Jamal Badawi on Muhammad in the Bible

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is the Dividing Line.

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

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Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

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This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the

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United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

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James White. And good morning, welcome to the Dividing Line on a Tuesday morning, the last day of May 2011, and Harold Camping still hasn't figured out what he believes yet.

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Oh, by the way, I think I mentioned before, I have a campingite neighbor down the street, and he or she has this little orange, little teeny tiny compact car, and they had, you know, on the back,

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Judgment Day, May 21st, 2011, family radio, all this stuff. Very professionally done. It wasn't cheaply done, it was professionally done.

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And I have been watching, and a couple of days ago, I slowed down to see if it's there.

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A couple of days ago, May 21st, 2011 has been scraped off, but everything else is still there.

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So now it just simply says, Judgment Day. What that means, what they're supposed to be doing now, nobody has any earthly idea.

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Rats, I was going to get some red paint and go over there and put an X over it. It beat me to it. It's gone.

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Yeah, so I have been so tempted to just stop in front of that house and walk up and knock on the door and say, may

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I please ask, what's that supposed to mean? You know, because I do tune it in once,

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I just have not been able to listen to much of it. I've got other things to do. I'm going to, folks in Houston, you know,

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I'm really sorry that we haven't announced this. I feel terrible, but I'm in Houston this weekend and we haven't put an ad up about it or nothing.

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But I will be in Houston this weekend and I don't even have the information in front of me. That's good. I was going to put that together, but I was queuing up some of the sound clips we're going to be listening to.

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So I apologize. Some of you may go, why are you so, why do you run about so much?

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I don't have a secretary. I do this stuff on my own. Rich does his thing and I do my thing and I don't have a secretary.

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So what can I say? Anyways, I will be in Houston this weekend and I'm going to be speaking on Islam.

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And so if you're in the Houston area, I'll be there. Where? I don't even have the information in front of me.

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I'm sorry. Maybe someone can send it to me, but I'm not sure that that would work since I don't have my email up here in the office right now.

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Anyhow, interesting stuff going on there. But I will be here Thursday and the mailman is waving a package at me in the video over there.

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It's like, yay, you have a package. We have video cameras all around here, which is very frustrating because we've been broken into a number of times.

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And all that does is it means we can go back and watch the guy breaking in later on. It's like, makes it a whole lot worse.

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But anyhow, much, much, much to address on the program today. Surah 61,

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Ayah 6 in the Quran says, And mention, O Muhammad, when Moses said to his people,

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O my people, That's not 61 -6. Where did 61 -6 go? There it is.

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It's the next verse down. I apologize. And mention when Jesus, son of Mary said, O children of Israel, indeed

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I am the messenger of Allah, to you confirming what came before me of the

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Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad. But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said,

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This is obvious magic. Surah 61, Ayah 6. One of the key texts in the

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Quran that talk about the alleged prophecies of Muhammad in the

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Quran. Likewise, Surah 7, verse 157. Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written, and now this is the

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Sahih International translation, and it is interpretive at this point. Every translation is at some point.

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But whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, which I find interesting in what they have.

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So even in what they still have at the time of Muhammad, even that interpretation of it says that the people who read the

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Torah, the people who read the Gospel, they find written in what they have something about this unlettered prophet, the messenger.

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And so for many, many, many years, Muslims have been very actively scouring the text of the

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Bible to attempt to find in the text of scripture a fulfillment of these claims.

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Without a fulfillment of these claims, the Quran is proven false. In fact, it's interesting, and I haven't had time to go through this, and I need to find time to go through this.

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But in the Halalikhan rendering of the

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Quran, in Surah 10, ayah 94 of Surah 10, the

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Sahih International says, So if you are in doubt, O Muhammad, about that which we have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the scripture before you.

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The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters. Now the

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Halalikhan has this very interesting paraphrase of this that in essence limits what

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Muhammad would be doubting about to the fact that he himself is prophesied in their scriptures.

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So if you are in doubt, O Muhammad, about this fact that he allegedly has found the

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Torah in the Injil, then ask those who have been reading the scripture before you, which would be the

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Jews and the Christians. So that's an interesting interpretation.

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There is no question that this idea of the testimony of the pre -existing scriptures to Muhammad as a prophet, very central to Islamic theology.

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Most Christians, however, don't have a clue how to respond to the passages that Muslims bring up.

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In fact, the vast majority of Christians, when I travel about, and I'll be speaking this weekend, when I travel about and discuss this particular subject, yeah, there's

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Fisher just posted and channeled, so if you, O Muhammad, are in doubt concerning that which we have revealed unto you, not even parentheses, it's brackets, i .e.

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that your name is written in the Torah and the Injil, bracket closed. I mean, that's like, that's as bad as putting the word other in Colossians 1 in world translation.

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Obviously that's coming from some of the Hadith literature and its interpretation of that, and that's one of the things

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I need to dig into and get the appropriate Hadith citations because this is something

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I'm going to be dealing with rather fully in the chapter I'm working on in the book. Anyways, I, years ago, sometime since late 2005, so sometime over the past six years, have you noticed how 2005 sounds like it was just like yesterday and now it's like six years ago?

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I remember when I was younger, I'd hear older people saying that and I always wondered why they say that, and now

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I'm saying it and I can't stop, but anyway, sometime since that time, 2005, 2006, 2007, somewhere in that time range,

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I had a very clear memory of playing on this program a section from a series of lectures, they weren't even lectures, they were television programs that I was listening to at that time, featuring

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Jamal Badawi. And Dr. Badawi is, well, was an

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Islamic apologist. He doesn't really engage anymore, well, he did do an outside open -air debate at Biola about what, about three years, four years ago now.

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We have attempted to arrange something with him because I would love to have the opportunity of engaging with him, but he has not been interested in doing so.

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Anyway, he did a lengthy series of half -hour television programs, the audio of which

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I found online at aswadislam .com or net, one of the two, I forget which one it was, it's a bookmark in my, you know, bookmarks are.

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Anyway, I remember I was listening to all this while writing, and I remember exactly where I was, exactly where I was on the trail, on the bike trail, when

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I heard him addressing Isaiah chapter 9. Well, since then,

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I've tried to find that. I tried to find the files on my old computers, I mean, two or three computers down the road since then, and I've listened to stuff, and I just haven't been able to find it.

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And it has frustrated me to no end, because I want to include it in the book. So finally, a day before yesterday,

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I gave up, and I went back to the original website, and I re -downloaded everything, and I took everything, because I knew it was in the section about Muhammad being prophesied in the

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Bible. And there were like eight programs, so it's like four hours worth of stuff. And I squished it all into one mp3, and after listening to some very interesting debates yesterday,

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I got to it this morning. Now, unfortunately, in doing it, I put the program, the program sort of ended up instead of being one followed by two followed by three, it was sort of like three followed by five followed by one.

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It's really all messed up, but it didn't matter, because in the second program, 45 minutes in, which at high speed was about 33 minutes in, you sort of find this in popular talk, as you eventually get used to it.

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Listening at high speed, I finally found the segment, and part of me was very happy that I found this segment, because I was starting to wonder if I had made this up.

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I was starting to go, I can't find this anywhere, and I really have a very clear memory of having played this in the dividing line, a very clear memory of what it was he said, and I couldn't find it.

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Well, I'm feeling much better today, because not only did I find it, but he said exactly what I remembered him having said.

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It's really weird. Stuff like this, I mean, I listened to this while pedaling on a bike six years ago, and I remembered it absolutely perfectly.

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But I can go to Target and stand there in the front door, wondering, why did I come here? What am

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I supposed to get? I've got to get the cell phone out and call the wife. Was it cat food?

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What was it again? I can't remember. You know, I mean, there's certain things, like especially toiletries. I'll go to Target three times in a row and forget it every time.

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It's just amazing, but I can remember exactly what Jamal Badawi said on a bike ride six years ago.

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In fact, I was going to, you know, the only other person that could possibly have directed me to where I played this on Dividing Line before was

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Algo, and I forgot to use the Algo search engine to find out what it, not only when

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I had done it, but what I was wearing the day that I did that program. I'll remember to start keeping tabs on this for you, but if you start doing the, you know, when

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Badawi and I were on South Mountain riding up together, that's when

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I'm going to put my foot down. Yeah, well, I have learned from other people to be careful about claiming to have done debates that you never did in places that you never did them.

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We know. I don't want to end up at a Fundamentalist King James Baptist Bible College in the middle of nowhere.

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I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yeah, Farshad in Channel just said he must have really good earmuffs sound to be able to both bike, listen, and do it at high speed.

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Actually, someone picked up those noise sealing earbuds for me a couple of months ago off the ministry resource list, and they work.

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So, yes, even coming down South Mountain at 35 miles an hour, I can still listen to lectures because I hear nothing, including, yeah, including the semi -tractor trailer.

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Well, thankfully, if I'm going down a mountain, I'm out running the tractor trailer. But anyhow, let's get around to this, having way too much fun here.

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Here is a section that I remembered. And of everything that I listened to, and there is a lot of amazing stuff in this section.

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I got through three hours of it this morning, again, at high speed, so it was only two hours and 15 minutes, but this just blew me away.

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There is nothing that the scriptures say about Jesus that these folks can't apply to Mohammed by just simply ignoring context.

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In fact, in this case, just skipping over inconvenient words, just skip it. So I want you to listen.

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I want you to get your Bible out. And by the way, after this, after we make comment on this, we are going to have a quiz and we're going to take your phone calls and we're going to give away two free books.

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So yes, we are. We're going to give away two free books. And if you want to, what?

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There are no books in there? Oh, no, no, we're going to get some people to call in today.

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So be prepared. And we're going to draw the information from Jamal Badawi's lecture here.

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So, haha. All right, so here we got the volume up. Okay, I got the volume up.

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Here is the section that I've been looking for. Let's listen to Jamal Badawi from the

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Islam in Focus, I think was what was called, television series. Listen to this discussion about a section from the

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Old Testament that is about Muhammad. Continue also in the same chapter, chapter nine.

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Isaiah. You will find that other descriptions are given that this person will be called wonderful and anybody who has studied the history of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, realize again how much achievement was made in such a short time.

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So just so you know, we're talking about Isaiah, chapter nine, being applied to Muhammad.

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You might want to look at your Bible and listen along. Isaiah, chapter nine, verses six and seven. How superb was he as a missionary, somebody who conveyed the message of God and how even his enemies come with him.

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Some of them were so much attracted by his manners and his kindness that they embraced

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Islam after so much enmity. It says also he would be called counsellor, that is provided guidance for people in all aspects of life.

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It mentions also he would be called everlasting father, in a sense also when you take it metaphorically that he would be the spiritual father of prophets, because he is the edifice, the last of all prophets who brought the message of all of these prophets into fulfillment.

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He is described in the same chapter also as the prince of peace and the word peace as you know is one of the words which come from the same root as the word

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Islam comes from, because Islam means achieving peace through submission to the will of God. And as such we can say also that the prophet

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Muhammad is the prince of peace because of as the Quran describes him as awwal al muslimeen, that's in particular in chapter 39, verses 12, that he is remembered as the first or the foremost among the peacemakers or the people who submit or achieve peace by submitting to God.

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It also mentions that there would be no end to his peace, in some other translations of the Bible it says no end to his kingdom, that is there is no end to his teaching and history manifest that, that for two hundred years after him we find that Islam still continues and grows and now constitutes about one fifth of the total world population and still on the go.

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So there is no end actually to his message, that is it has not been abrogated or superseded by any other revelation that came after him.

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And finally, in addition to all of these cues that you get in chapter 9 of Isaiah, in the book of Habakkuk chapter 3, particularly verses 3 -6 which we cited before in a previous program, it describes that person as one who stands and measures the earth.

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And this is again a reference to the early conquests where most of the tyrannical empire at that time crumbled under the

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Islamic conquest and people were brought again to freedom of choice in the matters of their religion and their lives.

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It mentions also about his power that the mountains would be scattered in front of him, again showing the astounding victories that the

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Prophet and his followers have achieved against those tyrannical rulers. Furthermore, in the same book of Habakkuk, it mentions about that Prophet having the power in his heart, again mentioning the magic or the influence of the

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Quran that comes out of his mouth on people of various nations and all kinds, all parts of the world.

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So again, putting it together, it's...

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So did you catch that? It is so obvious that nobody meets that description other than the

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Prophet Muhammad. Now, hopefully as you were listening along there, as you listened to the descriptions from Isaiah chapter 9, you noticed, well, the same thing that I noticed long ago.

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I remember as they started into this, I was going, wait, he's going to Isaiah 9?

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What? How's he going to deal with Isaiah 9?

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And so you heard him talk about wonderful and because Muhammad was wonderful and he was nice to people and even people, you know, so nice to people, they converted to Islam and counselor because he gave guidance in all of life.

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And then he went on to everlasting father and he came up with this wild connection of since he's the last of the prophets, then he's the father of all prophethood and prince of peace because Islam brings peace and the increase of his government and of peace, there'll be no end.

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And this is the teachings of... And I just remember going, hey, hey, you skipped something.

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You skipped mighty God. Mighty God.

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It's right there on the text of the page. But he just skimped right back.

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Did he mention it? Didn't try it. It doesn't elsewhere say, oh, by the way, you know, that's obviously some kind of textual variant or some type of change.

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I mean, as I've been, again, listening this this morning, we had three hours of it in this morning.

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It was just over and over again. I kept thinking to myself. When he finds what he thinks, like Isaiah 42, which is clearly in the

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New Testament identified as a prophetic passage of the Messiah. It's quoted in that way.

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It talks about, you know, opening the eyes of the blind. Jesus himself made application this way.

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But no, no, no, no, no. That just gets skipped and ignored. But when you you're trying to when you're finding alleged prophecies of Muhammad, and by the way, anything that has to do with Saudi Arabia, the

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Arabian Peninsula, anything that can even be remotely connected to Mecca or anything down that direction is going to be dredged up as some type of a prophecy of a prophet coming from that area.

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It just doesn't matter what it is. They will find a way to do it. Anyway, as I'm listening to all this, there's never a question, never a question as to the accuracy of the text they're citing when they find in it some way of reading

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Muhammad in the text. But when it comes to anything that would contradict

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Muhammad being found in the text, or for example, they're just just ravaging

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John 14 and 16 to force Muhammad into the Paraclete passage.

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Well, then the Bible is a mixture of human and divine and and the

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Koran is the determiner of which is which. And so, in other words, you take this book that is completely disconnected historically from the

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Bible. Unlike the intimate connection between the old and the new, where you have constant citation and constant reference and fulfillment language and quotation after quotation after quotation.

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I mean, boy, have I had that driven home to me as I've been preaching through Hebrews. Wow. Quotation after quotation after quotation, intimate connection between Tanakh and the

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New Covenant. None of that in the Koran, utter disconnection, the closest that the only meaningful thing you can say is the author of the

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Koran had a knowledge of the oral transmission of portions of the

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Old and New Testament text and primarily the Old Testament text, not New Testament text. That's it. He had heard stories around campfires.

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That's it. It's best you can do. But despite all of that, despite the complete disconnection, the

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Koran becomes the lens through which everything else has to be read. And so you just simply dismiss as, you know,

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I was thinking about, I was listening. He was talking about a particularly wise man who is quoted in the

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Koran, who allegedly lived long before Muhammad's time. And I was sitting there thinking, you know, the people, these folks quote, the people, these folks rely upon to disassemble the

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Old and New Testaments. They come up with methods for determining whether something

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Jesus said was actually in the Synoptic Gospels was actually said and they, they rate them and things like that. And, you know, there needs to be multiple references and there's all these rules they come up with.

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Those same people would not for an instant give the slightest credibility in any way, shape or form.

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To the Koran citation of some ancient person that no one's ever heard of this person before, allegedly lived long ago.

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This is just the only source we have. And it's years and years and years and years and years down the road, far more removed than anything found in the

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New Testament, certainly in the Old Testament. And yet they just accept it at face value while accepting the critical dismissal of things that are far better attested in the

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Old and New Testaments than what you have in the Koran. Just this incredible inconsistency. So listening to all that, and I just,

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I would love to ask Jamal Badawi, what about mighty God?

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What, what, what, what about, you know, I mean, you know, I would love to go through all of it.

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You know, he did Deuteronomy 18, he did John 4, all that stuff. We've, we've done it before. You can see the, the ABN videos, the, uh, uh,

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Muhammad marathon stuff that I've done, where you've gone through those texts and we've gone through Song of Solomon 516, which he brought up.

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You can go through all that stuff and just, you can just blow it all away. It's not difficult to do, though some of them do require a lot of Old Testament background research to be able to give a meaningful and full response.

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But to, to go to Isaiah 9 and over and over again,

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I'd hear him say, it's just so clear. It's just so plain. This has to be the prophet Muhammad. Well, what does he do with Isaiah 53?

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Who's that? Who's that? I mean, because if you can find in something about Mount Paran, something about Muhammad, then how in the world can you not see the crucifixion in Isaiah 53?

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The double standard is, again, the primary reason why a person of truth just simply cannot accept this kind of argumentation.

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It is, it is just so clear and, and, and right there, right, right in front of you.

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Now, let me roll this back here. cannot let you know that there's no this year uh...

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here's here's here's the quiz for today here's the quiz for today here's what i'm looking for i'm going to play you a section of jamal battery making a connection to his profit from the bible and i'm looking for is someone to call up and tell me what other religion has utilized the same tax in the same argumentation in support of their profit other than this one now that this first will be a religious group the second one will also be a religious group but not necessarily a non -christian religious group just a unique interesting religious group don't you dare ruin anything now i nobody's allowed to call before you actually play it uh...

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that would be a good idea yeah that would be a good idea but you need to tell me what religious group it is and how they do it so let's let's see if this is even gonna work as this may be you know this may not work all right so here we go here's here this came let me see this this came less than forty five seconds to a minute after okay so it's in the same lecture here's uh...

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here's jamaal baddawi history of islam as you know the first revelation that came to prophet muhammad as narrated in all authentic historical meditating in the cave of hira outside of mecca and then it says angel gabriel came to him and he held him very strongly and said read or recite he said i can't read actually the original arabic word which could mean what shall i read or i can't read or i'm not learned qari also means somebody who is learned and not learned and then the angel held him twice and then he started dictating on him the first revelation that came from the quran this is something that has been universally uh...

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understood and accepted by all authorities let me just quote you from isaiah chapter twenty nine verse twelve and see how that description is consistent it's not exactly the same as has been given to how revelation came first to prophet muhammad again in uh...

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isaiah twenty nine twelve it says and the book is delivered to him that is not learned saying read this i pray thee and he says i am not learned just word for word almost word for word what the prophet responded to angel gabriel so this is one that's how the revelation first is going to come to him and that he would be unlearned and everybody knows that the prophet was of course unlearned he was not literate okay there you go isaiah twenty nine twelve and it's fulfilled in muhammad being illiterate i cannot read and what you have in the in the cave and and when gabriel comes and uh...

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all the rest of that fun stuff uh... what other world religion has utilized isaiah twenty nine twelve uh...

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in the context of a proof or demonstration of the prophethood of it's well i'll give you a hint founding prophets uh...

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pretty easy dividing dot line via skype eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number and uh...

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what you get is a free copy of scripture alone scripture alone written by the bald pseudo scottish man and uh...

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that's me so scripture alone eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number if you want to get on the program and give us show us your great in -depth understanding of apologetics and things relevant to that uh...

30:29

as somebody in uh... channel saying i have scriptural and so i'm just and obviously not going to call and on something like that just because i have which means i have absolutely no use for you know a second one but uh...

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let's uh... let's see if uh... if anyone in the state of maine can possibly know something like this hello dan of maine doctor what i don't know i'm doing pretty well excellent well my my answer even before your gracious hands i was thinking with joseph smith anymore tradition yeah so you familiar with the context uh...

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a little bit not a whole lot to be honest uh... i think i just remember hearing a brief sketch on it so i can't remember where i heard it or read it for that matter just in regards to joseph smith ignorance and yes yes well uh...

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specifically uh... the the application that was made of of this particular text uh...

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was actually in regards to joseph smith transcribing some of the alleged uh...

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characters from the golden plates and taking them to a scholar who said i cannot read them and that this was a supposed to be a fulfillment of as a twenty nine uh...

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and uh... it's a sealed book and so on and so forth and so if you want to read some more about that you can find a discussion of it as i recall doing this off the top of my head but as i recall there is a discussion of it uh...

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in a marvelous work in a wonder by legrand richards uh... so uh... but yes this was network without referring to the ancient uh...

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egyptian uh... egyptian hieroglyphics reformed egyptian hieroglyphics uh...

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yes which uh... are still quite embarrassing to the uh... the modern evidence that uh...

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but yes the reformed egyptian hieroglyphics which allegedly the golden plates are written in and uh...

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yeah that was uh... that was the story there's there's actually a lot of conflict about the scholar and what he allegedly said and all the rest that stuff but yes uh...

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there it's not difficult to draw parallels not difficult to draw parallels at all between uh...

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mormonism and islam uh... despite the fact that their conclusions as to the nature of god or could not possibly before more fully removed from one another uh...

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you know uh... uh... mohammed right here uh... sir sixty one six uh...

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i'm prophesying scripture joseph smith inserted an entire chapter in the genesis all about him as a prophet named joseph uh...

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so there seems to be you know once you you adopt that prophet mandel you can pretty much do what you want to do at that point and uh...

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yeah i was thinking that when i was listening to the jubal uh... recording there i was just thinking i think you could probably if you wanted to you could probably find winston churchill in that isaiah 9 passage i mean you could you could pretty much find uh...

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anything especially for those that are kind of into the bible code oh yes well once you abandon meaningful rules of interpretation of any any text at all i mean as i pointed out my debate with shabir ali in london on this subject uh...

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i found a hebrew word shabar uh... and found a text where it's used and made a prophetic application to shabir ali coming to london so uh...

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you know once context and meaning and stuff like that is thrown out you can prove anything you want and harold camping is demonstrating that today uh...

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just as well and uh... once you abandon that stuff you cannot claim that you are actually uh...

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speaking for god or that what you're saying has anything to do with god because you no longer concerned about what god has actually said so all right dan thank you very much i'm gonna put you on hold here so that uh...

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uh... mister uh... mister pierce can get the information from you you've done the state of maine well thank you sir thank you doctor whatever going on at this point all right so put them back on hold there so uh...

34:42

rich can get his information and there is the first one uh...

34:48

so actually uh... i'm being told uh... the deal still appears offline on skype uh...

34:55

dividing dot line it is it is up it is not up uh... died you tell people they can get in that way or cannot get in that way they can get in that way so the person in the channel is confused okay are well as long as that's what you're telling me and i've just gotta go with what the man says okay uh...

35:14

alright so here comes the second of our quiz uh... information today now this next group uh...

35:23

this i'm not looking for uh... someone supporting a profit here i'm looking for what group utilizes this same text of scripture in a particular way that is just as challengeable as the way the doctor that we will use it here so what group utilizes the scripture he's going to use here in ironically similar fashion but for a completely different purpose i found this sort of humorous actually uh...

35:57

uh... okay here we go and finally there is also a prophecy that we find in the bible that this scripture given to that prophet, to that promised prophet will be preserved in its purity for the shortest time i'll just give the reference in the

36:10

Psalms of David number twelve verses six and seven it talks again about god promising to preserve that uh...

36:19

word of his in its purity again if you look at it objectively and historically there is no other revelation or scripture in the entire history of mankind that remained intact in its original language with ample evidence available that it has never changed or added or mixed with any other philosophy but one and that is the last revelation, the

36:40

Quran given to prophet Muhammad peace be upon him eight seven seven seven five three three three four one or dividing that line on skype eight seven seven seven five three three four one what religious group utilizes that text uh...

36:57

in the same way that Jamal Batui does but for a different book actually for a completely different purpose uh...

37:08

let me uh... do we have somebody on skype looks like we might have somebody on skype okay i was going to play it again let me go ahead and play it again uh...

37:17

and then we'll take the whoever came in first here that this scripture given to that prophet will be preserved in its purity for the shortest time i'll just give the reference in the

37:27

Psalms of David number twelve verses six and seven it talks again about god promising to preserve that uh...

37:36

word of his in its purity again if you look at it objectively and historically there is no other revelation or scripture in the entire history of mankind that remained intact in its original language with ample evidence available that it has never changed or added or mixed with any other philosophy but one and that is the last revelation the

37:57

Quran given to prophet Muhammad peace be upon him okay uh... so so there you go so who is the first one up there uh...

38:04

Mr. Pierce who is the first one up here number okay alright so let's talk with uh...

38:11

cody on skype hi cody hi Dr. White how are you uh...

38:17

i'm doing alright how are you uh... doing just great so psalm twelve six and seven how about it uh...

38:25

i think that that would be uh... the king james onlyest that's correct ding ding ding ding ding uh...

38:32

in fact uh... we made available i don't know about six months or so ago i remember i was listening to this debate back in december so it was about six months ago uh...

38:41

we posted online uh... posted in our uh... ailment store the uh...

38:47

audio of the debate that i did uh... with uh... on how the name is escaping me who was it uh...

38:55

was a nice debate to on king james only as we did on the dividing line years and years and years years ago uh...

39:00

and the name is just for some reason just left out of my mind uh... cfd i'd could remember what you are that we said that i think i think i had to be done anyways and uh...

39:09

some twelve sixty seven was one of the key text that we examined at that particular point in time uh...

39:16

and of course the king james only folks make application to the king james version of the bible and their uh...

39:23

tomorrow that we made uh... application to the cut on uh...

39:28

neither of which uh... honors the original context of some twelve sixty seven in any way shape or form because of course english language did not exist at the time the writing of some twelve let alone a seventeen century anglican translation thereof and uh...

39:45

to stretch this to some arabic uh... revelation uh... that would become uh...

39:51

all who knows uh... over a thousand years after the time of the writing the song uh... and even before that no more than a thousand years both demonstrates the kind of isa jesus that uh...

40:02

really marks uh... this kind of this kind of stuff the actual i think the actual interpretation the text is the promise that comes earlier in some twelve uh...

40:12

of god's uh... protection of the uh... the poor in the week is what is being referred to their not uh...

40:18

not some text down the road someplace but uh... you are exactly correct uh...

40:23

that is the king james only group so we will be more than happy to uh... send you out uh...

40:29

copy either either we will give cody a choice here actually should give we should give dana choice to either scripture alone or pulpit crimes either uh...

40:40

you get to tell us which one you would like to take okay already cody thank you very much for calling in i thank you very much i guess i remember all right there you go i just and i don't know i just thought about doing that today and thought we'd uh...

40:55

get some listener interest uh... in that's and uh... i just felt as i was in those going uh...

41:02

it's interesting to listen to these tax being uh... being applied in ways that uh... not very many folks uh...

41:08

think about all right there we're done with that uh... it wasn't uh... d a weight uh...

41:14

who was uh... what was that's gonna bug me that i can't remember the uh...

41:20

the name of the fellow that uh... we've surpass would know because their brass uh...

41:26

was the one who uh... edited the audio so i will give him about forty five seconds to post and channel the name of the king james only fellow that uh...

41:37

i did we had on the program i can see his book in my mind we hadn't doctor holland thank you thank you very much for us uh...

41:46

dot thomas holland uh... was a fellow that we're talking about c i i can see the book and i was trying to zoom into the to that under the title to the name and thank you very much yes i'm where that's the mess i'd saw that you guys are on the way and uh...

42:02

anyway it's not comes home i appreciate uh... the information eight seven seven seven five three three three four one there's lots a lot of lots of stuff to be talking about today uh...

42:13

lots of things to be commenting upon if you would like to join the program dividing dot line on skype questions you might have uh...

42:23

other than i have absolutely no interest in getting into the the quicksand that would be a discussion of the john piper rick warren stuff so that's what i tried to drag me into that i'm like and gone there didn't read the interview not interested dot now uh...

42:45

that you know uh... maybe as i'm getting older i'm finally realizing you know sometimes you just stay away it's that's stay away uh...

42:55

i do not do not want to in any way shape or form uh... touch anything like that at all uh...

43:03

we also have the very interesting stuff and i don't have any on my screen right now but uh...

43:09

some very interesting articles came out over the weekend about people who have lost their jobs because they have begun promoting or posting at by a lot of which i do find interesting and in fact downright encouraging on one level uh...

43:29

in the sense that that means that there are still some schools that are willing to take a stand on important things like we do have a creator uh...

43:40

that's another big area that is rather interesting to get into as well but uh... before we go there let's uh...

43:48

go ahead and talk with uh... louis silas hey what's up dr white uh...

43:53

i have a question regarding the reliability of certain islamic sources and the one that i have in mind particular uh...

44:00

you're familiar with the biography by ibn ishaq right? sure and uh...

44:05

it's used extensively by other apologists like sam shamoon it's also used extensively by many i mean it's foundational to any meaningful biographical uh...

44:19

story rendition of muhammad's life i mean you you know that's just all there is to it but because it contains uh...

44:29

what we might call historically embarrassing information because it pre because its sources predate the cleansed version of muhammad's life that develops on the basis of the hadith sciences and because of the arbitrary application of the rules that developed over time in the hadith sciences then and there are times when it is attacked by modern islamic apologists on that basis because obviously he didn't utilize the same uh...

45:11

fully worked out uh... rules and they are complex rules anyone who's listened to lectures on hadith sciences and isnad chains and and all the rest of that stuff uh...

45:24

because he does not necessarily follow that uh... because he's before that then he becomes attacked anachronistically on that basis so with that said go ahead yeah i was actually gonna you seem to have uh...

45:40

for knew what i was going to bring up because i've been looking up for knowledge yes uh...

45:46

but we need to differentiate that for knowledge from the biblical for knowledge that's another issue yeah i know yeah but because i'm looking at you know at the sham gulam the guy you oh please hold on at least at least and then the first of all i do not admit to that yes i have all the camera here and actually try to get rid of one because uh...

46:10

when's when uh... yeah but his website answering christian claims there's a lengthy article here where he had tries to argue that it is not is unreliable even has like a shorter one by joel of wall road i got it

46:28

Yes, well I did debate Jalal. Yeah, and basically they just threw out a lot of arguments as to why they think

46:36

Ibn Ishaq is not a reliable source. Okay, let's keep something in mind with both of these men to a slightly less egregious level with Jalal al -Barawru, but only slightly.

46:51

We're not talking about critical thinkers here. We're not talking about people who are looking at their sources with any critical eye whatsoever.

46:58

They have where they need to go, and they will do whatever they need to do to get where they're going.

47:06

Okay, that was painfully obvious with the non -debate debate, and it's clearly the case with Jalal al -Barawru as well.

47:18

Look, this is a simple issue here. What people need to understand, when you hear, and we don't want to lose everybody,

47:28

I understand, Louis, that you have a deep background in Islam, but we need to realize that even since, for example, the time

47:36

I spent in an entire program, went through every single reference to Isa in the Quran, we have so many new listeners since then that we need to be careful we just don't lose everybody with the terminology that we're using and stuff like that.

47:48

So if I'm repeating stuff, I already know you know this. I'm not trying to tell you this, but we need to keep our listeners along with us so that everybody gets edified and built up in their ability to give an answer of the faith.

48:00

When you hear people like Louis or myself or Sam or David or Nabil or anybody who's involved in doing

48:09

Islamic apologetics, when you hear us making reference to the hadith, hadith is a singular, ahadith is a plural, the hadith literature as a whole, you'll hear us making reference to Sahih al -Bukhari and Sahih al -Muslim and Sunan Abu Dawud and Jami 'at

48:27

Tirmidhi and the authoritative collections of hadith.

48:33

Now, how did they become authoritative collections? And by the way, if you don't give the reference to the collection, nobody can find it,

48:41

Dr. Geisler, just so you mind that. That's just another of the evangelical cover -up issues there, but we move on quickly from that point.

48:51

How did these things come into existence? Well, they didn't just pop into existence in the generation after Muhammad's death.

49:00

In fact, they were collected a long time after Muhammad's death. And each one of these collectors, the greatest or the most accurate, at least according to Sunni Islam, is considered to be

49:12

Bukhari, followed by Muslim. There's sort of a hierarchy of reliability, but they developed rules for the examination of things that Muhammad allegedly said.

49:24

Who is it narrated by? And what was the reliability of this individual? When I talk about listening to lectures on this stuff,

49:36

I remember last summer going out on an 80 -miler, and it was in August. August in Phoenix, folks, stinks, okay?

49:44

It is hot. And I remember it was pitch black outside. It was about 3 o 'clock in the morning.

49:50

And I'm crunching along these roads, totally alone. There ain't nobody out here. Even the desert animals are smart enough to be inside at this time in the morning.

49:58

And I'm listening to Yasir Qadhi lecturing on the

50:03

Hadith sciences, specifically the rules. And it was so fascinating. I forget which rule it was.

50:09

I almost did a dividing line on it because I decided not to. But one of the rules of determining what is a sahih, what is a sound, reliable Hadith, was so, to me, circular.

50:22

In other words, it was something along the lines of, does it contradict an already accepted sound

50:28

Hadith? So in other words, it's a self -correcting system. And you see, the problem with Ibn Ishaq, going back to you,

50:35

Louis, now, is since he pre -exists the creation of these rules, he doesn't use these rules.

50:44

And the Muslims go, well, if you don't use these rules, then we automatically reject it. Well, wait a minute. You're talking about rules that are made up two and three centuries later on.

50:55

And from a historical perspective, what those rules do is they cleanse the historical record.

51:04

And what they do is they get rid of what is considered to be historically embarrassing. Well, that's the stuff that's actually the most useful.

51:12

That actually speaks of what's most historically reliable. So, for example,

51:17

Ibn Ishaq, as you know, records the story of the satanic verses. And since it's found right there, and it's very clearly presented, well, he can't possibly be sound, or he can't possibly be recording for us real history and all the rest of this kind of stuff like that.

51:36

So, it's an anachronistic system. And the Muslim just assumes, well, since the

51:43

Sunnah, since the Hadith is, you know, what I have to have to have my understanding of the

51:50

Quran, then anyone who violates that, including someone who came before it, even though that's an anachronistic thing, it's anachronistic to force someone who came before these rules to follow rules that weren't made up yet, yet I'm going to follow them anyways and therefore reject this stuff.

52:04

And it just shows, again, the vast chasm that exists between a critical examination of these materials and the religious examination of these materials.

52:22

Am I still on? Yes, you are. Okay, it's funny though, because if I recall correctly, while some

52:29

Muslim apologists will deride the authority of Ibn Ishaq, there are others who will quote

52:34

Ibn Ishaq, and it's like the Bible. They will quote it, except when it says it's corrupted.

52:41

They do the same thing with their own sources. Oh, sure. And it's really that unreliable.

52:48

That makes you wonder why they still print it. Like, why would they print a book that they consider unreliable?

52:54

Well, I don't know about that, but I do know that Ibn Ishaq does verify so many things you find in Bukhari very, very clearly.

53:10

He's drawing from the exact same sources, and he's closer to those sources. He's just before the cleaning process has begun, the purifying process has begun, basically.

53:21

And so that's why there are sections that they, you know. There are better Islamic apologists who recognize the great value of that source, but all of them will be a little bit hesitant because it does contain material.

53:37

But then again, as someone like yourself just pointed out in Channel, there's lots of embarrassing stuff.

53:45

I'm sorry, as far as I'm pointing it out in Channel. There's a lot of embarrassing stuff in the

53:50

Hadith collections as they exist that ends up. I remember when

53:56

I debated Usama Abdullah in Southern California, and I only barely admit that that was a debate, and I would never do it again.

54:03

But when I brought up Sahih al -Bukhari 5, Volume 5, 69610, he just said,

54:13

Oh, that's not sound. That's not a Sahih. So people, and I remember quoting one of Muslims' Hadith about the two of them.

54:24

Actually, it might be three in a row, that talk about the substitution of Christians and Jews for Muslims on the

54:30

Day of Judgment. A substitutionary concept. And our good friend who called in last week or so,

54:37

Abdullah Kunda on ABN, dismissed that because it only had one source.

54:45

So there's always a way to get around those

54:51

Hadith. And let's face it, the various legal schools, that's what they're doing.

54:58

They are giving more weight to this and more weight to that. And that's why, honestly, Lewis, you've raised an important question here.

55:05

It helps me illustrate something for people listening. And that is, when you hear of the dissension amongst

55:12

Muslims, regarding the issue of radicalization and Jihad and who is a proper target of Jihad and when you can engage in Jihad and things like that.

55:25

Folks, these are the sources they're drawing from. And I do not find these sources to be self -consistent at all.

55:32

And you can get to pick and choose how much weight you put on this and how much weight you put on that.

55:38

And that's my concern. I applaud those who try to argue against Al -Qaeda and their interpretation of the

55:48

Quran and the Hadith. But my concern is the sources they're using simply are not consistent enough to actually answer the question.

55:55

There will always be the Malakis out there, the Anwar Malaki and his followers.

56:03

And they pick and choose. They choose their Quranic materials. They choose their Hadith materials.

56:09

They put weight on this and don't put weight on that. And they interpret this this way and they interpret that that way. And I just don't see these sources as having enough historical and linguistic stability, like you have in the

56:22

New Testament, to be able to allow one side to actually vanquish the other in debate.

56:29

And that's where this stuff really becomes incredibly practical today.

56:35

We're living with this stuff all the time. So, does that help, Louis? Yeah, it's been very great.

56:42

And you really hit the nail on the head when it comes to the moderates versus the radicals, both emphasizing different traditions to support their case.

56:51

Yep. Which is why... Hello? Yeah. Which is why, actually, right here in Canada, there's actually a lot of debate between the conservatives and the more secular or liberal

57:02

Muslims. Back in January, and I think Bartimaeus would attest to this, there was an attempted debate between a liberal modernist

57:12

Muslim and a conservative, but the liberal dropped out. And, yeah, apparently they're just trying to draw from different aspects of the traditions.

57:22

Yeah, and I just don't think the traditions in and of themselves have the clarity and consistency to be able to answer the question.

57:29

Hey, Louis, we're out of time. Thanks for your phone call today. All right. God bless. All right, well, that was a heavily

57:36

Islamic dividing line today. But, hey, you know, you never know.

57:41

I didn't know when I got up this morning what we were going to do on the program today, but hopefully that is useful to folks and very, very interesting material.

57:51

And, obviously, for me, this is where my mind is all the time right now as I'm working on the book, and so sometimes that spills out.

58:01

To be honest with you, the camping stuff was more of a distraction than anything else, and it's going to continue to be one because, well,

58:08

October 21st isn't that far away. Lord willing, we will be back on Thursday here on the dividing line, and who knows what

58:17

I will have been listening to on my ride that morning. It's starting to hit the hundreds here in Phoenix, and so it's got to be real early in the morning when we're out there.

58:26

It actually helps to concentrate a little bit when it's dark. I'm not sure why I'm not distracted by things that are, you know, can't see anything.

58:32

All I can see is what's in the headlight. It's easy to remember. Anyway, we'll be back then. Thanks for listening to Dividing Line today.

58:38

God bless. The Dividing Line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries.

59:35

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59:41

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59:46

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59:55

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