May 16, 2006

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight, seven. Seven seven five three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Opening Banter and Studio Audience

And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line. We have a record-breaking Show today already. First of all, we have the largest studio audience We've ever had give yourself a hand out there a studio audience can't hear a thing.

Okay good A Little golf clap from the gathered people. We also have an incredible audience in channel I see we have 50 people in channel right now and we have half of the reformed blogosphere in channel.

Thank you. We had an actual live live studio audience and Unfortunately rich has a microphone. So anyway We have half the reformed blogosphere in channel we have Tom askew listen channel, he'll be joining me in just a moment and of course, I'm here and we have That Tim Chalice Chalice Chalice guy, you know.

He's he has really ripped on me for how bad my blog looks like so I'm not really sure that I should leave him in There I was thinking about kicking him out just for the fun of it because he's been very mean to me, but he's there anyways and Centurion is there and I'm not sure if he really if he really counts and Carla's there she Carla caught counts a whole lot more than than Centurion does but we have a It's huge.

And the only reason it's huge is of course because not because of me but Tom Askew is going to be joining me here in a moment and That's why everybody's here. No one else really would care if it was just if it was just me There wouldn't be a studio audience and nothing but it's just you know, Tom Askew is here and so Anyhow Let's go ahead and I'm going to go ahead and jump over here and say hello to To Tom Askew.

Hi Tom. How you doing, bro? I'm doing fine James. Thank you I tell you you have you have dragged them in I mean Now, I'm not really I can't really vouch for the character of all these people, but you have quite a following.

Well James, I am the father of six children and they're very computer literate. Impersonate.

I'm not sure. I was doing who is is on them, especially that one guy named air gun. I was checking on him just just to check out what was going on there. But how you doing out there? Have you had to dodge any any hurricanes or so far?

No, we still have a couple of weeks though.

Though our drought index was only about 150 points.

Below the Sahara Desert. Yes, you got that's. You know, you guys need to get feast or famine. Isn't it better to get rain like a little bit at a time rather than like three feet and then nothing for a year.

Well, that's that's very true. The price you pay for living in paradise. I'm told.

But we are getting rain today. We're very grateful to the Lord for that. That's good. Excellent. Well, let's start off. Let's hold off the current controversies for just a moment. You mean about the Mac versus PC?

Right. Well as someone said when you came in channel He said well, you know I like to have a little bit more control over my computer rather being controlled by my computer but to each his own and You know, I can understand why some Calvinists might be attracted to the Mac thing.

But they'd be the ones who who rather slavishly follow whatever John Calvin said. So and but you and I we would have been driven out of Geneva.

So there needs to be some ability to modify doesn't there? Well, that's true. But Macintosh is the Calvinism of the computer world you think so? Oh, yes. Okay, a smaller market much more stable operating system.

Doesn't that mean that you're a Presbyterian? Rarely crashes. You don't have to get saved get lost get saved get lost. What's your own your own?

And you have nice commercials where where your your your guy can talk to Japanese digital cameras, but the rest of us can't. They are very good. They are very good. There's no two ways about it, but you know what I have Bible works 7 I have Libra makes I have all that stuff even the switching over idea would be so expensive that it just.

You know, I I look at him. I've got an iPod and it's it's wonderful and it halfway there I'm halfway there, but you got the cost James. Yes. Well, honestly, the the reward is not nearly what it needs to be.

So anyway, so having passed by the fact that you and I will be presenting a a Multifaceted team as as debate partners. Let's skip that for the moment. You'll have a Mac there and I'll have a PC and that'll be okay.

And they will be able to talk to each other but people think you're cooler, which is okay. But other than that, let's first talk about. The fact that you and I are going to be participating in a conference November 2nd and 3rd in Orlando.

If that is of course, that's after the hurricane season and. Yes, unfortunately, but toward the end of it much very toward the end of it November 2nd and 3rd in Orlando and You were in the Theological talk that we had on our last cruise when I went over.

The chapter titles of a book that we'll be releasing at that time called pulpit crimes. Mm-hmm. And in fact, I I'm not I'm trying to remember I think you may have contributed a few a few titles and ideas to that particular discussion, but obviously one of the major emphases in your own ministry with the founders of ministries has been to Address the issue of the centrality of preaching the primacy of preaching the the in fact you you might even want to mention the resolution at the convention that you've again resubmitted in regards to the issue of Holiness in the church church discipline the necessity of these things.

