:09: Judaizers who were leaders. They were seducers into heresy.
01:52:17: I think that there may be a difference between somebody who is actually openly opposing and attacking and trying to destroy the true gospel and, for that matter, the
01:52:30: Trinity, even though that's not in the text of Galatians, but I think we could apply it. There's a difference between a
01:52:36: T .D. Jakes, or even more so, since T .D. Jakes is kind of quiet about this issue, somebody who's a militant
01:52:44: United Pentecostal Church international pastor or college professor. There's something different about that person than the person in the pew that's been temporarily duped, because you even have the
01:52:57: Apostle Paul calling the Galatians his brethren in the text. Right. So do you agree with that?
01:53:03: Yeah. Obviously, as James tells us, teachers will be held to a higher standard, and so there is a difference between one who happens in God's providence to be in a situation where he or she is taught a false, erroneous doctrine.
01:53:26: That person may be a true believer in Christ, or among the elect who has not yet come to faith in Christ, but will eventually, because all those who are elect will believe on the
01:53:40: Lord Jesus Christ. So there is going to be a difference in accountability.
01:53:51: And so, yeah, you see a difference in the way Paul handles the Judaizers and Galatians, over against how he handles other erroneous issues or problems in the early church, like in Corinth.
01:54:05: Corinth is the poster child of immature church congregations, right?
01:54:14: If you want an example of that, there you have it in Corinth. And Paul there refers to them as saints, that is, those who are set apart to a holy
01:54:26: God for his purposes. So yeah, there is a difference.
01:54:32: And our practices in how we ordain men to the ministry reflects that, or to the eldership, or to be a deacon.
01:54:46: Right? I mean, we train and we examine men for positions of leadership in the church.
01:54:55: And so there is an expectation that what a teacher, a leader in the church will have a better grasp of the teaching of God's Word than, say, the average person in the pew.
01:55:18: Although I would argue that it is our goal to bring everyone to the fullness of the stature of the
01:55:27: Lord Jesus Christ. Yeah, I hear that noise again. Yeah. Well, we have a
01:55:32: Christian in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who says, how do you respond to people who say that no one would ever come up with the understanding of the
01:55:44: Trinity merely by relying upon the Bible? They would have to go to the creeds and councils of the
01:55:51: Catholic Church. Well, first of all, I don't have a problem with going to creeds and councils.
01:55:57: So you see, I don't give them divine, the same kind of authority.
01:56:03: They're not all equally sound. Right. I mean, if you look at which council, right there where you have the ecumenical councils,
01:56:10: I mean, the Roman Catholic Church refers to Trent as an ecumenical council,
01:56:15: I believe. It was certainly considered a council, you know, anathematizing all those who believe in justification by grace through faith alone in Christ alone, which puts us in a bind in their thinking, right?
01:56:30: It gloriously frees us to believe the gospel, on the other hand.
01:56:36: The councils cannot be our ultimate authority, though, because— But they do help us to understand—
01:56:43: Just like in Acts 8, when we have in verse 29, the
01:56:49: Spirit said to Philip, go up and join this chariot. That's the chariot where the eunuch was. Philip ran up and heard him reading
01:56:55: Isaiah the prophet and said, do you understand what you're reading? And he, the eunuch, said, well, how could
01:57:01: I unless someone guides me? So there you have the need of a guide. That's in the scriptures.
01:57:15: He mandates that the churches have leaders and teachers, and not everybody can do that. Right. Now, the answer to that question is, it seems to assume that the
01:57:26: Holy Spirit only began working in the church with me, or at least it sounds that way.
01:57:35: The Holy Spirit has been working with the church since the fall, okay? I'm a
01:57:43: Presbyterian, so I believe that the church—you know, I'm not dispensational, so I believe that the church began after the fall in the garden in Genesis 3 .15,
01:57:53: and reaches—gets progressively maturer, if I could put it that way, when
01:58:03: Abraham—with the flood, with Noah, with the calling out of Abraham, etc.,
01:58:09: the establishment of the children of the nation of Israel as God's holy people, the giving of the law through Moses, and then you have the development of the monarchy, and you have the wonderful golden age of David and Solomon, and then you have the divided monarchy, and then you divided
01:58:28: Israel, and then you have the exile, and then you have the coming of Christ. Remind me of the question—
01:58:42: Well, we're actually out of time. It was basically how—the cults always say that you would never get the concept of the
01:58:48: Trinity out of the Bible. I obviously don't believe that. That's not true. We've already made reference to several places in the
01:58:56: Bible, Old and New Testament. So exactly where did it come from? I mean,
01:59:02: I know I'm going to be dealing with the history of the doctrine of the Trinity at the conference in Mechanicsville, Let me give the website for that church.
01:59:10: That is the Reformed—the Knox Reformed Presbyterian Church of Mechanicsville, Virginia.
01:59:18: The website is KnoxReformedPres .org. KnoxReformedPres .org.
01:59:25: If you want more information about the church where my guest is the pastor, or should I say the state of supply,
01:59:31: Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Lansdowne, Pennsylvania, go to Knox -Presbyterian .org.
01:59:38: Knox -Presbyterian .org. And Dr. Jeffrey C. Wallington, it's always a joy to have you on the show.
01:59:44: I look forward to your frequent return in the very near future. Thank you for having me.
01:59:49: And I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater