November 14, 2018 Show with Dr. Jeffrey Waddington on “The Absolute Necessity of The Trinity”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arnson.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth

who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this

14th day of November, 2018.

And I'm so delighted to have back on the program a man who has quickly become a very dear friend of

mine, and I am looking forward to seeing him, God willing, at the next Iron Sharpens

Iron pastor's luncheon in January where he is going to be joining

probably close to a hundred pastors in the Cumberland County, Pennsylvania area or more

to hear my friend Dr. Tony Costa again, who is the keynote speaker at this free pastor's

luncheon.

In fact, the crowd comes from as far away as New York, and there were

even, I believe, some men from Maryland and Virginia and other parts of the country who traveled to

this conference or should I say this pastor's luncheon, which will be followed by a conference which I will

tell you about shortly.

But Dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington is stated supply, a title I hate as he knows,

of Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Lansdowne, Pennsylvania.

He is also secretary of the board of the Reformed Forum, and he is a

panelist at Christ the Center and East of Eden, and he is the

articles editor for the Confessional Presbyterian Journal and adjunct professor of

systematic theology at Westminster Theological Seminary in Glenside, Pennsylvania.

Today we are going to be addressing the absolute necessity of the Trinity, and we're also going to be

discussing another conference that's taking place in Virginia, is it Virginia Beach or

Virginia?

No, it's Mechanicsville, Virginia.

It's in the neighborhood of Richmond.

Right, Mechanicsville, Virginia.

We'll get to that as well in a bit.

That's where my friend Jeffrey Downs is the pastor, correct?

Yes.

And he is the orchestrator of that conference, but we'll get to all of that as time progresses during the program.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington.

Well, brother, I'm happy to be here, especially to talk about the significance, I would

say, of the Trinity, not just the doctrine, but the actual God

who is the God of Scripture that we worship, who is both triune, one in

three, three in one.

Amen.

And before we get into that most important topic, tell our listeners again, for those of our

listeners especially who have not heard you before on this program or have not heard you on the Reformed Forum

or on Sermon Audio, tell our listeners about Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Lansdowne, Pennsylvania.

Sure.

Knox OPC in Lansdowne, Pennsylvania is

an OPC, Orthodox Presbyterian Church congregation.

It's been in existence since the denomination was formed.

So it's one of the early churches to leave the Presbyterian Church USA

or PCUSA to form or come into the OPC.

We worship twice on Sunday morning and evening.

Sunday school follows the morning worship at 10, 30, if they're

right, and six o 'clock evening service.

We are, the congregation is unique in that it is committed to exclusive psalm singing.

That's unique in the OPC.

It wouldn't be unique in the RPCNA.

In fact, you wouldn't be in the RPCNA if you didn't have exclusive a cappella.

Right, right, right.

That would be, that would be correct.

And we actually have an RPCNA congregation not far from us, and I know the

pastor there, quite a fine, he's a PhD student at Westminster.

Well, if anybody wants more information about Knox Presbyterian Church in

Lansdowne, Pennsylvania, you can go to knox -presbyterian .org.

Knox -presbyterian .org, that's Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Lansdowne, Pennsylvania.

And interestingly enough, the church where Dr. Waddington

is going to be speaking in March, God willing, March of 2019, is also

a Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church, is it not?

Or is it just Knox Presbyterian Church?

It's actually a PCA church, correct?

That would be correct.

Yeah, and I know that you folks get touchy about those things, so I better

be careful.

To get my facts straight.

You know, it's a sister denomination, but yeah.

And there are not exact confirmed details

on everything, but I am really happy, I don't even know if you know this, but my friend since

1995, Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries has confirmed that he will be

on that roster.

Excellent.

That'll be great because I've not had the opportunity to meet him in person, so that'll.

Be great.

And if anybody wants to check for updates periodically on the exact

dates and times in March, but the website for that Knox Reformed

Presbyterian Church is the specific title of the church in Mechanicsville, Virginia, where the conference is being held.

That is knoxreformedpresbyterian .org, Knox Reformed Presbyterian.

I'm sorry.

I'm really, Jeff knows before the show started that I've been going through some issues today, so I'm kind of like

tongue -tied.

The website is knoxreformedpres .org,

knoxreformedpres .org, and

that is the website for Knox Reformed Presbyterian Church, which is actually a PCA church in

Mechanicsville, Virginia, and you could get updates.

So tell us what you know already, even though it's not 100 % confirmed in every detail.

What do you know already about this conference coming up?

Well, I'm looking forward to it.

I can tell you the two lectures that I will be giving or addresses.

One is on the history of Trinitarian theology, and then the other is the Trinity in the

application of redemption, so in regeneration and sanctification and

that kind of thing.

So I'm excited to be going

down to Virginia for this event, and I've known

Jeff from a distance for quite a number of years now, so that'll be nice to be

able to meet him in person finally.

Yeah, praise God.

In fact, I intend, God willing, to be there myself for that.

So I'm going to make every effort to be there.

Especially since it's not very far from Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and I am going to be

traveling much farther for upcoming conferences in Atlanta and Laurel,

Mississippi.

So I'm looking forward to those two conferences, which will be announced later on as well, one

of which involves Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

But let me first off just give our email address right away in case

anybody wants to ask a question about the Trinity.

Our email address here is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, at least your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA, and only remain

anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

In a case like this, when we're discussing the Trinity, or should I say the exact theme that we are

discussing today, is the absolute necessity of the Trinity.

Obviously, if you have a disagreement with your own pastor or denomination,

or if perhaps you're even a pastor and you have a difference of opinion with your denomination or congregation,

I can understand why you would want to remain anonymous.

But it is interesting, as the decades go by,

even in the 21st century, there are still Bible -believing Christians, even

theologically sound Protestants, who do have some differences about the understanding of the Trinity

outside of the main primary definition.

Perhaps it would be a good idea for you to give us a definition of the Trinity.

The God of Scripture is one God, so we

are, Christians are monotheists, but He is

three persons in one God, so Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all

equally God, and all completely God.

In other words, the Father is not one -third of God, the Father is the whole Godhead,

the Son is the whole Godhead, and the Spirit is the whole Godhead.

And the technical word is

co -inhere.

If God could be illustrated as the Venn diagram, you'd have three

circles that completely overlap, so it would look like one circle.

That's a bad analogy, but to give you some

idea of what I'm getting at, it's not like God is a pizza that you

can cut up into three slices.

And understand that this is based upon a biblical revelation,

and we will get into, I say, the absolute necessity of there are various

reasons for that.

But this is who God is, and always has been,

and always will be.

This is the God of Scripture.

This is the Christian understanding of who God is.

Because He has revealed Himself this way.

And I remember James White telling me, by the way, folks, he wrote

an excellent book called The Forgotten Trinity, which you should get your hands on.

You can get that at cvbbs .com.

You can also get it at Alpha and Omega Ministries website, aomin

.org, The Forgotten Trinity by Dr. James R. White.

