Post Discussion/Debate Review

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:36

Well, greetings and welcome to a Monday dividing line unusual time unusual day

00:43

And that's because I just finished less than half an hour ago Recording.

00:50

I'm not sure how many times I've been on the unbelievable radio broadcast now in London, I think that was around 15.

00:58

I think I think I had counted up 14 and And part of that is because for a while every time

01:05

I go to London I'd get hold of Justin just as hey Come in the studio and Justin knows

01:11

I've done radio my entire life and so There were a number of times we would do two programs we'd have an in -studio one and we'd have a recorded one

01:23

Maybe somebody on the phone You know, and I was I'm always willing to roll with punches

01:29

With Justin and I mean we did one program in this tiny little studio where You know, we needed to share certs because we were so close to each other just for breath mints

01:41

Um, so so, you know be doing all this stuff. And so I just finished Recording the unbelievable radio broadcast less than half an hour ago on the subject of Calvinism versus Mullen ism

01:54

Which gives a better explanation the existence of evil with dr William Lane Craig now

02:02

Many of you have been looking forward to this encounter on a theoretical level, but as you will notice

02:10

I Did not announce it when someone else did a couple days ago.

02:16

I wondered where it came from If you're asking why didn't you announce it?

02:21

I wanted to make sure it happened there wasn't any reason for me to be um

02:30

Rallying the troops or whatever I I told a few people very very small number of people and they'll all tell you

02:36

I said This is just between you and me. Please not tell anybody else this But I wanted to make sure that it was actually going to take place and You may be aware

02:47

I was supposed to be in Amarillo, Texas today I Was gonna be doing this from the

02:52

Mobile Command Center. I had arranged the schedule the whole nine yards for that Didn't work out that way in some ways.

03:00

Maybe it's better than I'm here on in in my familiar surroundings Justin used a really good new service.

03:09

We're gonna have to look into That seems to work real well for a high quality recording of that kind of stuff and so but it was doubted

03:18

I don't know that it has live streaming capacity, but If you want to record something online and have really high quality from both ends

03:27

This seemed to be something I had not seen before and was glad to get a chance to see anyway Before we talk about What happened and the discussion

03:40

I thought it went really really well I think I think Justin said it may drop tomorrow. Maybe the day after I forget from what he told me and I apologize

03:49

Because it's late over there because they have to take my systems uploading my side of it and And then

03:57

Bill Craig's was doing the same thing and then Justin's got his they've got to pull that together

04:02

There were only a couple times when there was any of the max headroom type thing

04:08

And that was only when Justin was speaking. So It probably won't take that long and it should be like I said

04:15

Pretty high quality as far as video and the audio is concerned So that's that's that's good But before I talk about it because I still have on my remarkable to tablet by the way this thing if you want to take notes

04:28

Yeah, that's that's really really nice that's a remarkable to tablet and it it is

04:35

They say it's like writing on paper. It is it really really is. It's it's very very good anyway

04:42

Before I talk about what our discussion was and go over the notes Let me just say something about Justin Briarley I Don't remember exactly how

04:54

Justin I got hooked up or what the first program we did was But like I said, we've

05:01

I think it was 2006 maybe did my first program with him.

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I don't know I can I can walk to the premier studios from a number of different hotels in London Probably never get to do it again, but I I can't know the direction from different perspectives to directions

05:27

Anyway, I Just want to say no Justin and I obviously do not see eye -to -eye on a number of theological issues

05:34

He wrote a article against reformed theology a couple years ago. I said, hey Justin, let's let's debate.

05:40

No, no, I Think it would be a very interesting discussion. I still wish he would

05:45

I wish he would trust me enough to do that. But I Know how important Bill Craig is to what

05:54

Justin does over there with unbelievable and the conferences he does and things like that So I knew That there was a possibility

06:03

Though a remote one that there could be some bias involved I've experienced that with before with people that I was very disappointed

06:14

That it did express itself Janet Mefford, for example I I knew when I went on her program after the

06:20

Oscar Cotty thing that even though I had filled in for her We had worked together. I knew his possibility and She went much farther than I ever thought would be a possibility and how she attacked and and spun things and things like that So I knew there were possibilities in this situation, too

06:39

But I have always found Justin Brierley to be Astonishingly fair and Incredibly talented at getting conversations to take place and that's exactly what happened today

06:56

He was once again completely fair He helped clarify things

07:05

One of the things you've got to love about Justin Brierley is he's listening To so many people who do

07:12

Interview programs They have their pre -programmed questions. They're gonna ask.

