Does Baptism Save?

The Cross, Baptism, and the Charge of Salvation by Works

Even if God what Jesus did on the cross wasn't sufficient, right? I mean could God save you with what he did at the cross without your baptism? Let me ask you that. Could he well Speculate on what God could have done.

Okay, did he. Did he say no. Okay, so ultimately you're not saved without your work. Uh.

Yeah, I would agree with that but I would say it differently I you can't be saved without faithful obedience to the gospel that's sanctification.

That that comes after that sanctification. Yeah, when you're saying you're sanctified. So you're so ultimately fine. So ultimately norm you're you're trusting in your salvation for what you did, correct?

Ultimately, like God did what he did at the cross. Did you say that backwards or I'm trusting what I did for my salvation.

In a different way, so so I'm saying in a different way so what if Christ's death on the cross.

Was was not sufficient. He requires your ever said that and I wouldn't say that and it's you know, extremely.

Offensive to attribute that to me. Okay, so you're saying that that you that Christ's death was sufficient.

Right, so it's all that we need. Only sufficient but the only thing that could be done from. Okay.

So we don't need baptism then because it's the only thing. Is it is it the only thing or is it not? Do you need to be baptized or not? Because if you need to be baptized, it's not sufficient.

It is true that you are an extremely skilled debater and you're good.

Apologetics Live, the Show Format, and the Plan for the Night

Welcome to apologetics live. We're here to answer your questions and challenges about God and the Bible. Meet your hosts from striving for Fraternity ministries Andrew Rappaport, dr. Anthony Silvestro and pastor Justin Pierce.

We are live. Apologetics live here to answer your biblical challenges questions anything you have about God and the Bible. This is a ministry of striving for eternity. And we are here every Thursday night 8 to 10 New York Time Eastern Standard Time.

To answer any questions you have you can just go to apologetics live. Calm click on the link to participate and ask anything. Because I believe I can answer any question that you have about God and the Bible.

You Say well Andrew that sounds pretty arrogant of you. No, because I think I don't know is a perfectly good answer. And if you ask me a really tough question, I may say I don't know and I think that's a perfectly good answer.

Let me bring in my co-host here. You still the better. Again. That's your skilled debate. I'm a skilled debater. Yeah, I mean, that's what he said here. Let's let's listen and hold on.

So it's all that we need. Only sufficient, but the only thing that couldn't be done for okay.

So we don't need baptism then because it's the only thing. Notice that pause. Is it is it the only thing or is it not? Do you need to be baptized or not? It's one answer need to be baptized. It's not sufficient.

Is True that you are an extremely skilled debater and you're good. I'm very good and a skilled debater.

Because I can't answer the question. So I'm gonna give you a straw man and an ad hominem today.

Yes. Yes, we are gonna deal with norm and some of his antics from two weeks ago. I wasn't around able to answer when you and Josiah did an Outstanding job with norm and norms not coming in today. But I will explain why.

I'll explain why I'll explain why but before I do before I do I got some things to cover just in in. You know just some things we want to wrap up and deal with it first. So this is a ministry of striving fraternity.

Apologetics live is something that we do every week. We encourage you guys is it to share this especially the podcast we will put this out later today. As soon as we record we're done. I do a lot of work to get this out in podcast form.

So just go and follow the podcast Apologetics live and that way you get if you follow it every episode every week that we do this. And so you don't want to miss a single episode. So I encourage you guys to do just that now we are a ministry of striving for eternity and also We are on the Christian podcast community.

If you go to Christian podcast me org, you're gonna find. Oh, I don't know about 40 some podcasts. Um, I actually hold on I'm gonna check this because I wanted to give this number just this week just so far this week.

All right 36 episodes have dropped already of Outstanding podcasts that you can listen to every podcast on the Christian podcast me is vetted. They are it is not easy to join us. I'll just tell you that even people who are friends of mine have said man you guys make this hard.

Yes, we do because we want to have good Solid podcasts on the Christian podcast community. And so that is something that we do. You know, I got I got something new. Justin this week, what's that? Um, I don't know if you can see this these are my my jabber Earbuds.

Can you see that? I got you. Yeah, so so here's the thing now, you know that I'm a runner I run about a half marathon a day. So it's about 12 13 miles that I run a day and I know you haven't done that in a while I understand.

I understand. I'm not judging you too much.

But I have a problem. Surgery tends to do that.

I have a problem with like so so here are my Apple, you know AirPods. I have tried these. They claim this will be good for anybody. It'll work for everybody with their earbuds. No. No, they fall out of my ears these jabber earbuds stick in my ears now their noise cancelating which.

Here's here's the thing that really surprised me. I have had tons of. Well, okay, just not really literally tons, but a lot of earbuds that I've tried but these Elite seven and these are the jabber elite seven pros.

I Have tried these. I did a hour and a half two hour run with them in my ears in two hours. They never fell out that right there I'm impressed with because I have found a single earbud that worked that way.

I actually would use these. Noise these right here if you can see these these are bone condensing headphones, but they're annoying to wear and so These jabber ones have really worked now. I Did a test because I had I got them at discount for for them to you know to give an honest review.

And so I reviewed them and My conclusion was this a they're horrible for phone calls. Don't use them for phone calls, but for running. Man, are they I was I did a you know to test them out. I did two hours on a treadmill.

So you have that treadmill noise put the noise cancelating on turned on the the the the podcast. Listened without a problem. I didn't hear the treadmill at all could hear the podcast. Well Further tested it by jumping into a hot tub while the the Jets are running.

No problem their noise canceling was really well, so I have a trip coming up to LA and I'm gonna try these on the flight to see how well they work for noise canceling on a flight. That'll be the real test.

But I think I found finally a pair of earbuds that I can use while running. Because man, I've I've never found a pair that I could use because they all fall out. So I either have to use these big over the ear headphones.

Which on a treadmill or I have to try to find something else and so I think I just found my running earbuds. So these these are the these are Jabra's Elite seven earbud pros that's that's which ones these are and so in case anyone wants to go check them out.

And and maybe get a pair. That's which ones I have. All right. So with that you guys did a show two weeks ago. Yeah, and you had norm on norm is a guy that is. Hmm. Well, he claims to be a minister of in the Church of Christ, which is not a denomination mind you.

It's not whatever you say. It's not a denomination. Actually. I agree with him now. I totally agree with him now you see the denomination of the body of Christ is an An offshoot. In other words, we're this we're that but we're all identified as part of the body of Christ.

Yeah, this group or at least this young man this older man. Hey, I agree with him.

Yeah, so. You guys let me first say you did an excellent job. We're gonna go through some of the video. I did some clips.

Um, let me ask you a question real quick. I got interrupt. Is facebook working? Uh, everybody out there if you're on facebook, would you say hi or something? I only saw one post at the beginning. And i'm not sure that the comment section is working.

Okay while they're doing that I need to do a poll. I need to do a poll. Let me uh, oh I gotta I gotta share this um. For those who are listening on audio Uh, i'm gonna i'll try to find a way that maybe I could share this but We are looking for a new Artwork for my andrew rapport's rap report podcast.

So let me put this up. Here are our options. We have option one option two option three so folks who are watching live or even afterwards. Uh. If you're watching afterwards email us at info at striving for eternity dot org.

Let me know which one of these you prefer option one two or three. Now they they unfortunately are all scary. I understand because they have my face on it. But other than that um. There are three different options and and let me know why you like these.

Let me know if there's something you would like better in these um and so uh. Check these out. I'm going to leave these up for a bit so you can can see them and I Want to create a new artwork for my andrew rapport's rap report if you are not subscribed to that podcast.

Okay, you don't necessarily need to be subscribed to andrew rapport's rap report to be saved. But why take the chance? Just saying um. That was kind of like a joke, but uh, but seriously subscribe follow uh the rap report that's wrapped with two p's and.

Uh, let me know which one of these you prefer option one two or three. Which one is the one you think looks best if you think well, hey, none of them. Let me know why if one of them let me know why you choose the one you choose so that uh We have a better idea so far that I wish we could actually hold on we can do a poll.

Hold on we can do it. Yeah, I can do a poll on youtube. So those in youtube I'm i'm gonna do this right now. This is something we I wanted to do last week and did not so let me uh Do this really quick live.

Uh, which. Now that doesn't mean by the way while you're doing that that doesn't mean to do like the What do you call it photoshop thing where you put a face in there or something like that? You know, that doesn't mean to do that.

So I like this one better, but but if you did that that would be hilarious as long as it was clean and christian.

Well, you know so so if if you're watching on If you're watching right now On youtube, I just put a poll out there on youtube um, not sure exactly how this works, but you should be able to Uh to vote in the poll On youtube so and I will see those polls that come in so that way we could know what you guys think.

I want you guys as our audience to be able to have some say in this to be able to Add to what we're doing. Um we are we have uh reviews is one way and actually I should I don't know if I If I brought this up last week, so let me bring this up real quick.

Is we uh, I think I I think I did this review did it? Justin did I do a review last week? From uh brian simmons. I don't know, but i'm not positive. All right. Let me let me just uh bring that up because I know we got a new review.

And anyone that gives us a review will share that review online. And so brian gave us a new review. And I want to go over that Let's see did I do the one where he was i'm looking it up at where he is on I think I did for your free radio .com the love fm.

I don't I'm not sure. Okay. Well just five five star review. Uh from grappler's quest. That's my our friend brian uh friend of the ministry here and he says The title is christ-centered instruction and Discipleship and he says christ-centered instruction and discipleship from pastor andrew met him in the summer of 2014.

And he brought me to the truth of salvation through christ alone saved by his grace through faith. And not of our works for god knew We would boast he offered to help me uh to help us with content on his countless book projects and Love hope fm radio ministry at your free Radio .com.

That's your free radio .com. God bless this ministry and podcast community. All the glory to god now. I met brian. Um Brian was a guy who a friend of a friend I came I went down to meet with him. And uh, it was it was quite interesting.

Uh, he was um Let's just say he was he he was a guy who was Really had a lot of questions and we sat down for several hours at a diner talked through all of his arguments that he had and uh, he ended up coming to receive christ that day and we were just really blessed by The way that god is working in his life and so, uh, just really thankful for the um.

For the review that that he has given to us. So we're grateful for that. Uh Let me just say justin I know you know this um before we get started with the program today today's Program is going to deal with the question of does baptism save and what we're going to do for the first probably hour Is go over your conversation justin that you and josiah who's backstage.

We're going to bring him in a moment that you and josiah had with norm the minister at a church of christ. I'm going to explain why norm's not here today uh. We're going to do that for the first hour the second hour i'm going to answer some of the I'm going to go through some of the questions.

He had that I had for him and his answers and try to Uh go through the answering the question why baptism does not save. Um, sorry, um. But I want to say that throughout this program there there is a chance, uh, this is going to be hard.

Um I I want to be open with with you guys my audience I want you I want you to I I don't want to hide things from you guys and stuff like that. I'm, just going to tell you right now. Uh, this is going to be a hard program for me.

Okay. Uh some of you know and and thank you justin last week you guys were were praying for my family. You knew that I was down in florida. Probably seeing my mother for the the last time my mother has is on hospice and um I uh.

It's just hard i'll put it that way I got word from my dad. That he's going to have a very difficult conversation with my mom after the weekend. That conversation is probably going to include that they're going to start morphing and once you start that, uh.

That's the beginning of the end when you're in hospice. And so um. So justin asked me not to do the show. He said he was prepared and ready uh, but I I Did a lot of prep for this show and I really feel that I owe it to you guys To be here to be prepared, uh and trying to do my the best that I can do to help you guys in your apologetics, so um.

Uh, this may be a difficult show for me and there may be times that I have to just bail out I'm, just telling you that up front. Just emotionally with things going on. I may just give it over to justin at some point, but We're going to see all right.

I appreciate all of you who've been praying. Um, I know i've gotten a lot of people that have been emailing the ministry asking Uh how my mother's doing, uh, basically she's dying. I mean, that's how she's doing.

Uh, it is. There's no other way of explaining it. They're trying hospice is trying to just deal with the pain and they're Just dealing with the fact that she's getting to an end of her life. Uh, she is not a believer.

We went down there and tried everything we could to share the gospel with her. She rejected it now. We know she's heard the gospel we know she she you know, it's it's in god's hands whether uh, she is going to repent, um, but um I I believe that uh, god is sovereign and god is capable of of Bringing her to repentance if he so desires and so uh.

So that's that just just to give that. Um. As we look at the show so, uh.

As I said brother we're praying and uh, you know, it's it's a hard thing you know, it's uh. Dealing with the loss of any family member is hard. And uh dealing with the Repercussions that you know, what's happening to your your mother and.

That happened to my father, you know, I witnessed to him several times and he didn't want to hear it. And and I I understand and If you need to drop out. You have my love our love. One of my closest friends.

And uh, you mean the world to me and I know you mean the world to these people here, too. And we're praying so.

I thank you for that. Uh, okay. So here the poll is still open. If you're on youtube you can uh still vote. I I see many that are voting option one two or three for the New artwork for andrew rap reports.

Rap report go follow that rap report is with two p's and so Uh, the voting is is coming in. I'm going to leave that going. Uh, i'll see how long we'll keep that and then we'll Take it off at some point.

So Uh, let me just let me just read real quick um the email from norm. And then we have a video we're gonna play and comment on. I have from your episode. And let me let me bring mr. Pastor. Josiah Nichols in.

Josiah welcome. You know, you did an excellent job. I said this before we went live. Uh, I I would like to see you have a. I would like to see you and norm do a show together. Um and norms in I guess invited us on his Podcast.

I don't know. Uh, I I don't quite remember that but uh, I invited norm on uh, and and his response was Um, let me find his response Is. When I invited him on he said that um I asked whether he's going to answer my questions.

He said yes, I will. I sent him a list of 20 questions. Yes, i'll answer your questions. I had been planning to answer them and already have most of them answered on my website. Honestly, I keep forgetting about them, but I will answer them and you can do what you want with them.

I would be happy to be on your program again. After one of you agrees to be on my program i've extended the invitation both times. I've never been on or sorry i've extended the invitation both times i've been on yours but no one from You has has responded.

So you or one of your folks come on? His on my program, uh, and. And i'll be happy to come on for a third appearance now right off the bat. I I did respond to him and say um, I did ask justin and Neither justin nor I remember him inviting us on now.

He says on both programs both I re-listened To the entire program. The second one he was on he never gave an invitation not once. Now i'm gonna say maybe he forgot. Let's give credit where you know, let's try to be.

You know as as gracious as we can um. But on the first episode he kind of gave this broad Invitation like hey you guys could come on. It wasn't like Come on, or i'm not coming on yours. So he's not going to come on until one of us goes on his now I I see that John is not on camera.

So in other words i'd bring him on on camera to ask him, but I do believe that this whole thing with Preacher norm started when john one of our guys one of our regulars was on his program. So he says none of us have been on his program.

Uh, I could be mistaken justin help me out maybe josiah I I know that. You know i'm not thinking so straight these days if john went on his program and john's one of our guys. Does that mean one of our guys actually did go on his program?

Yeah, definitely. Uh, I listened to the conversations. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

I just I I thought maybe it was just me. So one of us did go on his program. In fact, that's actually where it started. Okay, I just just wanted to check. Um. And and he he wanted us to go on his program monday night now Justin you are in school monday through wednesday.

You do this show on thursday. Um, I tried to explain to him. I am busy every night of the week. I have a meeting Uh christian podcast community meeting on monday nights, so I couldn't do that so. Sorry, so maybe josiah we you know, maybe you could get in touch with him.

I would love to watch that you and preacher norm. Uh get on there. Okay, there's there's mr. John john. We were you. I just want to check were you on norm's show. Did you go on his show at some point?

You may be muted. You're still muted. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, he's just waving to the camera. Sorry.

Um. Yeah, I was on his show. Um on rumble. You can find his uh show on bible q and a. On on rumble and you can't even just look on. You can find preacher norm On google and you'll find pretty much everything he's on.

Um.

So you were so you were actually on his program. Yeah, okay by the way I just I I I always like to show your your name because. All of us have our real names and your name is I believe and i'm baptized.

Every week you change your name. It's entertaining to see so, uh, all right. So just for the record there we got it. John was on his program. Uh, so there you go norm, but let me let me read what norm said.

Uh, and I am glad for for josiah. Justin, uh, i'm glad that I did the video that we're going to look at. I did that prior to getting this email and i'm glad I did because Uh his email response to me Uh was quite interesting.

He he said he's gonna pass. He he said his response was uh, i'll pass. I'll just watch what you have to say. And then reveal your blatant dishonesty in my to my audience. It was definitely an eye-opening experience for me.

I'll be discussing my experience with uh with you and your Uh group there, uh in my in the next few episodes. So and I he says no need to apologize. I'm going to get to that in a moment. What I apologized for um, I know.

Anyone calling me chicken must be kidding or lying. I'll explain that in a moment. But then I I said to him I said lol. You're talking about our dishonesty. It's too funny. We will we'll be glad to play your lies.

You ask people to go back and listen to what you said and I did. You clearly claimed you did not say things that you did say. I was surprised That you believe baptism is necessary because jesus was baptized yet.

You admit That those are two different baptisms. And wow, your ignorance on the history of baptism was incredible. Uh, he you know, and so his response to that. Was this and and justin, I know I read this to you before we went.

I know you're giggling. I know, uh, I I i'm I granted i'm not too i'm really I am putting sarcastic voice in this but uh. Here was his response. Now. This was all in the pretense of I sent him a list of 20 questions.

I wanted him to answer He and so I was asking him to answer him. So he said yes, I will send them to you tomorrow. I'll also be doing a series of videos answering them. You're certainly welcome to use my videos.

Or any of my other videos from my nearly 20 year old youtube video library. I'm sure any honest person would clearly see that my views Are very well documented and consistent. I also know That the average viewer would not recognize the blatant trickery In how you manipulated the conversation.

Things like using terms interchangeably and then making it look like I was committing. I was Commenting on one thing while you switched to something else. I caught it. And commented on it at the time.

But sadly most of the viewers tuned in already having their minds made up about who's right and who's wrong. I try to just to dissuade my audience from doing that but I know that They do anyway. So it was fun.

But i'm done with that with you now though I would still be happy to have you on my program if you can find the time by the way. Why are some of your comments turned off on the episodes that I was on.

Do you do that for all your episodes on youtube? I had I would I would have thought that you wanted your audience feedback. So I responded to this email. And here's my response. Um, wow, you really have an inflated view of yourself.

You accuse us of quote blatant trickery unquote and quote manipulating the conversation unquote. You have you are so deceived. I plan to expose the prideful tactics you used To avoid answering questions and play the victim.

You are projecting your behavior on us once again. Uh in our three hour talk I had to point out your fallacy of equivocation. Which is using one a word two different ways on multiple times. It is it it is not our viewers That have made up their mind.

You refuse to submit to scripture, but I I understand why because you have your father the devil. You are not repentant nor a believer since you have another gospel we do not. Uh turn off comments youtube removes live comments once the show ends.

I do not know why. They do that but uh, but I I'm, not surprised that you think evil of us rather than understanding the way youtube works. Sad since you you do live streaming on youtube for 20 years you claim.

Which is really incredible since youtube is not 20 years old yet. Just another lie on your point. On your part youtube was created february 14th 2005. Please learn To know your facts before you try to deceive others.

Okay, and so, uh, so yeah youtube just had its anniversary it is about 17 years old. So he's gonna come back and say well I said nearly 20 years. He's rounding up. He's rounding up. He's running up. He was one of the first people on youtube i'm sure.

But all right. So I I want to go through uh, I I put together a video um. That is basically going through some of the stuff you guys had done um. You know, you you guys did an episode where you went through in detail um.

You know with norm some of the issues. Uh, you folks you can go back two weeks ago. Listen to the episode from two weeks ago and check that out and you'll be able to see that. So, let me let me share the video here and like I said, I have seven pages of notes and Let me see there were 33 clips.

So this is going to take The the video itself is is 30 minutes long.

All right. Well before you start I want to say this. Every time I look at the man, you know who reminds me of. Who does he look like. Rush limbaugh.

I don't know. No, no, don't insult for some ball that one. No, no, no. No, i'm not talking about his politics.

I'm, just saying it just looks like wrestling with me every time I see him. It's like I mean, I thought you know, hey.

So I like it. I was going to comment on his shirt last week and try to you know, be polite and everything. You just all. It was all in there.

Yeah, well, we're going to talk about. We're going to talk about the way you two handled this versus the way he handled this. And so let me play this and and then we're gonna Engage with this. So this first clip i'm gonna i'm gonna I want to play this and i'm gonna have an apology.

Right after it. So let me this is how the show started last week and uh preacher norm. Welcome in. Hey, well the the.

The first interaction I got tonight was did I chicken out? So.

If it can get politer that would be okay. Well, how about how about this? Um, are we christians?

No. Okay. Well, that's how polite you're gonna be. Okay. Okay. So let me address that right off the bat. Uh, what happened last week? Uh, you guys were doing a show live I was on I think facebook or youtube I forget which one I think it was facebook and I was commenting in facebook.

And I could not see that norm was in the background. I I did email norm and ask his forgiveness for that comment. Now for anyone who's a regular here at apologetics live, you know that we have Dozens and dozens and dozens of people who challenge us on a whole slew of topics hebrew israelites flat earth Calvinism charismatic gifts.

I mean we we got a ton of people that have have come out and challenged us and we say Join apologetics live and they don't show up. And so I you guys were talking I didn't see by the way I didn't know that you had when I got came on and and joined you guys.

I didn't know you mentioned the holocaust day Day of remembrance, so I mentioned that without realizing until I listened to the podcast that you guys had mentioned that. Uh, I I didn't know norm was backstage.

So I I came in not knowing that I just commented so I I said something that was public and therefore I always believe that if i've said something in public that needs Uh repentance I do that publicly as well.

So I I do ask Publicly, even though i've asked privately for to norm for his forgiveness. I wasn't insulting him and saying that anything about his character. Uh saying he was chickening out. Uh, it wasn't some sort of insult.

It is that we have a lot of people that come in challenge us and then don't show up and so I I wasn't sure we did this show and I didn't know if norm Wasn't showing it is unfortunately common for folks that challenge us.

And so Uh, I asked norm's forgiveness I do know he's not here this week. Maybe he'll pop in we'll see. So let's deal with clip number two and in clip number two. Uh, we're going to expose that he clearly wants to play a double standard and play the victim check this out I'm, not a safe person.

Oh, no, not not from what you're saying tonight. No, I okay.

So you can render a judgment that i'm not a safe person. But if I render a judgment that you're not a safe person, i'm gonna call. Okay. Got it.

No, see now that's on. That was never said never once said. Not once that never never once did that make it saying that therefore you're in a cult you're assuming.

So you don't believe that. Oh, yeah, you're right. I'm extrapolating that extrapolating that from.

You've asked me this at least six times in this episode and each time i've told you I don't know enough about what you believe. Yet, but yet you make that statement as an absolute statement. Okay, so so right there I that was from the previous time when I was on with him.

And I want you guys part of what we do at apologetics live is to show you. Some things people do so that you know how to deal with different things. That come up and so we want you to be able to see this behavior point it out and show you what's going on.

So what you saw there is. Now if you listen to the justice for two clips when Justin asked him and on the very first episode he was on where I asked him if he would call me a brother in christ. He was very quick to say no.

He didn't even Give time to listen.

To what I believe now granted and point out too that not only that but if I don't believe you're a christian i'm going to quickly try to get to the gospel because I don't know if you're going to last another 10 minutes.

And and in this conversation I want to make sure he gets the gospel and I did and you did as well. And I want to point that out because he refused. He would not. Upon being given opportunities after opportunities.

He would not give the gospel. He told us well, you can find it here in this passage this passage this passage. But he would not explain what must I do to be safe.

Okay, that's something I was going to bring up because on both episodes. He was on we shared the gospel and we shared the gospel specifically with him because we can we're concerned for his soul and I I said that.

Uh, and we'll I have a clip on that but the the thing that we end up Having is here. You see that he was very quick to say you're not saved. No, yes, you pointed out. He didn't care to share the gospel with us.

But before he even knew what I believed he was willing to say I wasn't saved. Yeah, so now with you he said well as as we'll see, you know, he said well on the you know, he said with you and john. No, you're not saved with josiah who he hadn't talked to.

He said he wasn't saved based on things he had said but he is very quick to say you guys myself. Not a believer. Okay, and and so what is he doing there? I want you to notice the the tactics that's used.