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Boom bop pal. Welcome back to the point-taking podcast guys. My name is hunter. I'm hosting this podcast today. I love it and joining. A nice a little setup. That was good. Joining today is the illustrious the Knowing of many things Pastor Josiah Shipley, I thought that was his.
And then also joining us. The also illustrious the owner and operator of his own company major league mechanical. There's no shirt, you're right. We're just hating on me for no reason. Operating out of Memphis, Tennessee.
Let's go brother Mike. What's up, Mike? Let's get it. What is it, man? We're happy to have Mike back on the podcast for a second time. Well, we tried three one time. It didn't work. But now we got it now we got it back in and we have some really cool topics for us today guys.
We have a couple of different questions coming from a couple different places. Mostly found online one of which was brought to us by your wife.
Yes.
Which we will open with because it's super important for this church specifically because we have a ministry here at this church. The question is What is combat sport? Sinful or we could say is combat sport.
God honoring is combat sport some type of issue and so we here at Witten have.
A.
Ministry called SOG MMA. That's soldiers of God MMA that we do. We fight for the mic. So let's open up conversation guys. Combat sports is is it mentioned in the Bible, you know,. What what what are we looking at here?
As far as is it mentioned in the Bible?
But.
It's not mentioned in the Bible. You should have an MMA ministry in your church. Paul does say what he says? Aren't there many that run the race but only one gets a prize. Paul didn't believe in participation trophies, by the way.
And then the next verse he says. I believe it's the same passage. When I run I intend to win when I box. I'm not boxing as if I'm beating the air.
Right.
Now Paul said that when I box I do not boxes if I'm trying to hit there. In other words, I'm trying to hit somebody. Now, I don't think you can take from that. Yes, that is a a God-centered command that you have to have a boxing ministry in your church.
But I think the point behind it would be this. What's your intention, yep, and the intention of this church is Has been and always will be to use that as a ministry to reach people who more than likely otherwise would not come to the church and Then to use that to enter a realm of the culture Completely different from the way everyone else approaches it.
So for example, we have an MMA ministry here and some of our church members use the gym to work out which is excellent.
Lot of the people that come are training For a myriad of different reasons. A lot of young men, obviously From our community and then some of our people including myself previously have competed in the local MMA scene here at in Memphis and the idea behind SOG here at Witten is to Enter into that realm that seem carrying ourselves differently, but everyone else does.
We're not gonna go in there cursing yelling. So I'm gonna kill you. We're gonna compete we're gonna win and Then we will use The platform we have in that scene to give glory to God and not ourselves. Which unfortunately is rather rare in the mixed martial arts combat sports scene.
So that's the idea behind it.
Okay, so I have a question for Mike, but before I do that.
Are we currently aware of Hector. Is Hector still around. We haven't done Hector since you left so we need to bring him back.
Okay, so Hector idea what Hector is. Okay, so Hector is a persona. Born about was it Andrew? I think I believe it. Yes. Yeah was a persona that played the.
Alternate opinion. Okay, so let's when someone is Hector. They're giving you pain. That's not really theirs and then they morph back to themselves later. So yeah, so is this D &D?
No, no, that's a sin.
You're the dragon slayer.
Showed my exuberant knowledge for Dungeons and dragons I knew I had so much content to contribute there for y 'all toss me one of those hats. Yeah. That's not the Hector hat. It is today.
Anything can be a heck. I believe you are listening.
If you're listening and not watching have you seen the noggin on this guy, why did you give him that hat?
Well, see it's not the noggin. First of all, it's the I used to do that headphones. There we go.
So he's currently wearing the head threats everything coming out of his mouth might be.
Well, actually the first thing coming out of my mouth is gonna be scripture. So. Because being Hector doesn't mean that I'm evil or that I'm wrong. It just means that I have the opposite opinion. Okay, so.
So you said. You said and correct me if I'm wrong that we're entering in these arenas. With a different attitude with a different perspective.
We're coming in there to glorify God. Yes. Okay, so if I were to be.
The arguer here and I'm gonna be Hector. I'm gonna quote Psalms chapter 1. How happy is a man who does not follow the advice of the wicked or take the path of the sinners or join a group? of mockers instead his delight is in the law of Man.
This is a different thing that I have memorized. Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly nor standeth in the way of sinners nor sitteth in the seat Of the scornful but his delight is in the law and the Lord Is in the law of the Lord and in this law doth he meditate day and night?
Yep. So yeah King James's. I can't even read it in a different translation because I've memorized that as a child in Psalms It works wonderfully. Yeah in Psalms. It works wonderfully. So Basically it says don't stand in the way of sinners don't sit in the seat of the scornful don't be in the midst of All the sin and where the sin is.
So, how can we marry the idea of not? walking in the counsel of the ungodly and Being in the midst of the sin. And what you were saying.
By recognizing that Hector added the phrase being in the midst of sin that is not in Psalm 1 1. Amen Would be the primary way. Otherwise, Jesus would need to repent as he Aided unbelievers houses often so on so forth.
Blessed is the man who does not stand in the way of a sinner Sit up the seat of scornful or walk in the counsel of the ungodly.
Yeah.
That's exactly the point that we're that's where you should be.
Because you're trying to spread the seed where it needs to be spread the right physically.
That's where I should be but mentally and spiritually. I'm doing something different. Exactly. So this is when Paul says I guess it was to the church at Corinth. He goes when I told you to not Associate with the sexual immoral I didn't mean those of this world.
Otherwise, you'd have to leave the world and that's wherever you go. I meant with those claiming to be in the household of God that are living however, they want and feel no type of way about.
It.
But the point is.
Um.
Yeah, if we were doing that and we looked acted and talked just like everyone else and I would say it's a wasted ministry.
It's a it's a wasted. It's not a ministry. The whole point of SOG is to fight for the mic. Exactly. So you're not only just they see you in the room. It's what you say after doing said it's you get to give your message.
So the whole point of fighting for the mic. So think about this for a minute.
So We're free not to say that if someone's paying you dues to train you like that means that all right, okay. But we're free. It is genuinely a ministry of the church that we're trying to develop young men.
To be godly young men young boys a lot of times a lot of times.
Yeah, in fact last week we had 25 people there. 16 were boys under the age of 20. That's what I'm saying. That's crazy. So cuz I said all you guys 20 or 20 years and under y 'all gonna move that stuff.
16 people. There's like eight of us left.
Hear what you said, so I felt.
Crap. There's only four of us left. We walk in.
We walk in we ask our opponent if we can pray for with him before we go. We compete we win at least that's the intention. And When we are interviewed instead of talking about how incredible we are and nobody can hang with us and we're whatever.
We shine light and give glory to another to God. That's the mindset behind it.
And.
That's a balance I think a lot of people don't recognize. Christians can have a desire to compete and win not come in the second place and win. But genuinely do. I mean it says in whatever you do in word or deed you have something done for the Lord and not for.
So I will say that when it comes to competition that is an easy way to make something about yourself. So we're trying to do it a different way. That's the idea behind it. And just to put that in perspective The amount of people That I have gotten to share the gospel with encourage pray for invite the service etc because of sodom and may is Is incalculable to me.
I've been doing it for I don't know 12 years now and it is Hundreds, I mean just over this world. So that's what I would say to that.
So listen, my wife asked this question and the biggest thing of her concern was it's not she understands the what we're trying to do but the act of actually achieving that is. Combat sport. Oh, yeah, like you're going in here and knocking somebody out.
You're breaking somebody's nose. You're breaking an arm, you know. We just had Danny Barlow go and break his arm in the fight in UFC and he can like what she's saying is How is that act? Yeah glorifying God.
With the process it takes to actually be the light in the dark room. Like how do you how can you justify the actual battle MMA sports the physical contact? Where there's a risk of hurting killing Damaging something very bad.
Even if you're trying to do it the right way. That's her. That's our biggest concern.
I think and do it without using Genesis 32 because I'm going to after you. Don't I think I.
Think. The answer to that is yes, though I think that's a genuinely good question. Like for example right now if you were to rewind this you saw me adjusting my headset because my left ear is killing me because I've cauliflower ear because I've been hitting the head so much the past three weeks that it keeps swelling up.
So this isn't super comfortable draining. Cauliflower is not fun, bro. I have done it.
On average two or three times a week for two months. I got a grown man. I got to figure something else out. Oh Ava Naomi watching her super hopeful. Well, yeah throwing up in a corner. So anyway, no, no, oh, that's cool.
Hey, can I tell you get your hand away?
So.
When we train.
This is something I'm not speaking of Marissa. This is something that I think a lot of people who have not done physical combat sports for don't understand. They think you have to be mad at each other while you do that kind of stuff.
No, it's like hey, man. Let's do a couple rounds afterwards. All right, let's go to I hop and yeah, and let's go read the Bible afterwards. So it's not that training was as far as so as far as the camaraderie of The actual group there is no ill will you can train combat?
Whatever and there's no ill will hatred everyone understands. There's a risk of injury and that's okay. It's physical competition now as far as competing. As far as competing outside of just training for each other.
I Think there is a difference between two guys agreeing. Signing saying hey, let's go in here and let's compete. That's different than meeting each other in a back alley.
You know what I mean that that's that's different to me or a bar fight.
Mike I was like hey Mike. Have you ever been in a fight? I'm gonna say how many were sinless. Absolutely a.
Bunch of fights. Don't look at the criminal record. I've changed man. I can I guess only speak for me. I.
Had ten amateur fights. Never once was I like man. I really want to hurt this guy. I want to make it where you can't go to work tomorrow. I want to never once right. Even people that spoke quite ill of me.
Never once. That door might not be reciprocated on the other side. It might not. That's not your job.
It might not be and I'm it's probably not it probably is not. And that's okay. Because I have a goal in there and it is to win but it's to win with a bigger cause than just winning. Mm-hmm. So yeah about you, right?
So I don't think any risk of injury Is a reason. Not to do something. I just don't misunderstand. I understand the risk is much higher in combat sports and it would be in a ministry where you're mending quilts.
But I will say the least I would say.
Get stabbed plenty of times doing that. Yeah, that's a heart of yourself. You'll bleed just as much.
I had someone one time telling me you shouldn't do things that risk injury. It shows. Just respect for your body God has given me, you know, you better live in a bubble is. Do you go on mission trips right to third world countries?
Did you drive here this morning? I say did you go to your car today? I mean, you live in Memphis.
And I use this during When sickness is going around the people like maybe we shouldn't go to church. Everyone in this room can think of someone they know who has died in a car wreck. Our city decides to put it on.
Signs going over. I -40 of how many people have died in a car wreck. Yes.
As you tell me to look up here and read a analog sign it's not like yeah easy to read a lot.
But we risk that now I understand. Don't misunderstand what I'm saying. I understand you have driven your car Many times without getting hurt. There's only so many times you can go train in May and not feel some type of pain and I understand that it's usually limited To one but feeling pain having one feeling pain is not sinful.