But Dr. White told me years ago

that in his travels across the United States, and now very frequently across the world,

when he has had the opportunity to sit down with your average church member

sitting in the pew, he has noted that over the decades of his own

Christianity, that he has received troubling definitions of the

Trinity from your average member of a Baptist or

Presbyterian church or other evangelical denomination

or fellowship or brotherhood, however you want to classify it, where people give, very

often, a modalistic definition of the Trinity.

Not that they are intentionally doing that.

They are just sloppily treating the definition, obviously

unconsciously.

And in fact, you are probably aware of the hilariously funny video

that the Lutherans, Missouri Synod Lutherans, have created where you have the two Irishmen

grilling St. Patrick over a definition for the Trinity, and he continues to give these

pictures, these analogies, and the two Irishmen keep rebuking him that

he is giving a heretical.

Definition over and over and over again.

Yes, exactly.

Donald and Connell, those are the two.

Irishmen.

But this is a very serious thing, though,

because whenever you are declaring something that is a part

of what is supposed to be in the God -breathed pages of Scripture, especially in the realm of

who God is, you have to be careful.

And there are people that have adopted

heretical understandings of the Trinity, even if they are in very biblically.

Sound churches.

Am I right?

Yeah.

I mean, I guess it is a failure on the part of the leadership of the Church

to engage the people to understand the importance of God's nature as

triune, that it is not an optional extra, especially in this day when

we interact more so with Muslims.

And the traditional Jew also has a non -Trinitarian

understanding of God, not to mention all the other religions of the world

and quasi -Christian cults that are out there, right?

So it is important to—not that we have to become experts in every

misunderstanding of the Trinity, but that we become sound

in our understanding, in the right understanding of the Trinity, the

biblical understanding of the Trinity and the implications

of that in our understanding of who God is.

David.

Yeah.

And one of the things that I have found in conversations with Christians that

seems to be a primary error with their understanding of the Trinity,

whether it is intentional or unintentional, they will speak of the Holy Spirit

not as if it is a person, or should I say he is, a

person of the triune Godhead, but it will be described in such a way

as if it is more of a force or a power

that emanates from the Father or Son, but is not described in a way that

would be consistent with the understanding that the three persons of the Trinity are co

-eternal and co -equal.

Right.

Now, think about just one example from the scriptures in Acts chapter 5

with the problem with Ananias and Sapphira.

Remember, these were a couple in the early church who had property

and they saw that Barnabas had sold property and given the

proceeds to the apostles to help those who were needy in the church of Jerusalem, and they

wanted to get the praise of men.

I guess that is the best way to account for it.

They sold property and only gave a portion of what they made to the

apostles, but they pretended that it was the whole of what they made.

When they were found out, Peter said, you have not lied primarily to me,

although you have, you have lied to the Holy Spirit.

You cannot lie to a force, Chris.

You can only lie to a person.

Right.

That would be one biblical illustration or place

to go if you are saying, well, how do you know that the Holy Spirit is a person distinct from

the Father and the Son in the Godhead?

We do talk about God as spiritual, right?

In that, we do not mean to make reference directly to the Holy Spirit, but to the

whole of the Godhead.

That is, God is spiritual, being invisible,

and apart from the incarnation, God has no body.

But you do not reduce the Holy Spirit, the person of the Holy Spirit, to a

force.

That I would call verging on Star Wars theology.

I mean, really, think about it, right?

And as far as modalism, to give a definition, I have heard it defined as if God

being one person uses the old -fashioned,

from centuries gone by, actor's masks.

Remember from perhaps a movie that might depict a play from the

19th century and centuries before that, where you have an actor, if he

is the villain, he is just holding a stick with a mask on it, and he has got that

evil -looking mask, and then he changes the mask to a happy -looking mask, and

they have an idea of the Trinity or the triune nature of God in a more modalistic

understanding that God is like trading places with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,

depending upon the situation, circumstance, or time, or what have you.

And that is completely unbiblical.

It is.

That would be, as you said, the notion that the Father, Son, and Spirit are facades or masks

and not actual persons who subsist in the divine

nature.

So it is very important that we understand that God is one and three.

We struggle to find analogies, and the reason why we struggle for that is

because there aren't any.

In the ultimate sense, illustrations can help at a point, and this is

the humor of the Lutheran satire that you made reference to earlier, is Donald

and Connell are saying, come on, Patrick.

That's moralism, Patrick.

That's moral.

That's right.

It's hilarious.

Look, go online to YouTube.

That's where you'll find Lutheran satires.

They're hilarious.

God has revealed himself as triune, and it's important, and when I

talk about the absolute necessity of the Trinity for

anything that we say or do about God's world that we happen to live in,

in other words, we can think of the practical implications of the absolute

necessity of the triune God, and we can think of that in terms

of our salvation, which is a rich and lovely and beautiful thing to

have to expound, and we also think of the

absolute necessity of the Trinity for ascribing any

characteristic to anything that we come across in our world,

and I can unpack that as we talk about this.

I find it interesting that even I, when giving a warning about

depersonalizing, if that's even a term, the Holy Spirit, reducing the Holy Spirit or

the understanding of the Holy Spirit to merely a force or power, I even inserted the word it

a couple of times unconsciously or unintentionally.

Should we ever refer to the Holy Spirit as it?

Should it always be he?

Well, I think it should always be he.

On a rare occasion, I will, in my reading or listening to lectures,

will hear a person refer to the Holy Spirit as it, but in most instances,

as I'm reading, I realize they don't mean to depersonalize.

I think it didn't get caught, and of course, that kind of thing will not be caught in a spell

check in Word on your computer.

You know, one example, I meant to say one example, present -day example of

modalism or what's sometimes called Sabellianism, which is the same thing, it's just that

Sabellius was an early.

Church heretic.

Right, which is interesting that Robert Sabin was, and perhaps still is, one of the leading

scholarist theologians defending Oneness Pentecostalism, aka modalism.

Yeah, so you've got a whole denomination, the

United Pentecostal Church, sometimes, as you say, Jesus -only,

and sometimes they refer to the Jesus -only movement.

Yeah, they don't like that for themselves, though.

No, of course, but it's odd.

They're Unitarian, but they're Unitarian with regard to the Son, right?

And again, it's a form of modalism, and perhaps our

listeners will be familiar with T .D.

Jakes.

Right.

In fact, we are going to be interviewing Ed Delcor, Eddie

Delcor, God willing, on the 21st of November to give an updated

assessment on the person and theology of T .D. Jakes because of the fact that many people

seem to think that he has repented of his modalist heresy, but there apparently is no real

solid evidence of that.

Yeah, I remember, you may.

Remember a few years ago, the controversy tied in with what was called the Elephant Room,

yes, which was, I think, a podcast, right?

A video podcast.

Yes, yes.

Out of, by, is it James MacDonald, if I remember correctly?

Yes, I think he's the one that actually, the leader of it.

And it did, rightly, it stirred up a hornet's nest because they

invited T .D. Jakes to come and to talk about his view, and at the same

time kept referring to him as brother, so there was no clear distinction

in distinguishing between false teachers and legitimate to

God -blessed, God -ordained men in leadership.

And yeah, it was, you know, I guess you'd say short -term, but it's an

ongoing problem in the Christian world.