So obviously you could probably come up with just as many pulpit crimes that we observe these days as I do. So doesn't that sort of fit into what you're what you're doing as a part of your ministry? Yeah very much so.

You know, you and I both would share the conviction that Evangelicalism in America particularly today has so many problems and there are many good things. We don't want to overlook those and pretend they're not there but there's so many problems and and I have Tried to boil all that down on my own thinking to this.

I really believe that in many ways in many places we have lost the gospel of Jesus Christ. Now that's a drastic statement to make I know but I've started saying that the last few years because other things just don't grab people's attention and if I'm right about that then a whole lot of the other things that we tend to Focus on really don't matter, right?

If the gospel is gone What difference does it make if we baptize a million people or whatever else we might set our sights on?

No, no. And interestingly enough you have attempted to point this out and to point out the the result of substituting entertainment substituting pandering to to the lost person. Substituting all that for the gospel the results we see in our churches.

You you've looked at these statistics for some of the very large churches and and I've forgotten off top my head. Maybe you have to but but the numbers that I was thinking of one particular church. The numbers of people that had to be baptized to produce a single just attending person.

Not not someone who's necessarily of Applying all this in the entirety of their lives and they're living under the Lordship of Christ and all of us. But just simply to show up with I don't even know what the right.

What's an attender. Do they how often a year do they have to attend? Yeah, well.

There's one Sunday out of the year that churches are encouraged to take their role and use that as an indicator and Some churches turn that into their high attendance, right? Right. I don't think there's a Request anymore for their average attendance across the year.

So you just kind of pick that one Sunday and assume that standard. So the the numbers quite honestly are probably far worse than any of us would Want to consider and and even what is published and that we do consider you're looking at 40 of Those who are on our roles.

Who would in any way be?

Classifiable and that's a frightening thought to me. It is it is I when I speak on Jehovah's Witnesses Especially in teaching at a Southern Baptist seminary once in a while I I point out that their their numbers the only way you can be counted as an active publisher with Jehovah's Witnesses is if you put in a certain number of hours during doing service ministry, and I ask everybody and I love watching especially Baptist pastors when I put it this way.

I said what would be the membership of your church if we took our membership based upon People showing up for at least half of our outreach efforts each year and they just roll their eyes and chuckle.

They go. Well, I'd have 12 members, you know, and and how many do you have in your church? Well, I've got you know, 1 ,500. I'd have 12 members and so when you start looking at 16 million 17 million the reality is so much less than that and You've you've gone through this.

I've told people before That I've spoken a number of founders Meetings before you and I ever got a chance to meet it was really odd that it worked that way and I've talked with these young men, especially young men who are trying to bring Reformation to their churches and they are So frustrated when they try to bring the Word of God to bear as far as godliness and a Love for the Word of God and and it just something like testing what we believe by the Word of God.

They get such resistance and they are so concerned about that they are so Amazed at that but isn't that what happens when you build a church without using the gospel as a primary means of doing it.

The Loss of the Gospel in American Evangelicalism

Yeah, very much. So and I think what has happened to and let me just speak in the family here of Southern Baptists Of which I'm a part I think what's happened to us by and large is that we have assumed that we know what we mean by gospel just like we have assumed that we know what we mean by conversion or Church.

And we can no longer afford those assumptions because the reality is so far different the reality we're living with than what we see when you look at Scripture and the Biblical teachings about what the gospel is how it works what a Christian is how you become one.

What a church is and how it's to be ordered and function those things that those teachings are so Lost and obscured by what goes on in the name of American Christianity. That it looks like we're not even the same business.

Whenever you compare the two, you know.

It's very true and that that's that's what I am at least talking about when I talk about pulpit crimes. That's what we're gonna be talking about in the conference November 2nd and 3rd. We're gonna be discussing a lot of things but clearly it all ends up boiling down to the fact that when you stand behind.

And I'm gonna be a good Puritan here and there are people who don't like the Puritans. They don't like hearing this but I I don't mind calling it the sacred desk that I believe it's a high the highest calling a man can have is to serve the people of God as an elder in the Church and to stand there and to minister the Word of Life to people.

There is a tremendous responsibility that I personally don't find to be Being respected a lot even within our schools these days. We we ask those people primarily to be CEOs not to be ministers the Word of God and there's so much going on.

Of course We're only talking within the narrow frame here of Baptist life. But given the debate that I'm going to be doing that weekend it obviously goes a whole lot wider than that and I know I'm gonna be very much looking forward to having Yourself and David King and Burke Parsons there, especially during the break in the debate I hope you'll be you'll be close enough nearby that if you've heard anything that I missed.

That you'll be the first one up there to say. Did you notice that he said this and that would be of course my debate with John Shelby Spong. But by then you and I will be like like like we have a USB Plug between our brains joined at the hip because just a few weeks before that Lord willing We will have had the opportunity of doing a previous debate now.

I've heard a rumor and this this could be completely wrong, but I need to you know Get this verified from you, but I've heard a rumor that you haven't done quite as many debates as I have.

Well, let's see. You've done what. 67 59 59, let me get my calculator out, okay.

You've done about 59 more than I have doesn't your Mac. Just have a little button pull up that calculator program. We do so right anyway.

Yeah, James. I'm a simple preacher. You're a simple preacher In a church and so here. I am running with you big dogs That Earn your living and your reputation and and can fulfill your ministry and calling through debating.

And I'm just a preacher. Y 'all just ought to let me be there to help you up to the podium.

Well, I might need it by then after all the damage. I'm taking but no I have. I remember you know the first time I actually heard you speak live you were speaking on the subject of the imputation of the righteousness of Christ so I have a feeling that you might be a little bit more familiar with how to Argue a point then you're letting on when you start using that little bit of Southern drawl and start calling yourself.

Just a simple preacher. I've heard other people do that right before they got the sword out and started trying to hack me up so I'm not really certain if that's that's the way things are supposed to go, but obviously the upcoming debate on October 16th of this year at the new Thomas Road Baptist Church in Lynchburg Virginia is probably the reason why we have a 60 people in channel right now and Including half the reform blogosphere.

And why at the last check of your website? There were 106 comments on What you posted yesterday in regards to being on the program today and the update on the on the caner situation? And and there's obviously a tremendous amount of interest that has been generated about this particular situation.

I would like to before we start discussing that and start taking our calls because we do have two people online. I think that does that mean we have one or two more lines rich that they're available one more line.

That's available for you. We will be taking phone calls if you'd like to speak to myself and to dr Askel. 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. I'd like to play just a couple of little clips from a sermon from The Thomas Road Baptist Church just a few weeks ago Where one of the correspondents that we have been speaking with Ergin caner said these following words.

Well as I was coming in phone rang. I picked it up. You're really not preaching on what you said. You were preaching. Yes, I am. I Honestly believe that there's no question in Christendom that the church should walk away from run away from or hide from.

And I think there are times where we need to address issues that are frontline issues.

Now I think you and I would agree with those sentiments wouldn't we a man?

I would say that all the time is the time to address frontline issues. Although I'm not sure there is a Christendom.

I'm too much of a Baptist to believe in that I understand that but Dum-dum if I had a I do have actually a little sound that I can I can play with that. Sorry about that. I wasn't expecting to do that, but then I you know I would certainly agree and obviously that means that dr Cantor believes that the issues concerning Calvinism because this was his anti Calvinism sermon are frontline issues Facing the church today and in fact he has said that he believes that the future of our churches hang upon this issue that it's one most important issues in all of In all of Christendom today, and so I agree with that.

And then just a little bit later He said this.

That's time. It's a little better than that there. We go. Well as I was coming in phone, right? That's the one we already heard. Let's do this one. You're really not preaching on what you see there. We go.

I would quickly say that there's no way in the brief time that we have together that I could adequately Do the task that I would like to do, but certainly I can scratch as much of the surface as I.

Pray to do now. The irony at this point of course and you know why I played this particular section is one of the issues that has been very central in the discussion is the nature of the debate that we're going to be having and how long that debate is going to be and Dr. Cantor took as I recall about 33 minutes grand total.

Maybe actually might have been right at 30 because dr. Falwell introduced him so around 30 to 31 minutes for this particular sermon and if the four of us are speaking because this is to be you and I and emir and Ergon canner on the other side and Their initial proposal was two hours.

That means only half an hour per person and it strikes me as odd That given the dr. Cantor has admitted that the half an hour is only enough to scratch the surface. That that is their desired length of debate and he himself has said this is a big issue frontline issue.

Let's actually debate it fully. One other question one other quote here to play before we Start discussing these things toward the end of the of the sermon dr. Cantor started getting somewhat Animated shall we say and in that process he made these comments.

They don't have any reason to reach missions. They do it out of duty or they do it because it's something to do, but they don't have a hunger and an obsession. The reason I'm on Liberty Mountain. Because I've got fellow faculty brothers and sisters that have a hunger.

Because I got 10 ,000 kids running around me that feed that hunger. We believe that God can reach Everyone. We believe that God can reach every nation. We believe that every person with a breath and a pulse is there.

Because God has put them there so that we can go to them and reach them, but we won't do it if we allow this Infection to take over our churches. We won't do it if we become so in love with this system that JC doesn't stand for Jesus Christ it stands for John Calvin.

We won't ever grow a church with that type of doctrine. We won't ever reach a world with that type of doctrine.

That's pretty strong there. You have the description of that type of doctrine as in reality a virus and Infection what was. What were your thoughts when you first heard that that sermon Tom?

Oh, I can't repeat my thoughts when I first heard that sermon James, but You know it. I'm just I'm grieved. I think basically it boils down to just grief. Dr. Cantor Should know better or does know better, and I don't know which it is, but but he certainly should know better.

My my stars anyone who's read anything in in Baptist history or evangelical history. Would have to admit that at least among the greatest missionary efforts and evangelistic efforts in the world Calvinists are Numbered.

Now I would argue even stronger than that that the greatest missionary efforts and evangelistic efforts in the world Have been those that had Calvinists at the helm. How in the world can you make a statement like that when you've got men like?

Admiral Judson and William Carey. Who left everything to go and make the gospel known? Overseas when you have Jonathan Edwards and George Whitfield and Charles Spurgeon, and we could just go on and on and on.

And yet, that's their doctrine that he calls. That doctrine is what he is saying will kill churches and will hinder the missionary enterprise. That that is a statement that is simply historically unverifiable and.

It got a lot of applause. But it's just not true. It's very sad that it got a lot of applause applause. That was that was what? Really bothered me is that there were a number of statements made during the sermon I mean the entire story of Esau was turned upside down.

Made the exact opposite of its context in Romans 9 and you didn't hear any. Well, I don't know what anybody could do but you still hear all the applause at the end and you had a discussion that really bordered on Pelagian ism and a denial of original sin and and you you just.

You sit there listening to this and and you go I'm hearing that this is the next generation of Southern Baptist leadership that these are the people who are at the At the helm and this this man's just been made the president of a theological seminary.

I I have a hard time understanding what the motivations here if I guess we should address our motivations. I mean, I'm I'm the one who contacted dr. Dr Cantor quite some time ago and when I first started seeing his his statements I invited him to debate and he had he had dismissed my invitations numerous times.

Had not responded to them or had just simply declined them and other people had contacted him and then when he appeared on your blog, I happened to be in the United Kingdom of that time and I I Responded on the blog and then there was this flurry of emails back and forth between the two of us.

Which is available on on my website and and all of a sudden after I posted that comes this challenge to debate at either Fort Worth at Southwestern or at Liberty there in in Lynchburg and I. Part of that debate was that they wanted to do a two-on-two debate and I've only done that once before at Boston College which would be no more of a friendly context in fact much less of a friendly context to be honest with you because I've already been Contacted by a number of people from the Lynchburg area from Liberty.

There are a number of reform folks in that area that are praying for us and they're going to be there and in support and stuff so I think going to a Jesuit institution was significantly less supportive than then going to Liberty would be and and The invitation was given and they said but you need to have a second person and that person needs to be a Southern Baptist and of course.

My first thought was to contact you you spoke with your elders as well you should have and so the process began and From the beginning you you will confirm that my concern my focus has been on the opportunity That I see to speak primarily to the students of the Liberty Seminary a large number that dr. Cantor has informed me that the new worship center will be able to seat 6 ,400 people that's a pretty decent sized worship center and I from the beginning have have been concerned concerning the behavior of The Cantor's concerning the fairness of the debate, but I've had that concern in other situations I've gone to as well as there have been times I've debated Roman Catholics and and the only other Protestant I knew in the room was an Anglican on the front row and So and I knew nobody I mean I've gone in the situations I remember debating gerrymantics at a Roman Catholic high school in Nebraska.

I didn't know where I was I didn't know any of the people around me. I was completely alone in this in this situation, but I did it anyway and I've learned I can trust the Lord honor his word and whatever context I'm in.

But I've mentioned to you a number of times that I can't control my opponents and I can't control the audience, but I can control myself and I can give a Presentation and a representation of the gospel that is honoring to him and the more Contrast that exists between my attitude my presentation my word the spirit that motivates my my my Presentation and the other side.

Well, you know.

That's that's a testimony in and of itself. It is James. I certainly commend you on that. Have you ever seen an episode of the Jerry Springer show.

The closest I've yes, I have and the closest I get to that we be Maury Povich actually.

So that's that's pretty bad, too. But yes, that's been it's been one of the analogies that's been used with me from those who are concerned. You know particularly I don't know this dr. O'Donnell, but he's got a great reputation and I'm hoping that he will respond to our Repeated Questions that we've asked him.

I would think that a moderator of a debate would be willing to help us to define the actual thesis right. That seems beyond definition and you know my concern is that if it's going to turn into a free-for-all with these guys shouting and getting up and just doing what Some people are very good at doing.

You know that that turns into a circus, right?

Right and I can't. It would be very difficult for me to imagine that. Anyone certainly that's a Jerry Falwell or anyone there at Liberty and certainly dr. O'Donnell. Would in any way shape or form allow that to happen?

I I just given that half of the time no matter what. There are going to be calm men who are focused upon a presentation of the Word of God speaking. The the worst behavior I've ever seen. I'm thinking of two situations one a Roman Catholic and one of King James only fundamentalist Baptist.

The worst behaviors I've ever seen. Never got close to being that kind of. I've never had a shouting match no matter who I was Debating or anything like that. It takes a lot of provocation I think on one side on both sides really to have that happen and I.

If I like the kind of provocation you gave to Ergin in your emails.

No. No, I think honestly in that situation I am thinking for example the debate that I did against the Roberts and Jennis on the mass in Long Island and They the emails that had gone back and forth before that were significantly warmer than even what has taken place in our context and The result was that he was he was fairly warm, but not there was no yelling.

There was no there were there were some silly statements and a few cutting remarks that were made. But it was there was there has never been a situation where? In any way I felt that a debate that I was in was at all going to get out of out of Out of hand at all and given that dr. O'Donnell is the head of the current champion Debating team that has won all three categories of scholastic debate at the university level.

He has a whole lot riding on I think on his credibility at that point. And I just don't believe that he would allow that to happen. I also don't believe that he would allow there to be any playing around with the time limits or things like that because the thing's Going to be videotaped anyone can look at it and see so I think there's it's this is So public if there was not going to be you know over 6 ,000 people watching this okay.

Maybe but as my posting the correspondence shows when many eyes look upon a conversation. And many ears are open to it. That's a restraining factor, and and I I honestly Cannot believe that if the people of God will be praying and supporting and there are going to be people there who are supporting our perspective and are supportive of our work.

They're not going to be adding to that kind of a Circus atmosphere in any way shape or form so I just don't see that happening that would that would be very surprising to me now. Whether dr. Dr. Canner both either dr. Canner Step up to that and then present a meaningful presentation or whether there's more of what we got in dr. Canner sermon they're going to be under a tremendous amount of pressure as well.

And I think when when a push comes to shove they're much more going to be thinking about the long-term impacts of this than the than the immediate satisfaction of Yelling something out about Calvinist baby eaters or something like that.

You know I don't I just don't see that happening. I Pray and join with you and praying that's not going to happen. But all I can say is that on the part of half of the people there is my desire is to look into the eyes of those young people and You've had this experience.

I've had this experience as well there are young people there who have never heard but one side and yet they love the Word of God and When they hear the Word of God when they when they hear Jesus saying what Jesus says in the synagogue Capernaum when they hear the Apostle Paul Speaking of the eternal love of the Father for his elect people when they Hear what the Word of God says in so many of those places that that simply aren't opened to their hearing with much regularity in the churches that they're in.

That has an impact upon them and I don't care if someone takes a an audience poll on the way out and 70 say hey the canners one day whooped those Calvin's. I don't that I stopped worrying about popularity context the contest a long time ago see James I'm still caught up in that.

I'm hoping that folks will think well of me. Yeah, I can tell Tom. Yeah. Uh-huh sure. I'm trying to make my move in the convention here soon to. Head for the presidency. That's well. I'm not gonna stop short there.

There's got to be a chance for a position somewhere that hadn't been unveiled yet. Tom Askell for king of the southern basket. Yeah, that King's a good thing. Yeah, so that's that's my motivation and and I think I've been very upfront about that I've tried to be consistent with that in the in discussing these things with the canners you did mention the thesis statement.

I once again want to make sure that all our listeners. Then we're gonna start going to calls because we're already happy to the program. I want to make sure our listeners understand what's going on there.

I Have posted in fact. I'm not sure if you saw this morning Tom that I've that's some very kind folks sent me a beautiful PDF of the correspondence. Beautifully typeset everything the canners say has a blue background blue borders and even in quotes.

It's all the same font. It's just gorgeous. It looks a lot better than the original actually so I've replaced that up on the on the website so people can can get hold of that if they want to look at it.

But if you read the correspondence you will see that the thesis statement. That is being insisted upon now the irony is when we first started asking for a thesis statement in a format. It was sort of like we just want a free-for-all who cares about thesis statement that you know and Calvinism Baptist.

That's fine. Whatever. It was just sort of like who cares now all of a sudden. There is this death grip. On this resolution, and this is exactly how it's been presented to us. The gut that God is an omnibenevolent God to all of humanity through salvation and opportunity.

I'll repeat it again in case you were wondering what I was talking about that God is an omnibenevolent God to all of humanity through salvation and opportunity now I immediately responded and I have expanded my critique.

I have tried to point out that this doesn't make any sense and in fact that is a thesis statement that a Unitarian Universalist could defend quite easily because it is so ambiguous it is poorly written.

It takes God is an omnibenevolent God to all of humanity it turns Omnibenevolence into a verb and I understand there's a verbal idea in it. But that's a noun and we're supposed to be debating something you can you can you can deny and to affirm All of humanity does that mean before the cross after us?

I don't know through salvation and opportunity again has all sorts of problems with it, and so I wrote a Counter thesis a thesis that I thought was much clearer and honestly I was simply trying to encapsulate what I thought they were trying to say.

And that is God seeks to save every person equally and without distinction. I think that's what they're trying to say. I think they're trying that. That's my understanding. And that's been rejected and as far as I can tell from the last that I heard from the Cantor's and I don't know about You but the last thing I got from the Cantor's it almost sounds like that's last I'm gonna hear from them until October 16th to be perfectly honest with you.

It sounded pretty final to me in fact the headings subjugating said final letter. Yeah, I yeah, that's exactly right so. It seemed that they basically said We're doing it our way. It's gonna be two and a half hours, which they called a compromise the documentation Demonstrates that they could do a three-hour debate if they wanted to do a three-hour debate.

They don't want to Two and a half hour debate and the thesis is God is an omnipotent God to all humanity through salvation opportunity. Parliamentary format ten minutes speeches and you and I are both waiting for dr. O'Donnell to get back to it with us as to what the nature of this is what rule books are going to be used Etc etc.

You know what I I would much prefer the format that we have used in other debates. I've used with Muslims and Roman Catholics and Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and atheists and and everybody else. But as long as it's done fairly and there is equal time I Believe that I can make that work.

I've listened to dr. Cantor speak I know where his strengths are and I am quite confident that as long as we are given an equal amount of time to speak to these students and to make our case that we're gonna just fine as long as it's fairly moderated but I'm gonna have to get up or whoever you and I decides gonna be first up to bat and Basically go.

I have no idea what this thesis statement means. You have no idea what this thesis statement means a Unitarian Universalist could come up here and defend this. I'm just gonna have to tell you I think it means that what they're saying is God seeks to save every person equally without Distinction and let's go from there.