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They're not even listening to what's being said. That's not Justin. He's listening He's asking relevant questions

07:24

He's trying to bring things out and he's just as fair as a day as long now

07:31

I There were one or two programs Where it was just he and I in studio and it was sort of lopsided and He sort of got this plaintive look in his face.

07:43

Like let's let's not Make this person look really really bad. You know, he's British for crying out loud.

07:49

You know how they are and so there have been times when

07:55

When I've known that he's wanted people to pull their punches and to keep things civil and I've always joked about when

08:02

Bob Gagnon was on with the progressive lady. I Even I'm pretty sure

08:09

I even wrote to Justin on Twitter and said oh man I can see your face because I think they're both in studio and I just I Can't help but laugh at what he must have been thinking and trying to do and Sitting there with a fire extinguisher trying to put out the conflagration that was going on.

08:27

But he wants everyone to leave With smiles on their faces

08:34

Though they didn't I can guarantee you that didn't happen in the Bob Gagnon interview Debate they had.

08:39

Anyway, so I just want to thank Justin Brierley. He did a tremendous job I Think anybody who listens this

08:48

Will go man. There's still so much to be discussed because I started bringing up some of the ramifications in regards to middle knowledge and the idea that God Because I think this is directly relevant to the thesis of evil

09:05

God actuated a world in which there is a tremendous amount of evil and if So so what about is this the best possible world?

09:17

Well based upon what? What what is what are God's goals in the actualization world based upon middle knowledge?

09:24

You can't get word one about that from Scripture Nothing from Scripture Bill admits that Molanism is a fruitful fecund mechanism of Theological insight and the people were just Just didn't get it until the

09:49

Jesuits came up with this. They've abandoned it, but the Jesuits came up with this In some in one case we were talking about Genesis 50 20 2 ,900 years

09:59

Down the road. No one really knew What was going on in Genesis 50 20? for nearly 3 ,000 years until a theological giant

10:10

Louie de Molina, I'm sorry But If you think that Louie de

10:19

Molina was a theological giant if you don't understand the Jesuits were we're doing I Pointed out that you know

10:26

Molina is not limited by solo scriptura and Bill just laughed it off like it's doesn't matter.

10:32

Okay. Anyway, you'll see Anyhow The point being that there are lots of other aspects of this that I think should be discussed and I'm open to doing it

10:48

There are probably people Much more intelligent me that could do it as well from the

10:54

Reformed side, but You can be a great theologian, but not do radio.

11:00

Well So, you know Paul Helm did a great job in his discussion with William Craig but I speak at three times the rate of speed that Paul Helm does and Can respond much faster.

11:12

It's just the way I'm wired just way I've made That's just how it works. And so like I said, there there are people far more intelligent me

11:21

That if that was the only thing they should be the one doing the debates, but they should never debate there are guys who just Incredibly insightful, but you you put them on a debate stage and they're gonna look like bumbling idiots

11:35

Just because the way they express themselves and because they they don't think fast or they can't multitask it can't can't take notes and listen at the same time and blah blah blah blah and They just look terrible when they do it.

11:46

I've seen it happen over and over again People that you'd love to read their books, but man, you do not want them doing exchanges because it's just it's just not fair so anyway so I certainly would be open to you know, those further discussions because there's

12:04

The primary criticism that I'm gonna receive is that I did choose

12:11

See you need to understand in a debate in a discussion like this this wasn't formal debate but in a discussion like this

12:19

You know, I have my notes here, all right, and I'm looking here and Let me see one two three four

12:41

So four of the major notes that I wrote down here. I did not have any chance whatsoever to follow up Excuse me been talking a good bit to follow up on What I had jotted down here just You write it down because that's important I want to get to that and Then by the time it comes opportunity for you to speak

13:10

Two or three other points have come along and you have to make a decision and I made the decision in this discussion to focus upon the key claim of the

13:23

Molinist system Rather than being on the back foot constantly in defense mode

13:31

There's lots of things I could have said in defense of reformed theology. I didn't for one simple reason

13:37

They've been said a thousand times before you can find them in a thousand books But what you haven't heard in a meaningful way is someone challenging the central truth claim of Middle knowledge as I point out on the dividing line and now you know why we've been doing what we've been doing on the dividing

14:01

Line the past what three weeks four weeks something like that now It's because I knew November 29th was coming

14:08

So I've been focused upon this I've been listening on this in my rides and read books and listening to McGregor and Stratton and and Craig and all the rest of this stuff in preparation

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For today I Want it to be worthwhile. I still think my discussion with N .T.

14:29

Wright on Unbelievable is extremely useful And that was years ago. That's what I want

14:35

I'm gonna get run over by a truck. I'm gonna die of some strange disease, whatever eventually sooner rather than later probably and I Want to leave something behind for the church for my grandkids my family

14:51

That will have lasting value and so that's why I was focused upon this

14:57

I think this is important But I did not hear people focusing about Eli over at Revealed Apologetics Had me on to talk about Molinism.

15:13

I don't know a year and a half ago or so and then he was talking with Dr. Stratton about that conversation and When he tried to push

15:23

Dr. Stratton at the same point and that is the point of the truth value of subjunctive conditionals the essence that which defines

15:35

Middle knowledge that God has this knowledge prior to his decree of What any person would do in any given circumstance?

15:45

How and it's not and God does not control that it is not under his control It does not proceed from his will in fact.

15:51

I think that was a Yeah, he specifically said independent of God's will

15:58

In our conversation today, and I was just thinking about philematos. It's multiple uses in Ephesians 1

16:07

Which again as long as you overlay Molinism over the text of the New Testament, which he admits that's what he's doing and it comes from 1 ,500 years after Paul, so no one really

16:25

Had had a had a a fruitful understanding of what was being said for 1 ,500 years

16:31

Think about that That's not saying that they're you know, I've talked many many times that you know

16:37

The first full -length discussion in atonement hundreds of years after time the New Testament, okay That explains why there are so many wacky views the atonement, but the question is

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This is a claim that becomes the interpretive grid for the entirety of everything

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God does in all of Scripture and Nobody knew about it For 1 ,500 years after the last words of Scripture written.

17:03

Just keep that in mind My focus was on the quote that I gave you all on The dividing line last week

17:19

It came from the discussion with Paul Helm. I played it for you over and over again. I went over this Everybody should have known exactly exactly where I was going

17:28

Quote what the Molinist does say that the Calvinist does find objectionable is that God is not in control of which subjunctive

17:34

Conditionals are true. He doesn't determine the truth value of these subjunctive conditionals. That's outside his control. There is the issue

17:42

Because it is those subjunctive conditionals that limit By Bill's own assertion limit what

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God can do What is the form his decree can take his decree cannot? Express Simply what is pleasing to him?

17:58

No In Molinism what's pleasing to God is to maintain human autonomy now how that could be pleasing to God before he creates with mankind

18:08

I It does not make a lick of sense to me Because as I brought up in the conversation there is a vast difference between deriving your theology from the text of Scripture Creating a theology and pressing it on he does not believe anyone drives their theology from the text of Scripture It's all just competing models.

18:31

That's all it is because that's what it is in philosophy and so it's it's

18:36

Clearly plain that he does not believe that anyone drives their theology from texture though I pointed out he then contradicted himself by saying that I was wrong about something scripturally as if you could drive that just from the text of Scripture, so See if you catch that when you listen to it

18:52

It went by pretty quickly only only those that are really tuned in are gonna are gonna catch that or if you're

19:01

Making notes and sort of doing a flowchart, which is difficult to do because it's not a debate Though we it was very controlled

19:11

There wasn't any there was nothing Well, I suppose

19:19

There's always people who will find some way of complaining about something, but I don't I don't think

19:25

Either Bill or I I have nothing to complain about Bill He kept repeating the same thing

19:33

You're making God the author of evil that over and over again, even after Genesis 50 even after Isaiah Isaiah chapter 10 and After I read from the

19:44

London Baptist Confession of Faith, which is the same as Westminster at that point he just keeps repeating it because it's

19:50

It's necessary for his position But anyway,

19:55

I focused on that issue and And I made sure that everyone who listens to that hears that Bill's response

20:09

To the grounding objection because that's what it's called. It's grounding objection If you want to see it rather fully developed, you can read

20:14

Francis Turret's in section the Institute's a link to theology I think

20:20

I express it more clearly thanks to Bill's Expression of it in those words in his debate with Paul Helm or discussion with Paul Helm and whatever

20:31

I Think it's more clearly understood now, then you would get from reading Turretin, but Turretin is often difficult to follow

20:39

But that was what I focused upon Because what you hear him saying as well the grounding objection is based upon truth -making theory and In this form, it's maximal truth -making that there has to be something that makes something true and I reject that and there's all sorts of things

21:01

That are that there's all sorts of reasons not believe this and I'm like, wait a minute every example.

