Apologetics 06a - Theodicy

We are back for class number six. And apologetics, but before we begin tonight. I have a very important announcement if you did not receive the email from me. Then this will be news to you, but if you did you'll already know Dr.. Rich supleta who is going to come and speak to us.

Has had to postpone his trip his father passed away. And he called me yesterday told me. The first he said hey, I could still try to make it. I said don't. I said you know. They're having the funeral next week.

I said don't even try. I said let's just push it back, so he is going to come. Rich is going to come the week after so on your syllabus. Where he would have been speaking that will now be the last night of this class.

He will be speaking the last night of the class next week. Will be what was week eight on your syllabus, which is going on the offensive the off the apologetics is offense is the title of that lesson and so You have to read one more chapter of the book chapter 9.

So that's your reading it was going to be your reading for next week. You were going to have a week off because we're not going to have any reading for to prepare for dr. Supleta's lesson, but this week you'll read chapter 9, and then you're done with the book.

I still encourage you to finish the book. I encourage you to read the chapters. You didn't have to but for the sake of Earning your credit and being you know fulfilling the requirements for this class you have one more chapter to read and that's chapter 9.

And we got it right. Well tonight we are going to continue our What we began last week if you remember last week we? began to address specific objections and How we might respond to those objections two weeks ago?

We looked at the objectors and the objections that we face. And the first one we said was the existence in the nature of God. The second one was the nature and reliability of Scripture and the third was the interpretation and application of Scripture.

The Nature of God and the Problem of Evil

So tonight. We're really looking at the second part of the first Objection the Nature of God because we look last week at the existence of God. I gave you some ways that you might enter into a conversation last week.

I hope was was eminently practical. That was the intention this is how I might engage somebody this is how I might respond to what they say hopefully that was helpful for you because it's what part of what we're doing here and Tonight we're going to do sort of the same thing, but with a new objection and This is actually an objection that is fairly common.

It was actually said verbatim by Neil deGrasse Tyson who identifies himself as I believe he says he's Agnostic. I don't know if he says he's a full-out atheist. But this is what he said. He said if God is all good He is not all powerful.

I want to write this whole thing down if you want to write it down. You can't so long sentence. He says if God is all good He's not all powerful, and if he is all powerful He is not all good, so let's look at it.

Okay. He says if Then this is his syllogism. You know if then is his argument if God is all good He cannot be all Powerful and if God is all powerful He cannot be all good. No, I mean he's the heart of the question is this evil exists.

If God were all good He wouldn't allow evil to exist. Unless he weren't powerful enough to do something about it He could be all good, but impotent. Unable to do Unable to do something about the evil right so so he's either all good But unable to do anything or he's all powerful, but not good enough to do anything but he can't be all good and all powerful because of the existence of Evil that's the argument that is made and it is not unique to Tyson that is a Argument that has been made for a long time in fact if you did your reading this week you will note that dr. Frame Candidly says this is really the hardest Argument that we face as believers in fact he even goes on to say that this has taken many people away from the faith.

This one issue has driven people away because they could not reconcile the Omnipotence of God is all power and the omni benevolence of God his all goodness. All right, so they say they can't have both he can either be off Omnipotent, but not omni benevolent, or he can be omni benevolent, but not omnipotent, but he cannot be both.

That's that's the argument, and that's the argument. We are going to look at tonight. I want to give you though a technical term because I I like for you to know these things. It's important for you to know these things.

The technical term is the term theodicy. In fact I almost entitled tonight's lessons lesson adventures in theodicy. And if that night you may know adventures in Odyssey that was used to this is Huh used to be a radio program adventures in Odyssey well tonight is adventures in theodicy and Theodicy.

Would you gonna ask something? Yeah, you know well, we're gonna get there. That's true. That is true, but we're gonna before we even get to the Objection we're going to talk about this from a Christian perspective.

How do we understand this. Because this is this is something that we do have to deal with as believers. I Mean honestly this this is jumping three steps ahead, but you know you you have a person comes to you their child just died.

How can God be good and my child has died? That's it. I mean as a pastor. I've dealt with that very face to face with people in the room. I've been in the room when several people have died as they were dying and they're they're crying out to God and I'm watching their last breath.

