Discussion on Meritorious Works & Acts 2:38 w/ AK Richardson!!

The Apologetic Dog

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he would come because I did want to come and you know even though we don't agree on some of the some of the issues there but I did appreciate you know

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I agreed a lot of that he said and that's why I'm playing part of what he said right here yeah

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I've been keeping up with you probably for around a year you've been popping up on Marlon Wilson's standing or the gospel truth

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I've seen some of your debates and I think you debated a universalist and I messaged you I was like hey we're on the same team for this debate so I appreciated that debate and I have to admit you had the

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Crawford guy twisted up and not on standing for truth the last that I watched and so yeah

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I thought that was phenomenal and you touched on that a little bit earlier and I was gonna tell you

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I think I did say when you came to 12 -5 I'm actually going to be on standing for truth debating a

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Lutheran on the Lutheran understanding and doctrine of baptism so you might get a kick out of that too okay now in what aspect so good question and by the way that will be a week from today

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I believe it's gonna be the 16th of December around 8 p .m. or so we were gonna specifically talk about baptismal regeneration which you've distinguished yourself saying you don't hold that position so I appreciate your clarity on that but the more

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I delved into the topic the way that they have infant baptism is interwoven how they see the spirit being at work so it's gonna be very broad we're probably gonna hit all the major aspects of how

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Lutheran understand all of the main verses and how they understand baptism I got you okay now you and I also

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I mean I'm not trying to I know you called in to make some point but you and I were talking about a debate we haven't got anything settled but just a little teaser

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I actually actually we were talking about an in -person debate in which I actually would like to do one of those at some point here so we'll keep talking about it maybe we'll get that going yeah

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I think that would be a blast and we live pretty close I think you're about an hour ish from where I'm located so I really do think we could probably get something like that in the works and that'd be a lot of fun yeah looking forward to it so what did you have a something you wanted to ask or make a comment on yes and I think you're an excellent teacher in terms of just being able to articulate well what you believe and I won't name any names but I appreciate your program and how you explain a lot of things in comparison to a lot of those other ministries out there and so when we were talking at the event you know and you mentioned this on your show a little bit earlier you said in a sense we can agree justification by faith alone and then you said meaning apart from meritorious works and I thought that's great that's a good point because I do think at least with me and you we are closer on this issue than a lot of other people and I like how you're

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I agree with you the word alone needs explaining I just tell people when

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I hold to the five souls of the Reformation that's that has a historical context so I always try to define what alone means there and it is different than the the free gracers in the anti lordship position

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I think you're right when you're asking the question they remove repentance that's how I've heard Steve Anderson essentially define faith alone

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I thought yeah that's I'm not on that bandwagon you know I mean so yeah

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I was wanting to talk a little bit more about meritorious works and kind of lets you define that more and listening to the

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Crawford debate it seems like you said look the woman that reached out and touched the hem or the garment of Christ this would not be a meritorious work and then to explain it on that a little bit and then to maybe contrast it with what a meritorious work would be like the

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Jews trying to earn favor with God by the Pharisees so is that a good contrast of how you see works going okay so yeah and that's that's gonna come out more in the program but so I don't actually use the term meritorious works

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I don't have a problem with it I just every time I've ever heard that and I'm talking about from people like -minded as myself

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I don't know what a meritorious work necessarily is but I think what they mean is probably what

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I mean I mean you cannot your own personal here's what I mean that that in obedience to God your personal righteousness is never deserving you're never you're not sinless therefore you are a sinner you are guilty so your own righteousness in and of itself is just not worthy of God's favor that there has to be a justification and so and however we get that you know that is

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God justifying us by his grace and so what I think Paul means when he talks about works that salvation or justification is not of works he's always talking about one's personal righteousness now the

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Jews were striving and he uses the term their own righteousness in Romans and and right after he talks about they strove for a by works so that's what he means now and I think it's in Titus he says not by works of works of righteousness which

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I have done yeah and that and that's that's what he means he means my own righteousness what I have done cannot get me there and this is in contrast to grace meaning it exactly this is why

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I was playing this clip Jeremiah of dr. white because he mentions that what

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Paul is saying isn't true or I mean make sure I word this right that when

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Paul says we're not saved of works then James explains that as you know as if you can put

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God into debt like he owes you something that's exactly what it means if your own righteousness what you do your works were in of themselves deserving of God's righteousness or of God's favor then he would be obligated because it's what is what he owes to you

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I mean he it would be wrong for him not to bless you and do good to you and because you don't deserve anything but so that's that's what

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I mean and I believe that's what Paul means so just to kind of get some more clarity so what would fall in the purview or circle of works and then what kind of lands outside of that does that make sense when

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I say works I'm saying like meritorious works like what you're talking about and I'm not sure

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I understand your question so it's something let's take baptism good baptism in your view be a type of work that's not meritorious like if someone is fully trusting in Christ then kind of like the woman that touched the the garment of Christ this type of act of faith which

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I've heard you say that wouldn't be meritorious where if somebody was stepping into a baptistry you know just puffed up self -righteous like a

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Pharisee but in modern times would that then it's the same work but then internally since they're kind of looking to themselves and trusting in themselves is that what kind of makes it meritorious yeah okay so okay two things number one yeah and so just technically speaking

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I don't know that there would be any work that performed that could merit but I think what you're talking about yeah is is one's a intent and purpose and their mindset okay so there's two ways that there's two ways to do what

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Paul says can't be done and let me explain what I mean now when he says it's not of works he says the one to to the one working this is

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Romans 4 to the one working it's counted as wage and not as grace not as a gift so in other words one way to do it which actually can't be done is to actually just be sinless

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Romans 4 comes from the earlier chapters when he's when he's telling everybody everybody is sent if you have never sinned and all your works are righteous you then your personal righteousness what you have done your law -keeping your obedience does deserve

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God's favor because you haven't done anything to this to not deserve it so that would be one way but Paul makes it clear that isn't a reality nobody does it that way the other way and I think this is more realistic to what he's dealing with is the

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Jews the mentality and of course this applies to anybody but in context the

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Jewish superiority problem is that they thought that they were righteous enough they thought because they were

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Jews and they had the law of Moses that that made them righteous unlike the Gentiles and so they felt superior and so Paul is saying no it doesn't work that way and so yes what you're saying is true anybody could do things it could be a baptism it could be anything and then because of that thing

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I am righteous in and of myself because of this I feel superior to those who just haven't done the good things that I have done yes that is any kind of self -righteousness problem it could be with anything and by the way it could be faith now we won't get into it but you know you know you and I would disagree on God and how he chooses who believes and all that but I will admit that anybody could be say and have the same incorrect attitude you know well

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I'm a believer look how righteous I am because I believe now I haven't actually met anybody like that I'm sure they're out there but anybody could feel righteous and superior and like they deserve something because of what they done and so that could that could go for anything yeah

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I appreciate you bringing clarity on that I'm trying to figure you out before we we square up one day

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I got you I'll go ahead and add that I don't know too many of the people

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I run around with you saw you know I I do get around a lot of people that believe baptism is

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I'm not talking about Catholics now well so let me say it like that now that I said that I was gonna say most of people that I am like -minded with on baptism

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I I've never heard them feel like they are superior or that they have earned something through baptism but I do believe

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Catholics have a lot of that they they you know the act itself if you the sacraments when you do them the acts itself infuses infuses grace into your soul and things like that it's like the power is in the act and there is a lot of even the concept of merit you know you do enough

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Hail Mary's and this this you can cross the T's and you know or I mean check the boxes what I'm trying to say so I do believe there's a lot of that in Catholicism but I don't know anybody that shares a view like I do that believes they have earned anything but because they have been baptized so what

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I say Jeremiah is this is what I was leading to a person who trusts

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God and repents and is baptized as has been commanded they're doing this because they trust

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God and it's because of their trust now so to make it clear let's say a person does that but it's not out of trust and we all know you're not you know your church name is 12 -5 so I don't know

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I assume you're not a Presbyterian or a lot Presbyterian Baptist okay okay well

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I knew you were debating a Lutheran so well you know that they baptize infants but you know there's lots of people that get baptized because they don't or because they see everybody else doing or because well

