May 16, 2006

desert metropolis of phoenix arizona is the dividing line the apostle peter commanded christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence our host is doctor james white director of alpha omega ministries and an elder at the phoenix reformed baptist church this is a live program and we invite your participation if you'd like to talk with doctor white call now at six oh two nine seven three four six zero two or toll free across the united states it's one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one and now with today's topic here is james white and good morning welcome to the dividing line we have a record -breaking uh...

show today already uh... first of all uh... we have the largest studio audience we've ever had give yourself a hand out there studio audience can't hear a thing okay good uh...

little golf clap from the gathered people we also have an incredible audience in channel i see we have fifty people in general right now and we have half of the reformed blogosphere in channel thank you thank you i told you we had an actual live uh...

live studio audience and uh... unfortunately rich has a microphone so anyway uh...

we have half the reform blogosphere in channel we have uh... tom askew is in channel he'll be joining me in just a moment and of course i'm here and uh...

we have uh... that uh... tim chalice chalice chalice guy you know he's he has really ripped on me for how bad my blog looks like so i'm not really sure i should leave him in there i was thinking about kicking him out uh...

just for the fun of it because he's been very mean to me but he's there anyways and uh... centurion is there and i'm not sure if he really if he really counts and uh...

carla's there she carla counts a whole lot more than centurion does but we have a it's huge and the only reason it's huge is of course because not because of me but uh...

tom askew is going to be joining me here in a moment and uh... that's why everybody's here no one else really would care if it was just if it was just me there wouldn't be a studio audience nothing but it's just you know tom askew is here and so anyhow uh...

let's uh... go ahead and i'm going to go ahead and jump over here and say hello to uh... to tom askew hi tom how you doing bro i'm doing fine james thank you i tell ya you have you have dragged them in i mean uh...

now i'm not really i can't really vouch for the character of all these people but you have quite a following well james i am the father of six children and they're very computer literate and they know how to impersonate others i'm not sure i was doing who is's on them especially that one guy named airgun i was checking on him just to check out what was going on there but uh...

how you doing out there have you had to dodge any uh... any hurricanes so far no we still have a couple weeks though uh...

though our drought index was only about a hundred and fifty points below the sahara desert yes that's you know you guys either get feast or famine isn't it better to get rain like a little bit at a time rather than like three feet and then nothing for a year well that's that's very true the price you pay for living in paradise i'm told but we are getting rain today we're very grateful to the lord for that that's good excellent well let's start off uh...

let's hold off the current controversies for just a moment you mean about the mac versus pc i want to get right into that james well as someone said when you came in channel he said well you know i like to have a little bit more control over my computer rather than being controlled by my computer but to each his own and uh...

you know uh... i can understand why some calvinists uh... might uh... be attracted to the mac thing but they'd be the ones who who rather slavishly follow whatever john calvin said so and but you and i we would have been driven out of geneva so there needs to be some ability to modify doesn't that well that's true but macintosh is calvinism of the computer world you think so oh yes okay a smaller market much more stable operating system doesn't that mean that you're a presbyterian rarely crashes you don't have to get saved get lost get saved get lost what's your own your own and you have nice commercials where where you're you're you're guy can talk to japanese digital cameras but the rest of us can't i understand that they are very good they are very good there's no two ways about it but you know what uh...

i have uh... bible works seven i have uh... uh... libronics i have a lot of stuff even the switching over idea would be so expensive that it just you know i i look at i've got an ipod and it's it's wonderful and halfway there i'm halfway there but uh...

you have to cost james yes well honestly the uh... the reward is not nearly what it needs to be so uh...

anyway so having uh... passed by the fact that uh... you and i will be presenting a uh...

a multifaceted team uh... as as debate partners let's skip that for the moment uh...

you'll have a mac there and i'll have a pc and that'll be okay and that they will be able to talk to each other but people think you're cooler which is okay but uh...

other than that let's first talk about uh... the fact that the you and i are going to be participating in a conference of ever second third in orlando if that is of course that's after the hurricane season and that's not what's up well i don't know if you're in the hurricane season yes unfortunately uh...

but toward the end of it much very toward the end of it november second third in the orlando and uh...

you were in the uh... the theological uh... talk that we had on our last cruise when i went over the chapter titles of a book that will be releasing at that time called pulpit crimes and and in fact i i i'm not i'm trying to remember i think you may have uh...

contributed a few uh... few titles and ideas to that particular discussion but obviously uh...

one of the major emphases in your own ministry with the founders ministries has been to address the issue of the centrality of preaching the primacy of preaching the the uh...

in fact you uh... you might want to mention the resolution uh... at the convention that you've uh...

again resubmitted regards to the issue of uh... of of holiness in church church discipline that necessity things so obviously uh...

you could probably come up with just as many pulpit crimes that we observe these days as i do so uh...

doesn't sort of fit into what you're what you're doing as part of your ministry yeah very much so uh...

you know i both which here the conviction that evangelicalism in america particularly today has so many problems and that there are many good things we don't overlook those pretend they're not there but there's so many problems and and i have uh...

tried to boil that down on thinking to this i really believe in many ways in many places we have lost the gospel of jesus christ now that's a drastic statement to make i know but i've started saying that the last few years because other things just don't grab people's attention and if i'm right about that than a whole lot of the other things that we tend to uh...

focus on really don't matter right if the gospel's gone what difference does it make if we baptize a million people or whatever else we might set our sights on no no and interestingly enough that you have attempted to point this out and uh...

to point out the the result of substituting uh... entertainment substituting uh...

pandering to to the lost person uh... substituting all that for the gospel the results we see in our churches uh...

you you've looked at the statistics for some of the very large churches and and i've i've forgotten off top my head maybe you have to but but the numbers that uh...

i was thinking one particular church the numbers of people who had to be baptized to produce a single just attending person not not someone who's necessarily a applying all this in the entirety of their lives and they're living under the lordship of christ and all this is but just simply to show up with i don't know what the right what's an attender do they have how often a year do they have to attend yeah well there's one sunday out of the year that uh...

churches are encouraged to take their role can use that as an indicator and some churches turn that into their high attendance right right uh...

i don't think there's a request anymore for their average attendance across the year so you just kind of pick that one sunday and assume that standard so that the the numbers quite honestly are probably far worse than any of us would uh...

want to consider and and even what is published and that we do consider you're looking at that forty percent of those who are on our roles who would in any way be classifiable as active attenders and that's a frightening thought to me it is it is i when i speak on jehovah's witnesses especially in teaching at a southern baptist seminary once in a while i i point out that their their numbers the only way you can be counted as an active publisher with jehovah's witnesses is if you put in a certain number of hours during doing service ministry and i ask everybody and i love watching especially baptist pastors when i put it this way i said what would be the membership of your church if we took our membership based upon people showing up for at least half of our outreach efforts each year and they just roll their eyes and chuckle they go i'd have twelve members you know uh...

and and how many do you have in your church well i've got you know fifteen hundred i'd have twelve members and uh...

so when you start looking at sixteen million seventeen million the reality is so much less than that and uh...

you've you've gone through this i i i've told people before that uh... i i've spoken a number of founders uh...

meetings before you and i ever got a chance to meet it was really odd that it worked that way and i've talked with these young men especially young men who are trying to bring reformation their churches and they are so frustrated when they try to bring the word of god to bear as far as godliness and a a a love for the word of god and and it just something like testing what we believe by the word of god they get such resistance and they are so concerned about that they're so uh...

amazed at that but isn't that what happens when you build a church without using the gospel as a primary means of doing it yeah very much so and i i i think what happened to let me just speak in the family here of southern badness of which i'm a part i think what's happened to us by and large is that we have assumed that we know what we mean by gospel just like we've assumed that we know what we mean by conversion or church and we can no longer afford those assumptions because the reality is so far different reality we're living with than what we see when you look at scripture and uh...

the biblical teachings about what the gospel is how it works what a christian is how you become one what a church is and how it's to be ordered in function those things that those teachings lost and obscured by what goes on in the name of american christianity that it it looks like we're not even the same business whenever you compare the two it's very true and that that's uh...

that's what i am at least talking about when i talk about pulpit crimes that's we're gonna be talking about in the conference november second third we're gonna be discussing a lot of things but clearly it all ends up boiling down to the fact that when you stand behind and i'm gonna be a good puritan here and there are people who don't like the puritans they don't like uh...

hearing this but i i i don't mind calling it the sacred desk uh... that uh... i believe it's a high the highest calling a man can have is to serve the people of god is an elder in the church and to stand there and administer the word of life to people there is a tremendous responsibility uh...

that i personally don't find to be uh... uh... being respected a lot even within our schools uh...

these days we we ask those people primarily to be c e o's not to be ministers the word of god and there's so much going on of course uh...

we're we're only talking within the narrow frame here of of baptist life but given that the uh...

debate that i'm going to be doing that weekend it obviously goes to a whole lot wider than that and i know i'm going to be very much looking forward to having uh...

yourself and uh... david king and uh... burke parsons there especially during the break in the debate uh...

i hope you'll be uh... you'll be close enough nearby that uh... if you've heard anything that i missed uh...

that you'll be the first one up there say did you notice that he said this and uh... that would be uh...

of course my debate with uh... john shelby spong but by then you and i will be like like we have a u s b plug between our brains joined at the hip because just a few weeks before that lord willing uh...

we will have had the opportunity of of doing a previous debate now i've heard a rumor in this this could be completely wrong but i i need to you know get this verified from you but i've heard a rumor that you haven't done quite as many debates as i have well if you've done what sixty -seven uh...

fifty nine fifty nine ninety nine let me get my calculator out i think that you've got about fifty nine more than i have doesn't your mac just have a little button to pull up that calculator program we do so i'll be right anyway uh...

yeah james i'm i'm a simple preacher you're a simple preacher in a church and so here i am running with you big dog that uh...

earn your living and uh... your reputation and and can fulfill your ministry and calling for debating and i'm just a preacher y 'all just ought to let me be there to help you up to the podium well i i might need it by then after all the damage i'm taking but uh...

now i have uh... i remember you the first time i actually heard you speak live you were speaking on the subject of uh...

the imputation the righteousness of christ so i have a feeling that you might be a little bit more familiar with how to uh...

argue a point then you're letting on when you start using that little bit of southern drawl and start calling yourself just a simple preacher uh...

i've heard other people do that right before they got the sort out and started trying to hack me up so uh...

i'm not really certain if that's uh... and that's the way things are supposed to go but uh... obviously uh...

the upcoming debate on uh... october sixteenth of this year at the new thomas road baptist church in lynchburg virginia is by the reason why we have a sixty people in uh...

channel right now and including half the reform blogosphere and uh... why at the last check of your website uh...

there were one hundred and six comments on uh... what you posted yesterday in regards to being on the program today and the update on the uh...

on the caner situation and and uh... there's obviously a tremendous amount of interest that has been generated about this particular situation i would like to before we start discussing and start taking our calls because we do have uh...

two people online i think that that mean we have one or two more lines rich that they're available one more line that's available for you we will be taking phone calls if you'd like to speak to myself and doctor askew late seven seven seven five three three three four one i'd like to play just a couple of little clips from a sermon from the thomas road baptist church uh...

just a few weeks ago uh... where uh... and one of the correspondence that we have been speaking with arrogant canner uh...

said uh... these uh... following words well as i was coming in phone rang picked it up you're really not preaching on what you said you're preaching yes i am honestly believe that there's no question in christendom that the church should walk away from run away from a high from and i think there are times where we need to address issues that are frontline issues now i think you and i would agree with those sentiments with me and then i would say that all the time is the time to address frontline issues although i'm not sure there is a christendom nevertheless i'm too much of a baptist to believe in that i understand that but uh...

but i'm doing that i had a uh... i do have actually a little sound uh... that i can uh... i can play with that so i want to get that down sorry about that i was expecting to do that but uh...

