February 23, 2018 Show with Brad Gsell on “Speaking the Truth in Love: The Legacy of Billy Graham & The Accommodation of Truth to Error in the Evangelical Church”

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Just two days after the death of Billy Graham, this is a program that I was not looking forward to conducting, and it's not because I wasn't looking forward to having another conversation with a former guest of mine,

Brad K. Zell, but it's because it's a very uncomfortable thing to criticize a man that is a great hero to many across the globe, a man who in many regards lives an exemplary life, a man whose record on many issues may be a lot more spotless than my own, a man who is in an age of celebrity where there is rarely a celebrity that you can find that hasn't been caught up in a scandal, whether sexual or financial or otherwise.

And Billy Graham was a man who seems to have a spotless record, on a human level that is, a human perspective in regard to those things.

But because of the fact that there are very, very serious and theologically dangerous and theologically heretical things that Mr.

Graham has said and even placed into policy with the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association in regard to the

Crusades and so on, I believe that this program is a necessary one, especially since you are probably not going to hear it anywhere in the media with the exception of some isolated fundamentalist broadcasts or internet commentary and perhaps some of those of my own background in the conservative reform and Calvinistic circles that I have fellowship with.

And not all of that, I think, is going to be helpful. I think that there is going to be unnecessarily, and unfortunately, some who go way overboard in their condemnation of Mr.

Graham and perhaps even, whether consciously or unconsciously, enter into the realm of slander and unnecessary mockery and so on.

And we want to, first of all, have you all pray that the

Graham family, in this season of mourning, are brought peace that only can come from the

Holy Spirit, that they are brought closer to the Lord as a result of this, and that the

Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, as they are at a crossroads now, that they are guided by God and his

Word into the decisions they make and to the directions they take in the 21st century.

But today we have to talk about Billy Graham. Brad K. Zell, who is an elder at the

Bible Presbyterian Church of Charlotte, North Carolina. He is the president of the International Council of Christian Churches, president of the

Independent Board for Presbyterian Foreign Missions, editor of Redeeming the Time quarterly magazine.

He's a member of the executive committee of the American Council of Christian Churches and stated clerk of Faith Presbytery, Bible Presbyterian Church.

Today we are going to be discussing, specifically, a booklet that he wrote 20 years ago but is probably more necessary to be read today than it ever was before,

The Legacy of Billy Graham, The Accommodation of Truth to Error in the Evangelical Church.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio after a long absence, Brad K.

Zell. It's good to be with you, Chris. And Brad, if you could, just give us a little bit of an explanation as to your background.

Tell us something about the Bible Presbyterian Church of Charlotte, North Carolina. And if I'm not mistaken,

I think that is the very congregation where Billy Graham was raised? Am I wrong on that? He was raised in the

Bible Presbyterian Church. Our present congregation wasn't started until 1966, but many of the people that knew him were in our church, yes.

So tell us something about, specifically, the Bible Presbyterian Church, what sets it apart from other churches and even

Bible Presbyterian churches? Well, the Bible Presbyterian Church was started in 1938, 37 and 38, and it had ministers who had left the

Presbyterian Church USA due to the apostasy in that denomination where men no longer believed in the doctrines of Scripture.

And the Bible Presbyterian Church believed that only a faith that was rooted and founded in the

Word of God and the historic Christian faith could be a true

Christian church. And we are, as Chris mentioned, with being reformed.

We are a reform group. We hold to the Westminster Confession of Faith and catechisms as our system of doctrine.

And it's interesting, I'm sure that a lot of folks, especially from more conservative backgrounds and perhaps even especially from fundamentalist backgrounds, when they read the name of some of these organizations like the

International Council of Christian Churches or the American Council of Christian Churches, they may have a knee -jerk reaction and incorrectly connect those organizations with the very liberal and in fact even apostate organizations that have similar sounding names.

Perhaps you could explain in more detail so we can alleviate that apprehension and anxiety. Tell our listeners about the

International Council of Christian Churches and also the American Council of Christian Churches. Yes, the

American Council of Christian Churches was started in 1941 with two denominations, the

Bible Presbyterians and the Bible Protestant Church, and very quickly a number of Methodist and Baptist churches around the

United States joined together in a witness for the historic

Christian faith. And it was in opposition to the Federal Council of Churches, which as Chris mentioned was very liberal and began in 1908.

And then in 1951, the Federal Council became the

National Council of the Churches of Christ in America, which exists today. And most of your mainline denominations are part of the

National Council of Churches. The International Council was started in 1948 in Amsterdam, where the

Pilgrim Fathers had worshipped in the historic church where they had worshipped, and it has continued on since that time with Bible -believing

Christians from all around the world, and I just have returned from Peru and Chile and had blessed fellowship with a number of Baptist and Presbyterian and Methodist churches that stand for the

Word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. And the verse that I just quoted from Revelation 1 -9 is the theme verse of the

International Council. Yes, I happen to know that a local congregation here in Carlisle, Faith Chapel, recently had some of their leaders attend an event where you were present, something involving the

Bible -Presbyterian church denomination, even though this church that I'm speaking of is not in that denomination. Yes, we were together in Greenville, South Carolina at the annual convention of the

American Council of Christian Churches. Great. Well, I am going to right away, just because I know that especially some folks who do not know the information that we are going to be providing, they may be already boiling over with anger and resentment, might mentally tune out to things that we are going to say today because they cherish

Billy Graham as a great hero of the faith, a man who has become known as America's president, a man who has even been described as the conscience of America.

And I'm going to play a clip of an interview that Robert Shuler had with Billy Graham in the

Crystal Cathedral, and even though this occurred many years ago, to this day when

I play this for people, they are stunned. It's amazing how people can cherish a man as deeply as they cherish

Billy Graham and be ignorant of a lot of these things because these were not secretive things.

These were very publicly declared and proclaimed things on nearly every interview that he had, or at least as early as the eighties.

But I'm going to play this for you without further ado, and then after I play this, I do want to begin a discussion of Graham, going back to the days before there was any known departure from biblical faithfulness or orthodoxy, and I do want to start the program with as much positive things that we can say, not that we will exhaust a list of great things to say about Billy Graham in this program, but what

I mean is, say as many things as time will allow us to say before we get to the heart of our discussion.

But here is Robert Shuler having a discussion with Billy Graham in the

Crystal Cathedral. Tell me, what do you think is the future of Christianity? I think everybody that loves

Christ or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the body of Christ.

And that's what God is doing today. He's calling people out of the world for his name, whether they come from the

Muslim world or the Buddhist world or the Christian world or the non -believing world, they are members of the body of Christ because they've been called by God.

