Cultish: C Street & The Cult Of Right Wing Politics, Pt. 2

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Is Protestantism Heresy? Pt. 3 - The Pope | Collision w/ Jeff Durbin

00:00

Hey, what is up everyone? It is Jeremiah. Once again, one of the co -hosts here at cultish

00:05

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01:15

As we head into another blazing hot summer. All right, our guest once again is that loud and schlager?

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We're talking about the Netflix documentary the family and really talking about the aspects of right -wing politics.

01:29

We had a great time Really had really great conversation. So looking forward to getting your feedback and we had a great time talking to him

01:36

So enjoy the second part of this conversation. Enjoy the podcast One year ago today

01:45

Trump supporters from across the country gathered in the nation's capital to protest

01:50

Congress's certification of the 2020 presidential election results to use a favorite term that all of you people really came up with We will stop the steal

02:03

At a rally near the White House President Trump spoke to a crowd estimated in the thousands everyone from ordinary

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Americans to conspiracy theorists To members of right -wing extremist groups, we will never give up We will never concede

02:18

Trump repeated the lie that the election was stolen Urging his supporters to march to the

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Capitol and fight you'll never take back our country with weakness

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We fight like hell and if you don't fight like hell, you're not gonna have a country anymore Around 1 p .m

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As Trump is wrapping up his remarks in the park the day turned violent a group of his supporters on the western side of the

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Capitol confront the handful of police guarding the barriers and force their way through. All right.

02:49

Welcome back Ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the cults. My name is Jeremiah Roberts one of the co -hosts here.

02:56

I am joined By Andrew the super sleuth of the show good to see you in person.

03:01

Yeah in your super secret headquarters I gotta get me some of my own posters as well.

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So you've got such like I love this set up I can't talk about enough. It's great to see it in person. Praise God. Awesome.

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Well, we are joined back here By Zack loudenschlager. It's good to have you back man. Thank you

03:18

Yeah just so if you have not listened to this is the second part of our talk kind of really on the

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Netflix show the the family and kind of really talking about the political world in general

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But also kind of this is more aimed on the right Wing side of politics in a very interesting way

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I'm sure I'm sure this is gonna bring everyone in our audience just together to sing kumbaya.

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It's gonna be great But you know, we want to be fair I think we need to look at all different sides and call balls and strikes you know, we've done culture state of the unions where kind of talk about areas of You know like the leftism in our society and secular humanism and the aspects where that's being influenced

03:55

But you know, we want to kind of take a look at an honest assessment of the world politics I think there's some fair things to talk about so Jumping into that what you heard was a clip from PBS, I believed caught talking about January 6 the day that will live in infamy, you know the the insurrection so It was interesting for me because I feel like that we just talked about before the podcast

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Um, I feel like that was sort of the crescendo of everything that occurred in 2020 It was the most crazy most polarizing year everything from whether or not, you know

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You should follow the lockdowns whether or not you should obey the government from you know Whether or not you should wear a mask

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It just it's kind of really brought out into the forefront every aspect of how we really felt about each other

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But also I feel like you found out a lot about really the overreach of government It was almost everyone all of a sudden knew who everyone else's governor was

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Like no one else knew that prior to 2020 and it's like oh, who's that the lady, Michigan Gretchen?

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And then you have Oh Gavin Newsom. Who's that? And all of a sudden you find out governor DeSantis from Florida No one knew who he was prior to 2020.

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So there's Kristi Noem. Yes, very interesting year But let's just jump right into it. So you were there.

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I was on January 6 didn't go in the building Yeah, otherwise, it wouldn't be sitting here. Yeah, why why were you there to start off?

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Well, I was actually there to commentate on it with apology of studios and with Jeff Durbin And he asked me to come along and just provide political commentary as it was happening.

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I mean here you're gonna have a Huge gathering and so we were there to report on it and discuss it We're standing there stood there the whole day at the rally

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You're talking about standing there for 10 hours Just standing in a crowd that you really can't move around in We set up an area to film and there were always people trying to push through the crowd and and so he really just had to Stand there and tell him go around go around because you're walking between Jeff and camera and so We were there to talk about How what should the

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Christian response be to all of this and at one point is this correct and what point is it not you know,

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I think one of the major things and important things to recognize is that As we look back at the 2020 election.

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It was the first time large numbers of people in their lifetime Recognized that an election could be there could be cheating that it's possible that it could be stolen

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That there could be things going on here that they're wrong or immoral Of course, we would all say well, of course it could happen

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But this is the first time they were like, oh my goodness. It just happened, right? Right, and so there was this very strong spirit among conservatives that if we don't do something right now, that's it

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It's all over we got it We gotta do something and so that leads to how about breaking windows to the

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Capitol and opening the door and trying to go in there and with some vague idea of just Arrange of protests to somehow making

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Congress listen, right? The idea that the media loves it is to hammer it all day all night that this was an insurrection that this was a bunch

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Of armed people going in to take over a government and force people do stuff. Oh, please And what are the pictures we have we've got the dude running around with Nancy Pelosi's podium, right?

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It is it's vandalistic tourism. Well, you have the QAnon shaman The horns and the

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Buffalo guy, yeah Buffalo on a dude on that So, yeah the on that dude and what about you know, what about Antifa what about the left provoking it?

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Well Buffalo dude does go to leftist rallies I mean in Arizona where he's from Jake, what's his last name?

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But Jake shows up the razzle bender rallies that Jake has been at he he loves the attention and he just likes rabble rousing on either side, right

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Where their leftist agent provocateurs there? Yeah. Sure. There always are. Of course there were you know all the

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We got pictures of all the you know The FBI dudes wearing the exact same shirt and and pants a little shorts and and shoes and and everything right from later events

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Don't tell me they weren't there. Of course they were there But you know as we went from the rally there by the

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Capitol But it was basically by the White House between the White House and the Washington Memorial To walking down the street to the

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Capitol There definitely was Change in attitude and our side saying we're gonna get in there.

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We're gonna do something I have friends who were much more closer to the building. I we talked to people who went in And asked him what are you doing?

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Why what we got to do something? Well, what did you think you were gonna do in there? How is that? How does that fix anything? You're now going from a protest which is constitutionally protected speech and a good thing to do usually in any case as long as it's peaceful Not saying that the ends are all where the means are always good or the ends to be achieved but protesting is a constitutionally protected form of speech to violating

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Property, we're actually gonna break stuff and we're gonna threaten to hurt people. Okay, that's what's wrong and ultimately

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Well tyranny is when a we use government to break stuff and hurt people

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To say I'm going to force you to do things and take away your freedom. I'm gonna take away your property I'm gonna I'm gonna hurt you and break your stuff, right?

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What is mob violence? It's using a mob to say I'm going to hurt you and take your stuff

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Mm -hmm It's the exact same thing just done through a slightly different group of people and so once it goes from being we're protesting to now we're going to break stuff to get attention or we're going to break in To make something happen

09:31

Sure, where there people in the crowd who thought that obviously most of them were like, well, we got to do something There's a protest, you know, we're gonna we're gonna gonna do what our forefathers did, right?

09:40

No, our forefathers Consistently condemned mob violence anytime there is an effort to hurt people or break stuff

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They said you can't do that because that's tyranny. Mm -hmm, and you can go back and listen, you know We can look at that all kinds of opportunities there to examine what actually happened to Boston Tea Party.

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They the Boston Massacre April 19th and like singing the

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Concord and and the entire war so That is very different from what's going on there

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So, you know, it's it becomes this it's it's political and theological

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Illiteracy that leads to that kind of desperation. We really don't know how this works We don't recognize that.

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No, this is not the end of the world. It's not the end of our country It's not the end of anything. It's just it's another transition.

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Is it going a certain direction? Yes. Do we like the policies that Joe Biden? Promised to support and has now carried through on some of them.

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No, absolutely not. That's wrong Is it a warrant to go out and become a violent mob?

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No, no, this is this is wrong. It's just always wrong and it never goes anywhere good Obviously, did we what did we get did we get net positive or net loss by Breaking into the capital if we'd stopped sure to break into the capital.

10:56

Yeah, so it's another Protest big deal. Yeah, interesting What do you think because a lot of people would just take a look at January 6th, and I think it just it's again

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It's another just example of the polarization like of our country and you know, regardless of how you feel about Donald Trump He was a very

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Polarizing political figure. I mean he was kind of known for the Trump tweets. In fact one of my favorite there's actually Some people

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I think misunderstood the tweets as if I feel like it was almost like a pump fake Like in basketball how you like you draw the foul like oh,

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I'm gonna say something outrageous over here Let me go over here and do something else. And but it was for me

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I it was over the time like yeah, it was there's one. It was definitely entertaining for sure

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Oh sure, but some of the tweets that are pretty wild I won't there's a couple examples I could think of But I don't know but honestly like what's what?

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I mean just kind of given your political involvement and we're kind of talking about just the right -wing World and like in part five they they talked about Trump being sort of this

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Messianic figure that everyone's sort of backing and all that sort of stuff, right? What's your honest thought on Donald Trump and the

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Trump administration just from your perspective? Just like every other president in the sense that some things were good and some things weren't

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And this is this is the nature of Number one of humanity of being a human and it's an it is the nature of human leadership

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There are many things that I appreciate about Donald Trump Many things that he did well and his trajectory in government in office was actually went the right way

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He went from being more arrogant to less arrogant more crass to less crass Self -serving self, you know, and he was fairly gave off this whole, you know,

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I don't really need to repent thing To openly saying I you know, I need to repent. These are things that that that Those are good things just from a personal perspective, right?

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But on the policy side, you also have many good things many bad things Trump actually supported several pieces of a gun control that Obama had tried to pass and failed and Trump got it done

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Oh, wow. So yeah, I'm sorry that that's that's the reality. He took bad advice the other flip side of the coin

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Many of the things that that Trump tried to do and worked on doing We're very good.

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He discovered that the president the United States is not a CEO You don't get to tell government jump and they say how high he discovered that this is a process and that we have

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Separation of powers for a reason. It's a very good reason We don't want things to happen quickly president

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Trump And I think that he would probably you know in theory acknowledge that that's true and that's good

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But he in that reality did work to do many good things and so You know

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Trump is the devil incarnate. We should you know, we shouldn't make comedy sketches about stabbing him and cutting his head off and No, that's evil and Trump is our sale our

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Savior He is you know, these there's gonna be a second coming of Trump now Yeah, right and I'm not saying if he was elected there would be good things and bad things.

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Okay But it's the attitude that just says oh America is lost unless we elect

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Trump and America is saved if we do elect Trump. No, that's that is Anti, it's anti -christian.

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I'm sorry. You're you're placing You're looking for salvation in something other than Christ. How are you staying?

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So level -headed, right? How can I've done this for a long time.

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I grew up in a political family to a degree. You just have to look out go Okay, that's interesting After it went once you get a base of experience and I drew on the experience with my father and grandfather

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My granddad was Barry Goldwater activist He supported Goldwater and this is my mom's dad

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He's gone now, but had a huge impact on me when they lost at till LBJ He threw up his hands that that's it.

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It's all over America is done He started buying survival food and guns and heading for the hills, right? And he became kind of became more reclusive and years later he sat me down told me

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Zach we should not have done that Oh sure. You should be prepared to protect yourself. I believe in the right to keep bear arms

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We should have food stores You should be able to feed your family even if there are supply chain issues like that'll never happen in the

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United States, right? That was satire, yeah asterisk nervous laughter

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But he said we should have done both we should have stayed politically active think of all that we could have done think how

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Much worse it is now because conservatives ran for the hills and got out Oh, you lose one election and that's it obviously because candidate

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X fell in the blank lost. Therefore. It's all over Well, believe it or not.

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It's not the first time it's ever happened in America I was blessed that I had someone there who was there in 1964 when we lost to Lyndon Baines Johnson, which was horrible

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LBJ is my least favorite president people like to point to FDR people like to point to Woodrow Wilson No, it was

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Johnson Johnson was evil. Mm -hmm and just a horrible person personally There's a reason why we refer to a particular part of the anatomy by his last name

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Yes, I won't go further than that on this show, but there is a reason He was famous for for exposing himself, right?

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And so just just a horrible person and but anyway, so that's the reality even knew what Johnson was

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He'd already been president. He had already dragged us into a horrible way to get into Vietnam And a horrible way to carry it out and we knew it was gonna get worse and it got a lot worse over the next

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Four years, right and you know, that's that's the terror and you've got the race riots and you've got the 1960s

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We forget that the next time that's happened in American politics what we called it 2020

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Okay, 2020 is comparable to what happened in the 1960s and so to answer that question,

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I guess that makes yes There's some experience there that you you keep going you do what you're supposed to do

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Duty is ours results are God's that's what it comes down to and you can credit that to multiple different American people

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American Figures because it is a distinctly it's not distinctly American, but it has it is heavily influenced the

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American psyche And that in American history People who did well believed that to set some degree it's at some level to some degree

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We are responsible for our actions that God is the one who determines the outcome Yeah It's what it sounds like to me is like as Christians We should be able to have that objective viewpoint outside of politics to where if something like this happens

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Our Savior isn't put up on a cross. Correct. He was already put up on a cross like it's it seems like people's idols

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Become torn down so they get emotionally attached so they can't have a level -headedness and they can't think

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About what is actually going on in government and it almost seems like the government thrives off of that Oh, absolutely

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How many times have you heard this is the most important election of our lifetime every until two years from now

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Which will then become the most important election of our lifetime? And yeah, basically you've already hearing that 2020 to the 2022 elections

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Like this is the last this is the last opportunity turn into communist China and all that and just an example

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I mean jumping back to the docu -series and and in reality a lot of projecting they talked about the one governor who had an affair with his with his he was unfaithful to his wife

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South Carolina and In the pride and they you they told him to kind of use the utilize King David in that story that this duck

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I'm not I'm still enough. I'm able to stay in office because you know, God can still work with me in spite of my

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Sin and and acting as if it's only Republicans who do that But if you just jump back to you know the time during Clinton during the affair of Monica Lewinsky, it's interesting

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I was in high school Going to actually went to Washington DC on this trip to see all the national monuments and things like that So I was actually in DC like on when everything and sort of hit its climax when it came to everything going on with a

18:55

Bill Clinton and then Monica Lewinsky case and all the Merchandise and all the all there's so much merch on Like Bill Clinton like risque like right well, like I was said, we're keeping a

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PG but there's you know Photo like tourist what do you call those like a little photo cards right postcards of the blue dress post postcards of the blue dress

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Postcards of Bill Clinton and S &M gear like it was just over the top Like that's just right. That was the nature of what you would see

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But you know when it came to you know, Clinton actually admitting that he you know Did have this affair in light under oath, you know, he he did the exact same thing

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You know, he invoked, you know, my I've I've sinned against you and you only have a sin He sort of was hinting at Psalm 51, you know, you kind of you see it from both sides

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I'm sorry for sure. But what do you think about what you're gonna say? I was just gonna say to win an American politics politics.

