October 11, 2017 Show with David Wiedis AND Jim Rhodes on “Growing in Ministry: Leading Courageously & Transitioning Well”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 11th day of October 2017.

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Well, I'm delighted to have on the program two men who have never been on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio before.

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We have David Wiedis, a Jewish believer in Christ Jesus, committed to Reform Theology, and he's the executive director of Serving Leaders Ministries.

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And joining him is Jim Rhodes, a missionary veteran with over 40 years experience on the mission field, and they are both going to be discussing growing in ministry, leading courageously, and transitioning well.

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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome both David Wiedis and Jim Rhodes to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio for the very first time.

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Greetings, gentlemen. Thanks so much for having us. This is Dave, and it's a pleasure to be with you. Great.

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Thanks, Chris. Thanks again for having us. This is Jim. Glad to be with you. Great. And just to let you know that you, too, can speak up whenever you have something that you'd like to say.

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You don't have to wait for me to call on you. This is always a little bit more difficult when you have two people on the phone, and it would be a good idea if every time you said something, you identified yourself.

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Your voices sound pretty much the same to me. So, first of all, before I get your personal testimonies, because we usually like to start our program when we have new people that have never been on before, we like to have them give an abbreviated version of their testimony of how they came to Saving Faith in Christ.

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But before we do that, David, tell us something about Serving Leaders Ministries. Sure. Serving Leaders Ministries is a ministry that is designed and created to come alongside ministry leaders, including pastors, deacons, elders, missionaries, anybody who is strategic in the

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Church. And it was formed...actually, we're celebrating our 10th year anniversary now, and really what we do is we provide counseling for pastors and ministry leaders.

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We also do some ministry coaching. We do a lot of training and seminars. We help pastors go on retreats.

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Sometimes we will lead retreats, but we also have some resources where people have volunteered their beach homes or some other really great places for pastors to go on retreat and or vacations.

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So, basically, the idea is because ministry leaders are serving so many people and they're strategic,

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I thought to myself, who serves those who serve? And so that's how that developed.

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Serving Leaders is a ministry for pastors and ministry leaders. Well, sounds like a great organization.

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In fact, I don't know if you're going to be available on Thursday, October 26th, but if you are,

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I'm having a pastor's luncheon here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. About 100 pastors are expected to be there, and the featured speaker is

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Bill Shishko of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square, New York, who is now regional home missionary for the

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Reformation Metro New York, which is an organization sponsored by the Orthodox Presbyterian denomination, and I would love to have you out there if you're able to.

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I know you don't have to make a decision right now, but it would be great for you to get up for five minutes before Bill speaks and give a presentation and have your material on hand at the pastor's luncheon.

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Well, thank you. That sounds awesome. I'm right here in Pennsylvania, so I know that you are, too, and I don't know how far away you are from Carlisle, but we would love to have you out there if you're able to make it.

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Now, you happen to be... I'm from Westchester, Pennsylvania. It's only about an hour and a half or so away. Yeah, great. Well, if you can make it,

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I'd love to have you there, and you can bring as much as your material, and if you have a banner or anything, we would love to have you hang it up, and you could speak before our keynote speaker.

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We're also having the state representative of Pennsylvania, Steve Bloom, who's running for Congress.

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He's going to be saying a few words. He's our guest of honor that day, and Steve is a very strong Christian, outspoken

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Christian, unashamed of his faith. It's always great to meet somebody like him who isn't just pandering to a specific special interest group or lobby.

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He really means what he says, and he brings his faith very much into the forefront of his political career, so it's always great to be a part of anything that Steve is a part of.

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And before I have you give your testimony, I completely forgot to introduce you to my co -host in the studio, Reverend Buzz Taylor.

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Yeah, he told you guys to speak up, but he won't let me do that. That's going to be on the show with you.

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Thanks for joining us. And so, David, you are a

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Jewish believer, and one of the things that I always find fascinating is when

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I meet somebody who is a Jewish believer, who is in love with the Reformed faith and intricately a part of that, committed to it, even in spite of some slanderous things that have been said about the

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Reformed faith by our misinformed brothers in Christ who happen to be from more dispensational or messianic backgrounds.

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And I know that not all of them do this either. I don't want to broad brush them, but it's good to see somebody who still is following their convictions from the scriptures.

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Tell us about your testimony and what kind of a religious atmosphere you were raised in, because just because you're

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Jewish doesn't mean that not all Jewish people have a cookie -cutter story about how they came to embrace

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Christ. And also tell us about how you came to understand and embrace

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Reformed theology as well. Sure. I grew up in a household, but I would characterize our

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Jewish household as more chicken soup Jew rather than very religious. You know, we were culturally

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Jewish, we celebrated Hanukkah and Passover. My grandfather emigrated over here from Lithuania many, many years ago because of persecution of the

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Jews there. I had an uncle, a great -uncle who was murdered by the Romanians.

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My earliest memories were wanting to know who God was, and I really wasn't taught very much in my family about God, but I intuitively, internally just longed to know

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God. One of my earliest memories, as a matter of fact, Chris, was that I was about three years old, I walked outside,

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I looked up in the sky, and that was in the day when planes actually wrote in the sky. So I saw smoke in the sky, and I thought

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God was writing to me, but the problem was I didn't know how to read. I ran back, grabbed my mother, and said, you know, come and tell me what

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God's saying, and she came out there, and at that point the smoke had dissipated, and I remember just being crushed because I wanted to know who

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God was. Flash forward some years, I was on a historical field trip.

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I was actually in high school, and I was going to the old tenant meeting house in Freehold, New Jersey, which is where David Brainerd had served the

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Indians as a communion as well. The Battle of Mammoth took place, and Molly Pitcher was. So it was a very historic place, as I understand it, part of the

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Great Awakening took place in that area. I was in the graveyard, and I prayed this prayer.

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Now this sounds like an evangelical prayer, but I had never even heard this kind of prayer before, but here's what I did. I said,

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God, whoever you are, I want to know who you are, and if you'll show me who you are, if you reveal yourself to me,

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I will give you my life and live my life for you. I walked inside the meeting house, the church, and all

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I can tell you is what I experienced. At the time, I experienced this tremendous heat come over my body and tremendous peace.

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Now, I didn't know there was a Holy Spirit at that time, but what happened was

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God came to me, gave me tremendous heat and peace, and I just was transfixed for about 20 minutes.

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I went home that day, nobody was at my house, people came to the door, they were proselytizing, asking me about Christ, and I basically said, look,

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I'm a Jew, my parents would kill me if I converted, no thank you, and I sent them away. And then that evening, a friend of mine, who had become a

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Christian a year before, but had never shared the gospel with me, basically sat down with me and shared the gospel, and as he was speaking, the same experience happened.

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I was just impressed with his heat and peace, and as I heard the gospel,

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I responded to it, and I gave my life to Christ at that point. Praise God. And how did you eventually come to discover and embrace the

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Reformed faith? I did, and it was a journey, because the first thing that happened is

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I went to a Southern Baptist church, I then later went to a Methodist college,

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I was in various streams of the faith, and then I would say in the 80s, the mid -to -late 80s, a friend of mine introduced me to Reformation theology, and I embraced it.

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I mean, it started to make sense to me, and then I actually had to admit

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Greg Bonson, and I went to some of his seminars and presuppositional apologetics, and then

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I ultimately joined a PCA church, and for about 12 years was a

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PCA elder, a ruling elder in a Presbyterian church. Wow. Well, you've certainly got my co -host's attention,

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Rev. Buzz Taylor, because one of his greatest heroes of all time is Greg Bonson. Yeah, and I'm in a

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PCA church also. And not only that, Chris, I think you've got to at least let them know that if we look out the window where we are sitting right now, we can see

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Molly Pitcher's grave. What does that have to do with anything? He was mentioning her earlier. Oh, somehow

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I must have gotten distracted. I didn't hear Molly Pitcher. Yes, Molly Pitcher's grave, or the grave of the woman that the community dubbed as Molly Pitcher, is probably,

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I don't know, what do you say, 300 yards from where I'm sitting? Yeah. Right here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

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No, that's... Yep. And well, yeah, and I had the privilege, by the way, of meeting

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Greg Bonson as well when he was preaching in Brooklyn at a Bible conference, and one of the things that I still kick myself over to this very day is that the pastor hosting the conference gave me the opportunity to interview

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Greg Bonson and his study for probably a half hour.