They may not even know the name of Jesus, but they know in their heart that they need something that they don't have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think that they are saved, and they're going to be with us in heaven.

This is fantastic, I'm so thrilled to hear you say that. There's a wideness in God's mercy.

There is. There definitely is. Well, before we go on, as I said, to discuss some of the positive things about Billy Graham's legacy and his life, we have to just comment on that.

It may have gone over people's heads if they weren't listening carefully, because of course

God is calling people from the Muslims and the

Hindus and the Buddhists and the atheists to himself, but he is calling them out of those religions and those false belief systems.

He is regenerating them and converting them and giving them the gift of faith.

They are conscious that they are falling in love with and following Christ.

This is not something that they are oblivious to while they either worship the

Muslim understanding of Allah, or the multitudes of gods worshipped by Hindus, or the pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps that the atheists might be involved in and who might even be doing good charitable deeds but reject the existence of God, because Mr.

Graham seemed to include those of the unbelieving category. What he has said there is that these people will remain in these false religions and ideologies and will be in heaven.

Am I correct in that assessment? Yes, you are, and I believe it contradicts a number of scriptures.

Acts 4 .12 says, neither is there salvation in any other, for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

The whole way through, you can turn to Romans 10 .17, faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

It isn't just by some nebulous belief, but it is a belief in Jesus Christ for our salvation, in which

God gives us the salvation, but it is through Jesus Christ and him alone.

Now, I don't know if Mr. Graham ever became friendly with some of the primitive

Baptists, I don't know how familiar you are with them, and I have to be very careful not to broad brush because they are not all identical, but there is a belief that is common amongst primitive

Baptists that is very hyper -Calvinistic. You and I are Calvinists, but we are historically accurate and biblically faithful Calvinists.

There are primitive Baptists who believe that there are men, women, and children among God's elect who will never, on this earth, come to faith in Christ.

They so far separate the necessity of faith or faith's involvement in one's regeneration that they come to the heretical conclusions that faith is not an essential for one to enter into heaven.

And I have no idea if Billy Graham got this concept from them, but I always wondered that because it seems similar.

Do you have any idea how this understanding in his mind developed? Because he seems to be clear, and this is commonly called pluralism, that nobody is saved by false gods.

He believed, it seems from everything he has said, that Jesus Christ is the only

Savior, and that Jesus Christ is necessary, and that his death on the cross is necessary, and his resurrection is necessary, and his sinless life, his perfect obedience to the

Father, and all these things are necessary. But they are not necessary for us to know them and believe them.

If you could comment on what I said. Well, I believe the scriptures teach us what we often call the

Ordo Salutis, the order of salvation. Yes. And the whole principle of the

Protestant Reformation was that the just shall live by faith, and we believe we're saved by faith alone, through grace alone, and by Christ alone, and to the glory of God alone.

And this idea, it's a general sinful human thing to want to broaden out and to not think that others of other religions can be saved.

Graham does say that none can be saved apart from Christ, which is a good statement, but he seems to be much less clear on what that means, and he also says, although I think his theology probably doesn't teach us that salvation is

God saves us, it's not we that do it, but yet I think sometimes his

Arminianism colors things and causes some of these wrong interpretations.

So although he was raised in the Bible Presbyterian Church, he, from what you know, was not a

Calvinist, at least in his adult ministry in any way, even in the early days? Right.

He, I believe, was raised in his very young years in the

Associate Reform Presbyterian Church, which is a Reform body, and then the

Bible Presbyterian Church of Charlotte began in 1939 when the pastor of the 10th

Avenue Presbyterian Church in Charlotte walked out with most of the congregation, and Billy Graham's father became an elder of that congregation.

But Graham, very shortly after that, became a

Southern Baptist, I believe. About what age was he when he became a Southern Baptist?

I guess he would have been in his 20s. He was born in 1918, and I think it was around 1941 or something, somewhere in that area that he changed from being a

Presbyterian to a Southern Baptist. And of course, Southern Baptists are a mixed group.

They began exclusively and entirely as a Calvinistic denomination, but today the

Calvinists are a minority, but they do exist. There are Calvinists who are Southern Baptists, but today it seems the majority are

Arminian, although they most likely would not call themselves that. Right, right, correct.

But Billy Graham is known to have been a fiery, bold, powerful preacher of the gospel in his early years.

I even saw a clip that I think it was Laura Ingram played on Fox News after they made the announcements of Billy Graham's death.

They played a clip of a sermon that I'm actually surprised they played because of its political incorrectness.

He actually said that unless you have an encounter with Jesus Christ, your

Lord, God, and Savior, and I'm paraphrasing, but these elements were involved in his statement, unless you have an encounter and have faith in the

Lord Jesus Christ, your religion means nothing. And that seems to be 180 degrees different from what he began to preach later on in his life.

But if you could, before we go into the departure from biblical orthodoxy that sadly was a hallmark of his legacy, if you could tell us some more about the good, positive things that you could say about Billy Graham.

It seems that he was, for quite a while, a very faithful preacher. I mean, he even had a stance against Catholicism in his early days, even in the 60s, that I don't even take as strong as a stance that he did in this regard.

He did not want John F. Kennedy to run for president because he was a

Roman Catholic. Now as much as I am opposed to Roman Catholic theology and think that it is a false church and a false gospel,

I don't even think that I would deny a vote to a political candidate because he was

Catholic. But he had some very sound views and very controversial views that were courageous in the sense that he seemed fearless about public criticism at one point in his life in those regards.

Yes. I think the, I might just say before I comment on that, that the statements that we've just been discussing where he spoke on Robert Shuler's show and he reiterated those same views in other places, that those were very late in his life and it was pretty puzzling that he came out with those views.

But yep, Billy Graham, he came out in the 40s in Youth for Christ and no one can deny that he had many gifts, clear, straightforward preaching and the ability to resonate with the people's hearts and then he began his long influence with the presidents beginning with Harry Truman who at first wasn't too thrilled with Graham but then came to respect him and then every president since then

Graham has had a special relationship with. As far as his beliefs, all through the 40s he described himself as a fundamentalist and fellowshiped with fundamentalists.

It wasn't until the mid to late 1950s that Graham turned away from that and decided that he wanted modernists and Catholics and others to join in his crusades.

I'm the president of the Independent Board for Presbyterian Foreign Missions and the vice president of the

Independent Board in those days was New York attorney James E.

