Apologetics 06a - Theodicy

we are back for class number six And apologetics, but before we begin tonight.

I have a very important announcement if you did not receive the email from me Then this will be news to you, but if you did you'll already know Dr..

Rich supleta who is going to come and speak to us Has had to postpone his trip his father passed away And he called me yesterday told me The first he said hey, I could still try to make it.

I said don't I said you know They're having the funeral next week.

I said don't even try.

I said let's just push it back, so he is going to come Rich is going to come the week after so on your syllabus Where he would have been speaking that will now be the last night of this class He will be speaking the last night of the class next week Will be what was week eight on your syllabus, which is going on the offensive the off the apologetics is offense is the title of that lesson and so You have to read one more chapter of the book chapter 9 So that's your reading it was going to be your reading for next week You were going to have a week off because we're not going to have any reading for to prepare for dr.

Supleta's lesson, but this week you'll read chapter 9, and then you're done with the book I still encourage you to finish the book.

I encourage you to read the chapters.

You didn't have to but for the sake of Earning your credit and being you know fulfilling the requirements for this class you have one more chapter to read and that's chapter 9 And we got it right Well tonight we are going to continue our What we began last week if you remember last week we? began to address specific objections and How we might respond to those objections two weeks ago? We looked at the objectors and the objections that we face And the first one we said was the existence in the nature of God The second one was the nature and reliability of Scripture and the third was the interpretation and application of Scripture So tonight.

We're really looking at the second part of the first Objection the Nature of God because we look last week at the existence of God I gave you some ways that you might enter into a conversation last week.

I hope was was eminently practical That was the intention this is how I might engage somebody This is how I might respond to what they say hopefully that was helpful for you because it's what part of what we're doing here and Tonight we're going to do sort of the same thing, but with a new objection and This is actually an objection that is fairly common.

It was actually said verbatim by Neil deGrasse Tyson who identifies himself as I believe he says he's Agnostic I don't know if he says he's a full-out atheist But this is what he said He said if God is all good He is not all powerful.

I want to write this whole thing down if you want to write it down You can't so long sentence.

He says if God is all good He's not all powerful, and if he is all powerful.

He is not all good, so Then This is his syllogism.

You know if then is his argument if God is all good He cannot be all Powerful and if God is all powerful He cannot be all good No, I mean.

He's the heart of the question is this Evil exists If God were all good he wouldn't allow evil to exist Unless he weren't powerful enough to do something about it He could be all good, but impotent unable to do Unable to do something about the evil right so so he's either all good But unable to do anything or he's all powerful, but not good enough to do anything but he can't be all good and all powerful because of the existence of Evil that's the argument that is made and it is not unique to Tyson that is a Argument that has been made for a long time in fact if you did your reading this week you will note that dr.

Frame Candidly says this is really the hardest Argument that we face as believers in fact he even goes on to say that this has taken many people away from the faith This one issue has driven people away because they could not reconcile the Omnipotence of God is all power and the omnibenevolence of God his all goodness All right, so they say they can't have both he can either be a Omnipotent, but not omnibenevolent, or he can be omnibenevolent, but not omnipotent, but he cannot be both That's that's the argument, and that's the argument.

We are going to look at tonight I want to give you though a technical term because I I like for you to know these things It's important for you to know these things the technical term is the term the odyssey In fact I almost entitled tonight's lessons lesson adventures in the odyssey And if that night you may know adventures in Odyssey that was used to this is Huh it used to be a radio program adventures in Odyssey well tonight is adventures in the odyssey and Theodicy would you gonna ask something? Yeah Well we're gonna get there that's true that is true, but we're gonna before we even get to the Objection we're going to talk about this from a Christian perspective How do we understand this because this is this is something that we do have to deal with as Believers I mean honestly this is jumping three steps ahead But you know you you have a person comes to you their child just died How can God be good and my child has died? That's a I mean as a pastor.

I've dealt with that very face to face with people in the room I've been in the room when several people have died as they were dying and they're they're crying out to God And I'm watching their last breath It's very difficult Okay, so let us not for a moment take tonight light This is very serious But the odyssey is we need to define our terms Of course theos is God So we have theos Is God? DK means justice and So the technical term theodicy is the vindication or the justification of God's goodness in view of the existence of evil That's that's the technical term the vindication or the justification of God's goodness in view of the existence of evil Now I want to say something about This particular argument it is amazing how quickly a Conversation can change from a scientific argument to a moral argument Person says I don't believe in God Because I don't think there's enough evidence and you start pointing to evidence You say the Sun in the sky the moon the stars the earth and everything around us seems to be created for the existence of man and we have a world that that is Purposeful and we have purpose and we have meaning and nobility and and virtue and humanity you start saying those things and I say, okay Okay.

