March 22, 2019 Show with Rich Jensen on “What Does Discipleship Look Like & What Does It Mean to Abide in Christ? (John 14-17)”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister, George Norcross, in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

Proverbs Chapter 27, Verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

The Church's Need for Discipleship and Abiding in Christ

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 22nd day of March, 2019, and I'm thrilled to have back on the program a dear friend of mine that I've known for many years, going back to the 1980s, and I am so delighted to have him as a returning guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

His name is Pastor Rich Jensen, and he pastors Hope Reform Baptist Church now of Coram, Long Island, New York, previously having served in the Medford and before that the Farmingville, Long Island area, and in fact, they are going to be having an event this Sunday, Sunday afternoon at 3 p .m., I believe, a dedication service for their new building in Coram, Long Island, and today we are going to be addressing the theme, What Does Discipleship Look Like?

And What Does It Mean to Abide in Christ? And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Rich Jensen. It's good to be with you again, Chris. And the pleasure is always mine, brother, and the email address, if anybody has questions for Pastor Rich Jensen on discipleship, on abiding in Christ, or any other theological issue that you care to bring up, that's fine.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com, and please, as always, give us your first name, at least, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside the USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Well, Pastor Rich, if you could, tell our listeners something about Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island.

Well, Hope was formed back in 1996, Reform Baptist Church in Merrick, where I used to be. Yep, that's correct, and Formed Doctrines.

And God willing, I will be there, brother. I am making plans as I speak with you, of course, in between commercial breaks, to get there and to enjoy the fellowship of the brethren there at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Long Island, New York.

In fact, let me now, for any of you who live on Long Island, or even in the New York tri-state area, who would like to attend this event, the website for Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island is hopereformedli .net, hopereformedli .net, and all of the details are there.

I hope to see you there this Sunday at the dedication service for the new building in Coram, Long Island, for Hope Reform Baptist Church. Well, you picked, I think, a very good theme today, to speak on today.

What does discipleship look like, and what does it mean to abide in Christ? The first part of that theme, I think that you would probably agree, is one of the most lacking areas in modern evangelicalism in the 21st century.

The area of discipleship and discipline seems to have vanished. People go to church to not only have fun with their friends, which is always a good thing, there's nothing wrong with that, but if that is the sole reason, or the most important reason, in addition to hearing a message that may solely be based on giving people an uplifted spirit and encouragement and so on, this is not really what Christ's church was intended to be, I'm sure you would agree.

But what are your comments on what I just said? Well, of course I agree.

The reason I chose this topic is it comes out of the study that we're doing in our Sunday morning worships through the Gospel of John, and we've reached that point. His left, the dude Adam there, is a life that is...

We have a listener in Hartsdale, New York, Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, who asks, Do you think that someone who is not under church discipline should be welcomed... Let's see if I'm reading this right.

I think he wrote this wrongly. Let me read it the way I think he should have wrote it. Okay. Should you welcome those who are under church discipline in one congregation into your church under any circumstance, or if there are circumstances, what would they be?

Okay, the general answer is if you know that somebody is under church discipline, it's an obligation to contact the eldership of the church that they're communicated in and find out what the circumstances are.

If you're under church discipline in the Kingdom of God, that is not something... In fact, I can say that many years ago...

And the person who wrote didn't say specifically that the person was excommunicated. They might be going under church discipline. I guess there would be certain circumstances when, if you were in agreement with the pastor that the disciplinee is a member of, like for instance, if there was adultery that took place, that church would probably want that person.

I'm guessing here. I don't know if it would always be the case, but I'm sure that they would probably want that person to be attending, at least temporarily, another church away from the church where the other guilty party was.

Yeah, well, there's a difference. I mean, I believe that anybody evens to a church. It's just a question of welcoming them. I took the question to mean welcoming them into fellowship. You can't do that.

You've excommunicated. When you excommunicate, and that's the end of it.

Well, and yes, and of course, the other flaw in the ointment here that makes the issue more complicated is there have been people who have been under discipline and excommunicated from churches wrongly because the churches themselves are cultic or heretical in some way.