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You have to pay homage to Some version of Christianity, right? This is the way it works in politics politicians know this in there

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They will use whoever is there and this is the major flaw in the modern evangelical approach to politics

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Which the family that documented the family tears this limb from limb, right? That's their major objection and that's the part that kind of it's like, oh, oh that that kind of hurts, you know

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That kind of right there even though the whole thing is as I said in the last episode BS and the way they present it and that they're there they are dishonest about Intentionally drawing all these inferences, right?

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Well, we didn't say that what you kind of did it's a conspiracy They turn it into a conspiracy, right? but where they're right is this problem that we have that we don't actually hold people accountable because we believe in this personal

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Jesus and as long as you have the personal Jesus your public acts are kind of you know, Bible really doesn't address that the

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Bible doesn't this is what they say. The Bible doesn't really address politics It only addresses your personal relationship with Jesus Christ and Jesus and nothing else, whatever that might be, right?

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And so became we become willing dupes to an American political system In which if you want to rise to the top you have to have the stamp of approval from right from different groups and one

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Of those groups the major group is the Christian right the moral majority or the silent majority Whatever you want to call it, right?

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And so that instead of holding our politicians accountable and saying yeah No, you're gonna hold you're gonna pay the price for that The price is get out of office

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Yes, there is redemption. It does not involve continuing to Do bad things in office

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Maybe and redemption can include in the future if there is a true sign of repentance as opportunities that you could never hold public office

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But no, no, this is not this is not a church. You know, there's not there are specific moral requirements for Holding an office in church.

21:33

There are also specific moral requirements for holding an office in government You know what? Those are to love righteousness to love justice and dishonest gain.

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That's a very different standard from husband of but one wife Yeah, right. And those are there's one is much more strict than the other.

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Yeah, okay And so but there is a standard and instead of recognizing that there is a standard that God's law does apply in the way that He says it does under its jurisdiction.

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There are certain sections of God's law He says civil government is supposed to do this and rather than saying yeah, that's true

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And so therefore civil magistrates must live according to those standards and must do the things that are required

22:09

Upholding justice. What's the one thing that we don't require our Republican politicians to do actually end abortion?

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It's okay As long as you say you oppose it and then shuffle the buck off to whomever right? Oh well we couldn't do that because the

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Legislature won't pass because the government won't sign it because even if he did the super the courts would overturn it because even if we

22:26

Did get court cases just go to the Supreme Court and die and there's a billion and one reasons why well, we're really sorry

22:31

But we just have to let our pre -born neighbors be killed tomorrow And the next day and the day after that to the tune of 3 ,000 a day in our country, right?

22:38

Well, there's nothing we can do. We've washed our hands like punches Why did Pontius Pilate in this huge political ceremony call for a bowl of water?

22:46

Yeah What's that about? Well, it's not my fault Yes, there are a lot of bowls of water being passed around right now.

22:53

Yeah, I passed around by conservative Christians Yeah, we run around with these bowls saying here's here's the bowl. You know what it is heartbeat bill

22:59

Vote for the heartbeat bill. You're clean. You've washed up. Yeah, good job Our baby's being saved some of them, you know

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Praise God for the babies that are being saved by the heartbeat bill so it's more than just a bowl of water in that case, but it is a it is just a you know, a

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Hand -washing ceremony because why abortion is still legal and now do you know how many abortions are done in Louisiana?

23:22

8 ,000 a year That is more than most other states and by per capita that makes

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Louisiana over way far and above everything You know why how many people are traveling from Texas to Louisiana now to have abortions?

23:35

How many people are traveling across from Mississippi? How many people are coming down from Arkansas? Do you have so it?

23:42

Simply saying that well, you know in Texas we but these aren't happening Yeah, they're fleeing to another state to have abortions right because it's illegal in the next it's legal or more legal or less restricted

23:51

You know, he's gonna become a major place in the Midwest for abortion tourism Colorado just passed up to nine months or you

24:00

Maryland Maryland is just considering it. Yep. They and there it has is they're working it through it past one house, right,

24:06

Colorado It's past both houses and our our friends in Colorado are one of our major allies

24:11

Dave Williams And Pat Neville both held a the longest Filibuster in state history to hold the bill up and did everything that they could do to stop it and of course

24:23

Unfortunately, the Democrat majority there is politely bloodthirsty on the outside, you know

24:29

Oh, well, this is all just about rights and on the inside. We just want to kill people. We want to kill people in the womb and so You know, this is just I'm sorry.

24:37

I think I tripped your train of thought there No, you're good. But that's the that's the reality. We got to have this we got to have this this

24:44

Sanctification this false sanctification of politicians so that we can win office Oh, yeah and I think it's really interesting to like my thoughts and you think about cultish and we when we you know get criticism that we're

24:55

Just another cult talking about cults and but the fact is that we're doing our best to look at The world of the cults from a distinctly

25:02

Christian perspective Because you know We were saying that in order to call something counterfeit like you the existence of a counterfeit predicates the authenticity of an original and a lot of people like Steve Hassan like Rick Allen Ross and These people who are these quote -unquote cold experts.

25:16

They do you know a good job talking about the sociological manipulation the psychological manipulation

25:22

But they really fall short of trying to give a coherent ultimate standard as to why?

25:30

This is the case. It's really kind of pinpointing exact standard of spiritual abuse. I mean Steve Hassan's knowing for saying like oh well in order to Really counter the undue influence that cults do like he came out of the moonies

25:42

He said like well, we need to figure out, you know Do something as far as like having like a UN Declaration of Human Rights kind of appealing to this arbitrary

25:51

Board of who -knows -who that probably they're all speaking different languages They all have the you know that one headset kind of looking in like like who are these people?

25:59

It's just random board of people to decide, you know, what is and isn't brainwashing like what is that? And so in the same way when it comes to you know

26:06

The world of politics both on the left and both on the right. I think even today when it comes to conservative quote -unquote conservatism where people

26:16

They don't there isn't a real exact standard like what exactly are you trying to Conserve and it's becoming a lot more vague and arbitrary and so people can talk about you know people on the left who are very

26:28

You know egotistical and full of themselves and all that on the right wing I mean there you see it there too.

26:34

Like for example, Dan Crenshaw recently He was at this town hall meeting and there's a 14 year old girl who was just asking him

26:41

Not a not a not a mean -spirited question not like a really hardball question just saying that you know

26:47

You talk different when you're out and about versus when you're versus your constituents.

26:53

Are you being double -minded? I think that was a question and Dan Crenshaw lost his temper and started yelling at this 14 year old girl

26:59

Like don't you dare question my faith, you know, that's something like that. I'm not sure. I just did but yeah

27:05

Wow, right and so so you have that but also now during you know the Biden era you have now the let's go

27:12

Brandon conservatism and Now everyone's screaming and is outraged and all that and even for example, you look at you know, the

27:20

Supreme Court They didn't nominee when she's a yes. Can you define a woman and people are making a big deal?

27:26

Oh, well, I'm not a biologist, you know and saying like oh, this is right. This is really wrong You're doing all this but then you know at the same time though you end up having

27:37

On the right on the conservative side Caitlyn Jenner is now on Fox News the conservative

27:44

You know news site and Caitlyn Jenner They're all referring to her as she and you know,

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Sean Hannity is just like oh This is great because now you're on the same side that socialism is bad, right? So it's like like look

27:57

He always was yeah, right there are many things in which and that's I don't mean to interrupt there

28:02

But that is to say that oh, well suddenly Jenner's changed. Oh, please. Give me a break

28:08

Yeah, man I feel like I'm living in a sci -fi dystopian universe by you explaining all those things right now

28:13

Jerry like you use this example all The time and I think it's perfect. It's Pontius Pilate when you guys talking about washing his hands before that He says what is truth?