Well, I don't believe God Exists because evil exists you see it quits being a scientific argument It starts being a moral argument And that's why if you go back last week into our reading.

Dr.

Frame addressed the very issue of the moral argument Remember he said really his argument his his apologetic Really rests not so much.

I mean he he uses the transcendental argument, but he says he uses even more so the moral because really a lot of time the where people have their issue is Understanding how God can be God in this world be as bad as it is So I want us to look at a text if you have your Bible turn with me to Psalm 145 Psalm 145 Go to verse 8, please It says in verse 8.

The Lord is gracious and merciful Slow to anger Abounding in steadfast love the Lord is good to all and His mercy is over all That he has made So this text affirms two things about God One it affirms God's Omnipotence, what is what is omnipotence mean? That's right.

He is all Powerful calls him Lord Talks about him as creator all that he has made Expresses very much his power in this text But more so than his power it expresses another virtue of his nature and what is that his omni benevolence? Because it says very clearly That the Lord is good to who? Good to all Now you Calvinists out there may argue that all doesn't always mean every single person in the world.

However That and while that is true I would say that in the context of This it is expressing the extent of God's goodness in a universal sense So I do think all you know all doesn't always mean every single person in the world But in this case, I believe it clearly does because it's expressing the extent of God's goodness Well We would call this common grace Matthew chapter 6 Jesus expresses this clearly when he says that the Lord makes it rain on the just and the unjust and so theologians have always distinguished at least since the Reformation have distinguished between common grace, which is common to all men and special grace which comes through revelation and through a Divine work of God's Spirit But it's all grace.

No one deserves it.

Somebody might say well, it's not grace because it's not saving So if you want to get super argumentative and call it common mercy even still it would still be goodness even if we don't call it grace because if if you want to only apply grace to Saving and some people now there's sort of a sort of an argument going on within the reform world Well, should we call it common grace or should should we not? But it's certainly merciful Because what do all men deserve immediate unfettered wrath God's God's wrath is what we deserve, but God doesn't exercise his wrath immediately In fact, even the worst of men get to get to enjoy Much goodness in this life, you know We were Bobby and I were talking about this earlier.

We talked about Hitler and we talked about other men Politicians and stuff and we're just talking about, you know, even the most evil of men enjoy goodness in this world You know, they walk out and they see the same sunset you do it.

It's beautiful, you know and they see the same they breathe the same air and The Bible says in him that being in God we live and move and have our being they they have their being and they're living and even they're moving in him and so This is an important reality that God is good to all and one could say Because we take a presuppositional approach to apologetics that our argument really just ends there They say God is not good and all-powerful.

We say yes, he is and You know, that's it.

Good night You know because the Bible declares both and that's why I want to look at Psalm 145 The Bible is clearly declaring both as true and it's not apologizing for it it's not seeking to Qualify it in any way God is Sovereign and he's good He's powerful and he is benevolent that's Affirmed by Scripture and since we presuppose the truth of Scripture We believe that that is true however We are seeking not only to know what the Bible says, but we're seeking to be able to defend What we believe and I do think that it is important that if we're going to defend what we believe that we understand it Remember when we first started this Series, what did I say? I say, you know when you when you come to apologetics It has a twofold purpose not just to win somebody or to convince somebody or to persuade somebody But it's also to reaffirm what we know is true apologetics has a has a personal benefit as well as a Benefit to someone outside and so when we come to this text, we're looking at it from the sense of a you know First of all, how do we really justify? Evil in light of or justify God's goodness in light of evil and As I was writing this lesson, you know I wondered how many would know if I went to the average churchgoer not you guys because you're super special you're in this class but if I went to the average person and I asked them how can God be all good and all-powerful and Imagine I would get all kinds of answers and I doubt a lot of them would be very biblical.

In fact Our book our text talked about that a little this week, right talked about different ways people answer and you know The number one answer.

I don't know.