They may have excommunicated a person for being a Calvinist.

That's true, and between the eldership of it, we found out that what...

And well, thank you, Bobby. We also have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, and by the way, I would urge both of you, Bobby and CJ, to head down to Coram this Sunday, even if you are a member of your local church where you are.

This would be typically well after anyone's morning worship services. This would be a celebration of a new building that they have there in Coram, Long Island, for Hope Reform Baptist Church. But CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, says, What would you say are the key ingredients that would go under the heading of discipleship in a church?

Well, discipleship, unity, and those type of things, now those are all necessary into the image of Jesus. The primary thing. And once the person has in outward actions...

Thanks, CJ. Keep listening there in Lindenhurst, Long Island, and spreading the word about Iron Sharp and Zion Radio there and everywhere you go. Well, specifically, what are the core lessons we are to learn from the passage in John, starting in chapter 14 and ending in chapter 17, about this issue that we are addressing?

What does discipleship look like in abiding in Christ? What are some of those key areas that we cannot overlook today when addressing this?

Well, you know what, let me think of when we talk about another comfort, an exhortation, though he is gone. And now that Judas is telling them, I'm going to go, and I'm not going to be with you much longer.

Not right away, not a negative thing, he's not sending them out on an imposter.

Would you not say that in many respects, this is at the core of what separates true and false Christianity? Because you have some, in fact, much of modern evangelicalism that is only concerned with quote, quote, getting people saved.

And very often, what they're doing is they're not even getting people saved. Of course, we know that only God gets people saved, but he uses us as his means to proclaim the gospel, to evangelize, and so on.

But people are very often going to these warehouses called churches, and they are just being comforted that they are saved when they're still lost, and there is no discipleship going on.

No, you're absolutely right, and that flies in the face of the entire, the whole Bible itself. You can, but once you're in, if there is no change...

Church Discipline, Excommunication, and Welcoming the Repentant

Well, we have to go to our first commercial break right now. If anybody would like to join us with a question for Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church on the issue of discipleship and on the issue of abiding in Christ, or any issue really involving theology and doctrine and Christianity, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com.

Chrisarnsen at gmail dot com. We ask of you to please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence, at least, if you live outside of the USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

That's chrisarnsen at gmail dot com. Chrisarnsen at gmail dot com. Don't go away, God willing, we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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Membership, Baptism, and Confessional Standards

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, if you just tuned us in. Our guest today for the full two hours, with about 90 minutes to go, is Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York.

We are discussing what does discipleship look like and what does it mean to abide in Christ. Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com. If you have a question, chrisarnzen at gmail .com. Please give us, as always, your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

We have Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York. And Ronald asks, I know that there is a difference between confessional Baptist churches on who they grant membership to. Obviously, baptism of a believer by immersion is required for most Baptist churches, and a credible profession of faith, of course.

But the issue regards how much of the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith a membership candidate would have to agree with. Sometimes I think churches insist upon too much, especially when it comes to new believers.

I have considered it the best method to allow into membership people you believe to be truly born again as long as they submit to the fact that the teachings of the confession are the official standard for the congregation, and not expect a new convert to grow leaps and bounds within a short period of time to comprehend and embrace all that is in the confession.

What is your opinion? Great question.

And we are a full subscript. R .J. in White Plains, New York, who has a similar question,.

R .J. in White Plains, New York, asks, I have heard that there are many Reformed Baptist churches who waffle on the necessity for submitting to baptism by immersion as a believer when it comes to certain members who are Presbyterian.

To me, it seems like favoritism, and it doesn't seem to me like you're doing anyone a favor by basically aiding them in disobeying God with the true ordinance of baptism. I mean no mean-spiritedness toward my Presbyterian brothers and sisters.

I love them, I benefit much from them, and welcome them in the pulpit of the church where I am. I look forward to hearing them preach, etc. But I think that we should not waffle on the ordinances of the church just because someone may be a dear brother and sister in Christ and closely believe to what we agree upon.

So what is your opinion on that? Should a Reformed Baptist church ever say to a Presbyterian, well, you can become a member even though you've never been baptized in the biblical way. In fact, you've never been baptized at all when you think about it.