Anybody that is a civilian has a heretical notion

of God, plain and simple.

Now, some people may be that way by default and not by

conviction, and so we do need to be gentle but firm

in the way we handle people with misunderstandings, and it can be a

teaching moment, right?

It gives us an opportunity to talk to people and to

try to help them.

You know, we have come to the truth not because we're brilliant, we've come to the truth because God has graced

us, right?

Yes, and by the way, make sure you don't turn your head too far away from whatever microphone you're using because you

got muffled there for a second.

Oh, okay.

But by the way, if anybody was wondering what that sound effects was about three minutes ago, I was pouring myself

another delicious cup of blind dog coffee, a little plug for blind dog coffee.

Blind dog coffee, is that it?

There is no alcohol in that coffee, it sounds like it, but that is

a coffee company that actually, where one of the employees is the

mother -in -law of Dr. James R. White's son.

Oh, okay.

Dr. James, or I could say the mother of Dr. James R. White's

daughter -in -law, Jennifer Thornton, who is the mother of

Ellie Mae White, who is the wife of Joshua White.

But going back to another text before we go to a break,

Ephesians chapter 4, verse 30, and do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God by

whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Isn't that another indication that this is not a force or a power we are speaking of?

You cannot grieve a force or a power.

Right, and so that we're reminded again that the Holy Spirit

is a person, a co -equal with the

Father and the Son in the blessed Trinity.

It's a wonderful thing.

John Owen, the great Puritan theologian in

England, even taught, and rightly so, that we

can have communion and fellowship with each person of the Godhead.

He even wrote a book about it, Communion with God, and I think it's in his works, the

Banner of Truth works of Owen, the 16 -volume set.

And I think it also might be available as a standalone paperback as well.

Well worth reading, in my opinion.

Praise God.

Well, we're going to our first break.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address again is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please, as always, give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence, and your

country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And the email address again is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Don't go away, we'll be right back, God willing, with Dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington and more of

the absolute necessity of the Trinity.

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We are now back with our guest today, Dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington, stated supply of Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church of

Lansdowne, Pennsylvania, and also the Adjunct Professor of Systematic Theology at Westminster

Theological Seminary in Glenside, Pennsylvania.

We are discussing the absolute necessity of the Trinity.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, at least your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

Before I have you really get into the heart of the matter of the absolute necessity

of the Trinity, I wanted to ask you something about those outside of the

Reformed faith and something that seems to be universal

among non -Calvinists, that they would never say

this or describe it this way themselves.

This would be something that they would unconsciously be doing,

but the fact that if you are not a

believer in particular redemption, definite atonement,

substitutionary atonement, even though Arminians use that term these days, that is not historically an Arminian concept of

the atonement substitution, but you have to, even if you don't recognize it or

intend it, you have to put the wills

of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit at odds with each other when it comes to the cross.

Would I be overstating that?

Because it seems that in the universal atonement understanding of the death of Christ,

you have the Son and the Spirit wanting desperately to accomplish something that the Father

will not permit them to since most people who they believe are

among those for whom Christ died are going to hell.

So there seems to be a disjointed understanding where you have the Son and the Holy

Spirit really at odds with the will of the Father.

Is that an overstatement in your opinion?

No, I don't think so.

There's a maxim that arose in the early Church which I think is useful, and

that is the external works of God are indivisible.

That is, it's the Son who becomes incarnate in the Lord

Jesus Christ, but all three persons of the

Godhead—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—are actively involved in the

incarnation.

Not in that they each do different things, if I can put it that way,

but they're all involved.

It's not as if the Father and the Spirit are taking a vacation while the incarnation is going on.

You know, the Father sent the Son,

and then the Spirit is given to the Son without measure.

He's given to the Son so that the Messiah, our Mediator, Christ

Jesus, not only is both God and man and has

a divine nature, but he is also given the Holy Spirit

to minister to him during the days of his earthly sojourn.

That's why when he does go to the cross and dies

for specific people, not humanity in general,

when he dies and then is raised by the glory of the

Father, and that, I think, is an indirect reference to the Holy Spirit.

And then we see elsewhere that the Holy Spirit is the one who raises the Son

from the grave.

And then because the Son already possesses the Holy Spirit without measure during the days of

his earthly pilgrimage and ministry, he is then able

to—and then the Spirit is poured out, the Son

pours out the Spirit on his church on the day of Pentecost.

The Father and the Son do this.

And these missions of God, what we call the sending of the Son

and then the proceeding of the Spirit from the Father and the Son, these things

in history reflect who God is and what he is like in an

analogical way.

In other words, in a human way, we can

understand something about who God is as to his nature as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Now, in the scriptures, we see this.

In the Old Testament, it's hinted at, it's

in veiled language, and perhaps one reason why the Trinity,

the triune nature of God is not revealed as clearly in the Old Testament, although it is there,

is because of the rampant polytheism that we see in the ancient world,

which is still with us today in different forms.

So the necessity was to press the unity or the oneness of God

in that setting.

And does not, if I'm not mistaken, Elohim involve in it, in its

Hebrew roots, a plurality of sorts, like a group of one?

Yes, Elohim, the im ending is a plural

ending in the Hebrew.

And you think about the creation account, right?

Let us make man in our image, right?

That that is a hint that there is a distinction within the Godhead.

When you think about God talking to himself,

if you will, that's one illustration in the creation account.

But then you also have, after the fall, you have God, I

believe, setting a boundary so that Adam and Eve can't

go back into the garden.

And they don't want them to have access to the tree of life.

And you'll see this, and throughout the Old Testament, you

see what we call Christophanies, which are pre -incarnate

appearances of the sun.

Now, it's debated amongst commentators and scholars as to

whether the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament is a pre -incarnate Christ.

I happen to think he is.

That doesn't mean that every time a reference is made to an angel or the angel of the Lord, that's a pre

-incarnate appearance of Christ.

And that's not what's being said.

For instance, when Moses encounters God in the burning bush,

it seems as if it's an angel talking.

The angel goes back and forth.

There's a third person referenced to God as he, and then there is a reference, then God

speaks to the first person.

So you see that, and you see that as an example.

You're starting to get muffled again, Dr. Wallington.

Yeah, I'm hearing a noise when that happens.

Huh, that's strange.

I don't hear any noise on my end, other than the noise coming out of your mouth.

Oh, ouch!

Okay, I see.

We're going to make it personal.

No, you're a funny guy.

So anyway, you have that old testament.

I think it was B .B. Warfield from old Princeton who said that in the Old Testament, you

had all the furniture—this is, again, an analogy—you had all the

furniture revealing who God is.

And in the New Testament, and the room is dimly lit.

And then in the New Testament, the lights, the bright lights are turned all the way up.

So Warfield must have had a rheostat.

You know what a rheostat is, right?

Where you can dim your lights and make them brighter.

When I was a kid, one of the exciting things that was installed in the

dining room of our home was a rheostat to make—you could control the brightness of your

dining room lights.

So anyways, that's the illustration that Warfield uses.

So the New Testament is not revealing something about God that wasn't already present in

some sense.

