April 25, 2018 Show with Dr. Desmond Ford AND Ken Samples on “David Koresh, the Branch Davidians & The Waco, Texas Disaster 25 Years After the Siege”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister

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George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 25th day of April 2018.

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This month marks the 25th anniversary of the end of the siege carried out by American federal and Texas state law enforcement and the

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U .S. military beginning one and a half months earlier in 1993 upon the compound of a cult known as the

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Branch Davidians led by its false messiah David Koresh. This resulted in a horrific fire.

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Only nine survived the April 19th fire, and 76 Branch Davidians perished.

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We're going to be talking about David Koresh, the Branch Davidians, and the Waco, Texas disaster 25 years after the siege today.

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And our guests to do this, first of all, are Dr. Desmond Ford, who is a teacher and minister of the gospel and has been for over 50 years.

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He's the former head of the religion department at Avondale College in Australia for over 16 years, former member of the

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Biblical Research Committee of the Seventh -day Adventist Chief Theological Committee in both

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Australia, both in Australia, and now working independently through a nonprofit ministry for over 20 years in Auburn, California and the

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USA called Good News Unlimited. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

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Desmond Ford. Thank you, Chris. Thank you. And also joining us today, another returning guest who

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I have had the privilege of calling my friend since the 1980s, Ken Samples, former senior research consultant and correspondent editor at the

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Christian Research Institute, also known as CRI, former co -host of the Bible Answer Man radio broadcast, current senior research scholar at Reasons to Believe and leader of Reason to Believe Straight Thinking podcast, host of the

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Reflections blog, speaker at universities and churches worldwide, and author of a number of books, including

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Prophets of the Apocalypse, David Koresh, and Other American Messiahs.

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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back also to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, my old friend, Ken Samples. Hi, Chris.

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It's good to be with you and a great topic. And it's also great to be on with my old friend,

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Des Ford, who is a great preacher of the gospel. Hi, Des. Hi, Ken.

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And Des deserves an extra congratulations because it's about 6 a .m.

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there in Brisbane, Australia. And we appreciate you taking the time to participate in this.

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Well, basically what I want to do is, first of all, let me give our listeners our email address if you have any questions about this cult, the

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Branch Davidians, or its leader, David Koresh. Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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I am truly amazed about how time flies because it seems that this siege, this horrific siege that ended in disaster and death only took place yesterday.

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And I was speaking with one of the sons of the woman who led me to Christ back in the 1980s.

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He's in his late 20s and he had no clue what I was talking about when I was referring to David Koresh and the

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Branch Davidians or the Texas disaster. He had no idea. But what

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I'd like to do is to start off, Ken, with some of the specific details about who

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David Koresh was, who the Branch Davidians were, how they started, and how they came to this point of being under siege by the

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American federal and Texas state law enforcement and the United States military. And then we'll have

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Des Ford join in in the conversation because I know that he has personal connection with people that had personal connection with David Koresh and this cult.

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But if you could start off, Ken, tell us about who David Koresh was and how he eventually started this cult.

05:53

Yeah, thank you very much. Well, the man that would become David Koresh was born

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Vernon Howell. He was born in 1959 in Houston, Texas. His mother was only 14 years old.

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She was a single mother. Vernon Howell never met his father. He said that when he grew up he felt lonely.

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He suffered from dyslexia. He was part of special ed classes, got teased quite a bit, dropped out of high school when he was about 17 years old.

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And he said he had a born -again experience, attended for a short time a Baptist church, and then later a

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Seventh -day Adventist church, where he became very, very interested in all things prophetic, prophecy, end -of -the -world eschatology, the book of Revelation.

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And even though he didn't read and write very well, he was a smart young man and had a good memory, could quote large passages from the

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Old Testament, various prophetic passages. In 1982, he joined a particular group called the

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Branch Davidians, and this was a prophetic group. Lois Roden was considered the prophet, comes from the

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Shepherd's Rod, which is a sect associated with a man named

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Houtep. And there was immediate conflict between Vernon Howell and the

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Roden family. In fact, there was even gunplay between the son of Lois Roden.

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And then finally, Vernon Howell took over the leadership of the Branch Davidians.

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In terms of his own prophetic identity, it grew. Initially, he said that he was a prophet of God.

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Later, he said he was the Lamb of the book of Revelation, then called himself the

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Messiah, and even called himself the Son of God. He asserted that God had told him to build an army of God, so they stockpiled weapons,

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AK -47s, a large number of rounds. He took multiple wives, said that this was justified by his prophetic role, and there are allegations that he had sex with several underage girls in the compound.

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This, of course, leads to February 28, 1993, when the

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BATF, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, raided the compound there at Mount Carmel, just very close to Waco, Texas.

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There was a major gun battle between the BATF and the

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Davidians. Six of the Davidians lost their lives, four of the BATF agents were killed.

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That followed a 51 -day standoff, and of course, Janet Reno, the

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Attorney General, finally made the call to send federal agents in on April 19, and that led to a large fire and a very controversial event, where I think the number is 80

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Davidians died in the fire, including David Koresh. Twenty -two of them were under age 17, so they were children, and there's controversy about who started the fire.

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I think the evidence is that the fire was started by the Davidians at the command of David Koresh.

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There's controversy about how David Koresh, again, formerly

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Vernon Howell, he died of a gunshot wound to the head. There's controversy about whether he inflicted that gunshot himself and thus a suicide, or whether one of his close associates, a man named

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Steve Schneider, killed him and then killed himself. It's hard to believe this was 25 years ago.

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It was all played out on television, and of course, has become quite an event concerning how religious cults can, in fact, become very controversial, how they are spiritually poisonous to people's souls, and potentially lethal to their lives.

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When I was at the Christian Research Institute, of course, I worked with Walter Martin, who was one of the founders of, in those days we called the counter -cult movement.

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We studied various religious groups, and myself and three colleagues wrote a book that was published in 1994, entitled

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Prophets of the Apocalypse, David Koresh and Other American Messiahs.

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Yeah, I remember when that first came out. Yeah, I remember when it first came out, and I was getting you interviews on the

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Andy Anderson Live program on WMCA radio, where I worked. I remember that, yes.

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This is before I had my own program, and I clearly remember. In fact, I still have a copy somewhere, and I hope that somehow our listeners can get a hold of that, because it is available on Amazon still, even though it's out of print, is it not?

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It is available, yes. Well, Dr. Ford, you were, for many years, for most of your life, you were a member of the

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Seventh -day Adventist church, before you had a very public falling out with them, because you rightly, very, very rightly, publicly opposed and denounced the doctrine of the investigative judgment, which basically would lead one, if one were to embrace that teaching, it would lead one to a false gospel, which requires the works of man in order to be made right with God.

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But that is not the topic of our discussion today. I just wanted to have you recollect, as a

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Seventh -day Adventist, what was going through your mind when you initially heard about the

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Branch Davidian cult even forming, and if you could relate to our audience, any kind of connection you had with people who had first -hand experience, in some way, with David Koresh and this cult?

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Chris, Ken has given us an excellent summary of the

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David Koresh life and end. I remember in the 1950s, when

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I was living in eastern Australia and working for the

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Adventist church, there were people in my neighborhood that were followers of Victor Hutef.

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Victor Hutef was a Bulgarian who, about 1929, became converted to Adventism, and soon he claimed that he was a prophet, and he particularly stressed

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Ezekiel chapter 9, where an angel with slaughter weapons cuts down professed people of God who were not genuine, and Hutef said he'd been raised up of God to help reform the

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Seventh -day Adventist church, and that the church would be cut down, as Ezekiel 9 predicted.

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There were people in my neighborhood who were promoting what was known as the Shepherd's Rod, before it became the

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Davidian group, and I found that they were very much proselytizers.

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You know that Vernon Howell himself went to Britain, and he won 20 people, some of them from the

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Adventist college, the New Bowl college, certain of which died in the fire, one of whom escaped, but 20

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Britons were captured, so to speak, ideologically by Vernon Howell, and then he went to Hawaii, to the

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Diamond Head church, and he took 14 people from that church.

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Now it must be stressed that Seventh -day Adventism has always opposed the teachings of Vernon Howell.

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They paid a lot of money to an advertising agency to try and prevent public linking of Howell with them, but it is quite plain that Vernon Howell's interest in prophecy came from his close connection with Seventh -day

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Adventists. His grandmother took him there regularly. He became very interested in Ellen White, whom

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Adventists used as a prophet, and he was misled because the church too often made

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Ellen White like another Bible, and in Vernon was born the ambition that he would follow

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Ellen White, that he would become another messenger of God.

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He was particularly interested, and the people I met in Australia, from Shepherd's Rock, the predecessors, very interested in trying to interpret prophecy.

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Chris, do I have your permission to say a little on the connection between Adventism prophecy and Howell?

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Yeah, sure, go ahead. Well, let me say this. Adventism began because of wrong interpretation of prophecy.

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William Miller, after denying setting a date, ultimately came round to October 22, 1844.

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Now this is in direct contradiction to Acts 1 verse 7, which says it is not for you to know the dates.

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So Adventism grew out of a wrong interpretation of prophecy, and here,

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Chris, is the strange thing. Adventism, for well over 100 years, has nourished and taught the same dates, supposedly prophetic dates, that William Miller taught.

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He believed that 538 began papal supremacy, 1260 years, 1798 ended it.

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There's not a breath of history that supports that. 538 was one of the worst years of the papacy, and it's quite ridiculous to say that papal supremacy began in 538.

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But Adventism adopted this from William Miller, and Vernal Howell caught it.

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Now, we have to remember, the Eastern Orthodox Church, a huge group of many millions, never accepted the papacy.

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So it's just not true that the papacy became supreme in religion 538.

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Now Chris, this is very important. Vernon Howell claimed to have an interpretation of the seven seals.

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He knew what Adventists did with the book of Revelation. Uriah Smith had written thoughts on Daniel and Revelation, and Howell was very influenced by that Adventist influence, despite the fact that in later times,

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Adventism never supported Howell, very much against him. But please note this, every prophetic date that Vernal Howell learned from his

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Adventist associations, 1844, 538 to 1798,

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August 11, 1840, when Josiah Lynch had predicted events happening with the

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Turkish Ottoman power, which never happened, Vernon Howell learned all these dates in his

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Adventist associations, and not one of the dates is correct.

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Not one. I hope some of my Adventist friends, for I am not antagonistic to Adventism, I love them.

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I want to see them repent of their errors, and most of their errors are prophetic errors.

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Not one of their dates is biblically, theologically, or historically correct.

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I would be very happy to debate with anyone the

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General Conference of Seventh -day Adventists selected to debate me on this topic.

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None of the dates in the prophetic teachings of Adventism, which Vernon Howell learned, not one of them can be supported.

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So my main point, Chris, is that Vernon got a wrong slant on prophecy from Seventh -day

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Adventists. When we look at the book of Revelation, it begins with the words, the revelation of Jesus Christ.

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It's about him. He's referred to five times in the first chapter, 137 times in the three chapters that begin the book.

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He's called the Lamb 28 times in this book. He's given 25 titles, some about his deity, some about his humanity, some about his officers.

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And the whole book of Revelation, on which I've written books called Crisis, revolves around the life of Christ, his conflict, his preservation, his triumph.

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The whole book of Revelation is about Jesus. Now Vernon Howell never got that. He was into all sorts of other things.

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He loved the idea of Armageddon, but he didn't realise that Armageddon was a final conflict between the gospel and those who opposed the gospel.

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And so the main point, Chris, I would like to make, there would never have been a

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Vernon Howell, but to the fact that Adventists, in good heart and in charity, loving

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God and man, made some terrible blunders when they followed William Miller's eschatology.

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And every date that's in all the Adventist books is wrong. And I'd be happy to debate anyone selected by the church to debate beyond this topic.

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Well, you have an open door on this program to debate them. If you can arrange that,

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Desmond, I would love to host a debate between you and a leading Seventh -day Adventist scholar or theologian on this program, that'd be great.

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But Ken Samples, you and I, and I know that Desmond believes this as well, in a pillar of the

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Reformation known as Sola Scriptura. Isn't the denial of Sola Scriptura, either formally or unconsciously, the breeding ground for Vernon Howells to come into the world and become

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David Koresh's? Yeah, I think that, you know,

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I think in trying to explain the phenomenon of people like Vernon Howell who become the so -called

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David Koresh, I think you have to look very carefully at his very troubled past.

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I mean, this is a young man who never met his father. His mother was 14.

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He was raised a good bit by his grandparents who gave him an

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Adventist upbringing, and Des is correct. He studied not only

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William Miller, the Baptist leader in the 19th century, but he studied as well

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Ellen G. White, and that prophetic orientation, I think, was deeply imprinted on him.

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Of course, he is a cult leader as well. I mean, he is a person who was involved in violence, physical violence.

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He was involved in sexual abuse of people in the compound, so there's a lot of factors, but certainly when we look at the question of his own prophetic orientation, he was influenced by the idea that there would be prophetic figures, including

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Ellen White, and he later began to see himself, as I mentioned, not just as a prophet, but later as a

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Christ figure. In fact, the name David Koresh is a reference to that kind of divine line, and so, you know, one author in the 1950s who was a

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Christian person, J .K. van Beylen was his name, a

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Dutch Reformed thinker and theologian, he said that the cults are the unpaid bills of the church, and I think that some of the theological problems that we see in various church orientation is then taken and abused by abusive people like Vernon Howell.

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So, you know, teaching people proper doctrine, teaching young people the faith, encouraging people to be discerning and reflective,

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I mean, Scripture is replete with warnings about false gospels, false gods, false

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Christs. You know, doctrine is very important that Christians know what they believe, why they believe it, and that there are people out there who engage in false teaching, and cults really trap people.

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They trap them in terms of their potential eternal destiny, but we also see,

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I mean, think of the 22 young people that were, that died in that fire, again, likely started by David Koresh, and so it really is important that people know their

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Bible, that they know historic Christian doctrine, and that we teach people to be discerning and reflective when it comes to false doctrine.

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I'm going to read a question from a listener in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, and I'll have both of you respond to it when we return from our first commercial break.

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The question from Gordy in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, the potential for more cults like the

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Branch Davidians would certainly seem to be a testimony against, quote, quote, home churches, which tend to have little, if any, accountability.

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What are your thoughts? I have my own thoughts about that, but I'll chime in when we return from the break as well, and I think we have to be careful not to broad brush all

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Christians who worship in someone's home, because that's actually the way the New Testament saints began their worship back in the apostolic era.

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It was mainly in people's homes where they were worshiping, so we have to be careful not to broad brush there, but we'll have you two respond when we come back from the break.

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I want to remind our guest all the way there in Australia, Dr. Ford, during the break, we can hear you unless you mute your microphone or unless you don't speak, so please either try to mute your microphone or remain silent during the station breaks, because everyone will hear what you're saying during the breaks.

27:24

And our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com

27:32

if you would like to join the others who are already waiting to have their questions asked and answered by our guests

27:38

Ken Samples and Des Ford. Don't go away, we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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And we have back on the program to discuss David Koresh, the

31:37

Branch Davidians and the Waco, Texas disaster 25 years after the siege, our guest

31:42

Dr. Desmond Ford who is a teacher and minister of the gospel for over 50 years, former head of the religion department at Avondale College in Australia for over 16 years, former member of the

31:54

Biblical Research Committee of the Seventh -day Adventist Chief Theological Committee in both

32:00

Australia, now working independently through a non -profit ministry for over 20 years in Auburn California and the

32:08

USA called Good News Unlimited and we also have Ken Samples, former senior research consultant and correspondent editor for the

32:18

Christian Research Institute known as CRI, former co -host of the Bible Answer Man radio broadcast, current senior research scholar at Reasons to Believe, leader of Reasons to Believe's Straight Thinking podcast and host of the

32:33

Reflections blog and author of a number of books including Prophets of the Apocalypse, David Koresh and Other American Messiahs.

32:40

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

32:47

And before I go to that question from our listener Gordy in Mechanicsburg, did you two, meaning

32:53

Dr. Ford and Brother Samples, did you two meet each other through the friendship of Walter Martin?

33:02

Yes. Yes, we did. It was a joy to meet Ken. I remember the first time

33:19

I heard Dr. Ford speak, he filled in for Walter Martin at Walter Martin's Bible class that he taught many years in Southern California.

33:29

And I heard Dr. Ford preach on justification by faith, and Chris, I thought, wow, this must be the way

33:35

Martin Luther sounded. Des was a great preacher, very bold.

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I went up and shook his hand, got to know him, and then through my relationship with Walter Martin, I got to develop a close friendship with Desmond Ford.

33:52

And I've learned a lot from him. I admire his courage and his great clarity on the doctrine of justification by faith.

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Yes, by faith alone. And Dr. Ford, I know that you are a humble enough man for me to ask this question without you being offended, but may

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I ask how old you are? Certainly. I'm in my 90th year.

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That is, I'm 89, heading for 90. Praise God. You are someone for all of us to admire that we could be this bold and vibrant in proclaiming

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Christ and him crucified and him as our only hope for salvation after all those decades.

34:39

Amen. Well, let me go back to our listener Gordy's question that I read to you both before we had the station break.

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Gordy says, the potential for more cults like the Branch Davidians would certainly seem to be a testimony against home churches, which tend to have little, if any, accountability.

34:59

What are your thoughts? I think that the last part of his sentence is really the important part, having no or little accountability, because I'm sure that there are gatherings that are churches which have been established in people's homes and continue to gather in people's homes that do have accountability with other congregations.

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I mean, I happen to be a Reformed Baptist, and we believe in the autonomy of the local church.

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We don't believe in a denominational hierarchy, but at the same time, we have fellowship with other congregations, and we greatly value their input if they were to, if like -minded brethren from outside our own congregations were rebuking us for going astray.

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I know that the church that I'm a member in would certainly take heed to what they were saying, not necessarily that they would always agree with what is being said, but we'll start with you,

36:01

Ken. What is your opinion about what our friend Gordy in Mechanicsburg said about the house churches, but more importantly, having no accountability?

36:12

Yeah, I appreciate Gordy's question. I would say that it is important,

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Chris, that Christians know what their connection is to historic

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Christianity. I don't think people should just belong to any local church.

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I think we should know what the connection is, and that would mean what is the connection to the creeds of Christendom, what is the confession of that particular church.

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I think that it's important to recognize that, you know, creeds and confessions are there to protect us, also to link us to the faith.

36:59

It's very important that a person be involved in a local church, but again, knowing what you believe, why you believe it, what is the church's connection to the authority of Scripture.

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And it's also true that, you know, people get involved in cults sometimes, even as young people.

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Very important to be teaching and instructing people so they know where they're at in the body of Christ.

37:32

And Dr. Ford? I adore everything Ken has said.

37:39

May I add this, that everything that can be used can be abused. You can use a knife to cut an orange or to cut a throat.

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There were no hospitals until the Christian church came into existence. Most of the streams of benevolence, sympathy and kindness the world has known has come from the

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Christian gospel through the Christian church. But the church consists of wheat and tares.

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Every church has people that don't live up to its own standards, but we can't wipe it out because of that.

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We all have governments, and which one of us thinks our government is perfect? There isn't any such thing.

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So wherever you have anything good, you have a risk. But there is an internal monitor for Christians.

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The Holy Spirit is the real vicar of Christ, and the Holy Spirit moves on every surrendered heart to incline them to the love of God and the love of man, to honesty and to purity and to truth.

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But God is no bully. He does not compel. He just invites us to do what is right.

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So yes, there's a risk, but it's worth the risk. Yes, and as I was saying, in fact

39:01

I know of people who are in the home church movement, because there is a movement where those who are in that movement believe that is the superior model for the saints and for the church for all centuries.

39:19

I think that some of them have gone into a cultic extreme and a pride and an arrogance where they are denouncing all that do not agree with them on this.

39:31

But there are very biblical and godly and balanced

39:36

Christians in that movement, and in fact some of those that I know in that movement would agree with our listener

39:43

Gordy that there does exist among them some dangerous trends.

39:49

So there are people in the home church movement themselves who are not blind to the risks and the dangers that go on.

39:56

But thank you very much Gordy for your question. And we have Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island who asks, do you think that most errors in eschatology find their origin in the failure to do grammatical historical exegesis, especially in the case of the book of Revelation in which first century apocalyptic literature, which is first century apocalyptic literature?

40:23

We'll start with you again, Dr., I'm sorry, Brother Ken Samples. Yeah, that's a great question by Tyler, I appreciate it.

40:32

I think that, you know, we have in the 19th century a number of groups that start in a very cultic way, and they have prophetic eschatological interpretations.

40:49

I don't think that they're well grounded in a basic understanding of how passages are to be exegetically understood.

41:01

I think there are times where there is an emphasis on trying to find an identity that is maybe unique.

41:11

I think the Adventists are to some extent in that category. But obviously, you can mishandle the

41:19

Bible. I think that, from my point of view, that Christ will return is more important than the when and the how.

41:29

Christians have different viewpoints on things like the millennium, and I think that we need to learn how to handle scripture, and how to be very discerning and reflective, and I would add charitable to people who may have differences with us on secondary issues.

41:50

And Dr. Ford, your comments? Ken has given us an excellent answer to an excellent question.

41:58

There are two ways of reading the Bible, a right way and a wrong way. The wrong way is the proof text method.

42:06

The proof text method takes texts in isolation, ignores their context, and therefore misinterprets.

42:14

The correct way to read the Bible is known as the historical grammatical attempt to read scripture, by which we take into account the background of each book, the background of each writer.

42:28

We take into account the context, what's known as the Chamberlain's Rules, that you need to know the language, the grammar, the historical setting, the analogy of faith, what the rest of scripture teaches.

42:44

There is a right way and a wrong way, and most people go the wrong way. Proof texting, isolating text, ignoring the context.

42:54

Yes, and wouldn't you say that if we agree on the basics of eschatology that are clearly biblical, such as the visible future return of Christ, the bodily resurrection of the dead in the future, and so on, we do have wiggle room to disagree.

43:18

But one's eschatology should also be judged by what behavior it produces.