Do you remember they want to give me the from the reading? What was the number one answer? Number one answer was free will Remember remember that he said the number one thing people will say is that God gave us freedom and he doesn't seek to intervene in our freedom right But remember what he also said That's not satisfactory That's not really an answer Because one the Bible doesn't teach libertarian freedom.

The Bible doesn't teach that we are outside of God's sovereign control even in our free Agency, we still are subject to God's sovereignty So to use the free will argument that that doesn't really solve the problem But that's often the one that people use there's there are others Remember, he said there were some who would use the argument of well evil doesn't really exist You know, that's what the Christian science people say say evil is just an illusion Remember what he said? It's just a pretty convincing illusion And he said even if it is an illusion now, he may not have said this in the book I know he said this in his lecture because I've been you know doing both he said this he said even if it is an Illusion, it's a bad one and we still experience it Even if it weren't real we believe it's real and we feel it as if it's real so that argument from the Christian scientists that it's not real is Foolish, are you familiar with Christian science in the history at all? I see the confusion.

Yeah They make the argument that the that the evil and things that we face are just illusory they're not real No, no, no Christian science and Scientology are different Scientology was L.

Ron Hubbard's attempt to create a religion that made him very rich and Yeah, Christian science Mary Baker Eddie's Writings additional writings through the scripture and she believes she Mary Baker Eddie Yeah, and And she isn't it science and health and key to the scriptures in that Christian science, Bobby I know you teach on that at set free the different religion.

But yeah, it's she wrote a basically in addition to the Bible Addition not addition but addition to the Bible with science and health with key to the scriptures and they call it Christian science It is neither Christian nor scientific.

It's the It's awesome Because they say we're Christian scientists neither one Missed it by a mile on both accounts but anyway All good all good, so I Ask you this and that you don't have to answer out loud just in your own heart.

Do you believe? No, I thought I was having a heart attack.

I just said my whole body started shaking.

I was for a moment I thought I was a charismatic That's just how most spoken tongues I'm just kidding Do you believe and this is why I say please answer in your own heart You don't have to raise your hand or anything, but do you believe God is both all good and all-powerful? We said we affirm the Bible we said the Bible affirms that but we still need to be able to say why we believe You know, well the Bible says so yes, but how do we understand When we're face to face with it, how how does that argument boil down when we get placed? Question Well, we're getting a little ahead of ourselves and you're you're right and I'm not certainly not saying you're incorrect But I want to I want to talk a little bit before we get to that Because in in one sense while that is true We are it doesn't make people any less Inquisitive when they're on the tip of the spear No, I know I'm just saying but but but it you know it Because the issue really and this is where I want to I want to I want to make a point on the board The issue really deals with the subject of justice remember we said the Odyssey is Justice and in that sense it means justifying God or vindicating God But what I mean when I say the it actually boils down to the issue of justice the unbeliever who makes this argument Believes in good and bad because he's saying if I don't believe in God because evil, right? Moreover he believes that some things are just and unjust So he's not just saying I believe in good and bad he's saying I believe that some things are just and Some things are unjust He in fact give you an example He might say you know what last night a meth house blew up and everybody in it died and you know what? Sayonara those people were doing drugs and they died He might in his mind justify that but he might also see on the news That a truckload of children coming home from a play Went off into a river and all the children drowned and he can't justify that in his mind You see what I'm saying in the in the in the mind of the unbeliever and even in our mind We we can see certain things and say, okay, I could see you know, so Osama bin Laden, you know Took him out Good Police officer gets killed inside of the road not good unjust All right.

So so it's it's not just good and bad.

It's just and Unjust and I want to say I want to back up and say for a moment I'm not saying anybody deserves deserves a dine-in meth house.

I'm just saying that's how people would justify it Please if I offended anyone, please forgive me.

I'm not saying anybody, you know that I would look at that and say Oh, well, they deserve it but people do that's how people Justify evil in one regard but they and they see something else and they can't right and so this is we live in a world which is plagued and I think we'd all agree with this.

It's plagued by one injustice after another in our mind And he begins to say if there is one injustice after another there can be no cosmic justice That's the mind of the unbeliever again, I'm coming at you from his perspective.

I'm trying to help you understand why this argument exists He must he says there can't be cosmic justice.

The world must be a system of random Coincidences just bouncing about and if that's all that it is a series of random coincidences Then there can't be a God overseeing it so far.