It's very difficult. Okay, so let us not for a moment take tonight light. This is very serious. But theodicy is we need to define our terms of course theos is God. So we have theos is God. DK means justice and So the technical term theodicy is the vindication or the justification of God's goodness in view of the existence of evil.

That's that's the technical term the vindication or the justification of God's goodness in View of the existence of evil now. I want to say something about This particular argument it is amazing how quickly a Conversation can change from a scientific argument to a moral argument.

Person says I don't believe in God. Because I don't think there's enough evidence and you start pointing to evidence. You say the Sun in the sky the moon the stars the earth and everything around us seems to be created for the existence of man and we have a world that that is Purposeful and we have purpose and we have meaning and nobility and and virtue and humanity.

You start saying those things and I say, okay. Okay. Well, I don't believe God Exists because evil exists you see it quits being a scientific argument. It starts being a moral argument. And that's why if you go back last week into our reading dr. Frame addressed the very issue of the moral argument.

Remember he said really his argument his his apologetic. Really rests not so much. I mean he he uses the transcendental argument, but he says he uses even more so the moral because really a lot of time the where people have their issue is Understanding how God can be God in this world be as bad as it is.

So I want us to look at a text if you have your Bible turn with me to Psalm 145. Psalm 145. Go to verse 8, please. It says in verse 8 the Lord is gracious and merciful slow to anger. And abounding in steadfast love the Lord is good to all and his mercy is over all.

That he has made so this text affirms two things about God one it affirms God's Omnipotence, what is what is omnipotence mean? That's right. He is all-powerful. Calls him Lord. Talks about him as creator all that he has made.

Expresses very much his power in this text. But more so than his power it expresses another virtue of his nature. And what is that his omni benevolence? Because it says very clearly That the Lord is good to who?

Good to all. Now you Calvinists out there may argue that all doesn't always mean every single person in the world, however. That and while that is true I would say that in the context. This it is expressing the extent of God's goodness in a universal sense.

So I do think all you know all doesn't always mean every single person in the world. But in this case, I believe it clearly does because it's expressing the extent of God's goodness. Well, we would call this common grace the Matthew chapter 6.

Jesus expresses this clearly when he says that the Lord makes it rain on the just and the unjust and so theologians have always distinguished at least since the Reformation have distinguished between common grace, which is common to all men and Special grace which comes through revelation and through a divine work of God's Spirit.

But it's all grace. No one deserves it. Somebody might say well, it's not grace because it's not saving. So if you want to get super argumentative and call it common mercy even still it would still be goodness even if we don't call it grace because if if you want to only apply grace to Saving and some people now there's sort of a sort of an argument going on within the reform world.

Well, should we call it common grace or should should we not? But it's certainly merciful. Because what do all men deserve? Immediate unfettered wrath. God's. God's wrath is what we deserve, but God doesn't exercise his wrath immediately.

In fact, even the worst of men get to get to enjoy Much goodness in this life, you know. We were Bobby and I were talking about this earlier. We talked about Hitler and we talked about other men. Politicians and stuff and we're just talking about, you know, even the most evil of men enjoy goodness in this world.

You know, they walk out and they see the same sunset you do it. It's beautiful, you know. And they see the same they breathe the same air and the Bible says in him being in God. We live and move and have our being they they have their being and they're living and even they're moving in in him.

And so This is an important reality that God is good to all and one could say. Because we take a presuppositional approach to apologetics that our argument really just ends there. They say God is not good and all-powerful.

We say yes, he is and You know, that's it. Good night. You know because the Bible declares both and that's why I want to look at Psalm 145. The Bible is clearly declaring both as true and it's not apologizing for it it's not seeking to Qualify it in any way.

God is sovereign and he's good. He's powerful and he is benevolent that's Affirmed by Scripture and since we presuppose the truth of Scripture We believe that that is true however. We are seeking not only to know what the Bible says, but we're seeking to be able to defend What we believe and I do think that it is important that if we're going to defend what we believe that we understand it.

Remember when we first started this Series, what did I say? You say you know when you when you come to apologetics. It has a twofold purpose not just to win somebody or to convince somebody or to persuade somebody.

But it's also to reaffirm what we know is true apologetics has a has a personal benefit as well as a benefit to someone Outside and so when we come to this text, we're looking at it from the sense of a you know.