Again, in the Psalms, when Jesus makes reference to

this in his earthly ministry, David says to my Lord, right?

The Lord says to my Lord, and Jesus gets into how does that

work?

Biblically speaking, you have the baptism of Jesus, where Jesus is

at the River Jordan, and the Spirit descends

upon him in the form of a dove.

And then you have the Father's voice.

You know, Behold my Son in whom I am well pleased.

Yeah, that's like a classic biblical illustration of the triune God being present in the

same texts.

Yeah, and the same thing with Paul's apostolic

benediction, 1 Corinthians 13 or 24,

something like that, where he

pronounces the benediction in the name of the Father, Son, and the communion or fellowship of the Holy Spirit.

And then you have—but you also, I meant to mention, you have the transfiguration, where you have

Jesus and Peter, James, and John on the Holy Mountain, as it's referred to elsewhere in

the New Testament.

And the Shekinah glory descends upon them,

and then you hear—and then Jesus becomes bright, right?

And then you have the Father saying, Behold my Son in whom I am well pleased.

Listen to him.

And so there, I think the glory is a physical

manifestation of the presence of the Holy Spirit.

So again, you have there a trinity.

And throughout the Bible, Old and New Testament, there are other illustrations or examples of this

going on.

Well, why did you phrase specifically the theme for our discussion today,

the absolute necessity of the Trinity?

Well, this, apart from thinking about redemption,

you know, how salvation is accomplished and how it is

applied, I was thinking in terms of the

perennial discussion or

perennial problem of what's sometimes called by philosophers the one and the many

problem.

By the way, the muffling has returned.

Yeah, I'm hearing—it sounds like construction work going on in your studio.

Oh, there's dead silence in the studio other than when I open my mouth.

Yeah, there may be just an internet issue going on there.

Okay.

So that's how I—okay, that's how I know that the muffling is going to occur because I'm hearing noise.

That's interesting.

So anyways, you were asking me why—so we get to the one and the many

problem, or if you think about it, in the world, you have

facts or events, historical events, and then you have laws of, say,

logic or laws of nature, which apply everywhere.

So we try to bring these things into connection in some way,

universal laws and particular events and

facts, what Dr. Van Til referred to as the facts and laws, and he

argued that the unbeliever cannot account for facts and laws.

Now, I would say that the laws of nature or laws of logic or laws

of mathematics, which are related to that, that these, in fact, are

God's normal way of acting in the world, and then the

miraculous are God's way of extraordinarily acting in the world.

That's a whole other topic.

So the challenge to—and we think about this all the time,

Chris, you think about your—you try to make sense of all the experiences you have, right,

in life.

Trying to make sense of that is an example of trying to bring unity to your thought

process.

Now, and so you see an example of the one and many problem.

Go to—you're being muffled, aren't I?

Yes, you are.

Okay, I hear the noise.

You go to school, and you have multiple classes on different topics.

You might have history of social studies, you have mathematics, you have English, you

have gym, you might have a woodshop

or, you know, learning how to repair cars, that kind of thing.

And then your mom and your dad at the dinner table say, tell us about your day,

right?

And you try to give a single account of your experiences, your multiple

experiences throughout the day.

Okay, that is an example of the one and many reality that we deal with.

And what I'm arguing is that the unity and the diversity

that we find ourselves constantly dealing with throughout life is a reflection on a

human level of the unity and diversity that exists in

God himself.

Well, let's pick up where you left off there.

We're going to our midway break right now, which is the longer than normal break, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake

City, Florida, requires of us this long break because they have to localize Iron Trip and Zion Radio to

Lake City, Florida, and therefore, they have to air their own public service announcements and commercials.

So during this break, please write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more

frequently and successfully patronize them because we rely upon their advertising dollars to exist.

And therefore, if you patronize them frequently, or the more frequently you patronize them, I should

say, the more likely they are going to remain advertising with us.

And of course, write down questions for our guest, Dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington on the Trinity.

And our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

I emailed you, I forwarded to you an email from Mary in

Cork, Ireland.

So I wanted you to have that so you can have these minutes during the break to look over what

she has sent and be more prepared to answer her question.

It's actually, I think, more of a statement than a question.

But anyway, we look forward to hearing from you who are listening with your questions at chrisarnsen at gmail

.com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back, God willing, with Dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington.

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Got to tell you, for my money, Chris Arnzen's radio program is just the best.

Iron.

Criticizing iron.

I think that's what it's called.

This is Todd Friel of Wretched Radio and TV with Phil Johnson of Grace To You, inviting

everybody to come to the G3 conference, which has almost instantly become one of the best conferences in the country.

And it is.

It's a great conference.

I love it.

And Chris Arnzen was there last year.

He's been there.

It's great to see him there.

You and I actually did some recordings in the lobby at that place, which is a highlight.

Tons of stuff going on.

Tons of great speakers.

And no matter where you are in the building, you will hear Chris Arnzen's laugh.

That's worth the price of admission alone.

If you would like to join Phil, me, Chris, and a cavalcade of great preachers, so it should be

a cavalcade of great preachers, and me, g3conference .com, g3conference

.com.

One sure way all Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my

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Hello.

I'm Dr. Gary Kimbrell, Senior Pastor at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi.

And I'm hoping that many of you who listen to Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron radio program will join Chris

and me at the Deep South Founders Conference Thursday, January 24th through Saturday,

January 26th here in Laurel.

If you love God's Word and love to hear it powerfully preached, I can assure you that you will not be disappointed.

Our speakers at the Deep South Founders Conference this year include Rusty Reed, Gerald Henderson, Jason

Goodwin, Bobby Crenshaw, and our keynote speaker all the way from Zambia, Dr. Conrad

Mbewe, who has received the nickname the Spurgeon of Africa.

And I, for one, believe it's a very accurate description of Brother Conrad.

For more details, go to DeepSouthFounders .com.

That's DeepSouthFounders .com.

I look forward to giving a big Mississippi welcome to many Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners

January 24th through January 26th.

Thank you.

Hello, my name is James Renahan, and I'm the president of IRVS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

The Word of God says, if a man desires the office of an overseer, he desires a good thing.

Do you have the desire to serve Jesus Christ in pastoral ministry?

Twenty years ago, the Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies at Westminster Seminary, California.

Was born.

For those two decades, these institutions worked together to train men for ministry in Reformed Baptist

churches.

It's been a wonderful partnership.

Now we have advanced our school into an independent seminary offering a full program of courses leading to

the Master of Divinity degree.

This is IRVS Theological Seminary.

We believe that the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the inspired and inerrant Word of God.

That Jesus Christ is God in the flesh who came to save sinners by his life, death, and.

Resurrection.

And that the task of the church is to honor and serve the triune God in all things.

IRVS Theological Seminary is dedicated by God's grace to preparing godly ministers who will be committed to

these doctrines.

Do you sense a call to serve Jesus Christ and his church as a pastor?

Why not consider IRVS Theological Seminary?

You'll find more information at IRVSseminary .org.

That's IRVSseminary .org, two S's in the middle.

I hope to hear from you soon.

God bless you.

My name is Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier

Ministries.