28:22

And this is the perfect example of two sides two sides of the same coin where they have no idea what truth is

28:29

But you cannot the the reality is is you cannot separate God from government. It's not possible that God's just switch, right?

28:36

We've got the left who's bloodthirsty Who's murdering? Thousands of babies a year.

28:41

I mean up to nine months in Colorado that should put a knot in anybody's stomach

28:46

That should that should just make you want to throw up in a corner like that just hits me so hard Yeah And then we have the far right doing

28:53

Insane things as well because both of them don't actually hold to a standard of what truth is

28:59

They're God that they're worshiping is the state. It's the self and it's actually not gonna do anything

29:04

That's that's good really in in it in the long run. It just gives you judgment from God There's massive confusion going on in our nation

29:12

That's a judgment from God like Jesus is real and he judges the nations in the present And now we have a really confused society

29:19

Whose sacraments is the blood of babies and the blood cries out? From the ground for justice to the living

29:26

God and justice will be had in the nation's in the present Like that's a that's a fundamental reality that scripture says about our condition and that is

29:34

Extremely terrifying, but I feel like I'm in a sci -fi dystopian universe right now Just you explain all those things bro.

29:39

Stunned it up with the yeah, or was it is it Caitlyn Jenner? Yeah on Fox News now, like what is

29:45

Like they feel like Tommy Lauren and other people who are conservative constituents referring to you

29:50

Bruce Jenner Bruce Yeah, this man who got a sex change That's right to pretend that he was a woman and everyone's referring to them as a she how is that every different?

30:01

And so I think Douglas Wilson nailed it. We said that like oh, well, apparently Fox News isn't a biologist either, right?

30:07

Right. So I guess my question was with all this man is like practically, you know, we're talking we're not here to say

30:14

Oh, you have to be a Republican you have to be this you can be libertarian But like first and foremost like we're

30:20

Christians first and we're undeniably Jesus Christ is Lord and you know You have a unique perspective being involved, you know as a legislative lobbyist and doing everything that you do like for the average person

30:31

Like what are some examples of like how can we? Practically live because I see because I see the left and I see all things going on over here like this is bad

30:38

But then I see, you know the typical, you know Right -wing conservative with a let's go

30:44

Brandon just a lot of the I was called like the outrage porn about what Brandon's what? Brandon what

30:50

Biden is doing right and I'm like, ah, like I don't want part of that either. You know what

30:55

I mean? Yeah, what are some practical ways of how we can actually make sense? Yeah of this without being like all 1776 like how do we make sense of all that?

31:04

well, I think first of all being grounded in God's Word and understanding that Nations rise and nations fall and America is not the kingdom of heaven.

31:14

Okay Wow, that's Is it and it can it be an expression of the kingdom? Yes in the way that every nation is called to service and to Christ Kiss the

31:24

Sun lest he be angry as a command to the rulers of the earth right and so Is that unpopular in certain circles?

31:31

Sure. Yes Christianity is unpopular in many circles We've grown up in a world where it's in the water supply and so we're we're a little bit offended when when it's it's suggested that somehow

31:44

Christianity is is Not not the thing, right? This is it. This is dishonorable

31:50

We kind of forget that. Yeah, we we live Historically in a privileged existence in which we still come from an

31:58

American from a country that has a Christian foundation And so we we are blessed in that sense and we're only just now beginning to see what it's like for most everyone else in the rest of the world and has it been

32:11

Through as it has been through most of history Does this so I want to be clear when

32:16

I say that God that this is not God's only work We are not the kingdom. Yes, but we are an expression of it

32:23

Yeah, as every nation is called to be and it is exceptional in the sense that There was much that was done right and we should fight for that But if it's if God in his wisdom decides that that's it

32:39

America as we know it ceases to be And I'm not calling I'm not making any predictions here.

32:45

I'm just saying look What's the deepest darkest fear in the bottom of the heart of the American psyche, right?

32:51

Right, right Okay, so That's God that's

32:57

God's action. What do you do? Look back through history. It's an historical perspective Read the city of God read.

33:05

Yeah, Augustine. Look back at the captivity of the nation of Israel What do you do when your world falls apart?

33:13

And we have to recognize that Augustine was writing about the collapse of an empire the this was the collapse of the fall of Rome He's he's talking about the destruction of something that was in its origin pagan and That was to one degree or another

33:30

Christianized right now. We're talking about a nation that was founded more on biblical principles principles than not but that has had

33:42

Fatal flaws from the beginning in some ways because it's a human institution and that is falling apart

33:47

It's at one degree or another right now. I'm not being fatalistic about it I actually believe that there is tremendous opportunity to see

33:55

America rise again and bless God Right and stand up and say we are going to do what's right

34:02

But this would not be the first time in history that's ever happened This is just another expression of are we going to acknowledge the

34:09

Lordship of Jesus Christ or not? Are we going to? Are we going to serve God or not?

34:15

But the problem with all of this is that from our side on our side we talked about this before we have a counterfeit

34:21

Christianity, especially when applied to civil government that it somehow means Don't drink don't smoke.

34:29

Don't you don't go with girls that do and that becomes the summary It's a trite summary and it's mocking but unfortunately that's become what it means to be a

34:38

Christian in the public sphere well, you know, I don't drink and I'm And I don't do drugs and I'm for the war on drugs and I oppose abortion

34:47

But only in this superficial way, right and I'm against gay marriage as if that was the summary of the entire problem

34:53

Well as long as they don't get married So real quickly like flashback

34:59

I mean, I remember man the 2004 election when Bush was seeking to get reelected and as Bush versus Kerry I was actually at I think at that time is still bake one ballpark or now

35:10

It's Chase field with Arizona IMAX play and so we I went to like a live viewing with a bunch of pro -bush people because that Was his right -wing neo -con as you can get like, you know, so for the troops fight fight the terrorists, you know

35:21

And all that stuff, you know back way back when but I remember watching the third debate with John Kerry And this is just an example like how far when you talk about, you know counterfeit

35:32

Christianity That as far as everything look going on like Oh external like I want to believe these values or just I'm against gay marriage or Whatever and so I remember

35:42

John you may remember that John Kerr was asked a particular question. I remember the question was But he responded by saying well,

35:49

I think if you were if you were to ask Dick Cheney's daughter Who in fact is a lesbian like ooh, and it was

35:57

You know trying to shock everyone Like scare everyone like out of like voting for Bush or whatever and but the reality is is that today

36:06

Any politician who did that like it's over It's they're done their career would be done and the fact that they were trying to use it as a ploy

36:16

To scare conservatives away from the Bush administration tells you like where where everyone stood back then

36:23

Versus now now you can have you know gay conservatives or you can have

36:29

That's totally fine or even like people who are transgender like Caitlyn Jenner as long as they say socialism is bad Like it's really gone further down down the road as far as what is acceptable.

36:39

I'm not willing to talk about it You know it we just have to make continue to maintain that look this is not only is it rebellion against God?

36:48

Okay, it's rebellion against God and we say that because we love these people.

36:53

We don't want to see people destroyed by What it becomes a mental illness and that is that is what this is

37:01

And does that mean that we are going to get? limited on the algorithm probably probably yeah

37:11

Sorry Jerry, that's right. No, but this is this is the reality We have to dig into it and say well, it doesn't change.

