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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.
Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.
If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight, seven. Seven seven five three three three four one and now with today's topic.
Here is James white.
And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line. We have a record-breaking Show today already. First of all, we have the largest studio audience We've ever had. Give yourself a hand out there. A studio audience can't hear a thing.
Okay good.
A.
Little golf clap from the gathered people. We also have an incredible audience in channel I see we have 50 people in channel right now and we have half of the reformed blogosphere in channel. Thank you.
We had an actual live live studio audience and Unfortunately rich has a microphone. So anyway We have half the reformed blogosphere in channel we have Tom askew listen channel, he'll be joining me in just a moment and of course, I'm here and we have That Tim Chalice Chalice Chalice guy, you know.
He's he has really ripped on me for how bad my blog looks like so I'm not really sure that I should leave him in There I was thinking about kicking him out just for the fun of it because he's been very mean to me, but he's there anyways and Centurion is there and I'm not sure if he really if he really counts and Carla's there she Carla caught counts a whole lot more than than Centurion does but we have a It's huge.
And the only reason it's huge is of course because not because of me but Tom Askew is going to be joining me here in a moment and That's why everybody's here. No one else really would care if it was just if it was just me There wouldn't be a studio audience and nothing but it's just you know, Tom Askew is here and so Anyhow Let's go ahead and I'm going to go ahead and jump over here and say hello to To Tom Askew.
Hi Tom. How you doing, bro? I'm doing fine James. Thank you. I tell you you have you have dragged them in I mean Now, I'm not really I can't really vouch for the character of all these people, but you have quite a following.
Well James, I am the father of six children and they're very computer literate.
Impersonate. I'm not sure. I was doing who is is on them, especially that one guy named air gun. I was checking on him just just to check out what was going on there. But how you doing out there? Have you had to dodge any any hurricanes or so far?
No, we still have a couple of weeks though. Though our drought index was only about 150 points.
Below the Sahara Desert. Yes, you got that's. You know, you guys need to get feast or famine. Isn't it better to get rain like a little bit at a time rather than like three feet and then nothing for a year.
Well, that's that's very true. The price you pay for living in paradise. I'm told.
But we are getting rain today. We're very grateful to the Lord for that. That's good. Excellent. Well, let's start off. Let's hold off the current controversies for just a moment. You mean about the Mac versus PC?
Right.
Well as someone said when you came in channel He said well, you know I like to have a little bit more control over my computer rather being controlled by my computer but to each his own and. You know, I can understand why some Calvinists might be attracted to the Mac thing.
But they'd be the ones who who rather slavishly follow whatever John Calvin said. So and but you and I we would have been driven out of Geneva. So there needs to be some ability to modify doesn't there?
Well, that's true. But Macintosh is the Calvinism of the computer world you think so? Oh, yes.
Okay, a smaller market much more stable operating system. Doesn't that mean that you're a Presbyterian? Rarely crashes. You don't have to get saved get lost get saved get lost. What's your own your own?
And you have nice commercials where where your your your guy can talk to Japanese digital cameras, but the rest of us can't. They are very good. They are very good. There's no two ways about it, but you know what I have Bible works 7 I have Libra makes I have all that stuff even the switching over idea would be so expensive that it just.
You know, I I look at him. I've got an iPod and it's it's wonderful and it halfway there I'm halfway there, but you got the cost James. Yes. Well, honestly, the the reward is not nearly what it needs to be.
So anyway, so having passed by the fact that you and I will be presenting a a Multifaceted team as as debate partners. Let's skip that for the moment. You'll have a Mac there and I'll have a PC and that'll be okay.
And they will be able to talk to each other but people think you're cooler, which is okay. But other than that, let's first talk about. The fact that you and I are going to be participating in a conference November 2nd and 3rd in Orlando.
If that is of course, that's after the hurricane season and. Yes, unfortunately, but toward the end of it much very toward the end of it November 2nd and 3rd in Orlando and You were in the Theological talk that we had on our last cruise when I went over.
The chapter titles of a book that we'll be releasing at that time called pulpit crimes. Mm-hmm. And in fact, I I'm not I'm trying to remember I think you may have contributed a few a few titles and ideas to that particular discussion, but obviously one of the major emphases in your own ministry with the founders of ministries has been to Address the issue of the centrality of preaching the primacy of preaching the the in fact you you might even want to mention the resolution at the convention that you've again resubmitted in regards to the issue of Holiness in the church church discipline the necessity of these things.
So obviously you could probably come up with just as many pulpit crimes that we observe these days as I do. So doesn't that sort of fit into what you're what you're doing as a part of your ministry? Yeah very much.
So.
You know, you and I both would share the conviction that Evangelicalism in America particularly today has so many problems and there are many good things. We don't want to overlook those and pretend they're not there but there's so many problems and and I have Tried to boil all that down on my own thinking to this.
I really believe that in many ways in many places we have lost the gospel of Jesus Christ. Now that's a drastic statement to make I know but I've started saying that the last few years because other things just don't grab people's attention and if I'm right about that then a whole lot of the other things that we tend to Focus on really don't matter, right?
If the gospel is gone What difference does it make if we baptize a million people or whatever else we might set our sights on?
No, no. And interestingly enough you have attempted to point this out and to point out the the result of substituting entertainment substituting pandering to to the lost person. Substituting all that for the gospel the results we see in our churches.
You you've looked at these statistics for some of the very large churches and and I've forgotten off top my head. Maybe you have to but but the numbers that I was thinking of one particular church. The numbers of people that had to be baptized to produce a single just attending person.
Not not someone who's necessarily of Applying all this in the entirety of their lives and they're living under the Lordship of Christ and all of us. But just simply to show up with I don't even know what the right.
What's an attender. Do they how often a year do they have to attend?
Yeah, well There's one Sunday out of the year that churches are encouraged to take their role and use that as an indicator and Some churches turn that into their high attendance, right? Right. I don't think there's a Request anymore for their average attendance across the year.
So you just kind of pick that one Sunday and assume that standard so the the numbers quite honestly are probably far worse than any of us would Want to consider and and even what is published and that we do consider you're looking at 40 of Those who are on our roles who would in any way be?
Classifiable and that's a frightening thought to me. It is it is I when I speak on Jehovah's Witnesses Especially in teaching at a Southern Baptist seminary once in a while I I point out that their their numbers the only way you can be counted as an active publisher with Jehovah's Witnesses is if you put in a certain number of hours during doing service ministry, and I ask everybody and I love watching especially Baptist pastors when I put it this way.
I said what would be the membership of your church if we took our membership based upon People showing up for at least half of our outreach efforts each year and they just roll their eyes and chuckle.
They go. Well, I'd have 12 members, you know, and and how many do you have in your church? Well, I've got you know, 1 ,500. I'd have 12 members and so when you start looking at 16 million 17 million the reality is so much less than that and You've you've gone through this.
I've told people before That I've spoken a number of founders Meetings before you and I ever got a chance to meet it was really odd that it worked that way and I've talked with these young men, especially young men who are trying to bring Reformation to their churches and they are So frustrated when they try to bring the Word of God to bear as far as godliness and a Love for the Word of God and and it just something like testing what we believe by the Word of God.
They get such resistance and they are so concerned about that they are so Amazed at that but isn't that what happens when you build a church without using the gospel as a primary means of doing it.
Yeah, very much. So and I think what has happened to and let me just speak in the family here of Southern Baptists Of which I'm a part I think what's happened to us by and large is that we have assumed that we know what we mean by gospel just like we have assumed that we know what we mean by conversion or Church.
And we can no longer afford those assumptions because the reality is so far different the reality we're living with than what we see when you look at Scripture and the Biblical teachings about what the gospel is how it works what a Christian is how you become one.
What a church is and how it's to be ordered and function those things that those teachings are so Lost and obscured by what goes on in the name of American Christianity. That it looks like we're not even the same business.
Whenever you compare the two, you know.
It's very true and that that's that's what I am at least talking about when I talk about pulpit crimes. That's what we're gonna be talking about in the conference November 2nd and 3rd. We're gonna be discussing a lot of things but clearly it all ends up boiling down to the fact that when you stand behind.
And I'm gonna be a good Puritan here and there are people who don't like the Puritans. They don't like hearing this but I I don't mind calling it the sacred desk that I believe it's a high the highest calling a man can have is to serve the people of God as an elder in the Church and to stand there and to minister the Word of Life to people.
There is a tremendous responsibility that I personally don't find to be Being respected a lot even within our schools these days. We we ask those people primarily to be CEOs not to be ministers the Word of God and there's so much going on.
Of course We're only talking within the narrow frame here of Baptist life. But given the debate that I'm going to be doing that weekend it obviously goes a whole lot wider than that and I know I'm gonna be very much looking forward to having Yourself and David King and Burke Parsons there, especially during the break in the debate I hope you'll be you'll be close enough nearby that if you've heard anything that I missed.
That you'll be the first one up there to say. Did you notice that he said this and that would be of course my debate with John Shelby Spong. But by then you and I will be like like like we have a USB Plug between our brains joined at the hip because just a few weeks before that Lord willing We will have had the opportunity of doing a previous debate now.
I've heard a rumor and this this could be completely wrong, but I need to you know Get this verified from you, but I've heard a rumor that you haven't done quite as many debates as I have.
Well, let's see. You've done what. 67 59 59, let me get my calculator out, okay.
You've done about 59 more than I have doesn't your Mac. Just have a little button pull up that calculator program. We do so right anyway.
Yeah, James. I'm a simple preacher. You're a simple preacher. In a church and so here. I am running with you big dogs.
That.
Earn your living and your reputation and and can fulfill your ministry and calling through debating. And I'm just a preacher y 'all just ought to let me be there to help you up to the podium.
Well, I might need it by then after all the damage. I'm taking but no I have. I remember you know the first time I actually heard you speak live you were speaking on the subject of the imputation of the righteousness of Christ so I have a feeling that you might be a little bit more familiar with how to Argue a point then you're letting on when you start using that little bit of Southern drawl and start calling yourself.
Just a simple preacher. I've heard other people do that right before they got the sword out and started trying to hack me up so I'm not really certain if that's that's the way things are supposed to go, but obviously the upcoming debate on October 16th of this year at the new Thomas Road Baptist Church in Lynchburg Virginia is probably the reason why we have a 60 people in channel right now and Including half the reform blogosphere.
And why at the last check of your website? There were 106 comments on What you posted yesterday in regards to being on the program today and the update on the on the caner situation? And and there's obviously a tremendous amount of interest that has been generated about this particular situation.
I would like to before we start discussing that and start taking our calls because we do have two people online. I think that does that mean we have one or two more lines rich that they're available one more line.
That's available for you. We will be taking phone calls if you'd like to speak to myself and to dr Askel. 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. I'd like to play just a couple of little clips from a sermon from The Thomas Road Baptist Church just a few weeks ago Where one of the correspondents that we have been speaking with Ergin caner said these following words.
Well as I was coming in phone rang. I picked it up. You're really not preaching on what you said. You were preaching. Yes, I am. I Honestly believe that there's no question in Christendom that the church should walk away from run away from or hide from.
And I think there are times where we need to address issues that are frontline issues.
Now I think you and I would agree with those sentiments wouldn't we a man?
I would say that all the time is the time to address frontline issues. Although I'm not sure there is a Christendom I'm too much of a Baptist to believe in that.