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I recorded it, and I lost the tape, and Dr. Bonson went home to be with the

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Lord a few years after that, and so I never had my opportunity to find that and air that interview.

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I always wanted to air that interview, but we also have, as I announced earlier on the program,

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Jim Rhodes. Why don't you give us your personal testimony of salvation, how you came about providentially to embrace the

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Lord Jesus Christ, and what kind of religious atmosphere you were raised in, if any, etc.,

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and how you had a burden to eventually become a missionary. Thanks, Chris.

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Yeah, I definitely, I grew up a child of the 60s right outside of Washington, D .C.,

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and while there, you know, growing up in that environment and all the change that was happening in our country at that time, one of the driving things as a young man in my life was a desire to see my life count for something, to see it become significant, and, you know,

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I thought that the way that that would happen was through becoming successful, you know, gaining the American dream, and as much as a high school student can gain those things,

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I gained measured degrees of success going through high school, and as a high school student,

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Jesus found me and came after me, and I found him through the ministry of Billy Graham, and Billy Graham, watching

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Billy Graham on television in the 1960s on our black -and -white television set at home was the first exposure

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I had because my family grew up in a liberal church environment.

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We were liberal churchgoers as a family, and the only exposure

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I ever had to people who really seemed to know and follow Jesus was the people

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I saw on TV on the Billy Graham crusade, and when I was 16,

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I had the opportunity to attend one of those, and the only scripture that I knew at that time, because I did not read my

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Bible, was the scripture that I'd heard Dr. Graham use on TV, and so one of the scriptures that went through my mind as I went to be a part of one of the crusades was, every man that Jesus ever called, he called publicly, and don't be ashamed of me if I'm not ashamed of you, and so when the invitation was given that night,

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I went forward, and I sat there in the seat struggling with whether or not

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I was going to surrender and follow Christ, or whether I was going to hold on to my own life and try to make my own way and be acceptable on my own terms to God, and he kept coming after me and convicting me, and finally,

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I realized that the true significance in life is found only in a relationship with Jesus, and so the fellow had to ask three times for people to come down, and that night nobody moved, and I was sitting there, and I decided that I would go down and acknowledge that I'd put my faith in Christ, but I just didn't want to be first, and no one went down, and the music, you know, just as I am, music stopped, and for whatever reason, the evangelist that night looked up into the stands and said,

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I believe that there's one person up there that really wants to come down tonight, and so we're going to sing one more song for you, and I just want you to know that you don't belong to the enemy anymore.

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You belong to the Lord Jesus. Whoever you are, you get up and come. My older sister was sitting next to me, and she said, you know,

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I don't think that they're going to get anyone to come down tonight, and I asked her if she'd hold my program, and I went down, and I was the only one that came forward that night, and a week later, or a little bit later in the week, they asked me if I'd come back and share my testimony as a high school student that had come to Christ that week, and I wrote up this great testimony that was like the ones

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I'd seen on TV. The problem was it wasn't at all true, and that Saturday night when

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I was out on the platform getting ready to speak with my notes that I had written, my family trooped in.

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My mother, my father, my sisters, my brother, they sat down right in front, and I was looking at my notes, and I go,

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I can't say this. This isn't true, and so I actually wound up giving probably the best testimony of my life and just telling about how

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Jesus had sought me out, and when

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I wasn't necessarily looking for him, and that he had revealed himself, and that he was worthy of my trust, and that I trusted in him, and from there,

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I got... A young man on the platform that night was involved at the University of Maryland with a campus ministry called

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Campus Crusade for Christ, and he got me involved in his Bible study, and from there,

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I went on to, through a large series of circumstances, to meet Dr. Gilbright, who challenged me to join the staff of Campus Crusade, and I served with Cruz for almost 40 years.

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Well, praise God, and before we forget, I will try to remember to announce these special events that you guys are having in the near future, but I know that you're going to be having an event, actually two events here in Pennsylvania, one at the

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United Reformed Church Classes meeting at the

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Carbondale United Reformed Church here in Carbondale, Pennsylvania, and then on November 4th, you're going to be speaking at the

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Providence Presbyterian Church in York, Pennsylvania, but aren't you also going to be speaking at my friend

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Drew Enigenberg's congregation there at the West Sable Reformed Bible Church in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island?

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No, actually, it's the October 17th up at the

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Reformed Conference, the classes, is where we're scheduled. That's next

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Tuesday, October 17th. Oh, okay. I guess it was Drew that told me about it, and I assumed it was going to be happening at his congregation.

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Yeah, yeah. So tell us about the... Excuse me? I was just going to say maybe we've been invited and haven't received the invitation.

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You know, that's happened to us before. No, I think it was probably he was just telling me about this event, the classes meeting that you are going to be having.

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Tell us about what you are going to be speaking about there, and is this open for the public, or is this just for the

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United Reformed Church of North America pastors? It's actually open to anybody who'd like to come, and the idea here is really the title is

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Growing in Ministry, Leading Courageously and Transitioning Well, and really this came about because Jim has had such an unbelievable ministry experience that Serving Leaders has hosted pastors' gatherings over the years.

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Every few months we get together. We get a bunch of pastors together trying to shepherd pastors' hearts, and last year

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I thought it would be great to get Jim involved and to share some of the wisdom that he has in terms of leadership and navigating through transitions because every pastor, from the time they start to the time they retire, is going through transition and really has to navigate really through multiple transitions with a lot of wisdom, and there's challenges.

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There's landmines along the way. They have the potential to sabotage ministry leaders, and so I thought

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I would interview Jim on the wisdom that he has, and so that's how that started, and then most of our presentation is going to be me interviewing

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Jim on some of these topics, and then I'm going to be speaking also. We're going to turn the tables, and Jim's going to interview me on avoiding pastoral burnout and flameout, which is my word for moral failure, but everybody,

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I think, knows what burnout is, and so that's the agenda for the conference.

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That's going to be held at the Covenant United Reformed Church in Carbondale, Pennsylvania, is that right?

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That's correct. That's next Tuesday, October 17th between 1 and 5 p .m., so it's really going to be, the way we've set it up is to be,

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I'm going to be interviewing him. He'll be interviewing me, and then we break up. We have five topics. We break them up where each time we're going to have discussion questions where people will really interact with the material rather than being lectured at with a fire hydrant.

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People will be interacting with the issues, and then we do Q &A and just really learn based on the wisdom that we've gained over the years of either ministering to pastors or, in Jim's case, having led so many different organizations.

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You may not know, part of Jim's background was Jim basically parachuted into the

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Soviet Union doing ministry behind the Iron Curtain with churches, pastors.

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This was long before the days of cell phones, and he was not allowed to share any of what he was doing. He had amazing ministry there, and then in Egypt, and then as well as parts of North Africa.

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That may be something you want to ask Jim about because it's phenomenal ministry stories and just bravery on his part as well.

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He really took his life in his hands on that. Yeah, in fact, I've got to eventually put you in touch with a member of my own congregation,

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David Glantz, a retired United States Army colonel.

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David Glantz, who is one of the foremost experts on the Soviet Union and Russia in the

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United States. He's written dozens of books on Russia and the

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Soviet Union, and has taught at the United States Army War College, and so on.

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He's a really fascinating gentleman who is an usher at the congregation where I'm a member, and it was a really fascinating discussion that we had on Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio.

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But before I get into some of that with you, Jim, I just want to make sure that I give our listeners the contact information for the

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Covenant Reformed Church in Carbondale, Pennsylvania. The phone number is 570 -282 -6400, and once again, that's area code 570 -282 -6400.

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The website for the Covenant Reformed Church of Carbondale, Pennsylvania, is, and I have to enlarge it because I am at 55 years of age, going rapidly blind, it's covenantrc .org,

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covenantrc .org. But tell us some of that, expand upon what

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David just told us, Jim. Well, I had been ministering to college students with CRU, formerly known as Campus Christus Exercise, for, let's see, probably four or five years in the early 1980s, when

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I was approached with the opportunity. Actually, there was a gentleman that came to visit our church one evening.

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I had had a leading from the Lord to sense that I had taken a class sponsored at that time by the

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U .S. Center for World Mission, called the Perspectives on the World Christian Movement, one of the most excellent classes out there on mission.

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And during that class, God had laid it on my heart that he had created Barbara and I and our family to help reach a people for Christ.