First of all, how do we really justify? Evil in light of or justify God's goodness in light of evil and As I was writing this lesson, you know I wondered how many would know if I went to the average churchgoer not you guys because you're super special you're in this class but if I went to the average person and I asked them how can God be all good and all powerful?

I Imagine I would get all kinds of answers and I doubt a lot of them would be very biblical. In fact Our book our text talked about that a little this week, right talked about different ways people answer and you know The number one answer.

I don't know. Do you remember they want to give me the from the reading? What was the number one answer? Number one answer was free will. Remember remember that he said the number one thing people will say is that God gave us freedom.

And he doesn't seek to intervene in our freedom right. But remember what he also said. That's not satisfactory. That's not really an answer. Because one the Bible doesn't teach libertarian freedom. The Bible doesn't teach that we are outside of God's sovereign control even in our free Agency, we still are Subject to God's sovereignty.

So to use the free will argument that that doesn't really solve the problem. But that's often the one that people use. There's there are others. Remember, he said there were some who would use the argument of well evil doesn't really exist.

You know, that's what the Christian science people say say evil is just an illusion. Remember what he said? It's just a pretty convincing illusion. And he said even if it is an illusion now, he may not have said this in the book.

I know he said this in his lecture because I've been you know doing both he said this he said even if it is an Illusion, it's a bad one and we still experience it. Even if it weren't real we believe it's real and we feel it as if it's real so that argument from the Christian scientists that it's not real is Foolish.

Are you familiar with Christian science in the history at all? I see the confusion. Yeah, they make the argument that the that the evil and things that we face are just illusory they're not real. No, no, no, no Christian science and Scientology are different.

Scientology was L. Ron Hubbard's attempt to create a religion that made him very rich and. Yeah, Christian science. Mary Baker Eddie's Writings additional writings through the scripture and she believes she.

Mary Baker Eddie. Yeah, and. And she isn't it science and health and key to the scriptures in that Christian science. Bobby I know you teach on that at set free the different religion. But yeah, it's she wrote a basically in addition to the Bible.

Addition not addition but addition to the Bible with science and health with key to the scriptures and they call it Christian science. It is neither Christian nor scientific. It's the. It's awesome because they say we're Christian scientists neither one.

Missed it by a mile on both accounts. But anyway. All good. All good. So I Asked you this and that you don't have to answer out loud just in your own heart. Do you believe? No, I thought I was having a heart attack.

I just said my whole body started shaking. I was for a moment. I thought I was a charismatic. That's just how most spoken tongues. I'm just kidding. Do you believe and this is why I say please answer in your own heart.

You don't have to raise your hand or anything, but do you believe God is both all good and all-powerful? We said we affirm the Bible. We said the Bible affirms that but we still need to be able to Say why we believe.

You know, well the Bible says so yes, but how do we understand. When we're face to face with it, how how does that argument boil down when we get faced? Well, we're getting a little ahead of ourselves and you're you're right and I'm not certainly not saying you're you're incorrect.

But I want to I want to talk a little bit before we get to that. Because in in one sense while that is true We are it doesn't make people any less Inquisitive when they're on the tip of the spear. I Know I'm just saying but but but it you know.

Because the issue really and this is where I want to I want to I want to make a point on the board. The issue really deals with the subject of justice remember we said the Odyssey is Justice and in that sense it means justifying God or vindicating God.

But what I mean when I say the it actually boils down to the issue of justice. The unbeliever who makes this argument Believes in good and bad. Because he's saying if I don't believe in God because evil, right?

Moreover, he believes that some things are just and unjust. So he's not just saying I believe in good and bad he's saying I believe that some things are just and Some things are unjust. He in fact give you an example he might say you know what last night a meth house blew up and everybody in it Died and you know what?

Sayonara those people were doing drugs and they died. He might in his mind justify that but he might also see on the news that a truckload of children Coming home from a play Went off into a river and all the children drowned and he can't justify that in his mind.

You see what I'm saying in the in the in the mind of the unbeliever and even in our mind. We we can see certain things and say okay, I could see you know, so Osama bin Laden, you know. Took him out. Good Police officer gets killed inside the road not good unjust.

