Cultural Madness, Atonement Issues, Textual Traditionalism

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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Well, good morning, and it's not unusual for me to say that actually, but good morning.

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Welcome to The Dividing Line the only program of the week So we're gonna try to get as much in as we can early in the day today.

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It's not morning on the East Coast, but That's okay. It is where we are and so things to do today and the first thing

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Once again, we open up our browsers fire up Facebook, whatever it might be each morning and are reminded of the rapidity with which the

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Cultural revolution has taken place. It really is revolution now that we're getting to the point where Yale Will not support students who would work for Christian organizations

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The Mask is simply being taken off. It's not the mask is not slipping. The mask is being thrown away the the left has never been concerned about Liberty or freedom or justice or any of these things the left is all about power and The left is using

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Individuals and their naivete the young people of this country to what was the term fundamentally remake

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Which means destroy destroy the foundations come up with something new Western culture and the something new is actually something old called socialism communism and a totalitarian state where Liberty and freedom are simply things that well will probably be written out of the history books.

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I happen to look at the T -shirt that I have I haven't worn it yet But the t -shirt that I have that has the

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Venn diagram on the front where it has 1984 brave new world then the intersection arrow pointing to it saying this is where you are and You are here.

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I think is a better way of putting that and that's exactly It's exactly the case that's where we are and So you have

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The story not only of Yale and the actions. It's taking the equality act

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That is going through Congress will clearly pass the house will probably have passed the Senate so much for Republican majorities

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Protecting us from things like that and I am not at all certain that President Trump will not sign it

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President Trump is not strong in this area at all because he doesn't have a Christian worldview and people like Paula white ain't gonna give him a

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Christian worldview either in case you haven't noticed that so And if it's not now it's after 2020 if it's not after 2020, it's after 2022

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It's not after 2022. It's 2024 pretty much the latest the

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Equality Act will pass which will fundamentally In essence in the courts, and this is what

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Scalia saw still strange how he died. So strangely This is what

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Scalia saw This is what's heading our direction Obviously Equality Act Thoroughly unconstitutional

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No one can make an argument that a single drafter of the Constitution would would have done anything but laugh at the

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Equality Act But that is irrelevant. Now. You need to understand the Constitution is not a protection to anything any longer

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Once you adopt the living document don't have to worry about what the founders actually meant perspective. It's it's completely irrelevant.

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And so The Totalitarians want to in essence outlaw the

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Christian faith outlaw our expression of our faith in public Force us to celebrate

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Transgenderism homosexuality the profaning of marriage every type of sexual biological and moral perversity known to man this is the very essence of what we have coming our direction at warp speed and I Not sure.

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We're really prepared for it I'm not sure we ever could be fully prepared for it But it would be better to be a little bit more prepared

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Than we are currently and so in the midst of all this we read the story that broke last week.

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I think or early this week of the of the woman in Nebraska of all places who at 61 years of age bore a grandchild

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To her homosexual son and his lover and You think not only the moral depravity and perversity the self -centeredness the narcissism the amount of money

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That was wasted in this this pursuit but a 61 year old grandmother who bears a child that was produced

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By just the the utter Celebration of depravity and the overthrowing of any meaningful level of ethics or morality that you could ever have and It barely raises an eyebrow.

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I mean, you know, of course the media is awesome. It's great. It's fantastic No one will even ask the question.

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Is this even slightly appropriate for the child? Is this not the most self -centered narcissistic thing you've ever thought of for this man and his

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Partner, I will not say they're married. I'm sorry. I cannot that is a profaning of marriage It's profaning of every good and godly marriage that God has ever put together on the face of the earth

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And even saying that could get us kicked off of Facebook and and Twitter and YouTube and everything else because the left doesn't care anymore.

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They're they're taking the mask off like We're not gonna pretend that we believe in Liberty anymore you you do what we say you do it the way we say it and that's it and That's the world we're facing and it's coming at us at an amazing speed and It is

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It's very very easy to slip into a mindset of Anger and Doomsday ism

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Gotta remember. Well, okay, if your theology is not thoroughly biblical then you might be going.

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Wow God sure didn't see this coming. You know, if you're gonna open theist then Yeah, God's probably going.

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Wow. I can't believe these guys thought this stuff up and If you're a simple

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Divine foreknowledge holder view holder Then God saw it coming but doesn't have any purpose in it because he's not working out any particular

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Decree design anything like that But if you take seriously what the scriptures say

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Concerning the nature of God's decree and his intentions in this world Then you simply have to recognize that God has a purpose in this we may not know what it is.

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It may We may simply be called to be a faithful people in the midst of the destruction of Western culture and It may happen

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Far faster than we ever expected it to and we may get to watch it. I may get to watch it I always thought I'd you know, it happened after my life, but the speed we're going

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I Don't know. I don't know But we have to speak directly we have to speak openly it's got nothing to lose anymore

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Yeah, someone in channel says I'm always so upbeat and positive I wish I could be I I wish that I could did not have to be realistic with what's going on around us and Stick my head in the sand and go all all will be better but That's not what we're facing.

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We have to be prepared to face what we are are facing and that's

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That's all there is to it. So with that in mind We cannot a lot of people don't see the connection between Christian apologetics

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Christian theology and how we respond to cultural decay this is the problem a non

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Trinitarian has a different foundation than a Trinitarian for dealing with the pressures of society a

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Person who believes God is simply trying to save the maximum number possible But is limited by man's sovereign will is going to have a different response to Cultural challenges then we are going to have who believe what the

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Bible teaches about these things so You're not just completely shifting gears and changing topics and so on and so forth when you deal with these these issues

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You're really not you are still dealing with Foundational important things so keep that in mind as we

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Look at a subject. I Think what I'm going to do is

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I had this queued up last time and so I'm actually going to go to the audio first I Was listening to and I was going to play

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Material from This I'm not even sure what they call themselves I played some material.

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I thought I played some material that I just made reference to it About the red pilling of Pope Francis. I think last year where three

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Roman Catholics one of which maybe both maybe all three of those were actually converts to Roman Catholicism We're talking about being honest about the less than Orthodox nature of Pope Francis and Once in a while people will send me links to some of the stuff that two of these guys will do and it's it's interesting because they are conservative

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Roman Catholics and they're not afraid to say the papacy is Completely corrupt and there is a massive homosexuality problem in the church and it goes, you know, the the

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What's it called the? Which mafia it's a color mob mafia or purple mafia or whatever it is

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That goes all the way into the highest Ranks of the Vatican and and they're they're willing to talk about these things and yet they remain

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Orthodox Roman Catholics and When you consider

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What they're facing what they're seeing in their own church or seeing the corruption of the leadership a Lot of people go.

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Well, why doesn't that make them think through the foundations? What does that make them think through?

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you know and It's because of particular attachments is because of traditions

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Lavender mafia. Thank you. Yes. Lavender mafia. I knew is it was in the purple pink range of place

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Not real big on Wasting a lot of brain cells with lots of different Colors and so Anyway, it's because of tradition.

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It's because of attachments and it's especially because of attachment to a grossly unbiblical doctrine of the mass and so at the end of this program where they have been talking about Bishop Athanasius Schneider and All the criticisms he has had of the

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Pope and the Vatican and they've been saying this guy is smack on he's he's He's saying things that are great.

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I could have played all that stuff, but I Got to the end and I listened to this, you know, if I'm gonna play anything this is what

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I'm gonna play so I'm gonna play a little bit fast so we can get through it, but here's Two I'm not sure if both are converts

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I think one I'm pretty certain at least one of them one of them is because he makes reference to it, but let's you know

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They don't like Francis they don't like what's going on under his pontificate, but listen to this

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Yeah. Yeah, and what I like about you're saying it's like somewhat like a deep evangelical what he sounds like is me when

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I get sick of hearing this misnomer mischaracterization from Evangelicals that they're the only ones that have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

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In fact, it's the opposite through the Intermediary of the Holy Spirit and the church

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This is the only possible way to have a one -on -one relationship with Jesus is through the community relation with Jesus It's it's ironic.

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They say this were the ones that actually have the personal relation. Holy Catholics, particularly very very saint

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Sanctified holy bishops that actually take this stuff To the to the detail, you know very very seriously are the ones that have the most personal relationship with Jesus Yeah, so I he did say it like three times and you're like he's been he's been hanging out in the

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American South And he's sick of hearing this misnomer or something. Well, I get that way too. Yeah, but he's been in Brazil and Kazakhstan So, I don't know where he got.

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I mean he just got it. Yeah the Bible. I mean it's in the Bible, right? Yes, when when when people say hey, you know, we did all these things for you

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Jesus and he says depart from me I never knew you that's talking about a personal relationship to know someone right and right

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This is what Catholicism is all about. There's nothing more personal than the Eucharist You're eating the second person in Trinity fully

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God fully man. That's very personal It's way more personal than anything and evangelicals got with his Bible the coffee shop

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Okay, now I actually put it back to normal speed because at the beginning it was just going too fast It's hard to figure out what he was saying us.

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That was standard speed, um So I want you to hear what's being said Because a lot of times we don't hear

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Catholics talking to Catholics There's not you know, it's sort of like listening to Muslims talking to Muslims.

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You can really get a lot of insight Into how they think and maybe a better way to engage them when you hear that kind of conversation rather than just listening to Christians talk about Muslims or in our case

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Protestants talk about Roman Catholics, etc, etc. So here's two Roman Catholics speaking And they're talking about how they're sick and tired of hearing

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Protestant Christians talking about having a personal relationship with Jesus when it's Catholics who have the personal issues because they eat him so this is

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The modern Roman Catholic but not modern in the sense of Francis Roman Catholic Concept of the application of transubstantiation

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This is this is what was common in when I first started really studying Roman Catholicism in the early 1980s

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Well, what was that 19 actually 19? 85 ish somewhere around there.

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I don't know the Books that were suggested to you the primary books that were being distributed

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Still had this rather high view of the Eucharistic sacrifice and Being able to visit with Jesus in the monstrance in the tabernacle

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The the whole concept of that which obviously has a certain foundation in a dogmatic

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Belief in the miraculous Transubstantiation of the elements of the supper into the body soul blood and divinity of Jesus Christ Which in so much of Roman Catholicism has been completely?

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done away with By modernism. I I mean modernism has eaten the the the soul out of And and it happened quickly

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But it's it's it's eaten the soul out of what? Roman Catholics used to talk about and Now there are people well, there always have been people but now you see people very openly

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Wanting to go back and try to undo these things now. The the problem is how do you undo these things?

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How do you undo a pontificate like Francis Francis is is? assigning the the teachers and the cardinals and the bishops for the next generation

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So even when he's gone his impact, it's it's like a president who gets to Select for Supreme Court justices or something.

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The impact could be long after he's no longer in office And so how do you undo something like this?

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I I can't answer that question. That's that's that's for them. Yes Well, I can sort of hear you so I have a question because the first part of that I I you know, there's somebody on the internet that has a fever and the only thing they

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Yes, I saw that. Thank you. That is more Cowbell and rich cam,

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I'm not really sure anyway So when you set this up and you talk about how they reject

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Francis Then I hear him say now make sure I understood him, right? Did he he's saying as Roman Catholics we have the

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Holy Spirit and then he goes on to make his case and I thought that was really interesting because What is the other term which would be the

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Latin term for the Holy Spirit the vicar of Christ, right? But but but wait a minute If if this was

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John Paul II, would you be appealing to having the Holy Spirit or would you be saying? We have the vicar of Christ is the

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Pope well They very rarely have I ever heard

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Roman Catholics recognize that the the role of the

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Spirit is to be The vicar of Christ, so they don't think that they don't right

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I get it. They don't see that kind of This is the first time I think I've ever heard of a Roman Catholic appeal to having the Holy Spirit Oh, no, it's it's it's pretty me.

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That's pretty common. Yeah. Anyway, that's all that's fine Well, and of course one of the reasons that that you might not hear it as often as you'd hear amongst other people is

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Because they are hesitant to utilize that kind of language because they've heard so many Protestants use it to substantiate their biblical interpretation so they want to go back to something more which

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I think is more objective which it isn't and that is the Decisions of the church which sir difficult to do right now in light of what

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Francis is is doing. So anyway What you heard there and it goes on it.

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I'm it goes on for quite some time. But what you have is this idea that the

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Eucharistic sacrifice provides an intimacy with Christ now

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When I talk about intimacy with Christ, I would go to John chapter 14. I would go to Jesus's sending of the

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Procletus his teaching that His father and he would make their abode with believers through the presence of the

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Holy Spirit I would go to the concept of union with Christ, which is based upon election

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It is something God the Father chooses to do he unites a particular people to Jesus Christ John chapter 6 the the part in John chapter 6 the

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Roman Catholics ignore verses 37 through 45 where the father Sovereignly unites a people to Christ.

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He becomes their Savior. It is the Father's will that of all that's been given to him He lose none of it raised up on the last day

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I will go to John chapter 10 and Jesus's own teaching there that He is the

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Good Shepherd his sheep hear his voice. They will not follow another one. They know me. I know them

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That's the actual reciprocal relationship there and it's based upon the Father's sovereignty and giving a people to the

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Son It's all based upon election. It's all based upon the perfection of the Son as a Savior It's all based it's

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Trinitarian because then it is made real in our experience and we experience it because the power of the Holy Spirit and In none of these texts and in not a single word of Apostle anywhere ever

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Was Intimate union and knowledge of Christ based upon Aristotelian categories of accidents and president presence and the concept of transubstantiation never

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Not once and even when we talk about the supper

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The supper reflects a reality that again goes back to the Trinitarian work of salvation itself goes back to election itself and the

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Experience that we have of Christ's presence in the supper is not some

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Thing that is under the control of a priest which no Apostle ever taught about No a completely man -made

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Office that develops later in the history of the church. It is not based upon some priest having some sacerdotal authority to Perform the miracle of transubstantiation

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So much so that you need to realize in at least historic Orthodox Roman Catholic theology the ordination of the priest places a mark upon his soul so that even if he were to become an apostate even if he is

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Leaves the church. He still has the power to work the miracle of transubstantiation

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Because it is so that sacerdotal authority is so important. It's a mark on his soul There's nothing of this in Any word of an apostle in any word of Jesus in anything that's they honest to us.

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It is completely based upon traditional development that comes so much later that's why

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Rome must continually attack sola scriptura because the essence of its entire system the essence of its entire system is

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Derived from beliefs that cannot be substantiated by scripture at all at all and So it's fascinating to listen to men who can so plainly and clearly see the departure of the allegedly infallible head of their church

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From the historical teachings that church, but then cannot step back and go, you know

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Maybe the problem was much more foundational. Maybe we got off track a long time ago.

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We can certainly pray We certainly do know that There are individuals who are recognizing that But in my experience most of the time you become disenchanted with a religious group as a whole

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That is not what prompts you to go looking for truth elsewhere, it just prompts you to stop looking for truth anywhere

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So you look at the Jehovah's Witnesses over a million people left after the failed prophecy in the middle 1970s But they didn't end up anywhere.

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They didn't go to other churches 99 -plus percent of them just became the religiously abused.

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They didn't go anywhere So that's something to keep in mind so I wanted to illustrate that because it has to do with the doctrine of atonement and And that allows us to transition into a clip that was sent to me yesterday on Twitter so that's once again,

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I can't tell you how many times somebody has sent me something on Twitter and initially The way it was phrased or something.

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I was not I wasn't even Really interested in clicking on it, but then

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I do and it ends up on the dividing line. So The the biggest positive to Twitter to me and there aren't that many but the biggest positive is

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Twitter to me is Getting stuff like this because I I don't have time to be and I don't have a staff of people that are running around So there are certain people for example, and I got to meet her just recently

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RF Pats fan Rachel in Twitter. She always sends good stuff I'm just looking at one just 32 minutes ago sent to me and Al Mohler.

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So I haven't had a chance to look at it yet but this is about the disgusting Hollywood elites saying we're not gonna make movies in Georgia anymore if you dare protect babies just just a level of evil of Planned Parenthood and and I Anyway, I can't go on to that right now because my mind's sort of on that because of something that's happening later today

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You'll probably see by tomorrow or this evening What's gonna be going on there? But anyway, we'll get to that at a later point

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So I was sent this this clip and Through Twitter and so I appreciate grabbing that it wasn't easy to grab given the forum that it was posted in but I grabbed it real quick, it's only three minutes long and I did listen to a recent reasonable faith broadcast where William Lane Craig has basically

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Concluded his two -year study of the atonement and now is going on to a two -year study of the historical

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Adam and I Remember when he started this study of the atonement and I've seen a few positive things

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I've seen, you know I've seen quotes where William Lane Craig has

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Affirmed substitutionary atonement. That's always a good thing these days There are so many who attack penal substitutionary atonement and things like that so it's good to see some of them, but I I Don't know.

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I sort of wonder a little bit at At people who think that well,

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I'm just gonna look at this subject for a while And I'll just I'll be able to pretty much master it and then I'll go on to the end of one another one

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Like okay, well You're much smarter than all the rest of us, I guess But anyway, I haven't seen what the final result of all this stuff is and I don't know the exact date of this clip from Dr.

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Craig, but it seems like it's obviously from this time period where he was looking at atonement

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And so it was posted on the evangelical Armenians Website so you can imagine where it's where it's coming from.

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So Let's it's only three minutes long. So let's take a take a look at what William Lane Craig had to say

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The relevance of the doctrine of limited atonement Which for those who are not familiar with this notion says that Christ only died for the elect

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He didn't die for the sins of the whole world. He only died for the sins of the elect Where that would come in is that?

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some Advocates of penal substitution Namely Calvinists reformed theologians as well as critics of penal substitution

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Have said that if Christ really did pay the penalty for all persons sins

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Then this should result in universalism Everyone should be saved the critic of penal substitution therefore rejects penal substitution the reformed theologian

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Instead limits the scope of penal substitution to the elect. I don't think either of those moves is necessary It seems to me that Christ's Sacrificial death can be sufficient for the

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Sins of all persons that is it provides sufficient satisfaction for God's justice, but it isn't actualized in a person's life until it is appropriated by faith and Repentance So that Christ on the cross

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Potentially wins the salvation of all persons, but this needs to be actualized by Repentance and faith over history in individual lives, and I think the reformed thinker himself acknowledges a distinction like this in that the reformed thinker distinguishes between Redemption as accomplished and as applied.

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He will say redemption is accomplished at the cross But it is applied to individual lives as they turn to God in repentance and faith now well that distinction is necessary because if Redemption were actually accomplished at the cross or applied as they would say at the cross

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Then the elect would be born Regenerate. They would never be

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Separated from God and yet Paul says in Ephesians We ourselves were once children of wrath like the rest of mankind so Even in the lives of the elect there is a period of time where they are unregenerate sinners under the condemnation and wrath of God even though their

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Redemption was supposedly accomplished at the cross It hasn't been applied. The only way

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I can make sense of that distinction is by saying that Christ's Redeeming death was sufficient for everyone's sins that day on Golgotha, but that it needs to be actualized or Appropriated in individual lives through repentance and faith

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In the absence of which it remains ineffectual Okay, sorry about the end of that I evidently the capture program skipped over to another screen or something

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I'm not sure how that happened. I was using three different screens. So maybe it's not used that I don't know It's a new one. Anyway, um, so there you that's a pretty standard argument.

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That's a pretty standard argument In fact, I want to go back to Right about here because I want you to listen to the language that is used.

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Individual death can be sufficient for the Sins of all persons that is it provides sufficient satisfaction for God's justice, but it isn't

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Actualized in a person's life. So sufficient But not actualized and then the big word until it is appropriated by faith and Repentance and then appropriation and then the big word

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So that Christ on the cross Potentially wins the salvation of all persons.

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So Christ on the cross Potentially wins the salvation of all persons

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But cannot effectuate the salvation of all persons Because I would assume that dr.

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Craig would say and God desires the salvation of all persons So God desires the salvation of all persons

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Christ Potentially wins the salvation of all persons the Holy Spirit tries to apply

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The Benefits of Christ to all people but the entire triune

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God's effort all depends on Mankind's will and So that's the that's the standard

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Very very common approach that that is made we have of course addressed this

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I obviously now over Maybe 30 years worth of ministry

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Hundreds of times and there are just so many problems with with the with the approach

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One that we pointed out recently in responding to other materials Is the fact that Christ as the high priest did not offer himself to us

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He offered himself to the Father When you when you listen to these individuals

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Talking about the atonement. It's like something is being offered to us and it's up to us to accept it

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The only one had to accept the atoning work of Christ was the Father not us

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When you look at what the high priest did the attention was always toward God not toward the people standing outside on Yom Kippurim and So the whole

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Idea is very very man -centered. You'll notice it's never couched in meaningful biblical language.

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It is It does not take seriously in any way the role of Jesus as high priest there's nothing here about his ability to save the uttermost those drama line to God by him or The focus upon him him him it always becomes a focus upon us us us

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God the Father God the Son God the Holy Spirit do their best, but it's all us

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That's what it boils down to and so none of the texts about what the actual

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Result of the atonement would be and then you have this argument that well

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Because there has to be application Because there has to be application in time

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Then this somehow Forces the reformed theologian to embrace particular redemption

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No, the reality once again, and and we brought this up in my dialogue with Michael Brown on this very topic the consistency the harmony the inter

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Trinitarian harmony that exists between the

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Father the Son and the Spirit Together with the reality that there is an elect people known before the foundation of the earth

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Not by knowledge of what they would do but by the exercise of his will have you noticed?

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One of the twistings of Ephesians 1 on the part of our minions one of the ways you twist

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Ephesians 1 is that when Ephesians 1 talks about the elect the elect exists on the basis of the exercise of God's will his good pleasure

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When you think about Arminianism Who determines the nature and the content of the term elect man does it's man's will so they actually

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Replace the exercise of God's will With man's will now they might cover that by saying well all

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God actually chose to do was to save an Unidentified people if they will choose to be a part of that group.

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That's But it's always always Always focused upon what man does never upon what

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God does God just simply makes potentialities Possibilities Man then actuates by his almighty will this is this is the very essence of things and so Obviously there has to be a distinction between the historical reality of the death of Christ and the application to the elect that aren't going to be born for Another 2 ,000 years.

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That's not problematic Craig actually makes it sound like it is problematic

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Because he was it. Well, that would mean that they were born justified. No very plainly.

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There is an ordo salutis Very plainly there is an application But he he he then takes that to say no you could not have you could not have been united with Christ in his death

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Which means none of the elect before Christ could have been united with him in his death either and so you can't have

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God Sovereignly choosing a people and joining them to Christ and that people existing throughout recorded history

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From his perspective instead you have to have a nameless faceless group that they by their will add themselves to Under the preaching of the gospel.

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I'm not sure how he handles Old Testament Saints I I really don't have have any idea how how he would understand any of that because I don't think he has a meaningful doctrine

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Of the elect of God in that sense. I could be wrong, but There you go so The only

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Objection that is raised there is an objection to a recognition of the difference between God's perspective where he can act eternally and he can act

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Outside the realm of time and our own experience of the results of that Which does not make any sense.

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I mean scripture plainly says we were children of wrath That does not mean that we had not been united with Christ.

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There is an application of that He just wants to make that an applications depend upon the exercise of our will rather than using even

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Paul's language That at the appointed time God acted

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I was in rebellion, but God acted God, but God showed mercy to me, etc, etc.

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So God has chosen the time when he draws his elect into relationship with himself not us and As he is able to do that he was also able to unite all of us

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Those of us who exist in the future we did not exist in reality, but we existed in God's decree and that decree is

38:59

Just as real as when it is then expressed in time. So Difference between man -centered salvation and God -centered salvation very very plainly

39:10

Laid out for us here in in William Lane Craig's Presentation there was nothing now.

39:17

This was a short clip and There could have been more

39:24

But I would be really really really interested to find out whether dr.

39:30

Craig deals with The Arguments that that Owen put forward the nature of Christ as high priest his work

39:42

With all due respect to dr. Craig, I have not found his exegesis to be

39:49

In depth in the past and there does seem to be a real preference for Philosophical conclusions rather than exegetical conclusions

40:03

I can only look at this one particular clip and go. Yeah, that's that's problematic and Wasn't wasn't a real real good response to anything that that has actually been said from our side

40:16

I don't know what he read from our side Who knows who knows? So, I don't know.

40:22

I don't know if there's a is there a Is there a forthcoming book or something

40:28

I haven't heard if somebody knows Let me know I'd be interested in in knowing

40:35

Okay, so there is a little something on atonement. I hope you I hope you see the

40:42

Connection between the two topics that we just looked at Because there is there's a very important connection the connection is between the having a biblical understanding of atonement and What you have in Rome?

41:01

Because when you can hear someone talking about eating Jesus When what the

41:06

Lord's Supper is actually supposed to do is be an anamnesis a remembrance of Jesus The sin -bearer who bore our sins in his body upon the tree the

41:18

I I made this is an argument that literally is found in a In that I never did like that color of that book but answers to Catholic claims back there

41:29

Next to fate in the fatal flaw was originally one book and then the appendix was way too long.

41:35

We turned it into another book Those are my first two books answer Catholic claims and the fatal fatal flaw was first and answers

41:42

Catholic claims and They're both on Kindle rich has just reminded me They came out in 1990 early 1990

41:51

I think and I'm Not sure what

41:58

Lane is talking about in channel James White would be interested in knowing I'm not sure about knowing what but and it's all in caps, too

42:05

So I'm not sure if Lane's just sleep deprived or what? Anyway when you

42:12

I Made this argument way back then. So we're coming up on yeah, we're coming up on the 30th anniversary of this argument

42:22

I truly believe that only the Reformed can provide a consistent broad spectrum biblical criticism of The Roman Catholic doctrine of the mass in its best forms

42:42

Not just the crass Romanism Where you don't have much in the way of thought but but especially in the modern context where you've had the arguments to try to derive foundations from typology and Basically, what you've had is you've you've had formerly

43:04

Reformed men who have become Roman Catholics bring those categories over and try to utilize them to create a

43:16

Apologetic for the Roman system. I really don't see that the non -reformed have a solid basis for responding to Rome's argumentation

43:33

Because the strongest argument against the mass is that that is not the sacrifice of Christ the sacrifice of Christ has these results biblically the

43:46

Synergist whether Roman Catholic or Protestant Is in the same boat in having to use the terms of potentiality

43:57

Procurement all this type of stuff now the Romanist makes it significantly more challenging to do this

44:05

Because you gotta go through the sacraments and you got to have the priest and the church and all the rest of stuff but the idea of potentiality the idea of Incompleteness without human activity is

44:20

The the the consistent element between synergistic Romanism or synergistic

44:26

Protestantism and So that's an art.

44:32

I hope you see that there is a connection between those two topics and Having a an atonement that actually saves is vitally important to a consistent

44:45

Trinitarian theology and I think to a consistent Theodicy Yeah, theodicy is the justification of the existence of God in the light of evil

44:57

They awesome dick. I owe the Odyssey So, how can you justify that God exists in the light of evil existing?

45:05

well, the gospel is absolutely central to that issue and If the gospel is what

45:11

God is actually accomplishing That's one thing if it's something he's trying to accomplish that's very very different Very very different and you're gonna have a different foundation for answering

45:24

These these particular issues. And so I think that's very very Important. I hope you see the connection between the two okay, so Moving on from there

45:38

I I Listened to a podcast that I mentioned

45:45

I think last week where mention was made of A church that I'm gonna be going to This weekend.

45:57

In fact, I just got back from San Antonio on on Sunday Now heading up to Morgan Hill in Northern, California and one of the talks that I'm giving

46:06

Is on the issue that we have addressed a number of times on the dividing line and that is the issue of the

46:12

Texas Receptus and the movement within especially Reformed circles and Reformed Baptist circles to go back to a

46:22

Greek text that was based upon Maybe 50 manuscripts when you add together everything that Erasmus and Stephanos and Beza actually had hands -on access to less than a hundred at most from the 16th century and To Abandon and no longer utilize the critical text

46:48

Nessie Allen UBS or Probably better today simply referred to the

46:54

ECM The edition critical mayor as it is being published right now and Will continue to be the foundational

47:03

Greek text for the modern English and other translations of the

47:10

Bible in the New Testament anyway, and so I will be addressing this subject and my repeated concern that it is dangerous it is destructive to the ability to do meaningful apologetics with Muslims or with agnostics or Mormons or wherever else it might be it is a retreat into a form of traditionalism that is

47:35

Certainly not appropriate for Reformed men to be engaged in and so I've addressed this subject a number of different times

47:43

We've looked at numerous different texts member Revelation 16 5 revelation 14 1 2 2 the other

47:49

Texts that we've looked at we've been looking and we a couple weeks ago. I Pointed to this book by Jan Klans from 2006 beyond what is written this of course

48:00

Most expensive Brill books is a reworking of his dissertation from 2004

48:06

Erasmus and Beza as conjectural critics of the New Testament, and I described this book as a one -volume destruction of the traditional text position

48:19

I am deeply disappointed to be honest with you that I have read from dr.

48:28

Riddle an article Wm 120 white

48:34

Kron's Erasmus and Beza one volume destruction that demonstrates that dr. Riddle still has no earthly idea

48:41

What my criticism of his position is and I don't understand that because I know a lot of other people

48:48

Without traditional lenses in the way that fully understand what my criticisms are so I am really befuddled at How dr.

49:00

Riddle could have so badly missed what it is I've been saying all along It really suggests to me that there is a

49:11

Very very strong traditional lens Functioning here that is not even allowing to hear what criticisms of his position really are

49:21

So he says After Recent interactions with Calvinistic apologist

49:28

JW. That's me regarding the 2019 text and canon conference in Atlanta scheduled for October 25th 26th

49:37

Which I had said I'd be happy to come out before then debate himself and others

49:44

Robert Truelove on this particular subject and that invitation was declined

49:50

He says I have been weighing the value of attempting to respond to any more of his misunderstandings and misrepresentations of the traditional text position

49:58

I Haven't seen what those are but and given this

50:06

Anyway on one hand, I think there are diminishing returns to these interactions, especially since JW Does not seem to be making much effort or progress toward attempting to understand or represent our position

50:16

Well, of course, I reject that and I leave it to the eyes I think the audience can tell that's just simply absurd When I have offered critiques in the past of JW's views as expressed on the dividing line

50:26

It has usually been in response to those who have asked me to do so On the other hand,

50:31

I've been told that some of those some have profited from these rejoinders that the issues We'll discuss in this issue might be helpful to some

50:37

I hope so again after the recent land discovery I did listen to at least parts of several episodes of the dividing line in which

50:43

JW makes reference To an academic book by Yen Kranz that supposedly serves as a one -volume destruction of the confessional or traditional text position

50:51

Let's just stop for a moment. Is it not obvious as to why

50:58

I believe That this work is a one -volume destruction. Was I not clear?

51:04

I know I had most people have understood it So I'm not sure how dr. Riddle Could not understand it.

51:14

Yen Kranz, I doubt in especially in 2006 had ever even heard Of a reformed

51:20

Baptist TR only movement, that's not what the book's about.

51:26

I never said it was about that I've not even talked about Yen Kranz's views of textual criticism

51:32

It's irrelevant has nothing to do with anything I've said. I have not said we just need to follow whatever

51:38

Yen Kranz says about textual criticism and that will just Utterly irrelevant What is so important about this book is that it makes

51:48

Available to the rest of us in a one -volume form all sorts of Firsthand material

52:00

From Erasmus and Beza as to how they did it doesn't matter what how

52:06

Yen Kranz does textual criticism. It's irrelevant It's like saying that since Yen Kranz wears blue shoes

52:15

That we can't quote it it's irrelevant Has nothing to do with anything What the book provides us is an insight into the textual critical methodologies consistencies and inconsistencies and sources

52:32

That Erasmus and Beza specifically, Stephanos would be interesting, but it's not nearly as important as Erasmus and Beza How they approached the text and how they created

52:45

The very Greek text that Jeff Riddle and others are trying to say we should be using as our ultimate standard on the one hand

52:52

What Kranz documents is the very human process the fact that both

52:59

Erasmus and Beza spoke of Conjecture they spoke of the corruption of the text.

53:05

They spoke of textual variation They spoke of errors in manuscripts they compared

53:10

Greek and Latin and Beza even more in other languages Sometimes putting more weight upon foreign translations than upon Greek originals

53:20

It documents that Erasmus wasn't really concerned about creating a Greek text That he would come to conclusions in his annotations that he wouldn't even bothered to change in the text of his

53:31

Greek New Testament And it certainly documents to the hilt the huge number of problems simple direct

53:39

Transcriptional errors in the text of the book of Revelation. I had always wondered until I read this book

53:46

Why is it that the errors that Erasmus made in the first edition of Revelation come up in all the rest of the editions?

53:54

He had plenty of time to fix it and remember we've criticized Stephen Anderson for saying that doesn't matter.

54:01

What was in the first there was this process of purification Well, there wasn't and why wasn't there?

54:08

Foundationally because Erasmus had a real low view of the book of Revelation and Another Greek New Testament had been printed between his first and second editions and he instructed the printer

54:21

Hey go get theirs and fix that stuff at the end of the book of Revelation The problem was they had used

54:29

Erasmus's first edition for their version of Revelation So there wasn't anything to fix and Erasmus didn't know it and so it didn't get fixed and so it's promulgated over time

54:41

I'm really glad to have discovered that information good. That's excellent to know the point is what the book documents in its historical discussion is the reality

54:53

That to sit here today and criticize the utilization of modern textual critical principles to criticize

55:03

CBGM and the attempt to utilize computer databases to give us more insight into the relationship of all these manuscripts which we did not have access to at that time and Could not have had access to in the way we have access to today until the past 40 years and 80 years if you just simply talk about universities finally getting around to doing collations and sharing, you know,

55:30

I Identifying particular manuscripts by a consistent number or names that you knew what in the world somebody was referring to that is a pretty modern reality and It has led to Putting certain readings in the main text that used to be in the footnotes or really to the creation of the footnotes.

55:52

I mean Erasmus and Beza their annotations you might want to call them footnotes, but they rarely function in that way

56:04

Critical texts start developing 1700s and now

56:11

Every Greek New Testament you're gonna buy except the TR Is gonna have that kind of information well, okay

56:16

There are some printings but the the actual published versions have that kind of information If you're gonna sit there and say

56:23

I can't have assurance when I'm preaching if I believe in textual criticism

56:32

Textual criticism gave you your TR. That's the whole point the whole point The reason this is a one volume destruction is that it documents beyond any

56:42

Shadow of a doubt beyond any debate That the text that you possess in Scrivener Stephanos Erasmus Beza all the different editions that they all did

56:58

That text was derived through the application of textual critical principles

57:04

Just like the modern one the difference is we a now have committees you actually have to make your arguments to a whole bunch of folks and That's a good thing.

57:18

It's a very good thing so the singular personality quirks of Erasmus who for example in his annotations at one point takes a reading primarily because he didn't like the doctrine of election

57:31

Hmm, and you're all Calvinist, right? Okay. Anyway Now we have committees

57:38

That filters out a lot of that personal predilection stuff not all of it, but most of it

57:45

That's the first advantage we have and secondly we have Believe you me both

57:51

Erasmus and Beza would have loved to have had access

57:57

Not only to the volume of manuscripts that we have today but certainly to the fact that we have

58:05

Significantly more ancient manuscripts than they possessed so they're they're just on the cusp of being able to even start dreaming about something like papyrology and the dating of manuscripts and Having stuff that comes from within only a few centuries of the

58:26

Apostles almost everything they're dealing with Is Coming much later and even when they do end up with a real ancient manuscript

58:35

Beza does with Codex D Beza Cantabrigensis, even he recognizes it's a mess

58:43

It's the messiest of all the ancient manuscripts When Beza donated it he included a note with it that said that this manuscript is better to be stored than to be read

58:55

And he was right. I think he was perfectly right But the point is they are doing individual textual criticism on a minimal number of Manuscripts they have no way of knowing yet how these manuscripts relate to any of the other manuscripts that they're using

59:12

You don't have any collations. It couldn't be done at that point in time and yet somehow

59:18

They still talk about Going for the more difficult reading they still go they still recognize homo eteluton

59:24

They still recognize how scribes would would engage in tautography. They use almost all the same insights that we have today

59:33

But they are practicing this upon a very small relatively small

59:39

Manuscript basis in comparison to what we have today Without the ability to communicate with others, but we're supposed to go back to that That's supposed to be our standard.

59:51

I Find it utterly irrational And when you challenge you on that level, well, you know, you need to have a biblical cut type of textual criticism

01:00:01

You telling me that that Erasmus and Beza Were giving you biblical verses as to how you determine

01:00:11

Any particular reading in the New Testament they didn't it's it so if you're gonna say

01:00:18

I will not use modern textual criticism because The modern textual critic cannot give me chapter and verse as to why he uses the canons of modern text criticism

01:00:27

And you can't give a chapter and verse for Erasmus and Beza checkmate It's done so Maybe I wasn't clear about this.

01:00:39

I just sort of assumed that the people are actually writing this stuff and reading this stuff are thinking through it and Could recognize huh if my text arose through this process and Then I turn around and say that that process shouldn't be used to use text.

01:00:57

Then why do I accept my text and The only way to answer that it would seem from that perspective would be to say well

01:01:07

God did great things in the 16th century Well, he did great things in the 17th century too, but he's done great things in every century.

01:01:15

So what? But that seems to be well, you know, hey if it happened near the Reformation that must be it

01:01:21

Well, what if it happened during the Great Awakening? So what what does that have to do with anything

01:01:30

That I don't understand how reformed men Can use this type of argumentation?

01:01:36

Well, God was doing great things back then. So therefore Here you go Okay So That's all

01:01:47

I was talking about Has nothing to do with Kronza's view has nothing to do with Metzger or Ehrman or anything it's a historical work that provides us with page after page after page of documentation from the exact pen of Erasmus the exact pen of Beza as To how they engaged the text and utilized the very same principles we utilize today

01:02:12

They just didn't have as much information and where they made mistakes as a result or where they were inconsistent in the application

01:02:19

Because they were working pretty much alone. They weren't working in Cooperation with with other scholars.

01:02:26

So that's why This is a one -volume instruction. Dr. Real completely missed that.

01:02:31

I don't know how But I will maybe I just was completely unclear even though what

01:02:37

I focused upon made it painfully obvious, but there you go so Then he says

01:02:46

Ironically enough this book appears in the New Testament tools and studies co -edited by Bruce M. Metzger and Bart D Ehrman as volume 35.

01:02:53

Why is that ironic? Well, I think you get the idea In the acknowledgements the author notes.

01:03:00

This work is a revised edition of his 2004 PhD dissertation under professor Martin DeBoer Among those on his committee.

01:03:07

He lists text critic David Parker Okay some factual information or is there something here that's supposed to say something else in Light of what

01:03:17

I believe are some problems misunderstandings and inconsistencies in JW's use of Kranz.

01:03:23

I Thought might be helpful to offer some analysis. Well, how have I used Kranz? I've used

01:03:28

Kranz to document that Erasmus and Beza utilized textual critical principles to derive their text

01:03:36

That's what I used Kranz to do Okay, so Beyond what is written has a brief five -page general introduction and if you read that introduction you will immediately begin to see some of the problems inherent in JW's attempt to use this book as a supposed one volume destruction of the confessional text position.

01:03:54

I Wonder what that might be. I Will point to at least three important inconsistencies in JW's use of Kranz's book.

01:04:02

Okay, let's see what the inconsistencies are We all you got to be consistent. And of course my biggest argument is the

01:04:11

Traditional text position is inherently incapable of consistency Because it's using a text derived by textual critical principles to then say you should not use text derived by textual critical principles

01:04:25

Okay, there you go first. Here's first inconsistency folks ready folks

01:04:32

JW does not acknowledge the underlying methodology represented in the Kranz book nor does he acknowledge its inconsistency of the

01:04:38

JW's own methodology for doing text criticism Which is 1 ,000 % irrelevant to anything

01:04:45

It doesn't matter how Kranz does textual criticism,

01:04:52

I'm not saying we should follow him I'm simply documenting the historical reality of the fact that Erasmus and Beza did text criticism

01:05:03

I'm I'm stunned that Someone with an earned doctorate could think this is an inconsistency

01:05:11

It is so illogical. I've just what I find it interesting that JW is making of the

01:05:17

Kranz book to it I find it interesting that JW is making of the Kranz book to attempt to refute the traditional text position

01:05:24

Given that Kranz would see JW's reconstructionist approach to recovering the original autograph as outdated

01:05:31

Irrelevant Has nothing to do with anything I am NOT saying

01:05:37

Kranz's methodology of doing textual criticism, which I don't even know what it is It's not relevant to this book.

01:05:43

This is a work on history. This is about Erasmus and Beza It's not about Kranz has nothing to do with him at all

01:05:50

How is any of that? Let's say he and I would have completely different approaches on CBGM or whatever

01:05:58

Irrelevant to why this book is relevant to the traditional text position

01:06:05

Completely that Kranz sees his own work as part of the current shift in postmodern text criticism is made clear in the general introduction to the work where he quotes from this

01:06:13

That's not what the book's about and If Kranz puts out books on textual criticism fine deal with him in that context has nothing to do with why this book shows such a bright light on the inconsistencies and incoherencies of The textual critical position

01:06:33

What he's trying to do here is he's He's poisoning the well because this note that Kranz says that he has abandoned the chimeric goal of finding the original text chimeric definition hope for but illusory and impossible to achieve so Kranz is a part of the many of the people that I have bemoaned their abandonment of historical text criticism

01:06:54

Irrelevant has nothing find me a single word I have said in anything

01:07:00

I've quoted in the Kranz book that has anything to do with this textual critical methodology. There's nothing there

01:07:06

There's nothing there Then check this out

01:07:12

So JW is using a source to fight against traditional text position that is diametrically opposed to his own modern reconstruction as text position

01:07:20

Ir -re -le -vent Deal with what I've actually argued.

01:07:25

Dr. Riddle, if this is the best you can do you're dodging everything and your people are gonna see it

01:07:32

You need to be dealing with what he said about the conjectural Emendations about the translations from the

01:07:37

Vulgate back into the Greek in the book of Revelation about about what Erasmus actually said

01:07:43

That's what your people want to hear about. They don't want this poisoning the well stuff. They don't want this fundamentalistic idea.

01:07:49

Well He shook Bart Ehrman's hand once That's what we're getting here.

01:07:58

I Muslims ready for this It's gonna take a deep breath here because when

01:08:03

I get this kind of accusation of inconsistency That is so shallow and so self -contradictory and so unworthy of any reformed man

01:08:10

I'm going to tear it to shreds and I need to it needs to be torn to shreds.

01:08:16

This is destructive to our apologetic work Okay. Sorry, dr.

01:08:21

Riddle. I would love to have a nice collegial conversation with you about these things But this kind of stuff is just yellow journalism.

01:08:29

It's rhetoric Just terrible I recall hearing JW lamenting when

01:08:34

Muslims use liberal rationalistic scholarship on the Bible that they would never apply to the Quran true

01:08:40

But by using Crohn's he is essentially doing the same thing. No, I am

01:08:46

Not you are misrepresenting. I Scholarly level

01:08:57

Okay, no scholar should be making this kind of argument. I Did not make the argument ever

01:09:05

That we should adopt if I even knew what it was yen Kron's Understanding of textual critical methodology as an argument against the traditional text position never said it

01:09:17

Nobody's has listened to me has ever heard me say it and they know it Why are you misrepresenting me because that's the necessary thing for these words to have any meaning

01:09:26

There is a massive inconsistency in Shabir Ali quoting from liberals on the construction on the alleged redaction and textual critical sources

01:09:39

And I'm not talking about Manuscripts now I'm talking about redaction theory I'm talking about quote -unquote higher textual criticism in regards to the

01:09:47

Gospel of John as he did in our debate on whether Muhammad is prophesied in the New Testament There is a massive inconsistency between Shabir's reliance upon constant reliance upon that kind of material and his unwillingness to then

01:10:02

Utilize or even accept the utilization of the same kind of speculative higher criticism in regards to formation of the

01:10:10

Quran That's the inconsistency. I am NOT being inconsistent. This is simply a work of history

01:10:16

It's filled with hundreds maybe thousands of notes Including direct citations from Erasmus and Bayes's work.

01:10:26

That's all it is that's the only use I'm making of it Kranz's perspective on textual criticism is absolutely irrelevant and to try to make the

01:10:35

Argument that I'm being inconsistent because I don't agree with everything single thing. He said in here is fundamentalist nonsense

01:10:44

It's fundamentalist nonsense I've heard you quote from Metzger.

01:10:50

Should I accuse you of being sullied by having quoted from Metzger? No Stick to the issues sir to the arguments are being made.

01:10:59

You haven't done that here. You haven't done here It is absolutely no surprise to learn that Kranz's work will not support the traditional text position

01:11:08

Which is irrelevant had nothing to do with why he wrote the book No one would say that it is

01:11:13

Grounded as it is in a relativistic naturalistic worldview The irony is a JW could not use

01:11:19

Kranz's method to support his own position. This is inconsistent. No, sir with all due respect

01:11:25

With all due respect you need some remedial logic study here remedial logic study

01:11:32

This is fundamentalistic mindset the same type of fundamentalistic mindset you find in Steven Anderson's stuff

01:11:40

You can't use that view he disagrees on what on something that's not relevant this subject.

01:11:46

So what? It's a historical source for crying out loud. I Was stunned by this.

01:11:52

I mean, I'm gonna be honest. This really was a credibility smasher for me. I Mean now

01:11:59

I'm now I'm gonna have to check all the sources. I simply cannot assume That there's been any serious thought put into the utilization of any source that you're using

01:12:09

Because this is this is just this is amazing Now this is not meant to say that we cannot appreciate many aspects of Kranz study

01:12:18

It is a formal scholarly work We would however be naive if we did not consider the author's method worldview in regards to what?

01:12:24

the whole reason that I'm using it is that it is a Formal scholarly work on the subject of what

01:12:32

Erasmus and Beza said about how they did text criticism Which is what gave rise to your text historically

01:12:40

There's the whole point. I think everybody sees it, but it's amazing Anyway, the second

01:12:45

JW fails to notice the distinction that Kranz draws in general reduction between two distinct types of inundations Which he suggests would have been used by scholars like Erasmus and Beza in their study of the text and which

01:12:55

JW might well Have applied with with profit to his study of the text like Revelation 16 5. No I'm well aware that he makes a distinction and I'm well aware that all through his discussion of where possible

01:13:07

Emendations occur in the annotations in both the work of Erasmus and Beza that that distinction is to be drawn

01:13:13

It's irrelevant to the argument that I've been making and I didn't mention anything about Kranz on Revelation 16 5 because he didn't address it

01:13:21

As this article himself says Kranz is going to be putting a new book out where he addresses Revelation 16 5 and it's fascinating Because what he's gonna say is that what

01:13:31

Kranz actually is going to say, let me see if I can It was down here

01:13:41

Let me see Yeah, okay here it is

01:13:49

He wrote Kranz. I will have a new book this year With among other things an update on the

01:13:55

Beza part and a lengthy treatment of this case Revelation 16 5 in particular shortest version Here's what

01:14:01

Kranz is saying because remember riddle has come up with this idea that Beza had some manuscript.

01:14:08

We don't know what it was. It's disappeared into history But that said Asaminos, it's left absolutely no trace in all of history, but Beza had it and that's where it came from Once again, let's say that was theoretically possible.

01:14:22

I think I think it's highly unlikely, but let's let's say it's theoretically possible. So Anybody in history who makes reference to a manuscript

01:14:33

We don't even have to have the manuscript We cannot verify it as long as somebody in history says a manuscript said something that reading should be in the

01:14:40

New Testament Because that's why Revelation 16 5 reads the way it is you see what's gonna happen here is the only way the

01:14:46

TR advocate can get around this is to attach some kind of providential

01:14:53

Reinterpretation Reinspiration of the text taking place in the work of Beza. So I think do it there is no

01:15:01

Consistent textual critical methodology behind TR only ism there can't be because there were contradictory methodologies used

01:15:11

Erasmus wasn't consistent everything he did Beza wasn't consistent everything that he did and There is no one methodology that will ever give you the

01:15:18

TR. It just won't That's what this doc this book documents. So once again

01:15:25

Revelation 16 5 we have our text now. We've got to come up with a theory to defend it

01:15:31

It doesn't matter that that would make Revelation 16 6 read completely different if we applied the same theory

01:15:37

We're not going to because we're not actually trying to do textual criticism. We are doing traditional text defense.

01:15:43

They are not the same thing So we can use any argument here then throw that argument out use different argument here throw that argument out different argument here

01:15:50

Because all we want to do is defend this text It's circular it's irrational it's indefensible

01:15:57

It's unworthy of Christians It really is. So here's what Kranz says shortest version

01:16:03

Beza states that he had a manuscript but wrongly so Because he misinterpreted one of his own handwritten notes

01:16:12

It is therefore a conjecture by Beza, but he would probably not have changed his text

01:16:18

Had he not misunderstood his notes in that case He would also have written a different annotation probably with the conjecture as a suggestion only

01:16:29

Fascinating so what Kranz is saying is Yeah, that does seem to say

01:16:37

That Beza Thought there was a manuscript that read this way But he was misreading his own note.

01:16:44

Now. We know Erasmus did that We know that there are readings in the TR that were a bait that were based upon Erasmus mistaking

01:16:53

Erasmus It's can you imagine how hard it was to try to keep track of all the edits you were doing over five editions in Erasmus's life between 1516 and 1535 so over almost 20 years and With all the people all the letters you're writing all the people you're interacting with I'm getting old enough to realize

01:17:13

You know people bring something up from the 1990s, and I'm like I said what I was arguing with who what was that you know same same situation and so I'm thankful for this part of This article

01:17:29

I'm thankful for that much of it because I'm really looking forward to this I would love to see what the argumentation is gonna be

01:17:39

That's that's great, but the reality is that the

01:17:48

Argumentation that you are gonna have to use and he goes on and puts a burden on me

01:17:53

And I'm supposed to argue with his translation of the Latin and all the rest of this stuff Evidently dr.

01:18:02

Riddle cannot hear what the real argument is so the rest of you if your leaders can't hear it Maybe you can

01:18:07

I'll go over their heads to you. I hope you hear this okay the textual critical

01:18:17

Methodology that you apply to revelation 16 -5

01:18:22

Has to be the same methodology you apply to revelation 16 for and 16 -6 and mark 1 1 and John 3 16 and if you actually are willing to go to the mat on the basis of an

01:18:44

Undocumented we don't have this manuscript unidentified statement of one editor

01:18:54

About an unknown manuscript and Use that to overthrow all

01:19:00

Greek manuscripts of history as You're reading then you have to realize that that's the end of any

01:19:11

Meaningful defense of the text you're just simply gonna have to say look God re -inspired the text

01:19:18

In 1633 God just re -inspired it. We can't defend it. We have to use one argument over there completely different argument over there

01:19:25

It's a hundred your argument over there. We we we have to use all these different arguments To defend our text they're too completely inconsistent.

01:19:34

And so you know what you're right God just dropped it on us. And so you're in the same boat with Joseph Smith There you go

01:19:45

You're gonna go paddling down the river with Joseph Smith and Muhammad and all the rest of them that just just drop down there

01:19:51

It is don't question it. It's all you got It's all you got.

01:19:57

I just I was just stunned. I really was I I expected so much more and I got this though.

01:20:06

The one thing it was it was worthwhile was you know Kranz is giving a

01:20:13

Short version there. I'm sure there's much more to it But I'll be really interested in seeing how he substantiates that so Why spend the time again?

01:20:29

folks, I See and let me establish here at the end of the program

01:20:34

I see a very important connection between Dealing with the text of New Testament and all the other subjects that we talked about In a little while,

01:20:49

I'm going to be publicly addressing just a few hours The issue of abortion in a very public setting.

01:21:01

What's the basis upon which I stand to do that? Well, the overarching basis is an empty tomb the one who rose from the dead

01:21:12

Has all authority in heaven and earth But how do I know about that resurrection?

01:21:20

I'm not like Andy Stanley. I don't Disconnect the Old Testament. I don't try to walk away from the importance of the consistency of Scripture We have been given a revelation.

01:21:32

It's a treasure. It is to be defended is to be proclaimed and so When we get into talking about the atonement we get into talking about the mass

01:21:44

Where do we go the text of Scripture talk about the Trinity? Where do we go the text of Scripture? We go to the authority of Scripture to speak to morality and ethics.

01:21:53

We go to the text of Scripture These are vitally important issues, but they're almost never discussed and for me to see a movement arising within my own fraternity

01:22:05

That fundamentally says Be done with it be done with it.

01:22:10

We need certainty. Let's go back to the 16th century And let's ignore all the textual criticism that even went in at that time the creation of our text let's just this is it

01:22:22

No more footnotes. No more references I've seen that attitude before I see that attitude regularly

01:22:31

I see that attitude amongst my Muslim friends who don't want a critical attack text of the Quran. I See it amongst my

01:22:38

Mormon friends who are glad there are no notes in the Book of Mormon That is not appropriate for us men it is not appropriate for us

01:22:49

It will be the end of our participation in meaningful apologetics

01:22:55

Christian truth exists as a whole some of its greatest beauty is seen in seeing the connectedness of all of these divine truths

01:23:05

Don't trade truth for certainty Especially when it's not actually a certainty at all so This weekend on the website.

01:23:17

You'll find the link to what's going on Up in northern,

01:23:23

California looks like it's gonna be rainy day on Friday But I'm hoping to dodge the rain on Thursday But rainy day on Friday and then

01:23:31

Saturday preaching Sunday morning fly back Sunday evening And so we're looking forward to seeing you all up there

01:23:37

Then Very short period of time after that headed to the UK. We've got some scheduling issues

01:23:43

We're gonna have to be dealing with right now about that. We'll do our best to make it all work out

01:23:48

We're gonna be in the Netherlands as well Looking forward to being a part of the conference there, though.

01:23:54

I've never been translated into that language So that will prove to be interesting. That'll be a first -time experience for me

01:24:03

If you want to help make these types of trips available and in light of the possibility of another trip

01:24:11

Which would include Traveling to South Africa even in this year. We need your help we've mentioned before the the travel fund is available if you go to the

01:24:23

Support us or donate support us used to be donate support us same thing if you go to the link there

01:24:30

You can give to the general fund you can just they're also special funds. It's in the pull -down menu that you can donate to it's a long ways to Johannesburg and So we would hope to be able to schedule something like that Coming up probably in well in August So we need to hear from folks to allow these types of things to happen

01:24:53

So thank you very much for watching divine line today. Like I said No program until we get back next week.

01:25:01

This is the one for the week So we'll hopefully see you next Tuesday. Probably they're on the dividing line.