I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

It's called New Covenant Church, NYC.

They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in midtown Manhattan.

You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www

.ncc .nyc.

They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching,

in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit New Covenant Church, NYC.

Again, their information can be found at www .ncc .nyc.

Have a great day.

Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

I would like to introduce you to my good friends, Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley

Bible Book Service.

Todd and Patty specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them

affordable to everyone.

Since 1987, the family -owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available Christian books

and Bibles at the best possible prices.

Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available because, frankly, much of what

is being printed is not worth your time.

That means you can get to the good stuff faster.

It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and

otherwise faith -insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.

Their website is cvbbs .com.

Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work

in service to you, the Church, and to Christ.

That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at cvbbs .com.

That's cvbbs .com.

Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

And you can call cvbbs .com Monday through Friday, 10 a .m. to 4 .30 p .m. Eastern

Time at 800 -656 -0231.

800 -656 -0231.

Mention.

Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

And if you purchase a minimum of $50 of merchandise, you will receive absolutely free Always

Reforming by David Engelsma, and you'll also receive free shipping on your entire order of $50

or more.

They also are currently running a Christmas sale where you'll get an additional 10 off

everything in the store.

So just remember that you will get 10 % off everything in the store.

Make sure you mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio at cvbbs .com.

We just have a few upcoming special events that we want you to be aware of so that you can

attend them.

And most, if not all, of them are events where I will be, God willing.

Manning and Iron Sharpen's Iron exhibit his booth.

So I'm hoping to see you there.

First of all, we've got coming up very soon.

The Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio pastor's luncheon.

That is going to be Thursday, January 3rd, 2019 from 11am to 2pm

at the Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall.

It is going to feature my dear friend Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam

at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

And the theme will be announced very soon.

This, unlike all of the other events, is only for men in leadership in

the church.

This invitation is one of the rare events that I would hold that is not

extended to ladies, neither the wives of pastors or

ladies in ministry.

This is exclusively a men's conference.

And if you would like to attend, it's absolutely free of charge.

And not only are you going to be fed for free, you're going to leave there with a very heavy sack, maybe two very heavy

sacks, of books that have been donated by the

vast majority of the major Christian publishers in the United States and the United Kingdom.

Every year, they each donate 100 copies of a book that I select from their catalog

so that every man in attendance can leave there with a copy each of that particular book.

And we've got quite a number of publishers doing that.

So that's why I said you'll be leaving with two very heavy sacks.

And I'm sure that you were quite pleased with the books that you received there the last time you were there, Dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington, were you not?

I was.

I was going to say it was a wonderful fellowship.

We had Bill Shishko as the guest.

That was what?

Was that last year or two years ago?

I can't remember.

I can barely remember what I had for breakfast this morning or how to tie my shoes.

I don't even know what's happening to my brain lately.

But anyway, chrisarnson at gmail .com is the email address where you could send

a request to be added to the invitation list.

And it is absolutely free of charge.

And by the way, we don't sell anything at these luncheons.

This was at the insistence of my late wife Julie, now in glory with Christ for

eternity, who started these luncheons in the 1990s.

And one of her requirements was, I don't want you selling anything.

I don't want you to permit anybody to sell anything.

This is a gift to the pastors.

And therefore, the food and all the books are absolutely free.

Yeah, it was wonderful.

The last one that I was at, brother, very encouraging to the men who attended and the

fellowship around the lunch table was a foretaste of our

heavenly wedding feast.

Amen.

And then immediately following that luncheon from Friday, the 4th of

January to Sunday, the 6th of January.

Did I get those numbers right?

4th, 5th, 6th, yes.

The Enola Church of God, or should I say the Enola First Church of God in Enola,

Pennsylvania, is hosting a Bible conference featuring my friend Dr. Tony Costa, who I

just mentioned is our keynote speaker at the luncheon.

Dr. Costa is going immediately the next day, of course, to Enola First Church of God, where he

will begin a conference where everybody is welcome, whether you're a man, woman, or child,

and you don't even have to be a Christian.

And this is going to be on the theme, The Greatest Threats to the Christian Church in North America

in the 21st Century.

That is the theme of this three -day conference at the Enola First Church of God, Enola,

Pennsylvania, where my dear friend Pastor George Jensen is the pastor.

If you want more details on that conference, which is also free of charge, go to

enolachurchofgod .com.

That's e -n -o -l -a -churchofgod .com, which stands for enolachurchofgod .com,

enolachurchofgod .com.

You can also call

them at 717 -732 -4253, 717 -732 -4253.

Then, that same month, January of 2019, I'm going to be heading to Atlanta,

Georgia, specifically College Park, Georgia, for the next G3 conference, which stands for Gospel,

Grace, and Glory.

The theme is The Mission of God, A Biblical Understanding of Missions, and I'm going to be there manning an exhibitor's booth

once again.

The speakers include Dr. James R. White, John Piper, Stephen J. Lawson, Votie Balcombe, Mark Dever,

Conrad M. Bayway, Tim Challies, Phil Johnson, Todd Friel

of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, Stephen J. Nichols, the president of Reformation Bible College, the college

founded by the late R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, and many more are on that roster.

To register, go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com.

The conference is being held from Thursday, January 17th, through Sunday, I'm sorry, through Saturday,

let me start over again.

The conference is being held from Thursday, January 17th, through Saturday, January

19th, and it is going to be held at the Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia.

There is a special Spanish edition of the conference on Wednesday, January 16th, so tell your Spanish -speaking and

bilingual friends about that, but the English conference is from the 17th

through the 19th, and they are expecting between 4 ,000 and 5 ,000 people to attend, so I strongly

advise you if you have a church, parachurch ministry, or business, or professional practice, or special event

that you want to promote in that crowd of between 4 ,000 and 5 ,000 people,

go to g3conference .com and register not only to attend, but for an exhibitor's booth just like the one I will be manning, God

willing.

I'm looking forward to it with bated breath, and I love every

experience that I've had so far at the G3 Conference, and it has benefited my radio program enormously, more

than I can even describe.

Then, coming up from January 24th through the 26th, the Deep South

Founders Conference is being held in Laurel, Mississippi at Bethlehem Baptist Church.

I will be manning an exhibitor's booth there as well for the very first time.

I've never been to Mississippi before.

I'm looking forward to it.

Speakers include, let's see, Rusty Reed, Gerald Henderson,

Jason Goodwin, Bobby Crenshaw, and Dr. Conrad M. Beyway of Coboata Baptist Church in

Lusaka, Zambia, Africa, and Chancellor of the African Christian University, I believe the most powerful preacher on the planet

Earth alive in the 21st century.

If you want to register for that conference, go to deepsouthfounders .com,

deepsouthfounders .com.

Last but not least, if you love this show, you don't want it to disappear, you love the

guests and the topics that we cover very often, we have guests and topics that are not heard anywhere else, you

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ability to obey those two commands, please support Iron Sherpa Design Radio financially

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That is if indeed you really don't want us to disappear.

And if you don't have a church home, please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com because if you are not prayerfully

seeking for a church home, if you don't already have one, you are living in rebellion against God, and you need to

rectify that situation.