Causing someone else to feel pain if it's purposeful and agreed upon is not sinful. Otherwise, we need to go ahead and get rid of spankings and sprints and push-ups for punishment for your children. So there's a purpose to the pain and it's agreed upon by both.
That's the difference I think and I'm hope I'm not talking too much. That's the I don't say you're gonna go Genesis.
Well, yeah, but on that before I say is we would have to go and Say that God has done something wrong to us because God Thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. Yeah, right. God chase chastens chastens.
Chastens chastens the ones he loves. Jason did chase.
Chastens the ones he loves. And I can tell you that the pain that comes from that. Yeah, I would choose injury from MMA. Every single day of every single week. Mm-hmm. So I'm like, all right, I mean we're Measuring things here and we also have to say we would have to blame God if we say that this is a sin.
I believe you'd have to say well.
So it just comes down to the intention I think so of your heart the intention active what y 'all are doing.
I think it's the intention in the way you carry yourself. For example to your wife's point if I have someone come in who's being a wild man trying to hurt people like during training. Like intentionally trying to hurt people that person's not participating in salt.
That's not what it's about.
This is about making each other better or you put him in the ring with you and I'm in the mouth. He understands he's humbled and that has happened to everybody. Mike Tyson. Everyone has a plan until they're punched in the mouth.
It's a hundred percent true. Reset. Where's the man? I used to be able to do it so much on PlayStation. Let's see pause up X over X. That was restart.
Exactly. Yes, sir. All right, so last one that I have for this is Genesis chapter 32 and we're gonna start in verse 24. Jacob was left alone and a man wrestled with him until daybreak When the man saw that he could not defeat him. He struck Jacob's hip socket and they wrestled and dislocated his hip.
You're a genius for thinking of this one. Thank you, brother.
Then he said to Jacob let me go. For its daybreak, but Jacob says I will not let you go unless you bless me. What is your name? The man asked Jacob your name will no longer be Jacob. It'll be Israel because you have struggled with God and with men and have prevailed.
So it's what we call a Christophany. We can. Let's see. Is it too much to ask for the for like the word to appear? Oh, we can get that.
All right. Can we point at it? It's like Christophany.
It's an appearance it's an it's an appearance of flesh. Pre-incarnate Jesus pulling up. All right.
So we see the rest. Yeah, I've used that word a lot of times. Pull up. You got a problem pull up.
We see that he wrestles with Jacob and Jacob's got the skill and what he strikes his hip socket. Dislocates it right. He strikes it. They wrestle a little bit more and it's like ow, it's daybreak. Let me go out.
So, you know, there is risk with With fighting and with all that but you know. We were talking about dislocating the hip socket very purposely. Like he struck his hip socket and wrestled a little bit and waited for that thing to pop.
So with no Campbell's clinic around right this dude happened to know the anatomy pretty dang.
Well, it's almost like he created it. It's almost like how many times in your MMA career. Have you popped a hip socket?
That's a special kind of move right there. The guy is either from China or is Jesus.
Yeah, he knows all the little pressure point, yeah.
So what you're using there is that Jesus to teach someone a lesson used Physical pain used physical pain for that horse and injury even but his intent was for a purpose for a good correct.
I'm saying good. That's what I'm saying. That's the entire purpose of which I'll change his name to Israel.
You know, I could tell you people. We need to move on the next question I can tell you people in that gym whose lives have been changed because of that and Whose lives are currently changing and they're not even aware of the process of they don't even know.
I'm I've been part of one.
No, no, no, man, it's like Super exciting to see his heart change like it's super cool. It really is really is. And I don't know if his heart would have I don't even think that person would have been here If it wasn't for soggy mimic, I can tell you what that's what I mean.
So that's just a it's a perfect example of one small inkling. I've only been at this church 18 to 18 months two years and I've seen growth in the sog ministry. You know sanctification.
Man so I think to tie a little bow on this question. We should say is combat sport a sin. Inherently, I would say no. I would say the attitude and the spirit that you bring into it will always dictate What is profitable what is good, right.
If you come in with a self inflating? attitude and Degrading towards others attitude then yeah, what you're doing is absolutely it bears no fruit. Look at the fruit that you bear. You don't necessarily have to be part of an MMA ministry to make MMA non-sinful.
However, your heart needs to be.
Correct. And your intention to be checked as strange as it sounds to someone who doesn't do combat sports. Your intention has to be not to tear other people down but build them up as awkward as that sounds.
And then sometimes you have.
To break someone down to visit them up. That's a. Exactly. They're so shelled so hard that you got to tear that that shell off to get to what's where they can. Rexy here.
All right question in tender hearted that I love that this morning. That was great question number two and this one comes.
Straight from the online. This is Quora, which is like reddit for less cool people or even more cool people. I don't even know.
Really cooler is it. Wow is it spelled with you? Yeah, it's like a question.
I thought it was I thought I'm not even gonna tell you what I thought. Just go ahead when I write that. So it's not Cora. Don't forget three episode ten episodes back public school. Check it out.
Okay is Jeffrey Dahmer. Mm-hmm. A man who accepted Jesus on death row after kidnapping little boys.
Raping them murdering them sodomizing their corpses eating their corpses and using their skeletons for decoration. Really in heaven now.
That's a youch. I think what up from all three of us would be unanimous If Jeffrey Dahmer Genuinely repented of his sins three weeks before he died or what? I don't know. Whatever. Yeah, whatever. If he genuinely printed the answer is absolutely.
Yes, because there's never been anyone who genuinely repents Whoever found Jesus to be anything other than a Savior. Now I can't tell you that happened. Sorry if the question is is he and I have no idea I can tell you that he certainly was not on the way there During his life outside of prison.