Because I know that that is done on occasion. I don't know about every Reformed Baptist church, but what is your opinion on that?

Well, we've never been faced with that. Again, I would say that we would...

Great. Let's see. We have Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania. And Susan Margaret says, I believe in the complementarian understanding of authority in the church. I believe that only men should be rulers in their homes and in the congregation.

But I think that often when it comes to discipleship, women are being overlooked as the ones that the Bible subscribes to disciple younger women. Do you agree with this? Do you think that more older women should be involved in the discipling of young ladies in the church?

Absolutely. Would you agree with what she said? Do you think it's perhaps even in our circles more than any that it's overlooked because of the fact that we do have a very strict understanding of male headship in the home and in the church?

Do you think that we are guilty as she is insinuating? Guilty of overlooking that aspect of discipleship.

I can't speak for other churches, but...

I think it's time for another cup of tea. What do you think?

I just popped a cough drop, so...

Well, thank you, Susan Margaret. Keep listening and keep spreading the word about Iron Sherpa and Siren Radio there. Dauphin County, Pennsylvania and beyond. Let's see here. We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know, Do you think that sometimes a church is harmed when it comes to discipleship when they do not interact enough with other like-minded churches and they become an island unto themselves and therefore you have pastors who do not have the appropriate fellowship and accountability with other pastors to be the best in their ability to disciple others?

He's specifically referring to, it is obvious, the fact that we who are Baptists believe in the autonomy of the local church, that there is no hierarchical authority outside of the local elders other than God himself and the Holy Scriptures, of course.

So is that a bad thing when a Baptist church or any other kind of independent-minded church does not have interaction with other congregations who are like-minded? Does the discipling process suffer?

Yes, I would agree with that. I think it's not just that we need to...

Sure, and I'll take this time to repeat our email address if anybody would like to join us. Our email address is chrisarenson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. That's chrisarenson at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-E-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Okay, Richie, you ready? Yes, I'm back.

What we have here on, we found that to be very... Yes, amen.

And let's see here. We have a question from Christian in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York. And Christian says, How important, if at all, do you think it is for churches and pastors to have fellowship and relationships with Christians outside of their immediate circles of theology and confessional expressions?

I have learned much from those outside of my exclusive Calvinistic circles. Not that I would ever for a minute waver on any of the principles, I believe, or become soft on them. I just think that it can be unwise to only fellowship with a very tight circle of people who agree with us on every jot and tittle.

Well, I mean, I think we do have to...

I can say that I agree with, I think, the direction our listener is coming from. Obviously, there should always be guardrails around the levels of fellowship that you have with people that disagree with you.

You're not going to let somebody teach very important doctrines from a pulpit in your church that disagree with your own confessional standard. But, having said that, I have learned from close friendships.

I've learned from brothers and sisters in Christ who are Arminian and so on. Not necessarily theology, but some of them have been profound and have put me to shame, in fact, many of them have, in regards to their obedience to Christ, their holiness.

You can have an Arminian brother who is a far better husband than you are, a far better father than you are, a far better son to a parent than you are. I could go on and on, and where you could learn from just viewing and experiencing the way that they live and so on.

Wouldn't you agree that sometimes, since we are convinced that our theology is correct, and, of course, I don't think that people should go around doubting their theology, but we could be so convinced of our theology that it overshadows anything else involved in the Christian life, and we can become haughty, we can become arrogant, we can totally dismiss any other brother or sister just because they don't agree with us on our confession.

Am I off base here?

No, I agree with you. I mean, I have...

Oh, of course. Yes, and I think that that was a part of what our listener was saying and what I just said as well. That's why there's certain levels, there's different spheres, if you will, of fellowship that we have.

Like, for instance, I'm sure that you would jump at every opportunity to have Sinclair Ferguson preach at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, but at the same time, you wouldn't want him teaching that infant baptism is the appropriate manner with which we are to administer the church ordinance of baptism and on and on I could go about things like that.

