Listener Questions: Combat Sports, Jeffrey Dahmer, & More | PT S6 E7

Okay, boom bop pal welcome back to the point -taking podcast guys, my name is hunter i'm hosting this podcast today and joining today

A nice little setup. That was good joining today is the illustrious the knowing of many things pastor

Josiah shipley. I thought that was his And then also joining us the also illustrious the owner and operator

Of his own company major league mechanical. He forgot the name and he saw someone's shirt.

I know he did. Yeah, there's no shirt You're right. There's no shirt. We're just hating on me for no reason

Operating out of memphis, tennessee. Let's go brother. Mike What's up, mike? Let's get it.

What is it, man? We're happy to have mike back on the podcast for a second time. Well, we tried three one time it didn't work

Let's skip all right over that but now we got it now We got it back in and we have some really cool topics for us today guys.

We have a couple of different questions Coming from a couple different places, uh mostly found online

One of which was brought to us by your wife Yes Which we will open with because it's super important for this church specifically because we have a ministry here at this church the question is

Is combat sport? sinful Or we could say is combat sport god honoring is combat sport some type of issue and so we here at witten have a ministry called sog mma that's soldiers of god mma, uh that we do we fight for the mic, so Let's open up conversation guys.

Uh Combat sports is is it mentioned in the bible? You know, what what what are we looking at here?

As far as is it mentioned in the bible? Um Yes but It's not mentioned in the bible.

You should have an mma ministry in your church paul does say what he says

Aren't there many that run the race, but only one gets a prize paul didn't believe in participation trophies, by the way

And then the next verse he says I believe it's the same passage When I run

I intend to win when I box i'm not boxing as if i'm beating the air, right?

Now paul said that when I box I do not box as if i'm trying to hit the air in other words

I'm trying to hit somebody now I don't think you can take from that Yes, that is a a god -centered command that you have to have a boxing ministry in your church

But I think the point behind it would be this What's your intention yep, and the intention of this church

Is has been and always will be To use that as a ministry to reach people who more than likely otherwise would not come to the church

And then to use that to enter a realm of the culture Completely different from the way everyone else approaches it

So for example, we have an mma ministry here and some of our church members use the gym to work out which is excellent

A lot of the people that come are training for a myriad of different reasons um a lot of young men, obviously

From our community and then some of our people including myself previously have competed uh in the local mma scene here at in memphis and the idea behind sog here at witten is to Enter into that realm that scene carrying ourselves differently than everyone else does

We're not going to go in there cursing yelling say i'm going to kill you. We're going to compete we're going to win and then we will use

The platform we have in that scene to give glory to god and not ourselves, which unfortunately is rather rare in The mixed martial arts combat sport scene.

So that's the idea behind it Okay, uh, so I have a question for mike, but before I do that, uh

Are we currently aware of hector? Is hector still around? We haven't done hector since you left so we need to bring him back

Okay, so hector I have no idea what hector is, okay, so hector is a persona, uh born about was it andrew

I think Yes, yeah, uh was a persona that played the alternate opinion, okay

So let's so when someone is hector they're giving the opinion That's not really theirs and then they morph back to themselves later.

So yeah, so is this dnd? No, no, that's a sin No You're the dragon slayer in the last week's episode which showed my exuberant knowledge

For dungeons and dragons. I knew I had so much content to contribute there. Y 'all toss me one of those hats.

Yeah That's not the hector hat it is today Anything can be a hector hat if you believe you are listening

If you're listening and not watching have you seen the noggin on this guy, why did you give him that hat? Well, see it's not the noggin first of all, it's the

I used to do that. It's the headphones. There we go. So he's currently wearing the headdress so everything coming out of his mouth might be

Well, actually the first thing coming out of my mouth is gonna be scripture. So Hold on. No, no, no because Being hector doesn't mean that i'm evil or that i'm wrong.

It just means that I have the opposite opinion okay, so Hector so you said

You said and correct me if i'm wrong that we're entering in these arenas With a different attitude with a different perspective

We're coming in there to glorify god. Yes. Okay. So if I were to be

The arguer here and i'm going to be hector I'm going to quote psalms chapter one

How happy is a man who does not follow the advice of the wicked or take the path of the sinners? Or join a group of mockers instead his delight is in the law of man.

This is a different thing that I have memorized Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly nor standeth in the way of sinners nor sitteth in the seat

Of the scornful but his delight is in the law and the lord Is in the law of the lord and in this law doth he meditate day and night?

Yep So yeah king james's I I can't even read it in a different translation because I've memorized that as a child in psalms

It works wonderfully. Yeah in psalms. It works wonderfully. So Basically, it says don't stand in the way of sinners.

Don't sit in the seat of the scornful don't be In the midst of all the sin and where the sin is so How can we marry the idea of not?

Walking in the council of the ungodly And being in the midst of the sin and what you were saying

By recognizing that hector added the phrase being in the midst of sin that is not in psalm 1 1

Would be the primary way. Otherwise, jesus would need to repent as he

Aided unbelievers houses often and so on so forth Blessed is the man who does not stand in the way of the sinner

Sit at the seat of the scornful or walk in the counsel of the ungodly. Yeah, that's exactly the point

That's where you should be because you're trying to spread the seed where it needs to be spread the right

Physically, that's where it should be. Yeah, but mentally and spiritually i'm doing something different. Exactly. So this is when

Um paul says, uh, I guess it was to the church at corinth. He goes when I told you to not uh

Associate with the sexual immoral. I didn't mean those of this world. Otherwise, you'd have to leave the world

That's wherever you go. I meant with those claiming to be in the household of god They're living however, they want and feel no type of way about it but the point is um yeah, if We were doing that and we looked acted and talked just like everyone else and i'd say it's a wasted ministry

It's a it's a wasted. It's not a ministry. The whole point of sog is to fight for the mic exactly

So you're not only just they see you in the room It's what you say after doing said thing that you get to give your message

That's the whole point of fighting for the mic. So think about this for a minute So We're free not to say that if someone's paying you dues to train you that that means that you're okay, but we're free

It is genuinely a ministry of the church that we're trying to develop young men To be godly young men young boys a lot of times a lot of times.

Yeah In fact last week we had 25 people there 16 were boys under the age of 20.

That's what i'm saying That's crazy. So because I said all you guys 20 or 20 years and under y 'all gonna move that stuff 16 people left.

There's like eight of us left What was funny is I couldn't hear what you said, so I felt older Crap there's only four of us left we walk in We walk in We ask our opponent if we can pray with him before we go

We compete we win At least that's the intention And when we are interviewed instead of talking about how incredible we are and nobody can hang with us and we're whatever

We shine light and give glory to another to god. That's the mindset behind it

And that's a balance I think A lot of people don't recognize christians can have a desire to compete and win not come in the second place and win

But genuinely do I mean it says in whatever you do in word or deed do something dumb for the lord and not for men

So I will say that when it comes to competition That is an easy way to make something about yourself.

So we're trying to do it a different way That's the idea behind it And just to put that in perspective

The amount of people That I have gotten to share the gospel with encourage pray for Uh invite the service etc because of sodom and may

Is incalculable to me i've been doing it for I don't know 12 years now and it is Hundreds, I mean just over this world.

So That's what I would say to that. So listen, my wife asked this question And the biggest thing of her concern was it's not she understands the what we're trying to do but the act of actually achieving that is

Combat sports. Oh, like you're going in here and knocking somebody out. You're breaking somebody's nose

You're breaking an arm, you know, we just had danny barlow go And break his arm in the fight in ufc and he can like what she's saying is

How is that act? Yeah glorifying god With the process it takes to actually be the light in the dark room

Like how do you how can you justify the actual battle mma sports the physical contact?

Where there's a risk of hurting killing? Damaging something very bad. Even if you're trying to do it the right way.

That's her. That's her biggest concern And do it without using genesis 32 because i'm going to after you done.

I think um I think The answer to that is yes, though.

I think that's a genuinely good question Like for example right now if you were to rewind this you saw me adjusting my headset

Because my left ear is killing me because i have cauliflower ear because i've been hitting the head so much the past three weeks

That it keeps swelling up. So this isn't super comfortable draining cauliflower is not fun, bro. I have done it

On average two or three times a week for two months a grown man. I gotta figure something else out Oh ava and naomi watching are super hopeful while i'm yeah throwing up in a corner

So anyway, no, no, oh that's cool. Hey, can I touch it? Oh, no get your hand away So, um when we train

And this is something i'm not speaking of marissa This is something that I think a lot of people who have not done physical combat sports for don't understand

They think you have to be mad at each other while you do that kind of stuff No, it's like hey, man, let's do a couple rounds afterwards.

All right, let's go to ihop and yeah And let's go read the bible afterwards. So it's not that training wise as far as so as far as the camaraderie

Of the actual group There is no ill will you can train combat?

Whatever and there's no ill will hatred everyone understands there's a risk of injury and that's okay

It's physical competition Now as far as competing As far as competing outside of just training for each other

I think there is a difference between two guys agreeing Signing saying hey, let's go in here and let's compete

That's different than meeting each other in the back alley You know what? I mean that that's that's different to me or a bar fight

That's what I was gonna ask mike. I was like hey mike. Have you ever been in a fight? I was gonna say how many were sinless?

Absolutely a bunch of fights. Don't look at the criminal record. I've changed man I can

I guess only speak for me I had 10 amateur fights Never once was

I like man, I really want to hurt this guy I want to make it where he can't go to work tomorrow. I want to never once right, um

Even people that spoke quite ill of me Never once that door might not be reciprocated on the other side.

It might not that's not your job It might not be and i'm it's probably not it probably is not

And that's okay Because I have a goal in there and it is to win but it's to win with a bigger cause than just winning

So yeah about you, right? So I don't think any risk of injury

Is a reason Not to do something. I understand don't misunderstand me I understand the risk is much higher in combat sports than it would be in a ministry where you're mending quilts but I will say the least

I would say Will if we do that, you'd get stabbed plenty of times doing that. Yeah, that's hurting yourself

You'll bleed just as much I had someone one time telling me you shouldn't do things, uh that risk injury it shows.

Um, just respect for Your body god has given me. Yeah, you better live in a bubble is um, do you go on mission trips right to third world countries?

Did you drive here this morning? To your car today, do you live in nempes?

I'm being and I use this during um When sickness is going around the people like maybe we shouldn't go to church

Everyone in this room can think of someone they know who has died in a car wreck Our city decides to put it on Signs going over i -40 of how many people have died in a car wreck.

Yeah, slow down. Yeah Keep your eyes on the road as you tell me to look up here And read a

Analog sign. It's not like easy to read a lot But we risk that now

I understand Don't misunderstand what i'm saying. I understand you have driven your car

Many times without getting hurt There's only so many times you can go train in may and not feel some type of pain and I understand that It's usually limited to one but feeling pain having one feeling pain is not sinful

Causing someone else to feel pain if it's purposeful and agreed upon is not sinful Otherwise, we need to go ahead and get rid of spankings and sprints and push -ups for punishment for your children

So there's a purpose to the pain and it's agreed upon by both. That's the difference

I think and i'm hoping i'm not talking too much, but that's the other thing you're gonna go to genesis yeah, but On that before I say is we would have to go

And say that god has done something wrong to us because god Uh thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Yeah, right god chase chastens chasens Chasens chasens the ones he loves chasen did chasen

He chasens the ones he loves, uh, and I can tell you That the pain that comes from that.

Yeah I would choose injury from mma every single day of every single week, so i'm like our

I mean we're we're Measuring things here and we also have to say we would have to blame god

If we say that this is a sin, I believe you'd have to say well So it just comes down to the intention

I think the intention of your heart the intention act of what y 'all are doing I think it's the intention and the way you carry yourself for example

To your wife's point if I have someone come in who's being a wild man trying to hurt people like during training

Like intentionally trying to hurt people that person's not participating in salt. That's not what it's about This is about making each other better or you put him in the ring with you and pop him in the mouth

He's humbled and that has happened Mike tyson, everyone has a plan until they're punched in the mouth.

That's 100 true That's not gonna work

Let's start over Reset, where's the man? I used to be able to do it so much on playstation.

Let's see pause up x over x That was restored Yes, sir

All right, so last one that I have for this is genesis chapter 32 and we're going to start in uh verse 24

Jacob was left alone and a man wrestled with him until daybreak I remember this when the man saw that he could not defeat him

He struck jacob's hip socket and they wrestled and dislocated his hip You're a genius for thinking of this one, thank you brother, uh, then he said to jacob let me go

For its daybreak, but jacob says I will not let you go unless you bless me What is your name? The man asked jacob your name will no longer be jacob

It'll be israel because you have struggled with god and with men and have prevailed so It's what we call a christophany

Uh, we can let's see. Is it too much to ask for the uh for like the word to appear?

Oh, we can get that. All right, can we point at it? It's like Christophany It's an appearance it's an it's an appearance of flesh pre -incarnate jesus pulling up.

All right, uh And so we see that he rests. Yeah, i've used that word a lot of times pull up You got a problem pull up.

We see that he wrestles with jacob And jacob's got the skill and what he strikes his hip socket

Dislocates it right? He strikes it. They wrestle a little bit more and then he's like ow, it's daybreak Let me go out so, you know, there is risk with um with fighting and with all that but you know, uh

I mean, we're talking about dislocating the hip socket very purposely like he struck his hip socket and wrestled a little bit and waited for that thing to pop so uh

So with no campbell's clinic around right this dude happened to know the anatomy pretty dang

Well, it's almost like he created it. It's almost like how many times in your mma career. Have you popped a hip socket?

That's what i'm saying. That's a that's a special kind of move right there. The guy is either from china or is jesus.

Yeah Two options, yeah He knows all the the little pressure points.

Yeah It's very so what you're using there is that jesus to teach someone a lesson used

Physical pain used physical pain for that force and injury even but his intent was for a purpose for a good correct

That's what i'm saying. That's what i'm saying. That's the entire purpose of what y 'all change his name to israel You know,

I could tell you people We need to move on the next question I can tell you people in that gym whose lives have been changed because of that And whose lives are currently changing and they're not even aware in the process of they don't even know i'm i've been part of one they don't even know man, and it's like Super exciting to see his heart change like it's super cool

Really is really is And I don't know if his heart would have I don't even think that person would have been here

If it wasn't for soggy mma, I can tell you that's what I mean So that's just a it's a perfect example of one small inkling.

I've only been at this church 18 to 18 months two years And i've seen growth in the sog ministry

You know sanctification Man So I think uh to tie a little bow on this question

Um, we should say is combat sport a sin Inherently, I would say no.

I would say the attitude and the spirit that you bring into it will always dictate

What is profitable what is good, right if you come in with a self -inflating?

attitude And degrading towards others attitude then yeah what you're doing is absolutely it bears no fruit look at the fruit that you bear

Um, you don't necessarily have to be part of an mma ministry to make mma non -sinful.

However, your heart needs to be Correct and your intention needs to be checked as as strange as it sounds to someone who doesn't do combat sports

Your intention has to be not to tear other people down but build them up as awkward as that sounds

And sometimes you have to break someone down to physically lift them up to get them Emotionally, exactly.

They're so shell so hard that you got to tear that that shell off to get to what's where they can actually hear it

Yeah All right question skin tender hearted. I love that this morning. That was great question number two, and this one comes straight from the online

Uh, this is quora, which is like reddit for less cool people or even more cool people

I don't even know. It sounds really cool Is it wow is it spelled with q?

Yeah, it's like a question. I thought it was I thought i'm not even gonna tell you What I thought just go ahead when

I read that So it's not cora I'm gonna be real

What school since you graduated from public schools remember y 'all don't don't forget three episode 10 episodes back public school go check it out

Okay is jeffrey dahmer A man who accepted jesus on death row after kidnapping little boys.

Yeah, raping them murdering them Sodomizing their corpses eating their corpses and using their skeletons for decoration really in heaven now

That's a youch. I think what from all three of us would be unanimous If jeffrey dahmer

Was Genuinely repentant of his sins three weeks before he died or what? I don't know whatever. Yeah, whatever that time frame was

If he genuinely printed the answer is absolutely yes, because there's never been anyone who genuinely repents

Whoever found jesus to be anything other than a savior Um now I can't tell you that happened.

So if the question is is he and I have no idea I can tell you that he certainly was not on the way there

During his life outside of prison. I can guarantee you that that's not the works of a believer

What happened before he died? I don't know but the answer to that is the exact same as a thief on the cross

Thief is not exactly a great translation there Uh, but that dude was a bad dude on the cross next to jesus

Upon his genuine repentance jesus said see you in paradise today.

He'll be with me in paradise now Now the proof of that Had that guy lived let's say the romans

We would have seen a changed life over the next six months We would have seen that so if jeffrey dahmer

Genuinely printed repented and got out whatever we would have seen a changed life Well, we'll say thank god that we're not god because I would say there's absolutely no way that you're being truthful in what you said because look at your look at the

What we had to go off of yeah, i'm not gonna i'm glad that he's way more graceful than I am, you know

Because it would have been a hard no for me what we got to remember What's done with him is done

We should be far more fearful for the people who made that profession and lives never changed and currently right now think they're on the way

To heaven and that's terrifying As far as those wicked horrific works that he did

Every scale will be balanced Um, the bible talks about severe punishment and hell and and all that stuff

Either jesus or the individual who committed those Will pay for those sins so that every single scale will be balanced justice will be served so yeah,

I I don't know that there's a none of us can know for sure not just because we can't read hearts because We didn't have the opportunity to see his life after that, right?

And I maybe i'm unaware of how early or late this was in his prison sentence Yeah, I don't even remember when he died on death row.

Okay For 10 years now was it when is it when he was strapped into the injection chair or was it four years into the time, you know, so that's probably as Far as we could go into that with the exception of saying

Yes, if someone genuinely repents God is powerful enough to save them from all their sin.

And here's here's what i'll say about it because uh This speaks and not necessarily this question

I mean this question was listed with a whole bunch of other ones so you can kind of Understand the heart and intention behind the question and in this case it was bitterness

Uh behind these questions, unfortunately Uh, however, there have been many people who were not bitter and just wondering who've asked this exact same question

But i'm gonna i'm gonna go ahead and address the heart of that question is fairness That's what a lot of people are worried about How is that right?

How is that fair that he can do all those things and then just say sorry and be done with it?

Yeah Well, first of all, it is not fair and that is the entire point of the bible and the gospel of jesus christ the realization here that you need is that It is just so more much easier to see and accept with the case of jeffrey damer

That he was in need of a savior than it is to look at yourself and that's right. I need a savior because jeffrey damer had

Went to boom, you know to the public Extreme side, you know and you struggle with and I struggle with you know, since it might be more private

Or just a life sans jesus Life without salvation is a life in need of salvation

And no one who has ever received salvation received it fairly ever

God got the crap end of the stick He's the one who died and he is saving a whole bunch of people who

Weren't repenting. He said father forgive them for they know not what they do. That's as they're stabbing him as they're you know, killing him

Right. He didn't wait for you to start attending church. He didn't wait for you to say you're sorry He didn't wait for you to even realize that you were doing anything wrong.

He died for you as you were in the midst of sin so to say Is he really in heaven like that's just messed up.

Well, it's actually messed up that any of us get to go to heaven That's what's messed up To dig on that question.

I think it would be more appropriate like how would god allow that that stuff to happen? like that's that's where they're coming like I think i'm i'm assuming here.

It's like How would an all love all knowing all loving god allow those acts to happen and then allow him to come into the kingdom?

Right, you know like it's bigger than Repentance and for that question, I believe

I understand scripture, but i'm saying like as a Somebody that doesn't believe

I would be Like why do I want to be part of that? Right? You can do whatever you want And you got to get out a free jail card like just say you're sorry and Gone in there.

Why you want to you know what i'm saying? Why like that's I think that's the Biggest part of that question.

It's not if he's in heaven. It's like he knew that was going to happen. He Everything threw out all that and then at the end of the day all going god knew he was going to repent and come get

In heaven. How did he allow that to happen? Yep. That's that's where i'm hurting like that's like Ouch, you know, let's talk about that But as we go into that one little side note

Remember there's a difference between god forgiving someone their sin And someone receiving earthly punishment

For crimes they committed. Yes. So for example It can be righteous

It can be righteous For someone to be correctly put to death for their crimes here on earth

And still be forgiven for god on repentance on death row or whatever Repentance and forgiveness does not equal

A removal of all consequences. Yes. I mean, that's just not how it works. I mean, that's that's not how it works um

If you feel that's the way You're to do it. Um You're gonna have a hard time reading the bible

You're gonna have a hard time Learning how to discipline your kids because forgiveness

You can forgive your children and there still be And there's still be gonna forgive them tomorrow and the next day.

Yeah, I can forgive them today But forgiveness doesn't mean a removal of okay. I forgive you.

Yeah But someone's still washing that wall, yeah, you know what I mean getting them clothes up, that's right.

Yeah, you're gonna do whatever. Yeah um as far as how could such a loving god allow such horrific acts of atrocities to happen

You know That question has been asked Hopefully by all of us at some point.

It's called the odyssey And you can go a lot of ways about answering it

But here's just a few helpful ones and you guys jump in whenever you feel like it When you talk about how could god allow things to happen?

My answer to that person is always the same Okay What would you have preferred god done and I don't say that as a trap or a trick or whatever?