I can guarantee you that that's not the works of a believer. What happened before he died I don't know but the answer to that is the exact same as a thief on the cross. Thief is not exactly a great translation there.
But then there was a bad dude on the cross next to Jesus. Upon his genuine repentance Jesus said see in paradise today to be with me in paradise now. The proof of That had that guy lived. Let's say that Romans I've never fruit we would have seen a changed life for the next six months that we would have seen that.
So if Jeffrey Dahmer Genuinely printed repented and got out whatever we would have seen a changed life.
Well, we'll say thank God that we're not God because I would say there's an absolutely no way that you're being truthful and what you said because look at your look at the What we had to go off of. Yeah, I'm not gonna.
I'm glad that he's way more graceful than I you know. Because it would have been a hard. No for me. Well, we got to remember.
What's done with him is done. We should be far more Fearful for the people who made that profession and lives never changed and currently right now think they're on the way to heaven. Yeah, that's terrifying.
As far as those wicked horrific works that he did. Every scale will be balanced. The Bible talks about severe punishment and hell and and all that stuff. Either Jesus or the individual who committed those Will pay for those sins so that every single scale will be balanced justice will be served.
So yeah I don't know that there's a none of us can know for sure. Not just because we can't read hearts because We didn't have the opportunity to see his life after that right. And I maybe I'm unaware of how early or late this was in His prison sentence.
I don't even remember when he died said on death row. Okay.
Years now was it what is it when he was strapped into the right injection chair or was it four years into the time.
You know, so that's probably as far as we could go into that with the exception of saying Yes, if someone genuinely repents God is powerful enough to save them from all their sin. And here's here's what I'll say about it because.
This speaks and did not necessarily this question.
I mean this question was.
Listed with a whole bunch of other ones so you can kind of understand the heart and intention behind the question and in this case It was bitterness behind these questions, unfortunately. However, there have been many people who were not bitter and just wondering who've asked this exact same question.
But I'm gonna I'm gonna go ahead and address the heart of that question is fairness. That's what a lot of people are worried about. How is that right? How is that fair? He can do all those things and then just say sorry and be done with it.
Well, first of all, it is not fair and that is the entire point of the Bible and the gospel of Jesus Christ. The realization here that you need is that it is just so more much easier to see and accept with the case of Jeffrey Dahmer that he was in need of a Savior than it is to look at yourself and that's right.
I need a Savior because Jeffrey Dahmer had Went to boom, you know to the public Extreme side, you know and you struggle with and I struggle with you know. Since it might be more private or just a life sans Jesus a life without Salvation is a life in need of salvation and no one who has ever received salvation Received it fairly ever.
God got the crap end of the stick. He's the one who died and he is saving a whole bunch of people who Weren't repenting. He said father forgive them for they know not what they do. That's as they're stabbing him as they're you know, killing him, right?
He didn't wait for you to start attending church. He didn't wait for you to say you're sorry. He didn't wait for you to even realize it that you were doing anything wrong. He died for you as you were in the midst of sin.
So to say is he really in heaven like that's just messed up. Well, it's actually messed up that any of us get to go to heaven. That's what's messed up.
To dig on that question. I think it would be more appropriate Like how would God allow that that stuff to happen? Like that's that's where they're coming. Like I think I'm assuming here. It's like How would an all-knowing all-loving God allow those acts to happen and then allow him to come into the kingdom?
Right, you know like it's bigger than Repentance and for that question, I believe I understand scripture but I'm saying like as a Somebody that doesn't believe I would be like, why do I want to be part of that?
Right, you can do whatever you want and you got to get out of free jail card like just say you're sorry and Gone in there. Why you want to you know, I'm saying why like that's I think that's the Biggest part of that question.
It's not if he's in heaven It's like he knew that was gonna happen he you know Everything threw out all that and then at the end of the day all going God knew he was gonna repent and come get in Heaven, how did he allow that to happen?
Yep. That's that's where I'm hurting like that's like.
Ouch, you know, let's talk about that. But but as we go into that one little side note remember there's a difference between God forgiving someone their sin and Someone receiving Earthly punishment For crimes they committed.
Yes. So for example, it can be righteous it can be righteous for someone to be correctly put to death for their crimes here on earth and Still be forgiven for God on repentance on death row or whatever repentance and forgiveness does not equal a Removal of all consequences.
Yes. I mean, that's just not how it works. I mean, that's that's not how it works. If you feel that's the way you're to do it You're gonna have a hard time reading the Bible you're gonna have a hard time learning how to discipline your kids because Forgiveness you can forgive your children and there still be yeah, and there's still gonna forgive them tomorrow and the next day Forgiven the day but forgiveness doesn't mean a removal of okay, I forgive you.
Yeah. But someone's still washing that wall. Yeah.
Close up. Yeah, you're gonna do whatever. Yeah.
As far as how could such a loving God allow such horrific acts of Atrocities to happen, you know that question has been asked. Hopefully by all of us at some point. It's called the odyssey. And you can go a lot of ways about answering it.
But here's just a few helpful ones and you guys jump in whenever you feel like it. When you talk about how could God allow things to happen? My answer to that person is always the same. Okay. What would you have preferred God done and I don't sit as a trap or trick or whatever.
What would you have preferred God done? Sometimes the answer that question helps answer the question itself. For example. And I'll shift and we'll come back to this exact one. The Canaanites are a good example.
The Canaanites were Doing horrific things as a culture. I Mean killing their young. I'm just horrific things and God told Abraham in 400 years. They're not gonna have repented and I'm bringing you back to take this land.