No, I would agree completely. We have Susan in Setauket, Long Island. She says, Hi, Pastor Jensen. I was wondering how often... Actually, let me back up a couple of words. I misread this. I was wondering how the often controversial doctrine of election in the Calvinist sense works for and sometimes against discipling others.

We're discipling others. It's the gospel.

Right, and I'm assuming that you would agree that... I don't know if Susan is saying this in defense or in opposition to election, the way the Calvinists understand it, but you could have a Calvinist, and there are many out there.

I'm sure you've had entanglements or confrontations with some of them that are totally abusing and misusing the way a Christian should present the doctrines of unconditional election and predestination and perhaps give an unbalanced message, not only from their pulpit, but the way they disciple others.

You could even have people who are hyper-Calvinists involved in the discipling of others, and, of course, hyper-Calvinism comes in many flavors. They may put so much emphasis on the sovereignty of God that man's responsibility goes out the window.

Or they could be of the other flavor that would tell anyone who is not a Calvinist that they're lost. I could go on and on, but don't we have to handle these things in a proper perspective? And would you say that election, unconditional election, is as important as, let's say, the doctrine of what Christ accomplished on Calvary, Christ's bodily resurrection, Christ's perfect obedience to the Father in sinlessness, His virgin birth.

I mean, there are elements of the gospel and of Christian teaching that are of different levels of importance, wouldn't you say?

Yes, but when it comes to, and I think to hinder the disciples to shy away from presenting the gospel...

Yes, I have had conversations both with professing Calvinists and those who are not, who I think are mistaken when they say that issues like unconditional election and particular redemption and so on, the elements of the acronym TULIP, that those things are for your seasoned disciples that are only really profitable for when you're having in-depth Bible studies, but we really shouldn't be confusing people and bringing these things up when we evangelize the lost.

Well, the thing that I have to remind them of when they say things like that is that Jesus Christ Himself said things that were very... What's the word I'm looking for? Offensive to the sensibilities of natural man, and the doctrines of sovereign grace can be very offensive because people want to be in charge of their own destiny, they want to be in charge of everything in their lives, they don't want to have the idea that there is a sovereign over them that is in control, and in fact, Jesus thinned out the herd, did He not, when He basically said to the crowds that no one can come to Him unless it has been given to Him by the Father, and people left Him and never followed Him again after He said that.

He was basically speaking about something that is a key element of what we would call Calvinism or the doctrines of sovereign grace.

Sure. Exactly. In fact, if anybody wants to read directly the passage that I was speaking about,.

Go to Gospel of John chapter 6, and you can start somewhere in verse 63, I mean, you can read the whole chapter, of course, but 63 through 65 are really the passages that specifically address how Jesus Christ offended the crowds, many in the crowds, by speaking something that is really a unique teaching of Reformed faith today.

Most evangelicals do not believe in the way that we view the ordo salutis. Wouldn't you say that this passage is really addressing the ordo salutis? The Father has to grant the ability for someone to come to Christ.

In other words, the natural man cannot conjure up a faith that pleases God out of his stony, hard, cold heart.

Paul says the heart can't come to God. He's not even able to come to God. Amen.

Sovereign Grace, the Ordo Salutis, and Evangelism

Well, we have to go to our midway station break right now. The midway station break is the longer-than-normal break because Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida requires of us this break so that they can air their own public service announcements and commercials to localize Iron Trip and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida.

So please be patient with us as we take this longer-than-normal break and use this time wisely not only to write down questions for Rich Jensen, but also to write down the information provided by our advertisers because the more you successfully and the more frequently you patronize our advertisers, the more likely they are going to be continuing as our advertisers, and we depend on our advertisers to exist because we could not survive without the money that they provide through their advertising.

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Chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Please give us, as always, your first name, city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away, God willing, we will be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

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Armed with this coverage, World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community. This trial includes bi-weekly issues of World Magazine, on-scene reporting from World Radio, and the fully shareable content of World Digital.

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In fellowship, play, and together.

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Call Lindbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402. Or visit LindbrookBaptist .org. That's LindbrookBaptist .org. Iron Sharpens Iron.

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