37:20

This is this does not change God's immutable principles of truth and it also doesn't change our responsibility to be loving to even to our enemies

37:30

At the same time. It doesn't mean that we're absolved of guilt for not fighting to Make sure that justice is served.

37:38

This is the reality. What does God command government to do? Love justice pursue what is just and what does just mean the word itself means in line with that's all justice means

37:50

It's upright that means in relation to something else. What are we relating to God?

37:56

God, right. Sorry I'm sorry that you don't like that. I mean, I'm not sorry that it's true, but I'm sorry that people not you

38:02

But I'm sorry that people don't like that. It's still true Yeah, what are some examples too? Because I mean

38:07

I remember when you came to apology and men's retreat and you kind of really Introduced a lot about a lot of these ideas to people and I think it was very it was very very helpful for me

38:19

I think for a lot of people like right now who listen in and you know

38:24

I would say a good majority audience deadly leans on the conservative side of things

38:29

I mean, we don't really bring up politics that much most of the time. It's just more. Okay during times of political uncertainty

38:35

That's where cult leaders will use that to exploit people's fears I mean politicians ever do that but on either on both sides

38:42

But I think a lot of times people look at everything that's happening on the federal level like on the main stage

38:47

You know you look at you know Joe Biden most of the time when he's trying to articulate a complete sentence like good luck

38:53

You know when he does it's like right praise God for that. But most of the time it's like who is this guy?

38:58

What is really going on? You know, there's some certainty. There's there's anger There's all this angst when you look at all these things going on that are outside of your control when in reality

39:06

You know the way our country the way our government is set up least here in America We you have a lot of different lesser magistrates everything from your local mayor to the local sheriff

39:16

And so a lot of times people get overwhelmed looking at the big picture like what are some ways people can look at maybe like the smaller aspects of Government back and forth because that's kind of what you're involved in as well, too right and I believe that the

39:29

American renewal will come through local government that is has always been where everything starts and where this will start to when we stop

39:39

Obsessing about who's president and what the federal government is doing now. Is it part of our American politics?

39:45

Yes It's part of it, but we haven't we have an unhealthy imbalance That's one of the huge blessings that has come from 2020 in 2021

39:55

So far is that people suddenly care about? Oh, you mean the Secretary of State matters? You mean that's who tabulates votes.

40:01

You mean if we want to combat cheating we should work there What about state auditors or or excuse me

40:06

County auditors County clerks? The people clerk and recorder the people who count the votes on the county level.

40:12

Yeah, suddenly that matters suddenly We have a renewed interest praise God. That's right And so where do you start?

40:18

well number one do you know the difference between a county commissioner and a and a city councilman other than the fact that they have city and County in the names of is that what it's called in your state?

40:29

There are many different ways that that those things are referred to but what is the form of your county government? What is the form of your city government?

40:36

How does your state work? What's a state representative? How's that different from a member of Congress? What's a state senator? How's that different from a

40:41

US senator from a certain state? How do these things all work? Well, guess what? It's all easily

40:48

Found on Wikipedia. I mean, this is structural stuff. I'm not holding up Wikipedia as some standard of truth

40:56

Don't believe everything you read on the internet But you can go to Wikipedia and it's all easily verifiable

41:02

Wikipedia is remarkably accurate when it comes to describing the difference between a state representative and a congressman for example or how your county government works and Then getting involved in being being part of the process in the sense that you did go to the meeting and you were there and You did hear some of it or you know people who were and you can talk to them

41:22

We can't live in a world where we just get to ignore what happens in politics because it's going to barge in and change your life whether you like it or not, yeah, and So becoming part of that process learning and growing and knowing

41:36

Most people are intimidated by politics is they don't know the difference between a city councilman and a state legislator

41:41

And they really don't know what that means and what issues do these people deal with and who do I talk to about these? Things and how does this work?

41:46

They it's intimidating because they aren't really involved in it Well, it's going to be until you figure it out.

41:52

So figure it out. It's not that hard Yeah And even for example to when you think about just like dealing with a local level you look at like for example

41:59

We're here in Harriman, Utah in your secret super secret headquarters. Yes in your apartment I Just love saying that's it's it's very tongue -in -cheek.

42:07

But like for example, like who who's the mayor? Do you know who the mayor of Harriman is? No, no

42:13

Yeah, not yet. Yeah Yeah, or you've asked like who are like who are the people in office?

42:18

Like who are the who's the is there a County Commissioner is there a treasurer here? Like what's their worldview? Like do they are they more left -leaning or the more right reading like what's their view on abortion or even you know?

42:28

Are there propositions coming out? Are you aware of the propositions that are gonna come out in Harriman, Utah?

42:34

There's always those prop 208 or prop 103 and there's you know, every every election the one thing the most annoying part of it honestly is when there's

42:43

Like 28 signs right on every single corner. I mean you talk about like environmental impact It's like people make a big deal about whatever.

42:49

It's like that's just over the top Oh, it's making it over with but you know, like who's the world be like I'm from Mesa, Arizona Who's on the board they're like who's the mayor of Mesa, Arizona like the county they live in Do I know who the sheriff is?

43:01

That's Dennis our father. He can tell you. Yeah But yeah, I think there's practical ways in which you can be involved at the very local level

43:11

Especially like as a Christian. I think this is Jimmy back to the docu -series. This is another thing just as well, too

43:18

I think we mentioned earlier just them sort of assuming like this neutrality Mm -hmm and somehow, you know

43:24

Christians are arbitrarily trying to interfere and trying to poke their worldview in and their ethic into the world the political sphere as if There's some sort of vague vacuum where that doesn't exist where they don't have that at all

43:39

As for example, like you look at everything that's going on with the Florida Don't don't say gay bill as if everything that they said that the family is doing you tell me that there's not

43:49

Other families on the other side, you know, you think about like the mob, you know, you think about the shows with the Godfather You know, there's always like these different like mob bosses back and forth.

43:58

You tell me that there aren't Legislators lobbyists whatever their version of the prayer breakfast are where they're saying no, we're going to fight this agenda

44:05

We're gonna we're gonna legislate our morality. Mm -hmm. No, so I think Jeff has said a lot of times too It's not about whether or not you legislate morality.

44:13

It's like which morality are that's you? Legislating yeah, and I think there's that's just a huge area that you could see the bias in this show is that it was just assuming that or they're projecting that these

44:27

Christian conservatives and everything that the Family was doing the C Street was doing is that they're the only ones who are projecting their morality in the politics where you need

44:35

To keep your morality out and somehow there's this vague Arbitrary nests that we can just be totally neutral, but you totally fine.

44:43

Yeah, and that's the Name of the gentleman and looking up his name again It's Jeff Charlotte is the one who wrote the books and kind of produced the whole show

44:52

He does he presents this whole thing where his entire according to Wikipedia his entire

44:58

Career is based around being inquisitive about religion, right? He's a religious writer.

45:03

He writes about religion from this supposedly neutral standpoint Right, and that is the that is the absurdity of the modern journalistic ethos that somehow

45:15

We can still be human beings and Have this absolute neutrality about things.

45:20

We really don't have an opinion about things. We are only here to present the truth and And you asked the question.

45:29

Well, what is truth? Right, right. How do you define it? Well, that's up to the individual Okay, but you just find it right you you just said that there is a version of truth here

45:38

And that means that you have an opinion about it. And that means you have a bias It means you're slanted towards something you are making street or individuals, but they're bad.

45:48

Yeah, right and so You know, it goes back to this to a comment you made earlier about legislating morality and what does that mean?

45:55

Right and it's a very important distinction You have the religious right saying we can make people moral through law

46:03

We can legislate that people be moral and that is false

46:08

You cannot use government to make people moral that is government taking again The role of Jesus Christ and to some degree the role of the church the church doesn't make people moral either, but the church is involved in the

46:24

The redemption that Jesus Christ brings in a way that civil government simply is not civil government is there for justice.

46:30

Mm -hmm And what is the standard justice God? So it does God have a controlling interest you bet right and that's what he said

46:37

Yeah, and but is this an area where we're going to make people moral right, right? And I don't even know if you caught this there was a moment in episode 5

46:47

There was somebody who was interviewed just for a little bit and he was talking about the dangers of the family

46:53

I always feel like When you talk about is basically he was

47:01

Trent this guy was trying to articulate that one of the reasons why this is dangerous is because they're assuming that there is a law that is above the government and He kind of talked about right in this dangerous way and I was like no that that's a huge Okay, you're assuming there's a law above the government

47:18

That should be different from the one you're complaining about if you're saying there shouldn't be a law you mean government and that's they like To play this double double -sided game and that's the other side when the left says well, you can't legislate morality

47:27

They're they're saying exactly that they're not saying you can't pick make people moral through law

47:33

They're saying something bigger. They're saying you law itself cannot be moral

47:38

It is all moral law just is right so you can't have there is no lot moral basis for legislation

47:45

Mmm, and that's what they mean by you can't legislate morally not that you can't make people moral by law

47:50

But that law itself cannot be moral. It's not moral. It's just it's all moral It just is right and so there's what they're claiming is there's no standard above law, but that very statement says though Well, there is some sort of standard here that we shouldn't be applying because you're saying that that's not it, right?

48:06

So if that's not it, then what is right? It's just like saying well there we can we can determine what's moral without creeds

48:13

Here's how creed creed creed creed? It's a great you're stating what's true and what's not true.

48:19

I'm sorry. That's a creed. It's the same with the standard We're gonna say that this isn't more. I love it.

48:24

I was sitting when I was still probably in high school I'd been thankfully my folks had steeped me in this and I had the opportunity to ask a man who was running for mayor in my town

48:35

What he believed about certain moral principles. This was at an event. He was to stand around so I go up the punk high school

48:40

Kid, you know and I'm gonna ask him questions, right? And I'm sure I was extremely irritating and and he was right to be somewhat irritated with me because I was a punk

48:49

But had that opportunity to ask him. He's like, well, you can't legislate morality and I asked him Well, then do you what about stop signs?

48:56

I mean, is it wrong to break the law? Is it wrong to go through a stop sign? Can I just blow right through that stop sign and it's not wrong

49:04

Well, you have a good point. He never really thought about that before either It's right or it's or it's not either it's wrong or it's not if we're gonna say it's wrong to break the law

49:13

Then then law is inescapably moral. That's a statement of morality and it's whose morality are we talking about here?

49:20

That's really what it is. When we say it's sleight of hand. That's what we're doing and all of its sleight of hand where we say

49:26

Oh, well, there's not morality. Whatever it is. It should be my morality, right? Well, it's interesting too when you just look at the pulse of the conversation in regards to morality being legislated every single aspect of 2020 when it came to the role of government and there and all the polarization

49:41

Every one of them was a question of morality, you know, everything from you know, the George Floyd riots people were saying no justice

49:48

No peace and put and everyone who is a politician regardless of where you stood was like something needs to be done

49:54

There has to be justice served. There's something that has to be done. That's right So that was that was a question of what what sort of morality are we going to legislate to deal with this injustice?

50:03

all the kovat regardless of how you feel about in the mass mandates the vaccine mandates whether the the role the efficacy of the of the

50:12

Lockdowns like all of these things were a question of morality both from the people who said no need to have freedom we need to be able to run our business or other people say no if you if you have your personal freedoms you're dealing at The expense of other people's health and you might kill people if you have your business open that's in moral

50:27

So we need to have the government come in and legislate this particular morality this particular law And so you like it's inescapable, you know everything from you know

50:36

People's outrage when remember when Trump went outside that one church and he was like holding up the Bible Yeah, so people were outraged at that I mean people saying well, he's sort of legislating this morality holding up the

50:47

Bible But they are appealing to their own morality to say that it's immoral. So the idea that somehow

50:54

There's this strange arbitrary vacuum where everyone can equally stand in where everything is a moral is non -existent

51:02

Right, you can't even it's nonsense. It's it's a statement that People who you know philosophers or people who study the system of thought itself would say that is a statement without meaning

51:14

It's nonsensical. It has no meaning because it can't you can't say that that's like saying, you know

51:21

What is the sound of one hound one hand clapping, right? It's a nonsensical question. It is without meaning.

51:27

It's a devoid of meaning And and that becomes a thing in and of itself well, what if we can create this whole world of just nonsensical statements, right the the the

51:38

It's nirvana, right and at some level you reach nirvana where it's like where you just don't exist That's what that's what they're trying to propose.

51:46

But that's so easily exploited by people who want to push a Non -mainstream idea and it's funny because people typically forget to think about the punishment for breaking law

51:57

So there's people who make law. Let's say the law is not law. That's From biblical scripture can't be derived from the actual true law giver.

52:07

Well, so if it's an arbitrary law There will be a punishment therefore for breaking that arbitrary law, but the consequence actually doesn't come from God It comes from man.

52:18

So it's man putting himself in the place of God and saying this is the punishment for breaking our law

52:23

So if we think about things in terms of George George Floyd, well, the answer wasn't more policy

52:29

The answer was actually scripture in the gospel in the situation because the policy is a band -aid, right?

52:35

That doesn't actually fix the situation That happened it's more of a heart issue because I think a good moral in just society would be run by Self -governing individuals because we forget that the first form of government that God gives is

52:49

Self -government, but only self -governing individuals actually care about the moral injustice that comes from God So what we see is we see a state like the

52:59

United States of America where we do not have self -governing individuals anymore Like that's gone

53:04

We don't we don't have that at the moment and what we have is a state that Educates the people to not actually be educated on how to make a change and how to be

53:15

Self -governing I find that to be very interesting and that's something that we should be very worried about for our future

53:22

The state tends when they have a position of power that they shouldn't hold like educating your children

53:28

They tend to create a type of individual that they want to be a cog in the wheel So we have all of these people growing from public state education from let's say boomers and on Going back to the insurrection how they don't know how to make an actual change in the government, right?

53:44

So what they do then is they just do what they were taught to Emotionally rage in the darkest of dark nights in our atheistic society that we have now making no change whatsoever

53:55

When the gospel is the answer when God is the one who dictates justice You don't want to break his law man's law in breaking arbitrary law, that's

54:05

But God's law, that's that's a scary thing to be breaking Yeah And as much as they tried to you know Make Trump in this oof scary messianic figure and all that I think the biggest thing that people are kind of losing when you talk about the big picture and mean like Francis Schaeffer And one of my favorite talks you can look this up on YouTube called a

54:22

Christian manifesto and he would always say that people always look at People always look at these different issues and you know, they have the role even like right now the role of what's going on in,

54:32

Florida the the don't say gay laws are calling it or you know, the different aspects of Socialism or you know, just all these different areas of morality the issue of abortion, right?