I've given you all the reasons for God tonight.

I'm arguing I'm not on his side, but I'm giving you how he comes to this conclusion Women are beaten by their husbands Children are molested by their parents You say well, that's because men are evil.

Okay, take a step back volcanoes erupt and destroy entire villages and melt people alive Who you gonna play? Flood tsunami crack in the earth happens 200 foot tidal wave takes out Portion of India 250,000 people die in an hour that happens But who controls nature yes, but so who do we blame oh I'm participating in the on the side of the Of the bad guy and I'm trying to help us understand why people get to this place It's easy to get there If God is good He must be just And how can we believe in a just God in a world full of injustice? That's really that's that argument boiled down to a simpler Situation he would never If he is all he says he is allow for such a terrible world to exist So how as believers do we address that and as I said, I don't honestly don't think a lot of believers ever really try I think they just sort of put it out of their mind or they come up with some really bad answers One of the worst dr.

Frame, you know, he says the the free will defense is his his What he would say is worse I would I would say that one of the worst in my opinion is the people who say God didn't have anything to do with that Volcano erupts God wasn't in control that Hurricane hits God wasn't in control that you think I'm you think I'm wrong.

Let me tell you something.

I can take you back to hurricane Katrina When Katrina hit and I can I can remember preachers on television Saying God doesn't God doesn't send hurricanes God doesn't manage the weather Direct specific statements.

God doesn't do that in Daniel chapter 4 Nebuchadnezzar Stands on his palace stands atop his palace and looks out at his Kingdom and he makes a statement about his How powerful he is and what happened? God sent him into the field to eat grass like an ox and He lost his mind and all of his faculties had hair like feathers of a bird claws Like a bird and he ate up grass like an ox for three years Then his mind returned to him This is what it says Daniel 435 There's a 434 at the end of the days I nebuchadnezzar Lifted my eyes to heaven And my reason returned to me and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored him who lives forever For his dominion is an everlasting dominion his kingdom endures from generation to generation All the inhabitants of the earth are counted as nothing and he does according to his will Among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth and none can stay his hand or say to him What have you done? I? Quoted that to a man in my office one time because he was telling me God wasn't in control the weather Now I've had people I trust me.

I've talked to a lot of people guy came into my office and he was telling me Yeah, pastor.

We need to this who was a member of our church.

He was a guy off the street literally It wasn't somebody on the street.

He drove up in a car got out was in a nice outfit came knocked on the door Can I talk to you pastor? I got a important message.

I want to talk to you about Okay, not excited Just so you know when I hear that it's always It's almost always crazy So he comes in my office and and he stands there and he starts digging into me.

He goes.

Do you understand? What the government is doing to us and these contrails that we see in the sky this is influencing our air and it's causing us to Be made sick and it's causing this and it's causing that and he begins to you know Spout off.

I mean he must have went for five minutes on all the different things that are happening all around us You know flora fluoride and water and all this stuff.

It's all it's all a big conspiracy to kill us all You know, maybe it is but at the end of it.

I said I Said well, I said I appreciate you coming talking to me.

I said, but let me just respond by saying I believe that even if the government is conspiring against us That I'm trusting that God is the one who's truly in control and he said no, he's not He's given control to us.

I didn't know I Was you know, I I didn't say I was gonna say I at that moment I didn't know I was gonna have to do this Yeah, I was like I thought we were gonna have a civil conversation but when you tell me my God is not in control We're no longer in a civil conversation Because now we're talking about two different gods We're no longer having a theological conversation we're having a conversation about heresy and I open my Bible today in your for I said, well, let me just read you what the Bible says and I read to him What I just read to you and he said well, that was a pagan King who said that I don't trust that.

I Said that's not the Word of God.

No that you see who said that it's Nebuchadnezzar.

That doesn't I don't trust that That was just his understanding Get out We're done Because Nebuchadnezzar is prophesying Yes, was he a pagan? Absolutely, but God can speak through the mouth of a donkey in the book of Numbers He can certainly speak through the mouth of a king and he does and he prophesies about the power of God and he says I do He does what he does his whole purpose and none can say to him.

