Cultish: Introducing Christianity to Mormons, Pt 2

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All right, welcome back ladies and gentlemen to Cultish entering the king of the cults.

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My name is Jeremiah Roberts one of the co -hosts here. I Am that we're back with Eric Johnson good to have you back.

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Thanks for having me on guys. Awesome We're here. Of course Andrew in your super -secret headquarters and really loving this set.

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We're all squished in together It's a little more condensed than the cedar that I'm used to but I'm really enjoying the time here

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So we are talking about your book which is now available. It's on Amazon. It's on Christian bookstores comm just tell them everyone really quickly about the book and Where yeah, what it's all about real quick in case you're jumping in introducing

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Christianity Mormons a practical and comparative guide to what the Bible teaches focuses on using the

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Bible to be able to explain what Christianity is and Help Latter -day Saints to get rid of the false stereotypes.

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They might have about what Christianity is so I'm hoping that this will be a book that will be helpful for Christians as Well as possibly to give it to a

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Latter -day Saint that they could understand by reading it themselves. Okay, excellent So we're gonna kind of jump into a couple of the chapters in the book and we're gonna maybe the second part of this

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Episode just so everyone knows this is part two of our conversation with Eric Johnson You definitely check out part one if you haven't already really enjoyed that before we jump in You said you had some interactions with the late.

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Dr. Walter Martin. Just tell us about that real quickly Well, he was a hero of mine as he is apparently to you guys

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Dr. Martin, I I met him for the first time in and the only time actually in 1987 when

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I did a short -term mission in Utah he He debated a gentleman named

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Van Hill in Park City at a hotel there and the place was packed out I'll never forget how he calmly, but coolly

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Eliminated the the I thought bad ideas that dr Van Hill had and I thought you can see this

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I think on the internet I think there's tapes of it out there that you can watch the whole debate but we came away thinking he really did a good job of explaining that Mormonism is is a

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Cult if you want to call it that and he had the book kingdom of the cult. So he certainly Use that word, but what

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I'll probably remember even more is that weekend he spoke in a former

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Chapel of Brigham Young right across the street from the State Capitol here in Salt Lake City, and it was a smaller place but it was packed with Christians a

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Church at that time had rented that on Sundays that that building and he's a former

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Relative Brigham Young he delivered a Sermon on Jesus and I don't think it was taped

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I just remember at the time and I was going to seminary at the time I thought that is the best sermon

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I have ever heard on Jesus because he just taught about Jesus as who he really was focusing on his deity that Jesus is enough

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And I sure wish there was a tape of that if there was I would love to hear that because he actually stopped at the very beginning of his talk and there was a tear in his eye and he said this is an important moment for me because I'm a relative of Walter of Brigham Young and Walter Martin then

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Said here I am standing in the same place where Brigham Young delivered heresy and I want to speak to you the truth

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Wow Hey, what's up everyone? Have you ever wanted to get behind the microphone and chat with myself and Andrew the super sleuth of the show here at cultish?

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Well, guess what you get to do exactly that this October October 27th through the 29th at reform con

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It's gonna be a great and awesome live converse is gonna be a lot of great speakers So if you want to get behind a microphone with myself and Andrew the super sleuth of the show go to reform con

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Or get your tickets right now October 27th to the 29th and can't wait to meet you all there and have a great conversation now back to the episode

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Yeah, that that's incredible. And I think there's this moments like that It's always cool to see that.

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I mean Walter Martin was very just liturgistic, you know, and he'd pray He'd pray in King James English, you know, and they would just kind of have what he would do.

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I remember I've listened to it Thousand I mean, I don't know if it's in the thousands

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But a lot of times is the dialogue of the doorstep with a Mormon It's the back -and -forth conversation at the very end when they're talking with They're kind of wrapping it up and I forget the guy's name, but he's sort of who's portraying the

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Mormon a Decker a Decker yes, and they he's sort of doing the confetti and he starts just to pray towards the

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Lord, but then right before the very very end when in in the

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Conversation where Ed Decker is about to accept the Lord He kind of they almost like break the fourth wall and it's like a

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Decker goes back to his old self when he first accepted Christ and came out of Mormonism and then Walter Martin is still like in character like leading him to the

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Lord and it's like you can see Walter Martin like break The fourth wall goes you can only hear the audio but you can hear

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Walter Martin like gets you what he goes from doing this fun conversation with a lot of humor But he gets very you can hear him just the emotion behind that when he's telling him to like to let ask

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Christ to be Your Savior. It's so cool Yeah, so let's just jump into it I think that's also been just important because we were talking about all the different aspects of people who are leaving the church

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People who don't really know what they believe anymore People who are jaded because they come out of Mormonism become atheists or agnostic people even who are getting sucked into the

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Fundamentalist groups we talked about that in part one so there's a lot of categories in your book and so very that one of the very first chapters you have the introduction and Then you started at the

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Bible God's Revelation. Why'd you start chapter one with the Bible as the foundation? Well, actually the first two chapters have to do with the

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Bible of the ten chapters I wanted to make sure that I gave a good reason for The Bible as being the standard authority for what

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Christians believe because without the Bible or having that authority I call it God's special revelation without that.

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We have nothing but mere opinion and unfortunately in Mormonism article 8 That was the 13 articles of faith created by Joseph Smith found in the early

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Great Price one of the four standard works in the LDS Church Says that the Bible is true only as far as is translated correctly.

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I think that's incorrect first off Translated correctly. I would agree with that. The New World Translation is a horrible translation

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Translations can be bad, but they don't mean translated in the sense of one language to the other they mean transmission of the text and When it comes to the transmission of the text

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I think we have very good authority to be able to say that the

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Bible is God's Word And it is true. It's inerrant as it was originally written and we have very good copies 5 ,000

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Greek copies 24 ,000 and other languages We have full

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New Testament's going back to the 4th century Codex Vaticanus Codex Sinaiticus Codex Alexandrinus three complete copies when those three all agree

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Scholars say that is what the original said but when we have so many other pieces to be able to work from and the

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Old Testament is the Dead Sea Scrolls those documents that we have from from these discoveries help us to know that this is a place that is

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Israel is the place where these biblical events took place These are real people that were there real sites that you can visit today as I take people every year to Israel to To stand on the actual places where the

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Bible is happening and then real Events, I mean think about the event that took place in this around 700

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BC Lakish was destroyed by the Assyrians. Well, you can go and visit

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Lakish today and see the ramp built 2 ,700 years ago It's there the the story that's talked about in the

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Bible that Sennacherib went and destroyed it's there and then King King Hezekiah built a

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Tunnel a water tunnel from the Gihon Spring in 1750 feet he brought the water into the old city because of what

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Sennacherib was going to do and and so we have that Today they've rediscovered it in the 19th century.

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So I think archaeology along with history Very valuable and helping us to know that the

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Bible is something that's trustworthy and can be believed Yeah, so in terms of like some apologetics and speaking with your

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LDS neighbor When they even use terms like insofar as it's translated correctly or it's missing many plain and precious parts

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How do they shoot themselves essentially in the foot when they try to quote from the Bible? That is a great question because if you're going to use

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James 1 5 as the verse that Joseph Smith supposedly read That he could pray for For wisdom.