54:44

And they're looking at all these different moral issues in part Separately from each other rather than one bars looking at as far as a whole goes and ultimately

54:54

What Schaeffer described is that you're looking at ultimately a worldview between Really the biblical worldview where you have a true transcendent

55:04

Lawgiver who stands above all men and says this is the way which you must abide

55:09

Versus you have secular humanism, which says that man is the final measure of all things and I find it very interesting

55:16

That you know people don't as a whole in our society. They don't want a God who is

55:23

Sovereign all -knowing all -powerful Omnipotent has a say in your lives get to tell you what to do and what not to do and they reject that God But all of a sudden they get surprised when they get when they when it gets replaced with a state that is

55:37

Like honestly every aspect of me look at all the attributes of God The state encompasses all of those or they seek to encompass that and our government was made with limitations on that So I think that's a big that's really

55:49

When you look at the big picture that you have to understand in the world of politics This is not pro -democrat and a pro -republican regardless You know people listen all over the world to our podcast like this applies towards every country in every nation and every civil magistrate where you can apply this as a

56:05

Christian because ultimately people are made in the image of God and We deal with what we're dealing with in Genesis 1

56:11

We want it to be like God's knowing good and evil and we're trying to do that in many ways apart

56:18

From having a true encompassing worldview that gives us the ability to have government in its proper place in a way in a way

56:26

Which we can fully love our neighbor as we love ourselves But also live in such a way that gives glory and honor to God rather than ourselves in the long term

56:33

So, I don't know. Those are my those are kind of like my wrapping thoughts What are some of your thoughts here that as far as this whole encompassing discussion?

56:40

Like what are some final thoughts you got on this? It's so very important to take a step back

56:45

From the entire Presentation of political reality that's given us through either

56:51

Fox News or even Daily Wire or wherever you want to go and to say Am I just going to open my mind and have everything poured in or am

57:02

I going to? Self -consciously Intentionally pick a standard and then weigh things by it

57:11

To be a Christian means to take Christ himself as Represented in the

57:16

Logos. There's a reason why we're told where Christ is called the Logos the word We are given the word in the 66 books of the

57:26

Bible and told This is the standard by which we judge things by which we determine whether or not this is a good idea or a bad idea

57:36

All scriptures God breathed and useful for training for instruction For correction, and I believe that training says training in righteousness now that I'm quoting it incorrectly

57:46

But these this is this is how we know that that is the standard for truth itself and so it sounds trite to say that look you can bring it back to the basics of Understanding that the

58:00

Word of God is the standard for all of life and practice and all of faith and practice But that's what it comes down to And once you have that grounding then you're able to say oh, well, first of all, we do have a way of Determining whether or not that it's a good idea or a bad idea.

58:17

And second we have this Huge body of revelation and truth that tells us it really is.

58:24

Okay, you're it's going to be okay It's the end of the world isn't the end of the world

58:30

We talked about the darkest day in human history, right? Beginning of World War one Vietnam, you know crash in 1939, you know, whatever it might be right dark.

58:40

This is a dark dark day January 6th. Yeah, January 6th There was a dark day in history.

58:45

Yeah, it's when Christ died Darkest point in human history. Yeah, also the greatest point in history

58:50

Wow, that's kind of the point and God is in the business of saying oh you think it's really bad

58:56

It's not there's more to the story. You don't understand. You don't you don't comprehend what's going on here

59:02

You think that it's this and it's not that's just on the surface. And so read

59:08

Corrie ten Boom hmm read Eric little read

59:17

Fox's Book of Martyrs read about the Scottish Covenanters Read about the early

59:23

Christians as they died in the in the Coliseum, right? read about Oliver Cromwell read about America's Founding Fathers read about John Calvin read about John Wycliffe read

59:36

John John who's Read William Tyndale dig into history and see how do you in your time serve

59:46

God and participate in the glory and the There there is glory to be had and tend to be cast at the feet of Christ And that is the most glorious thing to do.

59:57

What does a man do? What does? Ecclesiastes tell us this is your lot in life it's it's saying exactly that do what you were put on this earth to do and glory in it and Recognize that the worst thing you can possibly imagine

01:00:10

How about having your family? Torn apart having your father shipped off to a prison camp where he dies watching your sister die before you and horrible squalor

01:00:18

Being at the camps where these are not just internment camps. The Jews are being killed in front of you at some of these camps and having to undergo

01:00:28

Some of the worst human experience possible in torture and Horrible things all because you did the right thing and protected innocent people and that's

01:00:37

Corrie ten boom Wow, and what was her response to that? Praise God glorified

01:00:43

God Right before her sister Betsy died They were housed in this

01:00:50

Barracks that was infested with fleas and there were not all of them were that way this was the flea barracks and they got put in there and Betsy Betsy ten boom was

01:01:03

Basically saying we have to play praise God for the fleas and Corrie was like I can't I cannot find a way to praise

01:01:09

God for the fleas and Yet it turns out they were able to hold Bible studies there and their

01:01:14

Bible was not Confiscated and they were not broken in on because the guards wouldn't come in there to get the fleas They didn't want to become infested with fleas.

01:01:22

And so they basically had free run of the place and finally Corrie had to admit to Betsy. You're right.

01:01:28

You have to have to praise God for the fleas and shortly after that Betsy is taken to the hospital into the infirmary there and perishes of the diseases that Maybe were passed on by the fleas.

01:01:38

I don't know but they certainly were part of her captivity and and that was that's That's how they part and Beth and Corrie could praise

01:01:47

God for the rest of her life and Could testify to the the incredible power of God and be thankful for her life and have enjoyed and and be so So blessed and so happy Through all of that.

01:02:01

Okay, that's because there are things that you cannot imagine that are benefits from going through hardship

01:02:08

God himself puts himself through hardship that he does not have to he does not have to put up with us

01:02:14

Yeah He does not he did not have to create a world in which we would be able to sin and he would have to send

01:02:19

That he would choose to send his own son to die and to suffer separation from him Talk about suffering we have no concept

01:02:26

Think about how stressful it would be to be aware of every single thing Every human being is doing all at the same time through all of Earth history and experiencing outside time

01:02:37

Okay, talk about maxing out and and you think your neighbor drives you nuts This is what

01:02:43

God does and he does it on purpose to himself now, how do we sit here and say yeah Oh suffering is not worth it. I don't like it. I don't want to do that.

01:02:48

Okay, that's the deepest darkest fear That's at the bottom of people's hearts When we have to do something about politics and we just it just eats us alive because we're afraid to suffer

01:02:59

Well, please stop being afraid to suffer if God decides that you'll suffer then He will give you the grace

01:03:07

Casper ten boom is one of my heroes And When Corey asked him

01:03:14

How will we go through this? How do we go through difficult things or how do I deal with heavy knowledge? He said

01:03:20

Corey when we travel together When do I give you your ticket She's right before I need it

01:03:27

And then he asked her and what kind of a father would I be if when we were traveling? I gave you this suitcase and made you carry the suitcase

01:03:38

I Would be a terrible father for burdening you with that. Mm -hmm and You don't have to worry about whether or not we're gonna get there on time or whether or not

01:03:45

I'm gonna have you're gonna have Your ticket I will give you your ticket hmm

01:03:54

That stood her in good stead as they were separated as they had to go through all the horrible and unbelievable things

01:03:59

This is in our time, right? We can relate to that. It was only 75 80 years ago

01:04:06

How do you so how do you do that you go through it you work through it and you recognize that That Jesus Christ is still

01:04:13

Jesus Christ that life is still Good because Christ is good and turns these curses into blessings

01:04:21

So do not fear persecution If that if that is what's coming if we're afraid of losing our freedom because we don't want to go through the difficulties

01:04:29

That's not why we fight we don't fight for freedom because we're afraid to lose it We fight for freedom because we're commanded to and because that glorifies

01:04:37

God and because we are better able to serve God and to accomplish things when we do have freedom

01:04:43

But sometimes he does he brings captivity. Sometimes he brings loss of freedom. Why because we are able to serve him through that too

01:04:51

This is that's the reality. So how do you how do you work in politics? Serve God, that's what it's about.

