Senator Dusty Deever's Political Agenda

Hey everyone, welcome once again to the Conversations That Matter podcast, I'm your host, John Harris. We have a very busy man with us today, Pastor and Senator Dusty Devers from the great state of Oklahoma.

Thank you for taking time out of your schedule to join me and answer some questions and talk about some important things, Senator and Pastor Dusty Devers.

Hey, John, thank you so much for having me, man. I really respect the work you are doing and you've been doing for many years now. It's very thankless oftentimes, and I've experienced some of the difficulty of doing a thankless job at times, but I want to be one of the ones who encourages you and lets you know.

I appreciate you, brother.

Thank you so much, and I appreciate you. The affection is mutual. I know you've written some articles for TruthScript as well if people want to go check those out. We've had some conversations in private chats and stuff, but we haven't done this yet.

This may be the first of a few that we'll do in the future as you continue on in your role as a state senator in Oklahoma. I want to let you talk and just inspire other men to take a stand for the right thing.

You went from being a pastor to now being a state senator. That's kind of a heavy decision. I don't think people just casually walk into that, so maybe walk us through that. What did that look like for you?

From Pastor to State Senator

I'll try not to be too long, but there is a long narrative, a storyline that God has written and He's still writing that kind of led me to that decision. You see some things in the background here. This is my son's room.

I'm at my house today. I had a little bit of a reprieve and some of the work for my Senate seat. I'm at my house, and the quietest place with five kids in the house, one of them's in college, is one of their upstairs bedrooms.

I don't have a basketball goal and medals on my wall in some office. I'd have the basketball goal, but yeah, the process to get there, oh man, in 2019, really, I started tracking more on a political level whenever we were helping assist in trying to pass the bill to abolish abortion, SB 13 in Oklahoma.

And then, so I started to learn more about the political process and talking with your elected officials. And then in 2020 came and we were really caught on our heels with regard to what's the role of the civil magistrate in relationship to the church, but also what's the civil magistrate's relationship to God and his governing.

And in reading some of the Westminster Confession and the 1689 and seeing, I read through Lex Rex and the Vindicia Contra Terranis and other works like Basiet's The Law and recognizing that our founding fathers of this country, but then even pushing back the Puritans and the reformers, they understood this stuff at a far better level than we did.

And we had much to learn and recover. So really this is what I feel like I'm doing is just a work of repentance and a recovery project of getting back to where we should have been. And we were so unequipped to take on 2020 that I felt convicted over it, quite frankly, and started to lead the church through bearing fruit and keeping with repentance.

Kind of shift around. Did you want to say something?

No, I can always say something, but I want you to keep talking. So tell us the story. Keep going.

Yeah, I'll fast forward to coming up to this office. We've been preaching through Deuteronomy. I edited a book on God and government by Brett Baggett that you can get on Amazon. It's really good. It's really short.

But I edited that and helped him along with that. And it was very helpful. We taught our church through it. We've been preaching through Deuteronomy for a while. And we wrote a member of ours and myself, James Silberman, some of you probably know of him from his work in Abolitionists Rising and Free the States.

We wrote the statement on Christian nationalism, and we were teaching the church through it. And we had this journey with the church that God was taking us on. And so when this Senate seat came open, it was a special election.

The Senate seat was resigned by the guy who was in our district. And we knew that we had to do something. God had positioned us since 2019, particularly, we thought, to be the most equipped church in our district, having thought through all of these things multiple times and having done deep dives into the relationship of God and government and the relationship of the government to the church, that we should run someone.

So three weeks went by, and we were praying for those three weeks. We had a prayer meeting on a Thursday night. Myself and another one of our elders put ourselves forward, and the church then prayed for another hour.

And then they encouraged, they actually commissioned me to run for the position. So from there, I had a whole lot more learning to do about, gosh, running for senator and the political process as far as campaigning.

And now I'm learning a lot at having been elected and really God bringing me into this role about how to legislate from the inside now.

Excellent. Excellent.

Yeah.

And I mean, I have so many questions about how that affects your role as a pastor and what it was like to have people in your own denomination, including the current president, oppose you in some form.

I do want to go to some of the people, though, in chat, because we actually have four people right now standing by. And if you unmute your microphones, I know you're ready. There's one person with their microphone unmuted.