then uh... i'd not i would certainly agree and obviously that means the doctor canner believes that the issues concerning calvinism because this was his anti -calvinism sermon are frontline issues facing the church today and in fact he has said that he believes that the uh...

future of our churches hang upon this issue that it's one most important issues uh... in all of uh...

in all of christendom today and uh... so i agree with that and then just a little bit later he said this that's time it's a little better now there we go well as i was coming in phone rang that's uh...

the one we already heard let's do this one here you're really not preaching on what you said there we go i would quickly say that there's no way in the brief time that we have together that i could adequately do the task that i would like to do but certainly i can scratch as much of the surface as i pray to do now the irony at this point of course and you know why played this particular section is uh...

one of the the issues that has been uh... very central in the discussion is the nature of the debate that we're going to be having and how long that's uh...

debate is going to be and uh... dot canter took as i recall about uh...

thirty three minutes grand total maybe actually might have been right thirty because of our follow introduced him so around thirty to thirty one minutes uh...

for this particular sermon and see if the four of us are speaking because this is to be uh...

you and i and uh... you near and arrogant canner on the other side and their initial proposal is two hours that means only half an hour per person and it strikes me as odd uh...

that uh... given the doctor has admitted that uh... half an hour is a business is only enough to scratch the surface uh...

that that is their desired length of of debate and he himself has said this is is a big issue frontline issue let's uh...

actually be a fully one other question one other quote here to play before we uh...

uh... dot canister getting somewhat uh... animated shall we say and uh... in that process he made these comments they don't have any reason to reach missions they do it out of duty where they don't have something to do but they don't have a hunger and obsession the reason i'm on liberty mountain because i've got fellow faculty brothers and sisters that have a hunger because i got ten thousand kids running around me that feed that hunger we believe that god can reach everyone we believe that god can reach every nation we believe that every person with a breath and a pulse is there because god has put them there so that we can go to them and reach them but we won't do it if we allow this infection to take over our churches we won't do it if we become so in love with this system that jc doesn't stand for jesus christ it stands for john calvin we won't ever grow a church with that type of doctrine we won't ever reach a world with that type of doctrine uh...

that's pretty strong uh... there you have the description of the that type of doctrine as in reality a virus and infection what was what were your thoughts when you first heard that uh...

that sermons on all i can't repeat my thoughts when i first heard that sermons james but uh...

you know it it i'm just i'm great i think basically it boils down to just grief doctor canner should know better or does know better and i don't know which it is but but he certainly should know better my my stars uh...

anyone who's read anything baptist history or evangelical history would have to admit at least among the greatest missionary efforts and evangelistic efforts in the world calvinist are numbered now i would argue even stronger than that that the greatest missionary efforts in evangelistic efforts in the world have been those that had calvinist at the helm how in the world can you make a statement like that when you've got men like admiral judson and william carey who uh...

left everything to go and make the gospel known overseas when you you have jonathan edwards and george whitfield and charles spurgeon we could just go on and on and on and yet that's their doctrine that he calls that doctrine is what he is saying will kill churches and will hinder missionary enterprise that that is a statement that is simply historically unverifiable and uh...

it got a lot of applause but it's just not true it's very sad that i got a lot of applause that was that was what uh...

really uh... bothered me is that there were a number of statements made during the sermon i mean uh... the entire story of he saw was turned upside down uh...

made the exact opposite of its context in romans nine you didn't hear any uh...

what what i don't know what i could do but uh... you still hear all the applause at the end and you had a discussion that that really bordered on plagiarism in a denial of original sin and and you you just uh...

you sit there listening to this and and you go i'm hearing that this is the next generation of southern baptist leadership that these are the people who are at the at at the helm and at this this man's just been made the president of a theological seminary i i i have a hard time understanding what the motivations here i guess we should address our motivations i mean i'm i'm the one who uh...

contacted doctor doctor canard quite some time ago and when i first started seeing his uh...

his statements i invited him to debate and he had he had uh... dismissed my invitations numerous times uh...

had not responded to them or had just simply declined them and other people contacted him and then uh...

when he appeared on your blog uh... i happened to be in the united kingdom that time and i i responded on the blog and then there is this flurry of emails back and forth uh...

between the two of us which is available on on my website and and all the sudden uh... after i posted that comes this challenge to debate at either uh...

fort worth at uh... southwestern or at uh... liberty there in in lynchburg and uh...

part of that debate was that they want to do a two -on -two debate and i've only done that once before at uh...

boston college uh... which would be no more of a friendly context uh... in fact much less of a friendly context to be honest with you because i've already been contacted by a number of people from the lynchburg area from liberty there are a number of reformed folks in that area that are praying for us and they're going to be there and in support and stuff so uh...

i think going to a jesuit institution was significantly less supportive than than going liberty would be and and uh...

uh... the invitation was given and and they said uh... but you need to have uh... a second person that person needs to be a southern baptist and of course uh...

my my first thought was to contact you you spoke with your elders as well you should have and uh...

so the process began and from the beginning you you will confirm that my concern my my focus has been on the opportunity that i see to speak uh...

primarily to the students of the of liberty seminary uh... a large number of the doctor canners inform me that uh...

the new worship center will be able to see sixty four hundred people that's a pretty decent sized uh...

worship center and uh... uh... i from the beginning have have been concerned uh...

concerning uh... the behavior of uh... of the cameras concerning the fairness of the debate but i've had a concern other situations i've gone to as well as there have been times of debate roman catholics and and the only other protestant i knew in the room was an anglican on the front row and uh...

so and i knew nobody i mean i've gone in the situations i remember debating jerry matics at a roman catholic high school in nebraska uh...

i didn't know where i was i didn't know any of the people around me i was completely alone in this uh... than this situation but i did anyway and uh...

i've learned i can trust the lord honor his word in whatever context i'm in i've mentioned to a number of times that uh...

i can't control my opponents and i can't control the audience but i can control myself and i can give a presentation and a representation of the gospel that is honoring to him and the more uh...

