Reformation Project

Alpha & Omega Ministries iconAlpha & Omega Ministries

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Covered a wide variety of topics, starting off with Matthew Vine’s “Reformation Project,” followed by Rome’s willingness to give folks like Biden and Pelosi the “sacrament,” despite their rejection of Rome’s teachings, shortly commented on Candida Moss’ new book (actually finished it on my ride today), and then looked at Michael Patton’s “non-essentials” list as well. Then we took some calls.

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line
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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed
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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation if you'd like to talk with dr.
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White call now at 602 973 4602 or toll -free across the
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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is
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James White And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line. It is Thursday and We are already marching through the month of March we're gonna be a quarter of the way through the year and it feels like it just started because it did and The time passes by amazing things going on in the world thought we'd start off with Someone we spent a fair amount of time with a number of months ago
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You all recall we spent about five and a half hours Responding.
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Well, we spent four and a half hours. Let's let's be more accurate here because we played the entirety of his
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Presentation but the total was five and a half hours responding to Matthew vines a young homosexual who has recycled a large number of the standard
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Arguments found in homosexual literature and for some reason and I it's pretty obvious why
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His video was seen many many times and many many people like oh, that's wonderful And of course the media picked up on it and so on and so forth, even though there was nothing new nothing consistent and certainly nothing compelling from a biblical perspective, but we know that our society is desperate to disbelieve and desperate for that kind of information so now the announcement of the launch of The Reformation Project Yes, March 19th 2013
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Christian Post reporter Stoyan Zymov Writes Matthew vines a
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Harvard educated gay Christian. I don't think he finished his degree if I recall correctly, but Harvard educated gay
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Christian who sparked great deal of controversy in the church community last year with his in -depth analysis
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On why the Bible does not condemn homosexuality. Oh, man I wonder if these folks ever, you know
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Has launched a new leadership training conference aimed at teaching Christians how to lead LGBT friendly churches and communities in a
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Related news someone else has started another Reformation Project where people are gonna be trained and how to teach
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Christians how to lead Angry friendly churches and communities.
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There's the whole group of churches where Anger is now gonna be accepted and then you've got another group that will be doing the
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The adultery friendly churches and communities and the there there's a much smaller group
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And this is only Sunday schools, but the disobedient to parents friendly churches and communities movement
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Is limited to those under the age of 10? But they're gonna get kicked off too and that'll be great in a video announcing the project
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Vine says We're a major project will train connect and empower gay Christians and their allies to reform a church teaching a homosexuality from the ground up So this young man actually thinks that that very shallow
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One hour long emotionally laden Presentation is enough to actually
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Reform the church Which of course is a massive Misuse the term reform especially when we talk about the
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Reformation and what the Reformation was about and I can guarantee you that Those who understand the
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Reformation do not stand with with Matthew Vines in his Denial of the gospel and his perversion of the
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Bible. Of course, it will be at Asbury United Methodist Church in Kansas we understand where the United Methodist Church has been for a long time and In fact,
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I have another article here. Let me see if I pulled up real quick Yeah, let me see here
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Yeah in a statement post on the front page of their website officials at the Green Street United Methodist Church Said that they ask other churches to join in the movement to quote refuse to sign any state marriage licenses
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Until this right is granted to same -sex couples The statement added because United Methodist Church prohibits its pastors from conducting same -sex weddings
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Excluding gay and lesbian couples from the Holy Sacrament of marriage The Leadership Council has asked the pastor to refrain from conducting wedding ceremonies in our sanctuary for straight couples
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Until the nomination lifts its ban for same -sex couples. And so you have very clearly amongst the
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United Methodists a very strong cadre of individuals who Could never defend this in debate, of course, but are absolutely committed to the overthrow of biblical morals and ethics and Jesus teaching on the subject of marriage
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And they call themselves Christians. Yes. I wonder if he chose the term Reformation as he somehow sees himself
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Standing before all of us here. I stand I can do no other something.
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I don't know. I wonder if that's The picture he's standing in front of stained -glass window, you know looking all prim and proper holding a
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Bible open and and all that stuff and and We can listen to the beginning of his announcement if you'd like It's it's
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It strikes me that it partakes of what we hear all the time anymore and that is you have a willing
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Press and you have a willing Educational system that both are
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I have to get completely abandoned their duties of Fairness and actually seeking for truth and things like that we all know the vast majority of the press is just nothing more than the the talking heads for for Progressive movements whatever
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I'll call it today also known as socialism communism or anything else and we also know rather obviously that The educational the higher criticism and higher educational systems
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Simply do not allow for almost any kind of Meaningful response dialogue debate anything like that at all and So just listen to what he says here
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At the beginning I can play the whole thing because it ends up being a fundraiser then they they need a hundred thousand dollars
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To put together this first conference this year to by the end of decade go around the world and reform the church all the rest
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Of stuff, but here's here's Matthew Vines. Hi. My name is Matthew Vines Last year I posted a video on YouTube of an hour -long speech that I gave at a church here in Wichita, Kansas about the
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Bible and homosexuality Being gay is not a sin Making the case that scripture is not anti -gay and that Christians should support their lesbian gay
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Bisexual and transgender brothers and sisters since then the video has been seen nearly half a million times and the responses to it have been
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Extraordinary and deeply encouraging. It was featured in the New York Times The BBC World Service and the
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Christian Post and now I'm writing a book to help its message reach an even wider audience
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I'm so grateful to everyone who's offered me your support so far And I'm humbled by the many messages of changed hearts and minds that I've received
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But for every story of change and acceptance There are others of ongoing struggle rejection and isolation
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For all the positive changes that we've seen there's still so much left to do
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That's why I'm excited today to announce the Reformation Project a
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Bible based Nonprofit organization that I'm launching to train. Yeah, it's Bible based in other words
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It's just gonna be like we've heard a thousand times before well, it's you know, it's the message of love It's the message of love don't worry about the details of those texts and don't worry about the fact that That there have been lots of homosexuals that recognize that the arguments that I use there really don't wash
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But it's just it's just love man. It's just love. We got to be it's gotta love No No, I'm not love for God.
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I love for his truth. I love for the gospel. I love for the cross I love for God's law. No, no, it's love of me.
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Come on. You gotta be with it. That's what love is Love is a human thing. It's it's what I feel.
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It's all about me That's what love is in our world Today and it's and it's that well on the
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On the Roman Catholic front and I'm gonna open the doors the door. I've got open the doors up open the doors up Probably cause you to start sneezing and stuff like that Certainly causing my son to start sneezing it's terrible
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But um, and I'll open the phones up at the same time. We open the doors up and the windows all at the same time and our minds
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Whatever it might be Eight seven seven. I just just yeah, I just open the windows the line eight seven.
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Don't even go there Don't even know eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one
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I I I saw this Yesterday oh man,
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I should have queued this up. Did you see that video? I was talking about this morning in in Twitter. Oh Man Somebody in channel grab that grab that video, please someone in channel grab the
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URL to the YouTube video that we were Absolutely cackling about this morning on on Twitter.
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It was It it honestly, it was first time that I had heard someone make
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Gail Ripplinger look like she made sense. Oh Yeah. Oh, yeah I mean there are some people out there these days on YouTube that make
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Gail Ripplinger look like she's an absolute amateur When it comes to Wow, I come in the first thing
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I get in the channel first thing and some of our non US folks
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Are are yammering about this this thing and I Took that it's 15 minutes long
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And so if you don't call today I'm gonna play the whole thing That's that is a that is an absolute threat.
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Let me tell you something because Wow There Brian got it. I think
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Brian got it Let me oh the problem is it's not it's not on the one that I can play
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Here and How do I do this mean you're meaning you're me anyway, it's a
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Maybe I'll have to do it during the break or something like that because To some house going. Oh, please someone call
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Hear that on you have to move the plug over to the other other unit to play it, but it's a it's a 15 minute long example of how you can
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Absolutely, I mean The I don't even know how to describe it.
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I do not even know how to describe it Other than this woman is is also afraid of the 322 p .m
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There's something about 322 p .m. I didn't get all that stuff. But Wow, it was absolutely incredible To listen to this thing.
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It is it is amazing, but I guess you didn't see it You it the URLs are you're gonna have to you're gonna have to grab it and watch it because it's just it's required
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Yes, yes The last few moments last few moments of it
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I Made my poor daughter listen to the whole thing. It's just keep waiting. Keep keep waiting.
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Keep wait Don't stick in there. Hang on. Hang on and it's like the last 30 seconds
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It's just like I've got this sound down on that if you want to just move it over to the other machine No If we don't if we don't get calls,
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I will because it I will but I'd like to be a little bit more Serious than that though once in a while.
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It's fun to do something, but no he's calling I know that but we I've got other things to talk about.
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Well, we'll see. We'll see if it goes. Anyways, I'm not sure why this this Brought this up to my thinking but I was looking at an article and It just struck me oh great now the now the thing crashes on me
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Shockwave flash isn't responding. That's nice we hear all the time about the
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The infallible Roman Catholic Church. I was working on an article yesterday. I'm not done with it yet. Maybe I'll get done tonight
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I don't know if I'm going out of town this weekend and Okay kill pages, okay, we'll try it again and I Worked on an article in response to Tim Staples the very same
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Tim Staples that do you remember? You really witness to the debate that we had here on the dividing line with Tim Staples on purgatory
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Do you remember that you actually saw it? There's there's now people questioning whether that actually exists at least everyone at Catholic answers
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Seems to be questioning whether it actually exists because they've never said a word about it for three years They never said a word about that.
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Well, um, I make it after you mentioned it last week That's right. I wouldn't found the file.
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Uh -huh, and then I for anybody who can't find it that maybe you know Walking around with their hand over their eyes.
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Yep. Mm -hmm. I put it right there on the top of the store Yeah, daddy. I'm in org pain.
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We've provided that to mr. Staples too. Yeah, we did because that's our custom. Yes, we did that That's just the way we do things.
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Yeah, but for some reason if you if you listen to if you listen to Catholic answers live you
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Wouldn't know anything about this particular debate But anyway, I was writing a response.