What have you done? And let me tell you something this passage is not unique I could have went anywhere I just happened to go to the one passage that he wanted to argue about but I could have went anywhere Could have gone to Isaiah Isaiah tells us I'm God and there is no other I'm God and there's none like me I call a man from the the distance I I send a I call and I send I do all of this all of my will We go to Job absolutely, what did he say and we're gonna get there But yeah, he says to Job were you there when I laid the foundations of the earth? No So again, God is all-powerful.

He exercises his power That's should not be a doubt But then by the standard of this that must mean he's not all good If God is all-powerful According to the syllogism that we've been given must mean that he's not all good because surely Here's here's the rub if we had the power to stop evil We would right Now I've heard this I've actually seen debates with atheists and Christians and The atheists would say to the Christian if you had the power to stop a child from dying Wouldn't you of course the Christian not an animal and he's not a monster.

Well, yes, of course if I had the power I would I would Save the child if you saw a child in the road cars barreling down You'd be a you you'd it you would run and try to save the child Right, even at the peril of your own life Even you'd run and try to say how many children get run over every day is God not capable of saving them He is we can't say he's not because we just affirmed his all-power Right.

He is certainly capable So the argument is well, then he's just not good enough to do it.

So the issue That we face is the question of God's goodness Because it's really not a question of his power.

In fact, if you take the position that God is all good he's just not powerful enough you've actually taken the position of Rabbi Kushner who wrote the book Why do bad things happen to good people? Rabbi Kushner wrote that book after his son died and you know what his answer is in the book I'll give it to you.

It's very easy.

God wasn't powerful enough to stop it God's good enough, but he doesn't have the power to stop the evil that happens in the world And he would rather worship.

He says I would rather worship a God Who can't do it? Than a God who would allow it and could do it Let me tell you something that book was a bestseller And it influenced a lot of people Yeah.

Oh, yeah, we're getting there.

We're we're building the ramp Bob you you just went you know, you went like speed and jump the ramp, but we're gonna We're building to that point.

You are you're going in the right direction though Because where this is all going to end and I mean, I don't know where we're on time I'm gonna have to start speeding up because I'm going a lot slower and I thought I would but where this where we are gonna end with this really is with the issue of And I'll just I'll give it away if God if God destroyed all evil and You are evil What's the syllogism You would have to be destroyed That's that that that's the that's really the the nexus of the argument You are saying that God should eliminate all evil.

Okay.

Let me ask you this Do you believe that you're a sinner? Person might say no then you have to take them through the commandments and show them their center But if they say yes, I believe I'm a sinner So should God destroy you and they say well no, but God shouldn't let me do evil Okay, so you're saying that God should remove your moral agency your ability to make a choice Well, no, I'm not saying that I don't want to be a robot You see you they automatically begin to what they want.

They don't really want God should destroy all evil.

You're evil.

Nope God should make it.

Oh, I can't do evil.

You want to be a robot? Nope And again, that's not the free will argument, but it is part of how you address what they're saying You understand it's how you begin to dig down into it because here's what my answer is And this may seem simple But I think this is very helpful when God created the world it was good and There was no evil and so when we think of what God made God made a good world and when we look at what God is going to do in the end is he is going to reestablish that good world and We exist right now between two worlds We exist between a good Eden and a good new earth or a new Eden new heaven Whatever you want to call it and we exist in that interim point Where God is redeeming for himself a people You see this is where we are Now what happened what brought? Sin, I'm sorry what my I just gave away the answer what brought death and destruction and pain and suffering into the world that Yeah, that is the answer right sin brought Evil into the world even the even the volcano You know we said it was God and it is natural, but would volcanoes be part of the garden I? Don't think so.

I think I have justification for the Statement that I don't think anybody in the Garden of Eden had Adam not sinned and had the world been sinless I don't think there would be any Person in the garden who was afraid that the mountain was going to explode and burn them to bits And I don't think in the new earth that we're going to have to be afraid that The water is going to overtake us and destroy us yes Yes, we could a The the the fall of Satan did precede the fall of Adam and in our systematic theology class We talked a little bit about that.

We talked about the fact that there was evil in Satan prior to the evil in Adam but We don't know how and and I do admit to the mystery of this we do not know how Satan Turned, but we know that he was created good the bible says he was created good It says by pride.

He fell first timothy chapter 3 tells us It was pride that caused him to fall and we don't know exactly we know pride But we don't know how that pride entered his heart That's why iniquity in the scripture is called a mystery the mystery of iniquity where that where that originated in his heart So there is somewhat of a There is somewhat of a point of no going back.