contrast that exists between my attitude my presentation my word the spirit that motivates my my my uh...

presentation and the other side well you know uh... that's that's a testimony in and of itself it is uh...

james i certainly commend you on that uh... have you ever seen an episode of the jerry springer show uh...

the closest i've uh... yes i have and the closest i get to that we maury povich actually so that's that's pretty bad to it yes uh...

that's been uh... it's been one of the analogies has been used with me from those who are concerned uh...

that you know particularly i i i don't know this doctor donald but he's got a great reputation and i'm hoping that he will respond to our repeated uh...

questions that we've asked him i would i think that a moderator of a debate would be willing to help us to define the actual thesis right that seems uh...

beyond definition and you know my concern is that if it's going to turn into a free -for -all with these guys shouting and getting up and just doing what uh...

some people are very good at doing you know that that turns into a circus and i i can't uh...

it would be very difficult for me to imagine that uh... anyone uh...

certainly that uh... jerry fallwell or anyone there at liberty and certainly doctor donald uh...

would in any way shape or form allow that to happen i i just given that half of the time no matter what uh...

they're going to be calm men who are focused upon uh... presentation of the word of god speaking uh...

the the worst behavior i've i've ever seen uh... i'm thinking of two situations one a roman catholic and one a king james only fundamentalist baptist uh...

the worst behaviors i've ever seen never got close to being that kind of uh... i've never had a shouting match no matter who i was debating or anything like that it takes a lot of provocation i think on one side on both sides really to have that happen and i it's not like the kind of provocation you gave to arrogant in your e -mails uh...

well uh... no uh... no i i think uh...

honestly in that situation uh... i'm thinking for example the debate that i did against the robertson jennison the mass in long island and they'd be emails that had gone back and forth before that uh...

were significantly warmer uh... than the even what has taken place in our context and uh...

the result was that he was he was fairly warm but and not than that there was no yelling there was no uh...

there were there were some uh... silly statements in a few cutting remarks that were made but it was there isn't there's never been a situation where uh...

in any way i felt that a debate that i was in was it at all going to get out of uh... out of uh...

handed off and given that uh... doctor donald is the head of the current champion debating team that has won all three categories of scholastic debate uh...

at the university level uh... he has a whole lot riding on uh... i think on his uh...

credibility at that point i just don't believe that he would allow that to happen uh... i also don't believe that he would allow there to be any playing around the time limits or things like that because the things can be videotaped anyone can look at it and see so i i think there's the it's this is as so public if if there was not going to be you know over six thousand people watching this okay maybe but as my posting the correspondent shows when many eyes look upon a conversation in many years are open to it that's a restraining factor and uh...

and i i honestly uh... cannot believe that if the people of god will be praying and supporting and they're going to be people there who are supporting our perspective in a supportive of our of our work uh...

they're not going to be adding to that kind of a uh... of a circus atmosphere in any way shape or form so i just don't see that happening that would that be very surprising to me now whether doctor uh...

doctor canner both either doctor canner uh... step up to that and then present uh...

a meaningful presentation or whether there's more of what we got in doctor canner sermon they're gonna be under tremendous amount of pressure as well and i think when when the push comes to shove they're much more going to be thinking about the long -term impacts of this than the uh...

than the immediate satisfaction of of uh... yelling something out about uh... calvinist baby eaters or something like that you know i think i don't i don't see that happening uh...

i i i pray join with you and praying that's not gonna happen but all i can say is that on the part of half of the people uh...

there is my desire is uh... to look into the eyes of those young people and you've had this experience i've had this experience well there are young people there who have never heard but one side and yet they love the word of god and when they hear the word of god when they when they hear jesus saying what jesus says in the synagogue per year when they hear the apostle paul speaking of the eternal love of the father for his elect people when they here what the word of god says in so many of those places that that simply aren't opens to their hearing with much regularity in uh...

the churches that they're in that has an impact upon them and uh...

i don't care uh... if someone takes a in audience poll on the way out and uh...

seventy percent say hey there is one day what those cows i don't that i stopped worrying about popularity context contest along time ago c james i'm still caught up in that and i'm hoping that both of the people of the yeah i i i i don't know if i'm yeah i'm sure i'm i'm trying to make my move in the convention here soon to uh...

head for the presidency that's that's well i'm i'm not all stop short but i don't know but they've got to be a chancellor's position somewhere that had been unveiled tom askell for king of the sun and that's where you have to do that king's a good thing yeah so that's that's my motivation and and i think i've been very up front about that try to be consistent with that in the in discussing these things with the canners you did mention the thesis statement i i i once again want to make sure that all this is a reserve going to call because we're already have to do the program i'm sure our listeners understand what's going on there uh...

uh... i have posted in fact i'm not sure if you saw this morning time that i've uh... that's uh... some very kind folks sent me a beautiful pdf of the uh...

correspondence uh... beautifully typeset everything the canners say has a blue background blue borders and even quotes it's all the same font it's just gorgeous it's a looks a lot better than the original actually so uh...

i've replaced that up on the on the website so people can uh... can get hold of that they will look at it but if you read the correspondence you will see that the thesis statement that is being insisted upon now the irony is when we first started asking for a thesis statement in a format it was so like we just want a free -for -all who cares about thesis statement that you know at calvin is a baptist that's fine whatever it was a sort of like who cares now all of a sudden there is this death grip uh...

on this resolution and this is exactly how it's been presented to us that god that god is an omnibenevolent god to all of humanity through salvation and opportunity i'll repeat it again in case you're wondering what i was talking about that god is an omnibenevolent god to all of humanity through salvation opportunity now i mean it responded i have expanded my critique i have tried to point out that this doesn't make any sense and in fact that that is a thesis statement that a unitarian universalist could defend quite easily because it is so ambiguous it is poorly written it takes god is an omnibenevolent god to all of humanity it turns omnibenevolence into a verb and i understand is a verbal idea that but that's a noun and we're supposed to be debating something you can you can you can deny and to affirm uh...