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I mean, it's not even wisdom that he got he's looking for knowledge. Is the church true? It is a book is is which of the denominations is the true denomination?

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What about 1st Corinthians 15 29? That's the one verse that every Latter -day Saint likes to utilize to support the idea that baptism for the dead is true but if you take away the

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Veracity of the Bible and say well, I can't really trust it then you're right

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How can you cite these other passages that are not trustworthy either? You can't have it both ways.

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Mm -hmm. That's good That's good. Let me ask you this too because you're going through all these evidence these aspects of evidence, which

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I think is awesome Though through the lens though when you're talking with someone who's Mormon I'll just read it just so everyone knows would the

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Anyone who if you have a someone who's a Latter -day Saint their friend or neighbor they have the 13 articles of faith

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From a very young age. They're taught to memorize. These are my classmates were in their seminary class across the street

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But the high school I attended they're going through the 13 articles of faith so the eighth article of faith of their belief says we believe the

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Bible to be the Word of God as So as far as it is translated correctly, we also believe the

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Book of Mormon to be the Word of God So when you're presenting these evidences from a

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Mormon's perspective they're still viewing the evidence that you're portraying through the lens of that pre commitment to the idea of the

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Bible only being translated correctly How do you how do you kind of get past them because them weighing the evidence?

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They're kind of playing judge with the evidence You're presenting them or give us some examples of what? Conversations actually look like when you're bringing up the authority of the

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Bible reliability of the Bible as I said on the first part of the show I The last show

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I don't believe that many Latter -day Saints really understand article 8 and so I like to ask them

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Can you please explain to me when you just said that the Bible is true as far as it's translated correctly

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What do you mean by that? They start to tell me well You know corrupt priests that came in and they added and subtracted things and we can't really know what was said

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And so the plain and precious parts you mentioned You know, we can't really depend on the

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Bible and I say well, can I help you understand that? That's not Translation you're talking about transmission.

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How do you think the Bible was transmitted? How did it get to us? Over and over again

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I'd like to ask questions and I'll say do you even know what languages the Bible were written in?

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Latin is oftentimes the answer well, no No, it was coin a Greek in the New Testament in the

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Old Testament. It was Hebrew and some Aramaic How did it get transmitted to us?

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Well One guy actually wrote something down and then the next guy he writes the same thing down and then you know

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And it's kind of like the telephone game and I actually talk about the telephone game. I think it's in chapter two

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Yeah that they say well, you know Obviously it gets distorted as from one person to the next and they almost think it's a it's an oral type of thing

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That's going on here. No, it's written down. These are the certainly there is copying that's going down But it's written down so that we can go back and see the previous one and sometimes there are some glitches

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There's no doubt about it. What do we do? We go to the earliest most accurate manuscripts when we have different passages.

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The scholars have put those together You can actually purchase a copy of the Greek New Testament and it has ratings of the different possibilities of variants

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But if you listen to a guy like Bart Ehrman Misquoting Jesus and by the way, Latter -day Saints like to quote

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Bart Ehrman all the time, right? That doesn't make any sense He's an atheist. He doesn't like the Bible. Why are you quoting?

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Why are you quoting a guy that will use a telephone game and other things like that to try to Disparage the

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Word of God if the if the Bible is worthy to be studied And I believe it is 2nd

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Timothy 3 16 that says that all scripture is inspired which scriptures are referring to he's obviously

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Referring to the Old Testament, but if you keep reading in the verse, I think it's 18 It talks about talk.

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It talks about the scripture referring to Jesus Well, I it's obvious to me that the the

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New Testament Apostles knew they were writing scripture 2nd Peter 3 16 Peter said that Paul's writings were very hard to understand but they were scripture

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So if these guys understood that they were writing scripture, then this is what God's Word was

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Do we have the autographs? We don't Latter -day Saint. Do you have any autographs of?

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Let's say the Book of Mormon any of the books there know the plates were all taken So we don't have the autographs there.

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Does that affect your? Understanding of the accuracy of the Book of Mormon and they'll say well,

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I mean they don't have let's just be honest They do not have An article 8 for the

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Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is true as far as it's translated correctly They ought to because there have been several thousand changes since it was first printed in 1830 and and so I'm going to I'm gonna be trying my best to ask questions to see what they know about the process

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And then I have citations and I included one in the book here of LDS writers

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Academics who say the the Bible is 99 and 44 100 pure they actually have said that yeah in conferences and it's like, okay, so what this guy seems to be pretty knowledgeable and So, you know and then they like to also point out contradictions

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Mike whenever they bring that out What do you do you ask the question Which contradictions are you referring to and then they'll oftentimes give you one and I always like to ask the question

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Well, is that the best you have if I'm able to answer that then will you believe the

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Bible is accurate and true? Yeah, well, no, I won't answer them just as Jesus said, you know, he did the same kind of a thing and he says neither will

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I answer you because Pearls before swine and I'm not saying Latter -day Saints are swine. I love

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Latter -day Saints. Otherwise, I wouldn't have moved to Utah Yeah at the same time I think it's unfair that they want to disparage the

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Bible when as you pointed out earlier Andrew They're using the Bible whenever it suits their purposes

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They just don't like a lot of the things that it says that contradict what they believe, right? I mean we have the autographs to of the book of breathings the papyri that supposedly

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Joseph Smith Translated into the book of Abraham and he was a hundred and ten percent incorrect with every single little translation that he made

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The church admits to that in the gospel topics essay that was printed I think it was 2015 that's found on their church website

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That it's a spiritual translation. Well You can do anything and the book of Moses same thing

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I mean, they don't even have a manuscript to go with the book of Moses that just came out of his mind Well, if you think that a man has such power to translate something that says something completely different common funeral papyri and You're able to create

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Doctrine out of it because Mormons do get doctrine out of the book of Abraham and the and the book of Moses as well

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They're doing a come follow me It's it's a it's a study that the

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Mormons do weekly. And so this year they're studying the Old Testament They took the first five weeks of this and studied the first eleven chapters of Genesis I mean we're talking only a one -year program five weeks eleven chapters of Genesis and Then they also included ten chapters from Abraham and Moses as part of a study on the

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Old Testament Well, it has no manuscript evidence talk about having nothing to support yourself with I have a problem with that because they're including the idea and then the gods they make

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God into plural Well, where does the idea that there are true gods multiple gods? It's not found in the

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Bible It's found in the pearly great price Wow And it bothers me too and they say as a spiritual translation

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I mean if you look at the 1843 times and seasons where the book of Abraham was first published in very big bold black letters all caps it says a

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Translation by Joseph Smith. I didn't say a spiritual translation. It says a translation there's even copies of some of his writings of how he

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Supposedly took characters and then wrote him into whole sentences or whole paragraphs I mean to me that doesn't seem like a spiritual translation.