We can go back as far as Satan, but no further You have a question.

It looks like that's developing That's fine.

That's fine again My point is simply to say when God created in fact I don't believe Satan fell until after the guard until after the world was completed But that's my argument based on at the end of God creating all things.

He said it was all very good So I believe Satan fell after that In time I think Satan fell after God created his good world Um, no Christ and the cross was in the plan of God before the foundation world because of course God had decreed all things but The fall of Satan in time, I believe happened after The seventh day after God had created the world.

I can't prove that my only my argument for it Is that it says that all things were good God declared all things good And I'm looking at all there in a universal sense saying I think that would have been the angels and all things God had created and So the fall of Satan and the angelic realm because we know that angels who fell with him, which we call demons would have been Happened in time, but we don't know it at what time I would say it would be after the seventh day Yeah Could it could have been some some have conjectured that ed and that certainly is is certainly a possibility that Yeah But again, we don't know it's we have to we have to use a little bit of sanctified imagination because the text isn't clear Go ahead We know the concept of that which really makes this really redefines what evil really is in It when he uses evil to bring about good but to someone who is who is Not a believer or not a and I use the term loosely Bible scholar One of the things that they might want to know is is is God responsible for you And that's a that's a short question, but a real to me that's a real I think it's a legitimate question.

In fact, it really does move into the next Portion that I was going to deal with because the objection and this is in my notes.

It was God who determined to curse the world It was God who determined to we can use the word allow Adam to fall So, why is he still not at fault that would be you know Is he responsible? He's still at fault and some even go as far as to charge God with evil because while he knew man was going to sin he decreed the fall from the foundation of the world and again, this is where this is where Honestly the non Calvinists try to take their out Right because the non Calvinist tried to say well God just he he he knew it was gonna happen Somebody having control over it.

He knew was gonna happen, but he didn't decree it That sound that's that's an easy out right for those who would but this the Bible teach that No Says Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation in the world, right? It says that God has foreordained all things It tells us this very clearly, but it also says other things and this is what we have to be very clear to do We have to believe the whole Bible And the Bible declares that God Knows all things that he has determined all things and the a sovereign over all things yet at the same time The Bible never allows God to be made the one responsible for evil Particularly James and his epistle says let no one say When they have been tempted to do evil that I have been tempted by God Because God does not tempt anyone So why did James write that? Why does James he writes that because he's not trying to get God off the hook.

He's making a statement.

That's true We believe the whole Bible right? We just said that so is James making a true statement He absolutely is so we have to take this as what we would say a tension not a Contradiction but a tension Where the text very clearly shows that God is sovereign But man is still responsible for everything that he does Adam was responsible for his fall God has never made the responsible party Adam is responsible for his fall the cross of Christ According to Acts chapter 2 was foreordained by God It says that the men who hung Jesus on the cross did so under the foreordination of God According to his divine foreknowledge and his decree they hung Jesus on the cross and yet who bears the guilt those men who did it the brothers of Joseph sold him into slavery Genesis 50 20.

What does it say? Joseph looks them in the face He says what you meant for evil God meant for good to save many people alive and in that moment The same verb is used twice what you meant or what you did for evil God did same verb for for good and So we come to what we call the doctrine of compatibilism This is compatibilism Compatibilism This is an important concept that most people really have issue with because they don't ever they don't ever dig this far and the concept of man's will and God's will Because compatibilism is the doctrine That while God is sovereign Man is still choosing according to his own desires And that those two are Compatible as God is working it out in history.

He is creating a compatible Historical Expression he's getting what he wants by men still doing what they want His brothers wanted to sell him into slavery They sold him into slavery and yet that was still the plan of God who was responsible for selling him into slavery them and Yet it was part of God's decree And so that so that so that really this gets to the heart of what you just have now now brother you have a question Now that is a That is certainly a Thought that has been expressed before John you're not unique to have that thought some people believe that evil exists because the drama of God desired to demonstrate the drama of redemption and saving an elect and Demonstrating both his goodness and his justice.

I think that's going a little further Than where I had planned to go tonight, but certainly that is not beyond the realm of the conversation.

I think that that's The Bible doesn't clearly say that though we have to we have to say this is one way of thinking about Why it happened the way it happened And I certainly don't I'm not saying Yeah, well this also that it also gets to the question of what's known as super lapsarianism or in for lapsarianism I don't mean to throw out big words just to confuse But now we're getting to the question of was the fall It Was did God decree Salvation of his elect prior to the fall or after the fall that lapsarian it means lapsing or sinning supra means Before and infra means meaning after and the concept is the question of did the fall Was God reacting to the fall in his decree? And but but again There's a lot of debate that goes on there are Calvinists on both sides of that Debate if you look up in for lapsarianism super lapsarianism, you'll see that particular conversation that I just make you leave I don't want to talk about that anymore Bobby.

Go ahead Not the yoke thing because I just Okay Yeah, dr.

Frame addresses that in the book as well as as as evil as a as a as a privation as Evil as a non thing He is less inclined.

I still think that's accurate description But what I what I was saying and this is actually dr.

RC scrolls argument I think it's helpful is that evil is is not and it is something that God had to create Evil is the privation of righteousness.

God is the standard and evil is anything that is Not meeting, you know, that's what sin is failure to meet the standard and therefore Evil is not a thing.

It's a non thing but where dr frame has issue with that is he says it doesn't feel like a non thing when you're on the end of the spear doesn't feel Like a non thing when you're below the mountain and it's exploding All right So so when you say it's a privation you're right in that it's not something God Created in the way that he created the fishes and the mountains and that and that's an important truth.

That's an important truth Yeah, it's dark and the darkness is the absence of light evil is the absence of righteousness.

That's right So in that sense, I think privation theory is correct But where dr.

Frame says it doesn't really alleviate because it's still we still feel it we still experience it therefore it doesn't really solve the issue of wiser evil, but it does deal with the issue of did God create evil and That's the that's where you're in you're right.

Yeah, that's where yes, ma'am No, what I'm saying it's it's sin is sin is the absence of something Does that make sense sin is the absence of something? Yes.

Okay Darkness is absence of light like why is there God? There's no darkness in God.

So why is that? Yeah Well To give a very brief answer to what could be a more complicated question in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth and the earth was formless and void and Darkness was over the face of the water and the very first thing does that God does is set is create light Therefore to separate and make a distinction between light and darkness as he as he is forming He is forming this space one of the things that people don't realize space didn't exist Before creation when we say there was nothing we think of nothing is like a jar filled with nothing That's not the way it was nothing.

So God literally created space In the in the beginning God created the heavens.

That's the space and the earth.

That's the earth and it was Void in the sense that it was it was unfinished or unfilled and that's the idea of the it was formless and Void and it was dark and the first thing God does is he gives light So is that not satisfactory? I can tell by your face, but The concept though is in the in the stretching out of the heavens There's not yet a source of light and he gives the light He is in fact, I believe in day one to day three God himself is the light But it is remember God is not in his creation God is not We even talk about God being above his Christian God is outside of his creation So for there to be light within the creation God has to introduce that light Because God is not see we think of like here's creation and God's in the middle.

No God is Everywhere but he's not he is not a part of creation.

There's two two realms of being there's creator and creature And everything is in creature except him.

He's the only one that's here.

So he has to introduce the light for there to be light Yes The helpful, okay all right, so for the question We have to understand a few things here Here's a few things for you guys to think about and then we're going to actually we're gonna we're gonna take our break a few Minutes late tonight, but I will give you a break but stay with me for an extra five minutes and I'll give you your break Here's a few things to consider when we engage the unbeliever.

We believe based on the scripture.

God is all-powerful and all good We believe the world was created all good and we believe sin entering the world is what brought corruption now That should be simple enough, but here's two more thoughts That which was good Became subject to bad because of sin that which was good became subject to bad because of sin and Number five if you're numbering them God is under no obligation To keep any man or woman or anyone from that badness To maintain his own righteousness I'll say it again God is under no obligation to keep man Or keep any man woman child, whatever from that badness in order to maintain his righteousness So so the statement for God to be all good What do we say good is just right and what is another word for just? Righteous if God were righteous.

He wouldn't allow us to have evil in the world Now what I'm saying is it does not follow the argument is based on a false premise Because the Bible teaches clearly that God is under no obligation to keep us from evil To maintain his righteousness Yes Yeah, yeah, we talked about that.

I think last week.

It's the standard remember.

I drew the line.