01:04:58

Simply serve God. Hmm. I Don't know if there's I think I think you it's yeah,

01:05:04

I think we could end it on that note And yeah, thank you so much for that. And I think for me, it's just Yeah In many ways you think about you know

01:05:13

Everything that happened in 2020 and we were headed out now that there is this like fear They're like, oh I want to avoid suffering

01:05:18

I don't want to you know There might be a food shortage applies if no other Christian has ever dealt with Supplies chain issues like through the entirety of the last 2 ,000 years of history

01:05:28

We're missing out on and look you miss out your human experience is is missing out on something, right?

01:05:34

That is what it is to be human. You're gonna miss out. What are we missing out on? We're missing out on seeing God provide in the moment

01:05:41

We miss out on that so much as humans because Americans because look you you don't have to starve here

01:05:47

No one does okay. There is so much plenty and so much here that that is there hunger? Yes. Do we have to fight?

01:05:52

I'm not saying there aren't social ills but not like not like the rest of the world not like most of him history

01:05:58

Yeah, and so to recognize that that there is blessing there that you can do that And now

01:06:05

I don't want I don't want to be clear. I'm not being fatalistic. I actually believe that there will be An opportunity at least for national redemption.

01:06:14

I believe that that is still there That's why I do what I do, but it's not you know, if that does that doesn't happen.

01:06:20

Am I destroyed? No, of course not. This is what God commanded me to do. This is what God called me to do What else am

01:06:26

I gonna do? Why on earth would I go do something else? Why would I give up? Why would I not continue to fight?

01:06:31

Why would I why on earth? This is what this is God's calling Yeah, so do it but don't don't fear one or the other just just do it

01:06:39

Yeah, and God's always in them as we wrap up here mean God's always in the midst of suffering And also, it's always amazing to see like how he provides to in fact, um, you know reminds me of the film 1917

01:06:50

Which in many ways? Oh my goodness. I mean while Sam Mendes is not a Christian I think that film in so many ways articulates the

01:06:59

Christian worldview because there are no good stories outside it And so I think

01:07:06

Amazon could probably learn a thing or two from that so that's a whole nother conversation But oh they are learning They may not recognize it yeah, but I think one of my favorite scenes

01:07:18

And a man it just gives me goosebumps. Just thinking about it was and if you haven't seen the movie by now one

01:07:23

I'm sorry, we're gonna spoil something. So there is a moment where this soldier is

01:07:31

In this city that's been police shelled and had been rocketed You don't the city has been destroyed and he ends up running away, you know escaping into this little like small little compartment of the city and ends up face -to -face with a young mom an infant child and This baby is hungry and he goes wait a second

01:07:50

Like I like how we're gonna feed I can't give him like my regular rations This baby needs food and all of a sudden he just remembers he like he puts his hand on his canteen

01:07:59

Which he remembers from earlier. He was at this little barn compartment He filled this canteen full of milk

01:08:06

But in the midst of that he was distracted filling up this canteen when his other soldier companion was bayoneted and was killed and He watched him die and that scene is horrific

01:08:16

But in the midst of that difficulty Like in sovereignly he filled up this canteen with milk

01:08:22

Which ends up being a provision for this woman later on now while the film doesn't indicate

01:08:28

You know what this woman's worldview was like what if she was just praying for God's provision and all of a sudden this canteen

01:08:34

The soldier with a canteen full of milk for this baby like later on is provided so in a sense like you see

01:08:41

God's provision like in the midst of Suffering and then you know, the reality is that we are we are in a broken and fallen sin -cursed world it's gonna be like that until Christ returns and You know, we need yeah,

01:08:56

I agree We have to be able to learn to suffer well But also in the midst of difficulty and suffering and that's where we're headed towards Like we're gonna there's gonna be areas in which you're gonna see

01:09:04

God show up and God provide in Ways that wouldn't be possible if we had every single thing every single comfort that we need.

01:09:12

It's beautiful It reminds me of the upper room discourse when Jesus is talking to his disciples He says so many beautiful brilliant things there.

01:09:20

He talks about Suffering you will suffer you will be hated. These are promises from God But he also says

01:09:25

I ask that you not take them from this world But keep them from the evil one and that's

01:09:31

God's providence, right? And that's the beauty of seeing the gospel throughout any form of suffering is that you don't fall prey to the evil one

01:09:39

But God will keep you for yourself through matter what you go through Like that's a beautiful thing.

01:09:45

God knows the past and why it happened, right? And it's for our good and for his glory.

01:09:51

Yep. Yeah, and when it seems trite we say well I don't like suffering and so we're saying it's trite that it's a good thing

01:09:56

No, that's not the point whether we like it or or not is not the point.

01:10:02

God doesn't say he likes suffering It's not that God is putting us through suffering for pleasure for that is his like entertainment or something, right?

01:10:11

No, God is choosing to put himself through suffering He is God He actually gets to choose all of this and he chooses to suffer through us and he tells us in so many different ways

01:10:22

That we're very vexing that it is not fun To sit around and have all of this just piped.

01:10:30

I mean, it's he's aware of all of it all the time Wow hmm, and so to to me, it's that was quite the revelation when

01:10:39

I realized that This is not some kind of trite. Well, yeah, you don't like it, but there's good here. Ultimately there's like this ultimate good that somehow you can't comprehend but that you have to accept or even worse the you know, the the

01:10:51

God hating perspective that says that God is just entertained by all of our suffering, right?

01:10:57

Right that that's what it means by there's good No, no No God is putting himself through it and it's more suffering than any of the rest of us could it's not that we can't imagine it's

01:11:05

That you couldn't possibly even experience it. You don't have the capacity You're here a human finite human being you can't be in connection

01:11:13

You can't be connected to that many sentient beings at once right God can and is all the time Wow.

01:11:19

Hmm, and so You just can't escape the fact that suffering there is value in suffering that you don't get anywhere else

01:11:26

It's not that somehow there's this ethereal. Well, it'll be good somehow No, it's that there is benefit there now

01:11:33

It's not and at the same time God says that this is not something that he enjoys that he appreciates that he puts people through Him, you know as some kind of Oh goody

01:11:42

This is no and so it's not something you pursue No, you you try not to that's that's there's nothing wrong with that But you don't sacrifice what you should be doing in order to avoid suffering you do what you're supposed to do and you can you let come what may and you participate in the glory of Doing your job

01:12:05

All right. Well great job on that note. Great job And I wish it is speaking a great job

01:12:12

You you've got a great job to do as you head off to do deal with your own C Street We got to talk afterwards about how we have to I don't we have to cash in and we'll pay with like Bitcoin Ethereum a cash app.

01:12:23

However, we're gonna get in I will figure it out So thank you so much for taking the time man.

01:12:28

I only respect Dogecoin. Oh, yeah, that's all I accept That's awesome. So That's great.

01:12:34

Maybe if Elon Musk like listens and he can kind of work range that transaction as well, too Since he is behind that so all that being said

01:12:40

Thank you so much Zack for taking the time to talk with us And if you guys have been blessed by this conversation if you have thoughts if you have agreements you have disagreements

01:12:48

Head to our social media. Let us know what you thought about this episode or give us a one -star view or five -star view

01:12:54

How do you feel about it? We're always trying to make interesting conversations. I definitely really enjoyed this

01:12:59

So all that being said, thank you all for listening in and we'll talk to you guys next time on cultists