I have lists of faithful churches, biblically faithful churches all over the world.

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So send that email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church home or something similar in the subject line.

If you want to advertise with us, whether it is a business, a church, parachurch, ministry, professional

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advertising in the subject line to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And now we are back with our guest, Dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington, and you can send in an email with a

question for him, if you haven't already, to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, city and state and country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private

matter.

And as you know, Dr. Waddington, I, before the break, forwarded an email that we received

from Mary in Cork, Ireland.

I did.

I have it right here in front of me.

And she says, I have two great quotes for you both about the doctrine of the Trinity.

The first is from C .S. Lewis.

The Trinity is absurd from a human standpoint that no one would have invented it.

We do not hold the doctrine of the Trinity because it is self -evident or logically cogent.

We hold it because God has revealed this, because God has revealed this is

what he is like.

I think there was a little typo there.

God has revealed this as what he is like, is probably what it's supposed to say.

As someone has said of this doctrine, try to explain it.

You'll lose your mind, but try to deny it and you'll lose your soul.

That's very powerful.

Yeah, I was thinking about, I was mulling over this.

It reminded me almost of, I believe it's in the introduction to St.

Augustine's work on the Trinity, which is called On the Trinity or De Trinitate

in the Latin.

And he talks about there's nothing more rewarding than to

ponder or meditate upon the triune nature of God.

But there's also nothing more, I would say, dangerous or

fraught with challenge.

And that's the way it is, because God is greater than any of our

thoughts about him.

That's not to say that if our thoughts are guided or if our thoughts

are conformed to the teaching of God's word, then, of course, our

thoughts, we're not creating idols.

To be honest, any departure from the truth of God's word

is a form of idol -making, as Calvin is frequently cited

as saying, that the human mind is a perpetual idol factory.

So when we get our understanding of God wrong, we

are in effect creating an idol, maybe a mental idol rather than a metal

idol, not made of gold, but in your mind.

But we want our thinking about God and all of life to be subject

to God and his word.

And so in this instance, C .S. Lewis, the brilliant British

apologist and professor of English, medieval English literature, if I remember correctly, or medieval

literature, good writer.

I depart from his theology at times, but here he says

the Trinity is absurd from a human standpoint.

I would say that the triune nature of God defies our human ways

of thinking, our categories of thinking, because we don't have, apart from God, there is

no other illustration of three persons in one.

And the oneness is not less personal than the three.

We also need to be careful that we don't turn the nature of God or the essence of God into

some impersonal abstract thing.

God is one and he is three.

We can talk about God as he rather than they.

We might be tempted to say they when we're referring to God, but it's he because

the three are all equally God.

And we'll see that in the next quotation.

Would you like to read that of Gregory of Nonsense?

Yeah, this is the this this this this text, this quote from one of the

early church fathers, one of the Cappadocian fathers, by the way, one of the three Greg of

Gregory of Nyssa and Gregory of Nazianzus.

I like my Cappadocian with a sprinkle of cinnamon and whipped cream.

So here we go.

And by the way, this citation is referenced by John Calvin in his institutes of the Christian religion

when he when he's talking about the Trinity.

No sooner do I conceive of the one that I am illumined by the splendor of the three.

No sooner do I distinguish them that that I am carried back to the one.

When I think of any one of the three, I think of him as the whole and my eyes are filled in the greater part of what I am

thinking escapes me.

I cannot grasp the greatness of that one so as to attribute a greater greatness to the rest.

When I contemplate the three together, I see but one torch and cannot divide or measure out the

undivided light.

So there is an awful lot there in that that that wonderful,

wonderful observation that this church father makes

to basically saying that as soon as I think of the oneness of God, I

suddenly go to the three, the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.

And if I think of the three, I realize that they are one.

And we the temptation will always be and this is, I think, what C .S. Lewis

was one of the C .S. Lewis was getting at.

The temptation will always be to try to make either the oneness or unity

or the threeness and triunity to rule over the other.

And we see this in the history of the interpretation of the Trinity.

You have the psychological model of the Trinity, which is advocated

to some extent by St. Augustine and his work on the Trinity.

Then you have the social doctrine of the social Trinity, which is

basically makes the Trinity into a committee.

And so the unity of the Trinity is merely a unity of harmony, the kind of unity that we

have or ought to have as Christians when we are together with one another.

And so this statement by Gregory of Nazianzus is

well known, first of all, and then is cited often.

And it reminds us that we have to do something when we are contemplating the

nature of God that in reality, we cannot contemplate in its fullness.

The human mind is finite.

Now, we were created to have fellowship with God.

Remember, we come from the hands of God to have fellowship with him.

And we have fellowship with the triune God.

Let us make man in our image.

That's not God talking to the angels.

OK, there are some scholars who that's how they interpret that plural language.

Let us make man in our image.

We were made, we were created by God to have communion with

him.

And that's the sadness of the fall, right?

That's the greatness of the fall is that fellowship, that communion bond

was destroyed.

It was shattered.

We become alienated, right, from God and from one another.

Anyways, so the Trinity, what both C .S. Lewis

and Gregory of Nazianzus are talking about is the absolute

foundation of the world.

So when I say that there's an absolute necessity of the Trinity, I'm speaking both

metaphysically, that is about the way the nature of the world, and also

epistemologically, that is about how we know what we know, that the

Trinity, the ontological Trinity, that is God as he is apart from creation,

that is absolutely foundational to anything that we can think or say

that explains the world in which we live and the experience that we have.

Period.

Well, thank you so much, Mary, for that very helpful, or should I say those very helpful illustrations and

quotes.

Yeah, those are beautiful.

I love studying this, the history of the church's maturity.

We often think of ourselves in sanctification as growing in grace, right?

We mature.

Hopefully, prayerfully, we are further along in the Christian life

after 10, 15, 20, 30 plus years than we were at the beginning

when we first came to faith in Christ.

That's also true for the church as a whole.

In other words, the church has had to wrestle with various aspects of the teaching of God's

word.

We think in the early church of the Arian controversy, which had to do with Christ's divinity,

and there are other controversies dealing with the divinity of the Holy Spirit.

You understand, I think, that it is the

incarnation of the Son of God who took to himself a true body and a reasonable

soul.

It is that actually any argument we use, or almost every

argument we use for the divine nature of the Son also applies to the Holy Spirit

and to the Father, of course.

As you're reading your Bible, both the Old and the New Testament, when you see a reference to God,

but it doesn't distinguish between the three persons, don't assume that that reference is to the Father.

We've somehow—many of us, I should say—have somehow

come to the idea that in the Old Testament, whenever there's a reference to God, it must be a reference to the Father.

Now, there are instances where that's exactly the case, but I think it's better to

read your Bible understanding that it is the triune God who is

revealing himself in the pages of the Scriptures.

It is the triune God who acts in history to save a people for himself.

It's the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit working together in eternity

past.

They covenanted with one another.

That's how we talk.

It's an analogous way of thinking.

They covenanted to save a people for themselves.

Think of John 17.

Well, think of the whole Gospel of John, but John 17, the high priestly prayer.