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It seems like you really tried It's just kind of save face But one thing I hear on the street all the time, maybe you can talk about this is the concept of the

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Trinity, right? I hear it all the time. They go. Well such as it's it's such a Confusing a hard topic for some of them to wrap their heads around since they have

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God reinterpreted to them through Manly ways that they can grasp but when they hear something about the

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Trinity in the beautiful infiniteness of God They think it's just too complicated to be true

18:07

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So we thank you all for watching us and now back to the episode Well, and and this is the thing about God.

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He is transcendent. He is above our thoughts The Bible says that my ways are not your ways and I think what the

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Latter -day Saint wants to do is take God and put him into a box and Be able to say here is our

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God here is our view of salvation. Where did we come from? Why are we here?

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Where are we going? We have the answers to this, but I think if you ask a Latter -day Saint If he has all the answers, he will admit he doesn't by asking the question

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Do you believe the couplet by Lorenzo Snow as man is God once was that's the first half

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The second half is as God is man may be you believe that first half and they go. Yes. I said, okay

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So let me get this straight. Do you believe that God was once a human being on another realm another world if you will?

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Oh, yes, I do. Okay. So can you explain to me? You know, was he a sinner? Oh We find most

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Latter -day Saints will say yeah, he had to have been a sinner I guess they haven't thought about it, but I guess he must have been

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Whoa, that is huge because so God was once a sinner he had to die

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They say well, yeah, the Bible says the wages of sin is death Romans 6 23. So that's quite incredible Can you tell me a little bit about the

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God he worshipped and what about that God and what was his God that he worshipped?

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In fact, can you help me to understand where the first God came from and you know what they'll say? Well that goes way beyond my pay grade.

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I I don't know. That's kind of a mystery. Oh Okay. So when it comes to mystery you have a mystery

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You don't have all the answers your God that supposedly was all in a box. There's a lot of mystery we don't know who he is and You know

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So I think when you bring that out to a Latter -day Saint and help him to understand that if he has a mystery

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I think we're allowed to have mystery and I think it's appropriate because The minute you think you have

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God all figured out who becomes omniscient, right? You become the omniscient one

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God is the one who has been figured out and so I don't think we can fully grasp him

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We can get his we can understand the major characteristics of who he is But we'll never fully understand his mind or his nature

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These are mysteries that will be I think unveiled to us in in heaven. Yeah.

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What do you think about? the claims of The Bible being put together by Constantine or assembled at the

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Council of Nicaea Do you see those claims still being made by folks who are LDS? I remember hearing that a lot

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Not not lately, but in college. It was a big big thing Maybe it's around me because of the

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Da Vinci Code, but that was a big thing. And what about you? I think you still see that idea

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Because when the Trinity gets brought out, you know that they're oftentimes they'll say oh that was from pagan

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Background the Greeks and the Romans and all the rest and and so I say can you pinpoint that for me?

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And usually they like to say well there was there was like this Council. They don't know when it was it was 325 8325

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Council of Nicaea And so then I'll say and I'll say well the Council of Nicaea yeah, yeah, that's the one

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Okay, so what happened at the Council of Nicaea? Let them explain to you what they know Well, they'll usually explain to you that they don't know what the

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Council of Nicaea was about because either they'll say well that's where they put together all the books of the Bible or they'll talk about how the

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Trinity was created and That's where so much heresy came in, you know

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Because soon after the death of the Apostles the great apostasy there is no more authority on this earth

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So so that's what they'll say. I'll say no That's not what was that they had nothing to do with the books of the

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Bible that gets taken care of as far as the Old Testament we accept what the Jews did at the

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Council of Jamnia between 90 and 120 We accept that what we have is 39 books

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They actually have is 22, but the same books are there So we've never really debated the Old Testament as far as the

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New Testament We've had going into the 3rd century all the way through the 4th century and it was finalized at 397 at the

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Council of Carthage, but the Council of Nicaea had nothing to do with that It had nothing to do with creating the

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Trinity rather They were dealing with the issue is Jesus a created being or is he

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God in the flesh? That was what 325 bishops Did at that council was a very important council because it eliminated what's called

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Arianism guy named Arius was the heretic and Jehovah's Witnesses today are Followers of Arius if you will, they're true

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Arians in the belief that Jesus is not God no, the Bible teaches he is both

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God and man and We call it the hypostatic Union 100 %

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God 100 % man Latter -day Saints don't believe that Jesus is fully God in the same sense that Heavenly Father is

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So we have a problem with our view on who God is That's so good And what can you clarify to a lot of fundamental misunderstandings as well is with Scripture in general people think that there's men who?

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Authorize what is in Scripture or what is the canon in general? But there's simply more of a recognition of what was already there.

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Can you explain that a little bit more to you? I mean, there was a guy named Athanasius who was involved at the Council of Nicaea and He came up with a list in the 350s of the 27

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New Testament books And these are the same 27 books that had been talked about earlier in the third century there

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There was some debate. I mean there there was a debate about some of the pastoral

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Epistles we I think Peter, you know 2nd Peter I think Was discussed 2nd and 3rd

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John James, you know that there was some issues with that But overall they came together and they just said this is the list that's authoritative

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And like I said, it was finalized in Carthage in 397 Council what was the other council?

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I forget the name of it, but they they did have discussions to try to figure this out and Listen, I mean what other books should be in the

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New Testament canon I mean I asked a Latter -day Saint well, you know should some of the Gnostic Gospels There are some who would advocate for that, but that doesn't really correspond with Mormon teaching

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What books should have been left out? I mean the book that they might have left out was the the book of James that's one of their favorite books to go to so I don't think they want to get rid of the book of James and So, you know scholars have looked at this even in the 21st century and they would agree those 27 books were meant to be

25:35

Mm -hmm. Yeah, so I Appreciate that and this is really really good If anyone wants to get the full book you can look at the chapters that specific chapter in your book is very very good

25:45

And again, we're talking much a book introducing Christianity to Mormons, which is now available for sale or over Amazon Christian is it

25:54

Christian books calm Christian books calm and you could definitely check that out I so chapter 3 is called the existence of God and I want to maybe just tap into my immediate gut reaction when

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I just saw that title Mormons they believe in God. They believe in the existence of God.

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They just have a different concept Concept than Christians. They believe that God is an exalted man who has a body of flesh and bone

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But why was you need to talk to Mormons about the existence of God and I write that chapter? I knew that people would say that and so in the beginning

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I actually talk about why this Chapter in a book that's supposed to be introducing Christianity Mormons.

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And the reason why is Jana Reese's book the next Mormons from 2019 said that 45 % of people who leave the church go to atheism agnosticism or nothing at all much more than they would go to the

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Christian Church and I talked to a lot of these folks I talked to hundreds of people who have left who have become atheists and And so I think if we're talking to people who are interested who are willing to hear what we have to say about Christianity It's probably because maybe they're doubting as a

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Mormon and they're not a true blue is not gonna read this We call them true blue Mormons TBM's that they're not gonna want this book

27:11

They're not gonna want to talk about this issue with you anti literature. Yeah anti Mormon I don't like that term because a

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Mormon is a is a name for a person who's a believer in Mormonism I'm not against the

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Mormon. I'm against the ism. So call me anti Mormonism but but but we have we have this problem of trying to Understand why the

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Latter -day Saint is Is He struck so so I'm not going for the true blue Mormon who would not read this book.