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And the problem was, class ended before he shared with us who those people were, except that they weren't the

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American people. And so we began a prayerful search, like,

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Lord, who are these people that you want us to help spread the gospel of your kingdom to?

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And shortly after we began praying that, a gentleman showed up at our church, and he was sharing about how he was doing a ministry behind the

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Iron Curtain, going from underground location to underground location, providing seminary training for pastors behind the

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Iron Curtain. And I thought, well, I couldn't do that, but I could do evangelism and discipleship training.

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And I prayed about it. I thought, that'd be really interesting. And I kind of forgot about it, honestly.

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And then a couple months later, I was approached by a group that was beginning a ministry of evangelism and discipleship behind the

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Iron Curtain, and they'd read about some of my background, and they approached me to get some training and become part of that.

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And we traveled behind the Iron Curtain into the Soviet Union, traveling on a circuit among the major cities of the

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Soviet Union, looking to open up campus works and reach young people for Christ.

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And it was amazing. And one of the things that I learned from that whole experience was that there is no such thing in the world as a closed country, because we serve a

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God who, like Paul prayed in Ephesians 4, he said, pray that God would open a door for the gospel.

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See, where the doors appear to be closed, we serve the one who can simply kick that door in.

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And that's what we saw happen. And I was there in the late 80s, during the time of Perestroika, and then

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Glasnost, and the rise of solidarity in Poland, and the

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Velvet Revolution in Czechoslovakia. And I will tell you that those governments fell.

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It was never reported this way, they made the newspapers, but they fell because they were opposed to the progress of the gospel among their people.

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And they took on the king of all kings. And no one is big enough to take

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Jesus on. And they fell because of that. In fact, very few Americans know that there was a specific day on which

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Mikhail Gorbachev signed the Soviet Union as a government out of existence. It became the

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Russian Federation that it is today. That happened on December 25, 1991.

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The Soviet Union died on Jesus's birthday, and I don't think that was a coincidence. Wow. And I know that you are not the scheduled speakers at the other event in November, it's

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Dr. Penny Freeman, but can you tell us something about that event? The theme is Voices, Helping Survivors of Abuse Find Their Voice at the

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Providence Presbyterian Church in York, Pennsylvania. Penny Freeman is on staff at Serving Leaders Ministries, and she has been doing counseling for about probably 30 -plus years.

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Her husband, John Freeman, founded Harvest USA, the ministry for sexually broken people.

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And part of Penny's specialty has been working with survivors of sexual abuse, and so she's going to be doing a seminar on that topic.

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So she's just got a wonderful way of presenting and working with people who've been through, who've survived sexual abuse.

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Well, if anybody wants to attend that meeting, that's November 4th at the

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Providence Presbyterian Church in York, Pennsylvania, you can call them at 717 -767 -4772.

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Or you can go to their website, which is yorkpca .org, yorkpca .org.

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And of course, the website, again, for Servant Leaders, or Serving Leaders, I should say,

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Serving Leaders Ministries, is servingleaders .org, servingleaders .org.

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So give us some different scenarios. In fact, we'll have you do this when we come back from the break, because we have to go to our first break right now.

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But when we come back, give us certain scenarios of specific things that you have already helped local churches with, and things that you can do to help the local church be a more vibrant lighthouse, not only for reaching the lost, and not only for further equipping the saints, but also, obviously, bringing praise, honor, and glory to God first and foremost.

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But when we come back, we will have you go through some of that, and so our listeners have more of a grasp on Serving Leaders Ministries.

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And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

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U .S .A., and please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter. That's c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

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Don't go away. God willing, we will be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Have you been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio?

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We remain on the air because of our faithful sponsors and because of listeners like you. There are four ways you can help.

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First, do you know potential sponsors who may wish to advertise their goods or services on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio?

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Second, whenever possible, purchase the products or use the services that our sponsors advertise, and then let them know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Thirdly, you can also donate to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio by going to our website at ironsharpensironradio .com

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and click support at the top of the page. But most importantly, keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in your prayers.

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We hope that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio blesses you for many years to come. Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every

36:52

Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am

37:02

.com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions.

37:10

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon

37:16

Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study, because everyone needs a pastor. And that was the voice of the aforementioned

37:23

Bill Shishko of Reformation Metro, New York, who is the keynote speaker at the

37:29

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio pastor's luncheon coming up on Thursday, October 26th, 11 a .m.

37:35

to 2 p .m. at the Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

37:41

It's absolutely free of charge, and not only are you going to be fed for free physically and spiritually and have a great time of fun and fellowship with fellow men in the ministry, but if you attend, you'll also be leaving with a very heavy sack of brand new books that have been donated by major publishers all over the

38:01

United States and the United Kingdom. Each man will probably wind up leaving with at least a couple of dozen books, and these are brand new books.

38:10

Each publisher donates a hundred copies of a title that I select, so every man attending can have each of those copies of those titles, and we have quite a number of publishers donating those books to us, so every year it's quite a treat for those attending.

38:28

And there's no hidden agenda. There's nothing at all for sale there, and if you'd like to register for this, you have to be a man in ministry, and you could be a pastor or an elder, which

38:39

I happen to believe are the same office, and you can be a deacon. You can be a parachurch leader.

38:46

Whatever kind of ministry that you are involved in, as long as you are a man in ministry, you are welcome to this free event.

38:53

Just send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com,

38:59

and put pastor's luncheon in the subject line. Our guest of honor that day will be

39:06

Steve Bloom, Pennsylvania State Representative, who's also running for Congress, and a very powerful

39:13

Christian brother in Christ, who is dedicated to the truths of the scriptures and has an unwavering commitment to them.

39:21

And now we are back to our discussion with David Wetus of Serving Leaders Ministries, and also

39:29

Jim Rhodes, who is a veteran missionary with over 40 years of experience in the mission field. We are discussing growing in ministry, leading courageously, and transitioning well.

39:38

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com,

39:48

and please give us your first name, at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. So tell me,

39:55

Dave, let's have more of a breakdown, a more detailed understanding of exactly how you go about helping churches.

40:06

How specifically do you get to even know who these churches are? Are they typically reaching out to you, and how are they hearing about you, and et cetera?

40:17

First of all, let's talk about our counseling services. We have two locations, one in West Chester, one in Willow Grove.

40:23

We have about eight or nine counselors, and all of us are experienced in ministry.

40:30

And basically what happens is we have pastors, missionaries, various people in ministry, where we do marriage counseling, and we do professional counseling.

40:41

So a pastor may come in who has been struggling with depression, or anxiety, or sexual sin, and you think about any kind of health care professional, basically we're working with people who have been in various situations, so we provide personal counseling for them.

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We have people who've had missionaries who've been through trauma overseas. We have missionaries who come in on furlough.

41:10

We debrief them. We'll work with people with all kinds of problems, and including family problems.

41:16

Sometimes there's a lot of conflict within a family, so we do some marriage and family as well. So people struggling with pornography, you name it, and someone's calling us to help.

41:29

A common thing that I get is phone calls from ministry leaders who are burned out, or experiencing burnout, physical, emotional exhaustion, and try to help them work through that, either heal from it, or we do a lot of coaching to prevent it.

41:45

In the past three weeks I've done three seminars, and this Friday I'm doing a fourth on avoiding pastoral flameout and burnout.

41:53

Most pastors are perfectionistic. They work really, really hard, and many don't know when to stop.

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Many don't have the proper balance in their lives, and so they can, instead of being good stewards of the ministry

42:07

God's given them, they can just sort of squander it by going 80 hours a week, a non -stop, no vacation, no rest, no balance, and so that's the counseling piece.

42:20

We also, I do a lot of seminars on topics of interest to ministry leaders.

42:27

So, for example, avoiding sexual misconduct in ministry, legal and ethical issues in counseling and pastoral counseling.

42:35

I'm also an attorney as well, and so I've got a legal background, and so there's a number of seminars that I'll do.

42:45

One of the interests that I have is etiology of same -sex attraction and homosexuality, and so I've tried to do a very in -depth seminar on causes of homosexuality and what are the issues.

42:56

So, I give the church a very cogent, intelligent, biblical response and loving response to the issues that people struggle with.

43:06

So, we do a lot of seminars as well, and then another service that we offer to churches is mediation.

43:17

As you know, there's lots of conflict within the church, within church officers and things like that, pastoral staff, and so we frequently are called to do mediation between people just to help either carry out

43:32

Matthew 18 to facilitate conversations, to facilitate hard conversations amongst ministry leaders or when there's a church, you know, problem.