Bennett and Bennett and Graham were close friends and in fact

Billy Graham mentions Bennett in his book

Just as I Am, his autobiography and Bennett had been an enthusiastic supporter up until the

New York crusade in I believe 1957 perhaps and that's when

Graham really started to take in people that didn't believe the

Bible and at that point although they were close friends, Bennett refused to work any longer with Graham and then a number of fundamentalists put together a book at that time called

A Ministry of Disobedience and a number of prominent Presbyterian, Baptist, Methodist leaders who were fond of Graham but yet they spoke out against his new procedures.

And as I reiterated in the beginning of the program,

Mr. Graham, although he reached the level of being a global celebrity, he seemed, as far as we could tell what his heart and mind believed, he seemed to be an extraordinarily humble man in spite of this level of celebrity and unless you know something that I don't know, he did maintain a sexually pure life.

In fact, he had that rule that in fact many have mocked our vice president for, to never be seen anywhere in a room, not in a restaurant or anywhere, alone with a woman.

He seemed to have a stellar reputation with his marital faithfulness.

I don't know of any financial scandal that he was involved in and things like that. I mean there are a lot of things that even the best of Christians might be weakened by the fame and fortune that he had.

And they might be weakened and have been far less stellar examples of integrity and morality than he was.

I mean we do have to give him some credit in regard to some of these amazing things, especially one who lives to 99 years old.

Yes, absolutely. And I in no way am out to tear

Billy Graham down, that's of no purpose in my life whatsoever. Certainly all those things that you mentioned are true and we can all admire them.

I live here in Charlotte, about five miles from where Billy Graham was born and raised and about that far from where his funeral will be next

Friday. And he's a favored son here in Charlotte and we often get stories in our papers that aren't in other papers just because of his close association here.

And even one of our main highways here in Charlotte is the Billy Graham Parkway.

And so it would only be mean spirited to not extol those wonderful things which are so rare in our day.

I mentioned that we had several members in our church here in Charlotte who are now with the

Lord but they were personal friends of the Graham family and knew his brother

Melvin and sister Catherine and Jean. I saw some of the birthday cards that the

Graham family had sent some of our members and they were close, although the members in our church had taken a stand against the ecumenical evangelism and all the ones that I knew, they all spoke well of the whole

Graham family. And so I just wish that we had more ministers in our day who would hold those standards.

We saw the scandals with PTL and Jimmy Swigert and some of those and as far as I know,

Billy Graham led an exemplary life in accordance with what the

Bible teaches. We have to go to our first break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question about Billy Graham, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away, God willing, we will be right back with Brad Zell and more of the legacy of Billy Graham, the accommodation of truth to error in the evangelical church.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arns. And if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours, with a little less than 90 minutes to go, is

Brad K. Zell, elder at the Bible Presbyterian Church of Charlotte, North Carolina, president of the

International Council of Christian Churches, president of the Independent Board of Presbyterian Foreign Missions, editor of Redeeming the

Time quarterly magazine, member of the executive committee of the American Council of Christian Churches, and stated clerk of Faith Presbytery Bible Presbyterian Church.

We are discussing the legacy of Billy Graham, the accommodation of truth to error in the evangelical church, which is also the title of a booklet written by Brad over 20 years ago that has more importance today,

I believe, than when he first wrote it. And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Well, before we take any listener questions, why don't you tell us more about something that you hinted at earlier in regard to a conscious decision by Billy Graham to, when he was conducting his crusade ministries, he made that decision when he was at a crossroads on which direction to take, instead of involving the fundamentalist churches that would have been his circle of fellowship prior to the mid -fifties, going back to the earliest days of his ministry, and decided in favor of involvement with Roman Catholics and liberal

Protestants. If you could tell us about that pivotal occurrence in history, in Billy Graham's legacy.

I believe the main reason that he went that way was not for personal influence and growth and so forth.

I attribute no ill motives, but he believed that the gospel of Christ needed to go out and he didn't want to do anything that would limit or hinder it, so he figured that if he included all the different churches, men that didn't believe the bible, if they were willing to be on his platform, he was willing to have them, and that that would promote the gospel.

He made the famous statement that I will go anywhere under any sponsorship to be able to preach the gospel of Christ.

The problem that I have with that, and part of it would reflect our reformed understanding of scripture, but it's been said that God's work must be done in God's way in order to receive

God's blessing. The Lord is not sitting on the sidelines, dependent upon us to make the gospel known, but he has commanded us to go into all the world and preach the gospel.

But it must be done according to his way, and God will bring the results.

We are not responsible for the results. And if you have that understanding, then you have a whole different idea and philosophy of Christian ministry.

Yeah, so I guess I'm assuming what you're saying is that instead of preaching to the choir by having the involvement of people that were like -minded with him, at least like -minded with his ideology and theology prior to the mid -50s, he thought that it would be best to use his friendships and associations as platforms to evangelize the very ones that he was associating with.

But as I have said to people even today, or I can remember when

Billy Graham, back in the 1990s

I guess it was, when he came to New York for a crusade, when

I told people of my strong disapproval of his having Roman Catholics and liberal

Protestants and even non -Christian rabbis, I'm not talking about Messianic Jews here, we're talking about those rabbis that reject

Christ as Messiah, to have them involved on the podium, on the platform, was something that was absolutely unacceptable and dangerous and even heretical.

And people would say, in response Christians would say, but what better way to draw in those people to those crusades than to have those kinds of people associated with him on the platform?

And my answer has been to them, why would they want to leave the religions, the false religions that they're in, if they see representatives, key figures who represent their false religions up there on the platform, seemingly having an equal voice of truth with Mr.

Graham? It makes no sense. Am I confusing in my language here? Am I babbling? No, that's correct.

And I've seen through the years that just about every error that you find in the

Church or in false teaching, that human reasoning is at the basis of it, but this is fair, or this, if you don't just look to the

Word of God for the way that we should live, our Westminster Confession says that the scriptures teach us what we are to believe concerning God and what duty

God requires of man, and we should be satisfied with that. Even when it comes to Calvinism, most of the arguments

I hear, well, that's not fair, or that's this, or that's that, but it always goes back to what we, in our fallen human reasoning, think is fair, and I think some of that came into play with having these men on the platform.

Well, there's more opportunity for the Gospel to be heard, and you have

Bishop so -and -so, well, then all the Catholics from his area will come out to the

Crusades, and we'll have much bigger audience, and so forth. But is that what

God commands us to do, is where we always must fall back? Now, there are two biblical texts that appear to be in tension with one another.

One would be a text that closer resembles something to commend

Billy Graham for, and that text is 1 Timothy chapter 3, verse 7, speaking about elders, that they must be well thought of by those outside the faith, so that they may not fall into disgrace and be caught by the devil's trap.

But then you have the text that seems to be in tension with that, Luke chapter 6, verse 26, woe to you when all men speak well of you, for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way.

I'm not saying that the Bible contradicts itself, I'm just saying that on the surface, those two texts seem to be at least in tension with one another, and Billy Graham seems to have been exemplary on one side of that equation, but has miserably failed on the other side.

Am I correct in that assessment? I believe so, and as you say, those verses aren't in tension.

If I, as an elder, am known for getting drunk and not living a sober life and things like that, that brings a disgrace to not only myself, but to the church, and it can be a stumbling block to those who view it.

However, when we look at the scriptures, the prophets of God were seldom popular.

Jesus Christ was not popular. They crucified him.

The apostle Paul went through all kinds of tribulation and jail and everything.

He lived an exemplary Christian life, as he should, but yet the world hates true

Christians, and in the world you shall have tribulation, but then the

Bible tells us to rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven.

Well, before we continue, I want to take another, or should I say take our first listener question.

We have Joe in Slovenia. Dear Brother Chris, thank you so much for having the conviction and courage to address the legacy of Billy Graham in an objectively balanced manner.

My question is about the all too common drift that we see in evangelical leaders. We all know that but for the grace of God, we could all easily do the same.

It is known that the pull is always to drift away from the pristine truth of God's word and fidelity to the gospel.

Biblical and church history is replete with leaders who ended poorly from the standpoint of doctrinal purity.

In our own day, we see many formerly dependable teachers and preachers who have or are now drifting into apostasy.

What are we to make of this? How does it happen that men of firm biblical faith drift away from the truth?

What is the cause and process? How should we help ourselves and others avoid this shipwreck?

Well, I'm glad that this question is being asked to a Calvinist like you are because some of our brethren outside of the

Reformed faith might answer that very differently. But if you could address that.

Well, I think there's many things to be seen, even those who are faithful Bible believers and Bible teachers.

We're all harmed by the fall. The fall of man has made us all desperately wicked and evil.

And it's only by the grace of God that we are what we are. And even when we speak against things that we see that are unscriptural, that's in no way building ourselves up as if we're perfect, because a true man of God is going to know his sinfulness and that he cannot rely upon himself and his trust must totally be upon the

Lord. In saying that, I think even as we get older, most of us when we were very young tend to be brash and straightforward.

And then some men, when they get quite old, tend to become too mellow,

I would say. We must always use the Word of God as our plumb line.

And all of us are going to start drifting. But we need that with the help of the

Spirit to follow the Word of God. And it'll always bring us back into conformity with what

God expects of us. And so we must be charitable on one hand.

The Bible certainly condemns those of a haughty spirit and prideful that think that they know everything.

But on the other hand, we must declare the Word of God and what it teaches and then let the chips fall where they will.

And I know that since you are a fellow believer in the doctrines of sovereign grace, that you would agree with me that if somebody actually enters into apostasy where they are denying the gospel or the

God of the gospel, that person was never regenerate to begin with. He may have believed he was and those around him may have believed he was.

But we don't believe that a true, regenerate individual can lose his salvation.

That is true. And if we're truly saved, we are truly saved for eternity.

And if not, and many times we fall into the trap of trying to determine who is saved and who's not.

And we believe these principles, but it's God that saves and only

God knows if a man is truly saved. Well, Jell in Slovenia, you have won a free copy of the booklet,

The Booklet, The Legacy of Billy Graham, The Accommodation of Truth to Error in the Evangelical Church.

Thank you for giving us an American address where your daughter lives in Georgia so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com,

can ship that out to you at no charge to you or to Iron Sharpens Iron. And we want to thank

Brad Zell for providing these free copies of The Legacy of Billy Graham to give away today.

And I might just interject, Chris, that the book is available in Spanish as well.

Oh, great. And where could they order that in Spanish and in English for those of our listeners who don't get the opportunity to win a copy today?

How could they order that booklet? OK, the address is Redeeming the

Time, which is taken from Ephesians 516, and the address is

Post Office Box 26281, Charlotte, North Carolina, 28221.

And if anybody wants to email me, I will get that information to you later. That's ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. And I'm assuming the website of Redeeming the

Time will also have some kind of contact information. I know that's RTTPublications .org.

Right. And they also can email us at RedeemingTheTime at BellSouth .net

and give the address. And then that might be the easiest way. RedeemingTheTime at BellSouth .net.

Correct. Well, thank you, Joe. And we also have let's see here.

We have Tony with an I, a lady, Tony, in Rock Hill, South Carolina.

She has a question for us today, and I have to enlarge the font on her email because it's very microscopic.

So here we are. Tony in Rock Hill, South Carolina, says,

Mr. Zell is an elder at the church I attend. So hi, Brad. Oh, wow. She travels all the way from South Carolina to Charlotte, huh?

Yes. Hello to Tony. There seems to be an awful lot of people concerned about excessive, unnecessary criticisms of Billy Graham.

I don't see that it is possible to overreact to a professing preacher in the Lord's Church who claims that there will be

Muslims and Hindus in heaven because the covering of Christ is not necessary, not to mention the long list of other heretical statements available from his own writings and interviews.

People continue to talk about Graham's seemingly faithful preaching, early profession of Christ's squeaky clean life and humble nature as proof that he was a true believer.

But I ask, could it not be the sheep's clothing the devil uses to win the trust of believers, thereby elevating his messengers to prominent and influential positions?

Once these men develop a stellar reputation and influence, they can then begin to lead the church into apostasy.

Well, one thing that I just have a, right now anyway, a word of correction that she, uh, that Tony has stated.

I don't think that Billy Graham would have denied that every lost person needs the covering of Christ.

I think where he was very heretically flawed was in his pluralism, where he believed that sinners need

Christ to be saved, but they don't need to know that if you follow what I'm saying. And if you want to respond to the other things that she said,

I mean, obviously you can overreact if you use viciousness and unnecessary ad hominem remarks and mockery and, and even exaggerations, which are in fact, if they are exaggerations, they're slanders.

You have to be careful that you're not, you're not, uh, reporting false things about him, even if you have a serious problem with his heretical teachings.

Well, uh, I believe that, um, part of the problem is that Graham often would speak where you could almost take that he was saying two different things.

Uh, in that interview with Robert, uh, Schuller, uh, he did say,

I think everybody that loves Christ or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, uh, they're members of the body of Christ.

So he's on one hand saying that Christ is necessary on the other hand, saying that you may not even be conscious that you're, uh, that you know,

Christ. Right. I remember him saying, uh, at one point he met a man in, in, in Asia.

I don't know if it was China, but I think it was China, an elderly man who believed in God, but he did not know and hadn't had never heard of the

Christian faith. And, uh, Billy Graham said, I believe that that man was in love with Jesus and didn't know it.

Yeah. And that, that's where, uh, the problem comes. Um, I believe, uh,

Charles Hodge in his systematic theology, um, made a statement that, that true religion never has existed and never can exist where the truth revealed in the

Bible or unknown, and I believe that's a very important, uh, the problem with Graham saying some of these things, uh, somebody who is a

Muslim or a Muslim or a Hindu or whatever may think that they can, uh, go to heaven while still holding to those things.

And I believe, uh, uh, historic, uh, Christian churches would have all pretty much unanimously have denied that.

In fact, why bother putting people's lives in jeopardy as they have been doing as Christians have been doing all the way back to the first century.

Why put a family, men, women, and children in the jeopardy of being executed as they were in the first century.

And as they are today in Muslim countries and other lands, if they could love

Jesus without making that a public, uh, publicly known fact, and even without leaving the religion that they were a part of, uh, and that's correct.

And I, I think that's the, uh, danger that Tony, uh, speaks about because that is a real error.

We tend in our day to be relative, uh, and, uh, even though we don't agree with something, we have a great leniency where in the history of the church, uh, you look at the, many of the great men and they, they held to what the

Bible taught and they, they would not give allowance for, uh, uh, a lot of things.

And we have to go to our midway break right now. It's a longer break than normal. It's about 12 minutes because Grace Life Radio 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us a 12 minute break between our two segments. So be patient and send in your emails with your questions to ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

ChrisArnson at gmail .com. Thank you, Tony in Rock Hill, South Carolina. You're also going to win a free copy of the book, uh, by our guest today, the

Legacy of Billy Graham. And, uh, we also want to plug the books that you have recommended.

I know of one of them, uh, Ian Murray's Evangelicalism Divided. Uh, and, uh,

Tony also recommends Dr. E .S. Williams, ecumenism, another gospel.

I'm not familiar with that one. Uh, another one that I could include that unfortunately is out of print, but you could still get used copies of it.

And I'm, I'm hoping somebody reprints it. Errol Hulls, who I've had the privilege of hearing preach, uh, on Long Island, New York, when he was visiting from Leeds, England, uh, to preach at the

Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, where I was saved and baptized. Uh, but, uh, he wrote a book called

Billy Graham, the pastor's dilemma. And that was coming from someone who actually worked, uh, as a volunteer for the

Billy Graham crusades, but then became convicted that that was a heretical approach that they were taking.

And in fact, I'm not a hundred percent certain, but I believe the late Errol Hulls may have even been led to Christ through a

Billy Graham crusade. And there are people who were saved as a result of God using Billy Graham as a, an instrument, but who later, even though they knew that God used him to bring them to salvation, they knew that they had to expose the dangerously heretical aspects of his ministry.

When they, when they became aware of them, uh, out of the, uh, the need to honor and obey

God and his word rather than men, but, uh, we're going to our midway break right now. Don't go away.

Uh, we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. I am

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I just have a couple of announcements before I return to Brad Zell. By the way, in case you're ever

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And before we return to that discussion on the legacy of Billy Graham, there's a couple of announcements.

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Now we are back with our guest, Brad Zell. And Brad, for those of you just tuning in, is an elder at the

Bible Presbyterian Church of Charlotte, North Carolina, and he's also the author of The Legacy of Billy Graham, The Accommodation of Truth to Error in the

Evangelical Church. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Before we go to any more of the listener questions, Brad, I think it's very important for our listeners to know the level of compromise that the

Billy Graham Evangelistic Association is involved in, in regard to the volunteer counselors, is what

I believe they are called, those who are waiting by the platform for the audience members who are responding to an altar call or an invitation.

The people that are waiting there to guide people in their minds in a prayer that will lead them to salvation, those people aren't necessarily even

Bible -believing Christians, are they? That is correct. And the crusade committees, as has been mentioned, are comprised of those in the

Catholic Church and even the Jewish synagogue, and so often the counselors come from the churches of those who are on the platform.

Yeah, and in fact, I can recall when Billy Graham came to the Nassau Coliseum on Long Island, my sister, who is a

Roman Catholic, wanted me to go with her to the crusade. So I agreed because I wanted to be able to tell her all the things that I was disagreeing with the

Billy Gray Crusade about. I wanted to obviously be right there with her so I could discuss these things with her.

And we all took a bus from a local church that was not the church where I was a member.

It was another church. We all took a bus to the Nassau Coliseum. And the pastor of that church was across the aisle.

And I said to him, isn't it true that if you are a counselor at the

Billy Graham Crusades, you are forbidden to refer a person to a

Bible -believing church? You are instructed to have them return to the church or religion that they came from.

And this pastor who was involved in the crusade agreed that that was true. And I said, well, don't you believe in the necessity of Christ and his gospel to be saved?

And he said, yes. And I said, well, why do you do this? And he said, well, I know a lot of people are getting saved here.

So I'm just taking advantage of the fact that a lot of people are getting saved. So it's basically a pragmatic understanding of if you could get people to come to Christ, in fact, that's even a question on whether they are coming to Christ when they're responding to an invitation there.

But this is the kind of pragmatism that people are involved in. But can you respond to what

I just said? Yes, and that is very true.

There's plenty of documentation. The when

Graham first started this slide back in the 50s, the San Francisco News said, anyone who makes a decision at our meetings is seen later and referred to a local clergyman,

Protestant, Catholic or Jewish. And there's just quite a few reports of this.

And Dr. Robert Ketchum of the General Association of Irregular Baptists had firsthand experience with that.

And it's a sad thing because you want a new

Christian to be fed the word of God. And another thing, too, is the

Great Commission, where we're told to go into all the world and preach the gospel as Mark 16 has it.

But if you look at other portions, Matthew 28, 19 and 20, the concept of discipleship, it's not just having somebody sign their name at the bottom of a prayer, but the whole ball of waxes that someone comes to Christ and then they're discipled.

Well, you can't disciple someone if you're sending them to receive poison. They have to be sent somewhere where the faithful minister is going to be proclaiming the word of God.

Well, yes. And one of the crucial areas of concern with Billy Graham himself and the

Evangelistic Association is that they don't think they are returning people to poison.

Billy Graham believes that the Catholic Church is a valid church. In fact, he described

Pope John Paul II as the greatest evangelist in the 20th century.

When John Paul II died, I can clearly remember Billy Graham being interviewed, and he was asked, do you believe that Pope John Paul II is in heaven?

And Billy Graham answered, I'm not sure I will be, but I'm sure he is.

And Franklin Graham gave the same accolades to Pope John Paul II. They obviously did not believe that the gospel that the reformers lived and died for, the gospel of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, according to the scriptures alone, for the glory of God alone.

They obviously did not believe that that was an extremely important gospel, in fact, the only gospel.

They couldn't if they knew anything about the Roman Catholic Church. Am I right? That is correct.

And we've seen quite a blurring of the lines on the doctrine of justification by faith alone, even in some conservative churches.

And this past summer, the World Conference of Reform Churches, which is mostly liberal, but they met in the city church in Wittenberg, where Martin Luther preached, and signed a joint declaration on justification with the

Roman Catholic Church, and the Methodists, and the

Lutherans. And they pretty well downplayed that there's any significant differences between them.

But if you look at the Catholic Catechism, some people say, well, since Vatican II, things have changed.

And of course, there are some changes, but the Catholic Catechism that was published in the late 90s, when

John Paul II was Pope, it has all the same teaching as the

Council of Trent, where the teaching of the Reformation was declared to be anathema, that you deserve hell if you believe that.

And so these people that talk out of both sides of their mouth, you have to look at the words that are there, what they mean, and there still is an unbridgeable difference between the whole

Gospel in Rome and true Protestantism. Yeah, the modern

Catechism of the Catholic Church, although it states faithfulness to the

Council of Trent, it obviously adds things in there that those assembled at the Council of Trent would have called out for the death of the person, saying that the

Muslims adore the same one true God as they do. And something that people must be aware of is that when you read things like that, these liberal things, those are not dogmatic declarations of the

Church of Rome. The Council of Trent was and is. The Council of Trent includes teachings that can never be overturned by the

Church of Rome. Right, exactly. I find these ecumenical groups, you read their statements, and great flowery words, and what appear to be wonderful sentiments, but yet they're full of loopholes, and they're purposely vague, so that the

Catholic can read that and mean one thing, and the more conservative Protestant over here can read it and mean something else.

And we have to condemn that, because the

Bible says, Thus saith the Lord, and it's clear in what is being stated.

In fact, I can recall vividly when Pope John Paul II became the

Pope, Billy Graham publicly boasted of his friendship with that Polish Cardinal, who became

Pope, and actually preached at that Polish Cardinal's church.

Cardinal Wojtyla, was his Polish name his actual original name,

Wojtyla? Yeah, I can't pronounce, I don't know the pronunciation, but you're referring to the one that became...

Pope John Paul II, yeah. Right, right. He preached at his Catholic church in Poland, the day that John Paul II became the

Pope. Billy Graham preached at his church, and they had a very deep friendship according to Graham, and it's one thing to have a friendship with somebody who has a false gospel, that is actually encouraged in the scriptures, that the only people that we're forbidden to have fellowship with and have meals with are those who profess to be

Christian, who are living scandalously. And to have a friendship with somebody when you are bringing them the gospel and urging them to repent, that's one thing.

But when you are having a friendship with somebody and declaring to the world that this person not only has a true gospel, but he is even superior in his faith to you, than you, you're getting into mind -boggling heresy.

I don't even understand how somebody who appears to have known what the gospel is for decades of his life could make those statements and be involved in those kinds of relationships.

That's correct, and the problem is when being charitable becomes more important than being faithful.

And I've never had much appreciation for someone who blusters and is quick to attack and condemn.

But on the other hand, I do have a value in those that have just graciously but firmly stood faithful to the word of God at all costs and have not been afraid to say so.

I think we've gotten, in the 20th and 21st century, a whole way away from the prophets.

Isaiah 58 -1 said, Cry aloud, Spare not, Lift up thy voice like a trumpet,

And show my people their transgression, And the house of Jacob their sins.

And Billy Graham said that his whole message was the love of God.

And that's John 3 -16 at the heart of the gospel, that God so loved the world.

But it didn't keep him from telling the religious leaders of his day,

Year of your father the devil. So did Billy Graham tell Bishop Pike that he was of his father the devil when he declared that he didn't believe in the trinity, and flippantly referred to it as the god by committee?

And Bishop Gerald Kennedy, the Methodist bishop, and G.

Bromley Oxnum, another Methodist bishop, who said that when he recited the

Apostles' Creed, he just did it as some kind of a war cry, that he didn't really mean it.

And so I can't imagine Isaiah, or Jeremiah, or one of the prophets, or even the apostle

Paul, or Jesus Christ, having such men on their platforms.

They would have rather said, Year of your father the devil. Yeah, Billy Graham declared accolades upon even men who denied the deity of Christ and his bodily resurrection.

Correct. And I'm going to ask you a question, and I'm going to let you think about the question during our last station break, which is a very brief one.

It's not like the other one. And then we'll also take some more listener questions. My question to you is the same question that has been posed to me going back in the 90s, when

I was sharing with people my disapproval of the Billy Graham Crusades, and my reasons for not wanting to attend them or support them, other than when

I went with my sister, because she requested that I go. She's a Roman Catholic sister, who still is a

Roman Catholic, who I love dearly. But when people would react in horror, when

Christians would react in horror, even conservative evangelicals would react in horror, when

I would say that I do not want any part of the Crusades, a number of them said to me,

How dare you? Who do you think you are? How many people have you led to Christ when

Billy Graham is possibly responsible for leading millions to Christ?

And you have the audacity to say things seriously critical of him, when you might not even be able to count on the fingers of two hands, how many people you led to Christ?

How do you react to that kind of charge from someone? And we'll have you answer that when we return from our final break.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Brad Zell and more of the legacy of Billy Graham when we return from these messages from our sponsors.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arns. And if you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes and the next 25 minutes to come, our guest has been and will continue to be

Brad K. Zell. We are discussing his book or his booklet, The Legacy of Billy Graham, The Accommodation of Truth to Error in the

Evangelical Church. If you want to join us on the air with a question before the program ends, please do so quickly.

We already have some people waiting in line. And if you want to get on the line with them, send your email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. And a listener,

B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, confirmed that I was correct on at least the last name, as best as I could pronounce it,

Cardinal Karol Józef Wojtyla. And of course, I could be butchering the

Polish pronunciation. He was the Polish cardinal who became Pope John Paul II. And I want you to answer now,

Brad, my question to you that was posed to me. Of course,

I'm fairly confident you have been used of God to lead a lot more people to Christ than I have, but it still comparatively rings true,

I think. When somebody says to you, how could you possibly in any way disparage the memory or the legacy or the honor and reputation of somebody who has been used of God to lead thousands of more people to Christ than you have, perhaps even millions, it seems like an arrogant thing to do.

But if you could comment on that. Right. Well, it's a natural human tendency, and even in some cases a correct thing, that often what might be called little people will take some kind of delight in attacking someone who is exceptionally successful.

The thing that the Bible requires, Paul tells us it is required in a steward that a man be found faithful.

And this reasoning of look how much he's done is, again, not a scriptural argument, but more of a human argument.

Now, I have to be very careful in how I say this to not come off being misunderstood, but the verse that I would like to read refers to that argument.

It's not applied directly to Billy Graham. We see in Matthew 7 where it says, many will say to me in that day,

Lord, Lord, we've done this, we've done that, we've done many wonderful works, and yet that wasn't acceptable to the

Lord. And so we see all through the scriptures where those that have done less are not rejected by the

Lord. And even in the days of Israel, you see the children of Israel with David with his ten thousands and Saul with his thousands, and the comparisons and the jealousies and so forth.

I do not care to take anything away from Billy Graham, and he's, in many ways, you'd call him way more gifted than I could ever dream of being, but that's no argument.

Faithfulness is the thing that the Lord looks for, and how often has the

Lord used someone who, humanly speaking, has had many, many limitations, but yet they did what the

Lord would have them to do. Yes, and we have, let's see, we have

Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania. He says, are you aware of any person that is being viewed by the

Billy Graham Evangelistic Association as a replacement for Billy Graham, or at least one who would be their key speaker for all kinds of public events and crusades?

I don't have any knowledge of that. Of course, Graham's son

Franklin is the president now, and he has spoken.

I'm not sure that the day of large crusades is here now as much as it was back in the last half of the 20th century, but it's always a difficult thing when a prominent leader leaves the scene, and so other than Franklin Graham, I'm not really aware.

Yes, there were certain things that I was impressed with when

I heard Franklin Graham speak on occasions, very boldly speaking out against the

Muslim terrorists and making it clear that this was a theological issue.

He was saying things that his father, I don't think, ever would have said in the latter part of the 20th century or dawn of the 21st century, but at the same time,

I don't think that, and please don't go overboard when you folks are hearing me say the apple hasn't fallen far from the tree, but he does seem to have carried with him,

Franklin that is, some of the other traits and beliefs and ideologies of his dad in regard to ecumenism.

As I said earlier, he was applauding John Paul II, the Pope, after his death as being one of the greatest evangelists that ever lived and so on as well.

There are certain things where he seems to be in lockstep with his father and in those very negative areas.

That's correct, and I think we need to be careful.

We held positions back in the 40s, 50s, and 60s, and now we may not be as quick to do that.

Well, if we're rooted in the Bible and not just in human emotion and getting caught up in the cause of the day, the

Bible is timeless, and so biblical principles never change.

Situations, circumstances do, but the principles remain the same, and so I've seen no reason to get rid of all the teachings that we've had on Roman Catholicism.

If you can show where something's been stated inaccurately, that's fine. Christians, I always tell people,

I'm not for political correctness, I'm just for correctness, and the Bible is a book of truth, and all of Christianity is based upon truth, and so if we deal with the truth, we can never go wrong.

Yeah, I cannot imagine that if the

Judaizers were in existence today, and in fact they are in different forms, but if the same group of people that Paul condemned in the

New Testament period, if they were here today, I have a lot of confidence, in a sad way, that Billy Graham would have included them amongst the people that he applauds and gives accolades to, and perhaps might have even had leaders in the

Judaizing movement up there on the platform with him. If you're going to have a Roman Catholic priest, or priests and bishops and cardinals, and even give public accolades to the

Pope, when they are far more guilty of violating the same principle that the

Judaizers did, I mean, all we know is that the Judaizers added circumcision to faith as a requirement for becoming a

Christian, and the Roman Catholic Church requires much more than that. But I can't help but think that Billy Graham would have viewed them as just another fine group of Christian folks.

Am I logically consistent here? I believe so, because the

Apostle Paul, you look at 2 Timothy chapter 2, and he talks of Hymenaeus and Theletus, who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already, and overthrow the faith of some.

Well, I can't imagine Billy Graham in his practice, and even his words, you never heard him talking about a

Christian leader that they concerning the truth have erred. And so I certainly can't speculate on any particular thing, but yet his whole pattern is that.

Chris, I don't want to interject, but the American Council of Christian Churches released a statement today concerning Dr.

Graham and his death, and if there's time, the last two paragraphs, I think, are really...

Yeah, please, go ahead. Okay, the council writes, the legacy that the late

Dr. Graham has left is an evangelical movement bereft of any unyielding theological moorings.

By embracing the strategy of compromise with those who denied the faith of the scriptures, he, like his new evangelical colleagues, did not influence the liberals to a more biblical position.

Instead, the liberals dragged Graham further and further from the message with which he began his ministry.

Therefore, the American Council of Christian Churches, while joining in expressing sympathy to Dr.

Graham's family on the occasion of his death, must remain steadfast in defense of the faith by urging the rejection of Billy Graham's compromising strategy and the repudiation of his legacy of vacillation that has provided encouragement to those who despise the truth of the gospel as we find it in the scriptures.

We resolve to remain true to the position to which our Lord has called us to come out from among those who refuse the truth and to be separated unto

Jesus Christ. That's an excellent statement. Let's see, we have

RJ in White Plains, New York, and RJ says,

Are you aware if Billy Graham maintained close friendships with any very solidly biblical ministers who over and over again urged him to repent of his erring ways?

Obviously, those urgings being refused by Graham. Are you aware of any such kind of close relationships with genuine, solidly biblical

Christians? Yes, Billy Graham was solidly in the fundamentalist movement in the 1940s and as many know, he attended

Bob Jones College, which is now Bob Jones University, and was very good friends with the

Jones family. Dr. Bob Jones Sr. himself was a noted evangelist in the very early 20th century.

Dr. Graham was friends with Robert Ketchum of the

General Association of Regular Baptists and most of the fundamentalist world at that time, he had close connections.

Carl McIntyre, the founding president of the

International Council, spoke at Graham's church in Charlotte. There's quite a few that could be mentioned.

RJ was specifically saying any friendships that he maintained until his death that you were aware of with solidly biblical people who were urging him to repent of his errors.

Well, I think that he may have maintained friendships. In fact, when

Bob Jones Jr. passed away, who was an outspoken critic of Graham, Graham wrote a eulogy at Jones's death, speaking of their close friendship, and in fact, one of the first hour of decision programs was made in the facilities at Bob Jones.

But I imagine, though, by the end of his life, after decades of rejecting the fundamentalist position, that most of those that worked with him would have accepted his philosophy of working with anybody and everyone.

Well, thank you, RJ. You have also won a free copy of The Legacy of Billy Graham, The Accommodation of Truth Through Error in the

Evangelical Church. Compliments of our guest, Brad Zell, and also compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

who will be shipping that booklet out to you. Please make sure we have your full mailing address. We have

Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who says, I have heard that there were

Christians who were victims of communist persecution who were outraged when

Billy Graham visited the Soviet Union and gave the communists a clean bill of health, spiritually and theologically speaking, in regard to their treatment of Christians.

Is this true? Yes. Back in the,

I believe, the 1980s, Billy Graham went to the Soviet Union, and while he was in the first battle of Moscow, some of the believers held down banners in opposition and he spoke in a number of the cities in Eastern Europe.

And for those that have studied this, there was terrible persecution under the

Soviet rule, particularly of Bible believers. They had their showplace churches with Russian Orthodox clergy, and they would come to America and pretend to be

Christians. I believe it was Alexander Solzhenitsyn that wrote a spectacle not seen in 2 ,000 years with atheists running the churches in the

Soviet Union. I remember the Russian Baptists, Jacob and Michael Zhidkov and Alexei Bychkov, and they wrote to Stalin on the 40th anniversary of the

Soviet Union saying that communism was bringing in the kingdom of God.

And so this was a charade. And again, Graham had the philosophy that if he was given great access to speak, then that didn't matter that he went under the sponsorship of some of these, who really,

I believe later, some of these so -called clergymen were found to be KGB agents.

Wow, yeah, and I'm almost certain Richard Warmbrand had a lot of criticism towards Billy Graham in regard to his softening or even eclipsing the truth in regard to the persecution of Christians by the

Soviet Union. That is correct. And in fact, even as far back as 1966, when

Graham had his World Congress on Evangelism in Berlin, I believe

Richard Warmbrand was disinvited because he planned to speak against the communist persecution.

Well, thank you, Ronald. You're also getting a free copy of The Legacy of Billy Graham. Please give us your full mailing address.

We have, let's see here. We have

John in Bangor, Maine, who says, didn't

Billy Graham have a heretical understanding of revelation, a view that seemed to deny superstition and supernatural revelation in favor of natural?

Yes, we touched on that somewhat. I believe when we discussed

Robert Shuler and so forth, a lot of his thinking is rooted in the idea that supernatural revelation isn't necessary to salvation, that by the creation around us and so forth, that we can have enough light.

But the Bible says, how shall they hear without a preacher? And faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

And so we believe that supernatural revelation is indispensable.

And that's been the position of all the reformers and Charles Hodge, one of my favorite theologians, clearly stated that in his systematic theology.

Well, thank you, John. You've also won a free copy of The Legacy of Billy Graham. Make sure we have your full mailing address.

Before I take any more listeners' questions, I want you to have about four minutes of time uninterrupted where you can summarize the things that you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

Okay. The Bible is...

Sometimes it's not something that we can understand. It's something that we don't want to follow.

We can't follow Christ on our own. The Old Testament talks about the arm of flesh that will fail us.

And God's work must be done in God's way in order to receive

God's blessing. And if we strategize and think, well, if I do this,

I'll be able to accomplish this, we often run into our biggest troubles.

What we should do is to be faithful, to pray, to use the talents that God has given us.

Not that we should be in inaction or disarray.

No, but we are to do what God would have us to do. And how many faithful believers have we seen?

How many faithful grandmothers who sit down and pray every day for their families and their church and their nation?

And God is going to be more happy and pleased with them than he is the man that is out doing all kinds of things and getting notoriety, but yet not doing it according to God's word.

And if we have those principles, I believe our

Puritan forefathers in Europe and the United States and many who were here when our country was founded, just a simple trust in the

Lord and working day by day using our time, our talents, and all that God has given us.

God tells us, Paul tells us in the New Testament that whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

And we speak of giving the gospel, let not us be lax in going forth and giving the gospel of the whole

New Testament. We talked about Mark 16, 15 and Matthew 28 and Acts 1, 8 tells us that this is a very important verse,

Acts 1, 8, it says, ye shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem and in Judea and Samaria and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

But we often forget the first part of that verse that tells us, but ye shall receive power after that the

Holy Ghost has come upon you. And so we don't go preach the gospel in our own power and strength, but ye shall receive power and let us have a burning desire to see souls come to Christ and then to disciple them and to let's live our lives so that they're exemplary before the

Lord and that ye are epistles written before men and let

Christ be seen in our lives. And I think that's the thing that we need to remember.

Also, study sound doctrine. Timothy 3, 16 tells us that all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, truly furnished unto all good works.

And the very first thing there is doctrine, study what the Bible teaches, understand the

Bible, know the Bible, be a lifelong student of the Bible. And then these other things, once we know the scriptures and as we continue to know them, it'll bring us back into line.

It'll give us reproof when we do wrong. It'll correct us when we are not doing what we should and give us instruction in righteousness.

And those are the things that we all need to remember.

This is a very wicked day in which we live. And our paper,

Redeeming the Times, comes from Ephesians 5, 16, redeeming the time because the days are evil and let's not fret and despair as we see so much around us, but let us be joyful in serving the

Lord and living our lives as he would have us to live them. Amen. Didn't you have some kind of an offer you wanted to mention about your magazine?

Yes. The same email address that I gave earlier, redeemingthetimeatbellsouth .net,

if you send your address, we'll give you a free subscription to our 16 -page quarterly magazine,

Redeeming the Time. And just to set your mind at ease, we rarely send out any other mailings.

So you won't be in undated with a bunch of junk mail, just the quarterly magazine.

And we also have the legacy of Billy Graham, both in English and in Spanish, should you desire to have a copy.

Well, I want to thank you so much for being my guest today. I want to thank you so much for taking a very sensitive and controversial issue and bathing it with grace, not being more offensive than need be and letting the truth speak for itself in this area.

I hope to have you back on the program in the near future again. Brad Zell. Well, thank you,

Chris. It's been my privilege to be with you today. I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write in questions.

Those of you, the few of you that were still waiting to have your questions asked and answered, you've also won a free copy of the booklet that we have been discussing, the legacy of Billy Graham.

I hope you all have a safe and blessed weekend and Lord's Day. And I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.