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I am wanting to To reach the person who is either thinking about leaving or who has left and realizing very likely they're going to Deny God they're going to have that moment.

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I asked the Latter -day Saint who has left Okay, so help me to understand you don't believe in God anymore and they and they say well, no,

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I don't I said well Why and they said well this religion burned me out. Well, here's the problem religion is about man

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Man's attempt to reach God. I said, yes, you were burned and I apologized for that It shouldn't have happened and yet for how many years you were in this church

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You were told that this was true. And now you realize it's not true, but didn't you once believe in God? Didn't you once believe

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Jesus was your Savior and you know what they say? Oh, yeah, I did I said so what happened again?

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It's the religion I said, but you know what God and Jesus Did not do that to you

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It was men who did that to you and if you end up not believing in God at all

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I think they have the last laugh because in essence many

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Mormons I think act as if they are atheists And and so I think it's a religion that breeds

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Atheism if you are somebody who's gonna throw the baby out with the bathwater

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I think you're making a tragic mistake and the idea that many Latter -day Saints encourage each other by saying if the church isn't true that Nothing else is

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I say that's a lie from Satan. Where did you get that from? Well, we used to say it to each other all the time as Latter -day

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Saints I said well think about it if the church isn't true that nothing else is that's going back to the great apostasy

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Do you hold to the great apostasy being true? I don't know Would you hold that Joseph Smith was a true prophet because he was the one who taught that well

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No, I don't like Joseph Smith. I said well, he's the one that taught that there was a great apostasy Well, I just haven't really thought it through that way.

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Well if the church Possibly was lying to you. I think they were lying to you that the church if the church isn't true that nothing else is well

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Maybe you need to consider the possibility that something else is true. It could be atheism. It could be

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Buddhism. It could be Biblical Christianity and until you do the investigation I did the investigation when

30:02

I was a junior in high school and I found out that Jim Jones had a thousand people drink Poison kool -aid

30:08

I said to myself, how do I know that? I'm not part of a of an air so I went out reading other scriptures talking to as many people as I could and that's

30:18

Where I gathered my love for people who believe in other religions I find it all fascinating as I'm sure you guys do as well people believe some really interesting things

30:28

I want to get into their minds and their heads and I want to find out why do you believe that? And then

30:33

I want to take a look at what best corresponds to reality, that's good So so why is it then so important to understand the existence of it's not just God in general

30:43

But the God of the Bible like why is that important? Well, if the Bible is true, then we would have to say that it is teaching the truth about who

30:52

God is It's quite simple that's why the first two chapters like Bible because if the

30:58

Bible is not true, then I guess it's Everybody for himself and we try to look at the

31:04

Empirical evidence to see okay. What is truth? This is the question that pilot asked

31:11

Jesus at this trial. What is truth? K Barathus and I think that's the best question

31:17

Anybody today can ask is the Bible true? I think it is if the Bible is true and it teaches in a

31:24

God who's one God Deuteronomy 6 for hero Israel the Lord that God the

31:29

Lord is a hot is one the idea that God Doesn't know of any other

31:36

God Isaiah 43 10 Isaiah 44 6 and 8 says that God knows of no other gods.

31:42

That's pretty clear if you read 43 through 46 the the The idea of a monotheistic

31:50

God is very much makes sense that God doesn't change Malachi 3 6 That God is from everlasting to everlasting

31:57

Psalm 90 verse 2 and in fact if you go to the Book of Mormon Which is supposed to be the most correct book on earth and a man

32:04

Supposedly can get closer to God by abiding by its precepts and by any other book Well, Mosiah 3 5 and Moroni 8 18 both say that God has always been

32:15

God When was there ever a time for him to have been a man? Said that he could have and and the idea that he changed in his being from a sinner to Somehow a holy

32:25

God and that I have the potential to become God makes no sense So, I don't know. That's a long answer to your question

32:32

But yet to go around the corner and say well What else do I have if I don't have the

32:37

Bible to tell me what is true? Is it God's special revelation or it's not if it is then we need to trust it if it's not

32:44

Then help me to understand. How am I supposed to determine truth? Yeah No that that is so good

32:50

I appreciate that so much Eric and I think honestly like one of the most practical tactics you can really do

32:56

And then it goes totally along with everything that you've written in your book again The book is called introducing Christianity to Mormons is available for sale now we have links in our description is really believing what

33:07

God says about the unbeliever and What the Apostle Paul says in Roman chapters 1 is that every single person they know that God exists

33:17

But they suppress the truth and unrighteousness and I always say to ex -cultists not just Mormons, but Who've had say a traumatic experience whether it's just having that doubt really having your whole world fall apart

33:31

But a lot of it a lot of times comes with trauma severance from people that are close and family members you

33:38

Actually, let me ask you this. I just thought of something you mentioned earlier in the book You're saying that when you you need to realize when talking to people who are

33:47

LDS that You need to realize that they're there What if they come to believe this it's going to come at a cost

33:56

So there's a weight and gravitas even behind this conversation real quickly talk about that If a person leaves their church, they could be risking their marriage.

34:04

They could be risking their children They could be risking their stand in society

34:10

They are making a very big decision So this is a hard thing for people who leave and some would say maybe they ought to just stay in the church and many do

34:19

There are many atheists and many non -believers who go to the church who do that to keep peace in the family but I think we as Christians need to be appreciate that because I never was an

34:32

Latter -day Saint you guys weren't either and so we don't quite get that but to understand the

34:39

Ramifications of leaving when I present to them the gospel and they accept it they are

34:46

Wow, what are they gonna do now now that they have this information and I don't suggest they do stay in the church because they're

34:53

Not going to get fed there They're not going to have the ability to have oversight within a church situation that I think the

34:59

Bible wants us to have somebody who believed in Diana Didn't keep going to the

35:06

Temple of Diana They you know, they stopped they would join, you know with the Christians or what?

35:11

You know if it was in the Old Testament would be the Jews and then later it became the Christians I think we

35:17

I think we need to present the truth and if a person wants to leave Mormonism Then we're going to have our work cut out for us to help them to be able to transition out

35:31

But I'm gonna say if you're a Latter -day Saint and you're somebody who's scared about leaving

35:36

It's the best thing you can ever do and to have a relationship with Jesus compared to what you had as a

35:42

Latter -day Saint Not knowing if you have eternal life if you were to die right now Most Latter -day

35:47

Saints say I don't know if I would end up in the celestial kingdom But in the Bible it teaches us 1st

35:52

John 5 13 that we may know we have eternal life There's that promise and so if you want

35:59

I will help you as a Christian We need to be willing to do that. You guys have discipled people, you know, we we have taken people and and and hold their hand and Once they understand what it's all about.