There, the Son is praying to the Father, and he

says, Restore to me the glory that I had with you before the foundations of the world.

Something to that effect.

So we see the personal nature of the persons of the Trinity.

And this is who God is.

And our thinking, our speaking, and our acting, all

of these things make sense in light of that reality.

All of these things depend upon the triune nature of God.

If God were not triune, we would not be able to account for the diversity and

the unity that we experience in this world.

And I'm going to ask you a question of a listener.

Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania.

I'm going to ask you his question, and then when we return from our final break, you can answer it.

He says, Do you believe that an understanding of the Trinity is essential

and necessary for salvation?

It seems that the Gospel is a far infinitely easier

concept to understand and grasp, even for a child.

However, the Trinity seems to be a very deep and mysterious concept.

What do you say about this?

Because you have titled your show, The Absolute Necessity of the Trinity.

Are we to believe that those Jews who came to Christ in the New Testament

understood this concept?

And are we to expect everyone today to understand this concept in order to be born

again?

And we'll have you answer that when we return from the break.

Thank you, Harrison in Mechanicsburg.

And if anybody else would like to get in line and have your question asked, asked

of and answered by Dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name as well as your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away.

God willing, we will be right back after these final messages.

James White here, co -founder of Alpha and Omega Ministries and occasional guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I'm so delighted.

My friend, Chris Arnson, will be heading down to Atlanta for the next G3 conference from January 17th

to the 19th, 2019, where I'll be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme, A Biblical

Understanding of Missions.

Speakers include John Piper, Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe,

Phil Johnson, Josh Bice, yours truly, and many more.

I hope you all join Chris and me for this phenomenal event.

For more details, go to g3conference .com.

That's g3conference .com.

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God?

Or am I trying to please man?

If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, Pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a Reformed Baptist Church, and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the apostles' priority, it must not be ours either.

We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be

vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and

love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750.

That's 508 -528 -5750.

Or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our TV program entitled,

Resting in Grace.

You can find us at providencebaptistchurchma .org.

That's providencebaptistchurchma .org.

Or even on sermonaudio .com.

Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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Linbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Linbrook, Long Island, is teaching God's timeless truths in

the 21st century.

Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service.

It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied, and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement.

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We're a diverse family of all ages.

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In fellowship, play, and together.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman, and I invite you to come and join us here at

Call Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402.

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Or visit linbrookbaptist .org.

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Hello, I'm Dr. Gary Kimbrell, Senior Pastor at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi.

And I'm hoping that many of you who listen to Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron radio program will join Chris

and me at the Deep South Founders Conference, Thursday, January 24th, through Saturday,

January 26th, here in Laurel.

If you love God's Word and love to hear it powerfully preached, I can assure you that you will not be disappointed.

Our speakers at the Deep South Founders Conference this year include Rusty Reed, Gerald Henderson, Jason

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Mbewe, who has received the nickname the Spurgeon of Africa.

And I, for one, believe it's a very accurate description of Brother Conrad.

For more details, go to deepsouthfounders .com.

That's deepsouthfounders .com.

I look forward to giving a big Mississippi welcome to many Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners,

January 24th through January 26th.

Thank you.

Hi, I'm Stephan Lindblad, Assistant Professor of Systematic Theology at IRBS

Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of

God in the churches of our Lord Jesus Christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth

of Holy Scripture.

I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of Scripture,

and even the doctrine of the person and work of Jesus Christ.

Our churches and our people need to be well grounded in these truths.

Indeed, future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them

to all of God's people.

If you want to learn more about our program, visit us online at irbsseminary .org.

My name is Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier

Ministries.

I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

It's called New Covenant Church, NYC.

They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in midtown Manhattan.

You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www

.ncc .nyc.

They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching,

in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit New Covenant Church, NYC.

Again, their information can be found at www .ncc .nyc.

Have a great day.

Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.

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Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Listening to Christian radio can be a big gamble spiritually.

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes in the next 15 minutes or so, we

are going to be continuing our discussion with Dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington on the

theme, The Absolute Necessity of the Trinity.

If you would like to join us with a question of your own, I would do so now because we're rapidly running out of time.

And our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

And Dr. Waddington, our last questioner, Harrison in

Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, was asking, is the doctrine of the

Trinity essential for salvation as far as understanding the doctrine?

Well, I mean, that is a good question.

The answer, I want to be careful because we are saved by grace.

Through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit enables us to do so.

It is not based upon our brilliance.

And he asked a couple of different questions, actually, in there.

We want to understand that the revelation of

God has been given in history.

So it's progressive.

In other words, not everything.

God does not reveal everything about himself or his plan of salvation all at once.

That the Bible wasn't dropped complete from heaven into our hands.

It was given over time and it is given progressively.

And that means that what it teaches is gains clarity.

It's not a later revelation correcting an earlier defective revelation.

It's a later revelation being a completion and a consummation of what was

revealed in earlier ages and earlier stages of history.

So whether the Jews in the time of Jesus, when they came to faith in him, had a perfect

understanding of the Trinity, I doubt it.

But that's not the point.

The point is that, and I was arguing for both the metaphysical and the epistemological

necessity, absolute necessity of the Trinity.

So, Chris, let me ask you a question.

Is God triune?

Yes, he is.

Okay, then why would any thinking about him in any other way be

acceptable, ultimately?

I'm not talking about the fact that we as Christians, just like the Jews who came to

faith in Christ in the early days of the New Testament era, they didn't have complete knowledge

of anything with regard to God and the Christian life, right?

That came with time.

And so the same thing is true with us.

When we come to faith in Christ, we don't know everything up front.

We grow.

I hope that Christians grow in their understanding of the word under

the illuminating ministry of the Holy Spirit.

I hope that they grow in their appreciation and love for the God who has

saved us.

I hope that they grow in their love for the gospel.

And I hope they grow in their love for their brothers and sisters in Christ.

I pray that they grow in their love for the lost and desire to share the good

news of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

We don't deny that there's maturing that goes on in the Christian life and

that sanctification, that maturation includes our

knowledge of the Bible and the triune God who is the

giver of the Bible.

God has been triune from eternity.

There is no time when the Father exists without the Son, exists without the Holy

Spirit.

There is no time when God was an undifferentiated monad.

God has been triune forever and will be triune

forever.

Now, we don't understand all of that at the beginning of the Christian life.

There are some basic things we need to understand.

We need to understand that God is holy, that we are sinful, and that Jesus

Christ is the answer to that sin problem.

But do we have to have all of our ducks in a row?

I'm not going to answer that question.

In fact, the Reformed scholastics and those theologians who came after

the first generation of the Reformers would never answer that question.

They said it's not a good idea to answer that question.

But here's another question for you, Chris.

Is God limited by our limited understanding of Him?

Thankfully, no.

The part of the Christian life is our growing in knowledge of

theology.

If a Christian has been a Christian for years and has not grown in their theology, then they are actually

being sinful.

I'm not saying you have to understand all these things all at once.

Okay, that's silly.

That really is silly.

And I would ask the gentleman—and it's a good question, it really gets to the heart of the

matter—but what is the gospel that you're believing, and how is it separated from the

Trinity?