I understand that but Dum-dum if I had a I do have actually a little sound that I can I can play with that. Sorry about that. I wasn't expecting to do that, but then I you know I would certainly agree and obviously that means that dr Cantor believes that the issues concerning Calvinism because this was his anti Calvinism sermon are frontline issues Facing the church today and in fact he has said that he believes that the future of our churches hang upon this issue that it's one most important issues.
In all of.
In all of Christendom today, and so I agree with that. And then just a little bit later He said this.
That's time. It's a little better than that there. We go. Well as I was coming in phone, right? That's the one we already heard. Let's do this one. You're really not preaching on what you see there. We go.
I would quickly say that there's no way in the brief time that we have together that I could adequately Do the task that I would like to do, but certainly I can scratch as much of the surface as I.
Pray to do now. The irony at this point of course and you know why I played this particular section is one of the issues that has been very central in the discussion is the nature of the debate that we're going to be having and how long that debate is going to be and Dr. Cantor took as I recall about 33 minutes grand total.
Maybe actually might have been right at 30 because dr. Falwell introduced him so around 30 to 31 minutes for this particular sermon and if the four of us are speaking because this is to be you and I and emir and Ergon canner on the other side and Their initial proposal was two hours.
That means only half an hour per person and it strikes me as odd That given the dr. Cantor has admitted that the half an hour is only enough to scratch the surface. That that is their desired length of debate and he himself has said this is a big issue frontline issue.
Let's actually debate it fully. One other question one other quote here to play before we Start discussing these things toward the end of the of the sermon dr. Cantor started getting somewhat Animated shall we say and in that process he made these comments.
They don't have any reason to reach missions. They do it out of duty or they do it because it's something to do, but they don't have a hunger and an obsession. The reason I'm on Liberty Mountain. Because I've got fellow faculty brothers and sisters that have a hunger.
Because I got 10 ,000 kids running around me that feed that hunger. We believe that God can reach Everyone. We believe that God can reach every nation. We believe that every person with a breath and a pulse is there.
Because God has put them there so that we can go to them and reach them, but we won't do it if we allow this Infection to take over our churches. We won't do it if we become so in love with this system that JC doesn't stand for Jesus Christ it stands for John Calvin.
We won't ever grow a church with that type of doctrine. We won't ever reach a world with that type of doctrine.
That's pretty strong there. You have the description of that type of doctrine as in reality a virus and Infection what was. What were your thoughts when you first heard that that sermon Tom?
Oh, I can't repeat my thoughts when I first heard that sermon James, but You know it. I'm just I'm grieved. I think basically it boils down to just grief. Dr. Cantor Should know better or does know better, and I don't know which it is, but but he certainly should know better.
My my stars anyone who's read anything in.
In.
Baptist history or evangelical history. Would have to admit that at least among the greatest missionary efforts and evangelistic efforts in the world Calvinists are Numbered. Now I would argue even stronger than that that the greatest missionary efforts and evangelistic efforts in the world Have been those that had Calvinists at the helm.
How in the world can you make a statement like that when you've got men like? Admiral Judson and William Carey Who left everything to go and make the gospel known? Overseas when you have Jonathan Edwards and George Whitfield and Charles Spurgeon, and we could just go on and on and on.
And yet, that's their doctrine that he calls that doctrine is what he is saying will kill churches and will hinder the missionary enterprise. That that is a statement that is simply historically unverifiable and It got a lot of applause.
But it's just not true. It's very sad that it got a lot of applause applause. That was that was what? Really bothered me is that there were a number of statements made during the sermon I mean the entire story of Esau was turned upside down.
Made the exact opposite of its context in Romans 9 and you didn't hear any. Well, I don't know what anybody could do but you still hear all the applause at the end and you had a discussion that really bordered on Pelagian ism and a denial of original sin and and you you just.
You sit there listening to this and and you go. I'm hearing that this is the next generation of Southern Baptist leadership that these are the people who are at the At the helm and this this man's just been made the president of a theological seminary.
I I have a hard time understanding what the motivations here if I guess we should address our motivations. I mean, I'm I'm the one who contacted dr. Dr Cantor quite some time ago and when I first started seeing his his statements I invited him to debate and he had he had dismissed my invitations numerous times.
Had not responded to them or had just simply declined them and other people had contacted him and then when he appeared on your blog, I happened to be in the United Kingdom of that time and I I Responded on the blog and then there was this flurry of emails back and forth between the two of us.
Which is available on on my website and and all of a sudden after I posted that comes this challenge to debate at either Fort Worth at Southwestern or at Liberty there in in Lynchburg and I Part of that debate was that they wanted to do a two-on-two debate and I've only done that once before at Boston College which would be no more of a friendly context in fact much less of a friendly context to be honest with you because I've already been Contacted by a number of people from the Lynchburg area from Liberty.
There are a number of reform folks in that area that are praying for us and they're going to be there and in support and stuff so I think going to a Jesuit institution was significantly less supportive than then going to Liberty would be and and The invitation was given and they said but you need to have a second person and that person needs to be a Southern Baptist and of course.
My first thought was to contact you you spoke with your elders as well you should have and so the process began and From the beginning you you will confirm that my concern my focus has been on the opportunity That I see to speak primarily to the students of the Liberty Seminary a large number that dr. Cantor has informed me that the new worship center will be able to seat 6 ,400 people that's a pretty decent sized worship center and.
I.
From the beginning have have been concerned concerning the behavior of The Cantor's concerning the fairness of the debate, but I've had that concern in other situations I've gone to as well as there have been times I've debated Roman Catholics and and the only other Protestant I knew in the room was an Anglican on the front row and So and I knew nobody.
I mean I've gone in the situations I remember debating gerrymantics at a Roman Catholic high school in Nebraska. I didn't know where I was I didn't know any of the people around me. I was completely alone in this in this situation, but I did it anyway and I've learned I can trust the Lord honor his word and whatever context I'm in.
But I've mentioned to you a number of times that I can't control my opponents and I can't control the audience, but I can control myself and I can give a Presentation and a representation of the gospel that is honoring to him and the more Contrast that exists between my attitude my presentation my word the spirit that motivates my my my Presentation and the other side.
Well, you know That's that's a testimony in and of itself. It is James. I certainly commend you on that.
Have you ever seen an episode of the Jerry Springer show.
The closest I've yes, I have and the closest I get to that we be Maury Povich actually. So that's that's pretty bad, too. But yes, that's been it's been one of the analogies that's been used with me from those who are concerned.
You know particularly I don't know this dr. O'Donnell, but he's got a great reputation and I'm hoping that he will respond to our Repeated Questions that we've asked him. I would think that a moderator of a debate would be willing to help us to define the actual thesis right.
That seems beyond definition and you know my concern is that if it's going to turn into a free-for-all with these guys shouting and getting up and just doing what Some people are very good at doing.
You know that that turns into a circus, right?
Right and I can't. It would be very difficult for me to imagine that. Anyone certainly that's a Jerry Falwell or anyone there at Liberty and certainly dr. O'Donnell. Would in any way shape or form allow that to happen?
I I just given that half of the time no matter what. There are going to be calm men who are focused upon a presentation of the Word of God speaking. The the worst behavior I've ever seen. I'm thinking of two situations one a Roman Catholic and one of King James only fundamentalist Baptist.
The worst behaviors I've ever seen. Never got close to being that kind of. I've never had a shouting match no matter who I was Debating or anything like that. It takes a lot of provocation I think on one side on both sides really to have that happen and I.
If I like the kind of provocation you gave to Ergin in your emails.
No. No, I think honestly in that situation I am thinking for example the debate that I did against the Roberts and Jennis on the mass in Long Island and They the emails that had gone back and forth before that were significantly warmer than even what has taken place in our context and The result was that he was he was fairly warm, but not there was no yelling.
There was no there were there were some silly statements and a few cutting remarks that were made. But it was there was there has never been a situation where? In any way I felt that a debate that I was in was at all going to get out of out of Out of hand at all and given that dr. O'Donnell is the head of the current champion Debating team that has won all three categories of scholastic debate at the university level.
He has a whole lot riding on I think on his credibility at that point. And I just don't believe that he would allow that to happen. I also don't believe that he would allow there to be any playing around with the time limits or things like that because the thing's Going to be videotaped anyone can look at it and see so I think there's it's this is So public if there was not going to be you know over 6 ,000 people watching this okay.
Maybe but as my posting the correspondence shows when many eyes look upon a conversation. And many ears are open to it. That's a restraining factor, and and I I honestly Cannot believe that if the people of God will be praying and supporting and there are going to be people there who are supporting our perspective and are supportive of our work.
They're not going to be adding to that kind of a Circus atmosphere in any way shape or form so I just don't see that happening that would that would be very surprising to me now. Whether dr. Dr. Canner both either dr. Canner Step up to that and then present a meaningful presentation or whether there's more of what we got in dr. Canner sermon they're going to be under a tremendous amount of pressure as well.
And I think when when a push comes to shove they're much more going to be thinking about the long-term impacts of this than the than the immediate satisfaction of Yelling something out about Calvinist baby eaters or something like that.
You know I don't I just don't see that happening. I Pray and join with you and praying that's not going to happen. But all I can say is that on the part of half of the people there is my desire is to look into the eyes of those young people and You've had this experience.
I've had this experience as well there are young people there who have never heard but one side and yet they love the Word of God and When they hear the Word of God when they when they hear Jesus saying what Jesus says in the synagogue Capernaum when they hear the Apostle Paul Speaking of the eternal love of the Father for his elect people when they Hear what the Word of God says in so many of those places that that simply aren't opened to their hearing with much regularity in the churches that they're in.
That has an impact upon them and I don't care if someone takes a an audience poll on the way out and 70 say hey the canners one day whooped those Calvin's. I don't that I stopped worrying about popularity context the contest a long time ago see James.
I'm still caught up in that. I'm hoping that folks will think well of me.
Yeah, I can tell Tom. Yeah. Uh-huh sure. I'm trying to make my move in the convention here soon to.
Head for the presidency. That's well. I'm not gonna stop short there.
There's got to be a chance for a position somewhere that hadn't been unveiled yet. Tom Askell for king of the southern basket. Yeah, that King's a good thing. Yeah, so that's that's my motivation and and I think I've been very upfront about that I've tried to be consistent with that in the in discussing these things with the canners you did mention the thesis statement.
I once again want to make sure that all our listeners. Then we're gonna start going to calls because we're already happy to the program. I want to make sure our listeners understand what's going on there.
I Have posted in fact. I'm not sure if you saw this morning Tom that I've that's some very kind folks sent me a beautiful PDF of the correspondence. Beautifully typeset everything the canners say has a blue background blue borders and even in quotes.
It's all the same font. It's just gorgeous. It looks a lot better than the original actually so I've replaced that up on the on the website so people can can get hold of that if they want to look at it.
But if you read the correspondence you will see that the thesis statement. That is being insisted upon now the irony is when we first started asking for a thesis statement in a format. It was sort of like we just want a free-for-all who cares about thesis statement that you know and Calvinism Baptist.
That's fine. Whatever. It was just sort of like who cares now all of a sudden. There is this death grip. On this resolution, and this is exactly how it's been presented to us. The gut that God is an omnibenevolent God to all of humanity through salvation and opportunity.
I'll repeat it again in case you were wondering what I was talking about that God is an omnibenevolent God to all of humanity through salvation and opportunity now I immediately responded and I have expanded my critique.
I have tried to point out that this doesn't make any sense and in fact that is a thesis statement that a Unitarian Universalist could defend quite easily because it is so ambiguous it is poorly written.
It takes God is an omnibenevolent God to all of humanity it turns Omnibenevolence into a verb and I understand there's a verbal idea in it. But that's a noun and we're supposed to be debating something you can you can you can deny and to affirm All of humanity does that mean before the cross after us?
I don't know through salvation and opportunity again has all sorts of problems with it, and so I wrote a Counter thesis a thesis that I thought was much clearer and honestly I was simply trying to encapsulate what I thought they were trying to say.
And that is God seeks to save every person equally and without distinction. I think that's what they're trying to say. I think they're trying that. That's my understanding. And that's been rejected and as far as I can tell from the last that I heard from the Cantor's and I don't know about You but the last thing I got from the Cantor's it almost sounds like that's last I'm gonna hear from them until October 16th to be perfectly honest with you.
It sounded pretty final to me in fact the headings subjugating said final letter. Yeah, I yeah, that's exactly right so. It seemed that they basically said We're doing it our way. It's gonna be two and a half hours, which they called a compromise the documentation Demonstrates that they could do a three-hour debate if they wanted to do a three-hour debate.
They don't want to Two and a half hour debate and the thesis is God is an omnipotent God to all humanity through salvation opportunity. Parliamentary format ten minutes speeches and you and I are both waiting for dr. O'Donnell to get back to it with us as to what the nature of this is what rule books are going to be used Etc etc.
You know what I I would much prefer the format that we have used in other debates. I've used with Muslims and Roman Catholics and Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and atheists and and everybody else. But as long as it's done fairly and there is equal time I Believe that I can make that work.
I've listened to dr. Cantor speak I know where his strengths are and I am quite confident that as long as we are given an equal amount of time to speak to these students and to make our case that we're gonna just fine as long as it's fairly moderated but I'm gonna have to get up or whoever you and I decides gonna be first up to bat and Basically go.
I have no idea what this thesis statement means. You have no idea what this thesis statement means a Unitarian Universalist could come up here and defend this. I'm just gonna have to tell you I think it means that what they're saying is God seeks to save every person equally without Distinction and let's go from there.
So I just throw my hands up in the air at that point and go why. Why is that a hill to die on for somebody? I don't understand that. Yeah, I don't either. Well, anyway, let's start taking our phone calls because these folks have been online for a long time.
They're all here for you. Tom, I'm not you know, you're already well on your way. I've got six people trying to call probably that I know of okay. Well that we have 62 people in channel. That's a new record.
Everybody in channel is listening with bated breath to everything that you say. And so I'm really feeling pretty unloved right now because I do this twice a week and nobody cares. But when you come on boom, we're gonna have to do this more often.
I think it's a wonderful thing. So anyway, let's start with Shane in Charlotte, North Carolina. Hi Shane.
Hey, I have got to say you are one of my heroes. And who are you talking to?
For any office you run.
Well, I tell people James is one of my heroes of the faith. I actually met you James about five years ago. You preached at our little Presbyterian Church in Nashville Good Shepherd. Oh, yeah. Sure. They built them.
Oh sure, of course, and and I Have still got that sermon on CD. I hope you don't mind but Steve camp was with me. Yeah. Yeah, and so I'm in Charlotte as a director of worship. I left the music business started pursuing ministry and was cause of men like you and David so great.
That's wonderful. Great to hear from you Shane. So the only two debates I ever tell people you lose is PC over Mac debate.
And.
The Pato Baptist debate.
So my debate with Bill Shishko, you're gonna be a rooting for the other side, huh? Well, I'm a former Baptist. Okay.
We call those backslidden Baptist.
But I just have really one question. I'm gonna drive up from Charlotte to To Virginia to watch the debate. Mm-hmm, and I've kind of followed Ergin for I think the thing that Kind of disheartens me the most is that he seems to kind of guy that would shoot off Studying what he's shooting off about and I think because I think he realized what he's gotten himself into because there's no way I would debate you guys and I'm on your side, so But all that to say How would you plan on using something like and I've always wanted to get an answer to this question Or maybe you could help me.
The issue is if we agree ultimately the unforgivable sin if we die in our unbelief How could you possibly? state and come to the Conclusion whether you're Arminian of saying that Jesus died for all the sins of all men if that one sin goes unforgiven.
So I didn't know if you you know, if that has ever come up in a debate. What's the answer? I'm just I pretty much know how he would probably answer that after the Romans 9 Brienne exit Jesus he had on that.
I just I just wanted to get a response to have to do that.
But that that's John Owens argument if you read his death of death. That's basically what he says and right response. Well, he died for all the sins of all men isn't unbelief a sin. And and that's it.
And so ultimately. The argument against that has to go back into the atonement and make it somehow Conditional right not an objective definite atonement and that's why you see historically where Arminian ism has taken root universalism Inevitably is yapping at the heels.
Mm-hmm. You can trace you can trace it in the 19th century Baptist what happened? I mean in 18th century General Baptist life, right?
Yeah, there's no question. It would I've you know, I've said to it's arrogant I would be happy to walk into every single one of his classes on Tuesday, October 17th with nothing But a Greek New Testament and let's discuss these things.
Let's go to Hebrews. Let's talk about Hebrews 7 let's talk about Christ's ability to save the uttermost. Let's let's go to John 6. Let's go to Romans 9. I'll be happy to do that and it just seems to me that the the other side on this issue does not want to have Dialogue that is biblically based.
That's the only way I can put it because in the in the sermons that I've reviewed over the years These people stand there. I would never allow Calvinist in this pulpit. I'd you know any more than Mormon or Jehovah's Witness, you know.
And and and you you listen to this and and you just you're truly amazed because we're the ones looking for biblically based dialogue. We're the ones who want to get into the text. We want to discuss this and these young people.
That's what they want to do. That's exactly what they want to have happen. I remember when I first taught Christian philosophy of religion Up in Mill Valley one of the comments the students made was Well, we didn't bring our Bibles because this wasn't a Bible class and and I'm like, well You better bring them because that's the only way to do this type of thing.
And so that's what excites people. That's what I'd like to see happen. Whether we're gonna have time in this I see this as a beginning point. I see this as an opportunity To plant seeds amongst these young people and to say look.
You've been told that us Calvinists are out there and that this is what we're like, we're not like that. We are focused upon God's Word. We are convicted by God's Word that this is what we're to believe and that's why we do what we do.
This is our opportunity to show that to people but obviously there's all sorts of things. We're not to be able to develop. I mean if Tom's talking especially about historical issues, I'm presenting John 6 and things like that.
You'd only have so much time to be able to present things and if we try to present too much then it becomes too diluted. And you don't actually end up getting anywhere on any one point. So, you know still five five months off as to exactly how we're going to focus things.
But I'd love to get into those issues. I would be happy to stick around for the next day and discuss the Atonement and things like that. Well, that's going to happen. I don't know. Yeah.
Well.
I guess the thing that discourages me most is when it comes to this issue and I heard this on the debate with When you debated on Hank Hanegraaff this whole issue. And I think what disheartens me most is when I heard Tom talking about earlier when it comes to the gospel.
We the evangelical church is really straight away from the gospel and especially on this issue. You'll you'll find people that will argue about the rapture and they'll pull out the Bible and they can quote every text of Scripture.
That they can get their hands on. Whether you know when it comes to pre comes with a doctrine of election it's amazing how they would go these cute little anecdotes and Simply will not turn to Scripture on it.
I hear it day after day like on this through the email blog that I've read and it I think that's the thing that's most disheartening they will not go to Scripture to answer this because. You know, how do you get away from Esau?
I love Jacob, you know Jacob. I love Esau. I've hated. I mean, how do you get away from things like that. John 6 John 10? I mean, it's it's all through script again. Just thanks for all you've done James and I've got a list to have you sign every one.
But.
Tom sign they'd be worth more on eBay.
Well, I don't know if you remember but Mike Kruger says hi. Do you remember Mike at the church? Yeah, he's here. Okay. He was a he is one of our associate pastors here now. He was from Phoenix. He was a Reformed Baptist as well.
Well, I'll have to come to the debate that I have with Bill Shishko the week at the same week as the one with the. So that'll be that'll be interesting. Hey, thank you brother. Thank you for your ministry.
Thanks God. Let's let's head off to Chattanooga, Tennessee and talk with Kelly. Hi Kelly.
What's what's up? Well, I called for you as well James because I want to make sure you're saved and that you do know the Lord.
Okay. Well, actually, you know when I asked when I asked the canners about that Tom did send me a private email. That I haven't posted. Some people think I should. Where he. If you do, yeah, okay. Thanks.
Where he he did say that he does think that I'm a Christian. So I just want everybody to be clear on that.
Okay, well good brother. I Heard them recently of Floyd who has been nominated for the SPC. Talking about the hyper in the SPC, which I I don't know listen to the conversation I mean I tell you they're talking about unless it's you.
Tom.
Well, when many folks use that nomenclature what they mean is somebody who's really really really a Calvinist and They think that's hyper Calvinism because you are unabashedly a Calvinist. I've yet to have anybody who's leveled that charge against me or are This movement that's taking place or people that I know who's been able to articulate a Definition that so they don't even know the historical issues involved in hyper Calvinism and then whenever I ask them Well, what is it that you're really concerned about?
They're they're concerned about Calvinism and Call it a hyper Calvinism is just a way to demonize it. I don't know anybody that is a hyper Calvinist. I know a couple of people that toy with some of the elements of hyper Calvinism that make me uncomfortable.
Things like eternal justification and such as that. I am I don't believe that and I think there's real dangers in that but Even those guys I would hate to label hyper Calvinist. I don't doubt there's hyper Calvinist in the world.
I just don't know them. I know of some but I don't know any personally.
I of course have run into a number of them because the positions that I take and the defense Of Calvinism that I've offered in my various and sundry debates and I've always ended up debating with them but I don't know of any of them within the Southern Baptist Convention and one of the Elements of the correspondence that we had with the Cantor's was their use of that term and my saying well look, you know.
Here's here's a definition given with within a scholarly journal, you know. Where are you getting your definitions. And we can never get any responses from them. Those kinds of issues. One of my major.
Theology professors at Southwestern Seminary Leveled the charge against me as being a hyper Calvinist when I was a PhD student there. I went in to see him and I said, how could you make that charge on what basis?
And I said we've heard and talked about my beliefs. So we talked a little bit about my beliefs. I brought up the Senate of Dorton the 1689 confession. He says well Tom those are standard Hyper Calvinistic texts and I just I was blown away.
Yeah, he would say that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
So in other words Kelly, they're really They utilize the phrase but they they fill it with a non historical meaning. And then when I've challenged the cameras on us and you can Read this in the correspondence. They say well, we just don't accept your sources.
We're Biblicists and as if somehow You define hyper Calvinism biblically. Yeah, you know. Second opinions 312. Yeah, real quick we got two other callers on line.
Nominations are not but then I don't know what the criteria should be for a president. So if you can answer that time, it'd be great. I appreciate talking guys. Thank you. God bless. Yeah, Kelly.
It was a question. What's the criteria for being an SPC president? Yes. Uh-huh. Well, there's there's not any real set criteria. There's nothing spelled out. You just have to be a member in good standing.
I guess you have to be in good standing. You just have to be a member of a southern Baptist Church. What's happened during the conservative resurgence over the last 25 to 30 years is That men have been elected to that position who have been movement conservatives almost without exception.
Especially in the early days of that that is they were committed to making appointments on the committee on committees that would be filled by people who are committed to the recovery of the authority of Scripture and.
A lot of those acted to the presidency during those years came from churches that had not real stellar records in terms of financial support to convention causes. Especially to the cooperative program.
Which is kind of way the collective way that churches pull their monies to support missions and theological education and other things but the reason that those men and their churches were not stellar supporters is because they had become convinced over the years that moderate ISM or liberalism had Infiltrated many of the SPC entities and institutions and they didn't want to spend their money send their money to support that.
So now then that the conservative movement has fully taken hold and seems to be Intent in some respects and going more and more right and more and more narrow. There's a recognition that the cooperative program isn't getting the kind of support it ought to have.
So now there's this backlash if we really need churches to support the cooperative program. Well, the great heroes of the conservative movement were not staunch supporters of the cooperative program. It's a little bit difficult a new generation of that start giving 10 or whatever to the cooperative program.
So that's been one of the big issues particularly the issue regarding Ronnie Floyd. And I don't know what the truth is. It's been reported and seen that his church in Arkansas gave last year point program though.
They something like that to missions to the cause of names, but they did it outside that recognized convention channel.
Tom I was just while you're answering a question Looking at your blog and I don't know if you have refreshed your page. But a Liberty student has put a comment up and I felt like since we're on I needed to address this.
Okay? She mentions that There's a Facebook Site there the number of dr Cantor students involved with it and says anyway to my point a few students post on the message board of my group a few things. Interested me this was during the time when they had gone silent number one that Cantor was the one trying to get a debate happening and To listen to this that Cantor couldn't get dr. White to agree because there was a problem where dr. White was upset He wasn't getting paid enough.
Now.
Anyone who reads the correspondence knows there's been no discussion of any type of honorarium at all. And I I never ever ever expected have asked for any honorarium for this at all. In fact as far as I can tell you and I get to foot our own bill to get there.
We haven't been offered. Nothing has been said about honorariums. Nothing been said about to covering any cost travel. Putting us up as far as I could tell. That was oh good. Rich is offering me a ten spot in the window right now from the studio audience.
Just got together and got ten bucks for me.
James it wasn't until we agreed to double what you originally demanded. Yeah, yeah.
Absolutely. The the comment goes on to say now I've absolutely no idea where they got these ideas from but I can only guess they came Dr. Cantor himself. Well, we can't say that but let me tell anybody who's listening if if anyone has suggested That there is a monetary issue here.
That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard in the entirety of my life, and we have posted. That's another good reason there's another good reason to post the entirety of the correspondence because That demonstrates that that has not even been an issue that has come up.
Let's talk with David in Austin, Texas.
Hi, David. Hi. How's it going James doing good good? Hello? Dr.. Eskel? Hi David. How are you from my home state there? Yeah, yeah, you from Austin area. No. I'm actually an Aggie so.
I'm actually looking forward to the the subsequent debate between you and dr. Eskel about the PC vs. Mac issue the one on compatible.
It takes me a second to do this.
Thank you. My question had to do with the fact that it seems like that. At least the way you determined. We've got no proof that raised that painters had really had any.
Solid debate experience. Well, that's just it that if you go to Ergon caner's web canner's website You will see that he claims over 60 debates. He calls himself he quotes the description of himself as the intellectual pitbull of the evangelical church.
And I've asked him and I asked him with honesty. I asked him look you're a former Muslim. I'm gonna be debating Shabir Ali at Biola University coming up in a couple of months. Could you could you show me where your debates are?
I would like to learn from you. You are a former Muslim and He would at first he would not even respond and finally when he did respond He said well, we've just done some debates at some local colleges.
We don't run with the big dogs, and that's it. He wouldn't he wouldn't give me any more information than that at all. So I've tried. I have honestly tried.
And I can't get any information it seems like that given his the possibility that he does not have as much formal debate experience at least as One might think that with someone like his name was O'Donnell.
Yeah, right. With someone like that his disposal I mean not only have O'Donnell moderate the debate But also ask O'Donnell to provide a format for the debate. Ask O'Donnell to help him form a thesis statement.
Well, you know what I think happened. If you go back and read the correspondence. You'll see that when that idea was interjected because they were so now we're not going to be limited by thesis. We're not going to limit by any format.
You know just just bring it on man. We want to we want to be able to interrupt and not be limited by time. All those statements are in the correspondence, and it wasn't until the idea was brought up. Look.
You're on the campus of the award-winning debate team. Surely there's somebody on your faculty you can talk to.
Exactly what could be more limiting in time than only give it two and a half hours to do this. I think.
Probably there was some conversation and That that may have moved it forward to at least where we are today. But I I can't believe that a legitimate Debate coach or debate moderator would sign off on the thesis that they are forcing.
Yeah, I can't either I can't either that's but we haven't gotten any response from dr. O'Donnell yet. I just wrote to him as Tom knows what I wrote to the whole group a couple hours ago. And I've I've asked specific questions.
I want to understand specifically how this format is going to work with the nature of the questions how you yield time frames. I want a rulebook. I want a text. I want to. I want to know this stuff because again as long as it's applied fairly fine.
But we need to have that information, so I'm just waiting for the response, and I've seen many debates.
I've never seen the parliamentary neither by.
It on the BBC yeah.
That's where it comes from. Yep, yeah, so you guys are the powdered wigs and that's right.
I'm willing to wear the kilt, but.
You can wear your cowboy stuff. All right, hey, thanks. Thanks for calling. Let's quick grab Keith in Jacksonville, Florida. Hi Keith.
Hi, James and Tom. Tom. I know you from the founders ministry. We know last year I don't know if you remember me. I'm a big guy and we met in Tampa. In Tampa. Yeah, you were at the come on Tom. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Was preaching you were preaching and right. I was there. I do remember yes I really enjoyed that. And I am NOT a Baptist. I am a actually our church came out of the Disciples of Christ movement. We are non-denominational now and I've been.
I was introduced to the Doctrine of Grace about three and a half years ago and Changed my life. It's changed my ministry, and I think my church thinks I'm nuts. But it's okay. I just wanted to call and offer my prayers for you guys for the Canada bait.
I hope that it goes. Well, I'm sure that it will. I hope that you don't get bit by the pitbull, you know.
Well again, I think the only way that could happen is Is if there was just some really outrageous behavior, which I just don't see happening. Our desire my desire certainly I believe it's Tom's there as well is that the people of God will be edified.
Those who already embrace Those biblical teachings will be encouraged and those who maybe have heard less than accurate representations of them would be invited to look more closely at what what it's all about.
And and you know, I honestly have seen many many times where individuals who who wanted through their behavior to attempt to Castigate the truth that I was I was presenting by their behavior actually ended up causing people to look more closely.
So I we we serve a sovereign God and and I don't have any concerns about that. But we do definitely ask for everyone's prayer. That this would be the best debate that it could be where the the the Word of God is central the truth is central in.
Christ is honored also, dr. White. You you you. You rebutted her brevis. Do you remember that? Yes, her. His church is less than a mile from mine. I thought that was wonderful.
Well, I wasn't trying to make you laugh. Well, you know.
Calvinists believe babies are going to hell. I said didn't John MacArthur ride in the hands or it's safe in the arms of God. Yeah, I said you can't make bold statements. Oh, but people love making bold saying no.
Anyway, I look forward to seeing you guys at pulpit crimes. My wife and I are gonna be there. Well, great. Thank you.
I appreciate that. We look forward to meeting you. Make sure to introduce yourself. Yeah. All right. I got another call I got to take here. I've been told I must do because this is a fell named Bill in Owasa, Oklahoma.
Hey there, James. Hey, you sound a little bit familiar.
You know, he is familiar. He's the older brother that refuses to repent and use Macintosh. I've made clear on the blog I know way too much about computers to go back to a Mac if I was if I was ignorant of.
What up, but that's about is to make agree to that provided that they allow for two debates. All right, and the second debate or our first a thesis statement that that makes sense in English.
Well, you know, I certainly would be open to to multiple debates, of course. Just getting a date was difficult enough. I mean I sort of undertook to try to do that and I asked everybody what their schedule looked like October and it it was terrible, I mean trying to find.
You know one day in there were the four of us who are extremely busy. Traveling men were all the same place the same time was was pretty difficult to do. But honestly, I I people may think that I'm I'm being facetious here, but I would love to have a debate.
I would love to do a one-on-one debate with Ergon Kanner on John six. Nothing, but John six. Let's just let's just open the text. But look how many people have I invited to do that over the course? I mean Norman Geisler.
Dave hunt. So you start the list of Southern Baptist pastors. It's very very long when they when they speak out on these things and None of them will even respond to the email. So the chances of getting that to happen though.
We will certainly put your your name on the list there as possible. Locations.
I'd like to tie it into a Monday night before a founders conference meet here. You know. We could have a wonderful time. The auditorium doesn't sleep. But if we could guarantee that it would be full. Excited to hear you you breath resolved now.
That's a excellent excellent a topic that I'd love to address. But let's let's be perfectly honest here if there was a similar movement to the founders movement within the Southern Baptist going the other direction and They invited me with enough time for me to schedule it.
Of course. I mean, I'm scheduling debates in May of 2007 but right but with enough time to do it if they invited me to come to one of their meetings I'd be happy to do it. I would be overjoyed to do it.
The other side is not willing to do that. That's just all there is to what do you think that is? I'll let Tom comment on that as well. I I Think there is. I think there is. I Don't know. I mean I could not honestly I could not do what I do if I did not have the willingness to Defend my beliefs within those contexts.
I could not look at myself and honestly do what I do. So I don't understand How it is that that someone can purposely try to keep a debate as short as possible because they are not confident their position.
I don't understand it. I I've not experienced it by God's grace. So I don't know. I don't know.
Explanation for that either. Yeah, I don't ask them but I'm excited about the prospect of the debate. We have several men from our church who are planning to drive over Wasso to they said so you fellows could see and.
But I'm also for me and stick out in your neck as you say it like you said earlier James I just will be made. Just just as they as they watch the self. Yeah. Well, that is that is my hope. Honestly.
I it's the only reason I would I would go through all this is that God's Word does not return void God's there are so many people who are who are just so longing for That kind of in-depth the discussion of the Word of God and in the fullness of The proclamation of a Savior who actually saves he's not he's powerful.
He does not fail that rings in the hearts of believers when they get a chance to hear it. That's why I want to see it happen. So a bill. Thank you very much for your phone call today. God bless you, sir.
And Tom, thank you very much Tom. Thank you so much for joining me today, believe it or not. We actually went so far five minutes long just just to make sure to get that bill and is what was that guy's last name?
Was that was that asshole there go? I think there's an older. Is that an older brother there? Yeah, it is. I think I heard some concern of an older brother for a younger brother there. I really think well, that's good.
I won't even my corner.
Well, Tom, thank you so much for joining us today. Like I said, we've set all sorts of new records. We just about took our server down all the people who were listening at once and something tells me the archives gonna get hit.
Really really hard this this time around but I appreciate all that and brother you keep praying for me and I'll pray for you we'll be patient and We'll look forward to what the Lord has for us. Not only in October, but there it's a beginning of November as well.
All right, Jay. Thanks. Thank you very much. God bless you. But all right. God bless you. All right. Thank you very much everybody for listening to the program today. It was a fast hour and five minutes or so, thank you to the studio audience.
So let's Get studio audience there for us rich. There's that. Well, I was a golf clap. I ever heard one. Thanks for listening to the dividing line. We will be back Lord willing this Thursday afternoon with any developments and anything else that might be coming along.
Thanks for listening. God bless.
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