That's exactly what happened. God brought the people out of Egypt out of slavery. Which he put them into slavery for their sin and selling the brother into slavery. Jacob yeah, and excuse me, Joseph brings them out and they go and they conquer Canaan.
That is God putting an end to the horrific things that the Canaanites were doing. Now normally the response given to me is so he killed them. I said, yes, he justly judged them for what they have been doing for 400 years whose children did the same thing.
Who's grandchildren who's great going and they'll say and they'll say something. Well, that's not fair. I'm like, okay I see three options. God can continue to let it happen for forever. If That happened you would say God's unfair 400 years there were people saying why is God letting exactly if God forced them to do things they didn't want to do and Robotically made them do X Y Z.
When I show you examples of the Bible you say that's not fair because he violates their free will. I mean even Bruce Almighty wasn't allowed to do that on another member. And you don't like that when he judges them properly for the dead you say it's too harsh so.
Stuff like that's easy. What makes this one hard is the victims. Were and I don't mean spiritually innocent, but we're innocent of any crime. You understand they were innocent of any earthly crime. My answer that would be threefold one.
Most clearly, I don't know. That's where I'm at. It says that one day I will and I am satisfied With at least that it says one day. I will not have to to we live in a fallen world and there are evil Evils all around us as a result of that fallen world we as a humanity have chosen evil and God is allowing us to live in the world that we chose over him.
That's the ultimate answer now people don't like that answer. That's the truth that's the ultimate answer that we have rejected his way and So God is allowing us to live in the world that we chose and when we don't like the results.
When we don't like the results we blame.
God or.
Everything else other than ourselves. But this is the sample we chose and you know, sometimes people say well, it's not the sample I chose. Well, actually it is. Because there's only two possible things.
There's autonomy and theonomy. Theonomy is God's law. Autonomy is self-law if we are not submitted the God's law. Then we're still a submitted to man's law. And this is the part that people got to recognize.
Why is what Jeffrey Dahmer did wrong now if there is no God and There is no standard of God's law. Let's push this to the side like our culture is done. Let's push that over there. Why is it wrong? You don't even have a scale to go off.
You don't even have I can tell you why it's wrong. I Can tell you why it's wrong because rape is a capital offense and exodus. Because murder is prohibitive of God's law because taking advantage of the young is prohibited by Jesus.
Okay. Yeah. You can't say that you have a standard and just to be straight with you and this one always makes atheists mad. Luckily, I don't care. Think about this for a moment and just hear me for a moment if all we are is super evolved.
Monkeys.
Super evolved protoplasm that bags of mostly water gotcha and Neurons are firing off in our brain. Which force our actions our thoughts our emotions. Then why is what he did wrong? Seriously why if you say because it's against the law.
Well kind of depends on where you go because unfortunately some of those things he did are not against the law in other countries.
Just kind of goes back to you taking dudes wallet. Yeah, or you gave you know, yeah I tell me this is right. How do you know that this is wrong? Where do you get that that to me taking this from you because I can overpower you and I'm bigger than you I can take Your walk from you.
How do you how do you justify the exact correct? So that's really the question.
So yeah, I'm gonna reask it just to make sure people understand. The question is how can such a loving God allow? things like this to happen. One he doesn't have a purpose in those actions. He has a purpose in allowing those actions to happen and I'll see it one day and I'm I'm satisfied with that.
Two it's a result of a fallen world that we have chosen and are continually choosing.
Three.
The only reason We can even ask that question is because there's a standard of right and wrong in our minds and then we get it from there. And we get it from this and if you get it from anywhere else.
You actually can't look me in the eye and say what he did was wrong. And I know we'll try and we'll say things like yeah, but it hurt somebody. Well.
Why is that wrong if in other words watch this. If there is no God or if there is a God, but he doesn't have a standard have you ever seen anyone. Anyone ever get on to a lion for eating the young of another lion.
No, because you say it's in his nature. Have you ever seen have you have you seen what hyenas do while it's still alive? No, yeah, okay. Dog eat dog world. We have entire Animals that they only ever get food by stealing.
Yeah, right. Okay. What percentage of animal sex is rape like 90? I mean, it's crazy. Think about it deer season. They're literally running into traffic. That's what they're doing. That's right. Okay now and I'm saying all that not to be funny.
We never say that's wrong, right? But if all we are is evolved from that Then you can't say what he did was wrong. Now hear me I Can say it's wrong not because I'm better than someone else because I have a standard by what says you shall not murder.
You understand absolutely, but if you don't have that standard, you can't even start by saying why it's wrong. You don't even have a starting point.
And we can also talk about and this is something that unless you're saved it might actually make you upset.
What.
Happens gives the most glory to God. And Sometimes in the end in the end in the end and sometimes. What gives the most glory to God is the absolute worst of the worst? Being reconciled to him. And it's like and those who are upset with Christ That makes them more upset.
But those who are seeking God and they say look at the worst of the worst and He can turn to a God that says You can be reconciled to me because I'm just. But I'm kind I'm just. And there will be payment.
But for the sins you've already Jesus has already paid you know. And so what gives the most glory to God. And as Christians we can look at stories like that. I hope it's true. And we can pray. Of course pray that it's true.
But it it's a source of joy because how many people can look at that. Even though he we didn't get to see if his life changed.
We don't know if that actually happened, but we can. I believe God can save someone like that.
We believe that the God we serve can save someone. That's right. That's right. And so that brings a lot of glory to God because not everybody Can say that they know somebody who can reconcile a person like that by that that far golly and fully.