43:27

There are certain emphases of eschatology that some groups and individuals have that lead them to very unbiblical and dangerous and even deadly behavior.

43:41

We have one of the examples that sadly and tragically came out of our own backyard,

43:48

Ken Samples, that would be Harold Camping, who professed to be a reformed Christian, and yet he abandoned the three forms of unity and those confessions that he is a

44:01

Dutch Calvinist or from that background at one time at least gave credence to, where he was predicting the end of the world and people were living, and I'm not saying everyone that followed him, but many who were following him were living very irresponsibly.

44:21

They were running up bills on their credit cards thinking they'd never have to pay them and all kinds of things that are done, some even more deadly than that.

44:34

I'm not saying that Harold Camping's followers have done this, but other cult leaders and aberrant figures have led people even to things like suicide, where we had the

44:45

Jonestown Guyana massacre led by Jim Jones, but if you could comment, Ken. I think that's exactly right.

44:53

I think that when you look at these eschatological issues, there are people who engage in date setting.

45:05

We saw that in church history, it's reflected in William Miller, it's reflected in various other people, it's also reflected by people in the evangelical movement in the 20th century.

45:19

People have made set dates. Harold Camping is an egregious example of that, and I can tell you, working in the field of Christian apologetics, non -believers love it when

45:32

Christians do that, because they're able to say, look, oh, well, you say the

45:38

Bible predicted the coming of the Lord, but he didn't appear. I think that Christians need to stay away from date setting.

45:47

I think, as Des articulately set forth, we need to handle the Bible responsibly, we need to learn from the errors that people have made in the past, and I think that, you know,

46:02

I can understand that Christians long for the coming of the Lord. They may look at the world in which we live and see lots of pain and suffering and evil, and they would love to see the

46:14

Lord come, but he'll come in his own good timing, and I think it's important that Christians be thoughtful and judicious and careful, especially when it comes to making predictions.

46:29

That the Lord's going to come, that he will raise the dead, that he will judge humanity, we know those, that's what

46:36

I would call mere Christian eschatology. But be very careful about setting dates, because that gives the church a black eye.

46:45

In fact, you wrote a book called Christian Endgame that deals with eschatology. That's right,

46:51

I have a little book where I talk about what I think are the essentials of eschatology, and I also talk about some of the mistakes that people have made, and I try to compare and contrast.

47:05

I don't tell anyone what position to arrive at, but we look at post -mill, pre -mill, and we look at the various importance of eschatology.

47:19

One biblical scholar said there may be more references to the second coming of Christ in the New Testament than there are to the

47:26

Atonement. So the Bible certainly speaks about prophecy, and it talks about the second coming of the

47:33

Lord, but Christians need to handle all of their beliefs carefully, and in line with a careful reading of the biblical text.

47:43

Yeah, so look out for that. In fact, I would strongly urge you, since CVBBS .com,

47:49

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, since they are a sponsor of Iron Trip and Zion Radio, I would urge you all to order

47:55

Ken's book, Christian Endgame, from CVBBS .com. If they don't already have it in stock, they certainly will order it for you.

48:05

We have a listener... Chris! Yes, Des, I'm sorry, go ahead. Can I add a...

48:11

Oh yes, definitely, definitely. Can I add a piece to what Ken said? Yes. Christ himself said he did not know the exact time of his return.

48:22

He said, neither the sun. So what right have we, mortal humans, to try and make an estimate where Christ himself, he said, could not?

48:35

Neither the sun, regarding the date of the return. It's because people ignore scripture.

48:42

All Ken said is absolutely true. But the Bible says to the law, and to the testimony, if they speak not according to this word, there's no truth in them.

48:52

And it's not for you to know the dates. Acts 1 -7

48:57

NIV. Amen. And we have a question for you,

49:03

Dr. Ford, from B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. B .B.

49:09

wants to know, is there anything specific in the eschatology of the

49:14

Seventh -day Adventist church that you believe was more fertile ground for the

49:21

Branch Davidian understanding of the end times to come to existence? Well, yes, there is.

49:31

J .N. Andrews, after whom the chief university of Adventists is called,

49:38

Andrews University, he taught that the lamb -like beast of Revelation 13 was

49:44

America, USA, and that America would turn from a lamb -like beast to a ravenous, persecuting power.

49:54

So Adventists have this idea from Revelation 13 that America is soon going to become a persecuting power, and men like Vernon Howell expected that they would be tormented by the

50:08

American government, and they were. Well, thank you,

50:14

B .B., and keep spreading the word here in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and beyond. We have, let's see, we have another listener,

50:24

John in Bangor, Maine, and John in Bangor, Maine says, do you not believe that this horrific event in America's history is a lesson to all those in government and also for the voting citizens and the public about the abuse of government power?

50:49

Regardless of how much we may rightly condemn David Koresh and the Branch Davidians, this seems clearly to be an outlandish abuse of authority by the

50:59

American government, which led to such horrific results, where children were murdered, and the very children who perished were ones that were claimed to be the reason for the siege in order to protect them.

51:16

If you could start, Ken, with your response to that. Yeah, that's a really important question that John is asking.

51:26

I've thought a lot about that because, you know, this was a real controversy that Janet Reno and at the time

51:35

President Clinton was forced to give careful consideration.

51:40

I would say two things to John's important question. I would say, first of all, that the government of the

51:50

United States, particularly groups like the FBI, like the

51:56

DATB, they, I think, need to be very much up on religion, on various people who hold various religious perspectives.

52:13

I think that, in some respects, the government was caught.

52:19

I think they looked at David Koresh as a gun smuggler. I think they looked at him as a criminal.

52:27

I think he was all of those things. I think they were deaf to the cultic, religious angle of that.

52:36

But let me say, on the other hand, and here I'm going to make a bit of a controversial point,

52:43

I think sometimes Christians are susceptible to conspiracy theories. Now, a couple reasons why.

52:51

Christians believe that there is a malevolent, invisible hand behind the world, a satanic influence, and Christians often have an eschatological perspective of a one -world government, and so religious people tend to be very distrusting of government.

53:08

Now, of course, you could make a case for that. The founding fathers were.

53:15

Or you could make a political case for something of that as well.

53:21

But I think that religious people sometimes have presuppositions about the government, and there are times where I think the government doesn't understand what was taking place.

53:33

I will tell you, in my considered opinion, I think David Koresh started the fire that killed those people.

53:40

Whether the government handled it properly or not, that's a very serious question as well.

53:47

I mean, they did, the government did drive a tank into the building. So either, I mean, the theories could go either direction.

53:55

But we have to go to a break, and we'll get Des, we'll get your response to that same question, if you would like to formulate an answer during the break.

54:05

We have to go to our longer -than -normal break. Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us a 12 -minute break between our two major segments, so please be patient.

54:16

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01:03:24

And before we return to our guests Dr. Desmond Ford and Ken Samples on the theme

01:03:30

David Koresh, the Branch Davidians, and the Waco, Texas disaster 25 years after the siege, we just have a couple of other very important announcements to make.

01:03:38

First of all, this weekend, God willing, I will be at the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology.

01:03:46

It is no longer held in Philadelphia, it's just affectionately named that in tribute to the late

01:03:51

Dr. James Montgomery Boyce, who for many years had the the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology at 10th

01:03:59

Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia. He is with the Lord for eternity now, so they affectionately call the conference that even though it is now held in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania at Proclamation Presbyterian Church.

01:04:10

That is this weekend, the 27th through the 29th of April. The theme is the

01:04:16

Spirit of the Age and the Age of the Spirit, and speakers include my dear friend

01:04:22

Dr. Conrad Mbewe, pastor of Kibwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa, Jonathan Master, David Murray, Scott Oliphant, and more.

01:04:32

If you'd like to register, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org, click on events, and then click on Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology, the

01:04:41

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Then next month, at the end of next month, May 29th through the 31st, the

01:04:55

Banner of Truth is having their 2018 Ministers Conference on the theme

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Ministers of Christ. The speakers include Alistair Begg, Johnny Gibson, Mark Johnston, Al Mohler of Southern Theological Seminary, David Strain, and Craig Troxell.

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Most of those guests, with the exception of two, have been on this program as guests on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

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If you would like to register for that event, go to banneroftruth .org, banneroftruth .org,

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click on events, and then click on U .S. Ministers Conference. Make sure you click U .S. because they just recently had this week the

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01:08:36

Dr. Desmond Ford and Ken Samples. On our discussion, David Koresh, the Branch Davidians, and the

01:08:42

Waco, Texas disaster 25 years after the siege. It's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:08:50

Dr. Ford, whenever I ask somebody either from the other side of the pond or the other side of the world, as is your case in Australia, I always get a little nervous asking political questions because I have seen that brethren in Christ can be lockstep in agreement on theology, but when it comes to politics, sometimes there is a wider chasm of difference that separates us than we might expect, and it seems to me that very often when

01:09:18

I ask listeners from overseas questions that involve the government in politics, they tend to be much more trusting of their governments.

01:09:31

I happen to be one who agrees with Sir John Dahlberg Acton, also known as Lord Acton, the 19th century brilliant mind who wrote in a letter to an

01:09:45

Anglican bishop, power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

01:09:50

I think that we have to have a healthy distrust or reluctance to believe and follow blindly governments that are over us, at the same time the bible commands us that we have to be subservient to the government as long as the government that God has ordained over us isn't compelling us to sin.

01:10:16

What is your response to what John and Bangor Maine had to say about a lesson to be learned by governments in the way that this situation was handled in Waco, Texas?

01:10:29

Chris, James 3 in verse 2 is pertinent to our listeners' inquiry.

01:10:37

He says in many things we all make many mistakes. That's true of governments as well as ordinary people.

01:10:47

Adventists were wrong when they said the lamb -like beast of Revelation 13 represented

01:10:55

USA. Hal Lindsay gave us a whole bucket of ridiculous national perversions when he wrote

01:11:04

The Late Great Planet Earth. Not a scholar respected by his peers on earth would agree with Hal Lindsay's book.

01:11:13

The secret rapture theory held by many in America is not biblical as all biblical scholars know.

01:11:22

So we are prone to make errors and the government made some errors in 1993.

01:11:30

12 tanks, 4 combat units, 1890 personnel attacking a group smaller than 100 people.

01:11:44

Quite a number of people like Roger Stone and Linda Tripp have even gone so far as to promote the conspiracy theory that the

01:11:56

President of the United States and even more his wife had much to do with pushing

01:12:04

Janet Reno into telling the

01:12:09

US FBI, go ahead, do it today. So I would remind my listener, myself, and all of you who watch today that James is correct.

01:12:22

We all make many mistakes and that includes governments and some of them were made in 1993.

01:12:30

Yes, certainly they were. And we have RJ in White Plains, New York, who wants to know, does the cult, the

01:12:41

Branch Davidians, actually still exist today? And we'll have both of you comment on that and we'll start with you,

01:12:48

Ken. Yeah, that's a good question by RJ. I don't know if there is any official continuation of what was early the

01:13:06

Shepherd's Rod, which became the Branch Davidian. I know there are people that survived the fire.

01:13:15

There were also people that were let out of the compound early on. Some of them have had real difficulty reconciling what happened with their previous faith, but I don't know that there is any official continuation of that religious body.

01:13:36

My thought was that it was really, literally snuffed out. Well, Des, is that true?

01:13:46

What Ken says is right, but there's a handful of people that follow a man who calls himself

01:13:54

Pastor Pace, and he has built another church at the burnt out spot of Mount Carmel.

01:14:03

He's a very odd, eccentric man. He believes in the flat earth, the feminine nature of the

01:14:11

Holy Spirit, but I suspect he's making some income from the hundreds of people who've come to that place to make inquiries about what happened 25 years ago.

01:14:24

So there are some records in newspapers and magazines of what the so -called

01:14:31

Pastor Pace is doing. He's just built an information bureau alongside his church on the very spot of the burnout, but Ken is right.

01:14:41

There's no official branch divisions. And perhaps you both can answer this.

01:14:48

Are there people today that you know of, of course, there could be people that believe anything, but are there people worthy of note that believe still the claims of David Koresh?

01:15:03

And perhaps, Ken, let me start with you. What were the claims? Was he literally claiming to be

01:15:08

Jesus Christ in the flesh? I think the answer to that is yes.

01:15:15

I mean, his ideas developed over time. As we mentioned, he was exposed to prophetic ideas of the 19th century with William Miller and Ellen White.

01:15:31

I think, though, he was a deeply troubled individual psychologically, but he did develop ideas, first being a prophet and then saw himself as even more important than Ellen White in an

01:15:47

Adventist context. Later, he claimed to be the Lamb of the Book of Revelation.

01:15:53

He did call himself the Messiah and even gave himself the title the

01:16:00

Son of God. So I think it's clear that he saw himself as an extension of Jesus Christ.

01:16:08

And I think that what's missing in the context of whether the government did or did not overstep is the deep religious perspective that David Koresh was holding a lot of the cards at the time.

01:16:26

And so, yeah, I see him as a cult leader. I see him as a false Christ in the claims that he made.

01:16:34

And do you know whether there are... I know that you said that the Branch Davidians have dissolved to your knowledge as an official group, but do you know of people who have been known to make public statements that they still believe he was the

01:16:48

Christ and someone that they agreed with his claims even though he perished in the flames of that compound?

01:16:54

I do know that there are some people who survived the fire or were released early on in the siege, and they at times will speak positively about David Koresh or will talk about believing his claims, but I don't know anybody connected, you know, to a significant religious perspective.

01:17:23

The Seventh -day Adventists have renounced David Koresh and have denied association with him, so I don't know anybody other than some of the followers.

01:17:35

And again, I would point out that when you're in a cult, there is both a religious and a psychological element, and so some of these people were deeply damaged by what they experienced, and when they say that they hold

01:17:52

David Koresh in high regard even still, I think that reflects both a theological and a psychological damaging.

01:18:02

And Dr. Ford, I don't know if you have anything to add to that, but there is a question from a listener specifically for you that is related to this.

01:18:10

I agree with all Ken has said, but it must be kept in mind that some of the nine people who survived that fire proclaimed that they expect to see

01:18:23

David Koresh coming in the clouds of heaven in glory, so that just confirms all that Ken has said.

01:18:32

That's true. Yeah, we do have a listener, let's see here, we have

01:18:40

Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who says, Dr. Ford, I know that you must have had some friends that were somehow personally connected to this cult because of the fact that it had its roots in Seventh -day

01:18:54

Adventism, where you spent most of your life. Do you know of anybody who, because of the rise and fall of this cult, has totally abandoned

01:19:04

Christianity or even belief in God altogether? A very good question.

01:19:12

My simple answer is no, I do not know any such. Okay, we're going to go to our final break right now.

01:19:23

I'd rather do it right now than interrupt either of you in mid -sentence. It's going to be a very brief break, and if anybody wants to join us on the air,

01:19:32

I would do it very soon because we are rapidly running out of time, as we always seem to to do on this program, especially when the guests are as fascinating as the two that we have on today.

01:19:42

So send us an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:19:48

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

01:19:53

USA, and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

01:19:59

That's c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Don't go away, we'll be right back with Dr.

01:20:05

Desmond Ford and Ken Samples with more of our discussion on David Koresh and the Branch Davidians and the

01:20:11

Waco disaster 25 years after the siege, right after these messages from our sponsors.

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01:23:27

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01:23:39

.com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the

01:23:45

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01:23:51

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the Pastor's Study, because everyone needs a pastor.

01:23:58

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01:24:07

Pastor's Study, that you heard about that program from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio. And remember, you can hear that program anywhere in the world every

01:24:15

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01:24:23

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01:24:37

AM dial at the same time live every Saturday, 12 noon p .m.

01:24:44

Eastern Time to 1 p .m. Eastern Time. And we are back now with our discussion with Dr.

01:24:51

Desmond Ford and also Ken Samples on the Branch Davidians and the

01:24:57

Waco, Texas disaster. This month marks the 25th anniversary of this disaster.

01:25:06

And as we said earlier, only nine survived the fire on April 19th, which was the final day of the siege, and 76

01:25:18

Branch Davidians perished. So this is quite a horrific tragedy.

01:25:25

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

01:25:33

I'll have Ken, you start with an answer. And then if Desmond wants to chime in, we have Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who asks, were the allegations that actually started the siege by our government to begin with ever proven, primarily the allegations that there was pedophilia and child rape going on in the cult?

01:25:59

Yeah, very controversial topic in question. I'm glad Ronald raised the question.

01:26:06

I think the answer is clearly none of this was ever proven and adjudicated, mainly because of the horrific death to the vast majority of people involved.

01:26:22

There were allegations that David Koresh had multiple wives.

01:26:29

I think that's pretty clear. But some of the other allegations of having sex with young women under age was, of course, never proven in court.

01:26:43

And Dr. Ford, do you have anything to add? Yes, Chris. The biggest blemish in the

01:26:51

Mount Carmel group was this. They did not know the Christian gospel.

01:26:58

That we need not remain a single moment longer unsaved.

01:27:04

If we come as beggars, we'll go away as princes. But if we come as princes to Christ, we go away as beggars.

01:27:12

But if we come with an empty hand, a naked hand, he says, he that cometh to me,

01:27:18

I'll have no wife cast out. He's a God that justifies the ungodly.

01:27:24

Only God is given away. Only heaven can be had for the asking. There was no gospel in Mount Carmel.

01:27:33

That's the greatest blemish. Amen. And we have a listener who has a question specifically for Ken Samples, but of course,

01:27:42

Dr. Ford can also respond. We have, let's see here, we have

01:27:50

C .J. in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who says, Ken, can you please give us some warning signs that all should take heed to in regard to whether or not the church or religion they belong to is indeed a cult?

01:28:11

Yeah, that's a great, that is a great question. And I think that, you know, one of the things that comes out of the

01:28:23

French Davidians is the very serious problem with religious cults, and I think we see that clearly in Vernon Howe, who then claims to be

01:28:35

David Koresh. Rather than exalting the triune God, rather than recognizing

01:28:42

Jesus Christ alone as our Lord and Savior, David Koresh began making claims to be the second coming of Christ, so there were doctrinal issues that are raised.

01:28:58

If you are in any particular religious group that moves away from the

01:29:04

Christian view of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, that denies or makes claims for someone other than Christ being the

01:29:14

Savior, and as Deb so eloquently put it, if there is a denial of the gospel, you know, people are looking for hope, they're looking for they're looking for their sins to be forgiven, they want to have a relationship with God.

01:29:33

I think that was true of the people largely in the compound, but there was no grace, there was no salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone.

01:29:47

There was a lot of works righteousness, so there are doctrinal concerns and red flags that come up.

01:29:54

There are also abusive elements. Again, taking multiple wives, this is so consistent with Jim Jones, with other occultic elements.

01:30:07

Sexual abuse, another sign. So I think there were both sociological and theological red flags, and I think that this is a lesson that hopefully many people can recognize, and I would say there are also eschatological lessons.

01:30:30

You know, eschatology, the genre of apocalyptic literature in the

01:30:36

Bible is challenging to understand and interpret. Christians have taken different positions on some of these issues.

01:30:44

We should be careful not to speculate, you should never set dates, and you know, really, in a biblical context, the second coming is intended for us to affirm our belief in the gospel and to aspire to live holy lives, not to sell everything we have and expect the

01:31:10

Lord's coming at any moment. So I think there are many lessons that we can learn from this tragic, terrible event that happened 25 years ago.

01:31:20

Dr. Ford, do you have anything to add? I love what Ken has said, excellent.

01:31:27

I can only add this. There are three words which, if believed, would change the world and change the church and destroy any cult.

01:31:38

Here are the words. God is love. Now 1

01:31:44

Corinthians 13 says that where there is true love, it seeketh not her own, does not behave itself unseemly, is not puffed up, does not envy, is patient, very kind.

01:32:01

There is no cult that fulfills 1 Corinthians 13 and 1

01:32:07

John 4 .8. God is love. Not just God is loving, that's what he does.

01:32:14

God is love, that's his nature. So if a cult sees that truth, it immediately disintegrates or becomes

01:32:23

Christian. And we have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania who wants to know,

01:32:29

Dr. Ford, I hope I didn't miss this earlier because I am joining the program later, but I was wondering if you know of anybody who is a survivor of this tragedy that actually came to a genuine saving knowledge of the true

01:32:44

Christ of Scripture and repented of these false beliefs that they previously held with the

01:32:49

Branch Davidians? I'm sorry, I cannot give you a positive yes to that.

01:32:58

There was nothing in what Vernon Howell taught that would have led people to the

01:33:05

Gospel. The Gospel is that God wants to save us. He loves us.

01:33:11

He died for the ungodly while we were without strength. While we were yet enemies, he died for us.

01:33:17

There was none of this in Vernon Howell, so I'm afraid there was nothing that could have begun people to go to the path of the

01:33:27

Gospel. I could be wrong, but I think what our listener was meaning by his question was that sometimes

01:33:37

God uses horrifying experiences like sparing us or rescuing us from death or something to rattle us to abandon false beliefs and to turn to the true and living

01:33:50

Christ and the true Gospel, because he did have actually in his question built in there the repentance of the false beliefs of the

01:33:59

Branch Davidians. So I think that what he was meaning is, do you know of anybody who survived who was rattled enough and frightened enough that they turned to the living

01:34:09

God, the true living God for mercy, as a result of being spared death? Chris, you are right.

01:34:17

That's what the question is asking. I do not know of anyone, but it doesn't mean there weren't any.

01:34:24

God does many things that we do not perceive. What we do know is that all things work together for good.

01:34:32

So there may be some people who learned from this tragedy and found grace, found acceptance with Jesus through belief in the cross.

01:34:43

There may be such. I just do not know them personally. We have an anonymous listener who says,

01:34:51

Dr. Ford, is there anything inherent within Seventh -day Adventism, especially their exalting

01:35:00

Ellen G. White to a prophetess, that would still leave it as fertile ground for a future

01:35:07

David Koresh to rise up? After all, if you believe in modern -day extra -biblical prophets and prophetesses, who are we to automatically rule them out as being honest?

01:35:21

Yes, that is all possible, my friend. There have been people in the last 75 years who have claimed to replace

01:35:34

Ellen White. So that is possible. That is true. But remember, abuse does not cancel use.

01:35:43

Luther had his counterfeiters. So did Calvin. And these were giants of Christian faith.

01:35:50

Wherever there is good, Satan comes with evil counterfeits. But in Adventism, the danger is, as you suggest, that some people who know not the gospel may rise up and start another cult.

01:36:04

That is possible. Now, what, to your knowledge, is the position of these replacements, as you call them, for Ellen White?

01:36:14

I mean, are any of them being tolerated in the Seventh -day Adventist denomination?

01:36:20

You know, are they members of churches? Not for long. I'm sorry? Not for long. Oh, so they've all been dismissed or excommunicated?

01:36:29

Some of them lasted for a while, with a small number of followers.

01:36:36

But the church ultimately threw them all off. And, in fact, if you could,

01:36:45

Ken, if you could also comment on the danger of modern -day prophets and prophetesses, or so -called.

01:36:58

Yeah, I think that a very unhealthy element that has come out of what

01:37:06

I would call traditional Adventism is, again, the idea that you could have a modern -day prophet.

01:37:15

I see Adventism as being pretty diverse. There are evangelical

01:37:21

Adventists. Des Ford was really the champion of what I would call evangelical

01:37:27

Adventism. I don't know that anybody has the kind of force and presentation that Des had when he was a

01:37:38

Seventh -day Adventist. There are also traditional Adventists who look to more of the distinctive elements of the 19th century.

01:37:47

Yeah, there are those that even call Des a heretic, and they call his theology

01:37:54

Fordism. This is true. Of course, coming out of particularly the 1980s,

01:38:04

I will tell you, because I don't live too far from Loma Linda, which is an

01:38:10

Adventist center, a hospital there by the Adventists, as well as a very scholarly university, there are liberal

01:38:20

Adventists. That is, Adventists who have accepted kind of higher critical theories of the Bible.

01:38:26

They've gone to more liberal schools. I've interacted with some of those as well. But I would also tell you,

01:38:33

I've also bumped into Adventists who I would say are cultural Adventists. That is, they don't know a whole lot about doctrine and theology, but they like the health emphasis, and they're kind of, you know, they haven't really committed themselves.

01:38:50

So you have diversity within Seventh -day Adventism. And I think it's also appropriate to say that the

01:38:57

Adventists were very strong in really disconnecting themselves from Vernon Howe and from the

01:39:06

Branch Davidians, and I think that they have hopefully learned some lessons about some of the eschatological speculation that is so rooted in their past.

01:39:18

So it's clear that they did kick David Koresh out of their ranks.

01:39:25

We have another anonymous listener who says,

01:39:31

I have friends who are Reform Seventh -day Adventists, and I have heard that they are the most cultic of all.

01:39:40

Is this true? And we could start with Dr. Ford. There are people who came out of the

01:39:49

First World War who were conscientious objectors and greatly condemned the

01:39:57

Adventist Church when it went along in Germany with the leaders of the

01:40:03

German nation. And from that has sprung a group called Reform Seventh -day

01:40:09

Adventists, who are very often wonderful, earnest Christians, but usually without scholarship, very, very ignorant, even biblically, but usually with a good heart and a desire to serve

01:40:26

Christ. Is there anything uniquely aberrant about their gospel?

01:40:36

From what I understand, they are—and I could be wrong— Legalism. Yeah, they are more than anyone affirming a view of Ellen G.

01:40:47

White as a prophetess and her writings as on par with the scripture, which would mean also a false gospel that involves the investigative judgment.

01:41:00

Yes, that is true. They are more Adventists than most Adventists, and they go against what

01:41:07

Ellen White said. They use her books as Bibles, and she forbade that, but they do it.

01:41:14

So the Reform Adventists exaggerate the wrong positions that are tangential to Adventism today.

01:41:25

The worst of Adventism as regards the extremes with Ellen White are found in Reform Seventh -day

01:41:33

Adventists, yes. We have a question for Ken Samples that obviously

01:41:39

Dr. Ford can also respond afterward. We have—let's see here, where was that?

01:41:47

We have Cynthia in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who says,

01:41:55

Isn't the continuationist or non -cessationist understanding of biblical revelation or God -breathed revelation at heart here when people believe that the word of God is not sufficient and that he is still revealing things that were not recorded in scripture to individuals, and therefore there is a very subjective situation rather than objective whether or not a person is really speaking from God or from his own imagination or actual attempts at deceiving people?

01:42:39

Yes, Cynthia's raised, I think, a very earnest concern. I mean, even in the evangelical world, there are people that appeal more seemingly to their own personal experiences than they do to a sound understanding of scripture.

01:42:57

There is always the concern that people are going to teach things based upon their experience, and there has been a lot of discussion in history about people who make prophetic claims and how those prophetic claims would be compared and contrasted with the authority of scripture.

01:43:23

I think the reality— Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in. Sorry, that was a malfunction there.

01:43:32

I think we live at a time where we need a lot of good discernment. We need lots of good instruction in scripture, and certainly there is always concern that people are going to exalt an individual or some kind of prophetic position above scripture.

01:43:53

Dr. Ford, do you have anything to add? Yes. Christ said we should not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

01:44:07

No one has a right to proclaim as Christian truth anything that is not clearly and repeatedly stated in holy scripture.

01:44:19

Amen. And there are Pentecostals and Charismatics, and I try my best always not to broad brush them because they are very diverse, but some will say that I believe

01:44:36

God communicates through divine revelation today, just as he did in the apostolic era.

01:44:44

Then the way that we judge whether it's true or false is whether or not it contradicts scripture.

01:44:51

The problem that I have with that is that you could say, for instance, that God has revealed to you that a member of the church is supposed to marry another member of the church, and someone could say that that does not contradict any teaching in the

01:45:10

Bible. But I still think that that is an equally dangerous and heretical practice that can lead to all kinds of deception and falsehood.

01:45:21

Would you both agree with that? Yes, of course. A very important statement from Paul is this.

01:45:30

Without holiness, no one shall see the Lord. So any teaching that violates the teachings of Christ and Paul, anything that violates the

01:45:41

Decalogue, the Sermon on the Mount, the second half of the Epistles of Paul, which are about behavior, if there's no holiness, there's no holiness,

01:45:52

W -H -O -L -E, N -E -W -S, for God. Without holiness, no one can see the

01:45:58

Lord. So extraneous revelations usually diverge from what scripture teaches about behavior.

01:46:07

Well, Ken, there are people, though, that may even embarrass us and put us to shame in regarding their morality, their outward righteousness, and so on, their sobriety, their chasteness, and so on, their generosity, their benevolence, but they can still be false preachers and false prophets, can't they?

01:46:33

Well, that's certainly the case. I mean, there are people who can have a form of godliness, but their doctrine can be heretical.

01:46:43

I do think that it is important as a Christian, if you believe in salvation by grace, we should endeavor to be gracious people.

01:46:54

We are broken, fallen, forgiven sinners. I do think, while I am not a

01:47:00

Charismatic or a Pentecostal, I do think that there are Pentecostal and Charismatic Christians who attempt to conform their view of the spiritual gifts in accord with scripture.

01:47:17

But, of course, that is a contested issue in many circles within the evangelical world, and any time you have people who are making claims to have experiences, they need to be seriously tested.

01:47:34

And we have the word -faith movement, which I think is clearly heretical and cultic.

01:47:43

So, doctrine, Paul tells us, you know, watch your life and your doctrine closely.

01:47:49

That is enormously good advice for Christian people living today. Now, I mentioned earlier, sola scriptura,

01:47:57

I believe, being at the root of—a denial of sola scriptura, being at the root of the rise of cults.

01:48:05

And for those of our listeners who do not know what that means, that watchword of the Reformation, it is basically that the scripture alone is our sole infallible authority for the

01:48:17

Church. It does not mean that we do not glean wisdom from godly men and women and their writings and so on.

01:48:25

It just means that we only have one sole authority. But the other thing that goes hand -in -hand with sola scriptura is the belief in the sufficiency of scripture.

01:48:38

This longing that people have as if they have exhausted the knowledge that God's word, the

01:48:46

Bible, provides. They're looking for something fresh and new and novel and exciting that somehow gels with current events and things that we see in the newspaper and the

01:48:59

TV. Isn't this really, again, one of the crucial areas, the sufficiency of scripture, that we cannot drift from?

01:49:09

And when those that do drift from them, they are very often starting to formulate and found things that are cults.

01:49:20

And let's start with— Yes. Des, you could start with that answer, and then Ken, you could follow.

01:49:29

Yes, indeed. It's written in scripture. It is written again.

01:49:36

We need to take all that scripture says on a certain subject.

01:49:42

In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be tested. So when people claim to have truths outside the

01:49:51

Bible, we must test them by all on that subject that the scripture offers—faith alone, grace alone, scripture alone.

01:50:03

That's Christian doctrine. Amen. And Ken, anything to say? I think that the authority issue is always a critical issue.

01:50:14

It is the dividing element within Christendom. I think probably the major difference between Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox has to do with the authority issue, whether it is the pope, the patriarch, or scripture as the supreme authority.

01:50:36

I think, however, within evangelicalism, the challenge is how does one's religious experience then accord with the authority of scripture?

01:50:46

But the question of scripture's authority, its sufficiency, its clarity, those remain,

01:50:53

I think, the hallmark of what it means to be a Protestant historic

01:50:58

Christian. Now, I'd like you to both respond to this.

01:51:05

There are many people—and I think, in fact, most, if not all, natural men, those that are not regenerate, look for excuses to reject

01:51:17

Christ and his claims and reject the gospel, reject the Bible. They'll bring up people like David Koresh, and they will say, you see, why should

01:51:29

I believe in this Jesus or believe in religion at all when you have all these kooks like David Koresh, and you have them on the

01:51:37

TV that might not be as dangerous as David Koresh, but they're robbing people of money with all kinds of false promises, and there's all kinds of false teachers, false prophets, false prophetesses around.

01:51:51

Why should I believe in what you have to say about Jesus when you could just be another kook?

01:51:56

How do you respond to that? We'll start with you, Ken. Yeah, it's a good question.

01:52:04

It's raised often. I think we see it in the context of people making predictions.

01:52:09

Certainly Christians can give nonbelievers reasons to question and to doubt the faith, but I think it's also, and Des has underscored this a couple times in our discussion, that abuse doesn't rule out proper use.

01:52:26

Because there are people who either intentionally or unintentionally engage in inappropriate and even sinful, illegal behavior doesn't mean that there aren't wonderful Christian people.

01:52:40

And I like what Des alluded to earlier. You know, when you think of things like hospitals and education and being anti -slavery, historic

01:52:52

Christians have led the way in recognizing the value and the dignity of human people who are made in the image of God.

01:53:00

And I would also say that in the 20th century, we had totalitarianism, which was anti -God, who murdered many millions of more people than any religious cult could do.

01:53:15

So everybody has to bring their worldview to bear, and secularism has a lot of blood on its hands.

01:53:23

But I want to underscore, I think Christians should take real responsibility. Don't predict dates.

01:53:30

That's only going to hurt the cause of Christ. And Dr. Ford, any comments on that?

01:53:38

I agree wholeheartedly with what Ken has said. Perhaps this could be added. Nobody has a $13 note.

01:53:48

The existence of counterfeits implies that there is a reality. There have been 10 billion people born on this planet.

01:53:57

But no one like Jesus Christ, who could say heaven and earth will pass away, but my word shall not pass away.

01:54:06

No one has ever found an error in the teachings of Christ. He only spoke about what was true, not what was trivial, not what was temporal, not what was false.

01:54:18

No other teacher like that. Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, they taught for 150 years.

01:54:26

Jesus taught for three and a half, but his three and a half transcend all other teachers put together.

01:54:34

So false Christ should be a reminder to us there is a true Christ, and his name is

01:54:41

Jesus. Amen. Well, I want you each to, for a minute, summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before we go off the air.

01:54:51

And Dr. Ford, if you could begin, and then we'll close with you, Ken. Well, the lesson to be learned from Vernon Howell is put

01:55:04

God in his place. Don't put any man in the place of God.

01:55:10

Don't listen to anyone that claims to be another Christ. There's only one Jesus.

01:55:16

So I think the main thing we learn from the Vernon Howell, David Koresh affair is give

01:55:22

God his place. The Lord's Prayer begins with God. The Bible begins with God.

01:55:28

In the beginning, God. The first commandment is about God. So Christians must learn to put first first, not first things first.

01:55:36

Things come last, thou shalt not covet anything. We learn from this debacle at Mount Carmel that God must be given his place, that God revealed in Jesus hanging naked on the cross for you and me.

01:55:53

Praise God. And Ken Samples, if you could conclude with a minute of summary. Yeah, I think that I like Des' comment very much that there are counterfeit gospels.

01:56:07

There are counterfeit messiahs. There are people who teach false doctrine.

01:56:15

And that doesn't rule out the true gospel. It doesn't rule out that Christ is

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Lord and Savior. I think these terrible experiences of cults can teach us lessons, the need to be very discerning about what we believe, to have close connections to historic

01:56:37

Christianity. And I think as well, the recognition of having a bold witness for the

01:56:46

Lord Jesus Christ. And that means taking doctrine seriously. It also means, as Des alluded to earlier, taking on our desire to love people, to be as gracious as we can, and to recognize that these terrible events can hopefully teach us good lessons for the future.

01:57:10

Well, I know, Ken, that the website for Reasons to Believe is reasons .org,

01:57:19

reasons .org. Do you have anything further to add to that contact information? Yes, you can go on reasons .org.

01:57:27

Lots of articles on theology, on apologetics. We focus a lot on science -faith issues.

01:57:35

On amazon .com, there are copies of the book I co -authored, Prophets of the

01:57:41

Apocalypse. And that will give you the story, the history of David Koresh and the

01:57:50

Branch Davidians. And, Des, I know that you work with Good News Unlimited, and their website is goodnews, and then the abbreviation of Unlimited, unltd .org,

01:58:01

goodnewsunltd .org. Do you have any other contact information that you care to share? Well, perhaps the most important is this.

01:58:10

I've written about two school books, about 40 books. Most of these are available on Amazon.

01:58:16

They're mainly on the gospel and Christian lifestyle. People can get them through Amazon.

01:58:22

Well, I want to thank you both for being on this program, perhaps even not to in any way diminish my excitement about you being on,

01:58:33

Ken, but Des, for waking up so early. You must have woken up about four in the morning to be on the show, since you're in Australia.

01:58:40

I want to thank you both for being on the program. I look forward to you both returning. I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who wrote in questions.

01:58:48

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater