Dead Men Walking #131 Octavio Sanchez: From Oneness Pentecostalism to Reformed Presbyterian

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00:19

Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of Dead Men Walking Podcast. Thanks for coming along with us on the ride.

00:25

Thanks for checking out dmwpodcast .com where you can check out our merch. You can find out a little bit more about Jason and I, just me in studio, but we do have a special guest here.

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We're going to get to him in a minute, but first, this episode is brought to you by Jacobs Supply right here in Temperance, Michigan.

00:40

This guy's a brother in the Lord. Absolutely love him. He brings you quality building products at wholesale prices.

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It's pretty awesome. I mean, appliances, building supplies, metal roofs, blocks, fascia, all that kind of stuff.

00:53

Even if you're listening in like Ohio or Indiana and you're a few hours away, come see him because he passes on the savings to you.

01:01

He buys out wholesale, passes it on to you, and you get a great deal. All right, cool. Also reformedsage .com,

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friends of ours, Nick, met him down at a Fight Laugh Feast a few years ago. Has all kinds of snarky t -shirts, bookmarks, coasters, and he also has reformedroasters .com

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which if you've got a coffee itch, go check out the John Kelvin roast. Absolutely good.

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It's a little dark, but it's good. See what I did there? Yeah. I like that. Yeah. So Nick, we thank you for sponsoring the show as well at reformedsage and reformedroasters .com.

01:38

Cool. Now that we got the business out of the way, we have a special guest in studio with us and I think we're going to have fun tonight.

01:45

It's a great episode, Octavio, not Octavio, right? No, not Octavio. Octavio. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:51

See, I said Octavio. Octavio, how are you, sir? I'm doing very well. I'm doing very well. Yeah. So we go to church together.

01:57

We just met not too long ago, a couple months ago, and it was kind of cool because we just kind of hit it off.

02:05

I think we're both kind of talkers, right? Yeah. We were just at a cookout last week, a 4th of July kind of belated cookout, barbecue, and we just sat there and talked for like an hour and our wives were like, aren't we the ones that are supposed to just talk for an hour?

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Instead we're just chopping it up, you know, talking about theology, doctrine, and all this stuff. But I wanted to have you in here because you kind of have an interesting story.

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You mentioned that you had come out of oneness Pentecostalism, and now you're in a reformed evangelical

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Presbyterian church. That's a pretty big jump, right? And if anyone's listened for any amount of time on this podcast, they know that I've talked about my journey from, you know, basically fundamental

02:49

Baptist and swaying into in my teen years into like a Toronto blessing Bethel Pentecostal church.

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And then really when the Lord saved me at 24, said the sinner's prayer at seven, saved at 24, started reading the

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Bible and realized, oh, this reformed thing is just what the Bible says, right? This is what

03:08

I believe in and really was a closeted Calvinist for almost 10 years as I tell people because I was taught, hey, those guys have some good things to say, but basically stay away from them.

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They don't, you know, we don't want any part of that. And then I realized, oh, no, they're biblical. So my, my leap from legalism,

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Pentecostalism, and then into reformed theology was a big one for me. It was like a personal struggle.

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You know what I mean? Like I would like, I was like scared to admit to my other Christian friends what I believed.

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I thought it was like I was in some type of weirdo or heretic. And like I said, for a long time,

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I, uh, you know, I, I started realizing like, wait a minute, Charles Spurgeon is reformed. Jonathan Edwards reformed.

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The guy who wrote Pilgrim's Progress is reformed. Wait a minute. John Newton, the guy who wrote Amazing Grace is reformed. Wait, Matthew Henry, the commenter

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I use, he was reformed by J .C. Ryle. J .C. Ryle, like all these guys that I'd grown up with and learned about, wait, they're reformed in their theology, right?

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So I wanted to talk to you and I think the listeners would really benefit from this because this is something we haven't really touched on.

04:10

We touch on like the crazy, uh, you know, new apostolic reformation guys, the

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Bethel guys. Uh, we touch on, uh, you know, the woke -ism and the crazy left stuff, but we really haven't talked to anyone who had come out of like oneness

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Pentecostalism, which I think is even different than, I don't want to say mainstream. I don't want to downplay, but like,

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I feel like oneness is the minority within Pentecostalism now. Probably less people believe that.

04:36

Right. Yeah. Um, so why don't you tell people a little bit about yourself first?

04:41

Maybe give us a little, your testimony or bio or what you're all about. And then we'll just like get into it and we'll just chop it up about oneness and how you got reformed.

04:50

Thank you. Yeah. Well, first Greg, thank you for letting me come on. Uh, I feel humbled by saying very special guest cause

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I'm like, I'm just a normal dude, you know? Me too though. Oh, we say that for every guest though. That's awesome.

05:01

That's great. I say every guest is special. Everyone's special. Don't feel bad. We all get gold stars. Um, so I grew up.

05:09

Everyone gets a trophy. Everyone gets a trophy. Yeah. So I grew up on the East side of Toledo. Um, my, uh, my great grandmother, uh, raised me.

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That's a whole nother story in itself. Okay. Um, so we'll try to shorten it up right there. And, uh, essentially she was raised

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Catholic for a while and later on her father became Baptist and so I kind of had this mishmash of, uh, that's a big swing.

05:36

Yeah. Nominal Christian ism in my home. Um, there was a lot of other things mixed in with it too.

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Um, not like, you know, dark magic, but there was like all kinds of superstitious stuff mixed in there and everything.

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And so fast forward a little bit, um, after I gave my life to God, which is another really cool story.

06:01

Um, well you can tell it if you want. I would say, okay, so yeah, real quick. Um, it's kind of what we do here.

06:07

Yeah. So, but I mean, but it's long. And so I'll try, I'll try to be as concise as possible.

06:12

Give us the cliffs notes. Right. So I ended up in Louisiana. Okay. And that was where I met my wife and she had like one foot in the church, one foot out the church.

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Okay. She knew she wanted to raise her daughter, you know, to love God. And I came in the picture and, uh, was really messing that up and didn't realize

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I was for a long time, uh, a few months. And, uh, it came down to, she told me,

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Hey, look, either you're going to be with me and, you know, raising my daughter to serve God, or you're going to have to move on.

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And I was like, Oh, okay, well, whatever, you know, um, but I ended up visiting church with her at her friend at her church.

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And then later on went to visit, uh, at her French church was, that was my first exposure to one that's

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Pentecostalism. And so, and is that where your future wife, yes, that's when we landed girlfriend.

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Okay. That she was attending there. That not regularly. Okay. She didn't understand. Yeah. Just popping in once in a while.

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It was just another church to her. She didn't know. Okay. She didn't know a lot of stuff about, you know, specific theological stuff.

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Like most of us, you know, when we first come to God, most Christians, I would say, even right now, even currently can't even explain their own denomination.

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Not at all. Nope. Um, I don't even think they understand there's still a Protestant reformation, like, um, but so yeah, and I ended up visiting with her there and what, what hit me and what really drew me in was the week before we were talking about the

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Bible and I was criticizing it for all of its contradictions, my pagan mind.

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And, you know, she was really upset and we ended up going to church that Sunday.

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And the first sermon that I heard was on contradictions in the Bible and the

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Lord knew, yes, divine providence, baby. Exactly. And he hit me hard.

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Yeah. Who are you? Oh man. Right. Just straight from Romans. Sure. Who are you? Oh man.

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You know, to answer back to God. And that's when I realized like, oh man,

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I'm nothing, I'm nothing, right. You know? And so what confuses the story is, so yeah,

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I hear that is preaching against sin. And I'm seeing very clearly now that I need

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Jesus, I have a need for God. And the only answer to that is Jesus Christ and in his death, right.

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Because all that was presented in there, it was a really clear. So it was truth. Yes, it was. It was. Gospel saves.

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Exactly. But then when I go up to pray, the gentleman puts his hand on my head and starts speaking in tongues.

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Right. And you know, I saw some of that the week before because we had visited before.

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Was it like this? Very much. Okay. Very much like that.

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Something about driving a Hyundai, you know, tying a bow tie or something like that. And he's like, you know, he leans in and he says, you know, just got to pray and let the spirit take control and let your tongue loose and you're going to start to speak in a tongue that you don't know that you have not been taught.

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And I was like, 60 % of the time it works every time. That's Pentecostal's mission statement.

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Exactly. And I'm like, oh, really? I'm thinking of my head because I'm a wreck.

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Yeah. Right. Right. Right. I'm a wreck at this point. I'm balling out of control. Anita Christ. Know your center.

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You got the music going. Right. And everything. And so my emotions are, you know, hindsight is 20 -20.

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We're really being played upon in that moment. And I'm just like, you know,

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I'm just confusing you. And then, so everything like I'm there for probably like, I feels like forever, you know, maybe just a few minutes.

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I don't know. Sure. And when it's all said and done, he's like, you know, don't worry. Maybe you may, maybe next week.

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So right then there was like such an emphasis on tongues. Yeah. Right. Like, well, you failed this week.

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Maybe next week. So was there any concern at all for you, for your salvation at all?

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Nobody took me to the side. Nobody had a conversation with me. Nobody spoke to me.

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It was looking back on it. Exactly. When I look back on it, I'm like, man, that's messed up.

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You know, because, you know, I look at, I see situations now where people are really broken and torn up and they need the news.

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Right. They need the gospel. Yeah. You know, they're already feeling beat up and tore down. You know, they need, they need to be encouraged that there's an answer to what they're going through in that moment, you know?

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Yeah. Or just make Christ the central part of the gospel. Exactly. Not necessarily a gift.

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Exactly. And so, and that's the thing too, is looking back on that now, it's like, so here's the gospel. Here's this clear, you know, expression of, you know, sin,

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God, creature, distinction laid out. Yep. All this stuff is there.

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There's so many good things about it. But then when it came down to really being, you know, encouraged in the

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Lord, it was like, well, you know, he didn't speak in tongues. So I guess we just got to wait till next week.

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It's like, there was no attempt to like make them, you know, have a meeting later. You know, like, hey, let me meet with you. Right.

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None of that. This is what we do. And this is the way it goes. This is the way it goes. And you're like probably raw and open and like fresh and as a believer and, you know, immature or new in your faith.

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Yeah. And you're like, oh, okay. This is because my wife has a similar, similar thing with that.

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When she came back to the Lord and we first got married, it was the same thing. We were going to a church that was more Pentecostal leaning.

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And she had one of the, one of those little gray hairs that have been there forever and was like, you need to speak in tongues.

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And if you don't, right. That's an evidence. I mean, she was, she was hardcore penny. I mean, she was like, if you don't speak in tongues, that's not, you might not even be saved.

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Yeah. That's an evidence of salvation. You know, the spirits work. And if you don't have these gifts, and it really messed her up for like the first couple years of our marriage, like I'm, I'm new and struggling through this reform thing.

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She's going, you know, why don't I have tongues? Like, am I a secondary second -class

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Christian? Right. Right. Am I not godly enough? Am I not holy enough? Like, why can't I do this? Yeah.

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And it was a real, it really messes with your, with your mind. So you had that experience and then what?

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You started attending that church? So from there, me being the way God made me, um,

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I just got real determined. You're like, I'm going to get my tongue. Exactly. I got really determined.

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I'm on the best tongues you ever saw, son. Exactly. And, and it's funny when you put it like that, because that really was my attitude is like, okay,

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I know I need God and I'm going to get God. Right. If this is what it means, because I didn't know, you know,

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I grew up with my mother writing down prayers, putting them under a candle, lighting the candle, and then taking the prayer out from under it, burning it and saying, you know, don't let the smoke go too far.

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Right. A little bit of that stuff because you'll lose the blessing basically. Yeah. You know, a little bit of Catholic mysticism back in the day.

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Yeah. And I was taught like when you put the candle out, you got to use your fingers because if you blow it, right.

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The smoke and the blessing goes away. Yeah. So, and so I have no framework to understand what it is that I'm supposed to be pursuing now, but I legitimately, uh, for lack of better terms, cause

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I'm not Mormon. I had this burning. Yeah. In my bosom, you know, you know, we had heard the gospel.

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Yeah. And I'm like, okay. I need, and I remember like this. So I don't,

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I can't, I just remember there being a lot of conversation after that, after that, between me and my wife leading up to it.

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And I remember me telling her like, look, I'm ready to serve God. I'm ready to serve God. Cause I honestly think like not too long after that,

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I was walking home. Something to that effect. I was one. No, no, no, no. This is later. I'm sorry. I'm being confused now.

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This is later. But, um, and so, uh, the following week comes and I'm up there praying again.

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I'm all right. This time I'm gonna do it. Right. You know, this is what the, this is what the preacher said

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I need to do. And so I'm going to do it. And I get up there. Star Wars. Return of the tongues. Yeah.

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Oh, and he goes to, he goes to put his hand on me and he says, it doesn't take much.

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It doesn't take much. All it needs to be is a little utterance. And I was like, okay. Yeah. I can always remember.

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Like, it's exactly what it does. Like he's starting a moped. What's going on?

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Yeah. It was something like that. And he's like, there you go. Let it go. Let it go. And I was just like, Oh my goodness.

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I look back on it. It's so cringe. It is so cringy. I've had times like that in my life.

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Yeah, exactly. And so from, from there, you know, it's funny because me and my wife were living in the you know, she has this little girl from a previous relationship.

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And part of that too, on a, you know, uh, way winding back a little bit, what really motivated me to want to start going is like, after she gave me that challenge,

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I was watching Mariana cause I would watch her when she'd go to work and we're playing around and Mariana just called me daddy.

15:59

Yeah. And I was like, Oh dang. Yeah. It's getting serious. Yeah. I'm a pothead.

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I'm running the streets. I'm going to the club. Right. And I'm just like, I'm not good enough to be a dad.

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And it was literally like, I started praying, like, gosh, show me what it's like to be a father. Wow. And I don't know.

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I don't know what in me, you know, it's, it's, it's what we know it was

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God in you. It was, you know what I mean? Exactly. And so I think even before, like I heard that sermon and stuff like that, you know, 100 %

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God in this weird situation, there was a time before that. Now I'm going on a tangent, but you know,

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I just, I see God's work and all that. And all these different things is, you know, I was, uh, I was really messed up on drugs.

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And I remember laying in the middle of the street, looking up at the, at the stars. And I'm just like,

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God, if you're there, can you please help me? Yeah. Cause I want to die right now. Right. You know? And everyone else is having fun around me and stuff like we're, we're in Genesee, Louisiana.

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This is a small town, you know? And so it's legitimately like the thing to get high and hang out on the block. Yeah. That's what they do.

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Yep. And so, you know, just like, you know, on the East side of Toledo, you know what I mean? But it's like, everybody knows each other. And so it's like a real tight community.

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Everybody knows each other and stuff. And so, you know, it's not necessarily safe, you know, but it's like, that's just what we were doing.

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So I, you know, I can go back way back and just like talk about all these different things that were,

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I look back and I'm like, man, God was so kind to me. Yeah. God was so kind. Gracious for sure. Exactly.

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Same with me. You know? So now getting back, you know, the following week comes, he puts his hands on me, you know, start talking like a motorbike and he's like, that's it.

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That's it. You got to. I'm like, yes, I'm so jazzed up. I'm like ready, you know, and then

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I'm walking back and home because I think at this time I left.

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Yeah. I had left Marlisa because Marlisa was like, I'm not going to church this week. I'm just going to watch church on TV.

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Yeah. You know, because that's what Christians do. When they don't feel like going to church, I guess. Right. You know? And I was like, all right,

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I'm going to go to church. Right. And that was funny because that was actually an argument. And that was really weird. Like I wasn't even married or anything, but like I said, again, these little things that God was putting in.

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So already having deep convictions about that. Like we. Yeah. You know? And, and I'm walking home and I'm like jazzed up, happy.

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And what do I do? I go to the block. Yeah. And I just start talking about what happened, you know, and I'm hanging on in the streets, you know, talking about everybody, everybody's like,

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Oh man, that's cool, man. That's cool, man. You know? And they, uh, passed me the blunt and I hit it.

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And I'm like, man, what am I doing? Right. You know? And just again, like someone was in was like, Oh man, that's not,

18:52

I shouldn't be doing this. You know? I was like, look, I got to go, man. You know, I don't, I don't really think I can be.

18:57

I told him, I was like, I don't, I don't think I should be smoking weed no more. And my dude, uh, Wilbert, he was like, yeah, do

19:05

Wilbert down south. That's how you know you're down south. He goes, uh, he goes, man, you, you really is acting different.

19:13

I never known you to be like that. And I was, you know, never known you to pass up a blunt. Yeah, exactly.

19:18

Yeah. And he was like, man, go ahead, man. Get out of here. You know, he didn't make no big deal. He's just like, go on ahead. You know,

19:24

I think down there is like a lot of people are exposed to church and stuff. It's kind of messed up because like, it's sad because everybody knows the truth to some extent in a different way than up here in this region.

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You know what I mean? We got some guys that we're friends with that run a podcast called Big Foot Revival and that's their whole podcast.

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They go and they're out of South Carolina and they go, everyone down here says they believe in God. They believe in Jesus. They've been exposed, but there's no true real, you know, faith shown or, you know, but everyone.

19:54

Oh yeah. Yeah. Lip service. And that's, that's exactly what you're saying. Like in that geographical area, it's more of a, yeah, we just say it, but we don't act it out or actually believe it.

20:05

Right. Right. Exactly. And so, you know, I, I get to the apartment and I'm talking to Marlisa about church and she was like,

20:13

I think if I remember correctly, she was like, are you high? I was like, oh, well, you see on my way back from church, she's like, you're talking about you want to serve

20:22

God and this and that. Right. And I'm like, I just thought it was like, look, I know I messed up. I know.

20:28

You're like, I can't help it. I don't have my tongues yet. Exactly. Right. Exactly. No, but this time I did. Okay. Yeah. So, but I think that also speaks to the actual value of speaking in tongues.

20:39

Yeah. Tongues are so powerful. Yeah. Right. You know what I'm saying? It's not tongues we need.

20:44

It's truth. Right. It's truth that we need. Yeah. That's what we need. We need the truth, you know? And so I just told her, look,

20:50

I know I'm sorry I messed up, but I really do feel, I was like, even that, like, I know I shouldn't have did it. And that's weird because I don't have any logical reason why

20:57

I shouldn't be smoking weed. Right. I really don't. I was like, but please, like, forgive me and just trust me.

21:03

I'm really trying to do different now. Right. I'm for real trying to do different. Yeah. She's like, all right. Let's see. We'll see.

21:10

We'll see. Exactly. And so, you know, trying to make a long story short, we were there.

21:18

That was late. Yeah, that was 2009.

21:25

Yeah. Because that was December. That was December of 2008. That was December of 2008.

21:30

So do you guys start attending there regularly? Pretty much. Yeah. She wanted me to go to the Baptist church that she was going to.

21:38

But I was, you know, really convinced that, you know, this is where I first spoke in tongues.

21:44

This is where I first heard the gospel. This is where I first heard the good news. This is where we need to go. So what was your headspace?

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Like, is it like, I was saved in this church. I'm kind of, are you kind of like iffy on the whole theology of tongues and all that and just go, but this must be something because clearly

22:03

I have a church full of people that believe this and I had experience here. Like, where's your head at in that?

22:09

Are you struggling with the doctrine and theology of that church? Are you going, well, this must be right or I'm absolutely against it, but I'm just staying there because this is where we kind of know where we at.

22:20

No, I think it was easy for me to accept all of it because I had no framework. Okay. Yeah. You know? And so because I didn't have a reference point because I didn't have any framework to look back on.

22:32

I heard a lot of preaching about the power of God and so I'm like, okay, well, this must be the power of God, you know?

22:41

And this is, this must mean what it looks like. And it's interesting because from that point forward,

22:47

I spent a lot of time trying to embrace the gifts. Yeah.

22:52

You know? Chase after them. Chase after them. Pursue them. You know, looking for the power of God, but it really wasn't until I started going to Christ the

23:03

Word that I really had an understanding of what the power of God should look like in your life. Yeah. And I know that's a big jump, but we got a lot more in between there we could.

23:10

So, so was, so what are, just for people listening, like oneness,

23:16

Pentecostalism, what is kind of the core doctrines of that denomination and what, what would it, how would it be different from someone who is like a classic

23:26

Trinitarian or something like that? Like, what are some of the teachings that you received or some of the things they told you? Okay.

23:31

So yeah, I'm going to try to answer that in story form a little bit. Okay. So from there,

23:38

I felt like, okay, I'm a man now, I got to be a man, I got to take responsibility and I knew

23:46

I needed to do something. So I decided to join the military. Okay. And I remember when

23:52

I told the pastor, I don't remember exactly what the timeframe was because it was quick. I was in and out the military that fast.

23:59

I was in and out that quick, like less than five months. You went in and they were like, we don't want you. No, no. So I got an entry level separation was just basically, this is, so this is now officially on audio.

24:09

So nobody asked me about my military service anymore. Okay. It's not like, you know, but yeah, so what happens is like, if you're in for less than five months, you can file like a petition to get out.

24:23

Okay. They tried to get me to claim like, you know, you know, mental distress, you know, basically saying all these things.

24:29

And I was like, you know, it was like, I'm not crazy. Right. I do really believe that this is an, in a bad decision.

24:36

You know what I'm saying? Sure. But anyway, so when I've won, when I went to make that decision, I told the pastor and he was like, what is wrong with you?

24:43

Why are you doing that? And I just remember being confused, like, Whoa, why are you joining or why are you getting out?

24:49

Why are you joining? Okay. He's like, why are you, why would you do that? And I'm like, what's wrong with that? And he was like,

24:54

I'm your pastor. And I was like, yeah. And what's that supposed to mean? Right. I mean, just like,

25:00

I literally said just like that. I was like, yeah. And what's that supposed to mean? And he had this befuddled look on his face, like, Oh man, like, you're supposed to talk to me about these kinds of things.

25:09

And I was like, why? I can't make a decision on my own. Right. You know? And then that's when I, but that's when

25:14

I started to realize is I'm going to look back on it as like, for all the faults that were there, right.

25:20

They did have a strong idea of authority and submission, whether or not it was right.

25:31

Whether or not their idea of it was right or wrong. I don't know. But, you know, looking on it, looking back at it now,

25:37

I'm like, you know what, that was a good thing for him to actually want to know what was going on. Sure. You know, maybe there should have been more done on the front end.

25:46

You know what I'm saying? To actually like disciple and bring people along. But it wasn't until I told him that I was getting ready to leave and go to the military that he was like, all right, we got a lot of work to do.

25:55

Right. I was like, okay. And so he immediately, he signed me up for these classes, you know, like basically membership classes and talk about theology and doctrine.

26:03

And that's when I first heard the oneness of God. Okay. And it was, I don't remember what lesson it was, what, but it was like a few weeks, probably like four or five, maybe six weeks long or something like that.

26:18

And he got to the oneness of God. And the way he described the Trinity to me was three persons, three beans.

26:24

And he was like, so essentially, if you believe in the Trinity, you believe in three guys. Right. I don't want to believe that.

26:31

Right. You know, I don't want to believe it. Not a polytheist. Exactly. You know, and, and it was, it was really weird the way he described it, because, you know, he knew what he believed and he was prepared for everything, even before I had questions.

26:52

An objection or question. Even before I had an objection, like he had me sold right there because I didn't know what the

26:58

Trinity was. I didn't understand what the Trinity was. I had heard it before a long time ago. It didn't make sense to me when

27:04

I was in like, you know, second grade. Yeah. You're burning, you're burning prayers under a candle.

27:09

Exactly. You know what I'm saying? Exactly. And so, and so I, I was just like, yeah, you know, he had me there, but he was, he was very prepared.

27:17

And he, I remember one of the first scriptures that he went to, and it was like, you know, some people would bring this up as an objection, as an objection.

27:22

He went to John one is like, in the beginning was God in the beginning was the word. The word was with God and the word was

27:28

God. Right. Yeah. And the way he described it, he did bring up the

27:34

Greek and how that means face to face, but he said it wasn't a literal position.

27:40

Like it wasn't literally faith. He's like, God can't face himself. Right. And I was like,

27:47

Oh, okay. Like he's bringing up things I'm not even thinking about. Sure. You know, I just know I don't want to believe in three gods.

27:52

Right. You know? And so he's going way deeper than what I'm expecting to do. And he, and then he goes to John 17, father, glorify me with the glory that I have with you from eternity.

28:04

And, and I'm like, Oh man, it was like, and that, that is the spirit speaking to the flesh.

28:12

And I was like, Oh, okay. All right. Right. Sounds plausible. Why not? You know?

28:17

Yeah. And, and so I just, like I said, for me, it was, it was easy because I didn't want to believe in three gods.

28:26

Sure. And so he's bringing out all these other scriptures and stuff that I'm not even really thinking about. And, but later on,

28:33

I actually began to lay a foundation that as I began to be more frustrated with other areas or other areas in my life that I was struggling with,

28:41

I started to begin, I started to think more about these things also. Okay. So why do you think that is?

28:48

I just, I think that the spirit works and wills as he pleases.

28:55

Yeah. And I know this probably sounds very heady, but it's the only way

29:01

I know how to explain it. Um, and coming alive in the Lord, uh, is a process and, you know,

29:10

God is patient and he's kind. And, and, you know, essentially the, the

29:16

Holy Spirit didn't give me rest in my sin. Right. Yeah.

29:22

And so I'm - It normally doesn't. Right. Yeah. And so I'm, you know, chasing tongues, chasing prophecy, chasing, you know, special divine revelation and all this other stuff.

29:31

But all the while, it's like, I'm still struggling with sin, you know? Yeah. Yeah. There was a couple of times after that, I slipped back into smoking weed, not like long term, but that doesn't matter.

29:40

You know? Right. Um, I had, um, you know, struggled with, you know, pornography and stuff, you know?

29:49

Sure. And it was like, where's the, where's the victory at? You know?

29:54

Yeah. And, and so, um - Well, I would just say really quick too, is like a lot of times in Pentecostalism too, it's always based on like, it's almost a little bit of Catholic and works based, like you have to have a victory.

30:08

Absolutely. And so like, what, like you didn't do this and you did do that instead of recognize that we are wretched, depraved sinners.

30:14

And Paul says, we will struggle with sin daily, wrestle with the flesh daily. That does that mean now we keep sinning so grace keeps abounding?

30:22

Absolutely not. But there's a lot of, because my cohost on here, Jason, who isn't here with us tonight, he came out of the same thing, fundamental

30:30

Baptist with it was very, and then he got into, he got into Bethel for like five or six years and it was very like, like, what did you accomplish?

30:37

Like, what did you do? Like, like it was just, it was very demoralizing too, because you fail.

30:44

Right. Exactly. You know what I mean? And it's like, oh no, if you've got, if you've got the baptism of the Holy Spirit and you're a miracle worker and you have, you can heal and you've got all these gifts, like, no, you shouldn't be doing that.

30:55

Yes. You see, here's the thing is like your salvation is either monogistic or synergistic.

31:03

That's, that's the only two options we got. Right. Either the Holy Spirit does all the initial work in you. And then from there you do have to partake in, in your sanctification, you know, or sanctification is participatory.

31:16

If I said that right, whatever. Yeah. Sounds good to me. Yeah. Right. We'll go with it. But essentially, you know, all unbiblical salvation can be thrown into the category of synergistic.

31:30

Sure. You have to do something with the work of Christ in addition to the work, in addition to, to the work that Christ did.

31:37

Right. And, you know, obviously, you know, Islam is way over here. Right.

31:43

Mormonism is way over here. Sure. You know, Jehovah's Witnesses is way over here. True heart, true, hardcore dogma

31:50

Catholicism is over there, too, exactly. You know, and then along with, you know,

31:56

Arminianism, you know, and all that stuff. And so the thing is, and I would say that, what's the other one you have,

32:05

Arminianism, but then what's the hardcore version of, I can't remember what it's called, starts with a P. I can't, my mind's drawing a blank right now.

32:11

I can't think of what it is. Well, I mean, kind of in the middle is like kind of Molinism, but you're saying farther. Yeah, farther than that.

32:17

I can't remember what it's called right now. Pelagianism. Okay. Yeah. Pelagianist. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, and in the, in the

32:24

Pentecostal camp, you really only have, you're either a straight up Pelagianist, semi -Pelagianist, or Arminian.

32:31

So there's your spectrum. Right. Then, you know, and, and so, yeah, while Arminianism may be, you know, a couple steps removed because they're, you know, arguing different things that, you know, it's like, no, we're saying

32:46

God does the whole thing. Period. Right. Yeah. You know. Well, the Bible's saying.

32:51

The Bible says that. Right. The Bible's saying that God does the whole thing. Author and finisher of your faith. Exactly. Author and the finisher of your faith.

32:57

Right. It's still, if, if you don't know where to look for the arguments, it's hard, it's, it's hard to really discern like.

33:04

Yeah. How, how it can lead to Pelagianism and stuff like that.

33:09

Well, I've got to imagine too, if you have no real context, you're a new Christian. Right. You go, look it, I don't want to worship three gods.

33:14

And you read through the Bible and it's like, the Lord our God is one. Exactly. I mean, you go, you go to the Old Testament.

33:20

Exactly. It's like one, one, one. Right. Yep. And you're not truly, you know, you're not talked through or explained about the difference between personhood and being and those types of things too.

33:31

Oh, even that, the personhood thing. Yeah. The way they, the way they explain that is so like, milly mouth.

33:37

You know, like person could actually be understand in the Latin of persona or something like that.

33:43

I forget. I can't remember if they go to the Latin or the Greek or something. Like a reflection of an image of. Yeah. Yeah. The reflection and all this stuff.

33:49

And I'm just like, you know, so I'm hearing all this stuff and I'm just like, I just want to be saved. Right. Right. Right.

33:55

Right. You know? And like I said, you know, in the goodness of God and the kindness of God, not giving me rest in my sin, right.

34:02

Leaving me disturbed, so to speak. You know, I knew, you know, years into this, cause it wasn't like five years of that.

34:11

Okay. You know, almost six years of that, um, before I was just like, I'm ready to give up.

34:17

Okay. I'm ready to give up. So was that like the determining factor? Just like, I don't feel like I'm moving forward at all.

34:22

I'm still struggling. Absolutely. I'm not, you know, we say sanctification is a process and there's, there's,

34:28

I don't see any growth or sanctification. Is that, so let's shift to there. Is that what kind of brought you into your journey from oneness into the reformed camp or like what was that in between period like?

34:41

So we end up. Are you struggling with stuff or are you just going, Hey. So we ended up moving back to Toledo after I get, after I get out of the military, you know?

34:49

Okay. So I got through basic tech school. Did your long five month stint? Did my long five month stint.

34:55

And we moved. Thank you for your service. Yeah. Stop, bro. You knew that was going to get my goat, bro.

35:04

But uh, I'm kicking the mic everywhere, sorry. Get me riled up. So, uh, yeah, we, we moved back to Ohio because I hear about a job doing insulation.

35:15

And so we look for a church that's connected to the church from down there. And that's where we end up at life chapel. Okay. And so, and, and, uh, landing there.

35:25

Same denomination you're saying? Same denomination. Different church. Yeah. Right. And that's how we ended up there.

35:30

And over the course of that time, I went from, you know, being an insulator to, uh, ended up because I got laid off twice there, ended up in fast food, kind of wanted to meandered around and, you know, doing different types of construction stuff and fast food.

35:46

Sure. And then I ended up on the assembly line at MOBIS, AKA Chrysler. Okay. So same line, different building.

35:54

Um, and again, in God's providence, he brings somebody my way.

36:00

A reformed Baptist, no reference point. When he told me that I was like, reformed or what?

36:06

Right. Right. You're like what? Yeah. Like I heard Baptist. I'm like, yeah. Okay. I know what that means. Right. Right. You guys only dip.

36:13

I believe in dipping. You know, we dip too, you know, we ain't

36:19

Catholic, you know? And so we're talking and so I was there for like, you know, two and a half, almost three years.

36:29

And, um, and in that, within that first year, there was a lot of arguing back and forth between, uh, about tongues, baptism,

36:41

Jesus name baptism, but he was so good to keep it about Jesus.

36:48

Right. He always brought, and that's my friend, Adam, never knew how to pronounce his last name because it's

36:54

Polish or German. Okay. So I'm not going to try it here in slaughter. Adam's good enough. Yeah. But, uh, that was my friend,

37:01

Adam, and he, um, he always, uh, always brought it back to Jesus and, uh,

37:09

I can't remember how many months it was, but he were gotten to another discussion about something.

37:16

This is at work at work on the assembly because it's the assembly line. So there's all kinds of goofing off you can do when you're supposed to be working long shifts.

37:24

Exactly. You know? And so, uh, he's actually on his, I'm on my way to my break and he stops me and he's like, listen,

37:30

Octavio, I think you're a really solid dude. I really do. But at the end of the day, the Jesus you worship either existed from eternity with the father or he didn't.

37:40

Yeah. And I was like, I never thought about it like that. Yeah. That's interesting. And while we were having all these arguments and stuff, he would point me to all these different reformed teachers to listen to on podcasts.

37:51

Cause that's when podcasts was really starting to jump off 2011, 2012 had been around before that, but it was really popping off around that time or starting to anyways.

38:00

And so, you know, I was listening to, you know, James White, RC Sproul, like you name, you name him.

38:06

Um, uh, so I was listening to, you know, all kinds of dudes like off and on. I wasn't like sold in, you know,

38:13

I had my self help Chris Valentin. I know you did a podcast recently on him. You know,

38:19

I had, you know, my charismatics and stuff that I was listening to more faithfully, you know, and every once in a while I'll pick one of them up.

38:25

And I remember listening to James White on several occasions and just being like, I don't understand what he's saying.

38:33

What the heck is he saying? You know? For sure. And again, looking back on that, it was like, because I've never been engaged intellectually before.

38:42

Right. And so I didn't even know what a good sound argument was. Right. I only knew, or it sounds like you had the pre package talking points of that denomination.

38:50

Like with your past, like, Oh, some people say this, but we say that exactly right. To being challenged on maybe a different view of something.

38:57

Exactly. Yup. And so I'm slowly being exposed to this idea of the sovereignty of God.

39:02

I'm slowly being exposed to the idea of being elected, you know, while I'm being challenged on who's the

39:10

Jesus you worship. Yeah. You know, real quick, let me back up. So what, what was like, when you were at that church and you're in oneness, what do they, who do they say

39:19

Jesus is that? If he's not, if he's not God and deity and like, what are you, what are you worshiping?

39:26

What's their reasoning? So that's, that's a great question. So here's, so there's, you have apostolics, right?

39:36

And then, and then you have your oneness Pentecostals.

39:41

And then you have like your, your Kojic, you know, Church of God in Christ, right?

39:48

Very similar. And I can't tell you, you know, how they differ. I can only speak, you know, specifically to the

39:55

United Pentecostal Church International. That was the denomination I was a part of. So this is the stream of oneness that I was adhering to.

40:06

Okay. All right. And so essentially what, what they believed is that there is one

40:12

God who is Jesus, who manifest as the father in creation, the son in redemption and the

40:21

Holy spirit in regeneration. That's how they would describe it. And so it really is like,

40:28

I guess you could say old school modalism, like really, really old school. Like one of the other denominations,

40:33

I don't know which one would say, no, it's the father, right. Who becomes a son and then the spirit, right.

40:39

They hold more closely to know it's, it's, it's the son. So there's basically like different modes of God.

40:46

It's Jesus. I wouldn't, I shouldn't even say it's the son. It's Jesus. It's Christ. It's Jesus. And he becomes each one to accomplish whatever.

40:53

Exactly. Okay. Exactly. Which even that, if you really think about it, it doesn't make any sense because like, so he stops being the father, he stops being the son.

41:02

Yeah. And so the father has not a body like man, but neither does the

41:07

Holy spirit. Right. So does, does he sis, does he cease to exist in heaven?

41:12

Right. You know? And so all those things, they'll just try to brush away. Well, we'll know because God's on my present and I'm like, okay.

41:19

And now knowing what I know now, I'm like, but you know, I didn't, I didn't, because I never thought about it deeply back then.

41:26

I'm like, but the son died on the cross, right? Not the father. Right. Right. So in oneness,

41:32

I mean, where is God the father then right when Christ dies, that's the question is he, he could, he can't be around his mode or his exactly.

41:40

That's the question. They have no answer to. Huh? There's no answer to it. Yeah. You know, I, you know, it's been so long since I've had to defend it.

41:48

There's different ways of obfuscating, you know, and like, you know, getting around the argument and not really addressing it.

41:56

Yeah. Every systematic theology does have some, you know, there's all kinds of dancing that they do around it without actually having to address it.

42:03

But that is a big issue because, and this is why I think the real problem is, is, is we're talking about the father and the son.

42:12

Yeah. Right. Galatians, I believe it says that all family hood derives its name from our father in heaven.

42:19

Yeah. Right. Better understood. All fathers derive their name from our father in heaven.

42:25

Yeah. Right. Right. Right. And so with, with attacking the fatherhood of God, you lose all kinds of foundation foundational truth.

42:41

Yeah, absolutely. That are necessary for even biblical masculinity, for even, you know, even being a father.

42:47

And it's, and it's so weird because so many of these different, you know, cults, you know, and heresies and stuff, you know, will hold so tight in name to conservatism and biblical manhood and all blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

43:03

But really it's all lip service. It's all lip service. Yeah, because they've actually, what's the word, emasculated.

43:10

Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. They've essentially emasculated God. Yeah. You know, and they'll try to hold that a little bit by saying, well, you know,

43:17

Jesus, you know, you know, he's, you know, still, you know, masculine or whatever. And it's like, but the whole relationship between the father and the son, like that's, there's so much beauty in the secret that we don't know.

43:29

Right. We don't understand that we can't comprehend. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Here in our, in our finitude, you know?

43:36

Yeah. And, and it's like, you know, what does it mean to be a father?

43:41

What does it mean to be a good son? What am I calling myself to my brothers, to my children, to what am

43:49

I calling them to? If I don't have a father who's eternally relational with the son, you know,

43:56

God, God is all of a sudden needing, needing to learn these things from his creation.

44:02

Right. Yeah. If, if, if his fatherhood can just be lost arbitrarily at a particular point in time, then that means it's, it's not infinite.

44:16

Right. Or sovereign. They're sovereign. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I'm, I'm convinced that even fatherhood here for us as, as, you know, as humans is a common grace to help us rightly understand who

44:30

God is as a heavenly father. Yeah. And anyone who has kids probably understands that.

44:36

Yeah. I mean, that's, that's essential to the gospel too. I can't remember where it is in scripture right now. I think it might be in Daniel where he talks about in those days that he'll turn the hearts of the father to their children.

44:46

Yeah. Yeah. I might be wrong about where it is, but nevertheless, it's in, it's scripture, it's in the

44:52

Bible. Believe me. So, so give me the, so, so what's going on then? So you're at a, what was it? New Chapel or something? Life Chapel.

44:58

So you're at Life Chapel. You come up to the Toledo area. What gets you from that sister church to then what the heck, what is this reform thing that's going on?

45:09

Give us that story. So, so he asked me that question about, or he makes that very clear statement like either you believe this or, you know, there's something wrong with what you're thinking basically.

45:21

The guy you're working with who's a reform Baptist. And I just start praying and asking God, if there is something to this relationship between the father and the son, please show me, lo and behold,

45:32

I don't remember if he told me to go there or I, I don't remember having a reason to go there, but I remember maybe he did, but I remember going to John 17 and reading that scripture again.

45:44

This scripture was in my mind and I had been thinking about it for so long where he said, father, glorify me with the, with the glory that I had with you.

45:53

And I'm just like, you know, before this time, I'm like, man, it doesn't make any sense.

45:59

Right. And now when he asked, you're like, there's some past tense stuff going on. There's grammar with you.

46:04

There's grammar. It's like, I might have grew, I might've went to weight, but weight high school, but I know what head means.

46:13

I know exactly, you know, and, and, and I just, after he asked me that question,

46:19

I go back and I read that and I'm just like, man, I start beating myself in the head. You idiot.

46:25

Yeah. There is a God in heaven who knows his son eternally.

46:34

Yeah. And his son willfully laid his life down for you. And there is something mysterious there that you can't understand fully.

46:45

Yep. You can't understand fully. You can comprehend it, but maybe not apprehend it.

46:53

Right. You know, and then that's when I was, that's when I just started to be convicted. And then literally

46:58

I just started seeing it popping up everywhere. All the salutations, you know, all the openings, all the, you know,

47:06

I just started seeing it everywhere. Isn't that crazy when the Lord just opened your eyes. That's how it was for me with even, like I said, reformed, like even the stuff

47:14

I was talking about when I was like 13 to my youth pastor. And he was like, I'd ask him a question.

47:20

He'd be like, oh, good one. You know, it was because he didn't have an answer. Right. Like I tell this on the podcast all the time, but I literally said, why do people go to hell?

47:27

He says, for unbelief. I go, well, is unbelief a sin? Yes. He said, didn't Jesus die for all sins?

47:33

And he goes, yes. And I go, then why is everyone, why isn't, why is anyone in hell? Right. And he goes, oh, good one.

47:40

And just walks away. And I'm 13. I'm asking the question. I didn't know I was wrestling with atonement theology.

47:46

Right. I didn't like I didn't know I was, you know, I'm trying to make sense of this. And, you know, when the

47:54

Lord opened up my eyes to actual scripture, then it does. It starts popping up everywhere. And you're like, oh, my gosh, it makes sense.

48:01

So at that moment, you have that John 17 moment. Are you still you still, hey, we're going to attend this church and ride it out.

48:08

So are we looking for a new church? Like what's going on? So we were pretty committed to that church. Right. We were involved in the youth group there, too.

48:16

My wife was doing a lot of the sound work stuff there. And so we had a lot of commitments.

48:23

And I have this fresh, you know, conviction of what I believe is true. And I just immediately start going to the word of God.

48:30

Yeah. Start reading and reading and reading. I'm listening to debates. I'm listening to, you know, systematic theology by Wayne Grudem.

48:39

You know, I'm listening to all like I really want to know both sides at this point in time.

48:45

Yeah. I really want to know both sides. Am I right about this or am I crazy? Right. Right. And so that was probably about four months of working through that while I was still, you know, helping out at church and stuff like church.

49:00

Still attending a youth group in Atlanta. Yeah. And I would ask questions and stuff. And I would try to bring stuff up. And a lot of it would just be like, you know, we can't explain everything, you know.

49:12

I was like, no, this is kind of important. We're talking about who the God is. Right. They were worshiping, you know.

49:18

And so there's just a lot of. You're killing me. Exactly. Quit asking questions.

49:24

Quit asking questions. And so I remember,

49:30

I don't know if it was like a lesson or something like that. I was listening to talking about the necessity of preaching the gospel.

49:38

And I'm like, well, you know, at least I go to a church that preaches the gospel. Right. That's what I was thinking. Yeah. Now, mind you, this whole time

49:45

I've been helping out in youth group. It had probably been weeks since I actually sat in a church service because everything is separate.

49:51

Sure. All the kids are separate. Everybody's separate. And I'm like, you know what? I told the youth leader who was the pastor's son at that time,

49:58

I said, you know what, I need to I need to take a break for a minute and I need to actually go sit in the services.

50:05

Yeah. You know, it's been a while. And, you know, they didn't think much about it because the way they saw it, like you're you're doing, you know, a lot of help and stuff like that.

50:13

You sure you're putting in the work and you're a member and yeah, whatever. Yeah. You need time. You need time to be minister too.

50:19

Right. You need time to have the word preached to you. Oh, 100 percent. You know. And so I'm they're teaching out of Ephesians and and I'm reading this stuff.

50:32

I'm reading all through Ephesians and everything. I'm like, there's so much gospel here. There's no way they're going to screw this up.

50:37

Right. They did. Really bad.

50:43

It was terrible. Yeah. I was just like, like we're sitting here.

50:50

And so I'm a pretty animated person. I try not to be. But they're sitting there and, you know, this whole like four month period,

50:58

I'm having these conversations with my wife and, you know, she's she's like, you're tripping, basically, you know, because for her, it was a lot of emotional ties, stuff like that.

51:07

Sure. You know, and so this was hard for her. Yeah, it's family, you know, the people that serve there. Exactly.

51:12

Yeah. And so she's like, well, look, let's just go sit in the sermon.

51:20

We'll listen to the sermons. And then let me let me see, because I'm like, Marlisa, I don't think they're actually preaching the gospel, because that's what it was as I'm hearing this lesson about, you know, gospel preaching and stuff like that.

51:30

And I go back and I'm reading some of my old notes and stuff. And I'm like, it's like a lot of prosperity gospel, actually.

51:36

Right. OK. Is that what it was? Oh, big time. OK. Never noticed it before. Never noticed it before.

51:42

I don't know how. Right. You know, I would look at guys like Benny Hinn and, you know, you name them.

51:49

And I'd be like, oh, those prosperity preachers. Our teacher wasn't no different. Right. And I was just completely oblivious to it.

51:55

Right. And so, you know, I'm showing like the notes and I'm like, look how they're messing up the text here,

52:01

Marlisa. And and she's like, oh, no, you know, like she's being charitable. Right. You know. And and so, you know, she's she agrees.

52:10

We go, we listen. And and like before, like we're reading, you know, Ephesians together and stuff.

52:16

And I'm like, look, I'm not saying it's got to be exactly like this, but look at these different points here, you know, in scripture where he talks about the gospel and Jesus and all this stuff.

52:25

And I'm like, if he's preaching to this text faithfully, this stuff needs to at least be mentioned. Right. You know, at least like talked about.

52:32

Right. And here's the thing. In some very shallow sense, it was.

52:39

Very shallow, very shallow or don't spend a whole lot of time on it. Not at all. It was kind of like our minions when they get the

52:44

Romans nine or six or. Yeah, exactly. And so visions to by this time,

52:49

I kind of have a decent understanding of what Arminianism is and the sovereignty of God. I'm not expecting to be hard on that because it's obvious I'm in an

52:56

Arminian church. Right. You know what I'm saying? And so. But at that time, are you thinking like, I think

53:01

I'm not lining up with this 100 percent? Right. Exactly. You're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, who on that side of the fence are you listening to?

53:08

Are you like the James White and the R .C. Sprouls and stuff still? Yes, exactly. Yeah, because I'm and here's the thing is, like, there was so much stuff that I was listening to that was talking about prosperity, that was talking about, you know, you know, poverty and, you know,

53:21

God's goodness in these things and stuff. And, you know, me and my wife, like, you know, we already had four kids at the time and I wasn't making much money and stuff.

53:30

And we're still trying to name it and claim it. Sure. Yeah. You know this. I'm naming and claiming all day and I'm changing, you know, but and so that's you know, that's somewhat of a tangent.

53:41

But it's just all these different areas that I've seen in my life that I was like, I don't feel like this is what scripture is actually saying.

53:48

Yeah. So they're teaching through Ephesians. They're not really lining up with scripture. He uses Ephesians to sit there and use that as because God is sovereign.

53:59

Therefore, you can go to him and claim your promise. Yeah, it doesn't even make sense. No, no, it doesn't.

54:06

So so is that the final straw? Or like I'm trying to get to where's the jump at? Exactly. All right. And so from there,

54:12

I'm like, OK, I need to talk to the pastor. Yeah. And so mind you, this is like four months in when

54:18

I start to, you know, get the revelation and start to see things for what they are in scripture. And then

54:24

I start having these different I had like three conversations with the pastor's son and like two conversations with the pastor, something like that.

54:31

And on the last conversation that I had with the pastor, because my wife was feeling the way she was feeling, she wanted to sit on the conversation, too.

54:38

OK, so I had her come in and sit on the conversation. And there was other stuff that transpired that I'm not going to really go on a tangent on because I don't want to.

54:45

Sure. You know, there's just certain things. It's like, yeah, I'm not. I don't want to sit there and just beat people up.

54:50

Sure. You know, they're not here to defend themselves, you know? Yeah. But at the end of the day, when it came, we'll look it up and we'll do it for you.

54:55

Yeah, exactly. I'm just kidding. Yeah. And so when we get when when it came time to actually bring the

55:02

Bible out, like he put his hand on the Bible and was like, look, at the end of the day, we don't interpret the Bible the same. So there's no use of even trying to bring it out.

55:09

I remember his son. Even his son kind of looked like it was taken back, right? Because his son was like, well, no, let's let's go to the Bible, you know?

55:15

Wow. He was like, no. Right. And I'm just like, well, there's a very authoritarian. Yes. Kind of thing that runs through fundamentalist

55:23

Baptist oneness, Pentecostalism, legalistic churches like, hey, it's King James only.

55:30

Right. A lot of it. I don't know if you're familiar with that, but a lot of the King James, like my way, the highway, like I'm the man is the authority.

55:36

Right. Of what I'm saying. Right. Of what I'm saying. The Bible says instead of, well, let's be like the

55:42

Bereans and search the scriptures and reason among each. Yeah. And there'll be some lip service to that. But ultimately, if it doesn't agree with what he preached, right.

55:49

They'll say it. You're not being an action. You're not really a Beret. You're not really. Yeah, exactly. And so from there,

55:55

I'm like, hey, that's cold. So you're like, what? Yeah. Yeah. And like I said, there was other things that happened, too, that I was just like, all right,

56:02

I'm done. Right. I'm done. My wife had like a couple more gigs, so to speak, to help out with the sound and stuff.

56:09

And I was like, we're out, you know. And I didn't know we were going to go right there in that moment. So you didn't have a place to land.

56:15

Not at that moment in time. But again, in God's sovereignty. Two years before that, the pastors.

56:23

No, a year before that, the pastor's son of where we go now. Yeah, I was having a conversation with him at the patio in the patio at Chick -fil -A.

56:33

OK, when I was working there right before, literally right before I started working at at MOBIS.

56:39

OK, this is like a month before I started working at MOBIS. He's randomly meet him and we're talking and he invites me to church.

56:44

I'm like, I know I got a lot going on in my church. You know, if some time ever frees up, I'll come check it out. You know.

56:50

Sure. And he tells me, oh, Christ, the word. And I'm like, oh, OK. Yeah. And I almost a year later that all this happens.

56:57

And I'm like praying. And I'm like asking God, where am I going to take my family? Because my wife's like, where are we going to go then?

57:02

I'm like, I don't know. Right. And Christ, the word comes up. Yeah. Well, let me check it out.

57:08

Look it up online. I look at some of the sermons I listen to the a couple of the sermons. And I'm like,

57:13

OK, this sounds pretty good. This sounds I saw that they were confessional. You know, I saw I saw that they were that I saw that their ministries that they had really focused on the growth of their members.

57:26

So real quick at this point, though, are you still in the mindset of oneness or like searching or like now

57:32

I'm reformed or like where are you at? I didn't know when you formed. OK, you didn't know. I didn't know I was reformed.

57:38

No, I had this. I just knew that I believed in the sovereignty of God. I realized that love it.

57:44

There's no way that I could save myself. Love it. And I realized that that God is three persons, one being.

57:52

Yeah. OK. Jesus died on the cross for my sins. And to think anything else was a fool.

57:59

And it's potentially dangerous for my soul and for the soul of my children. Yeah. And so for that, that's when I really began.

58:04

Praise God for revealing the truth to exactly. And so you look up some sermons and then what you say,

58:10

OK, this looks decent. Right. I think so. But we have this ugly fallout with the leadership.

58:16

Yeah, it's too bad. Yeah. I go visit a couple, you know, sermons in the evening.

58:21

And it was like the summertime. So they had some evening. And what year is this? This is. Oh, gosh.

58:29

Two thousand fifteen. OK, something like that. Yeah, because we've been going for almost seven years.

58:35

OK, something like that. And I go check it out. I'm like, look, this is where we're going to go.

58:42

This is what we're going to do. She's like, what about these other commitments? I'm like, look, you're going to finish your commitments. That's fine.

58:48

But this is what this is what we got to do. Right. And it was many arguments.

58:54

It was many. You when you married me, you said you was going to go where I go.

59:00

Right. And so that was really putting me in a place where I had to stand for the truth firmly in my home.

59:08

Not that my not that my wife wanted to rebel against me.

59:14

Right. But that she was fearful. Sure. She rightly so. Exactly. Change. Right.

59:19

Exactly. You know, I didn't I mean, I was just zealous at that time. So there was a lot of things

59:25

I could have did differently. But nevertheless, God was good through all of it. Yeah. And and so we the one the one

59:33

Sunday she's like, well, I'm going to my church. And I said, oh, are you? And so so we get into the car and the van and we get ready to drive.

59:42

And you have to go over the interstate to get onto the road to get to the other church.

59:49

And instead of going to interstate, I jump on the interstate. It's like, where are we going? You said you was going to take it to my church.

59:55

And I said, woman, wherever my church is, that's your church, too. Because you got to understand, too, is like my wife's looking at me, my like I'm crazy.

01:00:05

All my church families looking at my like I'm crazy. Yeah. Like I literally feel like I'm going insane.

01:00:12

There's there's a little bit of uncertainty. There's a bit of insecurity. That is just like, what if I am wrong?

01:00:19

Yeah. That and during that time, I'm listening to a lesson on Martin Luther.

01:00:24

And it tells the story of Martin Luther being in the jail cell and being terrified and having to stand before the pope and make his case and how he had to trust

01:00:33

God. And I just remember being so comforted. Yeah. Being so comforted that night.

01:00:39

I'm literally before I fell asleep. I'm thinking about that. And me and my wife are talking. She's like, what if you're wrong? And I said,

01:00:44

I don't know. And I just started crying. Yeah. Not serious stuff, too, especially when you're trying to be the leader with your family as well.

01:00:50

Exactly. Yeah. And so then I go from. So did you guys go to Christ's Word that Sunday when you said we did?

01:00:56

We went to church. Our church is your church. Exactly. But here's the beauty in that. So I'm being, you know, bullheaded, not gentle.

01:01:03

You know, we go. We end up going to a small group at a friend's house that that evening.

01:01:09

We just got invited to go. OK. And we end up breaking up into groups.

01:01:15

The men go into one room and the women go another. I'm like, what the heck is going on here? And I said

01:01:20

I'm sitting down because I've never been in a situation like this. And mind you, me and my wife, we were always the ones that like my wife would end up elbowing me.

01:01:28

Like, why would you confess that to people? Right. You know? Yeah. So I really feel like in that situation, we were the dirty people because everyone else was always confessing like I should.

01:01:38

I need to read my Bible more. Oh, yeah. The popular, you know, the confess, but not confess.

01:01:44

Yes. Yeah. Cleaner sins. You know, it's the equivalent to when you go to a job interview and they say, what's your weaknesses?

01:01:50

Yeah, I just work too hard. Yeah, exactly. That's what that confession is. Exactly. Exactly. It's a subtle boast.

01:01:57

Humble brag. Humble brag. Yeah. And and so I'm sitting here and one of the guys in there is like I was really struggling with lust this week.

01:02:07

And I was like, whoa. You're like, what? Don't you mean you didn't read your Bible enough?

01:02:13

Right. And I just remember being like, OK, let's talk about this. This dude being real. I know

01:02:18

I was. I was tripping. Refreshing. It was. It was refreshing. You obey, confess your sins to one another. He is

01:02:23

Justin, right? You know, to forgive us our sins. Absolutely. And so I remember walking out like feeling amped, feeling good.

01:02:32

We talked about sin for the first time in my life. I really felt like I was filled with the power of God. All the speaking in tongues, all the chasing the miracles, all the nonsense didn't compare to that moment when

01:02:44

I actually sat down. And it reminded me of that day, the first time I heard the gospel. Wow, that's powerful.

01:02:51

I'm getting chills when you said that. And I'm just like, God, please forgive me and take me. Yeah. You know, and I'm like, this is it because it's the truth.

01:03:00

Exactly. That actually sets us free. Exactly. Yeah. One more step. So I'm kind of nervous. We're getting in the van.

01:03:06

I'm like, so, you know, how did, you know, prayer time go? Because I don't know what to say. I mean, I'm like, did you confess it?

01:03:11

Like, I don't know what to say. Oh, yeah. You're right. Yeah. And she's like, she's like, you know what?

01:03:17

I really feel like this is where God wants us. Oh, worked on everyone's heart that night because it got good, bro.

01:03:24

I was like, man, I was like, man,

01:03:30

I couldn't believe it because I literally I was. Wait, was that was that? Was that the word?

01:03:36

My church is your church that same night, that day, that day. So it was the same. It was the same day. 24 hour period.

01:03:42

You guys both have like a. Yes. Like a change of heart. Yes. Change of spirit. Yeah. Yes. God is good.

01:03:48

And I was just like because I was literally to the point I'm praying, God, don't let me lose my family.

01:03:54

But if I do help me to keep serving you. Wow. That's what I have been praying because that's crazy.

01:04:00

That's how like upside down things were in my home. Right. You know, because while this is going on like a dummy,

01:04:05

I keep bringing up the sovereignty of God being elected and stuff like that when it's not time for that. You and you, you're in straight up cage state.

01:04:13

You know, she's like, yeah. And she's like, well, what about my kids? What if they go to hell? And I'm like, I don't know. Right. I'm like, you know, and so I'm just I'm stressing out my wife on all these different angles, you know?

01:04:24

Yeah. And and and here's the thing is like, I know now that 99 % of the time when my wife is asking questions, she really does want to know.

01:04:34

Right. And she's just really curious, concerned, fearful. There's all kinds of things running through her mind. At the time, you know,

01:04:41

I was so blinded by some but by so much of the other bull crap, I couldn't even discern when my wife had a genuine question.

01:04:49

And so everything was like, you're fighting me. You're fighting me. You're fighting. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I was legitimately in the midst of a lot of combat, you know, spiritually, physically, you know, all kinds of stuff that it was like it was it was really taking a toll on me.

01:05:04

And to hear that come out my wife's mouth. Yeah. When earlier in the morning, she's like, you said you was taking me to my church.

01:05:12

Right. I was just like, oh. But isn't that just like God, how he softens hearts?

01:05:18

Like we kick against the pricks and we try to do everything ourselves and we try within our own power and armies and this and that and figure out ways and money and buy it.

01:05:28

And the Lord actually changes the heart of a person. Right. To where then, you know what

01:05:34

I mean? Like if you had to try it in your own will, you probably could have been oh, you're going to with her for the next five years.

01:05:40

Oh, yeah. And you're both like this. Right. And the Lord goes in his graciousness. So I'm a change both your hearts.

01:05:46

Exactly. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Beautiful. Yep. And and and so from there.

01:05:53

It was just it was just a matter of, all right, let's let's dive in. Let's jump in. Let's see where we're at.

01:05:58

Let's see where we're at. Let's you know, let's let's keep it moving and stuff. And it it became a lot easier for her.

01:06:06

You know, once once. Oh, yeah. Here's the thing, too, is that she had told me that, you know, when she went to go sat down, she didn't want to talk to anybody or anything like that.

01:06:14

And that one when it came time, her turn to talk. She was just like, I just want you to know

01:06:20

I don't want to be here. I don't want to be here. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So the other women, she just told him that.

01:06:25

And then like like three of the other women were like, we know exactly how you feel.

01:06:30

That's how we were when we first came. The guy got a hold of us, right? And it was just and she was like, oh, really?

01:06:37

You know, and so for, you know, for the first time and it's so funny because a few times

01:06:43

I've met your wife just to interject. She seems like the sweetest, most gentle lady.

01:06:51

I'm sure like, you know, as husbands, we all know the full dimensions of our wives, right? Right.

01:06:56

But I'm just like her being like that. I'm like, oh, my gosh, she's such a sweet, gentle person, you know?

01:07:02

That's a real testimony to the way God has used the church to sanctify us. Yeah, because before that,

01:07:09

I honestly think that while my wife had, you know, friends in the other church,

01:07:14

I honestly I interpret that. That's the first time she actually didn't feel alone.

01:07:21

Because, you know, my wife, she had friends and stuff like that. You know, that she would hang out with once in a while. But the way that whole system is set up, they're very open about it.

01:07:31

There's an inner inner circle. Yeah. And then there's your outside rings. Yeah. And it's like high school all over again.

01:07:37

And it's up to you. Literally, he sat there one time and had this whole chart with circles within circles within circles.

01:07:43

And here's your core. Right. Here's your outer. Exactly. And he had a name for all of them and all this stuff.

01:07:49

And he said, it's up to you to work your way into the middle. No. Wow. That's too bad, man.

01:07:54

Yeah. When in fact, you know, it's like I don't go to church for friends. I want brothers and sisters in the

01:07:59

Lord, man. Amen. Well, we're bonded by the blood of Christ and the imputed righteousness of Christ. Absolutely.

01:08:04

That's that's thicker than anything political or family or. You know what I mean?

01:08:10

It's like that's what that's the church. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And so my wife, you know, you know, it it it took her time, obviously.

01:08:21

You know, it takes all of us time to really start to, you know, branch out of her comfort zone and stuff like that.

01:08:27

You know what I mean? But seeing my wife now like that's not how she was.

01:08:33

I always saw that side of her. Yeah. I always saw the sweet side of Marlisa, the caring side, you know, the one that loves too hard.

01:08:42

You know what I'm saying? Right. And and it was frustrating when we were going to the church to, you know, hear because people say things and I can't remember anything specific, but there would be things said about my wife to my wife in jest.

01:09:00

And I'm like, that's not my wife. Right. That's not who my wife is. Right. You know, you know, things like, you know,

01:09:07

I don't know, but, you know, similes to, you know, bullheaded and stuff like that.

01:09:12

Sure. You know, you know, probably not those words exactly, but just things like that. And it's like, man, so many people just don't realize what they sound like when they.

01:09:21

Right. You know what I mean? It's like the world. Exactly. Not the church. Exactly. And so here's my wife, who's really who comes from a rough background, mind you.

01:09:29

Yeah. Who's struggling to love people in a state that she was not born in.

01:09:34

Sure. And she's from down there, too. Exactly. She's from down south. That's where I met her.

01:09:40

That's where she was her whole life. Never in her life. Toledo is the biggest city she ever been to. Made her a

01:09:45

Yankee. Exactly. Look at you, dude. What are you doing? I know. Right. Take her from gumbo to Subway.

01:09:54

Yeah. What the heck, man? We got nothing good in the Midwest. She does like Subway, though. She makes good gumbo, though.

01:10:01

Right. She makes really good gumbo. That's cool. So. So now. Yeah. So.

01:10:07

So then you're at Christ the Word. And then kind of the roundness out and kind of put bookends on this. You're going, yeah, this is what the

01:10:14

Bible says. This is I'm I've left that doctrine behind. So what would you tell someone if they're if they're listening right now and they're and they're deep into not necessarily even specifically oneness, but even

01:10:28

Pentecostalism and very tongues based and works based in gift based. And you need to achieve this.

01:10:35

And why aren't you healing and why aren't you prophesying? And I mean, there's a lot of that going on right now. I mean, that's that's like the majority of evangelical churches right now.

01:10:44

Yeah. What would you tell them from someone who's crossed that chasm of like being in that and then going and understanding the beauty of who

01:10:55

God is and his graciousness towards you and his sovereignty and and the process of him choosing you for no other reason.

01:11:03

Nothing good in you. Right. Right. And he going, oh, I can leave that behind. I go wake up every day and be grateful.

01:11:09

Right. Because of the beautiful thing that he did. Like, what's your advice to someone listening right now that might be struggling with that?

01:11:17

So all all heresy to the side. All right. So I don't care if it's oneness,

01:11:22

Pentecostalism, not Pentecostalism, but oneness, Pentecostalism specifically. I don't care if it's that Jehovah's Witness, Mormonism, Islam.

01:11:33

Sure. Whatever it is, because they all got something to say about Jesus. Right. They're all heresies of the

01:11:40

Christian church. Lesbiterian. Lesbiterian. Yeah. Lesbiterian. Liberal Presbyterianism. Okay.

01:11:46

Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. Doug's funny, man. But it so.

01:11:53

Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. No, that's fine. Stick all that into a bucket and say automatically. No, no, no, no, no, no, no touchy.

01:12:01

All right. No touchy ever. Okay. If you're going to a church that's like that.

01:12:07

Right. Or if you're going to any other false religion. Yeah. You know, Buddhism, Hinduism. I'll put I put oneness,

01:12:12

Pentecostalism in the same bucket as all. Right. Okay. All right. Yeah. Leave that crud alone.

01:12:18

Okay. That you're not going to find God there. Right. Yeah. Now, as it relates to just say, you know, you know, mainstream

01:12:27

Pentecostalism. Right. So then, in other words, they believe in the Trinity. You know, they might have a bit of an

01:12:32

Armenian streak. You know, but they don't deny the essentials of the faith.

01:12:39

In other words, you know, the orthodoxy. Yes. You know, you know. Deity of Christ. Exactly. Yeah. Right. If you're if you're going to a church like that and you're beginning to feel strongly convicted about the sovereignty of God and stuff like that.

01:12:53

What I would what I would tell you is what I would ask you is, are you being fed? Are you challenged to to be a man of God that leads us home?

01:13:02

Right. I would never pull somebody out of a church where they are preaching the gospel faithfully and they are holding to true biblical sound doctrine asterisks on the

01:13:13

Armenian stuff. Obviously, you know, there's asterisks there, you know, and and so if you're there and they're, you know, holding tight to, you know, biblical manhood, biblical womanhood, calling children to love and honor, love, honor and obey their parents and follow the

01:13:31

Lord. You know, stay put. Don't. Right. And you know, don't. There's no need to bounce from that, you know.

01:13:38

OK, so you disagree with the Armenian stuff. You know what I mean? I understand why people would be uneasy.

01:13:46

Sure. About that. Right. The question is, are they are they silencing you?

01:13:51

Are they being combative towards you? Are they charging against you? Or are they just kind of like, look, we love you, brother.

01:13:57

You can be here. We don't. You know, we can talk about those things and stuff. I've been in those situations before in church.

01:14:02

Yeah, that's that's a whole nother thing. We didn't feel like we needed to bounce right then. Exactly. You know what

01:14:07

I mean? Right. Church hop or whatever. We were there probably there too long because of our loyalties of serving in the church. Right.

01:14:12

On the worship team and in children's church. But yeah, yeah. And the reason why the reason why, you know,

01:14:18

I. Because you're not trying to sow discord here either. That's what's crazy. It's like a lot of people think like reformed folk are just like, oh, you know what

01:14:25

I mean? We're a thump you in the Bible. I'll tell you what theology is. And we're all head and we're no hard and you better get.

01:14:32

And it's like, I've had multiple time. Ask a lot. Right. A few months or last year now.

01:14:37

And he said the same thing. Like, if you're in a Bible, believing orthodox, you know, orthodox Trinity and deity of Christ and death and resurrection and their secondary issues and you're being fed.

01:14:47

Secondary. That's the stay there. Right. Stay there. Exactly. But when, you know, my own personal and like he said, too, like when those secondary issues start to flood into that core set of doctrinal beliefs, well, then, you know, maybe it's time to reassess.

01:15:03

Right. But it sounds like you're saying the same thing. No, no, absolutely. Yeah, exactly. Because, you know, here's the thing is that I think that in our zealousness, we can treat every situation like we're in a heretical situation.

01:15:15

Sure. You know, denying the Trinity is detrimental. Sure. To your soul.

01:15:22

Well, that's I think there's a few things that are heretical. That is one of them, actually, according to Orthodox Christianity.

01:15:29

Here's the thing, though, is I think that it's possible. It is possible that there are people who just don't know.

01:15:38

Right. And the Lord is still working on them. Sure. And we need to be gentle. Absolutely.

01:15:43

You know, we need to be gentle in the way we, you know, the same way Adam was with me, you know, not don't be afraid to go to take the test.

01:15:52

Don't be afraid to, you know, get a little fiery if you have to. But, you know, that that should be a tool in your tool bag, you know, not coming out swinging like, you know, everything is a home run, you know.

01:16:04

You know, that's not a good way to take it, you know. And so I would say, yes, you have your straight heresy, you know, within that bucket.

01:16:15

If you are thinking about going to a church like that, stay away from it. Right. Stay away from it. You know,

01:16:20

I'm sorry. All the community that can be there feels good in the moment. You know, they're really good at making you feel like you're needed and stuff, you know.

01:16:29

But at the end of the day, I'm sorry, the vast majority of the time I have yet.

01:16:36

I want to be careful how I say this. I have yet to see a situation where someone puts the welfare of the sheep over everything.

01:16:49

Yeah. You know, I look at the men that I'm surrounded by, that I'm surrounded by now, and their primary goal is to seek the welfare, the holiness and the sanctification of the sheep.

01:17:05

Of the sheep. Yeah. To protect the sheep. Exactly what a shepherd should be. Even from themselves. Yeah. You know, a quick story real quick.

01:17:12

I remember when I went to the pastor and I was like, look, I'm struggling with pornography. And he's like, well, it sounds like you need somebody you need to talk to.

01:17:19

You're like, I came to you. Right. Yeah, you're the guy. Exactly. You know, but that was just the attitude is, because here's the thing, even in our church, there's sin.

01:17:29

Yeah. There's probably ugly sin. Yeah. There's probably all kinds of sin that, you know, the pastor just isn't talking about behind the pulpit because it's super, super sensitive or it's being addressed, but it's not specific.

01:17:41

These are the people that are doing this kind of stuff. Sure. But you can trust and know that the elders of the church are addressing sin and they're faithfully fighting for the sanctification of the church.

01:17:50

Yeah, that's good. You know what I'm saying? And that's the kind of church you want to be in. Exactly. A biblical church. Exactly. And that and that's what and that's yeah, that's one thing that that I've learned is that there is no such thing as a perfect church, but there is such thing as a biblical church.

01:18:04

Yeah. You know, and if you find a perfect church, don't go because you're going to mess it up. I like it.

01:18:09

Cool, man. And I just want to cap that off by saying, too, as we finish up here, one of the coolest things that you said during this whole thing was when you were talking about Adam, your buddy on the line, and he said, no matter when

01:18:21

I started getting off and all this stuff, he always just kept it to Christ. Right. Always kept it to the gospel and Christ. And that's what we need to do as believers.

01:18:28

If you focus on the truth of the gospel, the truth of who Christ was, we'll always land on solid ground, even if we have some ancillary differences.

01:18:38

So as we head out here, though, I do have a Pentecostal joke for you and I have to share it with you as we close.

01:18:46

Do you know how many oneness Pentecostals it takes to change a light bulb? No. Three.

01:18:53

One to actually change the light bulb and two to cast out the spirit of darkness. All right, guys, do you have any last words before we get out of here?

01:19:01

Thanks again, man, for having me. Dude, Octavio, it was so cool having you here, man. You're a brother in the Lord. I love you. Thanks for coming down and spending some time with us in studio.

01:19:09

Guys, we love getting your constructive criticism, your feedback. Make sure you leave us those five stars on Apple and Spotify and all those places you listen to us.

01:19:18

And check out dmwpodcast .com where you can check out our merch site, support the show. Guys, as always,