All right. So so it's it's not just good and bad. It's just an Unjust and I want to say I want to back up and say for a moment I'm not saying anybody desires deserves a dine-in meth house. I'm just saying that's how people would justify it.

Please if I offended anyone, please forgive me. I'm not saying anybody, you know that I would look at that and say oh well they deserve it, but people do that's how people Justify evil in one regard but they and they see something else and they can't right and.

So this is we live in a world which is plagued. And I think we'd all agree with this. It's plagued by one injustice after another in our mind. And he begins to say if there is one injustice after another there can be no cosmic justice.

That's the mind of the unbeliever again, I'm coming at you from his perspective. I'm trying to help you understand why this argument exists. He must he says there can't be cosmic justice. The world must be a system of random Coincidences just bouncing about and if that's all that it is a series of random coincidences.

Then there can't be a God overseeing it, you know so far. I've given you all the reasons for God tonight I'm arguing. I'm not on his side, but I'm giving you how he comes to this conclusion. Women are beaten by their husbands.

Children are molested by their parents. You say well, that's because men are evil. Okay, take a step back. Volcanoes erupt and destroy entire villages and melt people alive. Who you gonna blame? Flood Tsunami.

Crack in the earth happens. 200 foot tidal wave takes out Portion of India. 250 ,000 people die in an hour that happens. But who controls nature. Yes, but so who do we blame. I'm participating in the On the side of the The bad guy and I'm trying to help us understand why people get to this place.

It's easy to get there if God is good He must be just. And how can we believe in a just God in a world full of injustice? That's really that's that argument boiled down to a simpler Situation he would never if he is all he says he is allow for such a terrible world to exist.

So how his believers do we address that. And as I said, I don't honestly don't think a lot of believers ever really try. I think they just sort of put it out of their mind or they come up with some really bad answers.

One of the worst. Dr. Frame, you know, he says that the free will defense is his. What he would say is or I would I would say that one of the worst in my opinion. Is the people who say God didn't have anything to do with that?

Volcano erupts. God wasn't in control that Hurricane hits. God wasn't in control that you think I'm you think I'm wrong. Let me tell you something I can take you back to Hurricane Katrina. When Katrina hit and I can I can remember preachers on television.

Saying God doesn't. God doesn't send hurricanes. God doesn't manage the weather. Direct specific statements. God doesn't do that. In Daniel chapter 4 Nebby Knesset stands on his Palace stands atop his palace and looks out at his Kingdom and he makes a statement about his.

How powerful is and what happened? God sent him into the field to eat grass like an ox and He lost his mind and all of his faculties had hair like feathers of a bird claws. Like a bird and he ate up grass like an ox for three years.

Then his mind returned to him. This is what it says Daniel 435. There's a 434 at the end of the days. I nebuchadnezzar. Lifted my eyes to heaven. And my reason returned to me and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored him who lives forever.

For his dominion is an everlasting dominion his kingdom endures from generation to generation. All the inhabitants of the earth are counted as nothing and he does according to his will. Among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth and none can stay his hand or say to him.

What have you done? I? Quoted that to a man in my office one time because he was telling me God wasn't in control the weather. Now I've had people I trust me. I've talked to a lot of people. Guy came into my office and he was telling me.

Yeah, pastor. We need to this who was a member of our church. He was a guy off the street literally. It wasn't somebody on the street. He drove up in a car got out was in a nice outfit came knocked on the door.

Can I talk to you pastor? I got a important message. I want to talk to you about okay? Not excited. Just so you know when I hear that it's always. It's almost always crazy. So he comes in my office and he stands there and he starts digging into me.

He goes. Do you understand? What the government is doing to us and these contrails that we see in the sky this is Influencing our air and it's causing us to Be made sick and it's causing this and it's causing that and he begins to you know.

Spout off. I mean he must have went for five minutes on all the different things that are happening all around us. You know for a fluoride and water and all this stuff. It's all it's all a big conspiracy to kill us all.

You know, maybe it is but at the end of it I said I Said well, I said, I appreciate you coming talking to me. I said, but let me just respond by saying I believe that even if the government is conspiring against us.

That I'm trusting that God is the one who's truly in control and he said no, he's not. He's given control to us. I didn't know I was you know, I Didn't say I was gonna say I at that moment. I didn't know I was gonna have to do this.

Yeah, I thought we were gonna have a civil conversation but when you tell me my God is not in control. We're no longer in a civil conversation. Because now we're talking about two different gods. We're no longer having a theological conversation.

We're having a conversation about heresy. And I said I opened my Bible to Daniel 4. I said well. Let me just read you what the Bible says and I read to him what I just read to you. And he said well, that was a pagan King who said that I don't trust that I said that's not the Word of God.

No that you see who said that it's Nebuchadnezzar. That doesn't. I don't trust that that was just his understanding. Get out. We're done. Because Nebuchadnezzar is prophesying. Yes, was he a pagan? Absolutely, but God can speak through the mouth of a donkey in the book of Numbers.

He can certainly speak through the mouth of a king and he does and he prophesies about the power of God. And he says I do. He does what he does his whole purpose and none can say to him. What have you done?

Let me tell you something this passage is not unique. I could have went anywhere. I just happened to go to the one passage that he wanted to argue about but I could have went anywhere. Could have gone to Isaiah.

Isaiah tells us I'm God and there is no other I'm God and there's none like me. I call a man from the the distance I I send a I call and I send. I do all of this all of my will. We go to Job. Absolutely.

What did he say and we're gonna get there? But yeah, he says to Job were you there when I laid the foundations of the earth? No. So again, God is all-powerful. He exercises his power. That's should not be a doubt.

But then by the standard of this that must mean he's not all good. If God is all-powerful according to the syllogism that we've been given must mean that he's not all good because surely. Here's here's the rub if we had the power to stop evil.

We would right. Now I've heard this. I've actually seen debates with atheists and Christians and the atheist would say to the Christian if You had the power to stop a child from dying wouldn't you of course the Christian not an animal.

You know, he's not a monster. Well, yes, of course if I had the power I would I would Save the child if you saw a child in the road cars barreling down. You'd be a you'd it you would run and try to save the child.

Right, even at the peril of your own life. Even you'd run and try to say how many children get run over every day is God not capable of Saving them. He is we can't say he's not because we just affirmed his all-power.

Right. He is certainly capable. So the argument is well, then he's just not good enough to do it. So the issue That we face is the question of God's goodness. Because it's really not a question of his power.

In fact, if you take the position that God is all good He's just not powerful enough. You've actually taken the position of Rabbi Kushner who wrote the book. Why do bad things happen to good people? Rabbi Kushner wrote that book after his son died and you know what his answer is in the book I'll give it to you.

It's very easy. God wasn't powerful enough to stop it. God's good enough, but he doesn't have the power to stop the evil that happens in the world. And he would rather worship. He says I would rather worship a God.

Who can't do it? Then a God who would allow it and could do it. Let me tell you something that book was a bestseller and it influenced a lot of people. Yeah. Oh, yeah, we're getting there. We're we're building the ramp Bob.

You you just went, you know, you went like speed and jump the ramp, but we're gonna. We're building to that point. You are you're going in the right direction though. Because where this is all gonna end and I mean, I don't know where we're on time.

I'm gonna have to start speeding up because I'm going a lot slower and I thought I would but where this where we are gonna end with this really is with the issue of. And I'll just I'll give it away if God if God destroyed all evil and You are evil.

What's the syllogism? You would have to be Destroyed that's that that that's the that's really the the nexus of the argument. You are saying that God should eliminate all evil. Okay, let me ask you this.

Do you believe that you're a sinner? Person might say no then you have to take them through the commandments and show them their center. But if they say yes, I believe I'm a sinner. So should God destroy you and they say well no, but God shouldn't let me do evil.

Okay, so you're saying that God should remove your moral agency your ability to make a choice. Well, no, I'm not saying that I don't want to be a robot. You see you they automatically begin to what they want.

They don't really want God should destroy all evil. You're evil. Nope God should make it. Oh, I can't do evil. You want to be a robot? Nope. And again, that's not the free will argument, but it is part of how you address what they're saying.

You understand it's how you begin to dig down into it because here's what my answer is and this may seem simple. But I think this is very helpful. When God created the world it was good and there was no evil and so when we think of what God made God made a good world and when we look at what God is going to do in the end is He is going to reestablish that good world and we exist right now between two worlds.