That's Jeff Reynolds. So I'm going to go to Jeff first. Hey, Jeff, how are you doing?

Hey, John, good. How are you doing?

Good to see you.

Thanks for doing this.

Yeah, my pleasure.

I don't I don't think I have much to say yet, except that this is an awesome another great discussion with an amazing, amazing guest, Dusty. Congratulations and thank you for the work you're doing. It's these kind of battles are the things that are going to make the difference these days.

I mean, so just appreciate what you're doing. This is great. Yeah.

Thanks, Jeff. If you have a question or comment as we go through it, just let me know in the private chat and we'll go from there. Sorry, I didn't mean to spring that on you. You're the only one with your bike off.

So that wasn't intentional.

Jeff, thank you for the encouragement. I appreciate it. And yeah, John, whenever we think about the transition to being a senator now, essentially, in my mind, in the mind of our church, we have we have three elders at our church.

It is. It's not a hard shift. I mean, we've taught the people how to read the word of God and how to apply the word of God in their own homes, in their parenting, in having just government in their own personal life and just government in their homes.

And we as elders are trying to practice just government in the church. And so now we just want to practice just government, righteous government in the civil sphere as well. And God's word is clearly capable for that.

It's sufficient for all things in life and godliness. And that includes life and godliness outside of the home and the church as well. So it would it would cover that. And I mean, I think most pastors, most Christians who are or at least the men who are running their homes well and the men who are running their churches well and are good judges, righteous judges who hold the word of God up to matters in their home and who hold the word of God up to matters in the church.

They are more capable at holding at holding the word of God up to matters in the civil sphere than really anyone else that's not holding the word of God up to to judge.

Right. Yeah, no. Good point. And I just want to say by way of announcement here, anyone who does have a question who's in chat, just turn your microphone on and I'll see it and then I'll know that I can come to you and you can ask a question or make a statement or you want to argue with Senator Deavers.

He's going to get used to that. He probably already is. So I wanted to ask you about the Christian nationalism thing. You mentioned it already that you drafted or helped draft this statement when you were still.

Well, you are still a pastor, but it was when you were not a state senator yet. And, you know, this has been one of the questions I get a lot from people is especially people who have read Stephen Wolfe's book and they wonder, OK, well, what does this actually look like?

So, you know, you say you want a Christian nation. You say you want the government to uphold Christian values and you want a Christian identity. But what are the steps that you take? What are the laws that you pass?

What does that effectively look like? And, you know, I've given some specifics, but for me, it's like I'm not in public office. I'm not doing any of these things directly. And you are. So I think this is a great opportunity maybe to talk about your bills or just what you think it looks like to be a Christian, self-consciously so, in public office.

And what are the steps that need to be taken to bring, in this case, the state of Oklahoma to a more Christian place, I suppose?

Christian Nationalism and the Rule of Christ

Yeah. When we talk about Christian, we're not saying, we're not using the term like we would someone that we're bringing into church membership, where we're assessing the profession of faith and their practice of faith to see if they're in the kingdom of God, if they've been born again.

We're using it more as a set of principles by which we, or a set of principles in the from the scriptures, that we recognize that this world is to be governed by and particularly how governments are to be governed.

Whenever we talk about authority, governing is about a use of authority. And what are the, what is the standard for the use of authority? And is that authority prescribed in the scriptures? And we would say, yes, God prescribes servants of His to govern as His mediators on this earth.

And so He has prescribed governing, and then He has also prescribed the means for our governing. And that means is in accordance with His word. And if we do otherwise, then we are essentially usurping the sovereign rule of God through Christ, who has been seated above every power in heaven and on earth and under the earth.

So that's our marching orders. And it's pretty straightforward as far as, you know, if you want to talk about Christian nationalism, what we mean by a Christian nation.

Yeah, what I'd like to do is maybe go from general to specific. So we'll go from kind of like the what you're talking about now, the responsibility of Christians in a civil sphere and then go to the specific bills that you've introduced.

Now, I didn't ask your permission to this. I probably should have. And you don't have to get involved with this if you don't want to. But I think this is a common objection to what you're talking about.

This is fresh off the press this morning. Owen Strand had responded to you. You wrote, Good morning, woke up, poured my cup of straight black coffee, surveyed the landscape, analyzed the situation with various metrics, assessment report, Christ is king, undefeated, His government and its increase has no end.