Of course, we don't know that that's what he's doing.

You're right, but on the other hand, if it was, I'm just trying to show that, in

fact, the gospel is the gospel because of the triune nature of God.

The Father sent the Son.

The Son was sent.

And then when the Son has completed His earthly ministry, which

involved His perfect obedience of the law that He Himself, along with the

Father and the Spirit, gave to the people of Israel, He perfectly obeyed it,

and He took upon Himself the judgment of

our sin when He died on the cross.

He didn't die because He did anything wrong.

He died because of our sin.

And then He was buried and raised from the grave for our justification,

Romans 4 .25.

And Spirit is the one who raised Him, along with the Father.

See, there's another Trinitarian text.

So when you say, well, it's a simple gospel, well, yes,

it is simple, you can explain it, but actually—.

Are you really muffled, brother?

I'm sorry, I'm hearing noise at my end.

Okay, well, I think you adequately answered—.

It's a good question, but the gospel can be put simply—I

can't, you know, none of us can say everything that needs to be said all at once, right?

And none of us, even the most brilliant minds within Christendom in the annals of

history, could ever say, I have come to fully comprehend

and understand the Trinity and the hypostatic union.

I mean, if we could understand these things fully, we would be God.

Yeah, that's right.

And think about it, in the new heavens and the new earth, in the glorious

consummation of everything that God is doing in history and redemption, when that comes,

we will be spending eternity.

We're going to be growing and maturing in heaven, and in the new heavens and the new earth.

I think we have an understanding of heaven, like we're going to get there and, you know, our

sanctification ends somehow.

We won't have to deal with sin, so it will change radically in that sense.

But there's still, I think, in heaven, we will grow in our love and

understanding of God and of each other.

But that's just, that's a wonderful thing.

We're supposed to be practicing that on earth in this life.

But it is something we will be doing in the new heavens and the new earth.

So it's great.

God far exceeds our comprehension and understanding.

But on the other hand, what he has revealed about himself is absolutely true.

Now, let me ask you a question that really involves Harrison McKenningsburg question.

I think that this applies not only to his specific question, but also

to those who might temporarily be deceived with a false gospel.

There seems to be, if you go to the book of Galatians, there seems to

be, and I know that listeners have heard me say this before, so I'm sorry if I'm being

redundant here or repetitive.

The apostle Paul in the book of Galatians seems to be much more harsh in his

condemnation towards the Judaizers who were leaders.

They were seducers into heresy.

And I think that there may be a difference between somebody who is

actually openly opposing and attacking and trying to destroy the true gospel and,

for that matter, the Trinity, even though that's not in the text of Galatians, but I think we could apply it.

There's a difference between a T .D. Jakes, or even more so, since T .D. Jakes is kind of quiet

about this issue, somebody who is a militant United Pentecostal Church international pastor or

college professor.

There's something different about that person than the person in the pew that's been temporarily duped,

because you even have the apostle Paul calling the Galatians his brethren in the text.

Right.

So do you agree with that?

Yeah, there's obviously, as James tells us, teachers will be held to a higher

standard.

And so there is a difference between one who happens

in God's providence to be in a situation where he or she is taught a false,

erroneous doctrine.

That person may be a true believer in Christ, or among the

elect who has not yet come to faith in Christ, but will eventually, because all those who are

elect will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

So there is going to be a difference in accountability, but there is.

And so, yeah, you see a difference in the way Paul handles the Judaizers and Galatians, say, over

against how he handles other erroneous issues or problems in the early church,

like in Corinth.

You know, Corinth is the poster child of

immature church congregations, right?

If you want an example of that, there you have it in Corinth.

And Paul there refers to them as saints, that is, those who are set apart unto a holy God

for his purposes.

So, yeah, there is a difference.

There is a difference.

And our practices in how we ordain men

to the ministry reflects that, or to the eldership, or to be a

deacon, right?

I mean, we train and we examine men for positions of leadership

in the church.

And so, there is an expectation that

what a teacher, a leader in the church will have a

better grasp of the teaching of God's Word than, say,

the average person in the pew.

Although I would argue that it's our goal to bring everyone

to the fullness of the stature of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Amen.

Yeah, I hear that noise again.

Yeah, well, we have Christian in Suffolk County, Long Island, New

York, who says, how do you respond to people who say that no one would ever come up with the

understanding of the Trinity merely by relying upon the Bible?

They would have to go to the creeds and councils of the Catholic Church.

Well, first of all, I don't have a problem with going to creeds and councils.

So, you see, I don't give them divine, the same kind of authority.

And they're not all equally sound.

Right.

I mean, if you look at which council, right, you have the ecumenical councils.

I mean, the Roman Catholic Church refers to Trent as an ecumenical council, I believe.

It was certainly considered a council, anathematizing all those who believe in justification

by grace through faith alone in Christ alone, which puts us in a bind in

their thinking, right?

It gloriously frees us to believe the gospel, on the other hand.

The councils cannot be our ultimate authority, though, because...

Right.

But they do help us to understand...

Just like in Acts 8, when we have in verse 29, the Spirit said to

Philip, go up and join this chariot.

That's the chariot where the eunuch was.

Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, do you understand what you're reading?

And he, the eunuch, said, well, how could I unless someone guides me?

Right.

There you have the need of a guide.

That's even why in God's own breath and what he teaches infallibly and

inerrantly in the scriptures, he mandates that the churches have leaders and teachers, and not everybody can do that.

Now, the answer to that question is, it seems to assume that

the Holy Spirit only began working in the church with me.

Or at least it sounds that way.

The Holy Spirit has been working with the church since the fall.

Okay.

I'm a Presbyterian, so I believe that the church...

I'm not dispensational, so I believe that the church began after the fall in the garden,

Genesis 3, 15.

And reaches, gets progressively maturer, if I could put

it that way, when Abraham, with the flood, with Noah, with the calling out

of Abraham, et cetera, the establishment of the children of the nation of Israel as God's

holy people, the giving of the law through Moses.

And then you have the development of the monarchy, and you have the wonderful golden age

of David and Solomon.

Then you have the divided monarchy, and then you have divided Israel, and then you have the exile, and then you have the

coming of Christ.

These remind me of the question...

Well, we're actually out of time.

It was basically how the cults always say that you would never get the concept of the Trinity out of the Bible.

I obviously don't believe that.

That's not true.

We've already made reference to several places in the Bible, Old and New Testament.

So exactly where did it come from?

I mean, I know I'm going to be dealing with the history of the doctrine of the Trinity at the conference in Mechanicsville, Virginia.

Let me give the website for that church.

That is the Knox Reformed Presbyterian Church of

Mechanicsville, Virginia.

The website is knoxreformedpres .org.

If you want more information about the church where my guest is the pastor, or should I say the state of supply,

Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Lansdowne, Pennsylvania, go to knox -presbyterian

.org, knox -presbyterian .org.

Dr. Jeffrey C. Wallington, it's always a joy to have you on the show.

I look forward to your frequent return in the very near future.

Thank you for having me.

And I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you

are a sinner.