What would you have preferred god done? Sometimes the answer that question helps answer the question itself for example

And i'll shift and we'll come back to this exact one the canaanites are a good example

The canaanites Were doing horrific things as a culture

I mean killing their young just horrific things And god told abraham in 400 years

They're not going to have repented and i'm bringing you back to take this land That's exactly what happened god brought the people out of egypt out of slavery

Which he put them into slavery for their sin and selling the brother into slavery Jacob, yeah, and excuse me, joseph brings them out and they go and they conquer canaan

That is god putting an end to the horrific things that the canaanites were doing now normally the response given to me is

So he killed them. I said yes He justly judged them for what they have been doing for 400 years whose children did the same thing whose grandchildren who's great -grown

And they'll say and they'll say something. Well, that's not fair. I'm like, okay I see three options god can continue to let it happen for forever

If that happened you would say god's unfair 400 years there were people saying why is god letting exactly if god forced them to do things they didn't want to do and Robotically made them do x y and z

When I show you examples out in the bible, you say that's not fair because he violates their free will I mean even bruce almighty wasn't allowed to do that on remember

And you don't like that when he judges them properly for what they did you say it's too harsh so Stuff like that's easy.

What makes this one hard is the victims Were and I don't mean spiritually innocent, but were innocent of any crime

You understand they were innocent of any earthly crime My answer to that would be threefold one

Most clearly. I don't know. That's where i'm at. It says that one day I will and I am satisfied

With at least that it says one day. I will not have to Two we live in a fallen world

And there are evil Evils all around us as a result of that fallen world.

We as a humanity Have chosen evil And god is allowing us to live in the world that we chose over him

That's the ultimate answer now people don't like that answer. That's the truth. That's the ultimate answer that we have rejected his way

And so god is allowing us to live in the world that we chose And when we don't like the results

When we don't like the results we blame god or everything else other than ourselves

But this is the sample we chose and you know, sometimes people say well, it's not the sample I chose.

Well, actually it is Because there's only two possible things. There's autonomy and theonomy Theonomy is god's law

Autonomy is self -law If we are not submitted to god's law Then we're submitted to man's law

And this is the part that people got to recognize Why is what jeffrey dalmer did wrong?

now If there is no god And there is no standard of god's law. Let's push this to the side like our culture is done.

Let's push that over there Why is it wrong? You don't even have a scale to go off.

You don't even have I can tell you why it's wrong I Can tell you why it's wrong because rape is a capital offense in exodus because murder is prohibitive of god's law

Because taking advantage of the young is prohibited by jesus. Okay. Yeah You can't say that you have a standard and just to be straight with you and this one always makes uh atheist mad

Luckily, I don't care Think about this for a moment and just hear me for a moment

If all we are is super evolved Monkeys super evolved protoplasm

Bags of mostly water gotcha And neurons are firing off in our brain

Which force our actions our thoughts our emotions? Then why is what he did wrong?

Seriously why If you say because it's against the law Well kind of depends on where you go because unfortunately some of those things he did are not against the law in other countries

Just kind of goes with you kind of goes back to you taking dude's wallet that story you gave, you know

It's like tell me this is right. How how do you know that this is wrong? Where do you get that that to me taking this from you because I can overpower you

And i'm bigger than you I can take your wife from you. How do you how do you justify that? That's incorrect? So that's really the question.

So yeah, i'm gonna re -ask it just to make sure people understand the question is how can such a loving god? allow

Things like this to happen One he doesn't have a purpose in those actions He has a purpose in allowing those actions to happen and i'll see it one day and i'm i'm satisfied with that Two, it's a result of a fallen world that we have chosen and are continually choosing three the only reason

We can even ask that question because there's a standard of right and wrong in our minds and then we get it from this and we

Get it from this and if you get it from anywhere else You actually can't look me in the eye and say what he did was wrong and I know we'll try and we'll say things like Yeah, but it hurt somebody

Well, um Why is that wrong if in other words watch this

If there is no god Or if there is a god, but he doesn't have a standard Have you ever seen anyone?

Anyone ever get on to a lion for eating the young of another lion?

No, because you say it's in his nature. Have you ever seen have you have you seen what hyenas do?

While it's still alive Okay Dog eat dog world.

We have entire Animals that they only ever get food by stealing. Yeah, right. Okay What percentage of animal sex is rape like 90?

I mean, it's crazy. Think about it deer season. They're literally running into traffic. That's what they're doing.

That's right Okay now and i'm saying all that not to be funny We never say that's wrong, right?

But if all we are is evolved from that Then you can't say what he did was wrong

Now hear me I can say it's wrong Not because i'm better than someone else because I have a standard by which says you shall not murder

You understand absolutely, but if you don't have that standard, you can't even start by saying why it's wrong. You don't even have a starting point

And we can also talk about uh, and this is something that unless you're saved it might actually make you upset uh what

Happens gives the most glory to god and sometimes in the end in the end in the end and sometimes

What gives the most glory to god is the absolute worst of the worst?

Being reconciled to him and it's like and those who are upset with christ

That makes them more upset But those who are seeking god and they say look at the worst of the worst and he can turn to a god that says you can be reconciled to me because i'm just But i'm kind i'm just and there will be payment

But for the sins you've already jesus has already paid you know and so what gives the most glory to god and As christians we can look at stories like that.

I hope it's true and we can pray of course pray that it's true But it it's a source of joy because how many people can look at that?

Even though he we didn't get to see if his life changed We don't know if that actually happened, but we can know that god can save someone like that We believe that the god we serve can save someone.

That's right. That's right And so that brings a lot of glory to god because not everybody

Can say that they know somebody who can reconcile a person like that somebody that's that far gone and fully

With no Held back aggression none. His sins would be cast as far as the east is from the west.

That's right Just like anybody else. That's right, and god would rejoice when he walked into that's right You know, it's amazing

Someone posted this Why just throw them in the river, you know, like But I get it it's beautiful someone posted something one time

As you know the apostle paul Murdered or helped murder

A large amount of christians before he was a christian a large amount and When he died

Someone posted he was met with applause By those whom he helped kill because they came to recognize what grace was that's wild and that's grace.

That's wild So grace can do that to somebody they can change the heart in that kind of way and I want to say something

As far as forgiveness goes The process of forgiveness for a human for a person

So let's say that I have to forgive let's say pastor. Josiah and mike Got together and did something awful and I have to forgive them

That is not a one -time decision. No, you don't forgive somebody once and then all of a sudden everything's good

And then and then when you start to feel those feelings again, you're like, oh, I must not have ever forgived them.

No You have to make that choice over Every time over it's the gift that keeps on giving that's good, man.

Yeah, that's good. That'd preach. Yeah, right Yeah, you have to that's a wednesday night bible study. Look at that. It might be a sunday sermon.

Come on, man And it's just it's the same as with let's get them. Let's get it I like to build up You know, you started small

I went big, you know, somebody's gotta swing for defenses But it's the same as grief comes in waves, right and when you have to forgive because we have a wicked heart

The desire is evil I mean and we it will Tempt you and it will come at you and it will hit you and you have to decide

I will put this away. I will choose grace. I will choose forgiveness

Until all of a sudden it doesn't hit you as hard Right. It's a process God has no process

God forgives And it's over He doesn't have to stop himself and remind himself and get past the pettiness and get past the anger

God when you come to him with a repenting heart Asking for mercy

He gives you mercy and then he gives you grace and then he throws that sin as far

As the east is from the west and it's over, you know, a lot of people can't grasp the amount of love and the amount of Grace, it takes for god to be able to do that.

And so when they see jeffrey dahmer Even though he didn't sin against you. It is still hard for you to grasp

How god can forgive? That fully let me let me say this first off you're right that'd preach.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely We'll take notes. We'll watch this again and again Yeah, write it down a little star attitude a couple times a little asterisk by this part passage.

I've mentioned this a while back One of god's purposes I said overall

I don't know why in this exact scenario, but I trust there is As hard as this is to hear for people like me

It is important for god to teach us forgiveness.

It's impossible to teach forgiveness if we've never been wronged. Yep Let's just call it like it is.

It's impossible to teach forgiveness and never wrong I don't know about The victims families and all that stuff and I i'll be real with you you know when jesus expresses

When he's teaching us to pray and matthew That though testing is necessary for proving our faith.

We shouldn't seek it out. God God, uh lead us not into this. Yeah god, don't test me like you tested abraham.

I'm i'm not ready for that, you know um We talk about forgiveness

I can assure you At this stage in my life if I was the father

If that was one of my children You know I I gotta be straight.

That's not gonna be my attitude. Yeah That's hard pastor jeff in one of his sermons on forgiveness a few weeks ago noted the quaker community in the in the northeast when one of those

School shootings that was only at a quaker school. Um He killed all the girls and you know, we'll just leave it at that for now.

Yeah, um those

First off the father and the grandfather of one of the girls Went and talked to his parents

And just sat there and let the parents cry On them for like, you know, like two hours at the funeral of the dude who killed all those girls

Because of course he he killed himself like they always do More of the quaker family showed up than his own family right now

Every year they take up a collection which has like four million dollars in it right now for The killer's kids to go to school when they turn 18, this was only a few years ago

They making the collection they have raised like four million dollars For the killer's kids to go to school and think about this for a minute.

That's forgiveness That's what that's what grace looks like that. I mean, that's Now That is a level of sanctification

That has i'm sure as it has me helped Countless people come to know the lord more

And let me just say it like this That would not have happened if Their children were still alive

Now it's not a quid Pro quo i'm not suggesting that God forces things what

I am saying is god always has a purpose even when I can't see it And he Always has a positive purpose even when someone else has a negative purpose

So god doesn't have to react and make the most of that situation. I can tell you from before time began

That that killing including dalmer and all that stuff that killing was in the mind of god before he said let there be

Now how that always works, I don't know but here's what I do know Sometimes he lets me see what his plan was not the killer's plan his plan was

There was a purpose behind it and if me 1500 miles away from that event can be encouraged on what forgiveness looks like because of that event

That helps me see at least a little bit of what the purpose was of what the purpose was and that's enough Because there's probably someone else who got saved because they saw that forgiveness and that grace, you know,

I mean So you think about the family's grieving at those processes? They're they're leaning on one another they're talking to each other

They're how are you getting through this only by god i'm getting through this, you know, like it's horrifying god

That's the only way i'm making it, you know Imagine how many of those families when their father said hey, we're going to this guy's funeral.

Yeah I mean just for a moment like are you kidding me? and how many people's

Mindset of what forgiveness looked like forever changed Including ours think about everyone who hears the story.

That's right. Think about that guy the killer's parents Maybe for the first time they got to see what actual forgiveness looks like I mean, golly

So that's love. Yeah, I think they got love right? It's love like they got to see what love was

Unconditionally from somebody they didn't even know right and i'll share a bit of my testimony About this with this is that I I had somebody in my life who did something

Who did a lot of things awful to somebody that I love? and I have an accountability group.

I meet with them every every week and my dad had told me like hey I believe that god's gonna bring this person to repentance and I believe that you know

This and that he was having faith that god was gonna serve it and I was very angry

About the things that I learned that had transpired And one of the guys in my group says hunter.

Do you hate this person? And I don't remember if I answered I because in reality the answer was yes, but I had never thought in those terms uh, and they were just like Who because I was upset at the idea of him getting saved and They said who do you think god's grace is for?

And I was right right there is like god. It was literally felt like god punched me in the stomach Yeah, like I felt that like You sure wasn't the hip socket

And then all I could think about And I obviously I don't know i'm not great with passages.

I tend to google the quotes Uh, i've done that. I do it all of this fold.

Yes. John 10. Got it. If it's in a gospel Lord help me because like i'm not gonna know

Uh, but luke 5 31 and 32 Jesus answered them. It is not the healthy who need a doctor.

That's right, but the sick that's right I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance I tell people all the time you don't get in the shower clean

Right, you go to church when you have problems you go to church to get clean like that's you go to god

Exactly. It's like god didn't come to serve those in the pews. He came to serve those who were killing.

That's right Right, so it's like who is god's grace for if not for jeffrey, don't that's right if not for those who

Are furthest away from him and will bring the most glory to him and will receive the most love.

Yeah Amen Good stuff All right. We have one final question guys and we have time we're doing good.

We have time we've got eight questions even Three that one was a heavy one. Yeah, it got a little deep.

That was awesome though. Yeah. Yeah, that was great My spirit feels fast. No, I feel good now. Yeah. Yeah, it's like, you know stand up a little taller

As tall as I can to stand up, you know Mike and I solid four or five michael. Mike and I were at the grizzlies game friday night.

Yeah, and stop it. We got to What? I'm, just kidding. Oh, no, don't start with those.

I wasn't gonna that whole episode from four seasons ago miss me with that but You know, it's funny.

We got to get really close And those guys are a bit taller he's talking about to the court not like me and him got close

I thought like we're already I mean, we're already close. I thought you were buyers does that the people? Yeah, those greasy cheeseburgers will lay you down man

They've been brought into that grease for like 982 years Anyone watching us who's not from memphis you just if you come here forget graceland

Just let me take you to dyers. All right I mean they moved the grease in six armored trucks and they put it in one and they all went different directions

So you didn't know which the grease was in maybe this is real the grease Actually, it's a hundred really happened.

It's 110. It's not a joke when they moved to downtown They moved the pot of grease, you know the police and brought it downtown, you know

You know the movie like the heist where they have different armored cars going different directions. They got that from dyers cheeseburgers

Dude come on, man. That's insane. I had no idea. Yeah My mom's been telling me that story since I was like 10

So i've been a dyers fan for going on 15 months die hard dyers.

Yeah All right last question I believe this is actually from the same person

Why send people to hell for the sin of not believing when they obviously start believing right after they die when they're judged and presumably

Would have believed and been good christians had god chosen to give them slightly more compelling evidence.

Okay Is it okay if I go first? I mean, I don't really have much You okay if I go first, of course,

I want you to read it again. I'm going to read it one more time Loud and clear hunter because i'm feeling like it. Let's go

Why send people to hell for the sin of not believing when they obviously start believing right after they die stop.

No, they want it No, they want it because I would bet 98 percent of people when he said

Start believing think they mean the existence of god, right? Believing the existence of god does not make someone a christian demons believe in god, right?

People who die And go to hell do not start believing five minutes later Maybe if they were an atheist they now believe in the existence of god

So does satan but that's not that is not saving faith Yeah, this notion that people quit sinning and all of a sudden love god when they go to hell

It's not in the bible. It's not in the bible Salvation is trusting in the work of god salvation is

Believing committing your life to god so that is absent from the bible where people go to hell and then all of a sudden repent um

It's just not number two It said why I want to why would people why would god send people to hell when they would have believed that's not true and then he said when they obviously start believing they had more evidence when when they are judged and Presumably would have believed and been good christians had god chosen to give them slightly more compelling evidence

Because the person who asked this question still thinks it's an intellectual understanding of his existence when it's not the hard evidence

Let me just make sure I say this Christianity Salvation is not an intellectual problem.

It's a heart problem. Yeah It's just not now god can use the mind to bring people to the gospel

In fact intellectual arguments for the bible and god's existence have deepened my faith more and more

But it is a heart thing That's what it boils down to This is true of how you treat your children

If Maybe if I stood up, but it don't matter if you tell your kid to sit down And they sit down with attitude and go

They complied they didn't obey Because you're really focused on the heart of it.

Not just the action of doing it Which is what you should be doing, right? It's not just Just Complying It's obeying from the heart

So so there's that so no No, no They would not start believing right after that.

They would they would not the existence of god is not salvation. It is commitment To what he's done and trusting that for salvation

When you say let's say they're not they wouldn't believe I think they would absolutely believe what they've been told was true at that point because now they're in hell

Right, you sort of saying like they would believe i'm not saying they wouldn't They might have known But now they would offer the opportunity to believe because it's real the consequence is is real christopher hitchenss

Said if heaven is real, it will be hell for me. I don't want to meet or near that god No Until he's in hell frank turrick did a until he's in hell

He asked a question of somebody said if you knew for a fact 100 And you had no doubt in your mind that god was real.

Would you follow him? No I asked someone two months ago in the saw gym I told him the gospel about i've said salvation no to that question

All right, well let let me bring the scripture into it

He said I said isn't that great news he said no who is god to tell me what is sin and what is not in other words

When I say a heart problem stone They would believe that he is god

That doesn't mean they would submit to him joyfully out of that I mean it might still be a screw you who are you to tell me what to do?

I mean, that's that is But that attitude can be present

That Attitude in some form is present in all unbelievers even us before salvation read your passage

So actually, uh to elaborate, uh on pastor Josiah's point the scripture that backs up everything he just said is romans 10 9

If you confess with your mouth that jesus is lord and believe in your heart that god raised him from the dead you will be saved

Confessing with your mouth that jesus is lord lord meaning master you are confessing and Submitting to lord as your master.

So when he says the heart problem and when mike says hey, even the demons believe Great, but they don't you can believe but they don't submit.

That's a heart. They have not confessed him as their master They know but they don't know that's right then believing in your heart that god raised him from the dead is

Believing that god is everyone everything that he says he is and has the power that he claims to have believing that he is all those things and Submitting to him as your master that is what saves you and so and then on to the point of they wouldn't believe

Here's luke chapter 16. We're starting in verse 19. That's luke 16 starting in verse 19

There was a rich man who would dress in purple and fine linen feasting lavishly every day But a poor man named lazarus covered with sores was left at the gate.

He longed to be filled with that With what fell from the rich man's table, but instead the dogs would come and lick his sores

One day the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried

And being in torment in hades he looked up and saw abraham a long way off with lazarus at his side father abraham

He called out have mercy on me and send lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue

No repentance yet. Just a request to stop torment. No request to stop the pain because I am in agony in this flame

Son abraham said remember that during your life you received your good things just as lazarus received bad things

But now he's comforted here while you're in agony agony Besides all this a great chasm has been fixed between us and you so that those who want to pass over from From here to you cannot neither can those uh cross from There cross over to us father.

He said then I beg you to send him to my father's house This is where this is where you really need to listen I beg you to send him to my father's house because I have five brothers

Warned them so they don't also come to this place of torment But abraham said they have moses and the prophets they should listen to them

No, father abraham. He said but if someone from the dead goes to them, they'll repent

But he told them if they don't listen to moses and the prophets they will not be persuaded if someone rises from the dead

That's like you just hit the queen And you got her out of there No They would not believe with slightly more compelling

Evidence if they won't believe moses in the prophets, they would not believe they would say that's something else It's some other witchcraft craft.

They would they would make up some other excuse, right? I mean, that's just when you are pun intended hellbent on Going against god's will you will

Find any excuse to not believe I mean There have been so many ways when

I didn't want something to be true That I tried to rationalize i'm ahead of maybe there's another reason this happened.

Yeah, I mean it just happens all the time um, so I think one other aspect of it is this

There is a level of finality Where god's mercy ends and his justice reigns.

Yep For the human spirit that's at death So If you lived your whole life unrepentant

Unrepentant Even if you wanted to which you won't because that takes a changed spirit from god

Anyway, even if you wanted to That would be unjust because the bible says just as it was appointed once for man to die and after this comes judgment

Hebrews 9 27 So that's when god's mercy ends and his justice reigns.

Well, you choose He gives you the opportunity to choose with him here Or separate from here if you choose to be separated from him here, then you'll be separated from him there

It's like the titanic's going down and he gives you the lifeboat to get on and you're choosing to play with the band

Yeah, you have the choice of free will to jump on that lifeboat and live to see another day You chose to be with the world and not with the few that are trying to guide you the right way

Yeah, and I think what pastor said about jesus being god being just that's absolutely very important Very important the forgiveness of sins and you said this earlier the forgiveness of sins does not mean that there is no punishment for sins

And we have the opportunity to say is jesus taking my punishment or am I? And we can't somebody's taking it right?

We can't choose nowhere I'm gonna pay for my own sin. And then when the time comes all

It's over put it on him let him have my sin i'm i'm sorry, you know, like give it to him

We gave you that opportunity. Yeah that that happened with my daughter can't put salvation on layaway, but that's right

But this ain't a pawn shop. Sorry. Yeah that happened with my daughter Hey, if I see you do that again, or no, no.

Hey, come here If she don't come here And then all of a sudden I say it with a deeper voice come here she come here

Oh, sorry, daddy and runs i'm like no, you see you see you can't all of a sudden when you realize yeah

Daddy's watching right. See that ain't right like oh, I better do right now. That's not integrity We need to operate from integrity.

I made her She's just she's just learned how to write. I made her write the word integrity

Uh 40 times. Hey, let's give ava a prop. She passed kindergarten went to first grade Only four mistakes or whatever you said, that's a that's a win bro, like that's huge Like I love the passage in a minute and a half and only had four mistakes and then that Count the mistakes.

Oh, I do not have a doubt in my mind that you do not that you count the mistakes. I got it

She said no passes. She said then and it was they like three out of four letters ain't good enough That's the end in a while, honey.

You got no exactly don't miss another one. Don't miss another one She's she hesitated and I counted it was like, okay, that's fine.

She went she said there they You corrected it.

That's a win. Okay Well guys, if you liked what you heard today, if you didn't like what you heard today leave a comment

You can always ask questions. Please leave a comment with your question We also have an email address listen point taken at gmail .com

send it in there. We have a instagram page Uh point taking christian podcast give us a dm but most importantly guys, uh submit to god

Pray for one another speak truth speak life into people live to live your life every day to glorify god

Don't ask him To test you ask him for strength when he does Get on the lifeboat, you know,

I can tell you get on the lifeboat, but until next time deuces That's a king of taut right there