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He actually mentioned me and it's funny He quoted from answers to Catholic claims. Remember that book
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You you saw that I did see that I found that very entertaining a book a book You know what? We need to find a copy of that and PDF that oh,
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I've got it. I've got it I'm already I'm already writing the I've already know I mean the whole book.
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Oh, we should PDF it and put it up on the website That's true, I might still well
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Can you imagine how old the files that would be I we'd have to scan it and and yeah, we can scan it
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Yeah, we can do it find a volunteer on here like to sit there and do their thing. Yeah Anyway, yeah, we could do that I was looking at an article which in the
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US News is is crashing my shockwave flash Repeatedly, even though I've refreshed it a number of times now
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It's a picture of Joe Biden and his sister Valerie bite his history his sister
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Valerie Biden shaking hands with the new Pope After the papal installation mass the
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Vatican on March 19th 2013 now The the text reads vice president
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Joe Biden and House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi received communion During a mass marking the installation of Pope Francis in Rome Tuesday Setting off a storm of controversy about whether they should have been denied communion because of their pro -choice stand on abortion
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Now It's interesting because it's my understanding
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That when he was in Argentina and it says Pope Francis when he was
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Archbishop of Buenos Aires in 2007 Opposed giving communion to politicians who support abortion rights
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But Here you've got and I even had P. I even had a guy on Twitter.
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I had a guy on Twitter Actually respond. Well, maybe the
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Italian bishops didn't know who they were Yeah, right. I'm sure that's exactly what it was.
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We all know who this guy from America is We have no idea who's attending this thing Right.
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Mm -hmm. Sure. I believe that I mean you can find people on Rodeo Drive that don't know who Joe Biden is that's you know, that's that's certainly understandable, but and the fact the matter is
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Rome knows that Biden and Pelosi Flaunt Their teachings and oppose their teachings and Promote abortion and partial birth abortion and all the rest of this stuff
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But they don't have the courage of their convictions. Let's just face it folks. They don't have the courage of their convictions and It's really really really really hard To take the claims overly seriously this is the infallible leader of the church and he's a vicar of Christ on earth and he's the
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Holy Father and all the rest of this stuff and We've taught this consistently and these people reject it and we don't do a stinking thing about it and the thing that really made it interesting to me as I Mentioned last week that last week sometime.
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I read through Candida Moss's first book on persecution. I got about 60 % of the way through the new book the myth of Christian persecution today and I'll try to finish it up as well as quick as I can.
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I'm traveling this weekend so I probably get to it as quickly as I would have normally but anyway, and Here is you know, here is this young Ultra -liberal professor of New Testament at Notre Dame I thought that was a
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Roman Catholic institution at least a bottle was maybe it's not anymore. I don't know The fact the matter is you have all sorts of Catholic institutions of higher learning and they are infested
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With people who don't believe anything the church teaches and does the church do anything about it?
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Let me tell you something folks Joe Biden ain't having the
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Lord's Supper at my church Okay ain't happening and if he if he also decided to become a reformed
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Baptist, let me tell you something we would Explain to him what the teachings of the
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Bible are on these issues. And if he would not repent Well, he wouldn't be a part of the fellowship and wouldn't be partaking in Lord's Supper and things like that He'd be welcome to sit there and listen to the
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Word of God being preached But he's not gonna partake in the life of the church, but hey
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Joe Biden Nancy Pelosi raised millions and millions of dollars to oppose the culture of life and promote the culture of death and They are more than welcome more than welcome and it just makes you go
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You know Y 'all need to clean up your own house before you start talking to everybody else. Maybe that's it's a problem
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You know you want and listening to these, you know, the the Gary Bauer thing. I read last time, you know
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Well, it's Roman Catholics that give us the intellectual arguments and the Protestants give us the youthful people. Oh, really?
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If they really took those arguments seriously, don't you think he'd be doing something about these things but doesn't seem so Now I understand there are there are
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Roman Catholics that were angry that Very angry that that took place and I understand that But they're in charge.
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They're in charge so Anyway, I Can't see the phone thing right now because shockwave has completely gone
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Clearly on this unit and I'll probably have to like reset the whole thing here eventually
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But I still don't see anybody there. So I'm gonna talk about one area and if worse comes to worse
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I'll just move the sound thing over and we'll I'll scroll back and find that Have some have some fun on it
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Um Thank you to everyone who sent me a link to the
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Larry Hurtado mention of the Keith Small book this morning
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March 21st I Have had Keith's book since it came out, of course and No Keith Small and Have mentioned interestingly enough.
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We've been way ahead in the curve on this one Because I happen to mention that Sammy Ameri's book hunting for the
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Word of God starts off taking some really cheap shots at Keith Small so Actually the one who's a little bit behind the curve on this is
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Larry Hurtado, but that's fine. That's understandable. But there was an interesting
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Section on textual criticism New Testament and the Quran today about Keith Small's book textual criticism and Quran manuscripts
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Which is briefly referenced in in my book, which comes out hopefully very soon and That caused me to remember something
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I Flew to where did I fly to recently? That was fairly far away
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Huh no, no, no, it was it was I don't anyway,
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I was on a flight recently and I was reading a Hurtado article.
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It is entitled the early New Testament Papyri a survey of their significance. This is in.
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Oh, well, here's my Wasn't a long flight that's why okay.
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Anyways, here's my ticket which I frequently use as a bookmark anyway and This isn't a book papyrology and exegesis
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From more Psybeck. It's actually most of the articles in here are in German. Just a couple are in in English and on page 13
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I just want to read the section for you for those of you who have not been listening to or care a whole lot about the interaction we've had over well years literally with Bart Ehrman and the related things
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This isn't gonna make a whole lot of sense to you, but this is one of the most important Things you're gonna hear in a while in regards to the defense of the text of the
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New Testament And so tune in for just a moment here This is from page 13 one further observation.
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Well, you know what? I'm gonna reach over here and I'm going to grab my Reading glasses here.
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I'm putting on the famous NCIS, New York Reading glasses one further observation about the effects of early
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New Testament papyri Essentially the variants in them are those that we already knew from later witnesses most often in later
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Greek witnesses sometimes only in the Latin or Coptic versions Moreover, we do not find in the early papyri the larger variants that reflect a major change in the text
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That is the pericope of the adulterous woman, the long ending of Mark or the major additions in the
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Codex Beze text of Acts. I highlight two net effects of these data First they confirmed the earlier view that the great majority of textual variants emerged very early likely in the 2nd century but second it appears and this is this is what you need to hear because Ehrman will make the first statement
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But it won't make the second statement you're about to hear But second it appears that the earliest state of the text of the
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New Testament writings was no more diverse Than what we have in later witnesses the
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Virgin the versions and the major Greek codices of the 4th to 6th centuries and that perhaps
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Significant text variation continued or achieved success in the manuscript tradition well beyond the earliest period
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So it is now increasingly dubious to cling to the notion sometimes asserted in the past That the 2nd century and this is this is
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Ehrman all over the place But Hurtado is saying Ehrman's old -school now here
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Keep that in mind So it is now increasingly dubious to cling to the notion sometimes asserted in the past the 2nd century was a period of quote wild End quote textual variation far greater than what we see in the 4th century and thereafter
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I reiterate the observation that the early papyri certainly attest varying levels of fluidity in the New Testament text and a readiness among some
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Christians to improve the text in various ways that is stylistic changes harmonizations, etc But these manuscripts do not on the whole reflect a careless or wild transmission attitude and process so if you're sitting in a
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New Testament class Almost anywhere and what you're hearing from your professor as well.
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We know that that 2nd century manuscripts have this wild this free wild and it must have been worse in the first So we have no idea what the original originally said
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That is not what the evidence points to that is not What the evidence points to and the vast majority of those folks teaching those places don't really don't care about what you're saying
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Anyways, um Well, I was about to look at this but since the calls are coming in well
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We'll go ahead and see if we can't sneak this one in. Let's talk with Joshua hi,
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Joshua. Hello, Joshua. Hello.
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Hello. Yes, sir. Hello Must be having trouble getting hold of Joshua, so I'll put him back on hold see if you can find him what?
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Here is what the question was about was this second issue I was actually gonna look at and That is
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Michael Patton posted a Article on his blog and this would be on March 19th 8 issues that do not make or break
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Christianity And as he says I realize the post such as these have the potential create quite a bit of heat and get one in a
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Lot of trouble That's not the first time he's done that as well I don't really want to be seen as one who's always trying to unsettle things
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I like to be settled in a very pastoral way. I like to settle others However in Christianity both for our personal faith and for our public witness
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We need to speak with the emphasis necessary to carry our faith Truly it is my argument that often far too often conservative
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Christians become identified with issues that while important do not make or break our faith
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This creates extremely volatile situations from a human perspective as believers faith ends up having a foundation which consists of one of these non -foundational issues
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When and if these issues are significantly challenged our faith becomes unstable I have seen too many people walk away from the faith through their trust in some non -essential issue coming unglued
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So these are non -essential issues to Michael Patton What does that mean
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What does that mean he actually said that he had ten issues, but he only had room for eight I sort of wonder what the other two are if by Non -essential we are saying that They are not constitutive of the gospel itself
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Then I can understand at least some of the concern But it seems to me that especially on at least two of these issues maybe more
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We are talking about how we can even know what the gospel itself is and it seems to me that it's it's inevitable that If you go down this this road
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That Michael Patton has has is walking that you're gonna be end up limited to the mere
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Christianity form of apologetics and mere Christianity form of Christianity Where you really can't answer the big questions you can't you can say well
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You know the important things the death barrel resurrection of Jesus Christ We can't really tell you much more about that.