all of humanity does that mean before the cross after the cross i don't know through salvation opportunity again has all sorts of problems with it and so i wrote a uh...

a counter thesis a thesis that i thought was much clearer and honestly i was simply trying to encapsulate what i thought they were trying to say and that is god seeks to save every person equally and without distinction i think that's what they're trying to say i think they're trying that's my understanding and that's been rejected and as far as i can tell from the last i heard from the canners and i don't know about you but the last thing i got from the canners it almost sounds like that's last i'm gonna hear from them until october sixteenth to be perfectly honest with you uh...

it sounded pretty final to me in fact the heading said final letter yeah i yeah that's exactly right so uh...

it seemed that they basically said uh... we're doing it our way it's going to be two and a half hours which they called a compromise uh...

the documentation demonstrates that they could do a three hour debate if they want to do a three hour debate they don't want to uh...

two and a half hour debate and the thesis is god is an omnipotent god to all humanity through salvation opportunity parliamentary format ten minutes speeches and you and i are both waiting for dr donald to get back to it with us as to what the nature of this is what rule books are going to be used et cetera et cetera you know what i would much prefer the format that we have used in other debates i've used with muslims and roman catholics and mormons and jehovah's witnesses and atheists and and everybody else but is long as it's done fairly and there is equal time i believe that i can make that work i've listened to uh...

doctor kennard speak i know where his strengths are uh... and i am quite confident that as long as we are given an equal amount of time to speak to the students to make our case that we're going to just fine as long as it's fairly moderated but i'm gonna have to get up or whoever you and i decide it's going to be first up to bat and basically go i have no idea what this thesis statement means you have no idea what this thesis statement means a unitarian universalist could come up here and defend this i'm just gonna have to tell you i think it means that what they're saying is god seeks to save every person equally without distinction and let's go from there i'd just throw my hands up in the air at that point and go why why is that a hill to die on for somebody i don't understand that i don't either i don't either well anyway let's start taking our phone calls because these folks have been uh...

online for a long time they're all here for you uh... tom i'm not you know you're already well on your way well i mean as i said i've got six people trying to call probably that i know of okay well we have sixty two people in channel that's a new record uh...

everybody in channel is listening with bated breath to everything that that you say and so i'm really feeling pretty unloved right now because i do this twice a week and nobody cares but when you come on phone uh...

we have to do this more often i think it's a wonderful thing so anyway let's start with uh...

shane in charlotte north carolina hi shane hey i have got to say you are one of my heroes and who are you talking to uh...

uh... both of you uh... i think that's what i'll vote for you for any office you run well i tell people james is one of my heroes of the faith i actually met you james about five years ago you preached at our little presbyterian church in nashville good shepherd oh yeah sure david pilson oh sure of course and uh...

and uh... i have still got that sermon on cd i hope you don't mind but uh...

steve camp was with me yeah yeah and so i'm in charlotte as a director of worship i left the music business started pursuing ministry and was cause of men like you and david well great that's wonderful great to hear from you shane so the only two debates i ever tell people you lose is pc over mac debate and uh...

the pedo baptist debate so my debate with bill shishkoe you're going to be rooting for the other side well i'm a former baptist uh...

okay we'll help you out we call those backslidden baptists shane but uh...

i just have really one question i'm going to drive up from charlotte to uh... to virginia to watch the debate and i've kind of followed ergin for a few years and i think the thing that kind of disheartens me the most is that he seems kind of guy that would shoot off from the hip without um...

studying what he's shooting off about and i think the silence you may have had was because i think he realized what he's gotten himself into because there's no way i would debate you guys and i'm on your side um...

but all that to say howdy would you plan on using something like and i've always wanted to get an answer to this question and maybe could help me the issue is if we agree that if sin is unbelief or unbelief is sin i'm sorry um...

and it's ultimately the unforgivable sin if we die in our unbelief how could you possibly state and come to the conclusion whether you're arminian or reformed of saying that jesus died for all the sins of all men if that one sin goes unforgiven so i didn't know if you you know if that has ever come up in a debate what's the answer i'm just pretty much know how he would probably answer that after the romans nine bring it to jesus he had on that but um...

i don't want to get a response to that i can't answer on the debate question james i have to do that but that that's john owens argument if you read his death of death that's basically what he says and i response well he died for all the sins of all men isn't unbelief a sin and and and that's it and so ultimately the argument against that has to go back into the atonement and make it somehow conditional but i'm not an objective definite atonement and that's why you see historically where arminianism has taken root universalism inevitably is yapping at the heels you can trace it in the nineteenth century baptist what happened i mean in eighteenth century uh...

general baptist life right yeah there's no question that it would uh... i've uh...

you know i said to to eric and i would be happy to walk into every single one of his classes on tuesday october seventeenth with nothing but a greek new testament and let's discuss these things let's go to hebrews let's talk about uh...

hebrews seven let's talk about christ's ability to save the uttermost let's let's go to john six let's go to romans nine i'll be happy to do that and it just seems to me that the the other side on this issue does not want to dialogue that is biblically based at that's the only way i can put it because uh...

in the in the sermons that i've reviewed over the years uh... these people said i would never allow calvinist in this poll but i do know i have more any more than mormon or jehovah's witness you know and and and you you listen to this and and you just you're you're truly amazed because we're the ones looking for biblically based dialogue were the ones who want to get into the tax we want to discuss this and these young people that's what they want to do that's exactly what they want to have happen i remember when i first taught christian philosophy of religion uh...

up in mill valley one of the comments the students made was uh... well we didn't bring our bibles because this wasn't a bible class and and i'm like what you better bring them because that that's the only way to do this type of thing that's what excites people that's what i'd like to see happen uh...

whether we're gonna have time in this i see this is a beginning point i see this is an opportunity to plant seeds amongst these young people and to say look you've been told that us calvinists are out there and that this is what we're like we're not like that we are focused upon god's word we are convicted by god's word that this is what we're to believe and that's why we do what we do this is our opportunity to show that to people but obviously there's all sorts of things we're not to be able to develop i mean if tom's talking especially about historical issues i'm presenting john six and things like that you'd only have so much time to be able to present things and if we try to present too much that it becomes too diluted and you don't actually end up getting anywhere on any one point so uh...

you know still five five months office to exactly how we're going to focus things but i'd love to get into those issues i would be happy uh...

to stick around uh... for the next day and discuss the atonement things like that well that's going to happen i don't know yet well i guess the thing that discourages me most is when it comes to this issue and i heard this on the debate with uh...

when you debated uh... on hank hanegraaff this whole issue and i think what disheartens me most is when i heard tom talking about earlier when it comes to the gospel we'd the evangelical church is really straight away from the gospel and especially on this issue you'll you'll find people that will argue about the rapture and they'll pull out the bible and they can quote every text of scripture they can get their hands on whether you know when it comes to premium put dispensational premillennial eschatology but when it comes to the doctrine of election it's amazing how they will go these cute little anecdotes and simply will not turn to scripture on it and i hear it day after day on another on another call and show and especially like on this to the email blog that i've read and it i think that's the thing that's most disheartening they will not go to scripture to answer this because you know how do you get away from esau i love jacob jacob i love esau i hate it i mean how do you get away from things like that john six john ten i mean it's it's all through scripture so but uh...

again just thanks for all you've done james and i've got every book and hopefully one day in my goal is to have you sign everyone so but uh...

well you know that it is that it is that time so i'm going to be worth more than a year well i don't know if you remember but mike kruger says hi do you remember my uh...

at the church uh... yeah he's here but uh... he was uh... he was he is uh...

one of our sociopaths here now he's from phoenix uh... he was a reformed baptist as well well i'll have to come to the debate that i had with bill shishkoe the week at the same week as the one with the canners so that'll be interesting hey we love you and thank you for your ministry thanks god bless let's uh...

head off to chattanooga tennessee and talk with kelly hi kelly hey what's going on uh... what's what's up well i called for you as well james because i want to make sure you're saved and that you do know the lord okay only because uh...

answering whether they think you are all okay i think it would probably give an invitation to you and anyone else listening for salvation well actually you know when i asked the when i asked the canners about that tom did send me a private email uh...

that i haven't posted some people think i should where he knew if you do yeah okay thanks where he uh...

he did uh... say that he does think that i'm a christian so i i just want everybody to be clear on that okay well good uh...

i have two questions basically uh... i heard them uh... the canners uh...

and also uh... recently uh... floyd who has been nominated for the sbc talking about the hyper calvinist element in the uh...

the sbc which i i don't know hyper calvinist southern baptist i can't even name one so i i it seems like there's a straw man that's already assumed into the argument uh...

at least into the conversation uh... so my question is you have any idea they're talking about unless it's you hyper calvinist well uh...

when uh... when many folks use that nomenclature what they mean is somebody who's really really really a calvinist and they think that hyper calvinism because you are unabashedly uh...

calvinist i've yet to have anybody who's leveled that charge against me or or are this movement that's taking place or people that i know who's been able to articulate a definition that holds water historically so they don't even know historical issues involved in hyper calvinism and then whenever i ask them what is it that you're really concerned about they're concerned about calvinism call it a hyper calvinism is just a way to demonize it i don't know anybody that is a hyper calvinist i know a couple of people that toy with some of the elements of hyper calvinism that make me uncomfortable uh...

things like eternal justification such as that i i am i don't believe that and uh...

i think there's real dangers in that but even those guys i would hate to label hyper calvinist i don't doubt there's hyper calvinist in the world i just don't know them i know of some but i don't know any personally i of course a run into uh...

a number of them because the positions that i take and that the defense uh... of calvinism i've offered my various sundry debates and i've always ended up debating with them but i i don't know of any of them within the southern bass convention and one of the elements of the correspondence that we had with the canners was their use of that term and my saying well look you know here's here's a definition given with uh...

within a scholarly journal you know where where you getting your definitions and we can never get any responses from them one of my major uh...

theology professors at southwestern seminary leveled the charge against me as being a hyper calvinist when i was a phd student there i went in to see him and i said how could you make that charge on what basis and i said we never even talked about my beliefs so we talked a little bit about my beliefs i brought up the synod of dort and the 1689 confession and he says well tom those are standard uh...

hyper calvinistic texts and i just i was blown away that he would say that yeah yeah so in other words uh...

kelly they're really uh... they utilize the phrase but they they fill it with a non -historical meaning and then when i've challenged the cameras on this and you can read this in the correspondence they say well we just don't accept your sources we're biblicists and as if somehow uh...

you define hyper calvinism biblically yeah you know second opinions three twelve anybody to the right of me is a hyper calvinist that's right can i ask one more question?

yeah real quick we got uh... two other callers online well the question has to do with just the uh... the sbc presidency that's coming up as well a lot of the questions as reformed southern baptists is the question is is this splitting the convention uh...

what's the criteria even for a southern baptist president i hear a lot of criticism of what these guys' denominations are not but then i don't know what the criteria should be for a president so if you could answer that that would be great i appreciate talking to you guys thank you god bless yeah kelly it was a question what's the criteria for being an sbc president yes uh huh well there's there's not any real set criteria there's nothing spelled out you just have to be uh...

a member in good standing i guess you have to be in good standing you just have to be a member of a southern baptist church what's happened during the conservative resurgence over the last twenty five thirty years is that men have been elected to that position who have been movement conservatives almost without exception especially in the early days of that that is they were committed to making appointments on the committee on committees would be filled by people who are committed to the recovery of the authority of scripture and a lot of those pastors who were elected to the presidency during those years came from churches that had uh...

not real stellar records in terms of financial support to convention causes especially to the cooperative program which is kind of the uh...

the way the the collective way that churches pool their monies to support missions in theological education and other things but the reason that those men in their churches were not stellar supporters is because they've become convinced over the years that uh...

moderate is a more liberalism had infiltrated many of the sbc entities and institutions and they didn't want to spend their money send their money to support that so now then that the conservative movement has uh...