43:44

So, another seminar that I do, by the way, is avoiding pastoral abuse of authority.

43:51

Sometimes pastors get heavy -handed, and you've seen that. Oh, never in the Reformed Baptist community.

43:58

I'm just kidding. So, in any event, you know, you can jump in here because,

44:04

I mean, I could go on and on, but essentially we're trying to provide a very safe place for people to get help.

44:12

Everybody has issues. Everybody has family issues, marriage issues, and so oftentimes when pastors experience that, instead of getting help, they feel pressure to be a model or to hide their problems.

44:25

And so, what we see is people masking over and then medicating their issues, and that's where they get in trouble.

44:32

Instead of really honestly dealing with an issue, getting the appropriate help, there's so much pressure.

44:39

And you guys know that if you dare to reveal to some congregations or some elders a problem you're facing, you know, you may get fired or judged as opposed to getting help.

44:53

This is Jim here. Yeah, go ahead, Jim. That's actually how

44:58

Dave and I met, because I was serving as a missions leader overseeing, you know, hundreds of missionaries out on the field, and, you know, missionaries, and I had lots of pastor friends.

45:11

And the things Dave just shared are so true. And Dave and I met because I'd heard of Dave in Serving Leaders Ministries as a missions leader, and I needed help from someone who could help me help my missionaries and help help the pastor friends that I had, who were often stuck in the things that Dave mentioned and somewhat isolated.

45:40

And so, I began referring those people to Dave for help, and they would come back and tell me, oh,

45:47

Jim, thank you so much. Dave was so helpful, and it was just such, he helped me to walk out of this issue.

45:56

And then it was, I think, a couple years went by, and Dave and I were attending a fellowship dinner for another ministry, and we got sat at the same table.

46:10

And we were going around the table, introducing each other around the table, and Dave introduced himself and said,

46:16

I'm Dave Wetus. And I looked at him and I said, I'm Jim Rhodes. And we knew each other from the people that I'd referred to him, but that's how we made the connection, and we share a heart for helping those who are in ministry to do well and, more importantly, to finish well.

46:38

Great. And by the way, in case you're wondering why I made that Reformed Baptist joke,

46:43

I don't know if you two knew, but I am a Reformed Baptist. I just wanted to make that clear. You know, when you make fun of your own people, that's okay.

46:51

But anyway, my co -host, Reverend Buzz Taylor, has a... A couple words that caught my attention. What did you mean by debriefing missionaries?

47:03

Well... Go ahead, Jim. Go ahead, Dave. No, no, you go ahead. No, you go ahead, Dave. You start and I'll fill in.

47:09

All right. Missionaries, when they're on the field for a period of time, when they come back, they experience a host of issues from very practical issues to complex issues of coming back, readjusting, never feeling like you have a home because you've adapted to the foreign country, but now you come back.

47:34

People have changed. Life has gone on. So there's a whole... And then, of course, there's trauma.

47:40

We've worked with a number of missionaries who have been literally persecuted, seen people shot or been shot or had other things happen to them.

47:52

So there's a lot of care that needs to be given to people who are coming off the mission field or getting ready to go on the mission field.

48:01

I have found a woeful inadequacy of some of the people who are sent, for example, to go into sexual trafficking ministry without being adequately prepared.

48:13

Guess what you're going to be falling into pretty quickly. So we've seen that. But Jim has tons of experience.

48:19

Jim has overseen thousands and thousands of people overseas. So he can address this much better than I can.

48:26

Well, and one of the things that we saw together that Dave and I have seen together is especially for those...

48:33

Especially, but not only, for those who work in some of the harder places around the world, like the

48:40

Middle East, where I was helping to oversee some of our folks there, it's not uncommon over a period of time to see missionaries develop post -traumatic stress disorder, just like our soldiers do, because they live life in an area where they have to be constantly aware of their surroundings, constantly aware of what's going on around them, and that amps up their adrenaline, and they live life very amped up, and don't really realize that while it's happening, much like a soldier or sailor or airman would.

49:16

And missionaries suffer from post -traumatic stress, and don't necessarily, like a soldier or sailor or airman, don't necessarily understand that that's what's going on in their life, and they need a friendly person to come along and help them walk it through, and then perhaps get some help to walk with the

49:37

Lord through that. Chris, one of the other things that we fairly frequently do is we will do

49:43

Skype or other kinds of sessions with people who are actually on the field.

49:49

So I've been on the phone with somebody who's established an orphanage, for example, in Uganda, for example, and they need some counseling, and there's no one that they can go to.

50:03

They're in a different country, different culture, and that's, you know, multiply that by many times, because so many missionaries are isolated, just isolated from help.

50:17

I think getting to your question, too, about debriefing, Chris, a debrief, when a missionary returns from a period of mission, be it three, four, five years, or even one year as a kind of a stop -out kind of situation, it's not unlike, when you think about it, it's not unlike thinking about one of the

50:37

Apollo Moon missions that happened in the early 70s. There was a preparation of the astronaut before they launched.

50:47

Then there was the launch, which had its issues that had to be watched over, and then there was the actual, once they were up in space, there was the actual performing of the mission, but then we all know, who were old enough to remember those, that when the astronauts returned from the

51:05

Moon, the mission wasn't over until there was a successful re -entry, and if the astronauts burned up on re -entry, then that was not considered a successful mission, and it's the same with missionaries.

51:19

There's a period of preparation, there's a launch, there's an operating time through the mission, and then there's a need to bring those people home and bring them all the way home.

51:31

In fact, I wanted to ask you something about that when we return. We have to go to our midway break right now. I'll ask the question to start with, and you could think about it and respond when we get back, but for some reason,

51:44

I immediately started to think about police officers, police officers who very often are dealing on a daily basis with people that are liars, people that are dangerous, and all those kinds of the worst elements of behavior that you can think of, and they come to develop, but of course,

52:09

I'm not broad -brushing, and the reason why I know this is a phenomenon is because police officers have told me this, that many police officers develop a distrust for everyone.

52:19

I mean, they develop a distrust for their spouses and their neighbors. They are ready to think the worst of them, and of course, like I'm saying,

52:29

I'm not broad -brushing, but this is a phenomenon that does exist, and I'm wondering if this could be a reality amongst missionaries who may be in certain areas of the globe where the people surrounding them are using them just to get financial and physical help from these missionaries, and they may often lie to them.

52:54

They may often steal from them. They may have zero interest in spiritual matters but are just faking conversions and so on, and so the missionaries may wind up feeling that way in regard to everyone around them as well, but I'll have you answer that when we come back from the break.

53:12

If anybody else would like to join us, we do have several people waiting to have their questions asked and answered, but if anybody else would like to get online, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. God willing, we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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01:01:48

Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the Pastor's Study every

01:01:53

Saturday from 12 noon to 1 pm Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am

01:02:04

.com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions.

01:02:12

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon

01:02:18

Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study, because everyone needs a pastor. And please register as soon as possible if you'd like to attend the

01:02:26

Iron Shepherds Iron Pastor's Luncheon, featuring our guest speaker Bill Shishko, whose voice you just heard.

01:02:33

Bill Shishko, who is the regional home missionary for Reformation Metro New York. He's also on the faculty at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

01:02:43

It's a free event, as I said earlier, and if you'd like to register, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:02:50

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line. This is for Thursday, October 26th, 11 am to 2 pm at the

01:03:00

Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall. Our guest of honor will be

01:03:05

Steve Bloom, who is a Pennsylvania State Representative, and he's also a candidate for Congress.

01:03:12

And every pastor that attends, or every man, I should say, in leadership, whether it's a pastor, elder, deacon, parachurch organization leader, you will receive a sack filled with brand new books from most of the major Christian publishers in the

01:03:27

United States and the United Kingdom. So I hope to see your registrations coming in soon, and I look forward to seeing many of you again, and I look forward to meeting many of you for the first time on Thursday, October 26th, from 11 am to 2 pm at the

01:03:43

Iron Trip and Zion Radio Free Pastor's Luncheon. And before I return to our discussion,

01:03:48

I just have a couple of more announcements to make from sponsors that are having special events as well.

01:03:56

We have on November 17th and the 18th, we have the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals having their annual

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Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania.