36:12

They they have a desire I I have friends that I help desire and I know that if I were to ask them now

36:18

Would you like to go back to Mormonism? They would say don't even talk that way because because I did not have any hope in that church now

36:27

I have a relationship with Jesus and Jesus is enough Yeah I mean It's such a stark contrast when you look at people who are in that category that Jesus is everything to them

36:38

Versus the Mormon stories podcast. Yeah, and again, this is not to take shot take take shots or dis anyone

36:46

There's just a reality that that when you leave and You don't really have anything to replace it with Your identity is based on the fact that you were an ex -mormon and you have this identity that now you're still struggling what to replace it with and there's a lot of jadedness a lot of bitterness and it just goes to show that you have to be able to replace the counterfeit with an original so to paraphrase what

37:10

I was gonna mention earlier the existence of a counterfeit predicates the Authenticity of an original and Because God has put eternity in the hearts of men when people have experienced a counterfeit

37:23

They become jaded, but we know when we're talking to someone who's either say an ex -mormon in that category

37:30

We know that they believe that God exists and they're still even though they're still still suppressing the truth

37:35

They have a longing they have longings that only can be fulfilled in the triune

37:41

God And we know that's what God says about the unbelievers So I know that whenever I talk to someone who's

37:47

XLDS, I know that's what God says about that I'm not going to derive from that Did you have any kind of last thoughts on that before we jump on to maybe the next section or you know?

37:57

Go ahead. I got some thoughts on that Personally, I think it's amazing How Jesus describes himself in Scripture like in John we see him quoting in many of the

38:07

I am statements from Isaiah Actually with the Annie who words from the Septuagint And what's beautiful about that is

38:15

Isaiah 43 10 It says literally in the beginning says so that you may know understand and believe that I am he

38:23

Right and Jesus then quotes from Isaiah 43 and John when he's giving prophecy to the disciples

38:30

But what's amazing is that God wants us to know understand and believe who he is And if you're speaking to someone who's

38:37

LDS and you present them with the Jesus Christ of Scripture and the beauty of what he did

38:42

In his death burial resurrection for their sins paying the penalty of their sins on the cross

38:48

Jesus becomes more beautiful than anything in their lives But the only way to have that happen is when you're actually preaching through the

38:56

Jesus Christ of Scripture So the existence of the God of the Bible who is Jesus who is the father?

39:02

Who is the Holy Spirit is what shows the beauty in the relationship of what it even means to be human in general?

39:07

So you're willing to give up everything that you have to truly understand what it means to exist as God's creation, right?

39:14

Yeah, I agree completely. Amen. Well said yeah, so just real quickly We've had plenty of conversations to Walter Martin always talked about when when it really comes down to what it's really all about and I remember this from dialogue at the doorstep with a

39:28

Mormon between Ed Decker and Walter Martin he goes well if well, whenever I asked whenever I get into the discussion of Christianity religion

39:35

The one thing I always want to know is what do you think of real? What do you think of Christ because that's really where really where it's at whose son is he and for me?

39:44

I really want to know what you think about Jesus Christ I'm looking I've watched this so many times like I have have the way in which you said it

39:51

Yeah, but when we're talking to someone who's LDS With Jesus bring up who

39:57

Jesus is is a fundamental importance because there's so many different rabbit trails You can go down.

40:03

You can talk about temples. You can talk about undergarments. You can talk about the Mountain Meadows Massacre You can go you can go into all different areas

40:10

But what do you think is important to talk about Jesus and when it comes to LDS?

40:17

And what do you think you was important to you enough in regards that they wanted to bring up in this book?

40:23

Well, the Bible says in 2nd Corinthians 11 for it's possible to have a false

40:28

Jesus the idea that just because you hold Jesus in your church's name as the missionaries like to point to their badges doesn't mean anything if the version of Jesus that you're advocating is not true and I mean

40:41

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel Muslims believe that Jesus is one of the great prophets peace be upon him.

40:49

They'll say The my Hare Krishna friends will say that Jesus is a great guru but these are all false versions of who

40:58

Jesus is and the Bible says in Galatians 189 that if anybody preaches a Gospel other than the one

41:03

I preached to you. Let him be a curse So we we see very clearly that it's possible to have

41:09

Jesus in your religion But if it's not the right version of Jesus Jesus in Christianity It's in the beginning was the

41:16

Word the Word was with God the Word was God John chapter 1 verse 1

41:21

Who is the Word who was God verse 14 the Word became flesh and dwelt among us

41:28

We believe that Jesus is fully God and he's fully man. We believe that that's called the hypostatic

41:35

Union 100 % of each Jesus being in very nature did not consider equality with God something to be grasped

41:42

But he humbled himself and became obedient unto death even death on a cross Philippians chapter 2

41:48

We can go through the Bible and we can get a really good picture of who Jesus is well, who is

41:53

Jesus according to Mormonism Jesus according to Mormonism is a Created being of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother firstborn.

42:02

So yeah, that's the term that is in the Bible So they'll use that term firstborn. They mean that literally

42:07

Lucifer followed There was this great council in heaven and Lucifer and Jesus disagreed on their plans

42:14

And then all of us really our brothers and sisters of Jesus imagine that we all came from the same stock

42:19

Heavenly Father was our parent as well and that Jesus somehow came into the

42:26

Somehow he perfected himself without having to go through mortality. I always like to ask that question How come he didn't have to go through mortality and I do yeah what did he do that was so special because you know,

42:37

I mean so he was perfect in the pre -existence and so therefore he gets a free pass and and and then when did he accomplish perfection some would say when he

42:47

Was on the cross and that's where he He got his perfection there. No, Jesus was perfect from the very beginning according to the

42:55

Bible So when it comes to Jesus, I like to ask the latter -day saint Tell me more about your

43:01

Jesus and they'll they'll tell me about how he's their Savior. What's he your Savior of what was that means

43:07

Savior? Always ask that question. What do you mean by and and they'll say well, you know through the

43:12

Atonement and through the grace and Well, you have to understand the language is being talked about in Mormonism is different The the terms are the same but the meanings are different What is a

43:23

Mormon mean when he says I believe I'm saved by grace that the Atonement saves me that is called

43:28

Immortality, that's general salvation Everybody gets that because supposedly we were all spirits in a pre -existence

43:36

Previous life and we don't remember it, but we chose Jesus plan over Lucifer's. So they'll say well we believe in salvation by grace

43:44

And that's what they mean But that's not the same as what Christianity is because the

43:50

Bible says in Ephesians 2 8 9 we're saved by grace through faith This is not of ourselves. It is the gift of God not by works

43:57

Lest any man should boast so it's it's this idea that that we are able to receive

44:04

Salvation based on on grace and Mormonism. It's not just grace.

44:09

It's your individual works You're supposed to keep the commandments of God continually and unless you do where I am you cannot go

44:17

That's what God supposedly said in Doctrine and Covenants section 25 verse 15. This is what they call

44:24

Exaltation this is what they believe is celestial kingdom Or eternal life, but the

44:30

Bible teaches that we may know we have eternal life 1st John 5 13 Eternal life.

44:36

That's the same term that's used for exaltation. The Latter -day Saints don't know they would have that. Hey, what's up everyone?