fully taken hold and seems to be intent in some respects and going more more right and more more narrow there's a recognition that the cooperative program isn't getting the kind of support it ought to have so now there's this backlash if we really need churches to support a corporate program the great heroes of the conservative movement were not start supporters for the corporate program it's a little bit difficult now to convince a new generation of leaders and pastors suddenly we all have to start giving ten percent or whatever to the corporate program so that's been one of the big issues particularly issue regarding ronnie floyd i don't know what the truth is it's been reported in think their statistics and indicate that his church in arkansas gave last year point two seven percent to the corporate program though they reported giving two million or something like that to missions to cause but they did it outside that uh...

recognized convention uh... hit on i was just uh...

while you're answering a question uh... looking at your blog and i don't know if you have uh...

refreshed uh... your page but a liberty student has uh... put a comment up and i've i felt like since we're on i need to address this uh...

she mentions uh... that's uh... there's a face book uh... site there the number of doctor kennedy students involved and says anyway it's my point a few students post on the message board of my group a few things that interested me this is during the time when they've gone silent uh...

number one the canner was the one trying to get a debate happening and to listen to that that canner couldn't get doctor white to agree because there is a problem or doctor white was upset he wasn't getting paid enough uh...

uh... anyone who reads the correspondence knows there's been no discussion of any type of honorarium at all and i i'd never ever ever expected have asked for any honorarium for this at all in fact as far as i can tell uh...

you and i get the foot on bill to get there but we haven't been offered uh... nothing has been said about honorariums other than said about the covering any cost travel putting us up as far as i could tell that was uh...

all good uh... which is offering me a ten spot in the window right now from the studio audience just got together and got ten bucks for me uh...

it wasn't until we agreed to double what you originally demanded yeah yeah there you go i i absolutely is that the comment goes on to say now i've absolutely no idea where they got these ideas from but i can only guess they came back and sell what we can't say that but let me tell anybody who's listening if if anyone has suggested uh...

that there is a monetary issue here uh... that is one of the most ridiculous things i've ever heard in the entirety of my life and we have posted that's another good reason there's another good reason to post the entirety of the correspondence because uh...

uh... that uh... demonstrates that that is not even been an issue that has come up let's uh...

talk with uh... david in austin texas i david i have a project doing good uh... what i've got hi david how are you from my home state there yeah yeah you're from austin area no uh...

i'm actually an aggie so austin is kind of outside my city limits there uh... i'm actually looking forward to the uh...

the subsequent debate between you and dr askell about the pc versus mac issue uh... well the one on compatible -ism uh...

uh... it takes me a second to do this thank you thank you uh...

my question had to do with the fact that uh... it seems like that uh... at least the way you determined that uh...

we've got no proof that he's that caners had really had any solid debate experience well that's just it that if you go to eric and caners uh...

website caners website you will see that he claims over sixty debates he calls himself uh...

he quotes the description of himself as the intellectual pit bull of the evangelical church and i've asked him and i asked him with honesty i i asked him look you're a former muslim i'm gonna be debating shabbir ali at biola university coming up in a couple months could you could you show me where your debates are i would like to learn from you you are a former muslim he would at first he would not even respond and finally when he did respond he said well we've just done some debates at some local colleges we don't run with the big dogs and that's it he wouldn't he wouldn't give me anymore information than that at all so i've tried i have honestly tried and i can't get any information it seems like that given his the possibility that he does not have as much formal debate experience at least as one might think that with uh...

someone like his name was o'donnell uh... with someone like that at his disposal i mean not only have o'donnell moderate the debate but also ask o'donnell to provide a format for the debate ask o'donnell to help him form a thesis statement you know what i think happened if you go back and read the correspondence you'll see that when that idea was interjected because they were saying we're not going to be limited by thesis we're not going to be limited by any format you know just bring it on man we want to be able to interrupt and not be limited by time all those statements are in the correspondence and it wasn't until the idea was brought up look you're on the campus of the award -winning debate team surely there's somebody on your faculty you can talk to exactly and what could be more limiting in time than only giving two and a half hours to do this i think uh...

probably there was some conversation and uh... may have moved it forward to at least where we are today but i can't believe that a legitimate debate coach or debate moderator would sign off on the thesis that they are forcing yeah i can't either i can't either that's but we haven't gotten any response from Dr.

O'Donnell yet i just wrote to him as Tom knows what i wrote to the whole group a couple hours ago and uh...

i've asked specific questions i want to understand specifically how this format is going to work the nature of the questions how you yield time frames i want a rule book i want a text uh...

i want to know this stuff because again as long as it's applied fairly fine but we need to have that information so i'm just waiting for the response and i've seen many debates i've never seen the parliamentary neither have i uh...

get on the bbc yeah watch the house of commons that's where it comes from yep yeah you guys wear the powdered wigs and that's right i'm willing to wear the kilt but uh...

you know i like the powdered wig with a little bit of a kilt well you can wear your cowboy stuff uh...

alright hey thanks for the call let's quick grab Keith in Jacksonville Florida uh...

hi james and tom uh... tom i know you from the founders uh... ministry we met last year i don't know if you remember me i'm a big guy and we met in tampa uh...

in tampa yeah you were at the uh... come on Tom yeah yeah yeah yeah Roy Margrave was uh...

preaching you were preaching and uh... right i was there i do remember yes i really enjoyed that and i am not a baptist i am a uh...

actually our church came out of the disciples of christ movement we are non -denominational now and uh... i've been introduced to the doctrine of grace about three and a half years ago and changed my life and changed my ministry and i think my church thinks i'm nuts but it's okay i just wanted to call and offer my prayers for you guys for the canter debate i hope that it goes uh...

well i'm sure that it will i hope that you don't get bit by the pit bull you know well again i think the only way that could happen uh...

is uh... uh... is if there is a some really outrageous behavior which i i just don't see happening our desire my desire certainly believe it's time there as well as that the people of god will be edified those who are already embrace uh...

uh... those biblical teachings will be encouraged and uh... those who maybe have heard uh... less than accurate representations of them uh...

would be uh... invited to uh... look more closely at what uh... what it's all about him and uh...

you know i honestly have seen many many times where individuals who who wanted to their behavior to attempt to uh...

castigate the truth that i was uh... i was i was presenting by their behavior actually ended up causing people to look more closely so i uh...

we we serve a sovereign god and uh... and uh... i don't have any concerns about that but we do definitely ask for one's prayer uh...

that this would be the best debate that it could be worthy the the word of god is central the truth is central in christ is honored also uh...

doctor white uh... you you you you rebutted her brevis you remember that yes her at his church is less than a mile from mine i thought that was wonderful i have all the way through that well i wasn't trying to make you laugh well i don't know i laughed at him well you know i would like to know that all calvinist believe babies are going to hell i said didn't john mccarthur right uh...

in the hands or if they can your god yeah but you can't make bold statement all the people of making both and i don't know but uh...

uh... anyway i look forward to seeing you guys a corporate crimes my wife and i are going to be there for a great uh...

thank you and i appreciate that we look forward to meeting you make sure to do so all right i got another call got to take care of and told i must do because this is a fellow named bill in a loss of oklahoma hey there j how do you sound a little bit familiar uh...

you know if he is familiar he's the older brother that refuses to repent and use macintosh uh...

division in the family and i have a lot of it and i've made clear on the blog i know way too much about computers to go back to america if i was ignorant of computers i'd jump right into the back of course world but i don't know too much about so uh...

what up but that's not what i called about up what i'm calling about is to make a suggestion to you fellas that you agree to the debate that uh...

as the canners have framed it though i'm very concerned about the way it's framed you agree to that provided that they allow for two debates and the second debate or first with depending on time frame take place at bethel baptist church in a loss of oklahoma where i'm senior pastor and uh...

and we can frame a thesis statement that uh... that makes sense in english and uh...

just have a wonderful time well you know i a certainly would be open to uh... to multiple debates of course uh...

just getting a date was difficult enough i mean i i sort of undertook to try to do that and i asked everybody what their uh...

schedule look like october and it it was terrible i mean trying to find uh...

uh... you know one day in their work up the four of us who are extremely busy traveling men were all the same place same time was uh...

was pretty difficult to do but honestly i'd people may think that i'm i'm being facetious here but i would love to have a debate uh...

i would love to do a one -on -one debate with eric in canner on john six nothing but john six let's just let's just open the text but uh...

how many people have i invited to do that over the course i mean norman geisler dave hunt so you start the list of of southern baptist pastors it's very very long when they when they speak out on these things and none of them will even respond to the email so uh...

the chances of uh... getting that to happen though we will certainly put your your name on the list there as possible locations uh...

uh... i'd like to tie it into a monday night before a founders conference meet here we could have a wonderful time auditorium doesn't sleep about a thousand people but i believe we could guarantee that it would be full and uh...

and folks would be excited to hear you you brother we might do something like the proposition resolved that jesus christ did the father's will now that's uh...

excellent uh... excellent the topic that i'd love to address but let's let's be perfectly honest here if there was a similar movement to the founders movement within the southern baptist going the other direction and they invited me with enough time for me to schedule of course i mean i'm i'm scheduling debates in may of two thousand seven but right but with enough time to do it if they invited me to come to one of their meetings i'd be happy to do it well i would be overjoyed to do it the other side is not willing to do that that's all there is to what do you think that is i'll let tom comment on that as well i think there is i i think there is i don't know i mean i could not honestly i could not do what i do if i did not have the willingness to defend my beliefs within those contexts i could not look at myself and honestly do what i do so i don't understand how it is that that someone can purposely try to keep a debate as short as possible because they are not confident their position i don't understand it i i've not experienced it by god's grace so i don't know i don't have an explanation for that either yeah i don't know i guess i find myself i'm i'm excited about the prospect of the debate we have several men from our church who are planning to drive over and that's no small drive from waso to lynchburg with several guys who plan to drive over in october to be there as they said so you fellows could see some friendly faces in the crowd and uh...

but i'm also concerned i think that uh... i think that there will be a lot of heat coming from one side of the platform and a lot of light from the other side of the platform uh...

fundamentalist with a capital f content doesn't typically impressed them it's uh...

it's how loud you shout how how big the vein stick out in your neck as you say it and uh...

i think that they'll be playing to a crowd like that but like you said earlier james i do believe coming out of this the scores if not possibly hundreds of calvinist will be made uh...

just just as they've been if they watch the if it was if the sound was turned down uh...

just as they watch the two sides present themselves yeah well that is that is my hope honestly i it's only reason i would i would go through all this is that god's word is not return void uh...

gods there are so many people who are who are just so longing for uh...

that kind of of in -depth the discussion the word of god and and and the fullness of uh...

the proclamation of a savior who actually saves he's not he's powerful he does not fail that rings in the hearts of believers when they get a chance to hear that's why i want to see it happen so uh...

bill thank you very much for your phone call today god bless you sir and uh... tom thank you very much tom thank you so much for joining me today believe it or not we actually went so far five minutes long uh...

just uh... just to make sure to get uh... that bill is what was that guy's last name of that was that uh... asphalt there i think there's an older is that an older brother it is i think i i heard some concern of an older brother for younger brother there i really feel that they're good and i think i want him in my corner and i think i think i think that well tom thank you so much for joining us today like i said we set all sorts of new records uh...

we just about took our server down all the people who are listening at once and uh... some tells me the archives going to get hit really really hard this uh...

this time around but i appreciate all that and brother you keep praying for me and i'll pray for you will be patient and uh...

will uh... look forward to what uh... the lord has for us not only in october but there it's a beginning of november november as well project like thank you very much god blesses you but uh...

i've got a all right thank you very much everybody for listening to the program today it was uh...

a fast hour and five minutes or so thank you to the studio audience uh... let's uh... and that's the audience therefore is that there is that there are a lot of golf class i've heard one thanks uh...