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I think I should do this but it's not really out of faith but then that doesn't do anything it doesn't matter because it has to be an act of faith and when you act out of faith here's my position you know you may disagree or agree but you just want to understand my position just like the woman who touched his clothes when you act out of faith because you trust in Christ for what he has said for who he is

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Christ evidently doesn't really see that as much different than what your faith is he said your faith has healed you and so that's my position yeah

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I think that brings a ton of clarity I have a follow -up question but then another one stuck in my head real quick when we're talking about this and this made me curious

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I've talked with some people that said that believe in credo baptism you have to be baptized based on faith and then it has to be by immersion and then these types of people say if you don't do it you're disobeyed you know

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I mean and so you know my bells of legalism start chiming off a little bit not every with every person

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I always ask for definition of terms and context of certain verses but with some of these individuals they said that I asked well what if hypothetically you know somebody is desiring to be obedient to all that is

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Christ has commanded us but their hand didn't make it into the baptism now you've talked you've told me you know if if you die in a car wreck on the way of wanting to get baptized

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God will reckon your faith you know see that that's what you're designed to be obedient that person would be you know saved by grace through faith and I'm over here like hey let's high -five real quick because I would answer the same thing what do you think about the person that says well if your your foot was hanging out or your hand was out and wasn't totally submerged do you see that that is somebody being disobedient to baptism no not at all so baptism as an act of faith and they're responding to God well so Peter if he's standing there and he says repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins and they understand forgiveness is grace you know so they trust in God through Peter obviously and they say okay that's what

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I'm gonna do well you know if they're a hand is sticking up and they don't know that's not the issue now and so I do believe and I don't know anybody and I'll just say it again just I don't know anybody that thinks like I do that thinks that it would be a deal -breaker now maybe you have but well

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I will say and that's a little bit of my area that live in but and and I put it under the umbrella of legalism there's so and like I said it's not what you're pushing for but they're saying you have to be obedient to the

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T like full submersion if you don't then you're disobeying the gospel and I'm just like man it breaks my heart because they've missed grace they miss what the gospel is truly about and I think they have exchanged the gospel of grace for this legalistic self -righteous mentality but they'll never say that so but I just want to bring that up passing online names but just to show how there is a contrast from you know a lot of people that I interact with in what your position is and so I appreciate your clarity

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I don't want to take up all the time in your program I know you got a number of things I did have one last question unless you wanted to get into something else no well

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I just I'll just say this about that well so I do my position being that we are justified by faith and since baptism is an act of faith to say well if your pinky was never got out of the water that wouldn't condemn you know something like that well to me that's an absurdity and I do believe that's legalism because because if it's if it's justification is through faith then it is not through or justification is not through the precision of your knowledge or the precision of your or the perfection of your obedience so there's all kinds of examples of that in the the

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Bible well one would be even in the in Chronicles when Hezekiah was trying to reform

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Israel and get them to observe the Passover and so there was this reform or they wanted to do what's right but they couldn't it was so late that they couldn't get clean as the law wanted them to for the the the observance but they did it anyway because they thought well this is the thing to do and they they prayed to God and God and God was okay with it it says that in the text even though it says they didn't do it according to the law because the most important thing that God has ever wanted from man is for his heart to change and come back to him in faith love which obviously implies obedience but it's coming back to him from rebellion and serving him so if a person is attempting to do that by all possible means of his will when he's getting baptized but he happens to get his pinky out and God's saying well as much as that has been my most important thing for man this whole history of my creation is getting his heart to come back to me but technically your pinky came out you didn't know it but I'm gonna send you to hell that's absurd it's contrary to everything in the

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New Testament I do believe and I'll just end it here so you could ask the last question that the the act itself is not more important than the heart that is in the purpose of the heart now that's not to say that if you well if as long as your heart's okay then the act itself doesn't matter at all and I'm not saying that what

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I'm saying is the act itself is not more important than the heart that's attempting to do the right thing so anyway you had a you said one last question yeah and I just I want to appreciate or just let you know how much

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I appreciate you bringing clarity on that because believe it or not a lot of people that I've met with would say the very opposite and call it disobedience and it just breaks my heart like they remember with how

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Jesus interacts the Pharisees they've almost held to the letter of the law over the spirit of the law it's one of those things so I love how you're qualifying baptism as an act of faith

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I've even said that many many times and so one thing and you know I'm a dr.

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white fan dr. John MacArthur and you know I'm very reformational so something that I've bought into just as you know terms that have came throughout church history is you know faith alone you kind of have this quote -unquote dichotomy of faith alone or in air quotes faith plus works now a lot of people that debate with and interact with don't say that that's not a true dichotomy or a true representation of their position

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I'm like you know fair I want you know I hear amount and so the more that I've continued to listen and interact

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I think the thing that we all agree with at the initial onset is we all believe a true saving faith will work right what's the verse in Galatians faith working love and so I wanted to say we all start there and I wanted to ask you and this isn't a gotcha question anything

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I'm just trying to you know soak up more information about who you are so I can figure out the best questions to ask you one day in front of a crowd but I'm hoping it'll be

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Calvinism because that's yeah that's

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I just to me that stands and falls yeah so the way

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I when we have that true living faith and and I have to go down the road of telling people we're not talking about a census or a scenting to facts right kind of what

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Pistou Oh sometimes can be just a scenting to facts like the demons do versus a pest is something that truly trust in Christ and so that's more of the

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Reformational side of things and I want to know if you're saying that we're justified before God when that true living faith works a particular action like baptism

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X 238 2016 Galatians 320 you know all the rest does that make sense of how

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I'm saying that there does seem to be a dichotomy but if we word it differently it's it's okay when is that true living faith just fast before God is it when we do have it internally that only us and God knows or when it works a like that I see

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I think I see what you're talking about as far as that economy the reality is as far as I'm concerned the

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Bible doesn't ever get so specific as to especially in the New Testament articulate like the moment other than if it's the clearest thing we have when it gets specific is in passages like acts 238 when he says repent and be baptized so if a person does that we know because he says now so there are there are much more verses that talk about they just say things like justified or saved by faith okay well we can read on that and then that's when the question comes at which moment well it doesn't ever define the moment exactly doesn't talk about well here's the moment but what it does say when it gets specific is repent and be baptized and so I at least so my conclusion comes well what

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I'm gonna say when I'm gonna tell people is that when your faith when you do this this is this is saving faith so the

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Bible doesn't ever speak about faith as if just when you believe in your heart and in that moment the oftentimes faith is expressed as when it occurs in act

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I'm gonna give an example okay and I know we're okay so my example is in Hebrews 1130 surprise surprise okay so well now so here's the question well now my question to you

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I'm just rhetorically so when the text says when the text says that by faith the walls of Jericho came down okay

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I think everybody can concede that they had faith before they took the first step okay so here's a here's a text where we're said something happens by faith okay but we actually know from what it says and from the story itself that at least in this occasion that that didn't happen when they first in their heart trust but when their faith led them to obey

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God because you see that's what that's what their faith was in other words God says hey if you do do this and I'm gonna bring down these walls

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I'm gonna do the impossible for you and bring down these walls now you could either say are you kidding

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I'm gonna do all that and trust or you could say and they did say I trust God and so when they did what

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God said that was their faith although they obviously had faith in him before they took the first step so at least in this what we can learn from this

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Jeremiah and I know usually people say that's not a salvation passage yet that's not my point my point is here's

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Bible saying something about what faith means now here's an instance when something happens because of faith and in this instance they got something because of the faith they got this this is a gift and this was the walls coming down so here's something they get and it's by faith but what we can concede and I think is absolutely undebatable is well but we debated anyway right but so but but it should be undebatable on my mind that when the

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Bible says something can come from faith it does not necessitate that it means the moment you believe if further information tells you well have faith doing this so I've said a lot

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I did what I do what James White does occasionally I give long answers but yeah you know he gives long answers sometimes and that's okay but so I guess what

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I'm saying is it doesn't really elaborate on the moment but you do have this information like acts 238 and I just want to say

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I am NOT one who bases everything on one verse I think

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James that people that believe in the command of baptism for salvation you know and maybe there are but I don't

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I based it upon a number of passes that's kind of the clearest of the passage about baptism but so that's my answer and I it was kind of long but did you understand it

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I've made a few mental notes watching your debates

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I saw that your best friend Sonny Hernandez that's a joke by the way when he debated a

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Lutheran I made note that you asked a particular question about acts 238 so I've put that in the back of my mind and I've made a middle note ready for when

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I need to explain the woman who touched out and grabbed the garment of Christ and the walls of Jericho so I'm keeping notes on you yeah well you don't have to keep notes cuz it's all right here on YouTube now yes you're a gentleman and a scholar and I just want to thank you for bringing clarity to these issues they're important but you have a way of being able to be respectful and to have a good dialogue so that's why when you're like hey what do you think about it in person today

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I was like oh heck yeah you're someone I would definitely want to do that with so we'll make it happen one of these days all right well

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I appreciate you calling in and we'll we'll keep in touch there but I appreciate it

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Jeremiah all right so everybody look forward to a future in -person debate you

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Lord will me and Jeremiah gonna talk that out okay now so we're going back to the video now and this really touches on everything we me and Jeremiah just or that I talked about in response to what he was asking me let's

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I'm gonna back it up a little bit more brothers what we do who's the we say

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I'm almost all the time the conversation is you know this is this is general means of salvation for everybody is to be baptized so and so forth these are

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Jews saying to fellow Jews because they call the men and brethren we've crucified our

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Messiah is there any hope for us is there any hope for us that's the that's the context if that's not oh by the way in case anybody doesn't know this is

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Jeremiah here the one the gentleman they called earlier earlier but just remember ask this question of James what are you saying well these are

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Jews so so what whatever

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Peter says to them isn't applicable to anybody else because remember the question wants his answer to do with eyes and the relation of baptism in the in the in the verse so James says this is a particular context spoken to Jews okay so what are you saying

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James are you saying that if you're a Jew you're saved differently and if not then what's the emphasis on the

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Jews about yeah he's talking to Jews we get that but is Peter if you're not a mid -ax dispensationalist or a hyper dispensationalist and he's not most

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Calvinists are not most evangelicals are not so if you're not then what does he's talking to Jews mean for acts 238 now

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I've listened to James a long time but I haven't it's been a long time since I have listened to him lately unless I'm missing that he was a dispensationalist am

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I missing some now I know MacArthur is now maybe if he's a dispensationalist maybe that's what I'm missing here maybe

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I have just completely forgotten does anybody know if James White is a dispensationalist now

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Jeremiah see you you made the mistake Jeremiah you keep listening and now you're tempted to get back into it you see that's what happens to me when

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I was listening to James why you know I was thinking can I ask this question see it could be tempted yeah you can call in you can call in if you want it's irresistible man it's irresistible debate that's yes it can't be resisted like the

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Holy Spirit I thought I could bring some clarity in what I think dr.

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white saying I deal in these same realms okay yeah so before you do that that's important to me because I'm not trying to misrepresent him now obviously because I didn't ask him what did you mean by that so if I have not understood him that's exactly what

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I'm gonna ask because it is always important to know what a person is actually saying I don't want to straw man somebody

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I want to steal man yes absolutely I think you do a good job of that so especially when you're like is dr.

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white dispensationalist I literally yelled at my TV as I was like no he's so here's why

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I think dr. white is getting out and this is a position I would hold to you do in death the book of Acts you have an emphasis on baptism but baptism is present later in Acts 10 with Cornelius represent the

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Gentiles but the way that I read it is there's an emphasis on baptism as a call to repentance like you've rightly said you know this is a demonstration or an now why is he making a big deal about that with the

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Jews now he goes into the whole reason about you know what must we do and his explanation of that is all the cursings of Deuteronomy 28 29 like we're doomed right and then his his thing is no just repent so which my argument is always repent and repentance and faith is always you know two sides of the same coin which you know my argument would be justifies and demonstrate that faith to the world i .e.

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your baptism in the name and authority of Jesus Christ the triune God and so that's significant for the

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Jews dr. why is saying because that would mean whole book of Hebrews they're leaving their

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Judaism now now you break make a good point now we're not saying just the

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Jews are to be baptized Cornelius and then they were baptized the Ethiopian eunuch was baptized so what's the difference well baptism is a call to you know new way of life

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I identify with this person with Jesus Christ right and so I don't know if you saw my comment earlier

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I was trying to say okay in a different context let's say you have someone dealing in the realm of homosexuality right are they still going to have to repent believe and then demonstrate that faith and baptism yes but in that particular gospel proclamation they need to realize that counting the cost of discipleship following after Christ means their whole life and so what that would surface in their mind is oh man

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I gotta leave this life of sin that the thing that I love most you know at this whatever habitual sin

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I have to turn in my heart from loving it loving Christ yes so I think that's the big push for why baptism is mentioned the way that it is in Acts 238 maybe

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I didn't explain that super well maybe you can ask me some clarity on them well

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I mean I get the point about it being emphasized I've said the same thing pretty much because the stress of Peter to be baptized in the name of Jesus the reason he says that is because they just killed

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Jesus and so well I mean at least in some way are involved and so what he's saying is since you were opposing him to the point of killing him now you need to be baptized in his name meaning this is how you're going to now be in allegiance with him by being baptized in the very name of the man you killed that's it's very appropriate that he would say that because that's the particular form of repentance that is most important you know

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I'm sure some of those Jews had told a lie before but didn't say and stop lying and you know baptism because you need to now be aligned and in the very man in you know being in Christ the man that you just killed so I get the emphasis part but it's still do it for the forgiveness sin so what was clear and James answer is in order to get both forgiveness of sins and the gift of Holy Spirit they did have to repent and they did have to be baptized don't you think that was clear in his answer it's funny

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I was telling Jenny here and I was like you're gonna get up there and ask me a question and be like all right Jeremiah says this dr.

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white do you agree with it or vice versa I'm like no don't do this to us but like you said you know not everybody's perfect and so there are a with white on and even old

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Johnny Mac but well I hope you disagree more at Johnny Mac than you do with James to be honest with you well

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I love my New Testament study notes from Mac but yeah over time as I refine down what what

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Mac you know a lot of it says eschatology and dispensationalism I'm like yeah that that influences so many other doctrines

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I wanted to make this point so I got debated Brock Kendall well before you make that point can

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I say one thing about you said yeah I'm not trying to pitch you against him it's just that I don't have him here to ask you know what

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I'm saying and so well the thing is we we don't really contact dr.

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white he contacts us so we don't abuse our contact information with them so I don't

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I don't call him up every day or anything like that yeah okay okay now you're gonna make another try to make heads or tails of acts 238 because I was asked this in a public debate earlier this year you know like what's going on you got the coordinating conjunction repent and be baptized right and I'm like yeah so this is my submission

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I put a lot of emphasis on the definite article so I don't have the verse in in front of me but it says for the forgiveness now remind me do all translations say your sins or just as these sins

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I don't know about all translations I don't think all of them have your sins

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I'm not are you talking about translation differences or manuscript differences translations so just kind of how the word gets ordered so to me when

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I see some discrepancy I'm like okay what's the underlying substance of what's being communicated so because I've had a lot of I'll say people you know bring up I think it's

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Matthew 26 helped me out 38 around there to the Lord's Supper when it says almost identical phrase for the forgiveness of sins yeah my blood which is poured out for the forgiveness of sins so this is kind of my take on actually 38 because I do think it being a

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Jewish context is important because the emphasis there and their call to repentance that phrase is not only used in Matthew's part there but also in 26 but also with John the

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Baptist and so my position is that John's baptism did not wash away sins but it was a call to repentance to the people of Israel since he was paving the way for Messiah when he mentions for the forgiveness of sins

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I put that as him pointing to Calvary something that Messiah is going to fully accomplish and then

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I said if you follow that train of thought to the night before his crucifixion at the Lord's Supper that's exactly what

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Jesus is saying about take this bread representing my body drink the wine representing my blood he is saying he's kind of preparing them for what's about to happen at Calvary you know

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I'm not I'm not Lutheran so I don't believe in consubstantiation or Roman Catholics of you I do take a very spirit field memorial service is kind of how we've said it at 12 five but very close to a

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Calvin taught with the real presence point is Jesus and then at the Lord's Supper is pointing to what's about to be accomplished at Calvary and so my take on actually 38 is he's calling the

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Jews to repent and believe and demonstrate that faith and repentance and when he says for the forgiveness of sins the signifies a point back in time to Calvary the forgiveness of sins that was accomplished to that Jesus accomplished and then that's personally applied to you with your repentance and so forth so that's how

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I argued that verse well that sounds like the it sounds like you're meaning that ice means because of it so it's a because of argument but it's more typifying to the phrase for the forgiveness of sins as what

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Jesus accomplished so yes it's it's it's not I can't on I so much as for the forgiveness of sins and how that's used in the

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Gospels and then how X continues to use the word for because he uses the word receive later in the verse because you know when we get into the dance of what is poor mean

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I sometimes say he could have used the word receive there and he did but he does later in the verse with the

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Holy Spirit he does later in Acts 10 and Acts 26 but I mean ultimately that concept requires that for as you said

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I think mean because of but so you're saying that way you're putting the emphasis more on forgiveness but that doesn't work without ice meaning because of so is the typical argument ice meaning for unto is just because it's the majority reading throughout acts or throughout the

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Gospels and it's a minority view to see it as a I prefer the word act like we read about Jonah the people did they repented at and then we would interpret that as because of the message preached which is interesting because it's a similar context to what

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Peter's doing because he's preaching well no it's not my argument is not the majority actually

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I don't believe it ever means because of even in that text I just I didn't lay that out but I said if even if it is the minority even if there are some verses that do it the burden of proof

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I mean you need a lot to say well in this text it certainly does but the flow is

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I think what James I agree with James is that the context is about we've done something greatly offensive to God we killed our own

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Messiah what do we do here's what you do to get forgiven for that crime and I think the flow of thought works perfectly well with receiving the ice being in order to but my position is not that it ever means because of now what

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I said earlier was that it sounds like there are some verses which two English ears mean because I've been that's one of the ones

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I met is the Jonah one now I don't know you you called to clarify

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I don't know if you want to go back and forth with me but but yeah I don't mind so if you have a question for me

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I could have some more thoughts but this is your show so you tell me what you want well I mean but you know it's a kind of it's an interactive show but what

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I was saying about the Jonah verse is that to English ears we would say they repented because of the preaching of Jonah but the question is you don't come at it from an

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English perspective and I wouldn't die on this hill because I mean

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I can go on and on about no it doesn't mean this and by the way Dan Wallace I believe would agree with me here but to say they repented at the preaching of Jonah the word is ice obviously that the

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King James at least says at and so to an English ears we would say well that means because of but you don't come at it starting in an

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English perspective you start with the Greek and since the overwhelming evidence both outside of the

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Bible and inside is that it means like a four -word pointing thing then you you start with that it's a how would a

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Greek understand that statement and how and I think I read this in Wallace maybe

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I'm mistaken read it somewhere else but the idea is simply that they're they're preaching or rather their repentance conformed to the preaching of Jonah so that his preaching is put for the content they repented into or toward his preaching now to English that's very awkward but you got to remember that ice is using some very odd ways in the

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Greek that we wouldn't simply use the preposition like that in English for one example would be when he says he talks about marriage and he spit he says

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I speak concerning a mystery I speak concerning Christ and the church actually the word he uses eyes but how do you use that preposition in English for that statement what the

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Greeks did in their mind they can use that and make sense so that's what I believe I believe since if we start with the

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Greek meaning as established and as it is as it can be found in the writing and the overwhelming evidence of ice is that it means something along the lines of in order to or toward or into you start with that and then you say how did the

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Greek understand this now so that would be my answer that it doesn't ever mean because but yes no and very similar because I've looked at this because like said on to unto could be a reference in time so when

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I back to actually 38 for the forgiveness of sin I could almost understand as Peter saying look unto what was accomplished at Calvary so it was past tense but I feel like that's what then the the domain of ice saying hey look unto

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Christ what he did at Calvary and you know I try not to build that this is why

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I like with Brock in February I didn't go into the Greeks to try to you know make a huge case because I always want the context to you know scream louder and if I can confirm that within the

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Greek then to me that's just icing on the cake but going back to like Jonah and then invites from my understanding it just seemed like it made a lot of sense like they repented at the preaching of John Jonah preached the world's shortest sermon he didn't want to say more than what he had to God was already preparing their hearts and then so they repented at that and then going back to dr.

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White's point about the Jews really being baptized in the name of Jesus why

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I was so significant I'm in the chat I was putting it's a similar concept to the rich young ruler as you know my mind salvation has always been by grace through faith

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Old Testament Saints New Testament Saints same mechanism and so when Jesus said go and sell all of your possessions then you have treasure in heaven he's putting his finger on the main thing that captivated his heart's

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Creed as well and so a true call to repentance looks at your sin whether that be you know in second simple

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Judaism and all that system that's wrapped up in well it's a complete reform it's a complete trust in the person work of Jesus and that would call them to renounce the way that the book of Hebrews says hey leave these types and shadows you know find their fulfillment in Christ and so in the the pagan world

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I think we see more isolated we see more examples of what that call of repentance would would look like you know if you got a drunkard they hear the gospel presentation to them they're gonna be baptized like you said actually 38 isn't just for the

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Jews that's why we see water baptism all throughout acts but in that gospel presentation I would say similar to the

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Jews someone that struggled with drunkenness or whatever sin they're realizing wow in my heart this is a call to turn from loving that particular thing and so I think we kind of touched on this but that's the big emphasis that dr.

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white was making on with x238 well that's really seemingly what I took from it but just like your example though with the rich ruler when he was told sell all your possessions so we would concede then that in order for him to be saved by grace through faith he has to do that I mean that has to be what he does and if he doesn't he doesn't really believe anyway and can't be saved so here's something so I think you just really conceded my point which is you see grace through faith and you you had made the point about grace to faith right before you use that example so by somebody doing something or in this case obeying

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Christ by giving all your possessions this would be salvation by grace through faith because he's trusting Christ he isn't earning anything so that really isn't inconsistent with anything

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I say that sometimes Christ requires you to do something and by doing it this is grace through faith but of course you know this is an instance furthermore that we agree is only for him but I think you already agreed and I know you fully believe that baptism is universally commanded for everybody unlike you know so the dispensation list the hypers of course they concede well it does require it for the

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Jews but it doesn't for everybody else so I don't know I think see there's in the back you and I are on the same page you just don't realize we are closer than a lot of people that I talked with specific on this subject only names but I think the big disagreement obviously goes back to how

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I understand Romans 4 I think it's how we define the word work

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I think I have a very hard definition and then the question I asked you earlier about you know when we're justified before God is at the moment that he knows sees our heart that truly trusts the

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Savior or is it when that faith has worked in particular action like baptism that I would argue my particular take on James 2 would say there's a vindication before man happening there so those are the deeper issues going on but on the surface

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I do think we are a lot slow at least with me and you we're a lot closer than a lot of other people they start getting into this same discussion it sounds like though that you had a different take on James 2 than James no we would hold identical facts what

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I've learned is from him okay well okay well

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I just heard what I'm saying and I've heard James talk about these things in times past because I listened to him for years but it's been a long time since I've actually listened to him now but because he was talking about it is a set faith well that is my position and by the way and I'm not gonna spend all the time are right now but it doesn't start in 14 and he said you got to go back to 14 everybody says that it doesn't start in 14 it starts in one

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I mean all these verses about you know if you the man who hears the word or here's the law but doesn't do it this is all the same guy it's the guy who's religious in his speech but isn't carrying it out in his actions it's all it does not start at 14 but anyway

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I won't get on my lecture about James 2 you know but uh okay well

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I appreciate you calling it again and don't don't get tempted to debate baptism because I don't

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I want to debate Calvinism I mean that's well it's funny because I was like man I wish me and a cake to just debate salvation or justification by faith alone but most of the debate would be defining terms to figure out 95 % is on the same page and at the end we're like oh we finally figured out where we differ and now it's over why don't we debate for a week and debate every topic there is

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I like it well we'll definitely do that I look forward to a K thanks for letting me chime in again