44:42

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45:28

I've noticed when you bring up something that a Cup when I first started two decades ago when

45:35

I'm in high school Talking about how Jesus and Satan are brothers. They're an open book about it have no problem with it

45:41

And then you can have a conversation Colossians 1 50 15 through 17 how Jesus Christ create all things including including

45:48

Satan. It seems that That has had a minimum continues to have more less of a an effect

45:56

The effect and that becomes a lot more minimal just because they're post -modern either they're post -modern and they don't

46:01

Understand their own doctrine or they just are indifferent or don't care Like how do you what do you what are you seeing come up now when it comes to Jesus even those?

46:11

Arguments or how do you effectively? Communicate this to a Mormon so they can understand there's a terminology difference.

46:18

What does that look like in your perspective? Yeah, I think for a lot of Latter -day Saints in this post -modern idea, especially the younger

46:25

Latter -day Saints, they're no longer a people of the book And by that they have four scriptures

46:31

They have the Bible the Book of Mormon doctrine covenants and pearly great price And yes, they study that in seminary in high school

46:37

Every high school here in Utah has a seminary nearby and they're studying these things.

46:43

There's no doubt about it But when it comes to what they rely on for truth, we talked about this in the previous show

46:49

It's all about personal revelation what it is that I feel and I think for many

46:56

Latter -day Saints Unfortunately, we can use our Bible and it won't really have an effect on them

47:02

But then I have to understand that I am NOT going to be able to convince someone with my words

47:08

It's gonna have to be the Holy Spirit who comes in and takes over So when it when

47:14

I when I'm in a conversation with somebody and they're just coming out with things that really are not what?

47:21

Mormonism teaches they come up with their own Ideas. I always like to say where do you get the basis for being able to believe the way that you believe?

47:30

Versus the way that I mean I I know what Mormonism teaches and that's not what Mormonism teaches and I know what

47:36

Christianity teaches It does not teach anything close to that. So trying to Trying to work.

47:42

This is all kind of a puzzle. I would say trying to trying to each person is an individual and But I think we are coming more to this idea that you know in the progressive nature

47:54

It's just what I believe and who are you to tell me I'm wrong. That would be very Unkind of you to say that my ideas are wrong when well,

48:02

I am I'm saying that your idea does not consistent either with your religion or With the

48:08

Bible itself. So how do you? with modern LDS Apologetics like going down to Provo.

48:13

I hear this all the time like we do believe in the same type of grace It is by grace and faith.

48:19

I only do the commandments because I have love for God. It's not that they saved me I always try to remind them. I'll be like, well, what's article 3 say, you know things like that because it's

48:27

We believe that all mankind may be saved through the atonement of Jesus Christ by obedience to the gospel ordinances and principles but there seems to be this disconnect ever since this

48:35

LDS teacher Brad Wilcox has really blurred the lines between What they actually truly hold to in their doctrine in terms of a works -based

48:45

Salvation. Can you kind of explain that like how can we break that that barrier in a sense if you take a

48:52

Closer look at what Brad Wilcox teaches and you can go to our website Mrm .org we've done podcasts on him

48:59

He just spoke at General Conference last year very popular speaker But he really is not saying anything different than what

49:07

Mormonism teaches you have to look closely it sounds like oftentimes they they love to come up with these little catch phrases and people gravitate toward that Jeffrey R Holland for instance a few years ago said you get credit for trying and a lot of Mormons were telling me on the street

49:23

Well, I get credit for trying but you read his talk very closely He's not saying that you're gonna get the celestial kingdom

49:29

It just means you get credit for trying but you got to keep going until you actually do what you're supposed to do

49:35

How many come in here's what I ask how many commandments are you supposed to keep as a latter -day saint?

49:40

You know what their answer is all of them. Mm -hmm. How often all the time?

49:46

Yeah, how are you doing at that? and because Doctrine and Covenants section 1 says for I the

49:53

Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance nevertheless he that repents and Does the commandments of the

50:01

Lord shall be forgiven? So while a guy like Holland or a guy like Wilcox can come in and make it sound like we're really that close

50:09

No, in fact, why is it every time? I like to cite Ephesians 2 8 9. I'm sure you guys like that verse as well

50:15

Where do they go what's the first thing faith that works is dead. Yeah. Oh my goodness James chapter 2 verse 20

50:21

Have you thought about yeah, and I always say well, I agree with James Well, if you agree with James, then you don't agree with Paul.

50:30

Oh, no. No No, I agree with James because what is he saying? He's saying if you say you have faith and good works will follow the

50:37

Bible teaches that all over the place Galatians chapter 5 The fruit of the Spirit is obvious love joy peace patience, etc

50:43

The Bible says in Romans 8 that a Christian has the Holy Spirit in him Or her and that's the one who does the work in your life

50:53

I mean, I like to go back to Ephesians 2 8 9 right where it says Not by works lest any man should boast what part do you not understand?

51:02

But verse 10 goes on after he just says that and it says for we are God's workmanship

51:08

Created by Christ Jesus to do good works, which he prepared in advance for us to do

51:13

James and Paul therefore were on the same page Before we were even created

51:20

God created us to do good works and it's yet the justification by faith alone

51:27

Romans chapter 5 says we're justified by faith apart from works of the law read the book of Galatians had a powerful impact on Martin Luther That's where Sola Fides comes from right, you know going back to those passages but in Mormonism They have a verse and they all know the verse 2nd

51:46

Nephi 25 23 You're saved by grace what? After all you can do how many times have you heard that on the street and you say so how much can you do?

51:57

Well, I can do a lot. Okay. So how are you doing at that? Well, I'm not quite there yet But I'm trying or I'm doing my best

52:06

Well, wait a minute. Let me understand. What is try mean try means you didn't do what you

52:13

Set out to do. What does it say in first Nephi 3 7 first Nephi 3 7 says that God does not give

52:20

Commandments that cannot be kept and by the way notice I like to cite their verses. I don't cite them exactly

52:25

I just give the gist of it. I think if we can learn those verses from their own scriptures

52:30

I think it has a powerful effect. They all know first Nephi 3 7 and they go. Yeah, but I'm trying well, you know what

52:36

Spencer W Kimball said about that in his book the miracle of forgiveness, I Disagree with Spencer W Kimball in his book the miracle of forgiveness

52:44

But I do think he did a good job of explaining what the unique standard works say He said just do it.

52:50

You're capable of doing it then just do it He said on pages 163 and 164 of his book

52:57

Trying is not sufficient nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin to try is weak

53:04

To do the best you can is not strong. You must always do better than you can This is true in every walk of life.

53:10

I think Mormonism is impossible for that Wasn't it you or bill there? I think I ran into at the temple and you were

53:17

Handing out copies of the miracle of forgiveness. I have I actually talked about that in our book sharing the good news with Mormons I have a website the miracle of forgiveness calm.

53:26

I have handed out since 2014 over 1 ,400 copies out on the streets and talking to people

53:34

I get into more conversations with that book. Some people really hate it because he does have a section against homosexuality

53:41

So there's a lot of the younger people who hate that but many of them have not read it But I find that the majority of the older Latter -day

53:48

Saints have read it and so I'll I'll stand outside the general conference or a

53:53

BYU football game and I'll say free copy of the Miracle of forgiveness every Latter -day Saint ought to read it and then people will with some pride say

54:01

I've already read it Then I asked that question. Oh, are you doing everything that Spencer W Kimball said you're supposed to do and then what do they say?

54:09

Mm -hmm. I'm trying I can't tell you how many how did I memorize pages 163 and 164 the first year?

54:15

I was reading it and after a while you just memorized it and so I have it in my mind because Spencer W Kimball was correct

54:23

If Mormonism is true, then trying is not enough. You need to keep the commandments of God In fact,

54:29

Spencer W Kimball said on page. I think it's 209 that perfection is an achievable goal

54:35

Wow. Yeah, I think when I've talked with Mormons just give me your thoughts This verse has always come up when say we're doing outreach

54:44

Moroni 1032 Says yay come on and this is from the Book of Mormon says yay come unto

54:50

Christ and be perfected in him and deny yourselves of all ungodliness and if you shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and Love God with all your might mind and strength

55:01

Then is his grace sufficient for you for you that by his grace

55:07

You may be perfect in Christ and if by the grace of God you are perfect in Christ You cannot you can and now

55:14

I deny no wise deny the power of God So I find what I try and at least push the

55:21

Mormon on has asked them Have you denied yourself of all ungodliness my point four fingers back at myself as I'm pointing.

55:29

I haven't So What about have you loved

55:34

God with all your might mind and strength? I Haven't yeah, you realize it's if then you can't get around it, and I think

55:42

I've noticed too that as you have this conversation They come to this weight and realization that I don't

55:51

Like all of a sudden like oh my goodness. I'm there, and that's when you have to tell them at least from my perspective that You're under you're under a yoke

56:00

You're under a burden like what's your experience in this I've used this verse or what are your thoughts on that well actually my friend

56:06

Bill McKeever put together seven verses that he uses on the street We called it the celestial law tactic, and it was later made out by others

56:17

And so it's used a lot on the streets. That's one of the key verses I think we need to make sure we have a lot of compassion for our

56:25

LDS friends family members neighbors who are under the bond of The yoke of Mormonism because imagine they are trying their best

56:36

They really are and I commend them for trying hard for doing their best but if you're not capable of doing what what

56:44

Mormonism says and what the scripture there in the in the Book of Mormon says then you're not

56:50

Capable of being able to get to the celestial kingdom the onus is on the back of the

56:55

Latter -day Saint if that's the case They have no hope why is it here in Utah one of the states that have the highest percentage of religious people

57:05

We have over 50 % Latter -day Saints in this state, but we have one of the highest rates of Prozac usage in the entire nation

57:14

Why is that now some might say the Rocky Mountains? You know that the mountains cause that well really yeah?

57:20

There's people there's there's some doctors who say that that has a Impact on depression, but I'm gonna suggest to you

57:28

There are a lot of people who have manicured lawns and every week every Sunday they open up their garage door with the remote control, and then they go in and then it closes behind them and And there's a lot of sadness there because they're doing their best

57:43

They're trying hard, and they're not capable of doing everything. They know they're supposed to do I talk to people on the street all the time

57:49

That's why I think Spencer W Kimball's book is not loved Because he's just stating brass tacks and for them

57:57

That's not good news, and I would agree, but the Bible teaches that there is good news

58:03

There is hope there is the possibility of knowing that you have a relationship with God And it's not based on what you did or what you do

58:13

It's based on what God did and that happened 2 ,000 years ago when Jesus died on the cross

58:20

And he said it is finished. You no longer have to do the work now He says

58:25

I have my work done I have accomplished that I have finished it and he wants to what we call imputation

58:33

He wants to credit us with righteousness that we do not have That what we need and that and that God can provide to us

58:42

Spencer W Kimball said you have to be like a Superman You have to basically keep all the law and be a

58:48

Superman I'm gonna say I do need a Superman, but it's not me it's Jesus Jesus is the one who paid the price and Died for my sins so that I might be able to have a relationship with him and when you understand

59:01

That concept it changes you radically as far as what works are all about works are important As chapter 9 in my book is about sanctification

59:11

Yes, we believe as Christians to do good works But we don't believe those good works are somehow earning us

59:17

God's favor and that's what Mormons are not seeing So we need to have that compassion.

59:22

We need to love Latter -day Saints We need to be speaking the truth in love Ephesians chapter 4

59:28

We need to have an answer for everyone who asks us to give the reason for the hope we have But to do it with gentleness and respect and I think that's what you guys do

59:37

I think if you hated Mormons, would you be doing cultish podcasts?

59:42

No, we want to see them out of Mormonism and into Christ Yeah, and and I think our motives are pure even though Latter -day

59:48

Saints think you must really hate me Yeah, because you do this you this brought this podcast is so negative toward the

59:55

Mormon Well, let me say there is bad news bad news is you're a sinner and all the wages of sin is death

01:00:01

But there's a comma after that in Romans 6 23, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our

01:00:07

Lord if somebody goes to their doctor and the doctor says Oh, you're doing just fine.

01:00:13

And a year later you come back and you go. I'm just not doing well. He says well Yeah last year. I knew you had cancer.

01:00:19

I just didn't want to ruin your day What kind of doctor would that be bad news is needs to be delivered sometimes?

01:00:25

Yes, you are going to hell if you don't have a relationship with Jesus and yet there isn't there's good news

01:00:31

The gospel means good news and Jesus is There in the Bible you can read about him and you can receive him as your

01:00:39

Lord and Savior and that's my hope for every Latter -day Saint I talked to yeah No, it's so it's so important because when we talk about how bad theology hurts people or even just affects people

01:00:49

That you just see the culture in Utah is heavily affected by this works based

01:00:56

Salvation so you talked about not it's not just Prozac I mean Utah leads the knee is one of the top leaders in the nation of all sorts of different type of Prescription pills and and like Xanax and also all sorts of different substance abuse really a lot of the drugs used to be very mind -numbing to numb how they feel

01:01:15

But also it's one of the leading areas for plastic surgery pornography as well, right?

01:01:20

Yeah, and just because there's that pressure though There's that sociological pressure from the women's perspective to have that perfect step for wives

01:01:28

Look and they're just more and more pressure, especially now not only just that Warren pressure

01:01:34

But then you have the Instagram influencer I've talked with people who are ex -mormon and they felt they had so much pressure in that where it's like I There's more than I could bear.

01:01:43

So I think that's really Really big are there any other areas you've seen just with culture within just Utah your time here where you kind of seen that Practically played out just the yolk and the burden that people have and how they carry that out

01:01:57

Oh, yeah, I mean just talking to people on the streets. I Think you get that idea that They really are good people as far as what what does good mean?

01:02:07

It means that I'm a good neighbor I I mow my grass I I do nice things and so at the same time when

01:02:14

I call them out on Doing everything. I Think they kind of lower their head and they just I think they easily get discouraged and I don't think it's necessary To get discouraged when there is the answer

01:02:30

But unfortunately fewer than 2 % of everybody who lives in Utah is a evangelical Christian Yeah, we need people coming here to like you guys, you know

01:02:38

I mean you've just moved here last year Andrew and we need more Christians here who are going to have the safety net available

01:02:46

For people who are leaving this church in droves and I think it's I think it's unfathomable that only 10 % of everybody who leaves

01:02:55

Mormonism ends up going to Evangelical Christianity that that number is too small and that's why this book introducing

01:03:01

Christianity to Mormons I want to give good information a reminder for those who are

01:03:07

Christians, but you know what? We don't teach theology very well anymore back in the old days It seemed like it was a little better people don't read people don't think very much

01:03:14

But we need to know what Christianity teaches and then we need to also understand our Mormon friends and neighbors and their mindset so that we can give the best possible presentation of Christianity to them that they might have

01:03:28

And and we have an answer I think to the problem to the to the question of where did we come from?

01:03:34

Why are we here? And where are we going? I think it far supersedes anything that Mormonism has to offer

01:03:40

Hmm. No, excellent And I think one of my just one chapter that popped out to me as well, too

01:03:45

As we kind of go towards the tail end of our conversation here. Is that a growing in the faith? That there's just chapters in here that just seem oh, well, this is kind of unconventional for a book

01:03:55

It's like a little different but I think this is really good because it isn't just about Helping someone leaving

01:04:01

Mormonism even someone is helping them Get out of Mormonism get out of this cult and we want them out of it and with Christ But then even for someone who is

01:04:11

LDS or any ex -cultist, there's a lot of there's a lot of challenges There's a lot of unthinking that they have to do

01:04:17

I mean, I'm sure I've had plenty of conversations with people who are XLDS even years later still having struggling knowing that they're saved by faith alone, but having that programming of that pressure from work still in their mindset

01:04:34

Practically in this chapter, maybe maybe touch talk a little bit a little bit about that And what what drove you to write this chapter kind of towards the tail end?

01:04:41

Yeah, as we said chapter 3 existence of God chapter, I think it's 7 resurrection

01:04:47

Well Mormons believe in the resurrection, but that is the cornerstone for what Christianity is all about So I wrote that chapter to say

01:04:53

I'm trying to be pro -christian and then I'm hoping that your LDS friend is not only

01:04:59

Asking or maybe has just left the church, but they're not only asking what you believe but okay so what do

01:05:05

I do now and that's how I start the chapter with a Couple that were 80 years old.

01:05:12

This is a true story. All the stories in there are true and This was seven years ago This 80 year old couple came into the bookstore at Sandra Tanner's, Utah Lighthouse bookstore and said

01:05:22

I don't believe Joseph Smith anymore We've been in the church for 80 years. What do we do now? Well, what would you do if you got asked that question?

01:05:29

What do you do now? Well first thing is I think we need to talk about Finding a church home where you can grow some would say you stay in the church.

01:05:39

Maybe you can help people get out No, I don't think that's a good idea. I think you need to find a good Christian Church here in Utah We have a website

01:05:47

Sponsored by our ministry mrm .org. It's called Utah churches org and we just bought

01:05:53

Utah churches .com Aaron shop a wallet. Oh, that's the head of that one. So so so that there's a place you can go find a church

01:06:01

I don't think you can live Christianity without the fellowship of the believers

01:06:06

The Bible says that it doesn't know of a Christian who is not somebody who gets involved So whether you go to Apologia, I go to the mission there's different good churches here in the

01:06:16

Utah area or elsewhere outside and so hopefully a Former Latter -day

01:06:21

Saint has an evangelical Christian friend who would take them to church to help guide them a little bit and then

01:06:28

The chapter also deals with what are some other things that we do as part of the sanctification process to grow in our faith

01:06:36

Well, we better be in our Bibles. We need to learn how to study the Bible for ourselves. We can't just depend on the pastor

01:06:42

We need to learn how to pray there so I try to go through some real basic things that a

01:06:49

Christian could Communicate and I think if somebody does become a Christian that you could read that chapter together with your friend and say here's some of The things they consider but I think if you get put into the right church in a local church body

01:07:01

Not just watching it on TV that people are gonna know your name that you actually can go to maybe some classes

01:07:08

Bible studies get to know people That's how we're gonna grow is by having other people who are invested in us and so as a lot for if you're a former

01:07:19

Latter -day Saint and Want to become a Christian going to church doesn't make you a

01:07:24

Christian I'm going to church is going to help you become a better Christian.

01:07:30

Mm -hmm Yeah, and what do you think? I got Ezra up up here again. Thank you so much for taking the time

01:07:36

I'm really hoping that this book Really kind of helps and reaches out to the people that you wrote it for again

01:07:43

The book is called introducing Christianity to Mormons and like long term With and we've talked about broad variety of topics will hold up here all three of us like as we wrap up What would you say with everything that you wrote together?

01:07:56

What would you like to see this book? I mean if you could just sum up, okay, I spent a lot of time this sums up most decades of ministry decades of just hundreds of Conversations reading materials everything like that, but if you could just sum up what do you think?

01:08:11

What do you hope long term? This book does what would that look like for you? I hope that Christians are challenged to share the

01:08:21

Christian faith with their LDS friends certainly I want them to get out of Mormonism We need to understand the basics of Mormonism to help them get out

01:08:29

But once they've made that decision that Mormonism is no longer true or they just want to understand what it is that you believe

01:08:36

I hope this book encourages you to be able to share what it is that we believe as Christians because if we have the truth and I do believe

01:08:45

We do then we need to share that truth with Latter -day Saints in a way that they can understand

01:08:52

So this book written specifically to help somebody Explain Christianity to someone with the

01:08:58

Mormon worldview and in the last part the glossary I had to fight for this by the way with my publisher because they only want you to do so many pages and they said

01:09:06

Oh, that's gonna add pages Yeah I said I want to have a glossary that Explains the terms that are used in this book and I didn't want to have to explain it within the chapter

01:09:15

So I tell a size the word whenever that first word is used so you can come back here and look at it But throughout

01:09:21

I actually take some of the terms that we have Like for instance grace, what is it grace mean to a

01:09:29

Christian? Well according to the Christian It's unmerited favor with God I only got one sentence and so that's what

01:09:36

I said provided to those who place their faith in Jesus and LDS enabling power provided by God to help a person keep the commandments completely different So I'm hoping that this book could be like a resource that somebody could go

01:09:48

I'm not quite sure what my Mormon friend means when he says grace. Well, it's enabling power Oh and enabling power to do what to keep the commandments and yet you ask them.

01:09:56

Are you doing it? No, so what good is grace if it's not if it's not working? So, you know, so that's kind of a longer answer than you might have looked for But I just hope that it's an equipper and then

01:10:07

I hope it's a book that Christians could feel free To give to their LDS friend because I've written it as if a

01:10:14

Mormon is reading this so I try my best not to be Unnecessarily offensive, but I also want to share the truth.

01:10:20

All right. Thank you so much Eric again introducing Christianity to Mormons Available now at on Amazon Christian bookstore comm or whatever this book that wherever it's available

01:10:32

We have links in our description as of right now So if you guys enjoyed this episode, I hope it was encouraging for you.

01:10:38

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