And then you quoted Acts 17, 6 through 7. And then Owen Strand responded and said, Christ is king, Dusty, amen. But no, what the apostles focused on preaching the gospel while we need politicians, the apostles weren't politicians.

They were fearless before rulers, but their focus was making disciples and strengthening churches. That's the Great Commission. And so I think that's fairly representative of some of the reaction that you'll see in even reformed evangelical circles to what you're trying to do, that Christians don't really have much of a business being in politics.

Or if they do, it should not ever be thought of as part of the mission of Christians. It's something separate. It's a secular thing, I guess. And the two shall never touch. And so I know you deal with this objection a lot.

What's your response to something like that?

Well, goodness gracious, where to start with that? I mean, I did write a response to what Owen posted, but essentially, I think. The most important part is when you look at the authority of Christ, I think of it like Thomas Boston and some of the other Puritans did in terms of Christ's essential aspect of his authority and his mediatorial aspect of his authority.

Essentially, as God, the Son of God has essential reign and rule over all things. Everything in this world was created by him, for him, through him, and without him, nothing was made that was made. So everything in this world is created after Christ and for Christ.

And whenever we rebelled against God, we were essentially rebelling against Christ and the image of God in Christ on us. And that's particularly what was in the fall. We rebelled against God and we broke what was marred is that image of God in Christ on us so that Christ is the only one who can come back and redeem us or reconcile us to God and fix the marred image.

And that's what he does in coming to earth, living a sinless life, dying a substitutionary death on the cross, raising from the dead on the third day, ascending to the right hand of the father. And now in his current reign, he is both essential king, but also mediatorial king.

So that's the two aspects of his kingship. And by his mediatorial rule, it means he has through the gospel. And this is what we see in the Great Commission. This is why I think getting at Owen's flawed hermeneutic here, in the Great Commission, Christ says the preamble to it is all authority in heaven, his essential kingship, and on earth as a mediator, he now has kingship, has been given to me.

And so on the basis of that dual nature of his authority, essential and mediatorial, he sends out the apostles to extend the mediatorial reign of Christ. They're not extending the essential rule of Christ because he has it by nature of his divinity.

They are extending the mediatorial rule of Christ through what? Through the preaching of the gospel, yes. And what's embedded in the Great Commission is the teaching those people to observe and obey or obey everything that he commands.

So what we're building in this life is the mediatorial rule of Christ through submitting to him through the gospel, his kingship through the gospel, and submitting to him by faith through being zealous for good works in every area.

And those good works actually show off the rule of Christ. So how did Owen get it wrong? It's because he fails to see both sides. It's a reductionistic hermeneutic. So I'm really going at his theological method largely in that comment.

Yeah, no, good thoughts. What would you say if someone, and I don't know that he would believe this, or I don't know who would believe this, but it just came to my head, you know, extending the rule of Christ in a mediatorial way when you impose laws on people who are not Christians, right?

They are godless. Let's say they could even be pagans or atheists, and they are now forced because they live in a jurisdiction like your own, let's say, if they pass some of the laws that you proposed, that requires them to abide, at least externally, under God's law in some way.

Is that an extension of the mediatorial role of Christ, or how does that work? Is that something separate in your mind?

Yeah, that's absolutely an extension. And what they're getting is they're getting a measure of grace from being in proximity to true Christianity. So whenever Christians are voted into office, it's not just good for Christians.

It's good for the wicked as well. It's good for those who maybe are yet to come to Christ. So there are several proverbs and several scriptures that talk about when the righteous increase, the people flourish.

And so whenever the wicked increase, the people groan. Whenever there's wicked rulers, the people groan. Why is that? Because God who made this world also spoke. The God who created also speaks. And He spoke in His word how the world is to be ordered.

And that ordered good is the best life for anyone and everyone, whether they believe in Him or not. So it is a grace to all under the jurisdiction of a Christian leader who will bow the knee to Christ.

It's a grace to all of them.

Yeah. So most Christians, you would think, would respect someone who wants to, as an elected official, make the law of God not just important, but required because it'll make everything better. You know, it's the third use of the law.

It's going to not just convict of sin, but it's also going to make sure that evil is somewhat put at bay so that conviction can take place. There is a standard that's upheld. This just seems basic to me in a way.

But there does seem to be an objection that some Christians have to it. And I was wondering, I don't want to get too much into the drama here unless you want to. But if that was part of the reason that the president of the Southern Baptist Convention, Bart Barber, gave money in the primary to one of the candidates who was challenging you or you were challenging them, you were competing against each other in that primary, they did not support you.

And I've heard and I don't know this to be true or not, but that that particular candidate is not, I guess, as pro-life as you are or I should say against abortion as you are. What's the deal there? You know, it's just confusing, I think, to Southern Baptists, especially thinking like, OK, our president hates abortion, I think, and wants the law of God and sounds like Dusty wants that.

So what's the disconnect?

Yeah, I think I think the disconnect there is they think I the way I interpret scripture is they think it's probably too narrow. But I see it being a broader application of scripture to all of life, all of Christ, for all of life, where I think they might say that it's too narrow because I want to see the the laws applied with consistency.

I don't want to make any room for evil that some good may come along. Romans 3, 8. But I think it's intimidating for some people to think that way. I think a lot of people have been trained by, well, I don't even like to say secular because I don't believe that there's this middle space that's secular.

And there's this there's this Christian side or this this place where God rules. And then there's this secular place. And then there's this, you know, Satan's world. I don't think that there's that middle space.

But I think that a lot of a lot of people who are well, a lot of people, for that matter, and especially the the post-war folks that have a B in front of their names, their categorical name. I think a lot of them were trained by classical liberalism.

And like there's this like there's this like this quad out in the middle of the university where all ideas are equal and where it's OK. And once you walk off the quad, nobody's going to fight. And there's there's this middle space that is kind of like it's going to build community as though it's neutral.

And I just cannot square that with Scripture. From the very beginning, it was either you are obeying God or you're going to listen to the serpent who says, did God really say? So it's either you're coming under the rule of God, your creator, who is also gracious and sent his son, or you're going to come under the rule of the serpent.

And so it's a serpentine theocracy or a rule of God. And there's not a space in the middle. And so I think when people hear me talk about these kinds of things, they think, well, that that violates our sensibilities, that there's this neutral space.

And that's the best way to govern, that we're going to get win some and lose some. And compromise is the currency of politics. And you just have to play play politics. And I'll play politics if we're talking about Jesus is king and we obey him and anything he says to do is what is best and it will happen in accordance with his will and his timing.

I don't have to worry about the results. I'll play politics like that. But I won't play politics if you think that there's a space to take God's rule and reign and to tamper with it and to to practice cunning with the scriptures.

That's really what I think it is.

So you don't see some. I think that's why some people say, well, Christian nationalism is a threat to democracy, because they're thinking of this neutral space where their conception of free speech and right to privacy.

And you can do anything you want, really, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. That's that's what they want to try to preserve. But, of course, all manner of evil is cultivated in that space. And it's really not that neutral.

And then that actually affects, in this case, the moral and working men and women who are putting the bill for all of this. And that, I think, brings us into some of these bills that you have introduced to the state Senate.

And I'm looking at your there's a website called Bill Track and it has all these bills. There's I think there's what, nine bills, something like that that you've introduced, which is that normal? I just have to ask, is that that seems like for someone who just got elected, that's a little bit like that's a lot.

You know, it probably is a lot. I came in in a special election, and the reason why I don't have more, actually, is because I came in very late in the process. Many of the deadlines were already passed.

They made what they said were some concessions for me to actually file. And they gave me three bills that already had titles on them. But you can change the title before the session starts. And even after the session, the titles can change, but at least they had to be filed by a certain date.

And they gave me three bills, essentially called shell bills. And then I went out and pushed for six more. And essentially what you see in these nine bills are the are the platforms that I ran on for the most part.

There's a few others that if I could have gotten bills for, I might have run. But I was warned, don't don't take on too much. And people are telling me, you have taken on too much and you've really put yourself put a target on your back.

And a lot of people aren't going to like it. People in Senate leadership are not going to like it. But, you know, in God's providence, I ran on certain positions and I told the church, we're going to run on these platform on these platform positions.

But the liberal media is going to try to make my campaign into something that is hateful, that's spiteful, that's corrupted or whatever. They're going to try to do that. So you need to remember, church, whenever they bring something up, it could only be brought up and made a major issue because it first went through the sovereign God's filter.

And if he wants it brought up, they would have had to pass it through him. And if it gets to me, then I'm going to lean into it even harder. I'm not going to back away from it. And if the people aren't ready, that's not my fault.

Obedience is mine. The results belong to God. If the people are ready, then I am going to they'll vote me in and I'll represent these very positions. If they aren't ready, then so be it. I'll go back and we'll keep preaching and we'll keep moving forward.

I'm content with that because I don't need this position. This is not something I need for my my bucket list or for my goals in life or for my kids to say, oh, look, your dad really is a winner. I don't care about that stuff.

I want to honor the Lord. And so, yeah, there's there's nine here and there's some pretty significant heavy hitters.

Tax Policy and the State Income Tax

Let's start with the ones that aren't as heavy that are. You don't get the headlines, but taxes, because you're seen as a social conservative guy and that's the Christian Nationalist movement. Right. But you got two bills on taxes here.

Tell me about that.

Yeah. Yeah. So the first one, Senate Bill 2031, is to repeal the state income tax. And right now it's at four point seven five. And I think it's it's an unjust tax and I want to see it at zero. And, you know, I can talk about the reasons why, if you'd like, why I think it's an unjust tax.

But then the second one is it's it's called it's 2037, Senate Bill 2037, and it's called the grocery tax rebate. But essentially, there's some there's some marketing in that in that name. But essentially what it's about is setting up a framework for a consumption tax where you can you you tax goods and certain services and not tax, not do any unjust taxation.

Gotcha. And that did you mention the other one? That's the that's one of them. Eliminating the income tax and then. OK, so I guess that flows into the the sales tax rebate. Yes. OK, gotcha. Yeah, this is we probably could go for a while on that, but then we wouldn't have time for the other stuff.

If anyone wants to ask a question about that, they're more than welcome. I'm going to go to Chase Davis. The first pastor, Chase Davis, who's been on the show before and see what he has to say. And then Andrew's on deck to ask a question.

So, hey, Chase.

Hey, guys. Great to be here.

How are you doing? Good, good, good. So I don't know if you have a question or a comment or an argument. You want to pick a bone with Dusty?

No, I don't have a bone to pick with Dusty. I do. First of all, really inspired, really thankful for your work, praying for you. We just had a talk with our church last night. We do these kind of quarterly teachings.

Last night was on wealth and money. And so I brought up the issue of taxation. So I'm always interested in talking about that. You know, you is kind of wearing dual hats as a politician now and a pastor.

I'm curious. You know, we're at our church. We're putting up we're signing. We're putting a petition in the lobby for an abortion abolition bill on Sundays. And it makes a lot of evangelicals uncomfortable.

You know, when you do that kind of thing, mainly because they have this boogeyman of separation of church and state and that kind of thing. So how do you how do you as a pastor, you know, through the preaching?

Is there is there kind of a firewall in your mind? Like, yeah, I won't touch an issue. Or are you just kind of like everything's fair game? Like, is there something pastors should avoid when getting up and teaching on these things?

And I'm sure it gets complicated with you wearing to that. So that would that would be kind of my thing. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on.

Good question. You're trying to get me in trouble with the state, aren't you?

I'm really not.

No, I mean, look. I don't see any firewalls that are provided to me by the scriptures. So why should I recognize an unjust law if there is one? I don't see any firewalls providing the scriptures pastors should preach the full counsel of the words so that the blood of the people's the blood of the people is not on their hands, like Paul said.

So as a there, that's not to say that there aren't distinct roles for the church to play and tools for the church to wield versus what the state can wield. The church has the tools of the word and sacrament in the preaching of the gospel and the teaching people to obey everything that Jesus commanded and then the giving of baptism and the giving and receiving of the Lord's Supper for the discipline and the integrity of the church.

The state has been emplaced by to protect innocent people, to punish and terrorize evildoers and to promote what is good in accordance with the will of God or the law of God and the word of God. And their tools that have been given to them is the sword, the sort of force to protect and to protect those innocent people by punishing and terrorizing evildoers.

The church hasn't been given the sword of violence or justice in that sense. The church has been given word and sacrament as their tools. So, yeah, there are distinct tools and roles, but is there conversation that's off limit?

I don't see that in scripture. Now, if you want to get to taxation, I'm happy to have a conversation with you about why income tax is an unjust tax.

Well, unfortunately, we have like 20 minutes, so that's the problem. And I want to get to the because right now you're making headlines for wanting to ban pornography. And I want to if we have time, we might not talk about the border.

But before that, Andrew has a question or a comment. Hey, Andrew, how are you doing? Can you hear me?

Yep, yep, I can hear you. Can you hear me? Yep. Howdy, Senator. I'm Andrew from Texas. Here we're going to ask a question about Texas in a little bit. We can get to it. But I had a real quick question about the case for Christian nationalism, the book by Stephen Wolfe.

I'm about halfway through working through it, still trying to figure out where everybody kind of is. There's a lot of different flavors. I was curious how familiar you are with his work and where you would differ in any sort of noticeable way.

It's a good question.

Yeah. So I've scanned most of it and I've read about, oh, a third of it. So I'm not really ready to say where I would disagree with him or not. He's a Presbyterian. I'm a Baptist. I think if he's going to follow along with the Westminster, whether it was before the American edit or after, I'm not even certain on that.

And, you know, as a 1689, we're going to have some differences. But I really think that his work is monumental and that what he has done is courageous. And he has taken a lot of undue heat for what he's done.

He's been very misunderstood and a lot of misguided folks are taking him to task for really, I think, irresponsible readings of his of his work. So I'm not going to I'm not going to say anything towards that end.

Yeah, good answer to that. We have Sean next. I don't know if Sean has a question or a comment, but Sean, how are you doing?

Doing great, guys. Good to meet you, Senator. Thank you for your service. And I appreciate you standing up in this hour. We need more men like you. My question really just really conversation with you real quick about what's it like to be a freshman senator right now and jumping in with this?

I've talked to other first timers and they've said, you know, they had to get good running shoes to run around the Capitol. They realize how much that would take for them to do that. But I'd like to know how many bills.

How many bills do you anticipate running this year? Is this something you only have 15 or as a freshman, are you limited to only five or six this year? And I'd love to hear you talk about what you think as a freshman is going to be, you know, your actual effect on this legislative session there.

How much can you do?

Yeah, yeah. So a lot of that is up is going to be determined here over the next few weeks. Session runs from February 6th till well, February 5th until the end of May. So we had deadlines to turn in bills.

And what I was telling John earlier is that I came in so late that it was just running and gunning. I was working about 18 hours a day to get these bills written and get them back to the drafters and and get edits done.

And a couple of them need work. There's going to be amendments that I'll even offer on on a few of them because I don't think that they're perfect yet. And that's that's fine. This is how the process works.

But those nine that I turned in, I think are heavy hitters. And, you know, you brought up getting running shoes. Well, I swore off the use of the elevator. I'm on the fifth floor. And every morning I come in with my two bags, with computers in each one of them and, you know, other heavy items for for protection.

And I run those five those five flights of stairs because I there's a few reasons for that. I need to get in shape a little bit better. I need to be strong. I think I have a responsibility to for my body as well before the Lord.

But I also it is intimidating for people to see me running up those stairs. And it's been numerous times people have seen me run up the stairs and they're like they're it's pretty shocking, I guess. But every time I'll do that probably three times a day, I'll run the five flights of stairs, whether it's to to clear my mind or to just get some some more energy.

I'll do that. But, yeah, what's the likelihood of them getting past? That's that's up to the Lord to determine. I am just trying to be faithful, and I've been told that leadership is not going to sniff out.

They're not even going to come close enough to smell these bills. They're not going to be appropriated to committees. If they are, I'm going to be mocked and shamed. I've been told that the leadership does not want anything that makes the Senate look undignified.

And some of these bills are going to make the Senate look undignified, that we would be arguing over these things. I mean, in my mind. The people that I'm representing, the 80 ,000 or so people in my district are just as much Oklahomans as anybody else, whether I'm a freshman or I've been there 10, 11 years.

So that representation that they deserve is the same as anybody at the highest positions of the Senate. And quite frankly, we have an extra constitutional administrative regime that is running a lot of the statehouses and that's running our federal government.

The Constitution, we are post-constitutional in that way in so many ways. And so most of what we need to be doing is repealing, is to be striking back government and getting the government under the Constitution.