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We really can't tell you why that is I've got personal feelings about I've got traditions about it
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I personally happen to think it's this way, but I really can't tell you that that's really a part of the the
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Christian faith So for example he starts off with young earth creationism and He only gives it what did one two three four sentences, so not exactly much of a
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Discussion here Other than he says the problem comes When those who hold this view teach that to deny a literal six -day creation is to deny the gospel or close to it
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He says there is simply no sustainable reason to believe that one's interpretation about the early chapters of Genesis determines his or her status before God well okay,
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I don't recall in first Corinthians chapter 15 a Discussion of young earth creationism as being one of the things delivered etc etc
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But when we say something is not a part of the gospel that is not the same thing as to say that it is unimportant or that it cannot have far -reaching ramification because If a person is going to say well,
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I'm an old earth creationist. Okay. All right. Why that's what I just want to know why? Well, I'm I just think that the evidence is is overwhelming that that we have to hold that view
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Well, do you think the evidence is overwhelming that there is an evolutionary process a neo -darwinian micromutational evolutionary process unguided undirected real real real darwinianism not the
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Foo -foo religious silliness that is prevalent out there, which I just I'm sorry.
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I can't even begin to Go there Why is that and how do you deal
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I just had a nice pop in the ears there And now I'm getting sounds and all sorts of other things there
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Don't know what's going on Now, I don't know what I was talking about What was I was talking about young earth creationism or something before my headphones went bananas on me?
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Did it did it did do do do do that's a musical interlude here for just a moment when we're when you're talking about well, for example
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Matthew 19 We were just talking about Matthew vines and remember when I respond to Matthew vines, how did
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I respond to Matthew vines? I went to math chapter 19 and In math chapter 19
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Jesus teaches on marriage and how does he do that? He takes those very chapters of the book of Genesis as the unquestionable revelation of God's intentions and purposes in this world
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That's what he does So if the method that you use to believe
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That the universe is billions of years old is well We can't take what the
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Bible says seriously in these areas. Where do you draw the line? Because is it not painfully obvious friends painfully obvious?
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that a large portion of What it used to be called mainstream
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Evangelicalism mainstream Protestant denominations have gone down that road and Where's Matthew vines doing all this stuff
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United Methodist Church? Isn't it painfully obvious that once you collapse on certain of these issues that there are other ramifications that come it seems so So I want to know why
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I want to know why then we have number two the authorship of the pastoral epistles Now It says
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I suppose the pastoral epistles are among the most controversial books in Bible respect of their authorship. I Don't think that's true at all.
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I Don't think that's true at all. I I Know it's very popular in Academia today to question their authorship, but when you actually dig into the why's the arguments are ridiculously weak
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Folks what we have in academia today in the vast majority of what I'm listening to in the Candida Moss book is incestuous scholarship
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It's liberal quotes liberal who quotes liberal that creates this this pile of alleged scholarship
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That's actually nothing more than circular reasoning. It's a it's a house of cards Remember remember the the guy
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I've mentioned a number of times my daughter ran into At Glendale Community College, it's dr. Carter.
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I mean this just this nasty anti -christian bigot just well just foul -mouthed And just just nasty
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Everything I heard him say he's he's just a Bart Ehrman clone type guy
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Absolutely, no Critical thought whatsoever in regards to whether Ehrman has any idea about whether he's right or wrong
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He's never he's ever analyzed the arguments. It's just well I heard somebody say it so I'm gonna repeat it critical scholarship today in the
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Academy is anything but critical in The ancient ancient in the original meaning of that term critical
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Someone in general just asked is George Knight the third good for pastor pistols. He most certainly is well certainly as strong robust arguments have been offered
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By excellent biblical scholars In regards these matters, and and I just I don't understand
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The mindset of people who go yeah, well, but you know you know if I held that view
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I might not be able to get into this place or that place or teach here or teach there and so So I I think and then and then
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William Berkeley author the daily Bible study series as far as I know still the best -selling commentary set of all time Did not accept
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Petrie and authorship of 2nd Peter Who cares William Barclay's a wild -eyed liberal
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I mean It's just a fact nobody said a lot of nice things
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I so I Would never direct anybody to him as a as a source for anything other than devotional thoughts
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He says while I disagree like Calvin I believe that Peter was behind the letter though. He did not directly write it well says that This did not in any way disqualify
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Barclay from being a Christian a committed servant of God Well, maybe But still not gonna recommend him, and I don't see how that's an argument.
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That's even semi -relevant in Any way shape or form number three The inerrancy of Scripture, and I will admit the number of us
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Who still stand upon this? Platform defend it as Absolutely vital to Christian apologetics our number is small
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Our number is small It is painfully obvious to me that most of the
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You know basic Christianity type guys and apologists
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Will say they believe in it, but it's it's sort of like a lot of people who teach in the Southern maps convention you know they sign the saying that says
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I'm not gonna teach against the Baptist faith and message, but we all know that their definition of inerrancy is incredibly weak incredibly weak and The simple question that I ask of those of you who are collapsing on the subject
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Are you collapsing the subject because you see so many other people collapsing the subject or you're collapsing the subject because you have
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Have finally racked up such a long list of Difficult passages that you've you've given in that's what
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I'd like to know Because for me While there are still some texts,
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I haven't finished completely working through I've worked through a lot of them and That has only greatly increased my
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Confidence in The inerrancy of Scripture and my question is if you know the the fundamental thing that he's gonna say at the end and Of course the comments are very disheartening, but He says
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I hope you understand the spirit of this post in the end my argument is that our focus should be on the person and work of Christ In essence if the resurrection of Christ happened
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Christianity is true if did not Christianity is not true This is why I call myself a resurrection apologist when
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I am defending my faith to myself to myself and others 99 % of time this is where I camp is not that these other issues are not important or worthy of debate and discussion
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It is not as if these are the issues don't have implications, which is what I'm saying However, none of them make or break our faith.
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Therefore. We should adjust our thinking and our witness accordingly How do you know about the resurrection? I mean,
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I don't buy this Very common, but I think incredibly silly argument that many people use it
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Well, you know we can we can address the resurrection without actually having to assume the Bible's Word of God we can just take these up there's just this collection of historical documents called the
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New Testament and You know, we don't have to say anything about whether inspire this there is historical documents and they tell us this a bunch of disparate
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Uninspired historical documents Can not give you
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The certainty and assurance of The apostolic preaching of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
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It can't be done Can't be done. So how do you know about the resurrection if you do not have and It just seems that what this group of apologists saying is we cannot have the confidence that the
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Apostles had we can't Those days are gone yeah, I know they stood there in front and they stood the
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Areopagus and they they proclaimed the absolute certainty of the of The resurrection the judgment to come and all the rest of that stuff, but we just you know
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They may have known the gospel well enough for it to be part of the non -negotiables then but it's just Just not the case anymore
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Just not the case you have to wonder you just have to wonder number four really quickly here,
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I haven't even looked at the According to this there's no one on the phone. So I don't have to worry about I don't have any at all
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It's blank. Oh So I have to restart it. Oh Okay Yeah, it's it's behaving badly
41:28
But I have tested it at least when you bring them on the air They can at least hear you now now I got to work on the whole feed.
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Oh So something went poofy. Oh, it's it's very unhappy whatever number four whether the flood covered the entire earth
41:45
Well, okay, I mean that seems to be what Genesis says It seems to be seems to be pretty obvious, but I don't remember that in first Corinthians 15 either but The judgment and the promises certainly let's put it this way the author
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Genesis thought it did so I guess the idea is Are we wiser than than the authors and and that gets you back to inspiration?
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Uh, I didn't understand number five the character witness of Christians, huh? I Spoken about this before but it's important realize that Christianity is not dependent on the character witness of its followers
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Well, I'll be honest with you. I I've Really not even a question for me.
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I had Never ever ever suggested. Otherwise It's sort of like the
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Candida Moss book, by the way It seems like she's really smarting for something happened back in middle school for her where one of her teachers when she asked a question
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Why we believe Christianity is true, even though the Bible is filled with contradictions So I guess Candida Moss believe the
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Bible's filled contradictions when she was a middle schooler I don't think she's really changed her views at all from what
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I've read. But But she is teaching at Notre Dame which will just let the Roman Catholics answer that one.
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Anyway She was answered that since the
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Apostles died for it and that means it was true I've never bought that one either.
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I mean any critical approach to that I have often said that The willingness of the
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Apostles to die For their beliefs does not make their beliefs true
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What it demonstrates is that they believed what they believed to be true because there are
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Muslims that are willing to die for Muhammad and there's Mormons who are willing to die for Joseph Smith and no one
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I would hope Well, I know people do but no rationally thinking person is going to make the argument that Just because someone's willing to die for something that means it's automatically true and the amazing thing is
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Candida Moss spends most of her book tilting at windmills on stuff like that. Just like this number five I don't even get that one.
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Number six the inspiration of Scripture This is connected to inerrancy if it takes a step further just the sake of getting me in hotter water
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My statement is this the Bible's don't have to be inspired for Christianity to be true And my statement response to Michael Patton is the
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Bible has to be inspired if you don't know what Christianity is This one I don't even get it. I don't even I can't even begin to understand this one
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Why on earth do you follow Jesus if you don't follow his view on this one? I mean his views on this one are not even questionable are they
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Before you jump all over me think of it this way did God have to give us the Bible in order to be God of course not utterly irrelevant
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If he never gave us any written testimony of himself, he would still be God utterly irrelevant
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There is nothing that obligated God to this form of revelation or any form at all Christ could have come and lived a perfect life
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Gained representation down the cross rose from the grave and never had record in the scriptures. No Wrong mr.
45:10
Patton wrong How would anyone have known he was the Messiah? How do they know what the law was how they've known what sacrifice was this is ridiculous
45:22
It's it's shocking that a Christian apologist is throwing this stuff out here says how do we know about the gospel?
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I don't know maybe angels maybe word -of -mouth maybe direct revelation or maybe not at all The point is that God not have to inspire any books in order for him to be who he is and do what he did
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Which is utterly irrelevant to the point and that is can you have Christianity?
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Because Christianity has a certain form Without inspired scripture and the answer is no
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No Just I mean just mark that one as you've got to be kidding me number seven the unity of Christianity didn't get that one either
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And finally number eight theory of evolution which was sort of what we had up at the top with young earth creationism
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Lisa's as I Referred to it, and he said I had two more that may have gotten me burned at the stake luckily
46:13
I run past my per post character limit I'm not sure there's a limit to how much you can put in post and if so we will definitely not use this kind of software
46:24
III just I am truly left scratching my head at the whole thing I Am I am left?
46:33
Scratching my head at It almost seems like it's let's just get some conversation going here type thing but at the same time
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I am Really reminded that the way that we approach things
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Though we are very much in line with historic Christianity we ain't very much in line with current -day
46:59
Christianity. We're really not and I don't mind that I don't mind.
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I don't hold the positions. I hold Simply because well, that's what we've always believed I've thought about this stuff.
47:15
I find I just found those arguments Amazingly inconsistent and incoherent at some point especially the one inspiration of scripture that make a lick of sense
47:26
But being countercultural in a culture that is sticking its fingers in its ears squinting its eyes and Keeping its mouth shut avoiding the light of God's truth.
47:42
That's not a bad thing That's not a bad thing. So we actually have this call now. All right, we're gonna try it.
47:47
Let's try Joshua again Hi, Joshua Yes, sir
47:58
Actually, the first one I was listening this morning to a
48:05
Way back episode where you were dealing with Mike Icona and Bart Ehrman on the unbelievable program the second
48:14
Interaction I believe where you were talking about But Icona being the reluctant in there.
48:21
Yes, and that sounds much like what Pat was saying I see a lot of parallels.
48:28
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah What it also reminds me of with the inspiration deal was your recent interaction with?
48:36
with Richard Howell Because After all, what does our
48:41
C Sproul say? We have to argue from an uninspired Bible to get to miracles, right? Right.
48:46
So you have the exact same thing from the classical side Um, the other thing was in the comment section
48:54
He said that those two additional things that he had were stolen were what and were stolen
49:00
Oh, really? Yes, and I would submit that it would be full of scripture because obviously he's saying it's not essential
49:09
You have inerrancy and an inspiration. So of course, I'll be full of scripture, but the second one would be sola fide
49:18
Because what's probably his most common topic to post about doubt Hmm I'm looking
49:25
I'm looking Yeah, I'm looking I'm looking through it here. It's on that second page
49:31
I'm keeping the final too close to my heart reserving the right to post again on this subject Yeah, he says in the comment section that it's that it would be that it would be two of the four
49:42
But he's preserving that apparently Yeah, I can't imagine it would be solely Dale Gloria or Solus Christus is something like that So you you would think that?
49:53
probably It would be sola fide and and solo scriptura Yeah, but really
49:59
I don't see how he would avoid denying all five due to denying sola
50:04
Sola scriptura and sola fide. In fact, I actually posted that in his comment section because if you don't have scriptura
50:11
How do you get Christus Dale Gloria or Graphia? Hmm and the same way with with Fide Because you don't have
50:23
Graphia without Fide As far as as far as logical connection is concerned. So it's you kind of just Just capitulate it utterly interesting in my view.
50:36
Well, I normally don't spend a whole lot of time looking at the at the comments
50:43
Which is why I haven't seen that and there's like there's like in fact, I generally don't read comments at all.
50:49
Oh, yeah Yeah, I would like to I would like to see that this has certainly gotten a lot of a lot of discussion going and But yeah that I would
51:04
I would yeah, there's there's actually your your comment I'm just seeing it I'm seeing right now I would like to like to see
51:14
You know if you're gonna if you're gonna say there are these Other issues go ahead and put them out there so we can have at least a good idea of where someone's
51:22
Someone's coming from so anyway Anyway, all righty. Well appreciate the phone call.
51:28
Thanks for getting in. All right. Thank you. All right, brother all right, let's go to Jonathan hi
51:36
Jonathan Hi, dr. White, how you doing? Yeah, I'm doing pretty good. It's really cool to talk to you
51:42
Yes, sir into the way back machine all the time. Oh, I'm sorry I get to listen to all your old stuff
51:50
But my question was about the nature of regeneration I've heard some sermons before that that made me think about the possibility of Regeneration being
52:01
I guess like a like a progressive thing And I've always believed that it was something that happens instantaneous and then
52:11
By that act, you know, you come to faith in Christ and I wanted to know what you thought about that If you read anything on that or well, yeah, it's it's obviously a huge Area of discussion
52:23
I can think of one particular individual who ironically a huge fan of Charles Haddon Spurgeon who at the same time seemingly isn't real big on at least one rather popular reading of Spurgeon's own story at that particular point in time, but Normally the question is can there be a a temporal
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Time period between the act of regeneration and And The exercise repentance and faith.
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I would say that normatively that is not the case That norma to the the normative
53:06
New Testament teaching is that? regeneration Results in repentance and faith that it's associated with the preaching of the gospel
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It's associated with the Word of God. It's the Word of God and and the Spirit of God working together
53:24
Simultaneously and that repentance and faith is a part of the message that's been preached and therefore the new creature
53:29
Longs for Christ, etc, etc At the same time. I'm not prepared to say that that is such a hard and fast rule that that the many people who have testified of a a period in their life where there was a a supernatural change in Their lives that then resulted in You know, they're under they're under conviction of sin.
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They are no longer denying that they're sinners they they accept that but there is this period where they
54:06
Struggle not with their love for sin or anything, but Literally to know what to do and to and to as the old
54:14
Folks of the couple hundred years ago would would describe it closing with Christ I'm not prepared to say well, they weren't
54:23
Saved and I can't I can't look into their hearts to know exactly when God was gracious to them, etc, etc so I Think the the best thing to say is that that normatively
54:36
You have that that act of regeneration as part and parcel of the work that involves the granting of faith and repentance
54:43
But if God for a purpose Wants to have one of his elect
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Experience in their coming to faith something that will be of Encouragement to others or anything like that.
54:59
Who am I to say that? He can't can't do it that way I just don't see that as the normative way at all yeah, and I heard a sermon one time on on Andrew Fuller and it was that was the one that really got me thinking about it was because the the preacher described it as you know, he was struggling with Coming to faith in Christ and he wrote a lot about how he he knew he was a sinner
55:25
But he didn't he didn't know what to do kind of thing like what you were saying Yeah, I suppose some would argue that that that what that actually
55:34
I think a person who would argue that there's never a Time lag would say that's simply the convicting work of the
55:42
Holy Spirit of God and It's not until that information is communicated.
55:48
That is the presentation of the gospel itself With clarity that you actually have the act of regeneration.
55:54
I suppose that might be one of the one of the arguments. I don't know Okay I also had another question totally different topic more to what you were talking about earlier with homosexuality, but I I don't believe
56:11
That people are born gay. I don't believe that that they have a gene that Leads them that way but something that I've thought about is the arguments for that position and Something that that I've been
56:29
Asked before was well if we believe in total depravity Why couldn't we believe that people were born gay and my argument was
56:37
Well, if they're being born gay as a genetic thing, that would mean that There's a possibility of God not actually being able to change them.
56:46
Well, no Well, here's here's here's what you understand We cannot fall into the trap of allowing the homosexual movement to completely redefine biblical anthropology
56:57
We are all born broken sexually every one of us if you're a married man
57:03
And you have ever lusted after a woman who is not your wife. Your sexuality is broken
57:10
Yeah Because if if your sexuality was not broken you would be utterly satisfied
57:15
What God has given you in your own wife and so you never lost after anybody else. So we are all broken sexually the question is
57:23
Do we allow that? brokenness to become definitional of us or Now there's no question that there are people who experience same -sex attraction that doesn't mean you're gay
57:35
That's this is gonna be part and parcel of the of the debate in Montana Is that for Justin Lee if you're born with same -sex attraction, that's what you'll always be
57:45
There can be no change. That's it. God can't change that well,
57:52
I most heterosexual men that I know of experience lustful thoughts
57:58
I Mean we live in a land where? You know, you got to give the Muslims at least something they have something about the idea of dressing demurely
58:09
You drive down any street in America and you're gonna see basically naked women. I mean, it's just the way it is
58:16
I mean, there are women walking down the street with shorts so short. They're not even covering all their posterior and There's just nothing left the imagination well, if that Again if I wasn't broken sexually that would never cause a problem but I am and so it can and so the question is do
58:34
I now define myself by that because I experience those things the answer is no
58:39
I do not and so We need to recognize that we have young people in our congregations who experience same -sex attraction
58:50
But you see the the trap that really we've all fallen into is it somehow that means you are something different No, we're all broken sexually for crying out loud
59:01
Why do you think we have the pornography plague and why do you think we have the divorce plague and and everything else?
59:07
We're all broken sexually and So that's just that's just the way it is
59:12
So to say that God can't change that is to say the first Corinthians 6 is false that it's just wrong
59:19
It's all there is to it and so I went a little bit over to get to that But I I appreciate the opportunity to expand on that because that's something we're gonna have to address
59:29
I think a lot more in regards to Justin Lee's book is his argument is if you have same -sex attraction
59:35
That means you're gay period and then accept that and run with it
59:40
Well, what if you have attraction for food? What if you have attraction for anger? What if you have attraction for stealing things do any of those things make them morally, right?
59:50
And do any of those things? exist outside of God's ability to change not in the sense of Immediately sanctifying us to the level of heaven but giving us the ability to deal with our brokenness and each one of us has a different set of Broken things shall we say and that's part of sanctification.
01:00:12
Hey Jonathan. Thank you very much for your phone call. Appreciate it Sorry, Steve. We'll have to get to you next time on that one ran out of time toward the end of the program
01:00:20
Thanks for listening today. As far as I can tell I think next week is pretty much straightforward.
01:00:27
So Yeah, yeah it is in fact I even scheduled things so we can be on our regular schedule next week
01:00:34
I think we were this week too. Yeah, we were Anyways, that's unusual for me and it won't be that way. I think the week after that but I will be in New York this weekend
01:00:42
I'm preaching at the new Hyde Park Baptist Church Sunday morning Sunday school Sunday morning service and Sunday evening service
01:00:49
That's all I'm doing there. We're heading home straight after that. But for those folks in New York area, maybe we'll see you then godless
01:01:12
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