With no Held back aggression none. His sins would be a cast as far as the East is from the West. That's right. Just like anybody else. That's right, and God would rejoice when he walked him. That's right.
You know, it's amazing. Blessed so. Had someone posted this.
Yeah, I'm like why just throw him in the river, you know, right?
But I get it it's beautiful. Someone posted something one time. As you know the Apostle Paul Murdered or helped murder a large amount of Christians before he was a Christian a large amount and When he died Someone posted he was met with applause By those whom he helped kill because they came to recognize what grace was.
That's wild and that's grace. So grace can do that to somebody they can change the heart and that kind of way. And I want to say something.
As far as forgiveness goes. The process of forgiveness for a human for a person. So let's say that I have to forgive. Let's say pastor Josiah and Mike got together and did something awful and I have to forgive them.
That is not a one-time decision. No, you don't forgive somebody once and then all of a sudden everything is good. No, it's a choice. And then and then when you start to feel those feelings again, you're like, oh I must not have ever forgived.
Um, no, you have to make that choice.
Over every time over it's the gift that keeps on giving. That's good, man. Yeah, that's good. That'd preach. Yeah, right. Yeah, you have to. That's a Windsor. My Bible study.
Might be a Sunday sermon. Come on, man. It's just it's the same as with.
You started small I went big, you know, somebody's got swing for defenses, but it's the same as grief comes in waves.
Right, and when you have to forgive because we have a Wicked heart the desires evil. I mean and we it will Tempt you and it will come at you and it will hit you and you have to decide I will put this away I will choose grace.
I will choose forgiveness. Until all of a sudden it doesn't hit you as hard. Right. It's a process God has no process. Mm-hmm. God forgives and It's over. He doesn't have to stop himself and remind himself and get past the pettiness and get past the anger.
God when you come to him with a repenting heart Asking for mercy He gives you mercy and then he gives you grace and then he throws that sin as far as the east is from the west and it's over, you know, a lot of people can't grasp the amount of love and the amount of Grace, it takes that for God to be able to do that.
And so when they see Jeffrey Dahmer Even though he didn't sin against you. It is still hard for you to grasp.
How God can forgive that fully? Let me let me say this first off. You're right that a preach. Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we'll take notes. We'll watch this again and again. Yeah, write it down.
Asterik by this part passage. I've mentioned this a while back. One of God's purposes I said overall. I don't know why in this exact scenario, but I trust there is As hard as this is to hear for people like me.
It is important for God to teach us forgiveness. It's impossible to teach forgiveness if we've never been wronged. Yep. Let's just call it like it is. It's impossible to teach forgiveness and never wrong.
I don't know about the victims families and all that stuff and I I'll be real with you you know when Jesus expresses when he's teaching us to pray in Matthew. That though testing is necessary for proving our faith.
We shouldn't seek it out.
God.
Lead us not into this. Yeah, God don't test me like you tested Abraham. I'm not ready for that, you know. We talk about forgiveness. I can assure you at this stage in my life if I was the father. If that was one of my children.
You know, I gotta be straight. That's not gonna be my attitude. Yeah. Pastor Jeff and one of his sermons on forgiveness a few weeks ago noted the Quaker community in the in the Northeast when one of those School shootings that was only at a Quaker school.
And he killed all the girls and it was leave it at that for now, yeah.
Those.
First off the father and the grandfather of one of the girls. Went and talked to his parents and just sat there and let the parents cry on them feeling, you know, like two hours. At the funeral of the dude who killed all those girls.
Because of course he he killed himself like they always do.
Mm-hmm.
More of the Quaker family showed up than his own family right now. Every year they take up a collection which has like four million dollars in it right now.
For.
The killers kids to go to school when they turn 18. This was only a few years ago. They making the collection they have raised like four million dollars. For the killers kids to go to school and think about this for a minute that's forgiveness.
That's what that's what grace looks like that. I mean, that's.
Now.
That is a level of sanctification. That has I'm sure as it has me helped countless people come to know the Lord more. And Let me just say it like this that would not have happened if Their children were still alive.
Now it's not a quid pro quo. I'm not suggesting that God forces things. What I am saying is God always has a purpose even when I can't see it and He always has a positive purpose even when someone else has a negative purpose.
So God doesn't have to react and make the most of that situation. I can tell you from before time began that that killing including Dahmer and all that stuff that Killing was in the mind of God before he said let there be.
Now how that always works, I don't know but here's what I do know. Sometimes he lets me see what his plan was not the killers plan his plan was and there was a purpose behind it. And if me Fifteen hundred miles away from that event can be encouraged on what forgiveness looks like because of that event That helps me see at least a little bit of what the purpose was.
Of what the purpose was. Pete and that's enough. Because there's probably someone else who got saved because I saw that forgiveness and that grace, you know.
I mean, so you think about the family's grieving at those processes. They're they're leaning on one another they're talking to each other. They're how are you getting through this only by God? I'm getting through this, you know, like it's more fine.
That's the only way I'm making it. You know, imagine how many of those families when their father said hey We're going to this guy's funeral. Yeah, I Mean just for a moment like are you kidding me? And how many?
People's.
Mindset of what forgiveness look like forever changed. Including our think about everyone in that story. That's right. Think about that guy the killers parents. Maybe for the first time they got to see what actual forgiveness looks like.
I mean Kali.
So that's love. Yeah, I think they got love right. It's love like they got to see what love was. Unconditionally, right. I might even know right. And I'll share a bit of my testimony about this with this.
Is that I I had somebody in my life who did something who did a lot of things awful to somebody that I love and I Have an accountability group I made with them every every week and my dad had told me like hey I believe that God's gonna bring this person to repentance and I believe that you know this and that he was having faith that God was gonna serve it and I was very angry about the things that I learned that had transpired and.
One of the guys in my group says hunter. Do you hate this person? And I don't remember if I answered because in reality the answer was yes, but I had never thought in those terms and they were just like who because I was upset at the idea of him getting saved and They said you think God's grace is for and I was right right there is like God.
It was literally felt like God punched me in the stomach. Yeah, like I felt that like.
You sure wasn't the hip socket.
And then all I could think about and I obviously I don't know. I'm not great with passages. I tend to Google.
The quotes I've done that I do it all of this fold. Yes, John 10 got it if it's in a gospel.
Lord help me cuz. But Luke 5 31 and 32 Jesus answered them. It is not the healthy who need a doctor. That's right, but the sick. That's right.
I have not come to call the righteous but senators to repentance. I.
Tell people all the time you don't get in the shower. Clean right. You go to church when you have problems. You go to church to get clean. Like that's you go to God.
Exactly. It's like God didn't come to serve those in the pews. He came to serve those who were killing. That's right. Mm-hmm, right. So it's like who is God's grace for if not for Jeffrey don't that's right if not for those who are Furthest away from him and will bring the most glory to him and will receive the most love.
Amen good. So. All right. We have one final question guys and we have time. We're doing good. We have time. Question. Steven. Three that one was a heavy one. Yeah, you got a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, that was great spirit feels.
No, I feel good now. Yeah. Yeah, it's like, you know stand up a little taller. Yeah, as I can't stand up, you know, Mike and I like four or five.
I go on. Mike and I were at the Grizzlies game Friday night and stop it. We got to. I'm just kidding. Oh, no, don't start with those whole episode. Four seasons ago. Miss me with that. It's funny. We got to get really close and those guys are a bit tall.
He's talking about to the court not like.
We're already close. I thought your bar Dyer's does that. The people yeah, those greasy cheeseburgers will lay you down. They've been brought into that grease for like 982 years.
Anyone watching us who's not from Memphis. You just if you come here forget Graceland just let me take you to Dyer's.
Yeah, they moved the grease in six armored trucks and they put it in one and they all went different directions. So you didn't know which the grease is it? Maybe this is real the grease. Actually, it's a really happen.
It's a hundred. It's not a joke when I moved it downtown.
They moved the pot of grease, you know, the police and brought it downtown, you know.
You know the movie like the heist really. Have you ever armored cars going different directions. They got that from Dyer's cheeseburgers.
Come on, man. That's insane. I had no idea. Yeah.
My mom's been telling me that story since I was like 10. So I've been a Dyer's fan for.
15.
Die-hard Dyer's. Yeah. All right. Last question. I Believe this is actually from the same person. Why send people to hell? For the sin of not believing when they obviously start believing right after they die when they're judged and presumably.
Would have believed and been good Christians had God chosen to give them slightly more compelling evidence.
Yeah, is it okay if I go first? I mean, I don't really have much.
Okay, if I go first, of course, I want you to read it again. I'm gonna read it one more time.
Loud and clear hunter cuz I'm feeling like it. Let's go.
Why send people to hell for the sin of not believing when they obviously start believing right after they die. Stop. No, they want it.
No, they want it because I would bet 98 of people when he said start believing think they mean the existence of God. Right believing the existence of God does not make someone a Christian. Demons believe in God, right?
People who die and go to hell do not start believing five minutes later. Maybe if they were an atheist they now believe in the existence of God so to Satan. But that's not that is not saving faith. Yeah, this notion that people quit sinning and all of a sudden love God when they go to hell.
Not in the Bible. It's not in the Bible. Salvation is trusting in the work of God. Salvation is Believing committing your life to God. So that is absent from the Bible where people go to hell and then all of a sudden repent.
It's just not number two. I said why I want to why would people why would God send people to hell when they would have? Believed that's not true. And then he said when they obviously start believing more and I when when they are judged and.
Presumably would have believed and been good Christians had God chosen to give them slightly more compelling evidence.
Because the person who asked this question still thinks it's an intellectual understanding of is the existence when it's not a hard evidence. Let me just make sure I say this Christianity.
Hmm.
Salvation is not an intellectual problem. It's a heart problem. Yeah, it's just not now God can use the mind to bring people to the gospel.
In.
Fact. Intellectual arguments for the Bible and God's existence have deepened my faith more and more, but it is a heart thing. That's what it boils down to. This is true of how you treat your children.
If.
Maybe if I stood up, but it don't matter if you tell your kid to sit down and. They sit down with that you know, huh? They complied they didn't obey. Because you're really focused on the heart of it. Not just the action of doing it, which is what you should be doing, right?
It's not just Complying it's obeying from the heart. So so there's that so no no. No, they would not start believing right after that. They would they would not. The existence of God is not salvation.
It is commitment To what he's done and trusting that for salvation.
When you say let's say they're not they wouldn't believe. I Think they would absolutely believe what they've been told was true at that point because now they're in hell. Right. You said I'm saying like they would believe.
I'm not saying they wouldn't. They might have known. But now they would offer the opportunity to believe because it's real. The consequences is real. Christopher Hitchens.
Said if heaven is real it will be hell for me. I don't want to mean we're in near that God.
No until he's in hell. Frank Turek did until he's in hell.
He asked a question of somebody said if you knew for a fact 100 and you had no doubt in your mind that God was.
Real, would you follow him? No, I asked someone two months ago in the song gym. I.
Told him the gospel and about I've said salvation noted that question, but.
All right, well let let let me bring the scripture into.
He said I said isn't that great news. He said no. Who is God. To tell me what a sin and what is not. In other words. When I say a heart problem stone, they would believe that he is God. That doesn't mean they would submit to him joyfully out of that.
I mean it might still be a screw. You who are you to tell me what to do? I'm that's that is. But that attitude can be present. That attitude in some form is present in all unbelievers even us before salvation.
Read your passage.
So actually to elaborate on Pastor Josiah's point the scripture that backs up everything He just said is Romans 10 9 if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him From the dead you will be saved.
Confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord Lord meaning master you are confessing and Submitting to Lord as your master. So when he says the heart problem and when Mike says, hey even the demons believe Great, but they don't you can believe but they don't submit.
That's a heart.
They have not confessed him as their master. I know but they don't know. It's right.
Then believing in your heart that God raised him from the dead is Believing that God is everyone everything that he says he is and has the power that he claims to have believing that he is all those things and Submitting to him as your master.
That is what saves you and so and then on to the point of they wouldn't believe. Here's Luke chapter 16. We're starting in verse 19. That's Luke 16 starting in verse 19. There was a rich man who would dress in purple and fine linen Feasting lavishly every day.
But a poor man named Lazarus covered with sores was left at the gate. He longed to be filled with that With what fell from the rich man's table, but instead the dogs would come and lick his sores. One day the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's side.
The rich man also died and was buried and Being in torment in Hades He looked up and saw Abraham a long way off with Lazarus at his side. Father Abraham. He called out have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue.
No repentance yet. Just a request to stop torment. No request to stop the pain because I am in agony in this flame.
Son Abraham said remember that during your life you received your good things just as Lazarus received bad things. But now he's comforted here while you're in agony agony. Besides all this a great chasm has been fixed between us and you so that those who want to pass over from from here to.
You cannot neither can those cross from there cross over to us. Father He said then I beg you to send him to my father's house. This is where this is where you really need to listen. I beg you to send him to my father's house because I have five brothers Warned them so they don't also come to this place of torment.
But Abraham said they have Moses and the prophets. They should listen to them. No father Abraham He said but if someone from the dead coat goes to them, they'll repent. But he told them if they don't listen to Moses and the prophets.
They will not be persuaded if someone rises from the dead. Mm-hmm. That's like you just hit the Queen.
Yeah, you got her out of there. No, they would not believe was a slightly more compelling Evidence. If they won't believe Moses and the prophets they would not believe they would say that's something else.
It's some other witchcraft craft. They would make up some other excuse, right? I mean, that's just when you are pun-intended hell-bent on Going against God's will you will find any excuse to not believe.
I mean There have been so many ways when I didn't want something to be true That I tried to rationalize I'm ahead of. Maybe there's another reason this happened. Yeah, I mean it just happens all the time.
So I.
Think one other aspect of it is this. There is a level of finality. Where God's mercy ends and his justice reigns. Yeah. For the human spirit that's at death. So if you lived your whole life unrepentant.
Unrepentant. Even if you wanted to which you won't because that takes a changed spirit from God. Anyway, even if you wanted to that would be in just because the Bible says. Just as I was appointed once for man to die and after this comes judgment Hebrews 9 27.
So that's when God's mercy ends and his justice reigns.
Well, you choose. He gives you the opportunity to choose with him here or separate from here. If you choose to be separated from him here, then you'll be separated from him there. It's like the Titanic's going down and he gives you the lifeboat to get on and you're choosing to play with the band.
You have the choice of free will to jump on that lifeboat and live to see another day. You chose to be with the world and not with the few that are trying to guide you the right way.
Yeah, and I think what pastor said about Jesus being God being just that's absolutely very important. Very important. The forgiveness of sins and you said this earlier their forgiveness of sins does not mean that there is no Punishment for sins and we have the opportunity to say is Jesus taking my punishment or am I and we can't somebody's taking it, right?
We can't go nowhere. So I'm gonna pay for my own sin. And then when the time comes all.
It's over put it on him let him have my sin, I'm sorry, you know, I give it to him.
We gave you that opportunity, you know that that happened with my daughter. Can't put salvation on layaway, that's right.
But this ain't a pawn shop. So yeah, I'm with my daughter.
Hey, if I see you do that again, or no, no. Hey, come here. She don't come here. And then all of a sudden I say it with a deeper voice. Come here. She'll be here. Oh, sorry daddy and runs. I'm like no, you see you see you can't all of a sudden when you realize yeah, that is watching, right?
Like I better do right now, that's not integrity. We need to operate from integrity. I made her.
I made her right. The word integrity.
40 times. Hey, let's give Ava a prop. She passed kindergarten went to first grade. Only four mistakes or whatever you said that's a win.
Passage in a minute and a half and only had four mistakes in that.
Count the mistakes. I do not have a doubt in my mind That you do not. That you count the mistakes. I got it. She said no passes.
She said then and it was they like three out of four letters ain't good enough. Don't miss another one. Don't miss another one. She's. She hesitated and I counted. It was like, okay. She said they're they.
You corrected it. That's okay.
Well guys, if you liked what you heard today, if you didn't like what you heard today leave a comment. You can always ask questions. Please leave a comment with your question. We also have an email address listen point taken at gmail .com.
Send it in there. We have a Instagram page point taken Christian podcast. Give us a DM, but most importantly guys submit to God. Pray for one another speak truth speak life into people live to live your life every day to glorify God.
Don't ask him. To test you ask him for strength when he does. Mm-hmm.
Get on the lifeboat, you know, I can tell you get on the lifeboat, but until next time.
Deuces.
That's a king of time right there.