God is the standard So now let's for the next few minutes as I said we're going to go a few minutes over I want to I want to look at the objector because all this was just sort of justified What does the Bible say now? Let's look at the objector himself to understand how to answer this objection when somebody says God cannot be all good and all-powerful I call it that it's Neil deGrasse Tyson But I also call it the Lex Luthor argument because Lex Luthor used that argument in Batman v Superman Not the greatest movie, but it did have that statement in it.

I Want us to consider the objector for a moment number one? this question Proves his presuppositions This question proves his presuppositions.

What is his first presupposition? No, not yet his presupposition is that there is a standard for justice Because for you to say that anything is unjust You have to have a standard for justice If a man says it's bad for a hurricane to kill hundreds of people he's assuming That somehow that's wrong and bad and unjust he said it he's making the assumption He has determined that life is good and death is bad Justify that without God I'll wait Justify that life is it's better to live than to not live Justify that Well, I like life.

I don't like death.

How you know you never died.

I I Sir or madam and here's the thing if he is an atheist or claims to be Asking if man is mere stardust a biological machine Why? This is life of value Is life only valuable because we say it is and what if someone says it isn't valuable? what if somebody says doesn't matter if a hundred people die in a hurricane doesn't matter if if a Volcano erupts and destroys a city doesn't matter if a nuclear bomb goes off and literally burns the shadows of people into the walls Doesn't matter Because life is meaningless.

You're nothing but stardust your biomechanical machine.

Somebody's going to come along later Probably more virtuous than you and take your place See, here's the thing justice Is what this is all about as I said, I circled it earlier.

This is all about justice and justice without a standard is impossible Justice without a standard is impossible when a man says something is bad He appeals to a standard and outside of a creator the standard becomes himself And the great presupposition of their objection is that God cannot be all good because I get to say what is good You see the presupposition of his argument is he gets to determine what is good Right because he says God let the children die.

He shouldn't have done that.

I would have done better God shouldn't have let that hurricane erupt or Hurricane hit or the volcano up because I would have done better What is it what's his argument I am better than God By the way, I've heard an atheist say that very thing in a debate I think it was Dan Barker, but I could be wrong But he was debating another guy Christian and he said if God told you to kill me Would you and the Christian sort of him hard? Well, you know, I wouldn't want to you know, but and he said well I'll tell you what I wouldn't do it.

I would tell God To go to and he said the bad word He said that's what I would tell God if he told me to kill you because I would know that was morally wrong and I'm better than God You see the presupposition is That my understanding of justice Is better than the Almighty's? That's tough.

But see if they've never been confronted with that They just figure that's the natural thing.

I know what's good And God's not holding his end of the deal and doing what I thinks, right? So who becomes the standard You the person the person when a man says God cannot be all-powerful and all good The first question we ask him is can you define goodness and he may say well good is what doesn't do harm to people Upon what standard do you come to that definition? By what standard do you reach that definition and at some point you might ask him just like we did last week Do you mind if I tell you what the Bible says about why there is so much evil in the world and Why we do see people suffering all the time Because we live in a world that is cursed by sin.

In fact just today my Bible reading today And it was in Revelation I was just where my wife and I are finishing a six months through the whole Bible is almost like seven chapters a day and we're just getting to the end and I was in Chapter 22 Hope I can find it real quickly Well, I might not be able to I'm sorry I didn't write it down.

But as I was reading it stuck out in my mind It said it says in the new earth that the curse has been put away The curse has been put away I have to I'll find the verse later out during the break but in that a wonderful thing That we do live in a cursed world.

I don't deny that we live in a world that is suffering pain and Torment and I don't deny that But the suffering of this world is the product of sin Not sins in general, but sin Itself which entered through Adam and Has been shared by all men in all ages Sin is a curse the world is cursed and it is cursed by God because he is holy and does not tolerate sin But he also doesn't abandon us to a curse He provided a way of redemption from the curse, can I tell you about that? God's justice demanded we pay a penalty God's love provided What he demanded? Can I tell you about that and remember this if God eliminated all evil You are evil That's right People say I wish God would do away with all evil then they read when God destroyed the world with the flood and they get mad They say I wish God would do away with all evil and then they read about God sending the Israelites to destroy the Canaanites and they get offended That's right God says I People say I wish God would do away with evil and they see God rain fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah and they say Oh what an unjust God Be careful what thou wish for All right.