We exist between a good Eden and a good new earth or a new Eden new heaven whatever you want to call it and We exist in that interim point Where God is redeeming for himself a people. You see this is where we are.

Now what happened what brought? Sin, I'm sorry. What my I just gave away the answer what brought death and destruction and pain and suffering into the world that. Yeah, that is the answer right sin brought Evil into the world even the even the volcano.

You know, we said it was God and it is natural. But would volcanoes be part of the garden? I Don't think so. I think I have justification for the statement that I don't think anybody in the Garden of Eden had Adam not sinned and had the world been Sinless.

I don't think there would be any person in the garden who was afraid that the mountain was going to explode and burn them to Bits and I don't think in the new earth that we're going to have to be afraid that.

The water is going to overtake us and destroy us. Yes. Yes, we could. The the the fall of Satan did precede the fall of Adam and in our systematic theology class We talked a little bit about that. We talked about the fact that there was evil in Satan prior to the evil in Adam but We don't know how and and I do admit to the mystery of this.

We do not know how Satan Turned but we know that he was created good. The Bible says he was created good it says by pride he fell first. Timothy chapter 3 tells us it was pride that caused him to fall and We don't know exactly we know pride but we don't know how that pride entered his heart.

That's why iniquity in the scripture is called a mystery the mystery of iniquity where that where that originated in his heart. So there is somewhat of a There is somewhat of a point of no going back there.

We can go back as far as Satan but no further. You look like you have a question. It looks like that's developing. That's Fine that's fine again. My point is simply to say when God created in fact I don't believe Satan fell until after the guard until after the world was completed.

But that's my argument based on at the end of God creating all things. He said it was all very good. So I believe Satan fell after that. In time, I think Satan fell after God created his good world. No Christ and the cross was in the plan of God before the foundation world because of course God had decreed all things but the fall of Satan in time, I believe happened after The seventh day after God had created the world.

I can't prove that. My only my argument for it is that it says that all things were good. God declared all things good. And I'm looking at all there in a universal sense saying I think that would have been the angels and all things God had created and So the fall of Satan and the angelic realm because we know that's angels who fell with him, which we call demons would have been Happened in time, but we don't know it at what time.

I would say it would be after the seventh day. Yeah. Could it could have been some some have conjectured that Ed and that certainly is is certainly a possibility that. Yeah. But again, we don't know it's we have to we have to use a little bit of sanctified imagination because the text isn't clear.

Go ahead.

We know the concept of that which really makes this really redefines what evil really is in It when he uses evil to bring about good but to someone who is who is not a believer or not a Loosely Bible scholar One of the things that They might want to know is is is God responsible for you.

That's a that's a short question, but a real to me. That's a real question a real question.

I think it's a legitimate question. In fact, it really does move into the next Portion that I was going to deal with because the objection and this is in my notes. It was God who determined to curse the world.

It was God who determined to we can use the word allow Adam to fall. So why is he still not at fault? That would be you know. Is he responsible he's still at fault and some even go as far as to charge God with evil because.

Well, he knew man was going to sin. He decreed The fall from the foundation of the world. And again, this is where this is where Honestly the non Calvinists try to take their out. Right because the non Calvinists try to say well God just he he he knew was gonna happen being having control over it.

He knew was gonna happen, but he didn't decree it. That sound that's that's an easy out right for those who would but does the Bible teach that. No Says Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, right?

It says that God has foreordained all things. It tells us this very clearly, but it also says other things and this is what we have to be very clear to do we have to believe the whole Bible and The Bible declares that God Knows all things that he has determined all things and they are sovereign over all things yet at the same time.

The Bible never allows God to be made the one responsible for evil. Particularly James and his epistle says let no one say When they have been tempted to do evil that I have been tempted by God. Because God does not tempt anyone.

So why did James write that? Why does James he writes that because he's not trying to get God off the hook. He's making a statement. That's true. We believe the whole Bible right? We just said that so is James making a true statement.

He absolutely is so we have to take this as what we would say a tension not a Contradiction but a tension. Where the text very clearly shows that God is sovereign. But man is still responsible for everything that he does.