01:04:10

The theme is for Still Our Ancient Foe, and that is obviously a line from Martin Luther's classic hymn,

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A Mighty Fortress, and Our Ancient Foe is a reference, obviously, to Satan. The keynote speakers are

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Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant.

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If you'd like to register for this event, go to AllianceNet .org, AllianceNet .org,

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click on Events, and then click on Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology. And coming up in January, from the 17th through the 20th, the

01:04:46

G3 Conference returns to Atlanta, Georgia. The 17th is exclusively a Spanish -speaking edition of the conference, and from the 18th through the 20th, the conference will exclusively be in the

01:04:57

English language. And the theme of the conference is Knowing God, a Biblical Understanding of Discipleship.

01:05:03

Speakers include Stephen Lawson, Votie Baucom, Phil Johnson, Keith Getty, H .B.

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Charles, Jr., Tim Challies, Josh Bice, James White, Tom Askell, Anthony Methenia, Michael Kruger, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, Martha Peace, and Justin Peters.

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If you'd like to register for the G3 Conference, go to G3Conference .com, G3Conference .com,

01:05:28

and whenever you hear about an event on Iron Troupe and Zion Radio, if you contact the organization running that event, whether to register or to find out more information, please always remember to tell those organizations that you heard about those events from Chris Arnzen on Iron Troupe and Zion Radio.

01:05:43

And last but not least, now is the uncomfortable time of the program where I have to rattle my tin cup and beg you for money.

01:05:53

For the longest time, for many years, I refused to make any public appeals for donations, and the advertisers that have been keeping

01:06:02

Iron Troupe and Zion Radio on the air have pled with me to make these public appeals because we have reached very urgent times in regard to finances.

01:06:13

If you want this program to remain on the air, if you love it, if you listen to it every day, if you love the topics and the guests, then please consider donating to Iron Troupe and Zion Radio by going to the website,

01:06:24

IronTroupeandZionRadio .com, IronTroupeandZionRadio .com, click on support, and you'll be given a mailing address where you can mail a check made payable to Iron Troupe and Zion Radio for any amount that you choose to give.

01:06:37

And as I try to remember to remind you every day, please never, ever, ever siphon money out of your local giving to your local church where you are a member.

01:06:47

If you're not a member of a local church that you need to repent of that, you need to find a Bible -believing church and become submissive to the elders there because that is your biblical duty to do so.

01:07:00

And so you must do that, and please never siphon money out of your giving to that church, and never take food off of your family's dinner table if you're struggling to make ends meet.

01:07:10

Those two things are commands of God, providing for your home and providing for your church.

01:07:17

Supporting Iron Troupe and Zion Radio is not a command of God, but if you are blessed above and beyond your ability to support your church and your home, and you have extra finances that you're looking to spend in a fruitful way, then please consider donating to Iron Troupe and Zion Radio.

01:07:35

If you'd like to advertise with us, whatever it is, whether you're advertising your church, your parachurch, your business, your corporation, your professional practice, if you're a lawyer, a doctor, or a dentist, whether you're just having a special event that you want to promote, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:07:52

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put advertising in the subject line. We could surely use your advertising dollars to help keep

01:08:00

Iron Troupe and Zion Radio on the air. As long as whatever it is you're advertising is compatible with the theology expressed on Iron Troupe and Zion Radio, we would love to speak with you about advertising.

01:08:10

It doesn't have to be exactly what I believe, but it has to be compatible. I can't militate against the theology of this program.

01:08:19

And now we are back with our guests today, who are David Wetus, the

01:08:26

Executive Director of Serving Leaders Ministries, and Jim Rhodes, a missionary veteran with over 40 years of experience in the mission field, and we are discussing growing in ministry, leading courageously, and transitioning well.

01:08:40

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:08:47

Before we go to any of our listeners, I would like you to pick up where we left off. I had that question for you.

01:08:54

If what I said was in any way applicable to a missionary, I was bringing up the scenario that I have heard from police officers myself, that there is a syndrome or phenomenon among many police officers where they become very distrustful of those around them because of the fact that they live day to day, very often depending upon where they are geographically, obviously, but many of them not only are dealing with dishonest people every day, but also very dangerous people, and that could be the very same case with missionaries.

01:09:28

If you could tell us about, is there a similar phenomenon with missionaries? Are either of you guys there?

01:09:39

Yeah, yeah, we're still here. So yeah, yeah, it is a very similar situation that we encounter, and some of the root causes are the same, and that is that it's easy when you're serving others, either in the military or on the police or in the fire department, or as a missionary or as a pastor.

01:10:05

When God has put you in a place where you're serving others, it's very easy to see the evil in the world, and it's important at that point that you are in, as you just mentioned,

01:10:22

Chris, that you are a part of a Church family, and I mean that you're a member, you know, that you've connected yourself to a growing body of believers.

01:10:33

My wife, Barbara, and I are members at God's Grace Bible Church in Melbourne, Pennsylvania, and our pastor there,

01:10:39

John Tripp, is very used to saying that we are all recovering sin addicts, all of us, and we need each other in that process to point us back and remind us of the mercies of God, because all of us have dealt with areas in our lives and sin in our lives, and we need our brothers and sisters and our

01:11:08

Church families to come alongside us and help us walk together. This business of following Christ is not an individual thing.

01:11:17

We were not called to do it on our own, you know, me and Jesus, we were called to do it together with a

01:11:24

Church family. Great, and one of the things that you brought up earlier, which is something that is becoming more and more of a very difficult situation for churches, and that is the issue of homosexuality, and, of course, you have churches that are, in this day and age,

01:11:50

I'm sure you have pastors and leaders who are very nervous, some might even be as far as terrified, as to how to go about disciplinary action when there is an unrepentant situation among them, or other issues that might involve the

01:12:08

Church being set up for a very serious lawsuit of some kind, but we have a very litigious society, it seems, that goes hand in hand with homosexuality and homosexual activists.

01:12:23

If you could tell us something about that situation, do you help churches, do you help guide them through not only biblically and compassionately and lovingly approaching this subject, but also perhaps equipping them to be protective of the flock, not to be subject to the authorities at hand in our government and so forth that may wind up one day robbing a church of everything that it possesses, other than eternal life, of course, nobody can take that away from us, but if you could comment on that issue.

01:13:06

Yeah, you know, you're raising a very, very powerful and complicated issue today, because there's so many facets of that.

01:13:14

So one of the first places I start in terms of equipping a church is trying to understand sexual brokenness generally.

01:13:23

What does it mean to be sexually broken? Most of us are in some aspects, some ways, and when we talk about ideology of same -sex attraction, there's a host of factors that contribute to that.

01:13:36

I do not ascribe to this mantra today or this politically correct idea that people are born this way and that this is a genetic thing that people are just driven to.

01:13:48

In fact, most of the people on the other side of homosexuality, those who would say that it's a normal behavior actually recognize that.

01:14:01

The media doesn't recognize that at this point, but even the experts on the other side will say there's fluidity in sexuality.

01:14:09

But one of the things I try to help churches do is understand how do some people develop same -sex attraction based on some of the backgrounds, some of the factors that take place in people's lives, including abuse, not only limited to that, and then to be able to respond to that in a compassionate and biblical way, and those are not mutually contradictory.

01:14:35

So that's one aspect of it. From a legal perspective, churches really do have to walk a fine line, and we do, as well as I've got resources for ministry leaders and pastors and churches, if they want to really protect themselves legally, one of the first ways to do it is to really take a look at the bylaws that you have and to revise them to make sure that they reflect accurately the values of the church, the biblical values of the church.

01:15:02

But that's a wide subject, Chris, that if people are interested in that, they can contact us at servingleaders .org,

01:15:12

and we can put them in touch with the right people to help advise on that topic. Now, if you wouldn't mind, though, because you brought up something that's a very controversial issue, a very fascinating issue, an issue that I'm sure there will be many scoffing and mocking and rejecting out of hand what you are describing as causes for homosexuality, could you please at least guide us through some of them?

01:15:43

Because now that you've got our interest up, because that is a question of the ages.

01:15:49

There are people who are even in the same pew of the same church who may disagree or just be baffled by this.

01:15:59

You know, some of us wonder sometimes if they're—and I'm not saying this is a correct way of thinking—but some of us wonder sometimes when you see someone that you knew as a young, young child acting in a manner that is more reflective of the opposite gender that they happen to have, and then they grow up to be actively involved in homosexuality, you say to yourself, well,

01:16:25

I wonder if this person was born that way? You know, how did that, you know, why did that child always behave in a feminine way, if it's a boy, or a masculine way if it's a girl, and then wind up to prove the suspicion was correct?

01:16:39

You know, these are things that baffle, I think, most of us. Yeah, you know,

01:16:44

Chris, I think let me say it this way. I think sexuality and development of sexuality is a very complex field, and it surprises me how the secular approach to this is very, very monolithic.

01:16:59

You know, basically, you're born this way, and that's the way it is. You have no choice, when in fact, there are hosts of factors that take place in a person's life that can influence a person to develop same -sex attraction.

01:17:13

I'll give you an example. You know, it's not, it's a very common example. I've worked with a lot of people who have unwanted same -sex attraction.

01:17:21

You know, a person who has a very dismissive, harsh, abusive father.

01:17:28

Let me actually back up and just say it this way. Here's sort of a elevator speech of some development of same -sex attraction.

01:17:37

Same -sex attraction can be a longing for maleness that gets sexualized. How does that longing for maleness take place?

01:17:45

A young boy who is rejected or abused or has a distant relationship with a father longs for a male figure in his life.

01:17:53

There's an innate longing for that. Maybe he has an effeminate characteristic.

01:17:59

That does not mean in any sense that he's homosexual at all, but maybe he's got an effeminate characteristic, or he's not good at sports, and he's rejected by other boys.

01:18:07

He's not chosen for the team. That has an impact on him. He ascribes meaning to that.

01:18:14

Later on, maybe he's more hanging out more with girls in the neighborhood, or he's with his mother more, and there's a feminine kind of influence on his life, and he looks at boys through the kitchen window.

01:18:29

It's called kitchen window syndrome. He looks at boys through the window, and he sees them playing football, and he's wanting to be with them, but he's also afraid of them, but there's this silent longing for maleness and male connection.

01:18:43

Well, when he hits puberty, that which is different from him can become erotic.

01:18:50

The exotic can become erotic, meaning with normal development, boys look at girls.

01:18:56

They say, oh, cooties. They're different. I don't like them. When they hit puberty, they look at the girls, and they go, oh, she's looking nice.

01:19:02

I'm attracted to her. For the pre -homosexual boy who's developmentally been through some of these experiences, he's looking at other boys, and they feel alien and different to him, and so he develops an attraction.

01:19:16

There's an attraction that he feels, and it's understandable in some ways that someone would say, oh,

01:19:23

I've always been different. I've always felt this way, and therefore, I'm born that way, but that's a wrong conclusion.

01:19:31

These feelings this attraction because the exotic, that which is different, has become erotic, and so there are, and there's a host of other pathways.

01:19:42

So, for example, sexual abuse and trauma, beliefs about self, peer pressure, cultural influences, relationship with moms, family influences, personality, all of these factors work together in certain ways to develop for a person to start to develop same -sex attraction.

01:20:01

The conclusion, I'm born this way, is erroneous, and so I think the secular media have really foisted this idea, and it's been popularized, but it's simply not true, and to help somebody, they have to understand what's their past, what meaning have they ascribed to their experiences in the past, and how has

01:20:28

God created them? What I try to convey in my seminars is God has given women a gift of femaleness.

01:20:35

God has given men the gift of maleness, and in terms of being able to accept that and to feel good about it, as opposed to feeling embarrassed about it or ashamed of it, and so those are some of the factors.

01:20:52

I mean, again, you're asking a huge topic. I do a four -hour seminar on it, and you can't do it justice in a few minutes, but that's a little bit of an overview.

01:21:00

Yeah, perhaps we'll have you back sometime when that will be the exclusive topic that we address.

01:21:06

Just out of curiosity before we depart that issue, I have some friends in the ministry and who are theologians who are very conservative, who are thoroughgoing

01:21:18

Calvinists, who are very opposed to the modern leftist agenda in regard to defending homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle and as a legitimate and equally moral lifestyle, etc.,

01:21:39

etc., but at the same time, they say because of the fact that we believe, as Reformed Christians, in total depravity, that they don't rule out that someone may be born with a proclivity towards that particular sin.

01:21:59

Like, for instance, in Psalm 58 .3, we read, "...the

01:22:05

wicked are estranged from the womb. These who speak lies go astray from birth."

01:22:13

And you have, in Romans 1 .24, when you are talking specifically about homosexuality, we read, "...therefore

01:22:24

God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them."

01:22:33

And it seems to imply that he's turning them over to lusts that they already had.

01:22:39

So, if you could, do you have any comment? I know that we're not going to discuss this for the entire show here, but I was just curious about your approach to that, because these are not people who are defending that state of being, if you will, because someone may have been born with that proclivity.

01:22:54

They'll say that it's still a damnable sin that must be repented of. There is no license to remain that way, just as there is no license to continue lying or doing anything else that we may do as totally depraved individuals before we're born again.

01:23:10

But how do you respond to that? Yeah, I mean, I think I would say that whether I have a proclivity towards something or not,

01:23:19

I'm called to walk. I have my heart transformed by Christ, and I'm called to walk according to His Word.

01:23:26

And so maybe I have a proclivity. Look, there are heterosexuals, let me just put it this way, heterosexuals, have a proclivity to have multiple relationships.

01:23:38

And I say a big, so what? That doesn't mean I go to do whatever I have a proclivity to do. I restrain myself in accordance with what the

01:23:47

Word of God commands me. So it doesn't matter whether I have a proclivity toward it or not. What I want to do is obey

01:23:53

God and ask Him to heal me deep inside. And I would just say, just to ground this out, when we talk about this kind of thing, it's brokenness.

01:24:05

There's woundedness inside. This stuff arises from woundedness. So our response is compassion, and to compassion for the wounds.

01:24:14

And yet, just like anything else, we want to call people to repent and live with their hearts before the

01:24:21

Lord, being transformed by the grace and power of Christ. And we're going to be going to our final break right now.

01:24:29

And if anybody would like to join us, and I'm sorry that there are still some people that have been patiently waiting, or at least

01:24:35

I hope they've been patiently waiting to have their questions asked and answered. We will go to you when we come back from the break.

01:24:40

But if anybody else would like to join them, please do so now before we run out of time. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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And one more brief note, after a very long absence tomorrow, we are going to be joined,

01:32:06

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Wars and Rumors of Wars. So make sure you set your alarm, or mark your calendar, or tack a post -it note to your refrigerator, or however you remind yourself of things, that tomorrow,

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Gary DeMar, the long -awaited interview with Gary DeMar, who has not been on this program probably in 10 years, perhaps a little less, but it's been pretty long.

01:32:35

And we look forward to having Gary return to the program. Now we are in our final 25 minutes or so of the program with David Wetus, Executive Director of Serving Leaders Ministries, and also

01:32:51

Jim Rhodes, a missionary veteran with over 40 years of experience on the mission field, and we're talking about growing in ministry, leading courageously, and transitioning well.

01:33:01

Perhaps we will start with you again, David. How do you equip ministry leaders to lead courageously, and then you, of course, can explain how you can help them transition well?

01:33:19

Well, I think one of the starting points is, what's the foundation for ministry?

01:33:27

What is it that is their foundation for ministry? Is their ministry their identity, or is their identity in Christ?

01:33:38

And is their ministry something that they're stewarding for Christ and following Him, or is their ministry a tool for their own affirmation or their own personal advancement?

01:33:53

And some of the issues that come up for ministry leaders is they're very talented, they're very charismatic, they're very gifted in their field with people, and sometimes their motivations are hidden.

01:34:09

Oftentimes our motivations are hidden from our own eyes, and so it's really important to establish what's that foundation for ministry?

01:34:19

Living out of the fullness of Christ in me, and knowing who He made me to be, as opposed to me getting identity from the affirmation, from my preaching, from my counseling, from my interactions, or something else.

01:34:35

So that's a starting point, and at the conference next week, Jim and I are going to be going into much more depth on that whole topic.

01:34:45

And that's at the conference in Carbondale? Yes. Okay. I'm sorry,

01:34:51

Jim, go ahead. Yeah, this is Jim here. Yeah, another aspect of that training and caring that we're going to be dealing with next week is something that you touched on,

01:35:02

Chris, when you talked about police officers, and law enforcement, and fire officials, and military.

01:35:10

And that is, people that go into service, like pastors, and missionaries, and those folks, often encounter something called compassion fatigue, which is sort of what you were referring to.

01:35:24

The part about seeing the evil, that's a part of the compassion fatigue. And Dave, why don't you talk a little bit about, you know, share just a minute or two about what compassion fatigue is, and what are the primary things that contribute to it?

01:35:41

Compassion fatigue is more of a technical word that normally people use the word burnout, but compassion fatigue is comprised of three elements.

01:35:51

There's primary stress, secondary traumatic stress, and burnout. And just briefly, and pastors underestimate this impact on them, but primary traumatic stress really is when you're an eyewitness, when you personally experience trauma.

01:36:09

For example, you're sitting at the bedside of somebody who's dying. Some pastors that I know who operate in the inner cities have been, you know, near gunshot wounds, things like that.

01:36:21

Secondary stress is what we hear or see through the eyes of others. When I sit and talk with someone who has been abused sexually,

01:36:31

I'm not there when it happened. It might have happened 20 years ago, but I am absorbing the pain.

01:36:38

I'm hearing the pain. I'm visualizing what's taking place. And one of the things we try to help pastors do is understand that that has an impact, and you have to be able to handle that in a very appropriate way, a very healthy way, and understand that over time, being exposed to primary and secondary traumatic stress can very much result in cumulative kind of burnout, physical and emotional exhaustion, loss of hope, loss of focus, loss of, you know, a realistic expectation of what happens in ministry.

01:37:17

And it can result in cynicism. It can result in depression, anxiety.

01:37:24

The term burnout, which refers to this emotional exhaustion and depletion of energy, really does overtake us on a gradual basis.

01:37:34

It typically does not happen overnight. It happens over time, and what we try to do is get pastors to really tune into that and be sensitized to that, so they can be a good steward of their ministry.

01:37:47

And that's really what it's about, is God's given each of us gifts, and we need to steward them, as opposed to use them as our own tools or use them for our own self.

01:37:59

Well, now let's go to... What are some of the signs and symptoms that a pastor, missionary, police officer might be experiencing compassion fatigue?

01:38:11

Sure. Exhaustion, cynicism. You become cynical at what you once took so much pride and joy in.

01:38:23

You start to overlook your own needs. You have presence of negative emotions, such as depression, anxiety, irritability, disillusionment, and sometimes that can lead to boundary violations, loss of a moral compass, so that, again, we all need to be sensitized to what's going on.

01:38:49

We need to be able to withdraw to Christ and have time in solitude and silence and be alone, as opposed to getting caught up in the busyness of ministry.

01:39:00

And you all know how busy you can get. If you really want to be busy, you can work 80, 90 hours a week in ministry, because you're never finished.

01:39:11

So that's another area that we'll be addressing at the conference next week, is the idea of avoiding pastoral burnout and flameout.

01:39:20

Surely that couldn't happen to a pastor or an elder, could it? Oh, never, never, never.

01:39:31

Chris, I think you were going to jump in maybe with a question before when Jim was talking. Oh, I'm just going to go to some of the listener questions whenever you guys are ready for them.

01:39:42

Yeah, we're ready. Okay, first of all, we have an anonymous listener who says,

01:39:52

I have a Christian friend who some time ago declared that he was starting to attend a

01:39:58

Jewish temple so that he could get in touch with his Jewish roots. This seemed odd to me because they don't worship

01:40:06

Jesus. It appeared to me that because the land of Israel and the Jewish people were considered God's chosen people above all others,

01:40:13

Genesis 12, 13, I will bless those who bless you and him who dishonors you

01:40:18

I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed, that he wanted in on the blessing by declaring his

01:40:27

Jewishness. In light of Romans chapter 9 and 11 and Ephesians chapter 2, etc.,

01:40:32

God's chosen people must accept Jesus as Messiah and Christ. As Jesus says, no one can come to the

01:40:39

Father except through me in order to truly worship God. What do you think about this? Is this a contradiction of proper worship of God?

01:40:47

And by the way, your Jewish friend has never been to a Jewish temple because it doesn't exist.

01:40:53

He may be going to a synagogue, but he hasn't been going to a temple. Anyway, the AD 70 destruction of the temple is what

01:40:58

I'm talking about. But if you could comment on this, I know this may be a bit off of our subject, but it's also connected obviously to,

01:41:08

David, your own testimony as being a Jewish believer. Perhaps you have some insight on this.

01:41:16

I would say that if a person would like to go to temple or to go to a synagogue and find out a little bit about what is going on there, and what, you know,

01:41:29

I recently went to an Orthodox Jewish service in a nursing home because my father was in a nursing home, and it was fascinating to see culturally what's going on and religiously what's going on.

01:41:44

And I personally don't have a problem with somebody who wants to explore that.

01:41:51

Obviously, just like in Christianity, you have a range of religion.

01:41:57

You have a range of, you know, ultra -leftist, you know, conservative theology.

01:42:03

In Judaism, you have the same thing. So I think your friend needs to sort of understand that, and understand that there's going to be some synagogues that do not at all believe

01:42:14

Scripture, and then there's going to be some Orthodox synagogues that they're very, very literal.

01:42:22

And just a quick story. When my grandmother died, I was the first to arrive at the gravesite.

01:42:29

The rabbi who was burying her looked at me and said, oh, he said, you're the traitor. You're the one who's rejected our religion.

01:42:37

And I said, rabbi, with all due respect, my guess is that I believe Scripture more than virtually anybody in your synagogue, because you don't even accept

01:42:47

Scripture. And he sort of closed his mouth. He didn't have much more to say, because he knew

01:42:52

I was right. Yeah, and wouldn't you say that... Go ahead, go ahead.

01:42:59

I was just going to say, though, don't you have to be clear about making a distinction between observing someone else's religion's worship service, or their gathering, to perhaps just learn more about it, so you can be more effective in your witness for the gospel, so that you can know more about them.

01:43:25

If you really care and love someone, care about someone and love them, you may want to go that extra mile to learn where they are coming from.

01:43:35

And there's a distinction between that and going to a non -Christian house of worship and worshipping there, because you're not worshipping the triune

01:43:45

God in a synagogue or a you might be privately, but the people that around you there who are worshipping, they are not worshipping

01:43:55

Jesus Christ, and they're not worshipping the Trinity. So isn't there a distinction that has to be made? Sure, one can make that distinction.

01:44:03

I would say, if I was sitting in one of those places, I would be praying to God. Whether there or not, it's a different story.

01:44:12

But God is here in me and with me, and I'm worshipping him. But I understand your point.

01:44:19

Yeah, as both of you are getting at, the issue at hand in the question is really one of motive.

01:44:27

Why does this young man want to do this? There could be very valid and God -honoring reasons why he would want to do it.

01:44:36

On the other hand, as you mentioned, he could be going there with wrong ideas and wrong motives, and that points back,

01:44:44

Chris, to what you shared earlier about the need for everybody to not live in isolation, but to live as a part of a church family that's watching over you, that's interacting with you, and asking you, why do you want to do that?

01:45:00

You know, and holding you accountable, and mentoring and pastoring and shepherding you along.

01:45:08

Yes, and to give you an example of something that I have done and continue to do on occasion, that's not perhaps quite exactly what our listener is talking about, but whenever I have a family or a friend or a loved one who is

01:45:26

Roman Catholic or a member of a religion that is not my own, by the way I was raised Roman Catholic, I am a convert to not only biblical

01:45:35

Christianity, but historic Protestant and Reformed theology, but I will go to those churches, but I will not participate in the rites, rituals, and ceremonies that are specifically acts of worship.

01:45:54

I will not receive the Roman Catholic Mass, for instance. I will not pray along with those around me when they are praying, or especially if they are evoking

01:46:06

Mary and the Saints and things like that. I have been at a synagogue for a memorial service for a

01:46:17

Jewish individual, and I'll do things like that. I haven't yet been invited to a mosque or anything like that, but I would go to pay my respects, but I would not be actually participating in a specific rite, ritual, or ceremony that God would find offensive.

01:46:32

Does that make sense? Sure. Sounds like something

01:46:37

Jesus would do. Yeah, I believe so, although I have friends that disagree with me, that would refuse to go to those places, but I have not yet been convinced that that would be prohibited.

01:46:50

We have another listener. We have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who says,

01:47:02

Isn't it very important that pastors develop strong friendships and relationships with their colleagues in ministry outside of their own congregations?

01:47:12

There may be things that are going on because of those very congregations and the specific sins that are present there that it would make a world of difference should a pastor have a shoulder to lean on and someone to confide in very deep secrets that is not a part of that assembly that he is shepherding.

01:47:35

I think it's an excellent point, and I think pastors tend to be very isolated.

01:47:40

Many of them exist in silos and are isolated from other pastors, and oftentimes other churches and ministries are looked at from a competitive nature as opposed to a, as Paul says, we are members of one another.

01:47:57

And part of what Serving Leaders Ministries does is we host and we do pastor gatherings, ministry leader gatherings, where we get various clergy, and we try to say, look, we want to equip you, but we also want to connect you with each other.

01:48:13

So to have someone outside the congregation is a benefit. To have multiple colleagues and ministry leaders together, meeting together,

01:48:22

I think is a great benefit, and I encourage all ministry leaders to do that. And that's a big part of what

01:48:30

Dave and I are trying to do with the seminar, is to encourage those relationships. And I would affirm everything

01:48:37

Dave just said, but I would add to it that I think church leaders and church families need to consider a challenge here of, are we not as a church family called to a community that would allow a pastor to not have to live that way?

01:48:58

I mean, I'm fully aware of the reality, that's why Dave and I do what we do, but should we not, as a church family following the scriptures, are we not called to something more than leaving our pastors in that sort of isolation, should they not be a part of our family where they're not as isolated as that reality would be?

01:49:26

And how does that happen? I mean, that's a good question, I think, for churches and church leaders and pastors to wrestle with their church leaders over.

01:49:40

We have Christian in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know, what are the three or four top reasons that men consider leaving the ministry?

01:49:51

That's a great question.

01:49:58

I think that burnout is a major factor that people leave ministry.

01:50:06

Disillusionment, pain, hurt, betrayal. There are people who go through some very, very, very difficult, painful experiences.

01:50:17

I knew a missionary couple that found, I'll leave country, they worked in that church for 30 years, and at the end, people in that church then betrayed that couple, and they were basically, they had to leave.

01:50:41

You talked about heartbreaking and trying to help somebody through, you know, an understandably bitter heart about that, trying to help them come to grips with what happened to them.

01:50:55

So there's burnout, there is moral failure that takes place, obviously, and, you know, one of the things we're going to be talking about is transitioning in ministry, and, you know, it's not my ministry, it's

01:51:12

God's ministry, and so the attitude needs to be, God, where are you calling me? And maybe

01:51:17

God calls you into a particular church or ministry, and then you transition to another position, and it sometimes, it may be even a demotion, at least from a worldly perspective, and yet when

01:51:34

God's calling you into another area, that's the right thing to do.

01:51:41

Jim, do you want to add to that at all, in terms of why you leave? Yeah, I would just add that I would just add that in direct answer to your questioner's question, your listener's question, most mission agencies, and many that I'm familiar with, conduct exit interviews when their people leave, and those exit interviews are very revealing, and that's one of the questions, why are you leaving the ministry?

01:52:06

And there's a runaway answer, and the runaway answer, there's not even a close second.

01:52:13

It's not moral failure that is the biggest reason, it's not the difficulty of the mission field, though they're difficult, it's not money or lack of provision.

01:52:27

The number one reason why people leave is they can't get along with the people they're serving with, which is tragic, because Jesus said that the lost around us are going to know that we're really following Him by how radically we love one another, and this has to be addressed.

01:52:54

We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who says, you mentioned that burnout is a main reason why many pastors consider leaving the ministry.

01:53:06

What are the main reasons for burnout, and how can you prevent it? Burnout arises from a number of things, which it doesn't take a brain surgeon to understand.

01:53:22

Failure to rest, failure to set up good boundaries in ministry. In other words, there is a separation between your personal life and your ministry life, attending to your family, attending to your own needs, which oftentimes is translated into being selfish.

01:53:41

So, really trying to live a balanced life, spending more time with God, spending more time with God than doing for God.

01:53:51

That would be another major factor, because oftentimes a ministry leader's life is filled with busyness and filled with activity, as opposed to spending time alone with God, as Christ did.

01:54:08

You withdrew to quiet places. So, those are some of the major factors that contribute to burnout, and the answer to burnout is really the opposite of what causes it.

01:54:19

Being with Him, being refreshed, living out of a Christ -filled life, a Christ -filled abundant life, as opposed to our own strength.

01:54:30

So, there's, you know, Jim, you want to jump in there, but those are some of the initial thoughts that I have.

01:54:36

Yeah, to your listener who asked that, that's a really great question, and I would just say, why does a house burn down or fall down?

01:54:46

Often it's a problem, as Dave mentioned earlier, if you look at a house that's fallen down, it usually has something to do with the foundation.

01:54:55

And Dave mentioned earlier, and that's one of the things we go over at the beginning of the seminar next week is, how do you, how do you, when you're starting in ministry, how do you lay a foundation that you can build on with confidence that keeps you away from these things?

01:55:13

And as Dave mentioned, that foundation begins with seeing ministry not as something

01:55:20

I do for me. It's just not about me. I'd like it to be about me. I'm that human, but it's not about me.

01:55:27

It's about Jesus and his kingdom. We don't need to be making much about me or my church or my whatever.

01:55:32

We're supposed to make much about Jesus, and if that's our foundation, if we get into ministry and that's the foundation that we build on, we're going to go a long way on that foundation towards avoiding burnout.

01:55:47

Yeah, there seems to be polar opposite ways that pastors are treated by their congregations, and obviously there's a lot of areas in between.

01:55:57

You have, on the one hand, the extreme of idol worship that is plagued, that is a plague in the word of faith movement and other similar kinds of aberrant theologies.

01:56:14

I mean, it could be even existing in a theologically sound church that's just got a very unbiblical approach to how to view your authorities in the church.

01:56:27

Or you have the people who are turned into rock stars, and they are treated like they are the

01:56:36

Hollywood elite and so on. But then you have probably what is more common on the spectrum. You have people who think that a pastor's job is easy.

01:56:47

They think that because of the fact that they may be only there once a week on Sunday morning, that that's all the guy does is he speaks for a half hour to an hour every

01:56:57

Sunday, and then he's finished working, and they don't realize that he is responsible for the souls of men, women, and children over whom he is a under -shepherd.

01:57:08

But a lot of these problems, I would imagine, are caused by the unbiblical way that congregants view their pastors and their elders.

01:57:20

Yes, absolutely. And again, when you start in ministry, you have got to have a firm foundation in your own walk with Christ in order to be able to steer your way through both of those extremes.

01:57:35

Because on the one hand, the extreme you talked about about hero worship, that was going on in the

01:57:41

Church of Corinth. Remember Paul commented on that in 1 Corinthians 2. And his answer to that was, he asked in 1

01:57:48

Corinthians 4, verse 20, he said, how are people supposed to view pastors and leaders?

01:57:54

He said, we're common oarsmen, and we're slaves, bond slaves, which the

01:58:01

Greek word there refers to the guys that rode the Greek boats, that were slaves in the Greek boats, and chained to their oars.

01:58:08

You know, the idea there is the idea we were just talking about, that it's not my boat, it's

01:58:14

Jesus' boat. And I'm just one of the oarsmen rowing Jesus' boat. And if you understand that, then you're not going to fall into that hero worship or allow that to happen in a ministry that you're leading, that you're stewarding for Jesus.

01:58:30

And on the other side, when, you know, Paul actually continues in that very passage, just because the

01:58:36

Corinthians were notorious for picking at him. And he said, it's a small thing to me that I should be examined by you or by any human court.

01:58:46

He said, the one who examines you is the Lord. And when you're that firm in your foundation, you'll be able to endure the hardships, the second set of hardships, and you'll be able to have proper boundaries so people might press in on them.

01:59:04

You'll be able to hold them and respond in love to those misunderstandings that you were talking about,

01:59:14

Chris. And we are now out of time. We're out of time now, and I just want to make sure that our listeners have your contact information, servingleaders .org.

01:59:23

Servingleaders .org is your website. Any other contact information that you get or give? They can always contact me.

01:59:30

When they go to the website, they can find our phone number. They can also find our email addresses, rather than giving them right now.

01:59:39

Great, that's fine. That's fine. I want to thank you both for being on the program. I look forward to you both returning to the program.

01:59:47

I want to thank everybody who listened, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater