Does Baptism Save?

Even if God what Jesus did on the cross wasn't sufficient, right? I mean, could

God save you with what he did at the cross without your baptism? Let me ask you that Could he well

Speculate on what God could have done. Okay, did he did he say no. Okay, so ultimately you're not saved without your work

Uh Yeah, I would agree with that but I would say it differently I you can't be saved without faithful obedience to the gospel that's sanctification

That that comes after that's sanctification. Yeah, when you're saying you're sanctified. So when you're saying you're justified

So ultimately norm you're you're trusting in your salvation for what you did, correct? Ultimately, like God did what he did at the cross

Did you say that backwards or I'm trusting what I did for my salvation? I think is So so I'm saying in a different way so What if Christ's death on the cross?

Wasn't was not sufficient. He requires your I never said that and I wouldn't say that and it's you know, extremely

Offensive to attribute that to me. Okay, so you're saying that that you did Christ's death was sufficient

Right, so it's all that we need only sufficient but the only thing that could be done from okay

So we don't need baptism then because it's the only thing Is it is it the only thing or is it not?

Do you need to be baptized or not? Because if you need to be baptized, it's not sufficient It is true that you are an extremely skilled debater and you're good

Welcome to apologetics live we're here to answer your questions and challenges about God and the

Bible meet your hosts from striving for eternity Ministries Andrew Rappaport, dr. Anthony Silvestro and pastor

Justin Pierce We are live apologetics live here to answer your biblical challenges questions anything you have about God and the

Bible This is a ministry of striving for eternity And we are here every Thursday night 8 to 10

New York Time Eastern Standard Time To answer any questions you have you can just go to apologetics live calm click on the link to participate and ask

Anything because I believe I can answer any question that you have about God and the

Bible You say well Andrew that sounds pretty arrogant of you No, because I think

I don't know is a perfectly good answer. And if you ask me a really tough question I may say

I don't know and I think that's a perfectly good answer. Let me bring in my co -host here

You still the better? Again That's your skill debate

I'm a skilled debater. Yeah, I mean, that's what he said here. Let's let's listen and hold on So it's all that we need only sufficient, but the only thing that couldn't be done for okay

So we don't need baptism then because it's the only thing Notice that pause is it is it the only thing or is it not?

Do you need to be baptized or not? It's one answer you need to be baptized. It's not sufficient It Is true that you are an extremely skilled debater and you're good

I'm very good and a skilled debater because he doesn't answer the question

So I'm gonna give you a straw man and an ad hominem today Yes.

Yes, we are gonna deal with norm and some of his antics from two weeks ago

I wasn't around able to answer when you and Josiah did an Outstanding job with norm and norms not coming in today

But I will explain why I'll explain why I'll explain why but before I do before I do

I got some things to cover just in in You know just some things we want to wrap up and deal with it first So this is a ministry of striving fraternity apologetics live is something that we do every week

We encourage you guys is it to share this especially the podcast we will put this out later today

As soon as we record we're done. I do a lot of work to get this out in podcast form

So just go and follow the podcast Apologetics live and that way you get if you follow it every episode every week that we do this

And so you don't want to miss a single episode. So I encourage you guys to do just that Now we are a ministry of striving for eternity and also we are on the

Christian podcast community If you go to Christian podcast me org, you're gonna find. Oh, I don't know about 40 some

Podcasts. Um, actually, hold on. I'm gonna check this because I wanted to give this number Just this week just so far this week.

All right 36 episodes have dropped already of Outstanding podcasts that you can listen to every podcast on the

Christian podcast me is vetted They are it is not easy to join us I'll just tell you that even people who are friends of mine have said man you guys make this hard Yes, we do because we want to have good solid podcasts on the

Christian podcast community And so that is something that we do. Yeah, I got

I got something new Justin this week I don't know if you can see this. These are my my

Jabber Earbuds. Can you see that? I got you. Yeah, so so here's the thing.

Now, you know that I'm a runner I run about a half marathon a day So it's about 12 13 miles that I run a day and I know you haven't done that in a while I understand

I understand I'm not judging you too much But I have a problem

I have a problem with like so so here are my Apple, you know

AirPods I have tried these They claim this will be good for anybody.

It'll work for everybody with their earbuds No, no, they fall out of my ears these

Jabber Earbuds stick in my ears now. They're noise cancellating which here's here's the thing that really surprised me

I have had tons of Well, okay, just not really literally tons, but a lot of earbuds that I've tried but these

Elite seven and these are the Jabber elite seven pros. I Have tried these

I did a hour and a half two hour run with them in my ears in two hours

They never fell out that right there I'm impressed with because I have found a single earbud that worked that way.

I actually would use these Noise these right here if you can see these these are bone condensing headphones, but they're annoying to wear and so These Jabber ones have really worked now.

I did a test because I had I got them at discount for for them to you know to give an honest review and so I reviewed them and My conclusion was this a they're horrible for phone calls.

Don't use them for phone calls but for running Man, are they I was

I did a you know to test them out. I did two hours on a treadmill So you have that treadmill noise put the noise cancellating on turned on the the the the podcast

Listened without a problem. I didn't hear the treadmill at all could hear the podcast. Well Further tested it by jumping into a hot tub while the the

Jets are running No problem their noise canceling was really well, so I have a trip coming up to LA and I'm gonna try these on the flight to see how well they work for noise canceling on a flight that'll be the real test, but I Think I found

Finally a pair of earbuds that I can use while running Because man,

I've I've never found a pair that I could use because they all fall out So I either have to use these big over -the -ear

Headphones which on a treadmill or I have to try to find something else And so I think

I just found my running earbuds So these these are the these are

Jabra's elite seven earbud pros that's that's which ones these are and so in case anyone wants to go check them out and and Maybe get a pair.

That's which ones I have All right So with that you guys did a show two weeks ago

Yeah, and you had Norm on Norm is a guy that is

Hmm Well, he claims to be a minister of in the Church of Christ, which is not a denomination mind you

It's not whatever you say. It's not a denomination. Actually. I agree with him now. I totally agree with him now you see the nomination of the body of Christ is an

An offshoot in other words, we're this we're that but we're all identified as part of the body of Christ Yeah, this group or at least this young man this older man

Hey, I agree with him Yeah, so You guys let me first say you did an excellent job.

We're gonna go through some of the video. I did some clips Let me ask you a question real quick. I got interrupt is

Facebook working Everybody out there if you're on Facebook, would you say hi or something?

I only saw one post at the beginning and I'm not sure that the comment section is working Okay, while they're doing that I need to do a poll.

I need to do a poll Let me oh I got it. I got to share this

For those who are listening on audio I'm gonna I'll try to find a way that maybe

I could share this but we are looking for a new Artwork for my

Andrew Rappert's rap report podcast. So let me put this up.

Here are our options We have option 1 option 2 option 3 so folks who are watching live or even afterwards

If you're watching afterwards email us at info at striving for eternity org Let me know which one of these you prefer option 1 2 or 3

Now they they unfortunately are all scary I understand because they have my face on it

But other than that There are three different options and and let me know why you like these let me know if there's

Something you would like better in these and so Check these out.

I'm gonna leave these up for a bit so you can can see them and I Want to create a new artwork for my

Andrew Rappert's rap report if you are not subscribed to that podcast Okay, you don't necessarily need to be subscribed to Andrew Rappert's rap report to be saved

But why take the chance? Just saying. Um That was kind of like a joke, but but seriously subscribe follow

The rap report that's wrapped with two peas and Let me know which one of these you prefer option 1 2 or 3

Which one is the one you think looks best if you think well, hey, none of them

Let me know why if one of them let me know why you choose the one you choose so that We have a better idea so far that I wish we could actually hold on we do a poll

Hold on we can do it. Yeah, I can do a poll on YouTube. So those in YouTube I'm I'm gonna do this right now.

This is something we I wanted to do last week and did not so let me

Do this really quick live which Now that doesn't mean by the way while you're doing that that doesn't mean to do like the what do you call it?

Photoshop thing where you put a face in there or something like that You know, that doesn't mean to do that say I like this one better But but if you did that that would be hilarious as long as it was clean and Christian Well, you know so so if you're watching on if you're watching right now on YouTube I just put a poll out there on YouTube not sure exactly how this works, but you should be able to To vote in the poll on YouTube so and I will see those polls that come in so that way we could know what you guys think

I want you guys as our audience to be able to have some say in this to be able to Add to what we're doing

We are we have Reviews is one way and actually I should I don't know if I if I brought this up last week

So let me bring this up real quick is we I think I I think

I did this review did it Justin's I do a review last week from Brian Simmons All right, let me let me just bring that up because I know we got a new review and anyone that gives us a review will share that review online and So Brian gave us a new review and I want to go over that Let's see, did

I do the one where he was I'm looking it up at where he is on I think I did for your free radio .com

that the love FM I'm not sure. Okay.

Well, just five five star review From grapplers quest. That's my our friend Brian friend of the ministry here and he says the title is

Christ centered instruction and Discipleship and he says Christ centered instruction and discipleship from pastor

Andrew met him in the summer of 2014 and He brought me to the truth of salvation through Christ alone saved by his grace through faith and not of our works

For God knew we would boast he offered to help me to help us with content on his countless book projects and Love hope

FM radio ministry at your free radio .com

That's your free radio .com. God bless this ministry and podcast community all the glory to God now

I met Brian Brian was a guy who a friend of a friend. I came I went down to meet with him and It was it was quite interesting he was

Um, let's just say he was a guy who was Really had a lot of questions and we sat down for several hours at a diner talked through all of his arguments that he had and he ended up coming to receive

Christ that day and we were just really blessed by the way that God is working in his life and so just really thankful for the

Review that that he has given to us. So we're grateful for that Let me just say

Justin I know you know this Before we get started with the program today today's

Program is gonna deal with the question of does baptism save and what we're gonna do for the first probably hour is go over your conversation

Justin that you and Josiah who's backstage we're gonna bring him in a moment that you and Josiah had with Norm the minister at a

Church of Christ I'm gonna explain why Norm's not here today We're gonna do that for a first hour the second hour

I'm gonna answer some of the I'm gonna go through some of the questions he had that I had for him and his answers and try to Go through the answering the question why baptism does not save Sorry But I want to say that throughout this program there there is a chance

This is gonna be hard. I Want to be open with with you guys my audience

I want you I want you to I don't want to hide things from you guys and stuff like that I'm just gonna tell you right now

This is gonna be a hard program for me Okay Some of you know and and thank you

Justin last week that you guys were praying for my family You knew that I was down in in Florida Probably seeing my mother for the last time.

My mother has is on hospice and I It's just hard I'll put it that way

I got word from my dad That he's gonna have a very difficult conversation with my mom

After the weekend that conversation is probably gonna include that they're gonna start morphing and once you start that That's the beginning of the end when you're in hospice and so So Justin asked me not to do the show he said he was prepared and ready but I Did a lot of prep for this show and I really feel that I owe it to you guys

To be here to be prepared and trying to do my the best that I can do to help you guys in your apologetics, so This may be a difficult show it for me and there may be times that I have to just bail out

I'm just telling you that up front Just emotionally with things going on. I may just give it over to Justin at some point, but we're gonna see.

All right I appreciate all of you who've been praying I know

I've gotten a lot of people that have been emailing the ministry asking How my mother's doing?

Basically, she's dying. I mean, that's how she's doing it is There's no other way of explaining it

They're trying hospice is trying to just deal with the pain and They're Just dealing with the fact that she's getting to an end of her life.

She is not a believer We went down there and tried everything we could to share the gospel with her she rejected it now

We know she's heard the gospel We know she she, you know, it's it's in God's hands whether she is going to repent

But I Believe that God is sovereign and God is capable of of Bringing her to repentance if he so desires and so So that's that just just to give that As we look at the show so As I said brother we're praying and you know, it's it's a hard thing, you know, it's dealing with a loss of any family members hard and dealing with the

Repercussions that you know, what's happening to your your mother and That happened to my father, you know

I witnessed to him several times and he didn't want to hear it and and I I understand and If you need to drop out

You have my love our love one of my closest friends and you mean the world to me and I know you mean the world to these people here too and We're praying so Thank you for that Okay, so here the poll is still open if you're on YouTube you can still vote

I see many that are voting option one two or three for the New artwork for Andrew rap reports rap report go follow that rap report is with two peas.

And so The voting is is coming in. I'm gonna leave that going

I'll see how long we'll keep that and then we'll Take it off at some point. So Let me just let me just read real quick The email from norm and then we have a video we're gonna play and comment on I have from your episode

And let me let me bring mr. Pastor Josiah Nichols in Josiah welcome

You know, you did an excellent job I said this before we went live I I would like to see you have a

I would like to see you and Norm do a show together And norms in I guess invited us on his podcast.

I don't know I I don't quite remember that but I invited Norm on and and his response was

They find his response When I invited him on he said that I Asked him whether he's gonna answer my questions.

He said yes, I will I sent him a list of 20 questions. Yes I'll answer your questions I had been planning to answer them and already have most of them answered on my website

Honestly, I keep forgetting about them, but I will answer them and you can do what you want with them

I would be happy to be on your program again After one of you agrees to be on my program

I've extended the invitation both times I've never been on or sorry.

I've extended the invitation both times I've been on yours, but no one from you has has responded

So you or one of your folks come on? His on my program and and I'll be happy to come on for a third appearance now right off the bat

I I did respond to him and say I did ask Justin and Neither Justin nor I remember him inviting us on now.

He says on both programs both. I Relistened to the entire program the second one he was on he never gave an invitation not once Now I'm gonna say maybe he forgot let's give credit where you know, let's try to be you know as gracious as we can

But on the first episode he kind of gave this broad Invitation like hey, you guys could come on.

It wasn't like Come on, or I'm not coming on yours. So he's not gonna come on until one of us goes on his now.

I See that John is not on camera. So there was I'd bring him on on camera to ask him, but I do believe that this whole thing with Preacher norm started when

John one of our guys one of our regulars was on his program

So he says none of us have been on his program I Could be mistaken

Justin help me out. Maybe Josiah. I I know that you know, I'm not thinking so straight these days

If John went on his program and John's one of our guys Does that mean one of our guys actually did go on his program?

Definitely I listen to the conversations. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I Just I thought maybe it was just me.

So one of us did go on his program In fact, that's actually where it started. Okay, just just wanted to check

And and he he wanted us to go on his program Monday night now Justin you are in school

Monday through Wednesday. You do this show on Thursday. I Tried to explain to him. I am busy every night of the week.

I have a meeting Christian podcast community meeting on Monday nights, so I couldn't do that. So Sorry, so maybe

Josiah we you know, maybe you could get in touch with him. I would love to watch that you and preacher norm

Get on there. Okay. There's there's mr. John John We were you I just want to check were you on Norm's show did you go on his show at some point?

You may be muted. You're still muted. Yeah Okay, he's just waving to the camera

Sorry Um Yeah, I was on his show on rumble you can find his show on Bible Q &A on the unrumble and Just look on you can find preacher norm on Google and you'll find pretty much everything he's on So you were actually on his program

Yeah, okay by the way I just I I always like to show your your name because All of us have our real names and your name is

I believe and I'm baptized Every week you change your name It's entertaining to see so, uh, all right, so just for the record there we got it

John was on his program So there you go norm, but let me let me read what norm said

And I am glad for for Josiah Justin I'm glad that I did the video that we're gonna look at I did that Prior to getting this email and I'm glad I did because his email response to me

Was quite interesting He said he's gonna pass. He said his response was

I'll pass I'll just watch what you have to say and then reveal your blatant dishonesty in my to my audience

It was definitely an eye -opening experience for me. I'll be discussing my experience with you and your

Group there in my in the next few episodes So and I he says no need to apologize.

I'm gonna get to that in a moment what I apologized for I know Anyone calling me chicken must be kidding or lying.

I'll explain that in a moment, but then I I said to him I said lol You're talking about our dishonesty.

It's too funny We will we'll be glad to play your lies

You asked people to go back and listen to what you said and I did

You clearly claimed you did not say things that you did say.

I was surprised That you believe baptism is necessary because Jesus was baptized yet You admit that those are two different baptisms

And wow, your ignorance on the history of baptism was incredible He you know, and so his response to that Was this and Justin?

I know I read this to you before we went. I know you're giggling. I know I Granted I am putting sarcastic voice in this but Here was his response.

Now. This was all in the pretense of I sent him a list of 20 questions. I wanted him to answer

He and so I was asking him to answer him so he said yes, I will send them to you tomorrow

I'll also be doing a series of videos answering them You're certainly welcome to use my videos or any of my other videos from my nearly 20 -year -old

YouTube video library I'm sure any honest person would clearly see that my views are

Very well documented and consistent I also know that the average viewer would not recognize the blatant trickery in How you manipulated the conversation?

things like using terms Interchangeably and then making it look like I was committing

I was Commenting on one thing while you switched to something else.

I Caught it and Commented on it at the time

But sadly most of the viewers tuned in already having their minds made up about who's right

And who's wrong? I? Try to just to dissuade my audience from doing that But I know that They do anyway, so it was fun, but I'm done with that with you now

Though I would still be happy to have you on my program if you can find the time by the way

Why are some of your comments turned off on the episodes that I was on Do you do that for all your episodes on YouTube?

I? Had I would I would have thought that you wanted your audience feedback so I responded to this email and Here's my response

Um, wow, you really have an inflated view of yourself You accuse us of quote blatant trickery unquote and quote

Manipulating the conversation unquote you have you are so deceived. I Plan to expose the prideful tactics you used to to avoid answering questions and play the victim

You are projecting your behavior on us once again In our three -hour talk

I had to point out your fallacy of equivocation Which is using one a word two different ways on multiple times

It is it it is not our viewers that have made up their mind

You refuse to submit to scripture, but I I understand why because you have your father the devil

You are not repentant nor a believer since you have another gospel

We do not Turn off comments YouTube removes live comments.

Once the show ends. I do not know why they do that but But I I'm not surprised that you think evil of us rather than understanding the way

YouTube works Sad since you you do live streaming on YouTube for 20 years you claim

Which is really incredible since YouTube is not 20 years old yet Just another lie on your point on your part.

YouTube was created February 14th 2005 Please learn to know your facts before you try to deceive others

So so yeah YouTube just had its anniversary it is about 17 years old So he's gonna come back and say well,

I said nearly 20 years He's rounding up. He's running up. He's running up. He was one of the first people on YouTube.

I'm sure But all right So I Want to go through I put together a video

That is basically going through some of the stuff you guys had done

You know you you guys did an episode where you went through in detail

You know with norm some of the issues You folks you can go back two weeks ago

Listen to the episode from two weeks ago and check that out and you'll be able to see that So, let me let me share the video here and like I said,

I have seven pages of notes and Let me see there were 33 clips so this is gonna take the the video itself is is 30 minutes long

All right, well before you start I want to say this every time I look at the man, you know, who reminds me of Mmm, who does he look like Rush Limbaugh?

No, no, don't insult Rush Limbaugh that way I'm just saying it just looks like Rush Limbaugh me every time

I see him. It's like I mean, I thought you know, hey I Was gonna comment on his shirt last week and try to you know, be polite and everything

It was all in there Yeah, well, we're gonna talk about we're gonna talk about the way you two handled this versus the way he handled this and so let me play this and and then we're gonna

Engage with this. So this first clip I'm gonna I'm gonna I want to play this and I'm gonna have an apology right after it

So let me this is how the show started last week and preach your norm. Welcome in. Hey, well

The The first interaction I got tonight was did I chicken out?

So if I can get politer that would be okay Well, how about how about this? Are we

Christians? No Okay. Well, that's how polite you're gonna be. Okay. Okay. So let me address that right off the bat what happened last week

You guys were doing a show live I was on I think Facebook or YouTube I forget which one thing is

Facebook and I was commenting in Facebook and I could not see that norm was in the background

I I did email Norm and ask his forgiveness for that comment now for anyone who's a regular here at apologetics live, you know that we have

Dozens and dozens and dozens of people who challenge us on a whole slew of topics

Hebrew Israelites flat earth Calvinism charismatic gifts.

I mean we we got a ton of people that have have come out and challenged us and we say

Join apologetics live and they don't show up. And so I you guys were talking

I didn't see by the way, I didn't know that you had when I got came on and joined you guys

I didn't know you mentioned the Holocaust Day Day of Remembrance So I mentioned that without realizing until I listened to the podcast that you guys had mentioned that I Didn't know norm wasn't backstage.

So I came in not knowing that I just commented so I Said something that was public and therefore

I always believe that if I've said something in public that needs Repentance I do that publicly as well.

So I I do ask Publicly even though I've asked privately for to norm for his forgiveness

I wasn't insulting him and saying that anything about his character Saying he was chickening out.

It wasn't some sort of insult it is that we have a lot of people that come in challenge us and then don't show up and so I Wasn't sure we did this show and I didn't know if norm

Wasn't showing it is unfortunately common for folks that challenge us And so I asked norms forgiveness.

I do know he's not here this week Maybe he'll pop in we'll see. So let's deal with clip number two and in clip number two

We're gonna expose that he clearly wants to play a double standard and play the victim.

Check this out I'm not a safe person. No, not from what you're saying tonight. No, okay

So you can render a judgment that I'm not a safe person But if I render a judgment that you're not a safe person,

I'm in a cult. Okay. Got it No, see nothing. That's not know what that was never said never once said not once that never never once Did that make it saying that therefore you're in a cult you're assuming that Conversation so you don't believe that.

Oh, yeah, you're right. I'm extrapolating that You've asked me this at least six times in this episode and each time

I've told you I don't know enough About what you believe yet, but yet you make that statement as an absolute statement

Okay, so so right there. I that was from the previous time when I was on with him and I want you guys part of what we do at apologize live is to show you

Some things people do so that you know how to deal with Different things that come up and so we want you to be able to see this behavior

Pointed out and show you what's going on. So what you saw there is Now if you listen to the justice for two clips when

Justin asked him and on the very first episode He was on where I asked him if he would call me a brother in Christ He was very quick to say no, he didn't even give time to listen to what

I believe now granted and point out to that not only that but If I don't believe you're a

Christian I'm going to quickly try to get to the gospel because I Don't know if you're gonna last another 10 minutes and and in this conversation

I want to make sure it gets the gospel and I did and you did as well And I want to point that out because he refused he would not upon being given opportunities after opportunities

He would not give the gospel. He told us well, you can find it here in this passage of this passage this passage

But he would not explain what must I do to be safe Something I was gonna bring up because on both episodes

He was on we shared the gospel and we shared the gospel Specifically with him because we can sir. We're concerned for his soul and I said that And we'll

I have a clip on that. But the the thing that we end up Having is here you hear you see that he was very quick to say you're not saved

No, yes, you pointed out. He didn't care to share the gospel with us But before he even knew what

I believed he was willing to say I wasn't saved Yeah, so now with you he said well as as we'll see, you know, he said well

But on the you know, he said with you and John No, you're not saved with Josiah who he hadn't talked to He said he wasn't saved based on things he had said, but he is very quick to say you guys

Myself not a believer Okay, and and so what is he doing there I want you to notice the the tactics that's used all right

This is called playing the victim. Oh Poor me you guys are attacking me.

You're saying I'm not saved Throughout the the both shows he was more than happy to say we weren't saved

But when I said based on what he said, I don't believe he's saved.

He played the victim Okay, that folks is to get you it's an appeal to the audience to get you to feel sorry for him as if he's the

Victim he you'll feel sorry for him and believe he's right. Yeah, that's the goal of that All right, and so that's this also shows a double standard on his part

He can say we're not saved and he has no problem saying that But we can't say he's not saved because somehow that's wrong.

And and if you want to really make the point We're not saved based on his definitions that we exposed that he said are

I repudiate Yeah, no, okay, yeah, I'll Guys ask the question, why are we not saved?

Here's what he had to say on what evidence do you say? We're not Christians that you haven't done what the

New Testament says to do to be a Christian So I could tell from the things that Josiah was saying that no and Justin From last time no and John I don't believe okay now this is this is where we're gonna get into something and You know, he's he's saying based on what he said

He Josiah didn't give his views by the way, if you go back here and listen Josiah gave a history of Campbellism a history of You know, basically the

Church of Christ He didn't give his views at that point, so he says based on your views

Josiah that he didn't give yet But I want you to listen now because Josiah gives an a great argument

Okay, Josiah made an absolutely great argument here And and I gotta say

I was watching you guys while I was in Florida I was listening this and I just I sat there and I turned to Anthony Sylvester who

I was with and I was like Man Josiah just did it was great what he did

And so I want you to listen to this because he basically puts Norm in a box

Norm is saying baptism saves listen to what Josiah ended up saying listen to his argument

Jesus is a Christ the Son of Living God. I haven't I Don't have faith in him.

I haven't repented. I haven't confessed and I haven't been baptized Pretty sure I did.

I've done all those things Not according to the New Testament pattern tell me what what is it that we haven't done?

Well, you believe you were saved before you were baptized into Christ And then you were baptized as an outward show of an inward faith.

I was I was baptized because I Believe that Jesus is the

Christ. He he commanded all believers to be baptized and Because I'm not sure

I repented on my sins Okay, because you wanted to show that you repented of your sins

So you're you're actually being very careful of your language because you don't want to agree with me Even though you just said the same thing.

I said well, okay. So here's the thing what we end up seeing is

With that you have you have Josiah being very Very tactical.

I mean I got it. I got to give kudos to Pastor Josiah Who lost his internet so he dropped off up he's back

So a pastor Josiah, that was great I mean basically his whole argument is you need to be baptized to be saved and you're like well

I was I did all five things that you claimed. I need to do. Why am I not saved and It exposes that here's the thing that exposes folks

That Church of Christ and what pastor preacher Norm is saying is you have to not just be baptized

You have to trust in your baptism to save you. It's not good enough to be baptized

You have to believe your baptism saves you to be saved not just be baptized

And and here's the thing that I had noted he claims in an agreement

He tried to claim and this is a tactical thing folks that you'll see people do he tries to claim

Agreement where there actually was an agreement Pastor Josiah was was clear if you if you listen and by the way, folks,

I did edit this down just for time So if you see some clips, it's not that I'm trying to be dishonest normal claim that So I'll just get this right out of the gate

You can watch the entire thing and see that I didn't take it out of context. I just clipped it for the sake of time

Because we have a two -hour show and this clipped is is half an hour. So You know,

I'm sure he's gonna claim I'm dishonest because Yeah, he's gonna claim But here's the thing the claim the claims of agreement were clearly

That there's the where there is none. Okay, and what does that do? This is a tactic to throw people off to get them to think that the other person is agreeing with them

When they're not and so what this does to the is to convince the audience that somehow The the person is agreeing with them so therefore

I'm right This is something you see with people when you see that do not fall for it people do this all the time

They'll claim. Well, you're just saying that Josiah because you you just don't want to agree You're agreeing with me

But you don't want to have to you're being careful with your words because of that because you're actually agreeing with me What that does for you in the audience is to say?

Oh, oh see they do agree Pastor preacher norm must be right Okay, that's the goal of that that is a tactic that's used

To to convince an audience that there's agreement when there is not agreement. Okay?

And so we don't want to fall for that so I just I think

Josiah's having trouble with his his internet So he's gonna pop in and out but just add him in when when he comes in So so now

I want you to listen to clip number five because he's gonna be very clear that you have to trust that baptism Saves you it's not enough to be baptized

Baptism doesn't save you the Trust in baptism believing that baptism

Is what saves you? Well, you believed you were saved before you were baptized into Christ And then you were baptized as an outward show of an inward faith

I repented on my sins You must first hear the Word of God Yes, okay.

Okay so What you see there is and I don't know if I went to another clip there

But I think I did so what you see there is he he clearly makes it that Josiah's baptism wasn't good enough

Josiah's baptism wasn't good enough because he was baptized in Repentance of sin because he had already believed and wanted to show the repentance of sin and folks

We are gonna get this we're gonna look at I I got answers to my 20 questions We're gonna look at the scripture verses that he gives and we're gonna show people that argue for baptismal regeneration

That baptism saves you why that's a problem But what you see here is he's saying baptism

Josiah your baptism is not good enough You have to trust in your baptism, that's what you have to do not in case

Trusting your back Josiah not in Christ. It's not Jesus. It's your baptism. That's right

Yeah, I have to do it completely right like the Church of Christ does that's yeah And that's the thing is is the final justification

That he's talking about is not that Christ died on the cross It's not faith in Christ Sola Fide, it's

Sola Sola Baptismo Lost the word there, but do you think about it?

It's not The faith in Christ that saves you it's the baptism that saves you

Correct. And so so let's let's look here. He's gonna now give us the purpose for baptism ready to listen to this

You must believe and have faith in the Word of God Yes Okay, then you must repent of your sins

That is turning away from your previous lifestyle and choosing God's way Yes, okay.

You must confess your faith in the Lord Jesus as the Son of God Yes, you have to be baptized in the name of Lord Jesus Christ Yes, now he hesitated there because of the way you worded

Justin's and he's gonna explain that in a moment But now one you notice what Justin did there Justin did son that and we're gonna play the clip of me doing the same thing he's gonna go through Justin's going through all the steps that he's saying you have to do to be saved and He's gonna explain the purpose of baptism now

Check this out because this becomes very interesting as he gives an explanation of why the focus on baptism.

Okay, and You finally you have to live a faithful and holy life before as a

Christian Yes, and those are the those are things you must do to be saved Yeah in a little overly simplistic

Listing of a way. I mean when you say I forget how you said baptism

Have to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. I think is what you said. Yeah, but it's for a purpose

It's for the purpose of Being added to the body of Christ by Christ because that's what he said to do from last time all of you agree you know right along with that up until baptism and then for some reason

Baptism is different from all of the other things that you all agree with. It's not for some reason that's that's kind of a what

Andrew said last time was that It's because we say that you have to do that to be saved

Let's see, what did I say shall we let's check that out Okay, so you have to do that to be saved then, you know

Somehow it's a work salvation instead of a expression of faith. I am NOT here debating you.

I'm really not Okay, I'm here because I'm concerned for your soul. I mean, yes, you heard a change in in some of my once You started saying baptism says yeah, you heard a change in in in my concern for you

I admit that because now I am concerned for you when you say that and wanted to dig in deep and That that was a thing, but why just baptism?

I mean, how come how come you how come you don't include? The first four things

I said because baptism isn't you know, the only thing you have to do in response to the gospel

I Went through you know Based on the examples in the books of in the book of Acts based on those examples when you put those examples together

There's you know very specific things they did and I laid all of those out but it's only baptism that you're having an issue

For a very simple reason If you hear the word of god, are you saved? No If you hear the word of god and believe are you saved?

No, if you hear the word of god believe and repent of your sins. Are you saved? No, if you hear the word of god believe repent of your sins and confess.

Are you saved? No Okay. Now, you know why it's baptism Um Right, I mean

You know, this is why this is why I focused on baptism because those other four don't matter

Those are the four necessary But if you don't get baptized as as justin peters had had asked him

If you believe the gospel you do all four of those things you're on your way to go to church to get baptized

And you die in a car accident. Do you go to heaven? He said no And and you know what's incredible about that entire conversation

If he he tried to argue the uh, you know about the tertullian and all these guys in the history And as as as you know,

I went through and I did some word documentation Logos, I love logos. I get all kinds of stuff

Lagos, I call it logos. You call it lagos potato potato. Okay, so So the difference is i'm right.

You're wrong You're right except for when you're wrong so so the apostolic fathers is a book from uh, michael holmes

Uh, and it's it's quotes from the apostolic fathers on the didache And it talks there's a big section.

I don't want to go through the whole thing But it says now concerning baptism you're to baptize as follows after you have reviewed all the things

Of evidence of salvation. Yeah, it actually talks about goes through an entire list In other words you give time

You give it says you you give them time Let me help folks that may not know the didache is a first century document.

It was really the it was a document on How the church should function and why why?

Is what justin's saying? Why is that important because I I don't want people to miss that justin the argument that josiah uh, justin myself made in our five hours of discussions with preacher norm

Is the fact that the early church The true church never believed in baptismal regeneration

Campbellites are the ones campbell is the one that that started that thinking and That was the whole thing.

If you go back two weeks ago, that was why josiah gave this history on campbellites and It's the fact that this is when that actually started now

Were there people in history that believed baptismal regeneration There were some you could argue the catholic church sort of But the catholic church doesn't teach that baptismal regeneration

They believe that the baptism removes original sin Then you can be

Baptized in other words once you're baptized you're now then you have free will

So the baptism removes the the curse of original sin so you can have free will That's not the same thing that Campbellites and church of christ would be arguing

Okay, I gotta I gotta read this kt is right on the money The question is whether people are trusting in christ's perfect obedience

The death taking the punishment for their sins and his resurrection Or are they trusting in their own imperfect obedience?

Amen, 100. Hallelujah. Praise the lord. That is That is what he ends up exposing so so so let's let's look at this.

Oh, why did There we go. I don't know. Why doesn't he get rid of both of us? Josiah? I wasn't on purpose

Now i'm wanting to listen to this because this is this next clip is proof that pastor norm was never listening to us

Okay, this is a sign of pride when somebody is and we're going to expose this later is that Justin you could recite what?

norm was saying Okay, I was able to recite what norm is is believing

He could not do that with us Because he was never actually trying to listen to us. That's pride check this out

We've actually had this discussion andrew had this discussion for four hours three and a half hours, whatever it was

Um, he had this discussion with you explaining the issues of baptism What i'm asking you is

Um, he didn't explain anything to me Then you didn't listen to three and a half hours of the conversation

Okay Three and a half it was three hours Three hours and he didn't hear anything

No, he wasn't listening folks go back To the first episode on what is the church of christ and listen and see if I explained anything

Because we spend an awful lot of time in just one verse trying to explain One point that our sins were paid for at the cross according to colossians to 13 and 14 we spent a lot of time on that All right.

So this next clip Look how justin tries to clarify norm's beliefs.

Okay, and and norm's just gonna he's gonna just ignore it and You know ignores the facts without support watch this

Would you agree with these statements? You must be first. You must first hear the word of god You said yes

You must believe and have faith in the word of god You said yes

You must repent of your sins and turn away from your previous lifestyle and choose god's way.

You said yes Um, you must confess your faith in jesus as the son of god and you said yes

Yes, okay You have to be baptized in the name of jesus christ And you said yes and then you and then finally you must live a faithful holy life

As a christian, okay, and those are the things you must do to be saved now those six things

Are the six things that the alexander campbell? Held to in his faith statement

And and and those are his creedal doctrinal statements the same thing you hold to the same thing

The other churches hold to and and so the point for you to say is oh i'm autonomous And I don't believe any of these things.

I don't have any of these creeds no creed but christ unless of you're making creedal statements based on Alexander campbell's statements and his belief.

You don't have a monolithic set of that's wrong. That's what you're saying is wrong Well, I don't know what to tell you then because we just went through what you said

I went through the 1800s Uh teachings from alexander campbell I went through other churches to show that everything that you're saying you have a creedal doctrinal statement

Just like everybody else does you didn't just get it from the bible. You've made up things that you have come up to from other men

Okay, you're you're wrong. I know so notice the way he does you're just wrong Notice that he never supported why?

Pastor justin was wrong But yet what did you notice pastor justin was willing to go through what it is norm actually believed

And he agreed so so justin Accurately understood What norm's position was this is something folks you want to be able to do when you're talking with someone you want to be fair?

And accurate with what they believe by doing that typically

Typically Typically that people don't they're they're not able to they they respect you more now in norm's case pride

Overrides that now. Here's a comment that I saw from john. He says pastor. Justin is awesome

I just wanted to put that one up there for you. Justin So, uh, someone thinks you're awesome, but that was good what you did what be really careful when people start bragging on you because otherwise you get pride and all knocked down What we see is the pride of norm

In the fact that he didn't even try To understand what you were saying.

He just says you're wrong. Just you're just wrong just brushes it off Now that is that's not actually dealing with honest dialogue okay and so this next clip what we're going to see is

You know, he says what do I need to do to disavow myself from campbell? This was his one question

So we'll that was actually answered several times but i'll be happy to answer it for him uh

What what would I need to do? For you and your audience to disavow myself from alexander campbell walter scott barton stone

John smith, you know, what would I need to do here for you live on this program to disavow myself from them?

I do not claim them as my founder of anything. I do not claim them as a religious leader in anything that Has to do with me at all

So what more than that would I have to do? To disavow myself.

Okay. So now both josiah and justin had given the answer But the reason norm may not have heard and claimed that it was never answered

Is because norm was talking over them every time So maybe he didn't hear it

But they both said the answer Stop believing in what campbell believes Yeah, okay

If you want to disavow yourself norm of believing what campbell believes Then stop believing in the doctrines that he started

Right and you think about it If if I want to say I disavow atheism, what do

I need to do stop believing in atheism I disavow homosexuality

Stop practicing homosexuality I disavow campbellites Stop believing what campbell believed.

There you go. Okay, so so norm you asked the question probably four or five times You claimed it was never answered.

Let me be really clear so there's no question What do you have to do to disavow campbell stop believing in the doctrine that campbell created in baptismal regeneration

That's what you have to do. And when you do that, we'll believe you're not a campbellite But as long as you're believing what campbell believes and started and taught

We're going to believe you're a campbellite. Josiah. You look like you were going to say something Yeah well what he actually believes is kind of a conglomeration of Several points of view, um the

The obviously alexander campbell taught that you had to be baptized in order to be saved Now one thing he did teach that norm disagrees with is

That alexander campbell believed you could be wrong about baptism and still be a christian Walter scott said that the waters of baptism was what

Brought you into the blood of christ like the sacrifices in the old testament brought somebody to Christ's blood.

He thinks that's what baptism did. That's what walter scott taught um he's actually falling more along the lines of daniel sommer who separated from the

Church of from the campbellite movement to start the church of christ movement where if you disagree with me on anything and baptism, um daniel sommers was also in musical instruments paid ministers and And also people in the uh

Also people who go to seminary people who do that are not saved according to daniel sommer yeah, and and so what you end up seeing is

You know, he has these beliefs that campbell and these others held to let me just put this comment up real quick uh

You were looking at the same one clint little says striving for eternity campbell was searching for the bible truth

He came closer than striving for eternity. And so kt we love kt.

She's a regular here kt said chris little uh, I think you're confused about what the gospel is, but That actually where was the other one that I wanted to put up from her um, oh, here it is here it is, uh, it was actually, uh, captain black eagle who's a member at our

Uh on our youtube channel. He says clint little try joining striving fraternity to debate your ideas

Uh, you just go to apologetics live. It's scrolling at the bottom apologetics live .com. You can join us

Don't be a coward and just chat as a keyboard warrior. You can actually come in and challenge us

We're fine with that um So so let's go back Let's continue with this until someone comes in challenge us now this clip clip number 10 is interesting, uh

He has Biblical passages That he quotes or he claims that he quotes and I want you to listen to what he claims

We quote check this out because i'm gonna have an interesting comment on this and take you to Biblical passages for every single thing.

I'm not quotes from you know, john calvin made the okay not quotes from john calvin um

Just let me ask you real quick In your dialogue in two episodes with norm.

Did you quote john calvin once? Never, okay, not one time Real quick.

Let me point something out, too i've read uh about four chapters of calvin's institutes

And that's all I I was like, okay, this is i'm good with it. I'm good. I I understand

I've not even read all of calvin's institutes and it's two books full Yeah, pastor.

Did you quote anything from calvin? No, I don't even have my institutes with me here at my office

Yeah, and I spent three hours with him and I didn't quote anyone. In fact, you know what all three of us did

We gave him bible bible bible Now we have seen this before if you guys remember the debate that I had with r .a.

Fuentes From the philippines when he on the topic of calvinism and he accused me of getting all my theology from calvin

What was I quoting scripture? What were we quoting with norm scripture?

What is it when people say something like this? What's the goal? The goal is very simple to make it sound to the audience like you have a man -made doctrine, but I have bible

And yet what were we giving him bible? What was he ignoring bible? And it wasn't that we gave him calvin and he's ignoring calvin

Calvin didn't come into the discussion Um, yes, I have read calvin's institutes.

Yes. I have read calvin's commentaries I don't quote them. I don't know that i've ever maybe other than in a sermon, uh

There's probably one quote that I I know that i've i've given of calvin and it's not really a quote because it's translate translated into english

Factory Huh? Man's heart is idle factory. Nope Oh calvin had said that if you take god's word out of context

Which by the way norm did often we pointed that out if you take god's word out of context

You no longer have god's word, but man's word That's on calvin said and I think he's actually right

Okay, so, uh, what you you see is he's you know, we never quoted calvin now

Norm's going to claim in this next clip uh, he's going to claim That and I want you to listen to this because we're going to play this clip a couple times

And this is a key clip to remember I want you to remember what he says here because throughout the rest of this episode

You're going to see he doesn't do what he claims. He's willing to do He claims that if scripture says something other than what he believes

He's going to change it like that Public claim many many times on my podcast on other people's podcasts

Everywhere if if you can demonstrate to me where i'm doing something that I don't have new testament authority to do

My commitment is that i'll stop doing it like that Or that I am doing something that I don't have new testament authority for i'll stop doing it

Immediately my only aim at all Is to just be what the new testament says i'm supposed to be.

Okay, so if you show me where I'm not doing that I'll change show me in the new testament where i'm supposed to be what you're saying i'm supposed to be

Okay, so and and i'm just going to back up just a split second here

So you can see that because I was watching that and I put a comment up there um at that point

My comment that I had put was I did that two weeks ago when norm ignored colossians 2 13 and 14 so so What is this claim to do this this claim when someone makes a claim like this statements like this make it sound like someone is humble

That they are just looking at what scripture is says that they're going to follow that Regardless of whatever the evidence is they're going to follow that and yet We showed him evidence after six hours of exposing the problems with his beliefs he refused

To accept what scripture said Now here's the thing actions speak louder than words

He says He will submit to scripture And yet scripture was quite clear in colossians 2 13 and 14

That all of our sin was paid at the cross not at our baptism, which was what he claimed

The scripture is quite clear on that He has to play games with scripture to make it say what he wants it to say not what it actually says

He has to read in a previous thought That is supporting a different idea

Rather than deal with the actual thought of when our sins are forgive are paid for okay, we we spent a lot of time on that on the show that I was on with norm and so What you see is this sounds good to an audience it sounds humble but what and and he's saying this

But he's not doing this and we're going to expose that throughout this episode because several times josiah and justin

Gave him scripture got him stuck and instead of actually dealing with what they're saying.

He ridicules them and insults them We're going to see that several times Now norm is going to make uh, make it all about baptism in this next clip.

Check this out baptized you know like You all claim that you have been baptized and I would show by the new testament pattern that You didn't do what the new testament refers to as being baptized

Uh baptism is the point at which the new testament says not me not campbell not scott not whoever

Is when the new testament says That a person is joined with christ

Okay, so he's he makes it really clear there That baptism is when you become a christian baptism

That's when your sins are paid not as colossians Uh to 13 and 14 say at the cross

It's in your baptism And and we're going to get to this but josiah

And and justin did an x I I know i'm praising you guys a lot and you're just sitting there like just I I know but I I think

I just think what you guys did was what you handled this so well and what ended up happening with it was

They will expose later that it's not just the baptism. It's the water the water and he's going to deny that but it's the water um

So here comes an interesting question If you get baptized, can we lose our salvation?

after we're baptized which means Then that the baptism didn't actually save you but check this out.

This this was a great question that they asked It's a After baptism

Yes when uh when you um what the word that is

Okay, let me just stop that. Uh, uh that what he's doing there is I gotta think of a way to answer this because The answer exposes

I got a problem with my belief, but I don't want to concede that point Oh That's him trying to think

Trying it's him trying to think of a way to to have a Saving device for his belief system.

So let's check it out uh For what the new testament teaches is apostasy to apostatize

Which doesn't mean that you make a mistake or that you stumble or you know that that you say a bad word when you cross?

The center line and almost getting a wreck. That's not what apostatizing means Apostatizing means that you leave the faith.

You're gone. You you you you make the decision i'm not going to do this anymore

Okay, that's apostatizing okay, so so real quick uh

Let's just just for sake of you know, there is a passage that deals with apostasy and it's it's first john 2

Verse 19. Yeah, let me just read They went out from us because they were not really of us for Had they been of us they would have remained with us.

They went out so that it would be shown they were not of us

So scripture tells us it's not that they apostatized it's not that they believed and lost it scripture is really clear

They went out from among us because they were never of us they went out to expose they were not of us

Okay, so that's scripture What he's saying is all will our apostasy

Those were hypocrites that stopped pretending. It's not that they were saved and lost it And why did you say ask this because this is a real problem if someone's saved in their baptism and they get baptized

Believing that's going to save them and they do all this stuff How do they lose that? Right, this is their whole idea of a faithful life and stuff like this um

And I know i'm going through a ton here and josiah and justin are being quiet We're gonna get them talking in a moment

In a bit just so you got something you want to say to that Yeah, this is what kept me out of really the the cambolite belief system um,

I I have I have a grandfather and uncles and cousins Really close but this

The the idea that you know, you know, jesus said no one can snatch them out of my hand, but then

The idea that I can get baptized and then still get snatched out of christ's hand

Means there's there's no hope for me. I have to keep self -save Well, and that that's the point you're keeping yourself saved in this

I mean, that's when you're trusting in your baptism That's you who saved yourself ultimately jesus did whatever he did on the cross, but the ultimate thing that saved you was that water in baptism

That's what actually saved you and then you keep yourself saved through a faithful life So it's not about glorifying god and what god did for you.

It's about glorifying me and what I did. That's boasting friends That's exactly what ephesians 2 8 9 says not to do that's a whole argument

But now here's an interesting this next clip And this is you know at one point norm says well the good thing about Streaming is you can go back

Hey norm, guess what? We went back you claimed that justin was putting words in your mouth

Well, let's play that and then hear exactly what you actually said and see if justin put words in your mouth

Or was actually saying what you actually said you you talk about dishonesty Well, it would be dishonest to say you didn't say things you actually said and then say well folks you go back and listen

Well, we did here you go Okay, so so you you're saying that you you can you you bring yourself in by water baptism and you bring yourself out by no

I didn't say that don't don't make me say things. I didn't say. Okay. I'm trying. Yeah, but it's for a purpose

It's for the purpose of being added to the body of christ by christ because Baptism is the point at which the new testament says not me not campbell not scott not whoever

Is when the new testament says? That a person is joined with christ

Okay, so so you you're saying that you you can You bring yourself in by water baptism and you bring yourself out by no,

I didn't say that don't don't make me say things I didn't say I'm, sorry norm, but you did say that You said that twice.

Yeah, he said it several times and that's what that's why I was trying to I was trying to to see if he would clearly state

And restate his position because it it no matter how he goes about it He's saying that he has to put himself in the water

I mean you think about it you think about it. Justin peters asked the question he says

If i'm truly believing I truly repent I trust in christ and i'm driving down the interstate and to go to the church to be

Baptized and a semi truck hits me. Am I saved and he said no okay, so Going upon that Going upon all the statements that he was making.

I was asking the question Because i'm asking him. Josiah was

I was I telling him what he said or was I asking him? You were asking it was definitely a question

I was asking the question is this what you believe Based on what you believe

Do I bring myself into salvation and can I bring myself out now? Here's the reason

I said it that way If he put himself into the water and that saved him And he can unsave himself by apostatizing

Then his salvation is his own and it's not of christ. There you go boom That's that's the whole point

That's the whole point And I think you did an excellent job with that and that exposed it now I want you to watch this.

This is this next thing is I want you to know I I gotta say He accuses us of dishonesty

But I want you to watch what he does when he's backed up in a corner in his in his view

He's asked to support some claims Watch watch this Based on the gospels, can you show me where the gospels tell us about being baptized?

Let's just start there. Let's just start, you know, you have four books So, can you tell me about where the gospel? Sure? I mean, yeah

Jesus was baptized by john john tried to stop him and say I need to be baptized by you Because he recognized that jesus was sinless and didn't have any sins to remit

And jesus said permit it to be so for now for what to fulfill all righteousness So jesus wasn't obeying it for the remission of sins

Jesus was obeying it because it was a command from heaven, right if he if he had not obeyed it he would not be

Fulfilling all righteousness. He wouldn't be obeying. Where's that command from heaven? I need to say a bible verse

Are you serious? I'm asking you a question. You said it's a command. So the baptism of john was it from heaven or from men?

Didn't Didn't jesus ask that question to the pharisees. Okay. So what do you see you you watch norm use ridicule?

He uses ridicule to avoid answering a question and what did he do there? He answers he answers something different.

What did jesus? What does he do? What he goes to jesus words was was john's baptism of of god or from men?

Well, what was the question that was being challenged there authority? not salvation so so You saw in the emails he accuses us of the fallacy of equivocation

There's an example of him doing that He's using that two different ways Okay, the what jesus was doing was answering a question of authority the authority of john's baptism

The authority of what he was doing They asked him by what authority he does these things and he says i'll ask you a question by what authority

Does john do his baptism and that's a style of jewish debate? It's what you got to understand is at that time

The way it was taught is that you were to debate until there could be no stronger debate given

Okay, it wasn't just that you answer a question with a question you debate until there that the other opponent has to submit

And that's what was was going on at that time in the first century even before that at the first century, uh timeline the

When jesus gave an answer they refused to answer they had to submit To what jesus was saying because they said if we answer this people stone us to death

But but what I want us to do is recognize how how it is used in our day and age What this tactic does this tactic that he did?

Was first to ridicule you. Oh, I can't believe you're asking me this type of thing. Yeah, right And yet you asked a very simple question

He made the claim that this is a command from heaven and all you did was say Give me the scripture verse if it's a command from god

There should be a scripture verse and what does he do? He gives a scripture verse that's out of context

Now, what does that do? It makes it sound like he answered the question When he didn't

Okay, and he uses ridicule to make the audience think like well that was answered This is the but he answers on that sounds similar

But didn't actually answer the question So folks these are and i'm pointing these out because I want you to be able to recognize these when you see this

These tactics are not original with norm. These are common With a lot of people.

Okay, and this is not that clip is not the only time he's going to use ridicule

Here's another one where he's going to use ridicule again to ignore answering questions on his preaching on baptism

Where did they come up with the understanding of baptism? John's preaching. Okay So so what you're saying is is that that baptism is something that john initiated?

uh It was this is how this is going to go then. I mean, what's the point? No, I mean, are you seriously telling me that you don't know that john the baptist was preaching a baptism for their mission?

Okay, what was it that justin asked? When did baptism get initiated and he wants to start with john?

Well, guess what he uses ridicule because he doesn't understand something his story. He's showing his ignorance of history

Okay Probably because he didn't want to have to answer he claimed that baptism started with john

He says that uh, he says he does not know That baptism was hundreds of years before john

Okay, this is the thing. He doesn't understand what baptism is in a jewish mindset

Do you know why? Because baptism in a jewish mindset doesn't save you. That's right

Okay, and guess what if he had went to a seminary that would have taught him something

Then he would have known and he wouldn't be ridiculing people going to seminary saying oh you're not a christian because you're going to seminary

I'm, really tired of people telling me Oh, you shouldn't go to seminary because it's a waste of money and it's a cemetery

And it's a waste of time and you're not a christian all that look i'm getting my education So that I know

I want to be a student of the word of god. I want to know the scripture it is Important I mean the scripture is replete with a calling for men of god to know the word of god

So that they can teach it and defend it and i'm going to say we are going to go over two hours tonight Just saying no

Oh, yeah um Because I want to go through this and then I want to go through his answers And I want to explain why water baptism doesn't save but here's the thing.

Here's the simple thing you have to realize You have to understand what baptism represented historically

To understand what it meant to the new testament church baptism was something that people did that were gentiles that started to believe in The god of israel

Okay, it was the idea of saying I identify with the god of israel. I'm dead to my old life.

I live in a new life It was a symbol Now he's going to argue that it saves

And yet what is it this what's the common symbol of the old testament that it's always tied with circumcision did circumcision save well circumcision saved then only men were saved by the way, but Circumcision didn't save it was a sign of a covenant

Just like baptism is a sign of a covenant It's something that Is there to show us?

Something but it is not something that actually saved Circumcision didn't save baptism in the old testament didn't save he will argue as we're going to get to later that john's baptism saves

Wow that blew me away when he claimed that but we're we're going to get to that um that was that when you guys got into that that that kind of but he he shows here his ignorance of You know because he claims baptism started with john, yeah um

You know, this guy claims that he's scholarly. He likes his logos bible software Will do some study in baptism and you'll realize baptism

Was something that was done in synagogues for centuries before christ you can actually go on the

Uh the search engine there and it's got a fact book it's really cool you just hit baptism and hit enter and it gives you like and then just a library full of information

Yeah, so now this next clip norm is it claims that john's baptism saves and Okay, we'll get into this this is funny

Was the baptism of john salvific? Yes, so was jesus saved at his baptism, okay, so so let me back that up for a second that you know

Fulfilling all righteousness he wouldn't want to say where's that command from heaven I need to say a bible verse

Sorry, I went too far back, but I want I just wanted to hear this one part. It's a command So the baptism of john was it from heaven or from men?

Didn't Didn't jesus ask that question to the pharisee? So I want I want to replay this clip. It's short, but just just listen to what he said

Is john's baptism? Does it save on his preaching on baptism? Where did they come up with the understanding of baptism?

John's preaching, okay So what you're saying is is that that bad

Is something that john initiated? uh

It was this is how this is going to go then. I mean, what's the point? No, I mean, are you seriously telling me that you don't know that john the baptist was preaching a baptism for the mission of sin

Okay, here we go. Was the baptism of john salvific Yes. Okay.

That's a simple direct question, right? Is john's baptism salvific?

Yes John's baptism saves that's what he's saying Here's the problem that that he has

If he was to go to acts chapter 19 Okay You have in acts 19.

I'm not going to take time to go through that but you have in acts 19 You have some disciples that were baptized under john's baptism

And got re -baptized when they heard about christ they knew about john didn't know about christ hear about christ get re -baptized if john's baptism saved

Why do they need to get re -baptized? They didn't need to get re -baptized, you know John's baptism would have saved now.

Here's the point that that pastor. Justin is going to make And and this is a great argument if john's baptism saves

Why do you need christ christ didn't die yet christ hadn't died

So If john's baptism saved before christ's death Why did john have to die now?

Here's the thing you have to understand Look in the old testament did the sacrifices of sin?

Those all those offerings that were done. Did they atone for sin? Well, no

They didn't I mean Scripture will say that they they do in the sense that it is looking forward to what messiah would do

Okay And and that is the thing that baptism does that's exactly what baptism is

It looks back to what christ did on the cross that sacrifice Just as old testament sacrifices look forward to what the messiah would do our baptism looks back to what messiah did

Same with the communion that looks back to what messiah did it is the same symbolism

So in his argument to say that baptism saves would be to argue that People in the old testament were saved by their sacrifice

Their sin offering Well, if their sin offering saved them, then why did christ need to die if john's baptism saved them?

Why did they need to die? They don't Okay, yeah and that's the whole thing is when you add to salvation

Even the baptism of john and you say that that is salvific The the argument comes from many of the church of christ well from the the time of the death of jesus backwards

That was old testament old covenant and then from there acts forward his new covenant

And and the problem with that is is when you start doing that You go look at all the passages and I was trying to kind of work in those

I didn't get to deal with a lot of them But when you deal with the many passages that deal with people, you know the paralytic in mark 2 9 when you deal with people that are are

Proclaimed by Christ or you know or others but proclaimed by Christ. Let's say that to be saved

To salvation has come to them, you know Nicodemus you have Zacchaeus The the woman

You know, I'm sorry the the woman with the costly Ointment you have these these passages where Jesus says specifically that salvation has come.

This woman is saved this person saved If it's not through the baptism of John or if it's not through the baptism that comes afterwards

Then he lied Mm -hmm. There's no way getting around it if he claimed that these people were saved and if Paul lived his life and and and says

I thank God that I did not baptize any except for the house of Cornelius or a baptized a few others if if if he lived his entire ministry and did not baptize those then he lied to and And you made it you make an excellent point in this next clip because if Jesus if Jesus is baptism

They're sorry John's baptism before Jesus's death Saved that makes his death meaningless.

This this is Galatians to 2021 Right. I mean the death of Christ is void

Yeah, and that's really what it comes to check this out. So was Jesus saved at his baptism

Jesus stated the purpose for him being baptized was to fulfill all righteousness So With a yes or no.

Therefore if Jesus had not been baptized it would have been what? Unrighteous, I think that's a that's a fair Assessment, okay.

Okay. So what do you see Justin was just got done explaining like okay if if if John's baptism saved you

Before the death of Christ Okay, then it the death of Christ is meaningless so he so he asks a natural question, right

Well, then did Jesus get saved by his baptism J. Jesus was baptized Norm has a very difficult time with this.

I think you guys did an excellent job with this Because you asked him whether Jesus was saved as baptism because if baptism saves, why did

Jesus get baptized? Did he need to get saved? So if John's baptism saves and Norm says that Jesus had to be saved as a command from heaven which saves

It's a I mean not only is it a fair question, but it displays that norm has two purposes for baptism

John's baptism and the church's baptism both Both save but neither but neither save Jesus But he had to do it.

The question would be why? He doesn't answer that you asked him that he just says for righteousness

Well for righteousness. Well, why did he have to get saved? And this is the thing or so.

Why do you get baptized? The whole point is that now norm has two different baptisms

Now keep in mind he accused us of a fallacy of equivocation But he used the term baptism two different ways now because Jesus's baptism is not for salvation

But our baptism is that's two different baptisms now, and he's claiming that the reason we have to be

Baptized to be saved is because Jesus was baptized for righteousness But Jesus wasn't saved by it

You see the dilemma that he ends up in The reality is if Jesus is baptized if Jesus had to be baptized for righteousness sake and that proves that our

Baptism saves then Jesus had to be saved in his baptism. That was Justin's point

And then he had a problem there Okay, and so Justin asks a logical question based on norms response

All right Let's listen to that If John's baptism was salvific, then why did

Jesus Christ die on the cross? If it was already for salvation

Look, you're not interested in having an honest discussion here. I mean, these are these questions are

I mean, what is it? You're asking I've made the public claim many many times on my podcast on other people's podcasts everywhere if if you can demonstrate to me where I'm Doing something that I don't have

New Testament authority to do My commitment is that I'll stop doing it like that My only norm at all is to just be what the

New Testament says I'm supposed to be Okay, so if you show me where I'm not doing that I'll change

The thing is what we're trying to find out norm is How you

Is how you get your definition of Christian baptism and what it means and why we're not saved because we were baptized wrong

Apparently we apparently my being immersed in the Father Son Holy Spirit wasn't good enough so You know,

I Have this conversation with people, you know pretty frequently right and and you know, the question comes up Well, I have been baptized and my response to that is the same thing.

I basically said to you guys Did you do you believe that you were saved before you were baptized

I Mean yes or yes or no? Yeah Okay, well then you could not have been baptized for the

New Testament Stated purpose of baptism, which is for salvation because you believe you were already saved which is wrong

Okay, so so What you end up seeing there, okay Justin asked him a logical question, right based on norms response

You know, and what did norm respond with ridicule? By the way, folks, that's dishonesty.

I put that clip in so see you remember He said if he if scripture says something he

Immediately, he's gonna believe it Well, guess what? Justin pointed out that he had a problem in his view of baptism

Did he submit to scripture? No, he didn't These questions exposed the problem that norm has with his view of baptism and instead of repenting

He claimed that that's what he claimed. He would do instead. He insulted Justin and avoided the question altogether now norm accused

Justin of dishonesty when he was being the he was the one being dishonest Okay, and what you end up seeing there is

Josiah ends up asking a question. And what does he say? Baptism, you know is is baptism enough is does baptism save you he says you must be baptized

That that baptism saves you in order for you that you have to believe in that that the baptism itself is saving you

So baptism itself is not enough You have to believe that baptism saves you it's not enough to be baptized and this is what

Josiah exposed He trusts in his baptism. Not Christ, and I don't know if he caught that but Justin said

That he but he was baptized believing in G. He was saved in believing in Jesus Christ That's the difference

The three of us here tonight. We believe in Christ. That's who saves

Norm believes in his baptism His faith is in baptism and it's by water.

We're gonna get to that. He's gonna deny that he's gonna say Justin's saying things He didn't say We'll play that clearly, but it is the in the water of baptism that he that he is trusting it

Because death the death of Christ was not sufficient go back to the three -hour discussion.

I had with him That was the whole thing. He got upset with me He got upset with me because I made it about the sufficiency of Christ But the reality is if you have to be baptized and not only be baptized but trust that your baptism saves you

Then Christ's death is not sufficient. It's not everything You know, what's amazing cross plus your belief in baptism?

What I find amazing is is that in this conversation? And I didn't have time to get to these but if you go to Psalm 40 verse 7 and 8

I put it up here on the on the side chat It says in Psalm 40 verse 7 and 8

Then I said behold I come in the scroll of the book. It is written of me. I Delight to do your will.

Oh my god. Your law is within my heart. This is speaking of Jesus the Messiah.

Who's good to come? This is talking about The Messiah would delight to do the will of God and direct reference to these passages of him fulfilling all righteousness

It's not about That that this makes baptism righteous.

It's because it's the right thing to do. It's the will of God So Jesus is coming to do everything within the will of God I'm not the only person that's made that statement or made that comment

Pastor pastor and professor Doug Bookman's made that talk comment before The apologetics

Bible study has that exact same view. I hold that same view many people hold that same view

In fact, I'm going to say that most people who are not inside of the Church of Christ would hold that That it is about Christ fulfilling the will of God not about making baptism a necessary component of salvation

No, no this next clip Justin, let me just say that Norm is gonna say you're saying something he doesn't claim

That water the water saves And Let's play that, you know, hey

Norm Norm. I know you're watching guess what Norm you said? Hey, that's a good thing about streaming. You can go back.

Well, guess what Norm we did No, mm -hmm because you haven't obeyed him prior to that you have to have the water

So the better the water is what saves you? No, okay. Okay. Do you say just sizes?

So you have to have the water? Yes So Justin so the water saves you know Watch this the water's no

No, the water is not what saves you. Okay, the water doesn't save you. It's the expression of faith toward God that saves you

Hmm and you can't do that outside of the water No That's not the name of the

Father Son. Holy Spirit. It's the water that That's the element It's it's not the teachings of you obey to obey the command to be baptized

Requires water first Peter. Okay, so it requires water It requires water

So the water saves you you have to I mean he said it it require a requirement means it's necessary You need that water to save and then he says no no, it's not the water

But that's what Josiah got, you know, and you think about it Josiah you hit it right on the head So water is the method.

It's the means it's the mode. It's the mechanism. Whatever you want to call it That water without it.

There is no salvation Yeah, yeah according to him and Walter Scott, that's what

That's that's where the blood of Christ. That's where you meet the blood of Christ Yeah, I don't want to point that out.

He is teaching Church of Christ theology He's not teaching what what

Campbell and others taught so if he wants to disavow himself of Campbell and these others He should stop teaching what they came up with I mean, you know, he says

Church of Christ goes the Church of Christ goes back to the New Testament Now this is an interesting.

I'm gonna get this when we get to his his answer my questions, but it's quite interesting because We would argue and did argue that the church

Has throughout history not the Catholic Church. The church has always argued for faith by Christ alone

By faith alone not by works He claims no, no, no that started with Luther and yet We don't see in history this idea of baptismal regeneration really until Campbell and So you go, hmm

Where did he get his thinking from now? I got it with someone to give a super chat and a way to do super chat is in YouTube you can you give us some support and so as Hopkins gave a dollar ninety -nine and we always read these when we get

Superchat had some arguments with Luther's now Lutheran's same as COC COC for Church of Christ And and so we have been asked whether we'll address the issue of Lutheran's and I think that I'm not an expert on Lutheran's but we may get someone who is

To come on and basically help us with a view of Lutheran's because Lutheran's go back on apologetics life

Ken Cook did two debates with two different Lutheran's on baptism and whether it saves

Excellent debates, you know, you did a really good debate when people say oh

I can debate better than that You know, the other guy just lost because people that other

Lutherans are going. Uh, yeah. No, no, I'll argue that I'll argue that He didn't do a good job That's how you know and so Lutheran pastor if Somebody repents and believe and has faith in Christ Right before they're baptized and They you know, they they die before they're baptized.

Well, they still go to heaven. I'm every Lutheran pastor. I've talked to Sid. Yeah Yeah. Yeah. So now let's this next clip is interesting because we're gonna see the difference between norm and and what the way he behaves and Justin and the way he behaves check this out after three verse six

Talks about Abraham first Peter Yeah, because I said we need to look at the context of the entire thing is what

I was talking about Because it's not just one verse you see you accused us of only doing one verse We were doing actually the verse and then going out

There's Abraham, right? Right Sarah calling Lord. Okay, so that goes to the context of okay so the whole point that I'm making here you can giggle all you want and be as disrespectful as you want because it's it's

I mean, It's so it's oh, so the whole point. We're making a straw So no actually we were

Grasping straws. That's how you interpret Context. Okay. Hey, do you notice the ridicule?

And and why because he didn't want to have to answer the question Justin shows the you know, he displayed the difference in respect there

No norm is playing the victim. He's projecting his behavior on to on to others but norm is the one that's sitting there and Look norm context is this is how you interpret you claim to be someone who studies hermeneutics well, this is the way we look at a passage of Scripture we look at the context and Yeah, I didn't give the full thing.

But Justin had explained that he went back to the issue of Circumcision and and from there brought it back to how

Abraham was saved And so he's bringing that in and and you know norms like oh, well, you're bringing it back to you

Well, I don't know how you're gonna get that from there. Well norm. You didn't take the time to listen You didn't even take the time time to try to respect

Pastor Justin and understand what he was saying, but then you ridicule him as If he doesn't know what he's doing and he doesn't know how to handle

Scripture only you do That's prideful and think about this Andrew have you ever

Done any Bible studies or anything like that on the book of first Peter? I'm just asking just don't out there

I've been preaching through it in our midweek Bible study at grace and truth Bible Church. So they're all in line and by the way,

I listened to pastor Andrews preaching and teaching because It's good stuff.

But so what is first Peter? Who's first Peter written to?

Where would you find that at where would you find that I guess in the beginning of first Peter where he says it's written to Those who are scattered so it's to who?

Believers scattered believers who are scattered. Yeah, this is not a book written

To unbelievers saying oh, this is what you do. This is talking about the

Believers who are sanctified and as you go through if you follow the course of the entire conversation that Peters having

From first Peter 1 1 all the way down to this passage Which he only wanted to look at that one passage and actually not even the whole passage, you know

Corresponding to this baptism now save you but don't look at the rest of it. He only wants to look at that part I'll try to show you look at the if you look at that entire section 1 1 all the way to 321

That well the whole books if you look at all of it It has to do with the conduct and character even the willingness to die

And and he talks about he goes back to to Noah. He goes back to Abraham He goes back to these men that were willing to die

And what is it that's corresponding to that baptism now saves you Jesus Christ as the perfect example

It goes back to that the the fact that that Noah he went into the ark and he was saved from the water

Not in the water. It goes to the fact that Abraham Believing in God it goes back to to all the fundamentals of true faithful people

Who believed God and it was accounted to them for righteousness not because they went into the water

And so would you end up seeing there and we'll get to I was playing in that later I was that If no if that's what he's claiming that baptism saves

From that passage then guess what? Noah was regenerated by getting in the ark.

Is That what he believes? Absolutely not. He doesn't believe that but if he's gonna say that baptism saves us because Noah was saved through water

Then that salvation has to be the same. This is a fallacy of equivocation He's using the word saved two different ways.

He accuses us of doing this. He actually does that Cody brings up the the point here that we were trying to make is

That if Peter's talking to Jewish people explaining to them about their faithfulness

How can he be saying to them that baptism the water has saved you?

You know, it's not unreasonable to argue Talking about that primary text Talking to Jewish audiences.

Okay, and it makes sense It's Chris on holds that say I see must have said this earlier, but he says like I said earlier

He has predetermined What quote the Bible says unquote so he won't allow anyone to use scripture to correct him

Chris nails it You guys expose that and we're gonna see that coming up.

But this let's check this next clip out I'm listening.

I'm not I'm not giggling and laughing. I'm trying to actually have a conversation with you Okay, dude, seriously.

I mean it's you You I'm trying very hard because you're being very disrespectful and condescending and I'm telling you

I'm not gonna have much more patience for it I'm trying to have a conversation with you and You try to respond being disrespected and and belittled without being disrespectful.

I'm sorry Okay, notice what he does I mean

Justin showed how Justin was Respecting him throughout this you you can see

Justin's trying to be fair with him trying to understand what he's believing and what does he do? He's called out on his

Disrespect and what does he do? Well, oh, I'm being disrespected. He's playing the victim again

He's always playing the victim like poor me why because he wants you in the audience to believe that Oh, look,

I'm I'm being attacked here. I'm an innocent person and Yet the reality is he's the one doing this behavior.

He's the one using ridicule He's the one doing this and then he plays that. Oh that you guys are doing this to me

Ah, so I should be I should be respectful when you when you're not being respectful to me This is the whole thing.

He does in the emails that I that I shared earlier. He what's he doing? Well, you're not being honest.

Are you're dishonesty? The reality is you know what we're doing here. We're playing him in his own words

I doubt he's gonna be able to do that in context No, I don't say that.

He's not gonna take some clips and use them He will go watch his show. You'll see he will do that He'll take clips then go back and re -listen to the whole thing and you're gonna go.

Oh wait, those clips aren't in context Oops, sorry Yeah, because he won't be able to be honest just like he wasn't being able honest to be able to be honest with Justin He could he just couldn't do it, okay, why?

Because he is stuck in a belief and and and Chris already said it we're gonna get into it

He has preconceived ideas and though he says he'll he'll submit to Scripture Every time he was given

Scripture He denied what Scripture said for his belief system and we're gonna go through his arguments for how is baptism necessary for salvation?

I'm gonna go through every verse that he gave for that and I will show you he doesn't actually believe that Because that's not what the text says.

So he doesn't believe that what's that? He'll submit to Scripture He says he will but he won't actually do it

All right, and so Norm's gonna completely reject in this next one. I think this is the one where John asks him

John comes up with the issue of okay. What is the baptism of Jesus for could it be a priestly thing?

Listen to his answer Did you want to say something brother? I was gonna point out that Norm.

Have you ever considered that maybe? he needed to be baptized because it's part of the priestly duties and requirements for Christ to be a priest

To be baptized you're talking about the the the ceremonies of washing and dedication for the

Biblical priesthood and Jesus is not a priest after the order of Aaron but of Melchizedek So, no,

I have never made that connection because those don't pertain to Jesus priesthood Okay, so those don't pertain to Jesus priesthood because he's not of the order of out

Aaron He's of the order of Melchizedek. Well, here's a simple thing Norm Can you show me where in scripture or anywhere where we have the order of Melchizedek and what's required because if you can't

Then I think John's question is fair. Yeah Okay, the reality is

Jesus says he have to do this for all righteousness, but he never defined that He didn't say you have to do this because I need to be saved.

You already said that Norm So Jesus saying that you have to do this for our righteousness was not for salvation as you claim that we need to be baptized to be saved because Jesus was baptized because it when

Justin asked you you said no. No, no, Jesus didn't need to be saved So could it be?

for a priestly Or ordination, that's a fair question.

And you know what? There's nowhere in Scripture nowhere Nowhere in history.

Nowhere. Do we have an explanation of What it requires for the pre a priest in the order of Melchizedek to be ordained

And so what was no no, he completely rejects John's question just rejects

Jesus's baptism that could be used for priestly function based on the laws of Aaron's priesthood

While admitting that he wasn't of Aaron. He was a Melchizedek We know what's amazing about that conversation there is is and I didn't get to get into it

You know, it's there's so much guys. You got to understand when you're having conversations with with people like this

There's so many things that you miss That you don't get to have these big discussions over and you go back and you hear this over again

But you think about this what's the book of Hebrews written about? It's about Christ.

It's about Jesus Christ. And the fact of the matter is is Hebrews 1 Hebrews 4 for example

Therefore since we have a great what? high priest Who has passed through the heavens?

Jesus this son of God for we do not have a

High priest who cannot sympathize sympathize with our weaknesses But one who has been tempted in every way in all points as yet as we are without sin

Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace So that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in the time of need and the point is

Christ did everything necessary to fulfill the role of high priest As of the order of Melchizedek not of the order of Levi he

He subjugated overthrew that entire priestly role

By his perfection by his holiness And by his fulfillment of all righteous things every righteous thing that had to be done not baptism

But every righteous thing that had to be done every order of it Whatever it was that that we all mankind was supposed to do

Jesus did it perfectly and as the perfect high priest we have one that can intercede on our behalf

Not the way that the the ones of Levi did With the blood of bulls and goats, even though they were sinners

But one that was absolutely perfect and without sin And that is what he did

You know under the order of Melchizedek Good I want this next clip is interesting

Because what I want to show in this next clip is how Justin can rightly explain what norm believes

Why because Justin took the time to hear norm Go back to that original clip

We played two hours ago and you hear norm going I didn't hear I didn't learn a thing from Andrew Because he wasn't listening.

That was his pride Justin doesn't have that same pride issue. Justin can rightly explain and even defend what how

Norm is going to answer because he's going to rightly try to explain that view

He doesn't have to believe it to rightly understand it norm can't do that watch this The problem comes when you add anything to salvation um the bible says and galatians

Uh talks about the idea of the judaizers who wanted to add things to salvation now in defense norm believes

Um, he said it many times. He believes that baptism is part of the act of faith

We believe that salvation is of the lord alone That it is it is something that the lord and I don't so you're saying

I don't I don't believe that Uh, I didn't say that. I didn't I didn't say that What we're what we're saying is is it's not it's not through baptism.

It is by faith in the lord. Jesus christ Now now that's why I said what I said earlier about your baptism

Okay, so I want you to notice what what is it again? This is not the first time we saw this.

What did norm do? Norm ends up claiming so so justin is able to explain what norm believes

Norm doesn't like some of that. So I don't I don't believe that I don't believe Justin didn't say he didn't believe that Okay, he's explaining things

And norm gets all defensive, but norm claims again that justin is saying son. He did not actually say

Well, which one is being dishonest norm or justin? Well, that was norm that is being dishonest

Okay, this shows that that justin is trying to be fair with norm, but norm cannot be fair with justin all right, he cannot because because Those that he can't be fair with anyone that disagrees with him

Ultimately, it shows an issue of the pride that norm has you saw that there?

Well, and I don't I don't I don't believe that that wasn't the issue that wasn't what justin said it shows that he won't even listen

To what's being said? That's pride pride is one where it it says i'm right.

Everyone else is wrong He's not even taking the time to listen to what justin is saying Okay, he's not giving a fair hearing to what justin's actually saying

Okay, justin was actually trying to be fair with what norm's position is but norm has to play this game where he's oh

He's the he's the victim. He's the victim. He claims we're dishonest. Here you go. Here's another example of it.

You put a comment up there yeah, chris, uh

I appreciate you saying that you know, the fact is he says he doesn't even uh acknowledge my trying to Rightly explain what he believes he immediately went to attack, you know zero humility

And I was trying to honestly, you know, just say ask him and clarify Over and over again.

Okay. Is this what you believe? You know I didn't want to put words in his mouth. I just wanted to say is this what you believe and you know, it's

That's just where it was at. You know, that's what I understood him to be believing and saying I wasn't trying to be you know disrespectful of him at all and and I I got

I got to say I I was trying very very hard to have a conversation with him and it was like josiah

I think you and I talked about this He didn't want to have that conversation He wants a monologue and that's that's why

I think he's not on this show tonight I think he's not on this show tonight because He prefers the monologue where he can control everything and so he's going to do it on his own show

Where he can say what he wants and nobody can correct him Okay, but folks

I encourage you to go check out his show. He won't encourage be able to come here I'm sure but go check out his show

And correct him where he where he lies and says things that are dishonest now this next clip is a longer one

And this is going to deal with the thief on the cross which I I got to tell you guys, uh, justin.

Josiah your handling of this was excellent um This was this was actually brilliant with some of the stuff that you guys brought out

It showed that he has two different views of salvation You can be saved on a cross different than saved every other way

You could be saved on the cross because jesus declares you saved but everyone else had to be saved by baptism and so What's he going to end up saying he's going to use ridicule and be like well you get up on the cross

You get on the cross and you could be saved that way Well, you know what we're going to argue Everybody is saved by jesus claiming we're saved

Right, we didn't need baptism what jesus said to the thief on the cross was enough for every believer

If it was good enough for one, it's good enough for all but not only does he has two Different meanings of baptism.

He's going to have two different meaning two different ways of salvation now So this is a longer clip, but let me play this

You go to loop 23 38 This will start there This is talking about the crucifixion

Okay Okay so One of the criminals was there. He's hurling abuses at him.

He says are you not the christ save yourself? Okay, but the other answer no, I want to I want to stop this just to point out

I want to point out what justin just said because this is going to become important later that one of the two criminals

Both criminals I should say we're mocking jesus saying save yourself Okay, that's going to be an important thing

I called justin afterwards. I told him this is one area where I thought he kind of dropped the ball But understand something when you're in a situation like this, you have a lot of ideas going through your mind

You don't think of everything I had the advantage of Looking at this afterwards and hearing it four times because I listened to this four times

Live I listened to it on podcast twice and then I listened to it as I was getting these clips and so I understand that i'm i'm

I have that advantage but That's an important point. We're going to come back to all right both of the the

Thieves on the cross were mocking christ, but let's listen Abused him and said do you not even fear god now originally he started out, you know going against jesus

Okay, by the way, let me just stop for a second. I can't help it Does anyone else think that john looks like he's asleep there?

Is it just me? Is it just me that looks I mean I'm, just saying john looks like he's totally out

Okay, he has no chickens. It's not summer. He's sleeping. All right, let's continue Was he saved or not?

Which one the one that says, um verse 41

And we indeed are suffering, uh justly For we have we are receiving what we deserved.

Uh for our deeds, but this sounds like a penitent believer to me Yeah, oh, so he's penitent penitent

I mean, that's a pretty clear expression that that he recognizes that he's Uh receiving the due reward for his deeds.

So and okay, so he's he's repentant Right. He's trusted christ the savior

And as a result what happened? Uh, he jesus said assuredly I say to you today you will be with me in paradise.

So the man saved Yes, I have no doubt Our baptism

I have no idea whether he was baptized or not. So he was on the okay So he doesn't know if the guy was baptized or not

Right. I gotta admit justin This was a point where you're like what?

This is a I can't believe what I just heard moment that that blew me away You you like how when did he get baptized?

On the cross did he get baptized like when when when did that happen? I was just wondering if if jesus like threw water on him or something one of the guys was like, hey, let me

Enough to immerse him that he was baptized in the name of the father son. Holy spirit, right? Or maybe he's baptizing john's baptism for repentance, but either one needs immersion.

So, uh, but yeah Let's continue He was nailed to the cross.

Hold on. Let me get this right and you don't know if he was baptized or not The interaction between the thief on the cross and jesus

Makes it absolutely irrefutably Clear that this was not his first exposure to jesus, but this man has done nothing wrong

How did he know that? How did the thief on the cross know that jesus was somebody who had done nothing wrong? Hey, justin, you got an answer for that.

You're asking me to speculate on something. No No, no, i'm asking you're speculating.

You're the one that's doing the speculating So I just want to point this out i'm dealing with i'm saying I don't know whether he was or not

You're saying, you know for sure. He wasn't um, okay I could be wrong. I'm just gonna stop it for a second say it could be

The reason he's not sure is is maybe because the guy was on the cross and There was no time to get baptized because what the romans do what they do the romans took him off the cross

Baptized him and put him back on the cross Well, but you gotta think about it too being ridiculous really

But think about his his argument jesus and him met At some time the white spaces and when they met sometime the white spaces

He got saved and was baptized and he was just being punished for earthly stuff

And he was he was already baptized and saved except what you pointed out andrew.

I didn't get to to get to Uh, I I mentioned it in in passing, but I didn't get to go to the passage, you know and that's why

I put this up kind of over top of our our screenshot there is uh, just for clarity matthew 2744 the robbers both of them

Who had been crucified with him were also insulting him With the same words, what are they saying?

Well, you're the son of man. You're the messiah. Why don't you come down? They were both mocking mocking

And what happened when we're done with this because that's an important point That he totally missed it you know and and and josiah said in the private chat like You know, josiah said

I can't believe that he calls justin biblically illiterate after that response because he's showing his biblical illiteracy here

I mean he really is but You watch this watch the rest of this I know i'm saying

I know he was saved You claim that he was baptized. Come on. Okay. We're talking about baptism, right?

Where's his baptism? I'm saying the way you know, and I want you to guys to notice baptize baptize

We're talking about baptism watch because he's gonna he's gonna throw the baptism out in a moment Just watch the thief on the cross and oh i'm gonna be saved like the thief on the cross

Well, then climb up on a cross next to jesus and ask him to save you. It'll you know, it'll work. That's okay Okay, justin.

Thank you for calling out his straw man argument Okay, thank you. That's an absolute straw man designed to what i'm saying is the way that you present the thief on the cross

Is that this is his first encounter with jesus? No, he knew that jesus was innocent Then he said lord.

Remember me when you come into your kingdom Where did the people on the cross learn anything about a king? Same point as last time i'm showing you stuff that is right there.

No, you know you did and you're saying no It's not there. Don't look not in the text. Don't look absolutely not in the text and here's the problem

He had old testament truth He knew that god the messiah was coming.

He knew that he was dead in trespass and sin He knew that he was guilty by the standard of the law because he was a thief and a liar

He knew those things and he knew he deserved the punishment of almighty god He knew it just like you know it.

He knew it just like I know it. Okay, he knew it but because this man

Was dying on the cross and this the signet on top of him was this is the king of the jews

And the signet on top of him was saying this is the messiah the king of the jews. That's how he knew

What was in there? This man didn't have to meet jesus walking down some road that you didn't you don't find in the scripture

So that's how he knew jesus was going to have a kingdom after he died Because it's in the scripture in the old testament.

I don't know if you've read the old testament before but it's And we know certainly all the jews had a perfect understanding of what was there in the old testament about the messiah

Does it matter either way whether he actually does matter because jesus was still on earth Actually, it does make sense because the only way you can talk about salvation through baptism

Is you must demand that he had to have been baptized and you have no I don't really care whether he was or not

It doesn't matter because jesus looked at him and said this doesn't matter in paradise doesn't matter So whether he was baptized or not is irrelevant and i'm pointing out that you can't say that he wasn't

Um, so it's right there You can't read it. You can't see it because you're of your preconceived

No right here in front of everyone. It's it's really tragic what you did. I know it's pathetic

You added to the truth of the word of god by saying oh it had to have been It had to have been something that that nobody sees

Well hit this all this had to happen a bunch of stuff I didn't say Okay, so I I I I know that it was a little bit longer

But I wanted to and chris chris honnold says well done. Justin Now that is arguing from the scriptures and and it's and it's true now chris chris earlier said i'm just gonna put this up there real quick uh, chris said

Wait, so norm says he will change what uh What does if confronted with scripture what he does if the conference

Confronted with scripture, but when confronted with scripture, he goes to the white spaces

And bases his argument on conjecture exactly That's exactly what he did.

So So norm has has to claim that the thief on the cross was saved and baptized.

He was baptized before he was crucified and yet hours before He was mocking christ

So he wasn't saved hours before but somehow he was so so here's what norm's saying is the thief on the cross

Knew about christ prior to being crucified was baptized prior to being crucified

And yet was on the cross mocking christ as a believer And then then confesses that's a problem

No, the fact that he was mocking him Okay shows that he wasn't a believer and and and there was no time for him to get baptized

Okay, it couldn't have happened. He was on a cross now. I want you to notice that norm used mockery of justin

He he reveals two two different means of salvation One is on a cross you can be baptized

Without baptism and then a second way is that not on a cross you can be saved with baptism now

This is the the straw man that justin called out because he ends up revealing he has two ways of salvation

He says that jesus could declare someone saved and they're saved We agree with that That's how everybody's saved

So on the crosses is saved the same way norm if he saved would be I don't think he is because he trusts in his baptism

That's a work not in christ. But the way the three of us are saved is in christ declaring us saved

Okay That's the thing that was over and over again was said so After they provided an answer.

I want you to notice after they provided an answer to norm's question. What does he do? He denies that all jewish people don't understand anything of the old testament really

Jewish people understand the old testament because that's a simple answer. How would they know jesus was

The messiah well as justin said hey look above the cross. What does it say is his crime king of the jews?

What does the old testament say about the king of the jews? They would know something They they're they got three hours there that they're dialoguing with people that are shouting things out

They they know why jesus was crucified Pilate knew why jesus was crucified and he's not jewish

He understood the issues So so norm just rejects all of that all of it

To satisfy his preconceived idea and one thing real quick to add Because I didn't get to throw it in there, but I want to put it in here now.

So it's it's on record Why is it that they couldn't crucify him earlier and my my professor doug bookman points this out because from the time of of john the baptist

John the baptist had such a massive audience that it says that all of jerusalem was running out there to see him He declares this is the messiah.

This is the king. This is the one coming to take away the sin of the world Behold, he's coming. I saw the the clouds open up and the heavens, you know rent.

I heard the voice of god I saw the dove come down Proclaiming him to be the messiah and then throughout his ministry

He did all these things and they were scared of the people and they were terrified and when they finally did what they did to him

They had to do it in the cover of darkness and at night and stir up the people to cause This rhetoric against him.

It wasn't that they were they were Doing it with with uh, the the open discourse of all the people they were doing it maliciously

And hiding hiding back there the reason for that That it wasn't his time until that moment was because It was god's timing and they knew it

They knew it all through the scripture in the old testament They knew that jesus the messiah who claimed to be god

Would fulfill those things and all the people knew it as andrew was trying to point out just a minute ago

They had old testament authority. They were not ignorant They were just not being taught right by the pharisees and the sadducees, but they knew

That's why they said they threw they were going to stone him. What miracle? What what why do you why do you stone me for this miracle?

I don't stone you for doing a miracle. I stone you because you claim to be who? god god Yeah, you claim to be god and that's why they went to kill him

That's why the that's why the thief on the cross knew it because he was the most famous person in the entire region and everybody knew it

Now I want to point out in the clip that we played norm is norm claims. He's the one following the rules of interpretation

Okay, while he projects his behavior Onto you justin. Okay.

He was he he's shifting the blame On to so to avoid answering the question now

This makes the audience think that he's the one following the rules of interpretation when he isn't He said why can't you just see it?

It's right there in the text But it's not there where in the text does it say that the thief on the cross got baptized it's not there

You point it out. It's in the white space He's assuming that He's assuming that jesus that he must have been baptized before he was on the cross because he knew something about jesus

Why because his preconceived idea that you must be baptized to be saved this guy saved so he had to be baptized prior to the cross yet Hours before he was mocking christ

Therefore he was not a believer hours before and somewhere in those couple of hours He became a believer without baptism.

You guys did an excellent job in pointing that out This is a big major problem for him and he's going to end up Just throwing out the bapt like you don't need to be baptized if you're on a cross just toss that out

Because jesus declared you saved Now the thing is is that he says the only way he's implying at least the only way jesus could declare you saved as if You're on a cross with him

I would claim every way jesus can claim all of us saved anywhere

Not just on a cross and that's how all of us are saved. We don't need baptism

Now norm has to claim that the text says what it does not say Because he needs it to say it because of his belief system

Because he wants the bible to say what it does not say Okay, this is because of his preconceived ideas.

He called you pathetic justin Pathetic now an insult when someone has to resort to an insult.

It shows that they have lost the argument and they know it They use insults with folks whenever you see someone insulting you it is don't

Like give in to the insult when they insult you it they're exposing that they know they lost the argument

Capitalize on that jump on that don't focus on the insult focus on whatever you said

Because what you just said? Is the thing they want to avoid? That's why they insulted you.

Okay, so an insult is a sure sign that someone has lost an argument But does not want to concede

By the way, that's another sign of pride Okay And so let's continue with more of what he has to say

Now here norm is going to claim that justin is claiming something. He that uh, he's going to claim again

This isn't the first time it isn't second time Third time we've shown this where he's going to claim that that justin says son

He never claimed and we're going to play what he actually said And i'm not going to let you say a bunch of stuff that I didn't say.

You've been doing that all night That's another straw man, and it's actually not true

I have been dealing with the text and you have not been that's a good thing about you know streaming is because it's there

Oh, it's there. You said this man was saved. Okay, so it's it's there.

We've been playing it over and over And Thank you that we're streaming because we got to we get to see what you actually say

And you claim that justin didn't you know, it's making you say things you didn't say but you did actually say as as we heard in your own words that You know the thief on the cross was

Baptized somewhere. We don't know where Okay, so let's go back and see if norm actually said that the thief on the cross

Could be saved without baptism, which is what justin was claiming. He said let's just see

Okay Yeah, I mean it's very obvious. He was jesus said you'll be with me the same paradise without water Sure without baptism.

I I I can I can go along with that, right? It doesn't matter whether he was baptized or not. That's what it is

It is amazing to me how biblically illiterate people who claim to know the bible actually are

I mean, it's really astonishing And okay, so I want you to notice I'll just ask you guys a question.

I'll let you guys be the judges Did he or did he not say? That the thief on the cross could be saved without baptism

You you guys be the judge Because it sure sounded in his own words. He said

He's okay with saying that he wasn't baptized Sounded like it note the disrespect also and the insults to brush off What what justin's saying that exposes the falsehoods of norm's beliefs?

Norm knows he doesn't have an answer. That's why he had to resort to insults Notice that in what three hours

I had within two hours the two you guys had we didn't insult him We didn't have to resort to that over and over again norm resorts to that Why because he lost arguments, but his pride will not let him concede

That's prideful Remember norm said he would change he would change if someone could present scripture

Well, justin and josiah presented scripture the thief on the cross, what did he do? He first tried to claim that well, the thief was baptized.

He must have been it's right there in scripture Where in the white text justin says? So, what does he say?

Well, I don't he doesn't need to be baptized. Jesus claimed him saved. That's enough Well, if jesus can claim someone saved and that's enough

Hey norm That's what we believe by faith alone Jesus declared us saved we don't need baptism

Thank you very much for conceding your argument and agreeing with what we have been saying all along That just as the thief on the cross could be saved because jesus declares it.

So are we That's the reality one thing i'd like to point out, um is that We after I heard him say that uh, it took everything

I had not to insult him back But I knew if I did insult him back It'd make me no better than him and that would close the door for me sharing the gospel with him

I really wanted him to hear the gospel because you don't You don't just insult people like that It's it's not just rude.

It closes doors if he really believed that we weren't saved he should have been sharing the gospel with us not salting us and Obviously dragging justin's name through them.

We need to be praying for this man I agree. I agree and and I want you to notice how in this next clip

Boy this I I knew we were gonna go a little bit long. I thought maybe an hour to go through this

I was wrong We're we're already, you know, two and a half hours in and we haven't even gotten to his questions.

So we're gonna go long tonight. I We're on anthony time. What can I say? And anthony's not even here.

Um But I want you to notice on this next clip how he plays the victim Okay Watch this the points here um funny when every time

I try to use a parallel passage I get Chided for wanting to run away from the text. So okay because we're trying to deal with the text

My friend the whole point that she's making to you is you're jumping all over the place You're jumping all over the place.

I'm asking you specific questions. So how do you gather the information? How do you gather the information if you don't go to different verses that talk about that same thing?

Okay So he's gonna he's trying to make it and this is kind i'll tell you just honestly

This is frustrating as a person whose expertise is in harmonetics this this art and science of interpretation

Because he claims he understands it and yet he breaks the basic principles of harmonetics

Okay. Now I want you to notice first off how he plays the victim. Okay and misrepresents

What he's doing with different texts, okay What he was doing over and over again is isolating a text

Taking another text isolating it from its context and then putting it together. That's called proof texting.

That's not how you interpret Because what he's doing is taking one passage out of context another passage out of context slamming together

Slamming them together because they happen to have the similar words and then saying oh, that's a doctrine

Okay That's not how you do it harmonetics and if he knew anything about harmonics he would know that He isolates the text takes it out of its context use it with another one

To to do proof texting now. Justin tries to show him the importance of reading in its context then looking

To the other text and that's how you do it. You take the one context look at it in context

Do your interpretation go to another passage of scripture look at that in context make sure that the contexts are the same

And when they're the same Then you end up Going in and saying okay now that they're the same you put those together.

That's the proper way That's not what he's doing and and justin was trying to to point that out. Okay, so norm claims to have

Several books on harmonics. We're going to look at those when we look at his answers to my questions And and some of them are very technical ones and yet he violates the very basic rules of interpretation either he hasn't

Understood what he read Or maybe he really hasn't read them. I don't know but the basic thing any any any any

Harmonetics book is going to tell you you start with the immediate context you start there you you

Study that out Then you go to another passage and you study that context and make sure the two contexts agree

And if they agree, you can put them together. He's not doing that And he was doing over and over.

He was not doing that justin tried to point that out And this is the thing that you end up seeing he's he oh i'm the victim here

Because he wants you as an audience to to feel sorry for him Because the way he's treated and he's going to go on his program and and and play the victim and go oh

Look at how these guys treated me. They treated me so wrongly Just real quick.

I want to point something I'm, sorry norm norm I i'm going to say this with all sincerity

Grow up and be a man stop being playing the victim if you have to play the victim

Man up Stop being the coward man up and deal with the scriptures. You said you'd submit to scripture do it

The one thing I want to point out was when we're talking about dealing with the context the immediate context You can you can say this one passage and you can look at things that way but if you do that Think about like this

If I was to say four score and seven years ago You know when I was seven years ago four years old

And say those two things mean the same thing you're going to understand That i've just taken a little section of a famous discussion

Four seven years ago. That's something biden said, right? Oh, wait, i'm sorry, i'm, sorry he does the same he just just takes other people's stories anyway

So you understand if you take that little bitty section out That's taking it out of context. It has a full meaning and and you have to understand

You have to understand that every single book of the bible is a letter written to someone or a group of someone's with a contextual purpose

So you don't you don't go outside of those contexts of that book or that chapter

Before you deal with that book and chapter because you can be talking about uh, james talking about you know faith saving

And paul talking about faith saving in two different contexts and try to make them mean the same thing

And you are dishonoring the word of god and you're not being faithful to scripture You have to deal with each passage within the context of the chapter within the context of the book

And then you go outside Because if you don't know the context of the book first You will go to another passage and you will you can you can possibly decimate your theology

By trying to say this one and this one and this one and this one this one and it's called proof texting Yeah, and and i'll challenge anyone go back to my three -hour discussion with him and you will see me explain exactly that And that's why he wanted to keep going to all these different passages

He wants to jump around because he doesn't he doesn't want to deal with the context of each one of these

And we're going to deal with the context of those. All right I know this is going to be a longer show but watch this next this next clip

I want you to watch how josiah is going to deal with this because josiah is going to admit his preconceived ideas

He's willing to admit that and and this is the thing the whole argument is

That we are arguing that norm has preconceived ideas that he brings to the scriptures, but he's going to deny that We don't deny that we admit that we have preconceived ideas

We look at the scriptures with our preconceived ideas and challenge those preconceived ideas

He doesn't do that. You know why? Because he doesn't admit he has them Watch this

Uh, we all have preconceived ideas whether whether we like them or not, um that yeah, we're

We're going to be influenced by people who've taught us It just like you've been influenced by people who've taught you okay, well

I was I got some preconceived ideas of my own and I i'm going to admit them

I'm going to try to check them at the door whenever I go to scripture Right, and i'm going to try to go in so what are my preconceived notions?

Okay Did you see norm shaking his head up and down? Yes. He agreed with that. Just notice that Well, I mean

Preconceived What would I need to do to disavow myself so those are preconceived preconceived notions on my part not yours

I didn't say that Okay, that's you're twisting his words, okay,

I want to point I want to stop it there to point this out, okay Because this is going to be really powerful in a second.

I want you to notice how Josiah admitted multiple times. He had preconceived ideas.

He knows it. He checks them norm claims that josiah is saying that He doesn't have any preconceived ideas just just after he said he does and he checks them

Norm, are you listening? I mean, that's the whole thing this shows pride

He was it's like he's not even listening to what josiah is saying. He's just he's got an argument.

He wants to make Folks you're going to deal with people like this when they they're prideful You're going to deal with people that they're not listening to what you're saying

And you have to recognize that and call out the pride that that is norm's going to claim josiah

Says that he does not have any preconceived ideas after he says he after he admits that he does

Norm claims he does not have any preconceived ideas when it comes to scripture

Okay, watch this as norm's going to make that claim that he has no preconceived ideas

None at all because he's he's he must be a perfect man Is josiah is going to say watch this you're saying this conversation for the whole past hour and a half is over my preconceived notions

And i'm saying I don't have absolutely And see that's and and that's what makes the difference right acknowledging that you may have some preconceived notions and purposely

Putting them aside when you go to study the text because you're saying this conversation for the whole past hour and a half is

Over my preconceived notions and i'm saying I don't have this You don't have any preconceived notions at all

Not when I go to scripture to to study the scripture. No Wow That's amazing.

What is my preconceived notion there? Okay, do you guys pick up? I mean, that's just amazing as he's saying he's telling josiah what to do when it comes to studying scripture

You have to check your preconceived ideas at the door, but he doesn't have any I mean you you see him claim outright.

He has no preconceived ideas When it comes to scripture But josiah needs to check his at the door

And yet the whole thing that you end up seeing is as we saw in the two episodes We had this guy on what you see every time we come to scripture.

What does he do? He's he's coming to it with his preconceived ideas. Let me just put this up what chris says wow

Just wow chris on holds from voice of reason radio I mean, I agree with you chris.

That was just amazing that he would sit there because He has preconceived ideas and here's how pride works

He has them but pride blinds people to their own belief system

So he doesn't believe he has any preconceived ideas Because that's what pride is doing to him

His pride blinds him from his own preconceived ideas. So when he comes to a passage like colossians 2 13 and 14 that clearly states that all of our trespasses were paid at the cross

He has to read into that that that's the law of moses And our trespasses were paid in baptism something the text doesn't say when he is the thief on the cross

He has to say he was baptized. He had a knowledge of christ was baptized before he was crucified

Why because the text says so no the text doesn't say anything like that. The text says he was a mocker and then became a believer

But he has to believe that because of his Preconceived ideas his preconceived ideas is what's driving that Okay.

Now I have two more clips for us Did you have something you want to say? No, I just agree with you completely because it's it's based on the prior teachings that he's submitting to from the cambolites and from the church of christ, which is

Apparently they don't have doctrines, but they doctrinally hold to everything else each one that holds to Yeah, and and so justin, uh, josiah, go ahead

Well Yeah, he he he clearly has preconceived ideas. We we saw it with the thief on the cross

We saw it with him in first peter And when we go when he when we go on to ephesians 1 13 he he says that he

He immediately brings the preconceived ideas into the text. He says Paul would not have talked to the ephesians about baptism because they were baptized twice

Yeah, and and and That was interesting that he brought that up I didn't I didn't clip that but that's an important point because he admits that they were baptized twice

Just like acts 19 Why did they need to get baptized twice if john's baptism was so difficult?

Right, I mean this shows the inconsistency but instead of submitting to scripture, what does he do?

He doubles down on his false teaching Okay And so let me play this this next clip and I want you to notice this is amazing because he talks about the faith only system

Let's listen the faith only system of salvation that you teach it definitely had a man -made origin with uh,

Luther was probably the earliest recorded one Luther luther, okay.

So let me get this straight this started with luther Okay, it didn't start with huss

Who luther got it from? No, it didn't start with wickliffe who

Huss got it from and it didn't it absolutely didn't start with augustine who

Wickliffe got it from and it definitely didn't start with paul who

Augustine got it from I mean, i'm just saying it just couldn't have been there's no way that's possible. It started with luther

This shows his ignorance of history I mean, he doesn't understand history.

He claims it's a man -made doctrine and yet what we see historically is that Faith only belief was something throughout history that was taught and the catholic church killed people for believing it

The catholic church didn't kill people for believing baptismal regeneration like he believes

In fact, they kind of supported something similar but not exact but where in history do we have his belief system?

When did that start? Campbell Oh, wait, he disavows himself from campbell

So so does he not know about huss wickliffe and augustine what about paul

Okay, he claims this is about us Being a believing a man -made doctrine

That we get from scripture Now, what does that do this whole thing when he when people make an argument like that folks?

What the purpose of that is do is to say hey, this is man -made, but what I believe is the bible I have the truth

And we're going to get to that in a bit with his view of the truth um Okay, captain black eagle who's a member of our youtube channel says the catholics dug wickliffe up and burned his bones

They did they so hated 100 years Afterwards, he dug up his bones and burned him because he believed in faith only belief

Okay, so so you can't say it started with luther that just historically inaccurate

And and if you go back and you talk to about the tertullian you go I mean, and I know people have problems with tutelaine

He's got things wrong with him But but if you go look at what he wrote if you look at the dedicate if you go look at saint jerome

If you go look at you know boniface you look at so many different teachers you can go throughout church history guys this is why

When people tell you don't study or that you're you're not a christian to study That's what rome taught.

Yeah, you you shouldn't study because it's only for the faithful Guys, go study get you a logos.

I mean we have logos Let's take a break and put that up there. Where's that at?

um We have logos That's that's on bitly Andrew what's the what's the address in is a bit.

Oh, why slash sfe logos? Look, not logos logos.

Go get it. You'll get five free books Go get it guys. You don't have to be, you know, just listening to these guys or listen to us

Go study the word of god and and get into the meat of this it is Look, we live in an age where people

Want us to to stop reading the scripture and they we live in this age where it's Where it's so easy to have the information and we don't want it people don't want it

They just want to make up their own doctrines and things like that And i'm going to tell you That when you get when you just get tired of reading and studying and listening to us and listen to norm

What do you need andrew? You need a pillow well, no, I wasn't going to get there yet, but oh, come on you need a pillow

Josiah Look at that. He's got his my pillow. I was gonna wait

I was gonna wait until after I got finished with the next segment, but josiah got up to get his pillow

So, all right, if you if you want a pillow go to mypillow .com Use promo code sfe you could sleep as well.

Josiah there is sleeping every night Or you can call 1 -800 -873 -0176

And use promo code sfe to get yourself not only a great pillow But just know they also are supporting striving for eternity.

And so we appreciate that from them All right. So with with that aside, let me just say

I mean, here's the thing that you end up seeing that clip uh norm claimed that The fact that he claims an understanding of church history while ignoring all of church history

Okay, he shows his ignorance of church history where he makes these claims And what he what he ends up believing is something that started with campbell

All right, and and he doesn't want to accept that he doesn't want to associate with that So let me play this this last clip

This is the last clip and then we're going to get to some some questions This took longer than I hoped but here's the last clip and I want you to note that You know what what he's going to claim norm's going to claim that every text of faith alone is of dealing with the works of The law of moses so and we're going to deal with that in a moment

And and we went through that last time that every single verse you use where paul is saying not by works every single one

It's in the context of him refuting The the binding of the law the old law of moses on christians every single one of them

You're saying this conversation for the whole past hour and a half is over my preconceived notions and i'm saying

I don't have this He doesn't have any preconceived notions. None at all. None at all

But every text is dealing with uh Hmm The law of moses.

Well, let's look at that and and had he come on. This is what I wanted to deal with romans chapter 4

So this is where I was going to do the commercial but uh, but since you did it already So romans chapter 4 is now notice folks.

I want you to notice something what I do when when doing debates like this Notice what

I did last time with norm. I didn't focus on a whole lot of passages of scripture Just focus on one or two

Zoom in on that and deal with that while they jump all over the bible everywhere Ignoring the verses that are clear

Just stick to the clear passages of scripture. And that's what I ended up doing I focused on one real clear passage.

That was colossians 2 20, uh, sorry colossians 2 13 and 14

Had we had this discussion had norm not been the coward to not show up here

Yet norm I called you a coward because you didn't show up you said we you invited us

Both times you did not Go back and listen to the streams Maybe once you gave some general invitation

But to say that we were not willing to show up on your show and therefore you're not going to show up I know that makes you sound like you're righteous and you're you know, we're doing something wrong

It also exposes the fact that you didn't actually invite us on both of the shows Shows that you're just claiming that because you want to weigh out you want to weigh out because you're a coward

Yes, I called you what you are you're prideful That's been exposed.

You're a coward Because you don't want to have a dialogue you want a monologue.

That's why you're going to go on your show You know that we're too busy We we actually have things to do

Both Justin and I Justin's in school pastoring a church.

I had I do Striving fraternity. I pastor a church. I do other work on the side to pay bills

Very busy. I don't have the evenings to be able to do that That's why we invite you on here, but you don't want to come on because you don't want the dialogue

You want to run the show? I get it. I know I understand roman's chapter

Go ahead I I would go on but I again the uh

I got the same problem as justin does i'm in seminary full -time at liberty and i'm pastoring a church

Yeah And and it's not easy to do those two You know, so so let's look at roman's chapter four.

Why do I go to roman's four his argument is that Every text you heard him say that every text

Has to do with the law of moses Uh, what does he do with roman's chapter four? What shall we say then?

That abraham our forefather according to the flesh has found For if abraham was justified by works

He has something to boast about But not before god For what does the scripture say abraham believed god and it was

It was credited to him for as righteousness now

To the one who works his wages is credited to his favor but as to what is due

But to the one who does not work But believes in him who justifies the ungodly

His faith is credited as righteousness just as david also speaks of the blessing

On the man whom god credits righteousness apart from works

Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven And whose sins have been covered blessed is the man whose sin

Is Whose sin the lord will not take into account

Is this blessing on? the account of the circumcision or on the uncircumcised also

For what shall we say? Faith was credited to abraham as righteousness How then was it credited?

While he was circumcised or uncircumcised Uncircumcised Not while he was circumcised, but while he was uncircumcised and he received the sign of circumcision a seal of righteousness of the faith, which he while uncircumcised so also

That he might be the father of all who believe without circumcision

That righteousness may be credited to them And the father of circumcision to those who

Not while and not only are the of the circumcision but also

Follow in the steps of faith of our father abraham, which he had while uncircumcised for the promise to abraham

Or For the promise to abraham or to the prominent to his descendants

That he would be the heir Of the world was not through the law

But through the righteousness of faith For if those who are of the law are heirs of faith

Faith is made void And the promise nullified

For the law brings about wrath But where there is no law

There is no violation For this reason it is by faith in order

That it may be in accordance to the grace So that the promise will be granted to all the descendants

Not only to those who are of the law But also to those who are of the faith of abraham

Who is the father of us all? As it is written a father of many nations.

Have I made you? In the presence of him who he believed

Even god Who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which

Did not exist in hope against hope

He believed So that he might become the father of many nations according to that which has been spoken

So shall your descendants be Without becoming weak in faith.

He complimented his own body Now as god as dead

Sorry, sorry now as good as dead since he Was about to about a hundred years old and the deadness in sarah's womb yet with respect

To the promise of god. He did not waver in unbelief, but grew strong in faith

Giving glory to god and being fully assured that what god had promised he

Was able to perform therefore It was also credited to him as righteousness

Not for his sake only Was it written that he was it was credited to him but for our sakes also

To whom it will be credited As those who believe in him who raised jesus our lord from the dead he who was delivered over because of our transgression

And was raised because of our justification. Why do I read that passage because abraham was prior to moses

You heard norm claim that every passage dealing with works is the law of moses every verse

Roman amen Amen. Amen. Yeah, jason is saying amen and amen Romans chapter 4

I read that entire chapter for this very simple reason Abraham was before moses norm

Abraham was before the law norm Abraham was saved not in his circumcision norm.

In fact, he was saved years before circumcision

So if circumcision is the sign as baptism is the sign guess what norm? Abraham was saved without the sign

He was saved by faith alone Hey norm, I know

I know you want to say that's something from luther. There's paul saying it josiah Yeah, he was saved without the element of water that norm says is part of faith

That's required Yeah, that's required by god your water is faith

And you don't see that anywhere in here with with abraham no water was required for abraham

So was there two ways of salvation? Hmm Was there a salvation different in the old testament where you didn't need water you didn't need baptism

You're going to say it's by circumcision. Then. How is abraham saved because Scripture norm that you say you'll submit to scripture says abraham was saved prior prior

To circumcision prior to the time not only there, but if you think about it What is uh romans romans 5 12 and 13 talking about Where'd sin come from was it from abraham or was it something that that abraham was was uh responsible for No, it started with adam.

Yeah, the the the the law he's trying to talk about um professor michael vlock

He actually talks about that The law is a creation reality and the reason he talks about it that way is because it is the profound personification of who god is

It's talking about he's not a liar. He's not a thief. He's the one true and living god And and so when he speaks to adam and eve adam and eve and he tells them the truth

And when he tells them the things that of himself, it is truth and they're required to believe it

And what happened when they disbelieved did they just say well, you didn't you messed up?

So it's not a big deal or what happened when when you know, kane killed abel? Oh, well, you shouldn't have done That's not big a deal.

What happened when all the people were involved in all the sexual sin and immorality That that god flooded the the world for were they under the mosaic law?

No They were under the creation reality of the mandate of god You will believe in him and you will do and submit to what he says

Because he's the creator and he's the one good god. And if you don't you are in sin

And that's what that by the way, that's what a and i'm not bragging to myself That's what a a biblical and a doctrinal educational will give you

When you go and learn from people like dr. Michael vlock and and even like mass andrew rapaport

Guys, he's got a great apologetics, uh, um striving for eternity

Class that teaches how to do biblical hermeneutics and how to study the word of god on youtube

Before I ever even came on the show my kids and I would drive up to see my

In -laws and we would sit for hours and we would listen to this Andrew knows it we used to sit and listen to this stuff and it's because it's important you go to matt slicks

Uh matt slick and and and karm and you can learn these truths. You don't have to sit there and say well, let's just you know

Bring it out of thin air. No, the word of god is powerful And it's true. He also has a really sorry

I was gonna say He has a really great systematic theology, uh program, too on uh on striving that teaches, you know

Stuff on baptism and the history of baptism and why baptismal regeneration doesn't mix well with it

Josiah and I we you know Josiah, he right

I'm writing papers So, you know, maybe we can get them made into something for this, you know for the strive for eternity or something

But but i'm too busy writing paper. Josiah. He's he's busier than I am and he writes more than I do but he writes this stuff so that people will understand and we don't have to Be ridiculing we can just study and say this is the truth.

Yeah And so you can go and check those out of the striving fraternity academy. I think it's striving fraternity academy .org

Just go to striving fraternity .org and go to the academy and you can get the the

Hermeneutics biblical, you know hermeneutics class or you can get the systematic theology class You can see all of josiah's and justin's articles.

They're right there and so, um I want to get into the questions. I know we we've been three hours.

We've been long Let me let me first just announce the i'm going to end the poll and announce the poll that we started with um

And so we we gave you three different, uh options for the andrew rapert's rep report

And the poll ends up being that 44 percent chose option one uh, 38 percent chose option three and 19 percent chose option two

So i'll point out that I already told him which one he should go with and it was number one

I like it and my preference was number three. So, you know, I mean that That came up as you know, just saying just just what you need to do is color in the hair a little bit better and and show show the wisdom of your age because the bible says

That a great headed man should be shown respect and honor. Look look I only have gray down the middle.

So I look like a skunk. Okay, so I mean give me a break.

All right, let let me um, let me just share real quick um the questions that I asked of Norm preacher norm and you see my text to you by the chance real quick Why would

I look at your text? Did you send me a text? Yeah, I just sent you a text. I guess i've got about i'm

I'm, sorry, but i'm just not feeling good. Did you see the side text? Uh, there was side text.

Let's see what the side text says. Amen. Yeah private chat Was that the part where you said amen that's what

I should Go up three Three, I mean you I don't know why you said you you asked justin peters and I whether you see it

I mean just I don't know even here. What what's the problem? I always talk to justin, you know that Okay, uh, so you you want to you want to bow out but you wanted you wanted to know if I was gonna

I I didn't include the clip of you calling him smug Well, it's the truth i'm so sorry but guys

I generally don't try to do stuff like that but that that was the epitome of pride in that so So, all right, you gotta bow out.

Let me deal with this real quick 20 questions I'm gonna try and deal with this real quick. I'll listen to an hour and 45 minutes more.

All right So here we go real quick. Uh My my first question am I a brother in christ and he basically said no

Okay Let's deal with this next one because this is important Uh is baptism necessary for salvation now, this is really the one

I want to focus in on Okay, let's take a look at each of these passages. John 3 3 to 5

Okay This is dealing with nicodemus. It says jesus answered and said to him truly truly

I say to you unless one is born again He cannot see the kingdom of god nicodemus said to him how can a man be born again when he is old

He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb And be born can he jesus said truly truly

I say to you unless one is born of water and spirit He cannot enter the kingdom of god context norm context what did nicodemus say his mother's womb

What's the water? The water is not baptism norm. The water is the mother's womb

There you go. The so so here his first argument that baptism is necessary Jesus is saying you have to be born physically and born of the spirit

Physically is born of the mother's womb water so this first one

Doesn't claim what he says it claims Okay, well matthew 28

Uh 18 and 19. Well that surely says well, let's see Matthew 28 9 18 to 20 and jesus came up and spoke to them saying

All authority has been given to me on heaven and on earth go therefore and make disciples of all nations

Baptizing them in the name of the father and of the son of the holy spirit teaching them to observe all things

That uh, I commanded you and lo I am with you always to the end of the age

Hmm. So the question is is baptism necessary to salvation? He's talking about disciples

Disciples, huh disciples people who already believe And he says to baptize them

Oops, sorry norm. This actually argues for our case that people believe and then are baptized

This is someone who already has faith Acts 2 38

Maybe this is going to be the one form Peter said unto them Repent and each of you be baptized in the name of jesus christ for the forgiveness of sins

So that you receive the gift of the holy spirit Now is this saying that you repent and be baptized to be saved

No, it doesn't say that It actually has two commandments repent and be baptized. Those are two separate commands

And he's commanding that of them Is that saying in in the text of of acts 2 38?

Is peter saying you have to be baptized to be saved? No, actually, he's not saying anything like that Not not at all

Okay. Well All right, well three down, uh, it must be acts 22, that's the killer one.

All right acts 22 16 Let's read that now. Why do you delay? Get up and be baptized and wash away your sins

Calling him on his name hmm Interesting. So this is ananias and and you know, he he's he's sitting there and uh,

You know devout man, and he believes Huh interesting He said brother.

Saul you know is saying to to to that he believes that anis, you know ends up talking to him and then he says

Why do you delay get up and be baptized? Now is he saying that the baptism saves? No, he's saying that baptism and and Wash away your sin.

Does the baptism actually wash away the sin norm said? No, it doesn't But that's what this is saying so he wants to say baptism saves

Because it washes away the sin, but yet it doesn't wash away the sin That's the problem norm has with this verse

What is baptism picture baptism is is in the same sense as the old testament sacrifices pictures the the atonement there?

the washing away of the sin there Is that Actually doing it.

No that foretold it looked forward to what the messiah would do and therefore

There you go. You don't have The sacrifice is actually removing sin the the actual

Payment for sin was looking forward to what messiah would do Just as messiah as as baptism looks past to what messiah did in washing away the sin

It's in that this verse doesn't say you have to be baptized to be saved. So All right.

Well, all right Maybe it's going to be acts chapter 8 acts chapter 8 38 35 to 39.

That's the one that's going to be the killer All right Then philip opened his mouth and began from the scriptures and he preached jesus to him

And as they went along the road, they came to some water And the eunuch said look water

What prevents me from being baptized? This next verse is not in the original but it's in later manuscripts and philip said if you believe in all your heart you may

And he answered and said I believe that jesus christ is the son of god And he ordered the chariot to stop and they both went down into the water philip as well

As the eunuch and baptized him When they came up from the water the spirit of the lord

Snatched philip away and the eunuch saw him no longer But he went on his way rejoicing

Where in there does it say you have to be baptized to be saved? In fact what it says is it seems to imply he already believed

And then went and got baptized But the baptism was obedience to something that already happened

If you're going to argue for verse 37 That isn't in the original manuscripts um well, then you got a problem even there because Philip is saying if you already believe in other words if you're already saved

Then get baptized, huh? Sorry norm, that's our point of view not your point of view scriptures

Seems to be agreeing with us josiah yeah, by the way, these are all classic church of christ passages and i've

I had to deal with all those whenever I was at whenever I was a you know, whenever I was in St louis christian college that was teaching this stuff

And you just like what andrew's pointing out you look at the context. That's not what they're saying

Correct, especially the john 3 passage And and and what are we doing we're just dealing with the text

Uh, jason cave says thank you andrew for your diligence in searching and verifying the scripture scriptural truth in god's word

Um, that's what we're trying to do here. Unlike norm. We actually submit to scripture I have openly admitted to areas where i've changed my belief

Such as the belief that god provides belief itself Because that's what scripture says philippians 1 29.

I argued against that until I came to philippians 129 I submit to scripture

Um norm is not I mean every one of these passages are not claiming what he claims they claim well romans 6 3 and 4

Hmm, this must be the killer verse. Let's check it out. Or do you not know?

That all of us have been baptized into christ jesus Having been baptized into his death

Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism in his death so that As christ was raised from the dead

Through the glory of the father So we also might walk in the newness of life

Okay, were we actually buried? Huh? Well if it was a literal baptism, then it has to be a literal burial

Hmm doesn't seem to fit I would argue this very simply This is baptism into christ

Not water baptism But baptism of the holy spirit Okay.

Now the baptism immersion does picture us being dead buried and rose from the dead

But there's nothing in here that says you must be baptized to be saved So Again, we don't have a verse that points to this.

Well, okay. It must be the galatians Let's see galatians 3 that's the one galatians 3 26 and 27

For you are all sons of god through faith in jesus christ for you all who were baptized

Into christ have been clothed with yourselves with christ Is that water baptism

Or baptism of the holy spirit now Here's the thing norm is saying that in this in these passages all baptism is only water baptism

I want you to note that because later he's gonna talk about baptismal holy spirit

Remember the word baptismo was transliterated because the anglican church didn't practice immersion

It just means to dip or to plunge That's what the word means So this should be say for all of those who are plunged into christ

How are we plunged into christ by the holy spirit? There's nothing about water baptism here

It it isn't there. He's with his preconceived ideas reading that in ephesians 5 is his next one

Ephesians 5 25 to 26 husbands Love your wives just as christ also loved the church and gave himself up for her so that he might sanctify her

Having cleansed her By the washing of water with the word

Okay He's going to argue that the washing of water is baptism That's what he's claiming.

What what does the text say? washing of water with what Baptism No, the word the word.

Do you get do you immerse yourself in the word in water baptism? No, no, no, no, you immerse yourself in water

So, how are you immersing yourself in the word, uh, oops, he's got a problem

So so this is an illustration of son again doesn't show what he claims it says

Well must be titus 3 5 I have to admit josiah I am blown away that he used this verse

Because this is a verse that actually condemns his belief system. But okay of titus 3 5

Remember baptism is a work He saved us not

On the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness. Remember that's what he claims baptism is a deed of righteousness

He saved us not based on the deeds of that we have done in righteousness, but according to his mercy by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of by the holy spirit

I could be wrong. But if there's baptism anywhere in here, it's baptism of the holy spirit.

That seems to be what's mentioned Well again, this will show up in the next question, but he doesn't see a difference between sanctification and justification

And and that's the problem he has that's that and that's that's an evidence of a cult and we'll get to that But this passage right here condemns

What he believes That works save you It speaks exactly against it now.

He brought up colossians 2 12 I'm amazed that he would bring it up after our three -hour discussion

Because he doesn't want to look at the context. So i'm going to back up so that we have context and start at verse 9

But the key is going to be 13 and 14 because that's going to tell us when Our sins were paid for for in him

All of the fullness of the deity dwells bottle in bodily form and in him

You who have been made complete and in him is the head over All rule and authority and in him

You were circumcised with circumcision made without hands in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of christ

Let me just get some water. Sorry verse 12

Having been buried with him in baptism in which you were raised up with him through faith

In the working of god who raised him from the dead now, let me stop there and just say what do you see?

The baptism here that's mentioned is corresponding with the circumcision go back to what we read in romans 4

Just saying That that clearly says circumcision doesn't save you Okay Abraham was saved prior to his circumcision.

Therefore baptism can't save you What does it say in 13 and 14? New point here

And I pointed this out to norm that the baptism Is a supporting point an illustration to the circumcision, which is a supporting point to the rule and authority verse 13 is a new thought when you were dead in your trespasses and The uncircumcised in your flesh

He made you alive together with him Having forgiven us of all our transgressions

Now norm tries to say those transgressions are of the law. Where's that in here? That's not the law.

Moses. It says all of our transgressions. I'm just reading it I'm not reading into it like he does the law of moses.

That's not there He sees it in circumcision. Well, that's a different thought He's reading it out of context

Having forgiven us of all our transgressions transgressions having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of the decrees against us, which

Was hostile to us and he has taken it out of the way having nailed it to the cross

I'm, sorry, but this says All of our transgressions were paid at the cross not in our baptism.

So baptism can't possibly be saving us here Well the passage we looked at earlier in the show first peter chapter 3 verse 21

Corresponding to baptism now now saves you not the removal of dirt from the flesh

But an appeal to god for a good conscience through the resurrection of jesus christ

So what is it he's saying? here saves us the baptism

No, no, he says not The not the baptism actually he's saying

Corresponding to the baptism now saves you not the removing of the flesh. So this isn't the water

But the appeal to god It's the appeal to god that saves you for a good conscience

So so this is the baptism of holy spirit

Clearly not the water baptism because he says not the removal of dirt not the water

But the good conscience So every passage that norm claims says that baptism is necessary for salvation shows that Our view and not his own he's reading into every one of those texts a water baptism that doesn't exist

So let me rip through the rest of these really quick. I want to take the time on those Here's the main court number three.

This is something every cult gets wrong What is the difference between justification and sanctification he claims washed i .e

made clean sanctified separate from the From the world to god justified made innocent now notice.

He doesn't really I asked him for specific answers He doesn't really get into specifics, but he says they're all synonymous terms for salvation wrong norm

That's the problem This is why he thinks works save us Because he doesn't see that we're regenerated justified and then we have a process of sanctification that goes until the day we die

And we work out our salvation that's sanctification That occurs until the day we die and we're glorified

And so what we end up seeing here is norm has the exact thing that every cult has wrong

They see justification and sanctification as the same thing. They're synonymous.

He says it that's what every cult does so that they can justify a works -based salvation and every

Works -based salvation is a man -made system Okay, so oh go ahead josiah well yeah, the uh

The church of christ they're I know he likes to say they're they're a uh, they're not a denomination but they're well

That you you answered that well on the show you said it's a movement and we're going to point out on the next one

Yeah, it's denominational. We're saying it's a movement Yeah, but it this this this movement or cult or whatever whatever you want to call it.

Um it I always make the distinction between justification We're saved by by grace through faith and then i'd say

Baptism is a necessary part of sanctification Mm -hmm. I agree and I I always always tell people that and I I I think a lot of people if they're open to it in the church of christ, they can be swayed towards the truth that we're

That that we're saved by grace through faith and then baptism's a necessary part of sanctification it's but even though the two

Even though you can't have you know When you're justified you are sanctified

I mean, they are distinct. They're not the same thing We're not saved by our obedience or saved by the blood of christ through faith

So the next question I asked him is must I be a member of the church of christ to be saved now I want you to read what he says here because he's talking all about denomination

But church of christ is a movement and church of christ is a designation they have for their own churches

And so there is this idea of what they call a church of christ And so he doesn't answer the question

He gives a whole bunch of four different points that do not answer the question all because he says there's no salvation denominationalism

That wasn't my point My point is do I can I only be saved if i'm baptized in a church of christ movement church

And notice he doesn't answer that he gets into this whole thing of catholicism And protestantism, which he says, you know, the true church wasn't there

Well, guess what that what he argued there is the argument I made when I had him on the show That faith by salvation by faith alone was always believed

By the true church the church has always existed It's always been there teaching that even though the catholic church had a denomination

So he would say that I guess that the church didn't exist for all these years Because the church didn't teach baptismal regeneration until campbell

So Problem number five. Is there no if there is no church of christ doctrine

Where do you where all do all the church of christ churches get their doctrine he says the true new testament church

Is the is the new testament church? Now here's the thing He doesn't want to he doesn't like the idea that I we that john said he's a cult

I had five points that john pointed out of a cult. It's in my book. What do they believe?

What defines a cult? Well one an authority? Authority that they alone can interpret scripture now

Norm preacher norm is that authority in his church? He doesn't follow the scriptures because he's the one that interprets scripture.

So he's the authoritarian Scripture twisting. Well, we've already seen norm is twisting a ton of scriptures to get his belief system.

So he holds to that Exclusivism they alone are the true church

Just read what norm says right here the true church He's claiming he's the true church.

Everyone else isn't the true church unless you hold to the beliefs that he holds to So even though each of the church of christ churches are separate they all hold to the doctrine that they alone are the only true church

That's the exclusivism exclusive isolationism Well, I do they believe in isolation now

This is not the case where you see with other cults where they pull people out Okay from and and they only associate with People that are of the same group and they move them

You don't have that but you do have the isolationism where they believe they're the only ones with the truth

So to be outside of that group You're isolated you are in that group and you're with that group because they're the only ones with the truth

That's used to control people. There's the isolationism Now the fifth point that I make is is harm

And I got news for you if you believe that in baptismal regeneration you are in harm

Why? Spiritual harm you are going to hell because you believe in a false doctrine How do they hold how does this though hold a harm?

Well, you see it as every other cult Because to leave the group means that they claim you're leaving salvation

That's the harm that's the control we already saw one of the things I say with cults they they have a every one of them they have a

When it comes to language Okay, they lack integrity with language

Norm exposed that throughout he has to play games with words He does that.

He claims we're doing that And yet we exposed he's the one saying you guys are saying things

I didn't say that he actually said You guys are are using words different ways when he's actually doing that.

Okay, so the reality is by the definition I don't I can't say for all of the church of christ, but I can say for norm's church

He's a cult Okay by the definition because right here. He says the true church

Well, the reality is what he says here What he's arguing for is that the true church the the church looks to scripture now he's saying that just the church of christ, but yet The church there's throughout history and we pointed this out

Huss wickliffe many others who believed in faith alone throughout history

Even though the catholic church disagreed with it That was taught baptismal regeneration that was not taught

Um number six Do you have anything you want to add to that jose? well, uh word

I would say church a lot most church of christ you get the same thing with that you see with norm that i'm sure i've got several pastors and Uh, they most of them are are cult um, and they have a history of being a cult, uh, not just Exclusive exclusivism on baptism, but exclusivism on having instruments in the church and having

Uh paid ministers and also sending their ministers to seminary Yes, it's amazing.

They all seem to have the same belief system, right the same doctrine and and yet You know, he's arguing that they don't have that doctrine.

It's from scripture Do you see anything in scripture? It says not to send people to seminary I haven't found that.

Yeah Yeah, so I mean they all have this but but they say they have no doctrine no, well, where did you get this from campbell?

um The very guy he wants to disavow, right? number six if the answer above is scripture because I expected that You know who's going to say where's his doctrine is going to be scripture

Then where do the coc church of christ get their hermeneutic from? Now he he gives a list of of people here very solid people some of them very solid

Okay, when it comes to hermeneutics, um, you know grant osborne very technical book the hermeneutic spiral gordon fee

Great work. Michael. Heisner excellent stuff. He's put out all that great stuff. But you know what we ended up exposing

He doesn't believe this he doesn't follow what these guys teach he breaks the very principle of Context So number seven, what does coc?

church of christ mean What does it mean to be a church of christ?

And so this one he says if you're asking what the what is the new testament church?

And he gets into all things. That's not what i'm asking I'm asking what what does it mean that you're you know this movement?

So so number eight is is the coc a denomination which I know he's going to say it's not and yet all of the church of christ churches

Have a similar doctrine and have everything that would define themselves as a denomination other than a hierarchy

And so, okay, we'll we'll go with it. Josiah. You had called it a movement Okay, even though it has all the the the appearances of a denomination

He says there was no denomination in existence. Now you pointed out josiah Uh when you had him on I was waiting you and I had a discussion uh before the show when he was on with me and I I kind of said he's going to bring up denominationalism and I would

Be able to say i'm non -denominational. I'm not i've never been part of a denomination. Okay once I was part of a of a church.

That was a member of the uh, the g gbc Uh, was it great greater baptist?

Convention, I forget what it even is But they were loosely affiliated. I've always been of more of an independent baptist

Never really part of a denomination. I don't believe in in denominations so um

You know, but what does he end up doing? He ends up pointing out the catholic catholic uh greek orthodox and protestant denominations

Oh, so there weren't any others then they all are protestant. He doesn't understand the history of baptists no, he

His problem is is that he's part of the again It's the restorationist movement or what we like to what we tend to call campbellite because that's where their theology comes from um, they believe that there was no

And again, it's the same thing with mormons They all came out of this restorationist movement idea that the church became corrupted and you had to go all the way back to the apostles to find the true church and if you start acting like them and interpreting it like them, then you have restarted the church of christ or Disciples or whatever you want to call it?

And and that's the whole thing. He doesn't even understand that baptists Were not protestant They were separatists

Right, he doesn't even understand that so so I asked the question does baptism count if not done in coc

Now here's the whole thing. He says baptism scriptural when it follows the pattern He gives a whole bunch of passages.

He never noticed. He never actually answered the question He says number three his point is so technically no one is baptized into christ and in the church of christ

They aren't in the church of christ until they're baptized They aren't in the church of christ until they're saved and added to the lord

The question is he he said and we played it in his own words that baptism is what enters you into the church

My question is Can I can I be baptized? By any other church other than a church of christ

Josiah does your baptism count? He says no No Because you didn't trust that it would save you

And my question was does it have to be of their movement? Well it

In order for their for them me to be baptized like that. Yeah, because no other movement teaches that correct, and that's the point and this again there you have the the

Exclusivity that you can only be saved through their church Because their church is the one that teaches that baptism saves you so I asked him if is baptism work now, this is interesting

Because you go back to that three -hour episode that I had with him and he admitted that yes baptism is a work

But here he wants to deny that why because we had this whole discussion and he knows scripture is clear that works don't save So he wants to play a game

He says so I said is baptism work He says baptism is an expression of faith in the working of god

Now he says that and he said that over and over again And yet he also says it is the thing that regenerates you.

It's the thing that saves you. It's the water water was the element It's necessary Well, then it's not a working of an expression of your faith

We would say it's an expression of our faith because we get saved and then baptized as an expression of faith

He was very clear that you don't agree with him on that You're not saved because you hold to that position your baptism.

Josiah. He said doesn't count because you expressed exactly this So, how does he say that and he says is belief a work is confessional work is repentance work

Well, let's look at that philippians 1 29 says belief is granted to you by god So it's not a work of yours if it's a work, it's not a work of yours.

It's a work of christ Confession is is the response to that work Repentance again is that's given to us by god

So so these are not things that we get it's given by god baptism is something you do

So therefore, uh, i'm going to go to what he said. It is a work Now this next one's an interesting one

I asked him because he made the claim that calvin was a lutheran Which was really interesting He gave me a a link here and I followed that link and checked it out

Because I know he he's very proud of his his lagos library. Um, and and you know, he's got a lot there just saying um

Uh, you know He wants to say he's got a pretty good sized lagos library. Josiah.

Do you know how many books you have in your lagos library? offhand 1008 1008

I I remember a pastor who came up to me and he was bragging about his lagos library being so big

Uh, and a fellow pastor had had had a lot of fun with this. Um, he said he had 5 000 books

In his lagos library to you. That seems like a lot doesn't it? Josiah? Uh, it's more than I can afford.

Yeah um, and and so my friend turned to to me and said He looked at at this other pastor and says you call that in a library

Andrew, what's a library? obviously a play on uh That's not a knife

Yeah, this is a knife from crocodile dundee And I had explained to him how many books

I had in my library at the time, which was 50 000 Currently I have about I have 57 000 books that are

That are shown I hide a bunch of my latin works and things like that So I have close to 60 000 books in lagos.

So It's been a long time of work and see you're a young man josiah

And so that's the difference is i've been working on mine. You have to remember I have lagos from when it was on floppy disks

I'm jewish So back then you used to be able to do what I did. I had I had

I had one salesman for 20 years And I used to say okay,

I want oh I used to put together a bundle and I said I want all this and i'm gonna I'm willing to pay this and he'd go in his boss's office and be like, okay

We got this sale if we do all this together, we can do it for this I used to get deals that you can't get anymore because I used to bundle things together and just say, okay

I'll drop a one big lump sum of money if you do like all these books So I used to get deals that no one else could get

God And so because of that I have a huge library, but i've been working on it since what?

94 Okay, so, you know Some of you aren't even alive in that I was three

You were three So, uh, so so basically, you know here the the the link that he he shows ends up showing that it claims that Calvin came into the the the doctrines of salvation by faith alone from luther

And he was called a calvinist It doesn't say that Calvin was a lutheran

He he was claimed to be a lutheran by others Because back then the catholic it was the catholic church or lutherans.

That's all they saw Calvin's doctrine does not follow with lutheranism and therefore he was he was not a lutheran

He he liked luther He liked luther. He got some things from luther, but he wasn't a lutheran even if others called him a lutheran doesn't make him a lutheran, so Uh, I asked the art number 12 our works necessary for regeneration.

He says obedience to faith Obeying the gospel is necessary to salvation c number 10

What was number 10? Well, we go back up is baptism a work? Huh interesting because he said baptism was a work on the show several times

So the reason I ask that is because if works are necessary for regeneration You have a different gospel galatians the whole book.

That's the point of it. I asked him to define the term faith Now I will give kudos to him because what a lot of people do is when they go to define something from the greek or The hebrew what they give is strong's numbering

I just got to tell you folks when I see strong's numbering. I reject it I mean anyone that gives me oh, this is what strong says

It shows me that they really haven't done the diligence in the greek works to to know what the words actually mean

Strong's is is giving a generality He's not really get digging deep into this

So I want to give norm kudos to say he does dig into this into looking at at different greek

Works a greek english lexicon that actually would would be more skilled and and more detailed and so he does that But I want you to notice he never actually defines for us

What i'm asking He doesn't define faith. He gives the the greek word

I ask what does the term save means he gives the meaning of the greek word But he doesn't actually define it for us.

So that was not helpful Now I asked him Number 15.

How do people speak in a language and be baptized in the holy spirit prior to water baptism?

This was acts 10 44 and 48 And the reason I brought this up is because this one is key

When we look at this because this one um when you look at it, uh, you end up seeing here that you have peter and he's he's

Bringing a message people are actually showing that they have the gentiles who have the holy spirit prior to water baptism

Now he's going to end up having to claim that baptism of the spirit is given after Well baptism of the spirit is regeneration go read

Genesis, uh, sorry, uh, jeremiah 31 31 and following ezekiel 36 25 and following that is the new covenant

That's what saves us He ends up saying they receive the baptism of the holy spirit just as the apostle said

Here is the first time that he acknowledges a baptism of the holy spirit Why is that important because throughout when we were discussing with him every time he sees baptism, he says that's only water baptism

But here he acknowledges. There's a baptism of the spirit separate from water baptism

Now this is important because he says we're the ones that have the fallacy of equivocation

We're the ones that play games with words But he's the one that takes baptism and only uses it one way when he needs it

But here he uses it a different way where in the passages he uses it's baptism the spirit.

There's no water mentioned He wants to say that's only water baptism Because the word is transliterated not translated

Okay, so surprised he answered it that way I was amazed that he answered it that way.

That's not the answer. I got when I was at st. Louis christian college Yeah they they would equate it to uh

Like the holy spirit coming upon saul to make him prophesy because they

Because he wasn't saved but the holy spirit made him do that And so that's what they were saying was happening with the gentiles they're just say did it to give them to get them saved

Well, and this is why folks This is why when you see me do these discussions you see me ask things that they're not ready to handle

This is one that's out of the the norm for the way people argue You want to learn to do that because this is something he wasn't ready for Right as josiah said all these other answers they're canned answers their answers that they're they're programmed to give they're taught how to answer

He wasn't ready for this. So he had to try to give an honest answer But the honest answer exposed the problem that he had that he ends up having so I asked him can can someone lose their salvation?

He says yes, and he gives a bunch of verses hmm This is this is really a dilemma

And i'll tell you why I looked at all the verses I don't want to take the time to look at this here but uh, none of these actually deal with losing their salvation

There is a passage that deals very clearly with this and and here's the thing If he's going to argue each of these are dealing with someone that was saved and lost their salvation

Scripture can't contradict scripture. John 2 1st john 2 19 is the clearest text dealing with this.

It says they went out from us But they were not really of us for they

For if they had been of us, they would have remained with us But they went out so that it would be shown they were not of us

If someone claims his whole argument of apostasy If someone goes out from us, it is exposing.

They were a hypocrite that stopped pretending They were never a christian

So each one of these passages if he wants to try to claim this is someone who loses their salvation All that it says is they were someone who was pretending that stopped pretending

They were never of us. That's what first john says you you interpret the clear text

There are the difficult text from the clear first john 2 19 is Explicitly clear you use that to interpret these others and you realize they weren't

Believers who who walked away they were unbelievers that were pretending And stopped pretending they walked away to expose they were never of us

So I asked him how does someone become saved and his answer was just obeying the gospel? Interesting.

I want you to notice that how does someone become saved? What does he say?

Obey the gospel Now, what does he must what must the gospel be?

Hmm the gospel must be because he has made it really clear. There's five things you have to do hear the word of god believe

What the word of god repent of your sins confess your sins be baptized. He doesn't say any of those

He just says obey the gospel Well, that's really interesting because the gospel is you know, and and I want you to notice he lists all these verses

You don't have if you look at each of those verses that he lists there They do not name all five of those that he claims

And that's the thing Nowhere, does he have all five claimed now? I asked if he believed the trinity.

He just said yes I asked um if if If we must obey god as a christian, then do you sin?

He said yes, which was good when you guys dealt with that whether he's a sinless perfectionist So that was fine. And I said, where do you get your authority to claim?

You're right. He says I don't claim i'm right This again. I want you to point out. I want you to see this is something all cults do

They claim they don't have their authority comes directly from god. Therefore if you disagree with them you're disagreeing with god notice that I would say

I where do I get my authority? I get my authority from scripture. Could I be wrong?

Sure He can't be wrong because he's saying he gets it from scripture and he's absolutely right

I claim I claim the the bible authority For what I believe and teach so the bible is his authority.

I would say yes, the bible is my authority, but I might misinterpret it I'm, it's possible me as a human being can do that.

He doesn't claim that with him That's the authoritarianism that you see in a cult

And so what do you end up seeing he claims he's the authority he gets it from scripture this is this is no different than people that say well if I got

I got a vision from god or I got a word from god When they claim that what are they doing? They're saying if you disagree with them you're disagreeing with god

They're claiming an authority that they actually don't have Okay. Yes scriptures are authority as long as we're interpreting it.

He ignores the interpreting He's he's assuming that his interpretation is absolutely true

No man can claim that He he doesn't have any preconceived ideas. He's the perfect guy

That's right. That sounds exactly Preconceived ideas and you and I have to check our preconceived ideas at the door, but he doesn't have any

And he claims that we're the dishonest ones uh Wow So I know folks this was this was a long episode almost four hours

I wanted to go through this Because the question is does baptism save no

It's really clear. We went through romans 4. It doesn't save you It can't save you it's a work you do

It is baptism Is is something that points to what christ already did?

It is no different than the sacrifices that we have in the old testament the sacrifices they

Saved quote -unquote saved a person or gave atonement for a person looking forward to what the messiah would do

And our baptism saves us in the way that it looks back to what christ did because colossians 2 13 and 14 are clear that all of our transgressions are paid at the cross and so I hope that's that's we went through all this in detail and I I guess

I I wanted to spend a little bit more time and take the more time because of one simple reason I know that he's claiming he's going to do some shows to expose how we're dishonest

So I wanted to take the time to make sure that we deal with this In detail in context expose his dishonesty expose his tactics what the games he plays

So when he goes and says that we're dishonest and we're playing games and we're doing this you guys see the context

We're not afraid of context That's all right That's right.

All right. So let me end with this a little fun. Uh, we're in anthony time. So let's talk about anthony

Anthony's not here, but he should have been here. Uh while we're here while we're just here. I got a text from anthony silvestro jr

And uh, it's interesting because this text seems to indicate that anthony silvestro jr beat me in a competition

Now we're gonna have to get anthony silvestro jr to come in and and answer the question Uh, whether it's anthony silvestro jr or anthony silvestro the third

But I I just you know, you have an apple watch. I have one right here

And uh, you can you can have competitions fitness competitions And so I I just i'm just going to say publicly anthony silvestro jr

I will say this actually is anthony silvestro the third Because he's the one that challenges me.

He's the one with the watch But he's challenged me and claims victory for beating me in a contest a competition of our fitness

All right, well, let's let's just look at this and examine this for a quick second now first off he did he did start to challenge

While I was in florida dealing with my mother having to travel so there were a couple days I couldn't get out and do my runs now.

I I run Um, let me just check my runs. Let's see. Um Wednesday I did a 12 mile run

That was about an hour and 45 minutes Uh, tuesday, I did a 5 .26

mile run. That was a short one had a lot of meetings Monday, I did an 11 .24 mile run

Uh saturday, I did an 8 .33 mile run friday. I did a 7 .1

0 .01 mile run So that's I guess that's when the competition started but prior to that, uh on on the 10th

I did a nine mile run On uh the ninth I did a 6 .8 mile run.

So so essentially I've when we look at this my my runs are Counting more my actually goals and the way this works is based on your goals

My goal is to do a 45 minutes of exercise. They have three things your stand how much time you stand?

I my stand time is is 12 hours a day. I gotta at least stand 12 of the hours uh my my

Um exercise goal is is uh 30. I think it's actually 30 minutes or 35 minutes um

And my move goal is to burn Uh, I think 750 calories

So so i'm getting to my goals most days Of course, when I went on those days that like on sunday where I didn't do a run

I didn't get the goals Now i'm going to let you guys you guys be the judge

I want you guys to be the judge uh, mr. Anthony silvestro, jr

Kind of really the third His move goal is 10 calories

Um, josiah, what would it take you to burn 10 calories a day? Um, I Basically do my dumb dumbbells for like twice

Yeah Get up out of bed and walk to go have breakfast is 10 calories his exercise is five minutes and his stand is six hours um, so when you look at this and you say well, they do this goal and if you meet your goals, well

All he had to do is get out of bed and he meets his goals Okay, so so he's he's claiming uh some some uh, he he's claiming a victory here

Uh that he texted me. Um, and i'm going well, what where's the victory? you know, um his his his total steps

Okay, for example was was 10 000 steps in the distance of not even five miles not even folks

I do five miles for a short run That's when I have a ton of meetings and can't get it in As I gave you guys my average run is is nine miles or more

Okay, I run between 8 and 12 miles a day So so I will let you guys be the judge who do you think really wins the competition the guy who does

Five minutes of exercise and burns 10 calories or the guy who can do two hours of of exercise

And and run 10 miles I will let you be the judge.

Maybe we will get Dr. Anthony sevestre to come in And give us the answer who he thinks should really win the competition but we may have

Huh something else you should probably consider anthony the third is 14

Well, this is true so he should have a lot more energy and be able to do a lot more than this old 50 soon to be 54 year old just saying

Uh, and I I think i've said to him. He's gotta if he wants to really beat me in a competition He's got to run the miles.

I run every day then I would say he he could beat me until then

I would say Not so young man You got a long run to go before you catch up to me, sir

But maybe maybe dr. Anthony sevestre will be in here next week and he can answer that question

But uh, I I will announce that i'm probably going to be taking a a break from apologetics live pastor

Justin is going to be uh filling in uh, probably get josiah pastor. Josiah and Justin peters and dr.

Anthony sevestre to come in for a while. I need a a break just for my health Uh, I will covet your prayers.

I do appreciate those of you who would be praying for me um I just Trying to get my blood pressure and things under control and i've just been i've been going non -stop

I I've been working all the time I do not unfortunately take enough breaks and rest that I need

And so i'm really trying to get this under control before I have other health issues And so, uh, my bride has asked if I would take a break

And i'm planning on doing that so I may not be on for the next several episodes I probably plan to come back somewhere in april and so Uh, i'm just I need a a break.

So I appreciate while i'm gone if you guys would be praying for me That would be a big help

And so, uh, we'll be back next week. I believe next week

Uh, we're going to deal with An issue that we had on I was supposed to start to show with this

I didn't but i'll end with this and those guys could pick it up We had michael salman on talking about charismatic gifts last week

It we were discovered after we had him on he doesn't even believe in the trinity and so The fact is is we're going to go through or professor justin's going to go through some things he found some things he said online

That expose that and they're going to have some discussion on the trinity So that will be a very helpful

Show for you. So I encourage you to check that out. Listen to that And so until next week,