April 25, 2018 Show with Dr. Desmond Ford AND Ken Samples on “David Koresh, the Branch Davidians & The Waco, Texas Disaster 25 Years After the Siege”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in

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To proverbs 27.

Verse 17 tells us Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth.

We're listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio.

Wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 25th day of April 2018.

This month marks the 25th anniversary of the end of the

siege carried out by American federal and Texas state law enforcement and the u .s. Military

beginning one and a half months earlier in 1993 upon the compound of a cult

known as the Branch Davidians.

Led by its false Messiah David Koresh.

This resulted in a horrific fire only nine survived the April 19th

fire and 76 Branch Davidians perished and we're going to be talking about David

Koresh The Branch Davidians and the Waco, Texas disaster.

25 years after the siege today and our guests to do this.

First of all, our dr Desmond Ford who is a teacher and minister of the gospel and has been

for over 50 years.

He's the former head of the religion department at Avondale College in Australia.

For over 16 years former member of the biblical research committee of the Seventh -day Adventist chief

theological committee in both Australia both in Australia and now working

independently through a Nonprofit ministry for over 20 years in Auburn, California and the USA called

Good News Unlimited.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio.

Dr. Desmond Ford.

And also joining us today another Returning guest who I have had the

privilege of calling my friend since the 1980s.

Ken samples former senior research consultant and correspondent editor at the Christian

Research Institute.

Also known as CRI former co -host of the Bible answer man radio broadcast current

senior research scholar at reasons to believe and leader of reason to believe

straight thinking podcast host of the Reflections blog speaker at universities and

churches worldwide an author of a number of books including Prophets of the Apocalypse

David Koresh and other American Messiahs and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back.

Also, the orange urban Zion radio my old friend Ken samples.

Hi, Chris.

It's good to be with you and a great topic and it's also great to be on with

my old friend.

And Des Des deserves are an extra congratulations because it's about 6

a .m. There in Brisbane, Australia.

And we appreciate you taking the time to participate in this.

Well, basically what I want to do is.

First of all, let me give our listeners our email address.

If you have any questions about this cult the branch David Ian's or its leader David Koresh.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, please only remain anonymous if your question involves a Personal and private

matter.

I am truly amazed about how time flies.

Because it seems that this siege this horrific siege that ended in

disaster and death Only took place yesterday.

And I was speaking with the one of the sons of the woman who led me to Christ back in the 1980s.

He's in his late 20s.

And he had no clue what I was talking about when I was referring to David Koresh in the branch David Ian's or the Waco

Texas disaster he had no idea but What I'd like to do is to start off

Ken with some of the specific details about who David Koresh

was who the branch David Ian's were how they started and how they came to this point

of being under siege.

By the American federal and Texas state law enforcement and the United States military

and then we'll have Des for join in in the conversation because I know that he Has

personal connection with people that had personal connection with David Koresh and this cult, but if you could

start off Ken Tell us about who David Koresh was and how he eventually started this cult.

Yeah.

Thank you very much.

Born in

1950s.

Mother was only 14 years old.

She was a single mother.

Vernon Howell never met his father.

He said that When he grew up, he felt lonely.

He suffered from dyslexia.

Who's got teased quite a bit when he was about seven and

he said he had a born -again a short time a Baptist Church

and then later church where he became

all things into the world.

Eschatology the book of Revelation and even though he Didn't read and write

very well.

We had a very good smart young man and had a good memory.

Could quote large passages from the Old Testament

Various prophetic.

In 1982.

He joined a particular called the branch.

This was a person

there

was

unplayed

between

an army

of

this

of course

leave.

They

risked

their lives for

of the BATF.

He had

followed a.

22 of them were under

age 17.

The evidence see

about how

the

man named

Steve

Schneider

Walter

Martin who were entitled

profit other

American

Messiah.

Yeah, I

remember

when that first

came out.

Yeah, I remember when it first came out and I was getting you Interviews on the Andy Anderson live program on

WMC a radio where I worked.

I remember that.

Yeah this is before I had my own program and I clearly remember.

In fact, I still have a copy somewhere and I hope that Somehow

our listeners can get a hold of that because it is available on Amazon still even though it's out of print.

Is it not?

Well.

Dr. Ford you Were for many years for most of your life.

You were a member of the Seventh -day Adventist Church.

Before you had a very public falling out with them.

Because you rightly very very rightly publicly opposed

and denounced.

The.

Doctrine of the investigative judgment, which basically Would lead one if if

one were to embrace embrace that teaching that would lead one to a false gospel Which

requires the works of man in order to be made right with God, but that is not the topic of our

discussion today.

I just wanted to Have you? recollect

as a Seventh -day Adventist.

What was going through your mind when you initially heard about the branch Davidian cult even forming

and if you? Could relate to our audience any kind of connection you had with people

who had first -hand experience.

In

some

way

with

David

Koresh

in

this

cult.

Yeah.

Sure.

Go

ahead.

Well, let me

say

thing a day.

Ultimately came round to October 22 1844.

Now, this is in direct contradiction the hex one

Verse seven, which says it

is not the date

prophecy and here Chris's Adventism

well over a hundred years as nourished and Taught the

same dates the prophetic dates that William Miller taught.

He believed that 538 began papal supremacy 1260

years.

1798 ended it.

There's not a breath of his.

538 was one of the worst years of the papacy and it's quite ridiculous to

say that papal supremacy began in 538 but Adventism

adopted this from William Miller and Vernal Howell

Caught it now.

We have to remember the Eastern Orthodox Church a huge group of many millions

Never accepted the papacy.

So it's just the papacy became supreme in

religion 538 now Chris.

This is very important.

Vernon Howell claims to have an interpretation.

He knew what Adventist did with the book of Revelation

Uriah Smith on Daniel and Revelation

Influenced by that Adventist influence.

Despite the fact that it never supported,

but please note this every prophetic date that

Vernal Howell learned from his Adventist associations

1844 by 38 to 1798

August 11 1840 predicted against

Turkish Ottoman power, which never happened.

Vernon Howell learned all these dates in his Adventist association and not one

of the dates.

One.

Antagonistic for Adventism.

I love them.

Of their errors and most their errors are prophetic

errors.

Very

happy.

Of

revelation

on which

I

Jesus.

Well, you have an

open door

on this

program

to

debate

them.

If you can arrange that Desmond, I would love to Host a debate between you and a leading Seventh

-day Adventist scholar or theologian on this program.

That'd be great but Ken samples.

Ken samples you and I and I know that Desmond believes this as well In a

pillar of the Reformation known as Sola Scriptura.

Isn't the denial of Sola Scriptura either formally or unconsciously

The breeding ground for Vernon Howell's to come into the world and become David Koresh's.

Yeah, I think nominon of

people like Vernon so -called David Koresh.

I think you have to look to me.

This is.

This is a young man who never met his father.

His mother was 14.

He was raised a good bit by his grandparents gave him an

Adventist upbringing and Dez is correct.

He He studied not only William Miller the Baptist leader

in the 19th century but he studied as well Ellen G White and That prophetic

orientation I think was deeply imprimand on him.

Of course, he is a cult leader as well.

I mean He is a person who was involved in violence physical violence.

He was involved in

certainly when we look at the question of

his own he was influenced by the

idea that there would be perfecting Ellen White and

to see himself as I mentioned but

later as to that

kind of Divine line and so, you know one

author in the

Dutch Reformed Thinker and theologian he said that the

cults are the unpaid bills of the church and I think

like

Vernon

how so King young

people earning and reflective.

I mean scripture is replete with with warnings about false

God,

I'm

going to

read a

quote.

I'm gonna

read

a question from

a listener.

In Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, and I'll have both of you respond to it when we return from our first commercial.

Break the question from Gordy and Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania.

The.

Potential for more cults like the Branch Davidians would certainly seem to be a

testimony against Quote quote home churches which tend to have

little if any accountability.

What are your thoughts?

I have my own thoughts about that.

But I'll chime in when we return from the break as well.

And I think we have to be careful not to broad brush.

All.

Christians who worship in someone's home because that's actually the way the New Testament Saints

began their their worship.

Back in the Apostolic era it was mainly in people's homes where they were worshiping.

So we have to be careful not to broad brush there.

But we'll have you to respond when we come back from the break.

I want to remind our guests all the way there in Australia dr. Ford during the break.

We can hear you unless you mute your microphone or unless you unless you don't speak.

So, please either try to mute your microphone or remain silent during the station breaks because

Everyone will hear what you're saying during the breaks.

Yeah, and our email address is our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris a are n z e n a gmail .com.

If you would like to join the others who are over where already waiting to have their questions asked and answered.

By our guests Ken samples and des for don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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And we have back on the program To discuss David Koresh the branch Davidians

and the Waco, Texas disaster 25 years after the siege.

Our guests.

Dr Desmond Ford who is a teacher and minister of the gospel for over 50 years former head of

the religion department at Avondale College in Australia for over 16 years former member of the

Biblical Research Committee of the Seventh -day Adventist chief theological committee in both Australia

now working independently through a nonprofit ministry for over 20 years in Auburn,

California and the USA called Good News Unlimited and we also have

Ken samples for news former senior research consultant and Correspondent editor editor for the Christian

Research Institute known as CRI former co -host of the Bible Answer Man radio broadcast

current senior research scholar at reasons to believe leader of reasons to believes

straight thinking podcast and host of the Reflections blog an author of a number of books including

prophets of the Apocalypse David Koresh and other American Messiahs.

Our email address is Chris Aronson at gmail .com Chris a RN z en at gmail

.com.

And before I go to that question from our listener Gordy and mechanics Berg.

Did you two meaning?

Dr. Ford and Brother samples.

Did you two meet each other through the friendship of Walter Martin?

For Walter Martin at Walter Martin's Bible class that he taught many years in Southern, California and

I heard dr. Ford preach on justification by faith and Chris.

I thought wow, this must be the way Martin Luther sounded.

Des was women

and through my relationship with Walter Martin I got to develop a close

friendship with Desmond Ford and I've learned a lot from him.

I admire his courage and His great clarity on the doctrine of justification by

faith, yes by faith alone.

And.

Dr. Ford. I know that you are a humble enough man for me to ask this question without you being offended But

may I ask how old you are?

Praise God you are Someone for all of us to admire that we could

Be this bold and vibrant In proclaiming Christ and him crucified and him

as our only hope for salvation after all those decades

Amen.

Well, let me go back to Our listener Gordy's question that I read to you both before

we had the station break.

Gordy says the potential for more cults like the Branch Davidians would certainly seem to be a testimony

against home churches Which tend to have little if any accountability.

What are your thoughts?

I think that the last part of his sentence is really the important part having

no or little accountability because I'm sure that there are gatherings that

are churches which are Have been established in people's homes and

continue to gather in people's homes that do have accountability.

With other congregations, I mean I happen to be a Reformed Baptist and we believe in the

autonomy of the local church.

We don't believe in a denial denominational hierarchy but at the same time we have fellowship with

other congregations and we greatly value their input if they were to Like

-minded brethren from outside our own congregations were rebuking us for going astray.

I know that the church that I'm a member in would certainly take heed to what they were saying not necessarily that they would always

agree with what is being said, but We'll start with you Ken.

What is your opinion about?

What our friend Gordy and mechanics Berg said about the house churches, but more importantly having no

accountability.

Yeah, I appreciate Gordy's question.

I

Don't think that just belong

To any any local church, I think we should know and

that would mean What is the connection to the creeds of Christendom?

What what is the concept that it's

important to recognize that you know?

Creeds and confessions are there to put a linkage.

It's very important that a person be involved in a local church but again

Knowing what you believe why you believe a

connection to the authority of Scripture and it's also true

that You know people

get involved seeing and instructing people so they know

where they're at in in the body of Christ.

And dr. Ford.

Everything that can be used can be abused.

You can use a

knife to cut on

the Christian gospel,

but the church.

Every church.

Wipe it out

because of

that.

We all

have

governments.

Yes, and.

As I was saying.

That in fact, I know of people who are in the home church movement because there is a movement

where?

Those who are in that movement believe that is the superior model.

For the Saints and for the church.

For all.

Centuries, I think that some of them have gone into an a cultic extreme

and a pride and an arrogance.

Where they are denouncing all that do not agree with them on this, but there are very biblical and

godly and balanced Christians in that movement and in fact some of

those that I know in that movement would agree with our listener Gordy.

That there there does exist among them some dangerous trends.

So there are people in the home church movement themselves who are not blind to the the

risks and the dangers that go on.

But thank you very much Gordy for your question and we have Tyler in Mastic Beach Long Island who

asks do you think that most errors in eschatology find their origin in the failure

to do?

Grammatical historical exegesis.

Especially in the case of the book of Revelation in which first century Apocalyptic

literature, which is first century apocalyptic literature.

We'll start with you again.

The doctor.

I'm sorry a brother Ken samples.

Yeah, that's a great question by Tyler.

I appreciate it.

I think that you know, we have in the 19th century a number of

in a very cultic way and they have

Prophetic eschatological Interpretations.

I don't think that they're well grounded in.

In a basic understanding of how passages are to be exegetically

understood I I think there are times where There is an

emphasis find an identity that that is maybe

unique.

I think the Adventists are to some extent in that category.

But obviously you can mishandle the Bible.

I think that from my point of view that Christ will return is more important

than the win and the how viewpoints on things like

the Millennium and I think that We need to learn how to and

how to be very very discerning and reflective and I would add charitable to

people who may secondary issues and dr. Ford your

comments.

Has given us an excellent answer to an excellent question.

There are two ways of reading life.

Yes, and wouldn't you say.

That.

If we agree on the basics of eschatology that are clearly biblical such as the

visible future return of Christ The bodily resurrection of the

of the dead in the future and so on we do have Wiggle room to disagree,

but one's eschatology Should also be judged by What

behavior it produces.

There are certain? emphasis of emphases of eschatology that some groups and

individuals have that lead them to very unbiblical and dangerous and even

deadly behavior.

We have one of the Examples that sadly and tragically came out of our

own backyard.

Ken samples that would be Harold camping Who professed to be a reformed Christian and yet he

abandoned? The three forms of unity and those confessions that he

is a Dutch Calvinist or from that background at one time at least

gave credence to where he was predicting the end of the world and people were

Living and I'm not saying everyone that followed him but many Who are following him were living

very? irresponsibly.

They were running up bills on their credit cards thinking they'd never have to pay them and

all kinds of Things that are that are done some even more

deadly than that.

I'm not saying that Harold campings followers have done this but other cult leaders and And

aberrant figures have led people even to things like suicide where we had the Jonestown Guyana massacre

Led by Jim Jones, but if you could comment Ken.

Look at these eschatological issues, there are people who engage in

dates all that it's reflected in William Miller.

It's reflected

evangelical movement in the 20th century.

People have herald camping is an egregious example of

that and I can tell you working in the field of Christian apologetics.

Non -believers love it when Christians do that.

Because they're able to say loving of the Lord,

but he didn't didn't appear.

I think that Christians need to stay away from date as does

Articulately set forth we need to we

need to learn from the errors and I you

know.

They're like I can understand that Christians long for the coming of the Lord.

They may look at the way pain and suffering and evil and

they they would love to see the Lord come come in his own good timing

and.

Especially when it comes to making pretty at the Lord's going to come that he will raise

the dead that he will judge Christian F.

It's awful about pretty much a black guy.

In fact, you wrote a book called Christian endgame that deals with eschatology.

That's right.

I have a little book where I talk about What I think are the essentials of

eschatology.

And I often I try to compare and contrast.

I don't help arrive at that.

We look at all and we look at

Importance of eschatology.

One biblical scholar said there may be more references to the second coming of Christ in the New Testament than

there are to the atonement so the Bible Certainly speaks about prom

coming of the Lord, but Christians need to handle all of their and in

line with yes.

So look out for that.

In fact, I would strongly urge you since Cvbbs .com Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service

since they are a sponsor of Iron Trip and Zion radio I would urge you all to order Ken's

book Christian endgame from Cvbbs .com if they don't already have it in stock.

They certainly will order it for you.

We have a listener.

Yes, Dez.

I'm sorry. Go ahead.

Oh, yes, definitely. Definitely. Yes.

Amen, and we have a question for you.

Dr. Ford from BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

BB wants to know is there anything specific in the eschatology of the

Seventh -day Adventist Church that you believe was more fertile ground

for the Branch Davidian understanding of the end times to come to

existence.