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He gave completely failed because What middle knowledge is saying is?

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That these true subjunctive conditionals that is what anybody would do in any given circumstance and I Obviously reject that very assumption

21:28

Mankind is too complex. We don't just live and there was an essence of James White joke that came up during the middle of it

21:36

That was sort of funny but I Do not exist as some essence floating around through space.

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I am who I am because the way God made me I am the result of God's decree

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I As a person do not pre -exist God's decree and I personally am offended by the idea that anyone would think that I do and So no one including

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God can know What someone he has not decreed to make? Would do in a giving a situation because my decisions are based upon who

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I am as an individual and I am God's creature The gifts he's given me the gifts.

22:17

He hasn't given me all determined The range of decisions

22:23

But it's always a range of decisions The idea it's an either a or not a eat the ice cream.

22:30

Don't eat the ice cream is sim is so laughably simplistic I just it amazes me that people actually believe this and if you think

22:42

You know, you can think you know someone better than anybody else in the planet. They will still surprise you

22:48

Yeah, but God can really really really know you But that means you do not have the autonomy that the whole system is designed to try to protect in the first place

23:00

So I I reject that whole idea to begin with It doesn't make any sense.

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It's not autonomy and It really is a very shallow explanation to theodicy to be pretty honest with you that God micromanages

23:16

Everything that happens in the world so that you are always put in a situation where he knows what you're gonna do

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That's autonomy That somehow answers the problem of evil. I don't think it even gets close to answering the problem of evil

23:32

That is that is the most mechanistic Way of answering that the problem could ever ever come up with But that issue aside and that's an important issue that issue aside

23:48

I asked Bill Craig, okay These true subjunctive conditional statements that define middle knowledge

24:00

Upon which God God's decree is based that delimit

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God's decree They're the Legos from which he creates feasible worlds

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Not determined by God, right? Nope, that's that's that is

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Beyond what was the term here? It is independent of God's will they are independent of God's will, okay

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And clearly they can't arise from the creature who has not yet been created, right? Right? so Where do they come from?

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His answer is They don't have to come from anywhere. We do not have to answer that question

24:48

You are utilizing a theory of truth -making that basically says you have to answer that question and I'm like, yes

24:55

You do have to answer that question because it's the center point of your argument It's the center point of what you're saying limits

25:03

God's decree This is your positive assertion and you will listen to that program and you will never find out where it comes from what you will hear is that it's silly to ask the question and I just I just go

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Okay, there you go for me There you go He admits no middle knowledge isn't taught in the

25:29

Bible. It's a it's it's a it's a fruitful System you interpret the

25:34

Bible by it's consistent with Scripture. It's not taught in the Bible. That's silly, right?

25:41

There's the point God's complete freedom to do with this creation as he sees fit is and I was stunned at how many times

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Bill said there's all sorts of stuff in Reformed Theology It's not taught in Scripture like like God's simplicity or his timelessness and I'm sitting here going

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But I'm sorry. Um Yes, it is No, there's no explicit statement.

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I said look you you start in Isaiah 40 you go through Isaiah 48 You're telling me you're not gonna come up with pretty much all the attributes of God In God's challenging of the false gods do the things only he can do and I just God bless him.

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I just don't I just don't think that that Bill has spent much time with anybody who even you know What I was reminded, you know,

26:30

I was reminded of honestly Very very honestly Y 'all know who my my favorite heretic was

26:37

John Dominic Rawson. Well, I say was it it's terminology. I've used I think I think

26:42

Dom's still alive. He's quite elderly but John Dominic Rawson brilliant man and IQ off the charts and when we first met before our debate in Seattle, I think it was

27:02

Northwest He didn't know what to do with folks like us he didn't he didn't even know we existed

27:13

I mean remember the debate he and Borg versus me and Jim Renahan on the resurrection

27:20

Halfways this debate. I It was I'm pretty sure it was Dom that said it because I knew Borg Borg was an apostate so he knew what we were saying, but John Dominic Rawson was just a ultra liberal

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Irish monk Lived in a cell all the way through the 60s studying the Gospels. He he never ran into a reformed

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Baptist and so halfway through the debate, he's like so So you think?

27:46

That there wasn't a body in the tomb after the resurrection Like yeah, yeah, and and given how intelligent the man is you go how could he not know that because he had never run into someone who believed that stuff and That's what

28:06

I was reminded of in listening to Bill Craig is

28:11

It just seems like he is in in a realm where I Just remember remember, you know his debate

28:23

With Christopher Hitchens Well, what what Christians do disagree with? Well, Calvinism well, and and and when he describes

28:32

Calvinism remember when he tried to review Saiten Bruggencate's stuff on presumptive apologetics, he clearly

28:39

Does not believe that reformed theologians have anything meaningful to say so he doesn't read us or if he does read us

28:47

He reads us so shallowly and with so little respect for the reformed tradition that that it's just like and there were just times where it just seemed like Like there was that's where the disconnect was and That's not the first time

29:06

I ran into it not not the first time I ran into it at all So We did get into the supposed

29:17

Conditional that interestingly enough as a text I've used number of times and Paul writes to the Corinthians about if they had

29:25

If the rulers this age had known they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory and of course Primary application we use in the past in that crucified

29:32

Lord of Glory two natures two natures one person etc, etc, which

29:38

Bill actually doesn't believe but he's a neo -apollinarian on that which we didn't get into but I would

29:44

I want to know which came first his neo -apollinarianism or his

29:50

Molinism and Did one influence the other? Because I see a connection between the two

29:57

We talked about on last last divining line. I didn't come up didn't have time to get into it, but I would be really

30:04

Really really interested in that so Let me just See sometimes you'll see something and by the time the debates over you're like Well, I have here presupposes.

30:21

God is free. Don't remember the context was But at one point he did say that the whole history of the world is

30:32

Included in the information that God uses up to the point of a person's decision any decision in a person's life

30:39

God's taking into consideration the whole history of the world and what I wanted to say is

30:47

That means none of that Can freely flow From God's eutachia.

30:57

It can only it's all determined every single bit of it Including all the natural disasters and everything.

31:03

It's all determined by middle knowledge middle knowledge is the driver here No, Bill said oh, yes, it's according to kind intention of his will but it's not

31:13

It's it's according to kind intention of the truth value of subjunctive conditionals

31:21

The range of what God can choose is extremely small because his his primary function is to Run all the data

31:32

Come up with the feasible worlds and then there's this the other question is what is his?

31:39

grand purpose That will then determine which world is going to be actuated and you you can't answer any of these questions from Scripture For for a system that is supposedly

31:51

So useful in producing light It doesn't produce much light It leaves us without the clarity of Ephesians 1

32:05

But my point was the whole history of the world includes the decree there's all sorts of stuff

32:12

You know, I need to get dinner on the way home and I've got a pretty good idea where I'm what I'm gonna do but there's a bunch of stuff that can get in the way of that and I just might change my mind and The point is

32:26

God's made me in a certain way and that is a part of the freedom of the his expression But as long as you engage middle knowledge

32:37

What man will do becomes the ultimate decider of all these things of all these things

32:43

It's never an expression of God's eutachia. Yeah Not taught in but is consistent with that's the idea of Molinism is not taught in Scripture, but it's consistent with Scripture and that's you'll hear it at least twice come out bill.

33:01

That's difference between us and He just doesn't believe anybody He said

33:06

James, you don't you don't your your beliefs aren't derived from script. There's there is no passage in Scripture that says that God has a

33:16

Unilateral divine decree. I'm like really and I brought up others.

33:23

I brought up briefly rough Psalm 2, but I focused on Ephesians 1 Sorry, he did not exegete that text

33:31

Listen for yourself So, let me see here. Yeah, and at one point is that you know toward the end he says, you know

33:40

You know, you don't just simply read this stuff out of Scripture and I didn't say you simply read out

33:45

Scripture You read Scripture as a whole you see it as a full divine revelation

33:52

It's not some simplistic surface reading you read it as a whole and As such that's where you drive your your

34:01

Oh Okay, Rich. I just looked over here Rich said

34:06

I thought he said Friday So maybe rich rich was setting up to do what we're doing right now. So you heard part of the last bit of the program

34:14

So rich thought he heard that it'll drop on Friday. Well, okay, that's a few days down the road, but That's fine.

34:21

We've got plenty of stuff to keep ourselves busy between now and then But yeah, there you go.

34:27

So I am again very thankful For having had the opportunity to engage this subject

34:39

I don't want to Just drop the subject I want to finish up some of the

34:48

Some of the most useful material is when Bill starts going.

34:54

Okay, if this is true, then what about this and We've gotten into some of that before In looking at the only wise

35:02

God Especially the idea which

35:09

I did raise but he didn't want to discuss That there are certain people that God could never save in any feasible world and Just think about what that means

35:21

There are people who exist in some fashion that produce this true subjunctive conditional knowledge

35:33

That by someone's decree But in fact by no one's decree could never be safe.

35:41

Think about what that means. I Think that is a fatal objection to Molinism And I'm gonna tell you something

35:52

I Don't know how many Molinists have ever even contemplated it

35:58

There are a lot of Molinists that the only reason they're Molinists because William Lane Craig told him to me But the vast majority of Molinists I've ever interacted with never even considered the ramifications of what this stuff means

36:12

Never I'm hoping they'll have to now I'm hoping they'll have to now

36:21

No two ways about it there's gonna be a lot of discussion going on and Don't Don't be deterred from the central issue

36:34

If you want to be a philosophical Molinist and never make application to theology fine go do your thing.

36:40

It's irrelevant to me But the only reason Molina came up with what Molina came up with Was to undercut the gospel of grace

36:49

That's what he was doing He was defending the continued existence and necessity and centrality of the

36:58

Roman Catholic sacramental system That's what it was about now

37:03

Bill is not defending the Roman Catholic sacramental system, but he's still defending the synergism that is central to that and Don't be taken off of the central issue here

37:24

By well, you need to read this book over here or this guy over here said that or you know, Bill Craig isn't really

37:30

You know Justin said more than once. Hey Bill's the primary person pushing this perspective.

37:36

It seems to be and I'm aware of McGregor and I'm aware of Stratton but they don't seem

37:47

To be willing to be quite as Full in the claims they're making about this central issue because it was

37:58

Bill Craig Who voluntarily Gave us this quote at the end of the debate with Paul Helm He knows

38:09

This is what the Calvinist finds objectionable. He knows where it is. He knows what the issue is and I'm just hoping that everyone's going to listen to this and go well all this truth -making stuff

38:27

You are saying that there is True truth value to these statements and then you were saying that it is true that these then delimit

38:39

God's decree and Determine the range of feasible worlds

38:46

So this is central to your entire cosmology and You're saying that the only answer you're gonna give as to where it comes from is that you don't have to know

38:57

Is it just a brute fact? It just is I Mean is is the central aspect of Molin is a mystery

39:10

Rather than the autonomy of God's will I'll take the autonomy of God's will

39:17

Okay, and and I I trust the Spirit of God will Enlighten others do the same thing.

39:23

That was that was the whole point so Again, if you're wondering why didn't you just tell everybody you're gonna be doing this and stuff like that Like I said,

39:32

I wanted to make I did not want to allow anything to get in the way. I Had one guy I didn't look him up.

39:39

I Had one guy on Twitter that was it yesterday Let me see here

39:48

I did respond to the guy so I'm not sure if I could pull it up real quick here, but I Had a little discussion about how biased and probably unfair

40:02

Yeah guy named Reverend Micah Sample It's not a 27 says two days ago

40:09

William Lane Craig is about to crush James White this Monday on Justin Briarley's unbelievable I hear

40:15

Calvinism has no God -honoring logically consistent answer to the problem of evil So what

40:21

I've been told and I haven't confirmed this is that dr. Stratton publicly

40:28

Started talking about what was gonna be happening on Monday It is interesting both

40:33

McGregor and Stratton are directors for reasonable faith chapters, so they're all a part of dr.

40:41

Craig's movement Which is the Fundamental source of the promotion of Molinism So I think it's pretty fair to be focused upon what what

40:52

Bill Craig says But anyways, and so, you know, I I pointed out to this fellow

41:00

I said gotta love the fair -mindedness even -handedness unbiased perspective and I did

41:07

I believe try to engage him at some point But you know how Twitter is it's it's a bit of a challenge so my my my hope for my reform brethren and a ritual,

41:21

I'll just sort of tell you cue things up because There's no reason to go a certain length today.

41:27

I just want to give a post -debate Announcement that things had taken place

41:35

I don't know that I would have done this if the other side had not decided to start talking about this beforehand, but I Didn't want anybody to think that there was some nefarious reason why we hadn't made reference to the upcoming discussion

41:51

But like I said Singular motivation was I want it to happen. I want it to actually take place and I did not want to throw stuff out there that would could possibly derail the the encounter and so that was the primary issue and But then to my reform brethren as you engage this, please attempt to do so as best you can with with grace

42:24

Coming to understand that God is God and we are not and That man's vaunted autonomy is not what defines

42:34

God's eudachia That which is pleasing to God and in fact,

42:40

I don't know if any of you saw the statement that Soteriology 101 made and Rich, I don't think you saw this.

42:47

I forgot to mention it to you But I There was a

42:57

Did I thought I saved I should have saved that but I didn't

43:07

Soteriology 101 Yeah, okay

43:19

God is not glorified at the expense of his creation But at the expense of himself for the sake of his creation

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Now there's a lot to be said there, but I I answered him and Rich, this is what you'll appreciate.

43:44

I said So is it God's work and glory to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man now

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No one caught that No one caught that Layton's response was

44:05

God is maximally glorious and of himself his work and grace towards creation manifests glory Calvary for instance demonstrates not control over his enemies

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But his self -sacrificial love for them and that's glorious because it's revealing himself for who he is Of course you just read

44:19

Acts 4 27 28 and you go, oh, okay but again Man -centeredness versus God -centeredness is essential to all of this stuff but So so Rich Did you catch what

44:35

I asked? Let me know in in in signal if you recognize good.

44:42

So this is what this is my response So, is it God's work and glory to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man

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That ring any faint bells because nobody caught it And that sort of bummed me out a little bit and I haven't had time to follow up on it

44:59

But I'm not I'm not getting anything from from the other side of because Rich isn't we're doing this again, we found a way to We found a way to replace

45:11

Rich with a bot The the Rich cam now stares at an empty chair, it's sad.

45:19

It's it's it's it's the metaverse coming to the dividing line But I'm not getting a response

45:26

God's work and glory to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man. Moses 129 Pearl of Great Price Moses 129 the

45:34

Pearl of Great Price That was Joseph Smith's view and Moses was fairly early That was even before all the all the stuff so Yeah, it is

45:46

God's work and glory to bring about the immortality eternal life of man. That's Moses 129. Nobody caught it but it surely reminded me of what he was saying and that should tell you something given that it's from the

46:00

LDS scriptures So yeah, anyway, okay. All right, so I Think the plan is to have a regular program actually

46:12

Rich is working Rich do you think there might be a change tomorrow or What are you thinking now

46:23

Rich has to type all the stuff back to me? Yes, you are in tomorrow. But do you think there's gonna be a difference in how we do the program?

46:30

You were saying you were working on certain live streaming issues because obviously

46:35

Right now until we figure all this out What I can talk about on the program

46:44

There aren't too many Molinists What's that? What's your earpiece in? Oh Yes So we're working on various and sundry

47:00

Options but in the meantime, we're gonna do this and hope you behave yourself.

47:06

Oh, okay You know just if you have to talk about the crackers and the cookies just you know

47:15

So I should but I couldn't even I couldn't even do a lesson on on Greek the

47:20

Greek alphabet right now without our getting shut Well, that's very true I'll have to I'll have to find a way around it.

47:29

So anyway, we are we are working on various live options I mean the sad thing is

47:35

Nothing out there really is as sophisticated and versatile as YouTube So far and that that's just a stone -cold fact

47:44

There are some out there that you can pay a lot of money for and I'd really like to see if we can find a

47:51

Way to be good stewards before we get to that point. Yeah All right.

47:57

All right, but I will be in tomorrow. It's gonna be YouTube live for now and We're gonna keep plugging away at trying to find a live

48:07

Solution here an alternative that actually works for us. Okay, but otherwise, you know

48:12

Odyssey's got everything So there's that too. All right. Well, we'll probably head in that direction eventually or starting to do multiple programs or something

48:21

I don't know but I can't behave forever. You just can't ask me to it's not it's not fair So Anyways, all right.

48:30

Well folks. Thanks for listening to this somewhat shortened version of the dividing line We'll be back tomorrow afternoon.