October 11, 2017 Show with David Wiedis AND Jim Rhodes on “Growing in Ministry: Leading Courageously & Transitioning Well”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio

platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

Now here's our host Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Lake City, Florida.

And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming and iron sharpens iron radio

.com.

This is Chris Arndt and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday this 11th

day of October 2017.

Well, I'm delighted to have on the program Two men who have never been on iron sharpens iron radio before.

We have David Weedus a Jewish believer in Christ Jesus committed to

reform theology and he's the executive director of serving leaders ministries and Joining him

is Jim Rhodes a missionary veteran with over 40 years experience on the mission field and they are both

going to be discussing Growing in ministry leading courageously and transitioning well.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome both David Weedus and Jim Rhodes to iron sharpens iron

radio for the very first time.

Greetings gentlemen.

Great.

Great.

And just to let you know that you too can speak up whenever you Have something that

you'd like to say you don't have to wait for me to call on you.

This is always a little bit more difficult when you have two people on the phone.

And it would be a good idea if every time you said something you identified yourself your voices sound pretty much the same to me.

So.

First of all before I get your personal testimonies because we usually like to Start our program when we

have new people that have never been on before.

We'd like to have them give an abbreviated version of their testimony of how they came to saving faith in Christ.

But before we do that.

David tell us something about serving leaders.

Ministries history that is

designed and created to come alongside ministry leaders and

Deacons elders missionaries anybody who is strategic in the church.

And it was formed.

I actually we're celebrating our 10th year anniversary now and Really what we do is we provide

counseling for pastors and ministry leaders.

We also do some ministry coaching.

We do a lot of training and seminars.

We help pastors go on retreats.

Sometimes we will lead retreats, but we also have our people have

fallen on retreat and or vacations.

So basically the idea is because so many people in

their strategic We thought I thought to myself who serves those who serves so that.

That's how that well sounds like a great

organization.

In fact, I don't know if you're going to be available on Thursday October 26th, but if you are

I'm having a pastor's luncheon here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

About a hundred pastors are expected to be there and the featured speaker is bill shishkoe of the Orthodox

Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square New York who is now regional home missionary for

the Reformation Metro, New York, which is a organization sponsored by the Orthodox

Presbyterian denomination.

And I would love to have you out there if you're able to.

I don't know you.

I know you don't don't have to make a decision right now, but it would be great for you to get up for five minutes before bill speaks and

Give a presentation and have your material on hand at the pastor's luncheon.

I'm right here in Pennsylvania.

So I know that you are too and that's.

I don't know how far away you are from Carlisle, but We would love to have you out there if you're able to make it.

Now you happen to be just.

I mean, it's only about an hour and a half or so away.

Yeah, great.

Well.

If you can make it I'd love to have you there and you can bring as much as your Material and if you have a banner or anything, we would

love to have you hang it up.

And you could speak before our keynote speaker.

We're also having the State representative of Pennsylvania Steve Bloom who's running for Congress.

He's going to be saying a few words.

He's our guest of honor that day and Steve is a very strong Christian

outspoken Christian unashamed of his faith.

It's always great to meet somebody like him who isn't just pandering to a specific

Special interest group or lobby.

He really means what he Says and he brings his faith

Very much Into the forefront of his political career, so it's always great to

Be a part of anything that Steve is a part of.

And before I have you give your testimony I completely forgot to introduce you to my co -host in the studio Reverend buzz Taylor.

Yeah, he told you guys to speak up and he won't let me do that.

That's gonna be on the show with you.

Thanks for joining us and.

And So.

David you are a Jewish believer and one of the things that I always find

fascinating is When I meet somebody who is a Jewish believer who is

in love with the Reformed faith and intricately a part of that.

Committed to it even in spite of some slanderous things that have been

said about the Reformed faith by our.

Misinformed.

Brothers in Christ who happen to be From a more dispensational or messianic backgrounds, and

I know that not all of them do this either.

I don't want to broad brush them.

But it's good to see somebody who Still is following their convictions from the

scriptures.

Tell us about your testimony and how.

What kind of a religious atmosphere you were raised in.

Because just because you're Jewish doesn't mean that Not all Jewish people have a cookie -cutter story about

how they came to embrace Christ.

But and also tell us about how you came to understand and embrace Reformed theology as well.

Sure, I grew up in a

Jewish as more chicken soup Jew rather than very religious.

My grandfather emigrated over here from Lithuania many many

years ago wanting

to know who God was and I really wasn't taught Very much in my

family about God, but I intuitively Internally just long to know God.

One of my earliest memories as a matter of fact Chris was that I was about three years old.

I walked outside and that was in the day when planes actually wrote in the sky.

So I saw smoke in the sky.

And I thought God was writing to me, but the problem was I didn't know how to read.

You know come and tell me what God's saying and she came out there and at that point the smoke

had dissipated.

And I remember just being crushed because I wanted to know who God was I

was in.

I was actually in high school

meeting house in Freehold, New Jersey, which is where the

communion is.

Well, yes, the Battle of Mammoth took place and Molly Pitcher was so it was very historic place as I understand it.

Part of the Great Awakening took place in that area the graveyard and I picked it up and I walked out of the graveyard.

And I prayed this prayer now this sounds like an evangelical prayer, but I had never even heard this kind of prayer before.

But here's what I did.

I said God Whoever you are.

I want to know who you are.

And if you'll show me who you are if you reveal yourself to me I will give you my life and live my life for you

inside the meeting house the church and All I can tell you is what I

experienced and at the time I experienced this Tremendous heat come over my

body and tremendous peace.

Now I didn't know but you know, what happened was

God came came to me Gave me tremendous heat and peace and I just was transfixed for about 20

minutes.

I Went home that day.

Nobody was at my house.

People came to the door.

They were proselytizing asking me about Christ and I basically said look I'm a Jew my parents would kill

me if I converted no Thank you, and I sent them away and then that evening

before but had never shared the gospel with me.

Basically said and as he was speaking the same experience happened a guy it was

just impressed with his heat and peace and As I heard the gospel, I responded to it

and I gave my life to Christ at that point praise God and.

How did you eventually come to discover and embrace the reformed faith?

I went to a Southern Baptist Church.

I Then later went to a Methodist who was in various stream

friend of mine introduced me to ref

from Reformation theology and

Started to make sense to me and then I actually had

to admit a positional apologetics

and then I ultimately I joined a PCA Church and and

for for about 12 years was a PCA elder a ruling elder in a Presbyterian Church.

Wow.

Well, you've certainly got my co -hosts attention Reverend Buzz Taylor because one of his greatest

heroes of all time is Greg Bonson.

Yeah, and I'm in a PCA Church also.

And and not only that Chris I think you've got.

At least let him know that if we look out the window where we are sitting right now we can see Molly pitchers grave.

What does that have to do with anything was mentioning her earlier?

Oh, I don't know.

Somehow I must have gotten distracted in here in Molly pitcher.

Yeah.

Yes, Molly pitchers grave.

Or the grave of the woman that the community dubbed as Molly pitcher.

His is probably I don't know.

What do you say 300 yards from where I'm sitting?

Right here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

And.

Yeah, and.

Well, yeah, and I had the privilege by the way of meeting Greg Bonson as well when he was preaching in Brooklyn at a

Bible conference and one of the things that I still kick myself over to this very day.

Is that the pastor?

Hosting the conference gave me the opportunity to interview Greg Bonson

in his study for probably a half hour.

I recorded it and I lost the tape and Dr. Bonson went home to be

with the Lord a few years after that and so I never had my opportunity to Find that and air that

interview.

I always wanted to air that interview, but We also have as I announced

earlier on the program Jim Rhodes, why don't you give us your personal testimony of

salvation how you came about providentially to embrace the Lord Jesus Christ

and What kind of religious atmosphere you were raised in if any and etc and how you had a

burden to eventually become a missionary.

Change that was happening in our country at that time one of the driving things as a young man in my life

was to see it become significant and

you know, I thought that the way that that would happen was through becoming successful, you know gaining the American dream and

and as much as a high school student can gain those things as

a high school

student

in

the 1960s are black and white television set

up.

My family grew up as little churchgoers and

As a family and the only exposure we seem to

know and follow the people I saw on TV on the Billy Graham crusade and

When I was 16, I had the opportunity to attend one of

those that I knew at that time to Graham use on

TV and so one of the scriptures that that

Went through my mind as I went to and

that Jesus ever called he called pop don't be ashamed of me if I won't

be if I and and.

So when the invitation

was given

that night

and I stand

victim me and Significances

to

come

down and and that night no, but but I just

didn't want to be

first and no one went down.

And the music, you know, just as

I evangelist that night looked up into the stands.

I believe that there's one person I'm gonna

sing one more song for you.

And I just want you to know that you don't belong to the enemy anymore.

You belong to whoever you are you get up and come my older,

you know, I don't and

was like the ones I and

Platform getting ready to speak

with and

just telling him

that

he'd revealed himself and that he was worthy of my

trust in him and young man on the platform that night

was involved at the University of Maryland

and he got me involved in the

Circumstances to meet.

Dr. Bill Bright.

He challenged me to join the staff.

Praise God and.

Before we forget that I will Try to remember to announce these special events that you

guys are having in the near future, but I know that You're going to be

having an event.

Actually two events here in Pennsylvania one at the United Reformed Church

Classes meeting at the Carbondale United Reformed Church

Here in Carbondale, Pennsylvania and then in on November 4th, you're going to be Speaking at the

Providence Presbyterian Church in York, Pennsylvania but aren't you also going to be speaking at my friend drew

and again Berg's Congregation there at the West Sable Reformed Bible Church in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island.

Okay, I guess it was drew that told me about it and I assumed it was going to be happening at his congregation.

So tell us about the excuse me.

You know that's happened to us before.

No, I think it was.

Probably he was just telling me about this event the.

The.

Classes meeting that you are going to be having.

Tell us about what you are going to be speaking about there.

And is this open for the public or is this just for the United Reformed Church of North America pastors?

It's

every

few

months

we get together.

We get a bunch of pastors together trying to shepherd pastor's hearts and last year I thought it would be great to

get Jim involved and to share some of the wisdom that he has in terms of

leadership and.

And navigating through transitions because every every pastor From the time they start

to the time they retire is going through transition and really has to navigate

transitions with a lot of wisdom and.

There's challenges.

There's landmines along the way they have the potential to sabotage.

There's and so I thought I thought I would interview Jim on on the wisdom that he has and

so that's how that started and then.

So most of that our presentation is going to be me interviewing Jim on some of these topics and then

I'm going to be speaking.

Also, Jim's going to we're going to turn the tables and Jim's going to interview me on avoiding pastoral blank burnout and flameout.

Which is my word for for moral failure, but everybody I think knows what burnout is.

And so that's sort of the.

That's the the agenda.

That's going to be held at the Covenant United Reformed Church in Carbondale, Pennsylvania.

Is that right?

That's next Tuesday, October 17th between 1 and 5 p .m.

So it's gonna it's really going to be viewing him.

He'll be interviewing me and then we break up.

We have five topics.

We break them up with with each each time.

We're going to where people will really interact with the material rather than being lectured at with you

know.

With a fire hydrant the issues and then we do Q &A and

just really learn, you know.

Based on the

wisdom

that that

churches the pastors.

This is long before the days of cell phones and he was not allowed to share any of what he was.

He had amazing ministry there and then in Egypt and then as

oh, yeah, in

fact.

Yeah, in fact, I've got to eventually put you in touch with a member of

my own congregation David Glantz retired United

States Army Colonel David client glance who is one of the foremost experts on

the Soviet Union and Russia in the United States, he's written dozens of books on

Russia and the Soviet Union and.

Has.

Has a taught at the United States Army War College and so on.

He's a really fascinating Gentleman who is an usher at the congregation where I'm a member and it

was a really fascinating Discussion that we had an iron Sherpins iron radio.

But before I get into some of that with you Jim, I just want to make sure that I give our

listeners the contact information.

For the Covenant Reformed Church in Carbondale, Pennsylvania, the phone number is 5 7 0 2 8

2 6400 and once again, that's

area code 5 7 0 2 8 2 6400.

The website for the Covenant Reformed Church of Carbondale,

Pennsylvania.

Is and I have to enlarge it because I am at 55 years of age going rapidly blind.

It's covenant RC org covenant RC.

But tell us some of that expand upon what David just told us Jim.

During that cloud to

help reach a people for cry

before he shared with us who those people were except that they weren't the American people and.

So we began a prayerful search like Lord. Who are these people that you want us?

You help the gospel of your kingdom.

And shortly after we began praying had a gentleman showed up at our church and He was

Sharing about how he was doing a ministry behind the Iron Curtain going from underground

location.

Underground location.

Providing seminary training for pastors behind the Iron Curtain.

Couldn't do that, but I could do evangelism and discipleship training and.

And and I prayed about in a couple months later

that was beginning a ministry of evangelism and discipleship behind the Iron Curtain

that ground and

and we travel

traveling on a circuit among the major cities of the Soviet Union looking to open up campus

works and reach young people for Christ and.

It was amazing.

And one of the things that I learned from that whole it's pray

that God would open

it to appear to be closed.

We serve the one who can.

What we saw happen and I was there

and In

in Czechoslovakia, it

was never reported.

They fell.

Because they were opposed to the progress of the gospel among on the king of all kings.

In fact, very few Americans know that

there was

this happened.

On December 25th 1991 the Soviet Union died.

Wow.

And I know that you are not the scheduled speakers at the other event in November.

It's dr. Penny Freeman.

But can you tell us something about that event?

The theme is voices helping survivors of abuse find their voice at the Providence Presbyterian

Church in York, Pennsylvania.

Well, if anybody

wants to attend that a meeting that's November 4th At the Providence Presbyterian Church in

York, Pennsylvania, you can call them at 7 1 7 7 6 7 4 7 7 2

7 1 7 7 6 7 4 7 7 2 or you go to their website, which is York

PCA org York PCA org and of course the

website again for servant leaders or serving leaders I should say serving leaders ministries is

serving leaders org serving leaders org.

So.

Give us some different scenarios.

In fact, we'll have you do this when we come back for the break.

We have to because we have to go to our first break right now, but when we come back give us a certain scenarios of

Specific things that you have already helped local churches with and

Things that you can do to help the local church be a more vibrant

lighthouse not only for reaching the lost and not only for

further equipping the Saints, but also Obviously bringing praise honor and glory to God first

and foremost.

But when we come back we will have you go through some of that and so our listeners have more of a grasp on Serving

leaders ministries, and if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris.

Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

And please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter.

That's chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

God willing we will be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

Hi, I'm buzz Taylor frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio.

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Hi, I'm pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday

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We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in

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Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study because.

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Reformation Metro, New York who is the keynote speaker at the iron sharpens iron radio pastors luncheon

coming up on Thursday?

October 26th 11 a .m. To 2 p .m.

At the Carlisle fire -and -rescue Banquet Hall in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's absolutely free of charge.

And not only are you going to be fed for free?

Physically and spiritually and have a great time of fun and fellowship with fellow men in the ministry.

But if you attend you'll also be leaving with a very heavy sack of brand new books that have been donated

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Each man will probably wind up leaving with at least a couple of dozen books and these are brand new books.

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have to be a man in ministry and you could be a pastor or an elder which I happen to believe.

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Whatever kind of ministry that you are involved in as long as you are a man in ministry.

You are welcome to this Free event.

It's just send me an email to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and put Pastors luncheon

in the subject line our guest of honor that day will be Steve Bloom Pennsylvania State

Representative who's also running for Congress and a very powerful Christian

brother in Christ who is dedicated to the truths of the scriptures and has an unwavering

commitment to them and now we are back to our discussion with David Wetus of

Serving leaders ministries and also Jim Rhodes who is a veteran missionary with

over 40 years of experience in the mission field.

We are discussing growing in ministry.

Leading courageously and transitioning.

Well, if you'd like to join us on the air with a question.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris.

A -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com and please give us your first name at least your city and state

and your country of residence.

So tell me Dave.

Let's let's have more of a breakdown a bit more detailed.

Understanding of exactly how you go about helping churches.

What how specifically do you get to even know who these churches are?

They typically reaching out to you and and how are they hearing about you and etc.

Counselors and

basically what what happens is we have pastors missionaries

do marriage count master may come

in and

That you're professional.

Basically, we're working with people who have been in in various situations.

So we provide personal counseling for them.

We have people who've had missionaries who've been through trauma overseas.

We have missionaries who come in from furlough we debrief them.

We'll work with people with all kinds of problems and including family problems

within a family.

So we do some marriage and family as well you

name it and Someone's calling us to anything that I get is phone calls from

ministry leaders who are burned out or experiencing burnout physical emotional exhaustion.

And try to help them Work through that either heal from it or we do a lot of coaching to prevent it.

In the past three weeks.

I've done three seminars and this Friday.

I'm doing a fourth on avoiding pastoral flameout and burnout.

Pastors are perfectionistic really hard and Many don't

know when to stop many don't have many don't have the proper balance in their lives.

And so they can instead of being good stewards of the ministry.

God's given them.

They can just sort of squander it by Going to 80 hours a week a non -stop.

No vacation.

No rest.

No balance.

And so that that's the counseling piece

for example

Avoiding sexual misconduct in ministry legal and ethical issues in counseling and pastoral counseling.

I'm also an attorney As well, and so I've got a legal background

have his etiology of

same -sex attraction and homosexuality.

And so I've tried to do a very in -depth seminar on causes of homosexuality and

the church a very cogent intelligent biblical response and loving response

to the issues That people struggle with so we do a lot of

seminars as well and then another

Service that we offer to churches is mediation.

Some as you know, there's lots of conflict within the church within church officers and things like that.

They are called to do mediation between

people just just to help You to either carry out Matthew 18

Avoiding

past pastors

get heavy heavy -handed and you've seen that and oh never in the reformed Baptist community.

I'm just kidding.

See that, you know you get you jump in here because I mean I could go on and on but essentially we're

trying to provide A very safe place the

issues marriage issues.

And so oftentimes when pastors experience that instead of getting help

and then

medicating their issues.

And that's where they get in trouble and filling with an issue getting getting the

appropriate help.

There's so much pressure and I and you guys know that if you if you dare to reveal to some

congregations or some elders a Problem you're facing, you know, you know, you may get fired or

judged as opposed to getting help.

By the way, the.

Yeah, go ahead Jim.

That's actually how Dave and I met because I was serving as a as a

mission hundreds of missionaries out on you

know missionaries

and David I met.

Because I died as a missions leader and

I needed I needed help from someone who could help me help my missionaries.

Dave mentioned and and

and somewhat isolated and

And so I began referring and they would come back and tell me.

Oh Jim.

Thank you so much Dave was so helpful.

He helped me to walk out of and

and and Dave and I were attending

and we got

and we were going around with each other around the table and Dave Introduced himself

said I'm and we knew each other from the people that I had

referred him to him but and.

Helping those

and more importantly to finish well.

Great, and by the way in case you're wondering why I made that reform Baptist joke I don't know if you two

knew I am a reform Baptist.

I just want to make that clear.

You know, we when you make fun of your own people, that's that's okay.

But anyway.

My co -host Reverend Buzz Taylor has a couple words that caught my attention.

What did you mean by debriefing?

Missionaries you go ahead.

You start and I'll fill

in practical issues to two complex issues of coming back

readjusting.

Never feeling like you have a home because you've adapted to the foreign country.

But now you come back people have changed.

Life has gone on a

number of missionaries been shot or

getting

ready to go on the mission field.

I have found a woeful inadequacy for

example to go into sexual Trafficking ministry without being

adequately prepared.

Guess what?

You're going to be falling into for pretty.

We've seen that but Jim is tons of experience.

He's

Jim

has overseen.

Come

along

and

help.

One of

the other

things

that

we actually on

the field.

I've been on the phone with somebody who's established an orphanage.

For example, you know, Uganda for for example, and.

They need some counseling and there's no one that they can go to.

They're in a in a different country different culture and.

And and that's

you

know, multiply that

by when

you

think about it.

It's

not

unlike

thinking about

one of the

Apollo

period of

preparation and then there's a

need to bring in fact.

I wanted to ask you something about that when we return.

We have to go to our midway break right now.

I'll ask the question to start with and you could think about it and respond when we get back.

But.

For some reason I immediately started to think about police officers police officers who very

often are dealing on a daily basis with people that are liars

people that are dangerous and all those kinds of the worst

elements of behavior that you can think of and They they come to

develop, but of course I'm not broad brushing and I've the reason why I know this is a phenomenon is because police

officers have told me this.

That many police officers develop a distrust for everyone.

I mean they develop a distrust for their spouses and and Their neighbors they are

ready to think the worst of them.

And of course, like I'm saying, I'm not broad brushing.

But this is a phenomenon that does exist and I'm wondering if this could be

a reality amongst missionaries who may be in certain areas of the globe where where the

the people surrounding them are using them just to get financial and

physical help from these Missionaries and they may often lie to them.

They may often steal from them.

They may have a zero interest in spiritual matters, but are just faking Conversions and so

on and so the missionaries may wind up.

Feeling that way in regard to everyone around them as well.

But I'll have you answer that when we come back from the break.

If anybody else would like to join us We do have several people waiting to have their questions asked and answered.

But if anybody else would like to get online our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

God willing.

We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in

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Please always remember to tell those organizations that you heard about those events from Chris Arnzen on iron sharpens

iron radio and last but not least now is the Uncomfortable time of the program

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For the longest time for many years I refused to make any public appeals for

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If you're not a member of a local church that you need to repent of that you need to find a Bible -believing church and

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Those two things are commands of God providing for your home and providing for your church.

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whatever it is your advertising is Compatible with the theology expressed on iron sharpens iron radio.

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I can't militate against the theology of this program and now we are back.

With our guests today who are David Wetus the executive

director of serving leaders ministries and Jim Rhodes a Missionary veteran with

over 40 years of experience in the mission field and we are discussing growing in ministry leading courageously and

Transitioning.

Well, if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com

Chris Arnson at gmail .com before we go to any of our listeners.

I would like you to pick up where we left off I had that question for you.

If what I said was at any way applicable to a missionary I was bringing up

the scenario that I have heard from police officers myself that there is a syndrome or

phenomenon among many police officers where they become very Distrustful of those around them because of the

fact that they live day to day very often depending upon where they are geographically, obviously.

But.

Many of them not only are dealing with dishonest people every day but also very dangerous people

and that could be the very same case with missionaries if you could tell us about.

Is there a similar phenomenon with missionaries?

Are either of you guys there?

Yeah,

yeah,

you're a

member, you

know

that you you've

connected yourself to a growing

body of believers.

My wife Barbara not Pennsylvania

can remind us.

We need our

brothers

and

sisters and our church families to come on this walk together.

This business of in Christ is not an individual thing.

We were not called To do it on our own, you know me and Jesus.

We were called to do it together with a church great and.

One of the things that you brought up earlier, which is something that is becoming more and more of a

very difficult situation for churches and that is the

issue of.

Homosexuality.

And of course you have churches that are in this day and age I'm

sure you have Pastors and leaders who are very nervous.

Some might even be as far as terrified as to how go how to go about

Disciplinary action when there is an unrepentant situation among them or other issues that might

involve the church being Set up for a very serious

lawsuit of some kind but we have a very litigious society.

It seems that goes hand -in -hand with homosexuality and homosexual activists.

If you could tell us something about that situation, do you help?

Churches do you help guide them through not only biblically and compassionately and lovingly

Approaching this subject but also perhaps equipping them to Be

protective of the flock not to be subject to the

The authorities at hand in our government and so forth that may wind up one day

Robbing a church of everything that it possesses other than eternal life.

Of course, nothing can nobody can take that away from us but if you could Comment on that

issue.

When we

talk about ideology of same -sex attraction.

Contribute to that.

I do not ascribe to this Mantra today or this politically correct idea that

people are born this way and that this is a genetic Thing that people are

just back most of the

trotty those who would say that you know, it's a

normal behavior.

Actually recognize that the media doesn't recognize that at this point, but even the experts on the other side.

But one of

the things I

try to help in people's lives including abuse not not only limited to that and Then

to to be able to respond to that in a compassionate and biblical way and there were those those are not mutually contradictory.

So that's one aspect of it from a legal perspective.

Churches really do have to walk a fine line and we we do as well as I've got

Resources for ministry leaders and pastors and churches if they want to really protect themselves legally

one of the first with bylaws that you have and To revise them to make sure

that they reflect accurately the values of the church the biblical values of the church.

But that's a wide subject.

Chris.

That there, you know.

If people are more are interested in that they can they can contact us at serving leaders org and we can put them in touch With the

right people to help advise on that topic.

Now if you wouldn't mind though because you brought up something that's a very controversial issue a very

fascinating issue.

An issue that I'm sure there will be many scoffing and Mocking and

rejecting out of hand What you are describing as causes?

for homosexuality.

Could you please at least give guide us through some of them because now that you've got our interest up

Because that is that is a question of the ages there are people Who

are even in the same pew of the same church who may disagree or just be baffled by this?

You know some of us wonder sometimes if they're And I'm not saying this is a correct

way of thinking that but some of us wonder Sometimes when you see someone that you knew as a

young young child acting in a manner that is more reflective of the

opposite gender that they Happen to have and then they grow up to be actively involved in

homosexuality.

You say to yourself Well, I wonder if this person was born that way, you know, how did that, you know, why did that child always?

Behave in a feminine way if it's a boy or a masculine way if it's a girl and then wind up to

Prove the suspicion was correct.

You know, these are these are things that baffle I think most of us.

That take place in a person's life.

That can it can influence a person to develop same -sex attraction.

I'll give you I'll give you an example.

You know, it's not it's it's a very common example.

I've worked with a lot of people who have unwanted same -sex attraction you know a

person who has a

very elevator speech of Some

development can be a longing for maleness that gets

sexualized.

How does that how does that longing for maleness take place.

A young boy who was rejected or abused or Has a distant relationship with a father

longs for a male figure in his life.

There's an innate longing for that.

Maybe maybe he has an effeminate characteristic.

That does not mean in any sense that he's a homosexual at all.

But maybe is it got a feminine characteristic or he's not good at sports and he's rejected by other boys.

He's not chosen for the team.

That has an impact on him.

He Describes meaning to that.

Maybe he's more hanging out more with girls in the neighborhood or he's he's

with his mother more and there's a feminine kind of Influence on his life and he looks at boys

through the kitchen window.

It's called kitchen window syndrome.

He looks at boys through the window and he sees them playing football and he's a he's he's wanting to be with them.

But he's also afraid of them silent longing for maleness and male

connection.

Well when he hits puberty That which is different from him

Can become erotic if the exotic can become erotic meaning with with a normal

development boys Look at girls.

They say oh cooties.

They're different.

I don't like them when they hit puberty.

They look at the girls and they go.

Oh that she's looking nice.

I'm attracted to her for the pre homosexual boy who's developmentally been through some of these experiences.

He's looking at other boys and they feel alien and different to him.

And so he develops an attraction there's an attraction that he feels and

Well in some ways that someone would say oh, I've always been different.

I've always felt this way and that therefore I am born that way, but that's a wrong conclusion

it's it's attraction because the exotic that which is different

has become erotic and So host of other pathways.

So for example sexual abuse and trauma.

Beliefs about stuff

together in certain.

I think I think the secular media have have really foisted this kind of this idea

and it's been popularized but it's simply not true and To help somebody

they have to understand drive to

their God created them.

I always what I try to convey in my seminars is God has given women the gift of femaleness.

God has given men the gift of maleness and In terms of being able to

Accept that and to feel good about it as opposed to feeling embarrassed about it or

again.

You're asking a huge net.

You can't do it justice in a few minutes, but that's a little bit of an overview.

Yeah, perhaps we'll have you back sometime when that will be the exclusive topic that we address.

Just set a curiosity before we depart that issue.

I.

Have some friends in the ministry and who are theologians who are very conservative who are

thoroughgoing Calvinists who are very opposed to the

modern leftist agenda in regard to defending homosexuality as an

alternative lifestyle and as a legitimate and equal an equally.

Moral.

Lifestyle etc, etc.

But at the same time they say because of the fact that We

believe as reformed Christians in total depravity.

That they don't rule out that someone may be born with a proclivity

Towards that particular sin like for instance in Psalm 58 3.

We.

Read the wicked are estranged from the womb.

These who speak lies go astray from birth and you have.

In Romans 1 24 when you are talking specifically about homosexuality

We read.

Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts To impurity

so that their bodies would be Dishonored among them and it seems to imply that he's turning

them over to lusts that they already had.

So if you could do you have any comment?

I know that we're not going to discuss this for the entire show here But I was just curious about your approach to that because these are not

people who are defending.

That.

State of being if you will.

Because someone may have been born with that proclivity.

They'll say that is still a damnable sin that must be repented of.

There is no license to remain that way just as there is no license to continue lying or doing anything

else that we may do As totally depraved individuals before we're born again, but

how do you respond to that?

I have a proclivity towards something or not.

I'm Calling a man to walk

according.

Maybe I have a proclivity of sexual assault

males.

Relationships.

So what that doesn't mean.

I go to do whatever I have a proclivity to do.

I restrain myself In accordance with the with what the Word of God commands me.

So it doesn't matter whether I have a proclivity toward it or not.

What I want to do is obey God and ask him to heal me Deep inside

and and I would just say just to ground this out.

There it's when we talk about this kind of thing.

It's it's brokenness.

There's woundedness inside.

This stuff arises from woundedness.

So our our response for the wounds and yet

just like anything else we Want to call people to repent and live there with their hearts before the

Lord being transformed by the by the grace and power of Christ.

And we're going to be going to our final break right now and If anybody would like to join us and I'm sorry that there

are still some people that have been patiently waiting or at least I Hope they've been patiently waiting to have their questions asked and answered.

We will go to you when we come back from the break.

But if anybody else would like to join them, please do so now before we run out of time.

Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

God willing.

We will be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko Inviting you to tune into A Visit to the Pastors Study Every Saturday

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www .wlie540am .com.

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you.

And we invite you to visit The Pastors Study by calling in with your questions.

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time For a visit to The Pastors Study.

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And one more brief note After a very long absence Tomorrow we

are going to be joined, God willing By Gary DeMar of American Vision.

And we are going to be discussing his brand new book Wars and Rumors of Wars.

So make sure you set your alarm or mark your calendar.

Or tack a post -it note to your refrigerator.

Or however you remind yourself of things That tomorrow, Gary DeMar.

The long -awaited interview with Gary DeMar Who has not been on this program probably in 10 years.

Perhaps a little less, but it's been pretty long.

And we look forward to having Gary return to the program.

Now we are in our final 25 minutes or so Of the program with David

Wetus Executive Director of Serving Leaders Ministries.

And also Jim Rhodes, a missionary veteran With over 40 years of experience on the mission field.

And we're talking about growing in ministry Leading courageously and transitioning well.

Perhaps we will start with you again, David.

How do you equip ministry leaders to lead

courageously.

And then you, of course, can explain how you can help them transition well.

They're

very

charismatic.

They're very gifted in their...

Sometimes their motivations are hidden.

Oftentimes their motivations are hidden from our own eyes.

And so it's really important to establish.

What's that foundation for me.

And knowing who he made me to be.

Identity.

From the affirmation, from my preaching.

From my counseling, from my interactions.

Or something else.

At the conference next week Jim and I are going to be going into much more depth.

On that whole topic.

And that's at the conference in Carbondale?

Yes.

Okay.

I'm sorry, Jim, go ahead.

This is Jim here.

Yeah, another asked hearing that we're going to be dealing with

next week.

When you talked about police officers,

military.

And that is people that are in...

And Dave, why

don't you

talk a little bit...

Three elements.

Traumatic stress really is...

For an eyewitness...

Pastors that I know who operate in the inner cities.

Have been near gunshot wounds, things like that.

Secondary stress is what we hear through the eyes of others.

When I sit and talk with someone who has been abused sexually I'm not there when it

happened.

It might have happened 20 years ago.

But I am absorbing the pain.

I'm hearing the pain.

I'm visualizing.

It has an impact.

And you have to be able to handle that in a very appropriate way.

A very healthy way.

And understand that over time.

Being exposed to primary and secondary traumatic stress.

Can very much...

Kind of burnout, exhaustion.

Loss of hope.

Realistic expectation of what happens in ministry.

And it can result in cynicism.

It can result in anxiety.

On a

gradual basis.

What we try to do is get pastors

sensitized to that.

So they can be a good steward of their ministry.

Is God given each of us.

As opposed to use them as our own tools.

Or use them for our own self.

Well now let's go to...

What are some of the symptoms.

That a pastor, missionary, police officer Might be

experiencing compassion.

What you once took.

Your own needs.

Negative emotions such as depression, anxiety.

Sometimes that can lead to boundary violations.

Loss of a moral compass.

Again, to what's going on.

We need to be able to withdraw to Christ.

Solitude and style.

As opposed to getting caught up in the busyness.

Well you all know how busy you can get.

90 hours a week.

You're never finished.

So that's another area that we'll be addressing At the conference next week.

The idea of avoiding pastoral burnout and flame out.

Surely that couldn't happen to a pastor.

Oh never.

Never, never.

Chris, I think you were going to jump in.

Maybe with a question before.

When Jim was talking.

Oh, I'm just going to go to some of the listener questions Whenever you guys are ready for them.

Yeah, we're ready.

Okay, first of all We have an anonymous listener Who says

I have a Christian friend Who some time ago declared That he was starting to attend a Jewish

temple So that he could get in touch with his Jewish roots.

This seemed odd to me Because they don't worship Jesus.

It appeared to me that because the land of Israel And the Jewish people were considered God's chosen people Above all

others Genesis 12, 13 I will bless those who bless you And him who dishonors

you I will curse.

And in you all the families of the earth Shall be blessed.

That he wanted in on the blessing By declaring his Jewishness In light of Romans

chapter 9 and 11 And Ephesians chapter 2, etc.

God's chosen people must accept Jesus as Messiah.

And Christ, as Jesus says No one can come to the Father except through me In order to truly worship

God.

What do you think about this?

Is this a contradiction of proper worship of God?

And by the way, your Jewish friend Has never been to a Jewish temple Because it doesn't exist.

He may be going to a synagogue.

But he hasn't been going to a temple.

Anyway, the AD 70 destruction of the temple Is what I'm talking about.

But if you could comment on this I know this may be a bit off of our subject.

But it's also connected obviously to David.

Your own testimony as being a Jewish believer.

Perhaps you have some insight on this.

To find out

a little bit I recently went to

an Orthodox Jewish service In a nursing home.

And it was fascinating.

For somebody who wants to explore that.

Just like in Christianity You have a range of religion.

You have a range of, you know, ultra -leftist.

Same thing.

So I think your friend understands That there's going to be some

synagogues That do not at all.

And then there's going to be some Orthodox synagogues that they're very.

When my grandmother died I was the first to arrive at the grave.

You're the rejected.

And I said, Rabbi, with all due respect My guess is that I

believe Scripture More than virtually anybody in your synagogue.

Because you don't even accept.

He didn't have much more to say Because he knew I was right.

Yeah, and wouldn't you say that.

Go ahead, go ahead.

Go ahead.

I was just going to say.

Go ahead, you go ahead.

I was just going to say though Don't you have to be clear about Making a distinction

Between observing someone else's religion Worship service or their gathering

To perhaps just learn more about it.

So you can be more effective In your witness for the gospel So that you can

know more about them.

If you really care and love someone Care about someone and love them You may

want to go that extra mile To learn where they are coming from.

And there's a distinction between that.

And going to a non -Christian house of worship And worshipping there Because you're

not worshipping the Triune God In a synagogue or a mosque.

Or you might be privately.

But the people around you There who are worshipping They are not worshipping Jesus Christ.

And they're not worshipping the Trinity.

So isn't there a distinction that has to be made?

One can make that distinction I would say if I was sitting in one of those places.

Sitting at the,

on the

other hand As you mentioned He could be going there

Kneeing for everybody And

holding

you accountable And mentoring and

pastoring And shepherding you along.

Yes.

And to give you an example Of something that I have done And continue to do on occasion

That's not perhaps quite exactly What our listener is talking about.

But whenever I have a family Or a friend or a loved one Who is Roman

Catholic Or a member of a religion.

That is not my own.

By the way, I was raised Roman Catholic And I am a convert to Not only Biblical Christianity But

Historic Protestant and Reformed Theology.

But I will go to those churches.

But I will not participate In the rites, rituals and ceremonies

That are specifically acts of worship.

I will not receive the Roman Catholic Mass.

For instance I will not pray along with Those around me when they are

Praying Especially if they are evoking Mary and the Saints And things like that.

I have been at a At a synagogue for a A memorial service For a

Jewish individual.

And I'll do things like that.

I haven't yet been invited to a mosque Or anything like that.

But I would go to pay my respects.

But I would not be actually participating In a specific rite, ritual or ceremony That God

would find offensive.

Does that make sense?

Sounds like something Jesus would do.

Yeah, I believe so Although I have friends that disagree with me That would refuse to go

to those places But I have not yet been convinced That that would be prohibited.

We have another listener We have We

have Harrison In Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania.

Who says Isn't it very important That pastors develop strong Friendships

and relationships With their colleagues in ministry Outside of their own congregations.

There may be things That are going on Because of those very congregations And the specific sins that are

present there That it would make a world of difference.

Should a pastor have A shoulder to lean on And someone to confide in

Very deep secrets That is not a part of that assembly That he is shepherding.

Many, many of them Existed of

nature.

And we do

pastors where we get.

We want to equip you But we also want to

connect you With each other.

To have multiple colleagues

And ministry leaders together.

Meeting together I think is a great benefit.

And that's a big part of what Dave and I are trying to do.

And I would affirm everything Dave just said

I think a need to

That would allow a pastor.

I mean I'm fully aware of the reality.

That's

something more Than leaving our

pastor Be a part of our family.

Where that would be.

How does that happen?

We have Christian In Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Who wants to know What are the three or four top reasons That men consider

Leaving the ministry.

People

who

go through some very, very Very difficult, painful experiences.

I knew a missionary couple I'll leave the country unnamed.

But I knew a missionary couple That founded a church In a foreign country.

They worked in that church

Then betrayed that couple.

Trying to help somebody.

Bitter.

Burnout.

One of the things we're going to be talking about Is transitioning in ministry.

And it's not my ministry.

It's God's ministry.

And so the attitude needs to be God, where are you calling me?

And maybe God calls you into A particular church or ministry And then you transition to

another.

Sometimes it may be even A demotion.

And yet when God's calling you into

Another area.

Jim, do you want to add to that at all?

I would just add that mission

agencies And many that I'm

When their people leave.

And that's one of the questions.

It's not the difficulty.

It's not

money.

Why people leave is they can't get along With the people they're serving with

Around us are going to know.

We have

Arnie.

In Perry County, Pennsylvania.

Who says You mentioned that burnout Is a main reason why many Pastors consider

leaving the ministry.

What are the main reasons For burnout?

And how can you prevent it?

It doesn't take a brain surgeon to understand.

Between your personal life And

your attending to your family.

Attending to your own needs Which often times is translated into being selfish.

A balanced life.

Spending more time with God Than doing for

God.

That would be another major factor Because

He withdrew to quiet places.

Some of the major factors that contribute to burnout.

And the answer to burnout is.

Really the opposite.

Of what causes it.

Being with Him, being refreshed.

Living out of a Christ -filled life.

A Christ -filled abundant life.

As opposed to.

Those are some of

the initial thoughts that I have.

Why does a house Burn down or fall?

If you look at a house.

That's one of the things we go over.

At the beginning of the seminar next week.

How do you.

When you're starting in ministry How do you lay a foundation.

That

foundation Begins

with seeing ministry.

Not as something I do for me.

It's just not about me.

I'd like it to be about me.

I'm that human.

But it's not about me.

It's about Jesus and His kingdom.

We don't need to be making much about me.

Or my church or whatever.

We're supposed to make much about Jesus.

And if that's our foundation.

If we get into ministry.

And that's the foundation that we build on We're going to go a long way.

Yeah.

There seems to be Polar opposite ways that pastors Are treated by their congregations.

And obviously there's a lot of areas In between.

But you have on the one hand The extreme of idol worship That is

Plagued That is a plague In the word of faith movement And other similar

kinds of aberrant Theologies.

I mean it could be even existing In a theologically sound church.

That's just You've got a very unbiblical approach To how to view your

Authorities in the church.

Or you have people Who are turned into Rock stars And they

are treated like They are the Hollywood Elite and so on.

But then you have probably what is more common On the other end of the spectrum You have people who think

that A pastor's job is easy.

They think that Because of the fact that they may be only there Once a week on Sunday morning That that's all the guy

does As he speaks for a half hour to an hour Every Sunday and then he's finished Working

and they don't realize That he is responsible for the souls Of men, women and children Over

whom he is An under shepherd.

But a lot of this is These problems I would imagine Are caused by the

unbiblical Way that congregants View their pastors And their elders.

And if you understand that Then you're not going to fall into that Hero worship or allow that to

happen In a ministry that you're Leading.

And on the other side When Paul actually continues in that very

passage The Corinthians were notorious for picking at him.

It's a small thing to me By you or by any human court

He said the one who examines.

And when you're that firm In your foundation You'll be able to

People might press in on them You'll be able to

respond in love.

You were talking about Chris.

And we are now out of time.

We're out of time now.

And I just want to make sure that our listeners have your Contact information.

Servingleaders .org.

Servingleaders .org is your website.

Any other contact information that you can give.

You can find our phone number They can also

find our email addresses Rather than giving them right now.

Great that's fine.

That's fine.

I want to thank you both for being on the program.

I look forward to you both returning To the program.

I want to thank everybody who listened.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives That Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior Than you

are a sinner.