Well,

well,

thank you

BB and

keep

spreading the

word here

in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and beyond we have.

Let's see.

We have another listener John and Bangor, Maine.

And John and Bangor, Maine says.

Do you not believe that this horrific event in America's history is

a lesson to all those in government and also for the voting

citizens in the public.

About.

The abuse of government power.

Regardless of how much we may rightly condemn David Koresh and the Branch Davidians

This seems clearly to be an outlandish abuse of authority by the American government

Which led to such horrific results where children were murdered

And the very children who perished were ones that were claimed to be the reason For

the siege in order to protect them.

If you could start Ken with your response to that.

Yeah, that's

a John

is

asking first of

all

the criminal.

Think

sometimes Christian

reasons why a

malevolent.

Christians often have an eschatological perspective of a one -world government.

The Founding Fathers.

The Founding Fathers were.

Or you could

mean

they did.

The government did.

Drive a tank

into the

building so.

Either either I mean the theories could go either direction, but we have to go to a break and we'll get Dez.

We'll get your response to that same question if you would like to

Formulate an answer during the break.

We have to go to our longer than normal break.

Grace life radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us a 12 -minute break between our two major

segments.

So please be patient.

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return to our guests.

Dr. Desmond Ford and Ken samples on the theme David Koresh the Branch Davidians and the Waco,

Texas disaster 25 years after the siege.

We just have a couple of other very important announcements to make first of all this weekend

God willing I will be at the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology.

It is no longer held in Philadelphia.

It's just affectionately named that in tribute to the late. Dr James Montgomery Boyce who for many

years had the the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology at 10th Presbyterian Church in

Philadelphia.

He is with the Lord for eternity now.

So they affectionately call the conference that even though it is now held in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania at Proclamation

Presbyterian Church.

That is this weekend the 27th through the 29th of April the theme is the

spirit of the age and the age of the spirit and Speakers include my dear friend.

Dr. Conrad and Bayway pastor of Kibwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa

Jonathan master David Murray Scott Oliphant and more.

If you'd like to register go to Alliance net org Alliance net org click on events

and then click on Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology the spirit of the age and the age of the spirit, please tell

the alliance of confessing evangelicals that you heard about this event from Chris Arns and on Iron Sherpins Iron Radio.

Then next month at the end of next month May 29th through the 31st the banner of truth

is having their 2018 ministers conference on the theme ministers of Christ.

The speakers include Alistair Begg Johnny Gibson Mark Johnston Al Mohler of Southern

Baptist Theological Seminary David Strain and Craig Troxell.

Most of those guests with the exception of two have been on this program as guests on

Iron Sherpins Iron Radio and if you would like to register for that event go to banner of truth org.

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That's also the email address to send in a question to our guests Dr. Desmond Ford and Ken

samples on our discussion David Koresh the Branch Davidians and the Waco, Texas disaster 25

years After the siege, it's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Dr. Ford whenever I ask somebody either from the other side of the pond or the other side of the world

as is your case.

No, Australia.

I always get a little nervous asking political questions because I have seen that Brethren in

Christ can be lockstep in agreement on theology but when it comes to politics, sometimes there is a

wider chasm of difference that separates us than we might expect and It

seems to me that very often when I ask listeners from overseas questions that

involve the government and politics they tend to be much more trusting

of Their governments.

I happen to be one who agrees with sir John Dahlberg Acton also known as Lord Acton

the 19th century Brilliant mind who said who wrote

in a remark in a letter to an Anglican bishop power tends to corrupt an Absolute power

corrupts.

Absolutely.

And then I think that we have to have a healthy distrust or

Reluctance to believe and follow blindly.

The.

Governments that are over us but at the same time the Bible Commands us that we have to be subservient to the

government as long as the government that God has ordained over us isn't compelling us to sin.

But what was what is your response to it?

John and Bangor, Maine had to say About a lesson to be learned by governments in the way that this

situation was handled in Waco, Texas.

Yes,

certainly

they

were

and

we

have.

RJ and White Plains, New York.

Who wants to know?

Does the cult the branch Davidians actually still exist today.

And we'll have both of you comment on that and we'll start with you.

Can.

Yeah,

that's a

good

question by

RJ

and I don't know that.

Well des.

Is that true?

What and.

Perhaps you both can answer this.

Are there people today that you know of.

Of course there could be people that believe anything.

But are there people worthy of note that believe

Still the claims of David Koresh and perhaps Ken.

Let me start with you.

What were the claims?

What was he literally claiming to be Jesus Christ in the flesh?

Yes,

we're in

Ellen White.

He did develop

ideas Ferdinand

Ellen White in an Adventist context later.

He claimed to be the Lamb of the Book of Revelation Messiah

and even Christ.

And I think that

what's missing

in the Context of whether the government did or

did not overstep

holding a lot of the car.

Yeah, I see him as a cult leader.

I see him in the claims that he made and you know.

Whether there are.

I know that you said that the branch Davidians have dissolved to your knowledge as an official group but do you know of people

who have been known to make public statements that they still believe he was The Christ and so

on that they agreed with his claims, even though he perished in the flames of that compound.

I.

Do know that there are some people who survived the fire or

believe,

you

know to a

significant

Renounced state have denied anybody

other than followers.

And again, I I would point out that when you're in a cult

Element and so some of these people were deeply damaged by what they experienced and

when they say High -regard even still I think that

reflects both a theological and a psychological damaging.

And dr. Ford, I don't know if you have anything to add to that.

But there is a question from a listener specifically for you that is related to this.

Yeah, we

do have

a listener.

Let's see here.

We have Harrison and Mechanics Berg, Pennsylvania.

Who says dr. Ford?

I know that you must have had.

Some friends that were somehow personally connected to this cult because of the fact that it had its

roots in Seventh -day Adventism.

Where you spent most of your life.

Do you know of anybody who because of the rise and fall of this cult has totally

abandoned?

Christianity or even belief in God altogether.

Okay.

We're gonna go to our final break right now, I'd rather do it right now than Interrupting either of you

in mid -sentence.

It's gonna be a very brief break and if anybody wants to join us on the air I would do it very soon because

we are rapidly running out of time as we always seem to To do on this program, especially when the guests are as

fascinating as the two that we have on today.

So send us an email to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

That's CH RIS Arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with dr Desmond Ford and Ken samples with more of our discussion on David Koresh and

the branch Davidians and the Waco disaster 25 years after the siege.

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We are back now with our discussion with dr. Desmond Ford and also Ken samples on

The Branch Davidians and the Waco, Texas disaster.

This this month marks the 25th anniversary of this disaster and

as we said earlier Only nine survived the fire

on April 19th, which was the final day of the siege and 76

Branch Davidians perished.

So, this is quite a horrific tragedy.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris ar n ze n at gmail .com.

We have I know I'll have.

Can you start with an answer and then if Desmond wants to chime in?

We have Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York.

Who asks were the allegations that actually Started the siege by our

government to begin with ever proven.

Primarily the allegations that there was pedophilia and child rape going on in the cult.

Yeah, a very controversial Topic.

The answer is clearly none of this was ever

Proven and

adjudicated for

lives.

I think that's

pretty clear.

Young women under age proven in court.

And dr. Ford, do you have anything to add?

Yes, Chris the biggest.

Gospel.

That we need not remain a single moment Longer and

become as beggars.

We'll go away as princes.

But if we come as princes to Christ we go away as a beggar an empty hand

a naked hand.

He says he that cometh to me all in no way the ungodly.

Only God has given away Only heaven

gospel.

Amen, and we

have a listener.

Who has a question specifically for Ken.

Samples, but of course, dr. Ford can also respond.

We have.

Let's see here.

We have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York who says Ken can

you please give us some warning signs?

That all should take heed to in regard to whether or not the church or religion.

They

belong

to is

indeed a

cult.

Yeah, that's a

great one.

Other

than

people are looking

with God.

Largely in the

comp

there was a

lot

of

work

theological

also

Eschatological

lessons.

Cool context.

The

second

coming is

think there

are

many lessons.

Dr. Ford.

Do you have anything to add?

And we have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania who wants to know Dr. Ford.

I hope I didn't miss this earlier because I am joining the program later.

But I was wondering if you know of anybody who is a survivor of this tragedy that actually came to a

genuine saving knowledge Of the true Christ of Scripture and repented of these false beliefs

that they previously held with the Branch Davidians.

Oh, I Could be wrong, but I think what our listener was meaning by his question

was that sometimes God uses Horrifying experiences like sparing us or

rescuing us from death or something to rattle us to to abandon

False beliefs and to turn to the true and living Christ in the true gospel because he did have

actually in his question Built in there that the repentance of the false beliefs of

the Branch Davidians.

So I think that what he was meaning is, you know of anybody who survived Who was rattled

enough and frightened enough that they turned to the Living God the true Living God for mercy as a result of being

spared death.

We have an anonymous listener who says Dr. Ford, is there

anything inherent within Seventh -day Adventism, especially their

exalting Ellen G White to a prophetess that would still Leave it

as fertile ground for a future David Koresh to rise up after all if you believe in

modern -day extra -biblical prophets and prophetesses.

Who are we to automatically rule them out as being honest?

Now what to your knowledge is the position of these Replacements as you call

them for Ellen White.

What is there I mean are any of them being tolerated in the Seventh -day Adventist denomination.

You know, are they members of churches?

I'm sorry.

Oh, so they've all been dismissed or excommunicated and

in fact if you could Ken if you could also comment on the danger of modern -day

prophets and.

Prophetesses

or so -called.

I see

Adventist

pretty diverse.

There are evangelical Adventist.

Des Ford was really the champion of what I would call Evangelical Adventism.

I don't know that anybody has the kind of

Adventist.

They're all think developments of

the 19th century.

Yeah, there are those that even there are those that even call.

Des a heretic and they they call his theology.

Ford ism.

We have another anonymous listener who says I

Have friends who are Reform Seventh -day Adventists and I have heard that they

are the most cultic of all.

Is this true.

And We could start with dr. Ford.

Is.

Anything though.

Is there anything uniquely Aberrant about their gospel from what I understand.

They are and I could be wrong.

Yeah, there are more there.

They are more than anyone.

Affirming a view of Ellen G white as a prophetess and her writings is on par with the scripture,

which would mean also Yeah, a false gospel that involves the investigative

judgment.

We

have a

question for Ken samples that obviously dr. Ford can also respond afterward.

We have let's see here.

Where was that?

We have Cynthia in Perry County, Pennsylvania

who says isn't the Continuationist or non

-cessationist understanding of biblical revelation or God -breathed

revelation at heart here when people Believe that

the Word of God is not sufficient and that he is still Revealing things that were not

recorded in Scripture to individuals and therefore There is a very

subjective Situation rather than objective whether or not a person is

really speaking from God or from his own imagination or or Actual

attempts at deceiving people.

Yeah, Cynthia's raised.

I think then they

do always

the concern that

people are going to teach things based upon their experience

and There has been a

About people who make prophetic claims and how those prophetic claims

Would be compared and contrasted with the authority of scripture.

How does your little shish go inviting you to tune in?

Sorry, that was a that was a malfunction there I.

Think we live at a time where we need a lot of good discernment.

We need lots of good instruction and certainly

there is Always concerned that people are going to exalt an individual

vision above scripture.

Dr. Ford.

Do you have anything to add?

Yes, Christ said we should not live by bread alone

clearly and repeatedly stated in Holy Scripture.

Amen.

And.

There are Pentecostals and charismatics.

And I try my best always not to broad brush them because they are very diverse.

But some will say That I believe God Communicates

through divine revelation today just as he did in the apostolic error.

Then the way that we judge whether it's true or false or is whether or not it

Contradicts scripture.

The problem that I have with that.

Is that you could?

You could say for instance that God has revealed to you That a

member of the church is supposed to marry another member of the church and someone who could say that that that it does.

Not.

Contradict any teaching in the Bible, but I still think that that is an equally dangerous

And heretical practice that can lead to all kinds of deception and falsehood.

Would you both agree with that?

Yes,

well

Ken

there

are people though that may even embarrass us and put us to shame in regarding their.

Morality their outward Righteousness and so on their

sobriety their chest their chasteness and so on Their

generosity their benevolence, but they could still be false preachers and false prophets.

Can't they?

Well, that's certainly the case.

I mean

there are

people by grace.

We are broken.

I do think.

While I am not

I do

think.

And any

time you have to have experiences.

They need to be seriously.

You know the word faith.

No, I

mentioned

earlier a solo

script or I believe

being at the root of a.

Denial of solo script or being at the root of the rise of cults.

And for those of our listeners who don't know what that means that watchword of the Reformation It's basically that

The scripture alone is our sole infallible authority for the church.

It doesn't mean that we don't glean wisdom from Godly men and women and their writings and

so on.

It just means that we only have one sole authority, but there the other thing that goes hand in

hand with solo script Torah is.

The.

Belief in the sufficiency of Scripture this longing that people have

as if they have Exhausted the knowledge that God's Word the Bible

provides.

They're looking for something fresh and new and novel and exciting that

somehow gels with current events and things that we see in the newspaper and the TV.

Isn't this really again one of the crucial areas.

The sufficiency of Scripture that we cannot drift from and when those that do drift from

them.

They are very often Starting to formulate and

found things that are cults.

And let's start with Des you could start with that answer and then Ken you can follow.

Yes.

Amen, and Ken anything to

say.

The dividing element within

orthodox

scripture is

the supreme authority I

think.

However within evangelicalism the challenge is how does one's religion

the authority of Scripture

those remain?

I think the hallmark of what it means to be a prophet

now.

I'd like you but like you both respond to this There are many people

and I think in fact Most if not all natural men those that are not regenerate

Look for excuses to reject Christ and his claims and reject the gospel where you reject the

Bible.

They'll bring up people like David Koresh and They will say you

see why should I believe in this Jesus or believe in in religion at all?

When you have all these kooks Like David Koresh and you have them on the TV that might not be as dangerous

as David Koresh, but they're robbing people of money with all kinds of false promises and

there's all kinds of false teachers false prophets false prophetesses around.

Why should I?

Believe in what you have to say about Jesus when you could just be another cook.

How do you respond to that?

We'll start with you Ken.

Yeah, it's a it's a good question.

It's raised often.

Context is certainly Christians can give non -believers.

But I think it's a couple times in our discussion that abuse

doesn't rule out properly because there are people who?

Either intention engage in inappropriate and even

Wonderful, and I like what Des alluded to earlier

things like Hatha and being

anti -slavery.

Historic Christians have led the way in Recognizing the value and the dignity of human

people who are made in the image of God and I would also say that in the 20th Century we

had totalitarianism Which was anti God.

Who've murdered?

Many millions of more people than any Religious cult could do so.

Everybody has to bring their worldview to bear and secularism Has a lot of blood

on its hands, but I want to underscore real responsibility.

That's only going to hurt the car.

And dr. Ford any comments on that.

Amen well, I want you each to for a minute Summarize what you most want

etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before we go off the air.

And dr Ford if you could begin and then we'll close with you Ken

Praise God and Ken samples if you could conclude with a minute of summary.

Yeah, I think that.

Very much that there are counterfeit

Gospels.

I am the true gospel.

It doesn't rule out that Christ is Lord and Savior.

He's terrible experiences of

Co learning about what we

push Janity.

And I think as well the recognition of having a bold witness

For the Lord Jesus Christ and and that means taking doctrine

taking on our desire to

Good lessons for the future.

Well, I know I know Ken that the website for reasons to

believe Is reasons org reasons org.

Do you have anything further to add to that to contact information?

Yes, you can go on reasons org lots of be on

Apologetics we focus a lot on science faith issues.

On amazon .com I co -authored

and That will

and as I know that you work with Good News Unlimited and their website is good news.

And then the abbreviation of unlimited unltd .org.

Good news unltd .org.

Do you have any other contact information that you cater share?

Well, well,

I want

to thank you both for being on this program.

Perhaps even and not not to in any way diminish my excitement about you being on

Ken.

But the Dez for waking up so early.

You must have woken up about 4 in the morning to be on the show since you're in Australia.

I want to thank you both for being on the program.

I look forward to you both returning.

I want to thank everybody who listened especially those who wrote in questions.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior

Than you are a sinner. Amen.