Ergun Caner's Biography Comes to Light

Alpha & Omega Ministries

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

Comments are disabled.

00:08

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

00:15

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

00:23

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

00:32

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the

00:39

United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

00:46

James white And welcome to the device I just got a Twitter It's got a tweet right as right as the microphone opened up Someone had had sent me one said the trouble with the rat race is that even if you win?

00:59

You're still a rat Lily Tomlin And so I said care to elaborate on that cryptic message and right as the microphone opened up I got back

01:06

Not really. No, you are so good at reading into things. Just make something up Now I'm not gonna back up what

01:15

I said to you and I'm too scared to do it. Anyways, but yeah. Yes.

01:20

Yeah, that's basically what it was. Yeah. Well, welcome to the Guess that's a good way to start today programming note don't forget

01:28

Thursday 10 a .m. An hour earlier than now, whatever time it is where you are now an hour earlier part two of the debate with Michael Brown I have listed on the website the text to be exegeted and once again,

01:44

I I don't think there's much about the text that is Controversial on an exegetical level it is application, unfortunately

01:53

So I do find it I find it significant that the text I chose are specifically on soteriology and That's generally not the case here for example the the

02:04

G is talking about the Jewish leaders You have to make application It's not specifically it's in a judgment passage for crying out loud but that's that's gonna come out in the debate and I think that is relevant to an evaluation of Of the debate and that's something that you're gonna have to do as look at that the hour earlier

02:22

Then now 10 o 'clock on Thursday morning our time I want to address a

02:29

An issue from the debate later in the program. I have it queued up I want to address that subject but there is something that we need to address first on the program today this morning

02:42

Jason Smathers Posted an article on his blog entitled Ergon Kanner's secret biography and I've Tweeted this

02:52

I need to get on the blog so that people can read it. I think it's highly Significant that the picture that Jason put with his blog entry is of Ergon Kanner standing in front of a group of Soldiers, he's addressing an entire group of American soldiers and my assumption would be

03:13

That he's probably talking about Islam Why is Ergon Kanner an expert on Islam?

03:19

Well because Ergon Kanner has over and over and over in public settings not privately to individuals but as a part of his claims

03:30

Has said that he was raised as a Muslim as he his father was a

03:36

Muslim leader That he lived in majority Muslim countries before he came to the

03:42

United States in 1978 -1979 as a teenager And This is what provides him with his background his

03:55

THD work in South Africa was not on the subject of Islam It was on the subject of the

04:01

Inquisition as I recall the Crusades Crusades I'm sorry the Crusades which would have something to do with Islam that that's quite true.

04:06

It would But his primary assertion of expertise is due to his

04:13

Have been raised as a Muslim Now, I don't know about you but I think anyone who converts out of Christianity as a teenager to something else should never claim to have been an expert on Christianity and when

04:25

I see someone who who did convert from Christianity a profession of Christianity anyways as a young person

04:33

I Look rather askance their claims to expertise. In fact, I look at a scans that most people's claims to expertise who are former anything's

04:44

There aren't a lot of people in our churches that if they were to go someplace else we'll be able to say yeah And I was an expert at what we believe that's that's pretty rare and So it's extremely important.

04:56

It's relevant to why it is that Eric encounter has claimed to debate people. He's never met He has claimed to have done 61 debates as long as ago in 2006 61 debates with Muslim leaders and I can't find any

05:10

Muslim on the planet that says everything Oh, yeah, I debated I had a debate with Eric encounter I was sent and I didn't blog this either but I should

05:20

I should probably just pack all this stuff up and put it into a single blog article, but one of my fellow bloggers ran across an entire encyclopedic work of religious debates and It's a huge work just listing mainly

05:35

Church of Christ people because Church Christ people love to debate and they love the debate and Yours truly has a number of pages in in this particular encyclopedia but if you look up Eric encounter there isn't anything listed anywhere and This then has to do with you know, why he confuses

05:59

Serta fatiha with the shahada and just all sorts of things like this that we've gone over many times in the past We've asked questions about these things and even

06:07

Eric encounter's apology for having claimed to have debated Shabir Ali when he's never even met Shabir Ali is no longer on his website.

06:13

Neither is his bio You just last I checked you you click on his bio and you get a 404 and it's there's just nothing there at all

06:21

I'm not sure if that's changed today. I forgot to check this morning So with all that said one of the questions that I have raised a number of times now is

06:34

I've listened to Eric encounter specifically state look when I came here.

06:39

I thought you all hated us Because I had only lived in majority

06:45

Muslim countries before I came the United States He has likewise claimed to have come to the

06:51

United States via by Beirut and Cairo now

06:57

I suppose That could be that his plane Took off from Turkey landed in Beirut took off from Beirut landed in Cairo and flew from Cairo to the

07:06

United States. I Suppose that's a possibility, but that's not why he was saying what he was saying

07:12

He was claiming to have lived in Beirut in Cairo and and so all of this

07:20

Including then the date of when he came Because that has been one of the biggest questions we've been asking it's you know there's all these contradictions between what emir says and Ergen says and and You know emir can be president

07:32

United States and Ergen can't because emir was actually born in the United States But he's only four years younger than Ergen So if he's four years younger than Ergen then

07:43

Ergen came here when he was four That really wouldn't you know help his his story that he tells this this persona that he's created for himself see

07:54

And so the question was when did you come here? Why are there contradictions? Why have you claimed to live in majority

08:00

Muslim countries? Do you think Sweden's majority Muslim? Do you think it was majority Muslim in 1970? And it'd be pretty easy to go back to 1970 and find out how many

08:09

Muslims were actually in Sweden at a time But why do you make claims about living in Turkey in Beirut in Cairo?

08:22

Did you come to the United States when you were young and then move back to these places Tell us the answers to these questions

08:28

You're the one that has raised all these issues if your story was straight. Nobody would be asking questions

08:34

If your story was consistent, no one be asking questions, but the stories aren't straight and they're not consistent

08:42

And so we're asking questions. Well, as I said Jason posted a blog article Thank you figured the 404 is still there.

08:49

Okay still no No issues there And I'm going to read you the blog article here.

08:57

I'm going to put on on the blog and we'll Take a look at it on April 1st 1966

09:06

Akar Mehmet Kanner and Monica Inez Kanner aka Monica Inez hunt

09:12

We're married in Stockholm Sweden source separation agreement with link. You can look at all these things for yourself

09:19

Interesting note in unveiling Islam and acknowledgment is given to Jim and Monica hunt who have walked with us throughout our spiritual lives

09:24

I was assuming be his mother and stepfather in November of 1966 arrogant

09:31

Michael Kanner was born in Sweden not in Istanbul as he has claimed in public presentations on Legal documents such as arrogance concealed weapons permit.

09:42

His middle name is in the English rendered Michael. It seems he uses the Islamic rendering Mehmet only when selling books.

09:51

I did note that prior to 9 -11 it was Butch Michael Kanner or just simply

09:59

Butch Kanner. It was only after 9 -11 that all of a sudden This this Islamic background became front and center

10:07

We have seen that Here's the important stuff arrogant move this family to the

10:13

United States before his fourth birthday Arrogance younger brother emir was born, Ohio in August of 1970

10:20

Before his fourth birthday folks here in the United States always lived in majority Muslim countries first language was

10:28

Arabic Really? Is that what they're speaking in Sweden? Don't think so Arrogance parents buy a house in Columbus, Ohio on July 19th 1974 assessment list for and then the address is given you can look for yourself.

10:46

These are called public records People who know how to find public records are scary people

10:53

Hey, does Jason want ops and channel anything else you'd like Maybe we need to start advertising for a particular lock company.

11:02

Yes life Yes bios lock or something like that Yeah, definitely anyway, uh

11:12

So Columbus, Ohio, July 19th, 1974. So if they've come in 70 And they're buying a house of 74.

11:21

Are we really to believe that that they've just come they visited They've flown back to Beirut Cairo Turkey wherever another coming back again.

11:30

Where is the evidence of this? That I mean those are possibilities. We got to raise the possibilities, but seems really strange, doesn't it?

11:39

arrogance mother Monica buys a house in Gahanna not get henna, but Gahanna, Ohio on September 20th 1977 link provided Ergon's parents filed for divorce for the first time in July of 1975 when

11:55

Ergon was only seven years old at This time custody of Ergon and his brothers was granted to their mother

12:01

Monica. The divorce decree is available now listen to this as part of a separation agreement entered into on April 14th 1978 the boys were to be raised in the

12:14

Islamic faith the same agreement prohibits this and this the same agreement prohibits travel outside the continental borders the

12:22

United States of America a Term that remained in effect the rest of time that the Canterbury's were minors so much for going to Beirut Cairo Turkey, etc, etc, etc

12:35

Monica promptly fought against this provision by making a motion to the court on June 8th 1978 the court revised the earlier agreement allowing for religious training

12:43

Through each parent according to each parents desires during the time of their custody Links provided Ergon's father

12:52

Acker then had five weeks per year and every other weekend to train

12:57

Ergon and his brothers in the Islamic faith The rest of the time Ergon and his brothers were in custody of their mother Monica.

13:03

This custody agreement was never modified Monica continued to fight

13:09

Acker on the religious training issue on February 6 1979 which would have been what?

13:15

What was the date? People and channel will help me out of this wasn't it November? 4th 1979 is the date that we don't know whether that was

13:24

Ergon's conversion point or Emir's conversion point Or is that 1982 that was 1982 is? The date on that so on February 6 1979 the

13:35

Franklin County Court of Appeals considered the case again One of the judges believed that Monica should be given the right to establish the religion of the minor children

13:43

But the court did not overturn the previous decision 1982 thank you. Okay, so three and a half years prior to Ergon's conversion

13:55

According to Ergon's testimony. He was about Muslim until the day he was saved in 1982 I guess I could have read the next paragraph huh

14:00

Ergon has also made public comments about living in majority Muslim nations Ergon Can you please help us understand your testimony?

14:06

I would love to hear how you were a devout Muslim in the custody of your Swedish mother who fought in court against your father

14:11

On your religious upbringing Ergon from this information It seems that you were born in Sweden moved the United States before you were four and have lived here ever since Can you shed some light on your public comments about living in majority

14:22

Muslim nations, especially living in Cairo and Beirut? Now I think what's especially important aside from this

14:31

Establishing a timeline where the family is here from 1970 onwards and Buying houses and The divorce decree which prohibits international travel leaving the continental

14:46

United States Establishes a timeline and this has been one of the main questions is

14:55

Dr. Kanner Ergon Kanner has over and over and over again made claims that have been proven faults like Arabic is my original language

15:05

Really, then why did you say in the apology which you have pulled from your website? That that's not the case

15:13

X not X contradiction the type of thing you'd expect when you're making stuff up on the fly and That unfortunately is exactly what's been going on.

15:23

But now we have a timeline That answers the question when the family came to the

15:28

United States. So why is it that we have? Audio clip and video clip after audio clip and video clip of Ergon Kanner saying they came to United States From majority

15:37

Muslim nations when he was a teenager not just a young teenager, but a much more mature teenager 15 years old when he had actually been living here for 11 years at that point in time 15 years old he was like four when he got here or in 1966 why all these contradictions and Why they all have to do the same thing well

16:03

That's that's a question that Ergon Kanner needs to answer and he first and foremost needs to answer these questions the leadership of Liberty Liberty University And then that leadership needs to explain these things

16:16

To the Family of students they have developed based upon bringing

16:21

Ergon Kanner in as the Dean and the president of the seminary They love to emphasize that he has tripled the enrollment since he got there.

16:28

What's fantastic Upon what basis? Why are they there if you're a part of the global apologetics minutes

16:38

Studies program You're there because you have read Ergon Kanner claiming to be on the very forefront of apologetics to Muslims and to Buddhists and to Hindus and to all sorts of other folks and Eventually someone, you know, it's gonna put their hand up and say why can't

16:59

I watch these? Well, there's these interviews. Well interviews are not debates Why are these people pointing out that you've made these basic fundamental errors in regards to Islam If you were raised as a devout

17:12

Muslim and if you were bringing your your prayer rug and wearing Islamic clothing to school and doing your prayers in the bathroom

17:23

Which would only be done if you feared for your life But why then would you be wearing specifically

17:28

Islamic clothing if you were fearing for your life? That doesn't make any sense either. There are just so many holes in the story and It would be wonderful if there is an explanation these things but the only person that can answer these things ain't talking and That's not a good thing.

17:47

That's not a good thing. So I will get this linked up so you can take a look at it And Well, that'll be

17:57

That'll be interesting. So there's the update on the Ergon Kanner situation where I got two phone calls on hold we'll get them in just a moment one is on the debate with Michael Brown and So I wanted to play a section.

18:09

It was right toward the end of last week's dividing line on Thursday there was a brief exchange in regards to apostasy now

18:20

I Noted and I think everybody else noted as well that Dr.

18:26

Brown numerous times raised the issue of apostasy and Emphasized that he

18:36

Affirms that People can lose their salvation that they can be truly in Christ and yet lose their salvation

18:47

Plugging in my computer here. It would it works better when I do that And so in that context we we had a

18:58

Little bit of exchange and and later he made a comment too. I don't have that one queued up about How he has it, you know, he doesn't believe he's gonna lose his salvation he knows

19:07

Jesus and so on and so forth But here was the the exchange the the question during the question answer cross -examination period with dr.

19:16

Brown from last week Those who come along and say otherwise are have a false faith They were of us but they were not truly of us as first John describes them

19:25

Okay, so even though they're hearing this letter chosen you chosen, you know, we we us us, right?

19:31

Of course not so that so that you is as a member of the elect assured of your salvation it is impossible than for you to ever fall away a

19:40

Person who is in Jesus Christ is impossible for Christ to lose one of his elect. That is true

19:45

So so you can never so it's 100 % impossible that James White will ever fall away. No, I didn't say that I said that Jesus Christ would not lose any one of his own the question.

19:56

You're you're you're confusing the The reality that Jesus Christ would be a perfect Savior with my knowledge or Actually, not even my knowledge your knowledge of my standing before God I mean anyone who's been in the church knows that we've met people that Sat next to us in the

20:14

Lord's Supper for years on end And if you had asked is this person in Christ? I would have said as far as I can tell he most certainly surely is and then that person went back to the world

20:25

It's possible so that it's possible that and that you are not actually in Christ The only way to know for sure is that you persevere to the end who endures the end shall be saved because saving faith endures

20:35

Okay, so I have a witness and a total assurance. I am in Jesus and because I've entrusted my life to him

20:40

I don't worry don't fear ever question that actually With your viewpoint, you would actually have to make it to the end until you know for sure

20:48

I certainly have a witness that I'm in Jesus Christ You cannot but I cannot know the reality of your witness

20:56

Simply by your statement of it any more than you can know the reality of mine What what is the only infallible evidence of that is of course enduring to the end because that demonstrates the supernatural faith, but Okay, so there there was the exchange.

21:11

I found it rather interesting because the the attack on the reformed understanding of Perseverance and especially of one's knowledge of one's relationship with Christ Since we don't know the identity of the elect

21:29

We keep emphasizing that even though much of the criticism of our belief is based upon the assumption that we do know

21:35

The identity of the elect we know the difference between the elect and not elect person infallibly somehow as if God's decree has been

21:44

Released for us in some website someplace so we know exactly who the elect aren't enough because we recognize that difference between The fact that God has knowledge unto himself that we do not have

21:56

Then there's this well, then you can't really have any assurance at all. That's the Dave Hunt approach that says

22:04

And of course he goes to the other extreme to where he embraces the anti lordship perspective, which

22:10

I consider completely heretical I believe that to deny the

22:15

Lordship of Christ's salvation to say that repentance is is an as an optional thing in salvation Is a false gospel.

22:21

It's heretical And those who promote that are promoting a false gospel in churches. There's no question about that But that's the direction that that some go they'll go to the other extreme to try to stay away from the

22:34

Obvious result of all of this and that is if you have saving faith you have it as the gift of God Because if saving faith is just something anybody can do

22:44

Then saving faith something you could lose If if saving faith is not something you lose then it's obviously the gift of God It's working the

22:51

Holy Spirit and so to maintain that human autonomy. You you can't allow that to happen.

22:56

You've got to say no, no We can't go there But that's not what? That's not that's not

23:03

Michaels position. He's he's not taking He's not saying that that that viewpoint at all and so It struck me as a little bit strange because Michael was a

23:20

Calvinist for a number of years while doing seminary level education and So to say oh, well, then then you don't know the only way you can have assurance is by your perseverance

23:34

And so you're just always left in a state of anxiety over this particular issue I Didn't get a chance to ask but does does

23:43

Michael believe in? False faith does he believe there are what about those people in first John and What about?

23:52

The the testimony of the Spirit. How does that come? Is that just some? Spiritual experience that is is that what the

23:59

New Testament teaches? One of the most commonly cited texts That is quoted in regards

24:08

This is first John 5 13 These things I've written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life

24:16

Well, what are these things? Well everything that came before Having the

24:22

Son and having life verse 12 loving the brethren walking in the light All this not loving the world who that one's really uncomfortable

24:32

Anybody who can walk through first John and Go. Oh, yeah

24:38

No problem with me on any of that. I I'm perfectly loving toward the brethren and I I Walk in the light all the time.

24:46

I I never stopped for a rest in the shade and I Have no love for the world whatsoever, you know well,

24:56

I guess that person could just simply easily dismiss this idea of Growing in one's conviction and awareness of the

25:05

Spirit of God and things like that but us reformed folk tend to tend to view the process of sanctification my

25:13

Coming to know my sin even in a greater way My absolute dependence upon the grace of God the experience of of God's Spirit in my life over time

25:23

Mortifying the deeds of the flesh this is where one's confidence comes from and one's growth and grace comes from and and That sense of security is is not just simply based upon the ticket punched

25:38

I'm going to heaven idea, which a lot of people have as a false faith and So I've seen a lot of folks who want to dismiss that and go

25:48

Oh, well, you know, you know just as long as you've been baptized or as long as this one and and I see a

25:56

Real deep discussion in Scripture about test yourself to see whether you're in the faith

26:05

That balanced with rejoicing in the perfect work of God in Christ and It just seems that on that one issue people do not want to be balanced.

26:15

They tend to fall one direction or the other In regards to to that Either they end up with a libertine

26:23

ISM or some type of legalism or or some type of imbalance when it comes that issue

26:29

So I really wasn't certain You know where Michael was going there Because as I said, well, certainly

26:36

I have a testimony of the Spirit of God. I can look back over my life But to claim infallibility.

26:42

Well, that's that's really in this life Is to ignore the reality of the fact that well

26:49

We know a lot of folks who once sat in the pew next to us who deceived themselves

26:56

And I think it does come back to a theological issue and that is that I have a very strong and I believe biblical view of the total depravity of man and the ability of the sinful heart to deceive and I don't think that's a part of an

27:13

Arminian perspective I just don't see that Arminian ISM has that foundation within it to really embrace and understand that that self -deceptive nature of Sin and the result being that there can be people who really do claim to be in Christ, but who in fact are not in Christ at all and that it is the

27:37

Long term runner. It's the person who perseveres over time the older I get

27:43

The more of that perspective that I have, you know when people what do you think about this move of God in this place?

27:49

No, well, let's see what the result is 20 years from now changed lives established churches

27:57

Glorification of God and his truth or will it have just gone by the wayside like so many of the big movements of the past That didn't end up having any meaningful impact at all

28:09

That's the only way and unfortunately in our day and time when you want, you know, I want to know now I want to I want instant microwaves, you know right now right now right now tell me about is this

28:18

God or not? Well, sometimes it takes time. That's certainly the message of the Old Testament God's Saints sometimes had to wait and to see and observe and to do so with with patience not something that's real popular these days

28:32

It's seven seven seven five three three four one, I believe all of our lines are full right now So we're gonna take our break and then come back

28:39

With Adam and Pierre and Jim and your phone calls as well here on the dividing line

28:49

It's all works righteousness, you know Can I manupature grace

28:56

In some religious place by weeping hard on your face

29:08

Hello everyone, this is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

29:15

The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

29:23

Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha and Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

29:33

Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?

29:42

We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well

29:53

Support Alpha Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

29:59

Thank you Public crimes the criminal mishandling of God's Word may be

30:04

James White's most provocative book yet White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned

30:14

Based firmly upon the bedrock of Scripture one crime after another is laid bare for all to see

30:20

The pulpit is to be a place where God speaks from his word what has happened to this sacred duty in our day

30:25

The charges are as follows prostitution using the gospel for financial gain pandering to pluralism cowardice under fire felonious is a

30:36

Jesus entertainment without a license and Cross -dressing ignoring God's ordinance regarding the roles of men and women is a public crime occurring in your town

30:45

Get pulpit crimes in the bookstore at a omen org Under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality

31:03

Even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior in Their book the same -sex controversy

31:11

James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the Bible's teaching on the subject

31:18

Explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including

31:23

Genesis Leviticus and Romans Expanding on these scriptures they refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law in a straightforward and loving manner

31:35

They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people the same -sex controversy defending and clarifying the

31:46

Bible's message about Homosexuality get your copy in the bookstore at a omen Oh All right, let's get to our phone callers today here on the dividing line and let's talk with Adam I'm trying there it goes.

32:11

Hi Adam. Hey, dr. White. I wanted to tell you that I actually have had a interaction with dr.

32:23

Brown on Genesis 50 20 And I noticed many of the same things that you noticed

32:30

In particular We were dealing with the interpretation and how we should understand it and he of course was taking the classic view of Walter Brueggemann and pointed to a passage like Job 5 where it says that he frustrates the plotting of the shrews their hands cannot attain success and It was really interesting because I saw a lot of the same things use it a lot of Leaping out of the text to go to other words and other places where the word is used in totally different conduct for example a shove

33:13

He took me forever and to admit that we can translate her shove as intent

33:20

Because I'm quoting commentaries and lexicons and you know, that's not the whole meaning of the term I said, but that's the context in which we're talking about here.

33:27

We're talking about we're talking about intending evil and What was it's been 30 years since I read read

33:37

Brueggemann on Genesis. What what was he trying to say? It actually meant he was trying to say that it meant that God just frustrated their plan

33:45

Instead of that he actually intended or ordained what they said and he was trying to argue that the two hashavs here really aren't parallel In fact, the

33:54

Hebrew Aramaic lexicon of the Old Testament actually does try to argue that there's a different meaning on the basis If you have one preposition of advantage in the first clause and disadvantage in the second clause

34:02

But I don't think that's very sound semantics. Yeah, because you can't because the fact that you're in parallel here

34:09

In fact, it was yeah, you would think anyone who's familiar with Hebrew parallel would be able to see it there Well, but the other problem is too

34:16

I also pointed out that the you intended God intended it for good is a feminine suffix

34:21

The only other feminine now the context is ah, I took it to several of my fellow students and they said yeah

34:27

That's that's probably right. The the antecedents probably were ah, dr Brown wanted to say it was a feminine neutrum that it was actually summing up the entire first clause and I said put it in bulky

34:38

O 'Connor walk, you know times in it unless there's a that only occurs where there's no clear antecedent and The real thing that got when he tried to say that ah

34:49

Generally in its normal use it shouldn't it shouldn't be understood as evil. She'd understood as bad or calamity

34:55

That really threw me for a loop either. Well, that's the normal usage of I said, yeah But I mean you've got in the context, you know

35:02

Joseph's brother saying we have done a lot to you You know, forgive us, you know lift up take away our transgressions

35:10

And so on so forth and you've also got throughout the book of justice you got your knowledge of good and evil at the beginning this theme of the good line the evil line and so on and so forth and Then at the very end you have this statement

35:21

You intended it for evil God intended it for good as those two phrases are used throughout the book I thought they also form a kind of book ends to both ends of the book and Unless you're going to try to tear that apart

35:33

You're gonna have a major problem. I I Was the whole time I was talking to dr.

35:39

Brown, you know, I I have great respect for the man He's a senior scholar. He's somebody who's kept the faith in a very liberal field

35:45

Yeah, but at the same time I was looking at this and I was I was just saying, you know as you said fundamental issues of how we do semantics and how we do meaning within language and It was just really hard to see somebody who

36:00

I entirely respected and not to say no. I I don't think that that's right I think that there are problems here.

36:07

Yeah, Genesis Genesis 50 is high is I don't care how much Hebrew, you know It's it's pretty hard to get around There's just too much there.

36:15

It's not like it's a it's not like it's a passing comment you know, you might try to get away with something like that in Acts 13 48 or something like that, but the the entire

36:26

Understanding that Joseph is given the whole reason for his Forgiveness for the brothers is his recognition of the sovereign hand of God and the fact that God Intended this to happen to save many alive this day

36:41

He sees the hand of God in these things and he sees the intention of God. It's not just God went.

36:47

Oh Wow, I've got a problem here. Let's see if I can find a way to use This in a way that it is no there was an intentionality in the actions that is if you take that away then

37:04

I'm not sure if you had any conversation with him on Isaiah 10 Where you have the exact same things being said even more explicitly in regards to bringing the

37:12

Assyrians as a instrument of judgment, but if you don't have those two texts, what's your basis for understanding acts for and The assertion that you have all these different people and They all have different motivations, but they're doing exactly what

37:27

God's hand and God's will intended to occur Well, one of the things we did and this is where I thought out of the conversation because he was we were getting into areas

37:35

Where I wasn't confident and that is he tried to go the theological route and say well We need to understand it in the light of these texts where God distances himself from evil and I agree we do

37:45

But it just seems to me like you have to put the two texts together Right and understand what's being said there and I had at that point time

37:51

I had to say well one of my friends said I was a you know I had a friend very nicely say I think is an exegesis is very theologically driven here and You know because of the fact

38:00

I'm not a theologian. I am studying the issue. It's it's It's a whole lot different It's like you're being thrown into a big pool of water and trying to put the molecules together

38:10

Rather than just dealing with individual texts, so I'm I'm just I wasn't confident

38:15

So I decided to tell him you know if that's the way you want to go That's fine, but I don't think exegetically right if you stay in the text you can derive that from that right?

38:24

Well Adam, I appreciate your insights. You clearly have been working hard in school I remember you call a number of years ago, and you wouldn't have had that kind of information available to you

38:33

So that's that's good to hear so I appreciate you letting us know about that Okay, thanks

38:38

Adam. All right. God bless Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

38:43

Let's talk with Pierre. Hi Pierre. Hi. How you doing? It's been a while Yes You haven't talked on subject watching you have but I just wasn't able to get through or I was too busy

38:55

Working yes, I have to work for a living well All of us are trying to do these days, and it gets harder and harder for some odd reason

39:04

Yeah, anyway. I was I was want to make briefly one quick comment about Robert Price, I really thought that was a very interesting presentation

39:14

And that he sounds like he's a very interesting individual He seems to have a real grasp of them of the ancient knowledge

39:21

And he also seems to have a real fluidity of speech I mean he presented his things rapidly without stumbling without having to pause and think it just sort of rolled off his out of his mouth

39:31

And I thought that was very interesting and of course from my perspective. He made a number of good points Really, but I'm looking forward

39:40

Are you still a Mormon? I am so so why I'm a little confused what what good points did did

39:47

Robert Price make? There I'm a little confused Well, I mean doesn't even think

39:53

Jesus existed I think Mormons don't like that, but I think he made from an LDS right from my perspective anyway

40:02

Is that I don't think you can prove? You know their resurrection or any of these things

40:09

To me, it's a matter of you have the testimony of the witnesses

40:14

And then you have a choice you either believe or you don't believe Yeah, because there's no way to prove it.

40:21

Okay, so the so that's that's how the Apostles presented it. They said well Hey, you know what?

40:27

You know, we're we can't we're not really saying this happened in history But we're just gonna tell you we think it did and so it's up to you to make a choice

40:37

Is that how you think the Apostles were preaching? No, I think they presented it because they were there they were eyewitnesses

40:43

You know, but Robert Price would say thousand years later Uh -huh I can't know whether you know

40:50

They're not there for me to question them or to cross -examine their them or to to you know

40:56

To be able to evaluate their motives all we have are Relatively few number of books left for us to look at and you know, we don't we can't question

41:08

Paul You know what what exactly happened on the on the road to Damascus? What did you experience? Well, you know, what were you thinking?

41:14

What were you feeling before all this happened and were you really a hard -nosed Jew that wanted to destroy all the

41:20

Christians? Or did you really have this sort of Christian feeling inside of you that was festering and so would this be similar to?

41:27

Are wanting to ask, you know, Joseph Smith why his first vision story evolved from the 1832 accounts and and so on so forth.

41:36

Would that be similar to that since it's now a hundred and yeah, you know a Century and a half is has passed

41:43

The the eyewitnesses are gone. Yes. So would you say it's the same thing now there?

41:49

For the people today, you're absolutely correct You either you know, we give you the story we tell you about it

41:55

We give you our own personal witness and then we you know, we it's up to you to decide

42:03

That's why we teach one -on -one. We never teach on mass Because we don't convert on mass

42:09

We don't have people coming, you know to the to the front of the church and and confess Christ and publicly

42:15

Make that kind of announcement, you know, it's done on a one -on -one basis Okay, so your but your question was about William Lane Craig.

42:22

So I Go ahead Anyway, so I do have the right man That's William Lane Craig was the most the talking on that presentation on Mormonism.

42:30

I guess it was about two. Yes Presentations ago anyway, they had a question which

42:38

I didn't really understand both you and he used the term here fluidity of Mormon doctrine

42:43

Yes, what exactly did you mean by that? I didn't quite understand that. Well, he was stating his assertion was that there is

42:51

No creedal statement or no statement of faith, there's there's no unchanging

43:00

Core shall we say of LDS teaching and I was saying that's sort of hard to figure out

43:07

I'm not sure what you mean by that My assumption was he was probably reflecting

43:14

The the reality that if you have living prophets you always have a level of fluidity as to current interpretation and Things like that, but it almost was like he was saying that, you know, the current prophet could just simply say hey

43:30

Yeah, you know all that stuff about exaltation to Godhood dad. Don't worry about it. We really don't know anything about that Let's move on from there as if there could be just fundamental contradiction and yeah, maybe some liberal

43:40

Mormons actually believe that I don't know what you believe about it But obviously from my perspective if a modern

43:46

LDS prophet were to come along and say Let's talk about the King Follett field of discourse all stuff section 132 section 130.

43:52

It's all false That that's not true. Then there would be a an epistemological

44:00

Catastrophe crisis in in the LDS faith Because the current prophets

44:08

Role and an ability and standing as a prophet is dependent upon Those from whom he received his priesthood authority

44:16

And if they were in his words false prophets and false teachers to begin with then you've got a major problem on your hands so But I'm assuming that that's what?

44:27

What you're referring to and we were talking about the fluidity. I just I just didn't feel there's What I thought maybe he was saying

44:34

But I just want to emphasize the fact that they at least from my perspective as a Latter -day Saint There is no fluidity of Doctrine, I think that and I've been in the church for over 40 years now

44:46

You know, I've served as the bishop and and other callings in the church and I think

44:52

I'm a pretty well grounded in Mormon doctrine and pretty well solid in my faith and I can tell you that in the 40 years so that I've been in the church.

45:04

I don't see any change in doctrine That Joseph Smith What he taught?

45:10

You know hundred and whatever year 80 years ago or so It's really the same as it is today

45:17

We there's nothing has changed the King Follett sermon is still occasionally referred to from time to time

45:23

You know, we still sing. Oh my father in In church, we still also sing

45:30

If you could hide to collab But you haven't you don't feel you've seen a pretty major shift in emphasis there has been

45:44

I think a Emphasis on the part of the church to try emphasize that we have we are believers in Jesus Christ Because individuals who are the lack of a better term anti Mormon Try to emphasize try to get across the idea to people that we're not

46:02

Christians We're some this off -the -wall cuff cult that you know

46:07

You shouldn't be listening to and so the church is trying to counter that by saying no, that's not true at all

46:13

We are very much Christians, maybe not traditional Christians But we're very much Christians in the sense that we worship and believe in Jesus Christ as our

46:22

Savior but 40 years ago you had apostles like Bruce R. McConkie who identified the the doctrine the

46:29

Trinity as the whisperings of Satan and emphasized that the Book of Mormon's discussion of save there are two churches only the church lamb the church the devil and Joseph Fielding Smith and his discussions in doctrines of salvation

46:43

You've got a pretty strong emphasis upon the fact that the the LDS Church alone

46:50

Possesses priesthood authority and no one else possesses that priesthood authority. Don't you think a lot of that emphasis?

46:58

has Changed especially over the past. Oh 12 years or so Well, yeah,

47:05

I think there's perhaps been a change of emphasis but You know, there's there's that doesn't mean a change in doctrine.

47:13

Nothing has changed with regards to that plea Still hold to the view that only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

47:19

Saints is authorized to administer the ordinances of salvation And there is in essence no salvation outside of the church

47:28

Now this is true that other people may hold to principles of truth. We certainly believe that But you know ultimately that's not going to do you any good

47:38

Don't you think the missionaries likewise as they go into people's homes are approaching things in a very

47:45

Very different way than then then they did. I mean, I certainly see this when

47:51

When we first went out to the LDS Easter pageant, we first went up to Salt Lake City and talked to folks

47:57

I didn't have to carry Books with me to Demonstrate to Mormons that that what

48:04

I was talking about was actually Mormon belief even the kids Understood the

48:10

King follow funeral discourse and the plurality of gods and a priesthood authorities and things like that now

48:16

You you talk to your average Mormon in the street these days and oh my goodness. You better be lugging along The Journal of Discourse is documentary history of church teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith and about half dozen other volumes because they're gonna look at you like you landed from Kolob if you start talking about a plurality of gods and and Things like that there there there there

48:38

I've certainly seen a major change in in the emphasis of The teaching of the church during that time again, that would be to me a change in policy and practice

48:49

But it does not reflect a change in doctrine, but I thought the leaders of the church were inspired leaders

48:55

They were they are so God has inspired a a change in practice to where?

49:02

Central doctrines, I mean Joseph Smith identified exaltation as the the first principle of the gospel to know that God was once a man

49:08

Lived on another planet, etc, etc Now you could talk to the Mormon for a long time before ever hearing anything like that if they even believe it

49:16

Because that's because you're trying to start Too far ahead. You're trying to jump too far ahead.

49:22

We're trying to begin at the beginning You know, it's just like learning math. You don't jump into algebra right away

49:28

You start with the simple arithmetic and then you evolve into a more complex forms of mathematics

49:33

Then what did Joseph Smith mean when he said it was the first principle of the gospel? Well, eventually you get there

49:39

So you start with other principles before the first principle? I guess

49:48

Well, I think ultimately yes I think you you have to begin with the more simple doctrines which eventually lead to that particular understanding

49:57

I think that to me the the King Follett sermon was Joseph Smith's greatest

50:02

Sermon because it finally revealed exactly who God is and what his relationship is to us

50:09

And I think that it kind of removes any questions or doubt That might exist

50:14

Okay, so the Latter -day Saints get there, but it's kind of line upon line and precept upon pre yeah

50:21

They used to get there a whole lot faster. I mean the missionaries even the publications of the church Which I assume are done under the direction of the first presidency of the church the the

50:32

When when I first was witnessing the Mormons long ago They gave me Joseph Smith's testimony and right there in black and white.

50:39

I was told that I should join none of those churches Baptist Presbyterian Methodist, they're all corrupt their creeds and abomination their professors corrupt, etc, etc, and That was that was in the first visit so so The first are you saying that that things have changed

50:57

So that the change in terms of the emphasis of where we approach people. Yes, and the doctrine remains the same

51:04

This first vision is not different. We still teach the first vision. We still read that passage Except that once the people that you had baptized

51:13

Knew about the first vision what it meant now it seems to me You're more than you

51:19

Speaking of the Mormon Church as a whole or more than happy to get somebody through the baptistry before they've ever heard about The fact that this is the only true church

51:33

I've taught I've I've helped people back out who? Came to me and and they're like, you know,

51:39

I've become a Mormon and well what convinced you to believe this believe we believe that Yeah, here's the documentation what convinced you to believe this and and they go and they read these things themselves and come back on that I never told me anything about this

51:52

I had absolutely no idea that the idea basically has been Get him baptized as soon as it's humanly possible and then friendship them in from there show them these things very slowly

52:02

That's one of the major differences and I think you see this being reflected in the fact that again when

52:09

I talk to Mormons now They're ignorant of many of their most Fundamental affirmations they just they don't know now

52:18

I know there's been a huge growth from when I first started studying Mormonism 3 .3 million people to are they claiming 13 million now?

52:25

I don't mean like that. Yeah about 13 million Okay, that's that's more than quadrupling and that means you have to do a lot of teaching and stuff like that Etc, etc.

52:34

I suppose if you claim they have an inspired leaders that shouldn't be much of an issue, but I have seen a

52:40

Major change in the understanding of the average Mormon person about their faith in that time period and I've also seen a lot of encroaching post -modernism

52:50

To where it's like well, you know, this is sort of our view and if you like it, that's great

52:56

If not, hey, you know Are you burnt are you burning up here? I Am on call.

53:05

Oh, okay. I'm a physician by profession. Okay So that nurse is trying to get hold of me.

53:11

Well, then we need to let you get to that nurse as soon as possible We do not want to be responsible for what might happen

53:16

But I just want to reemphasize that fact that there's really no paradigm shift here as far as doctrine is concerned

53:23

I understand what you're saying and I largely agree with what you're saying that there's an emphasis Changing the emphasis of how we present ourselves to the world

53:31

And then the other point I wanted to make real quick before I go is that the issue he raised the issue about the professors at BYU And I kind of got the impression that he seems to think that the tail is wagging the dog

53:44

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, and I want to emphasize no that does not happen. Okay, I want you to know that the

53:53

First presidency and the corner 12 have a firm grip on this and Some professors that's too far out of line.

54:00

It's kind of like well, we think maybe you should find a job elsewhere. I You know, I I agree

54:07

Hopefully you heard I was I was agreeing with you on that or you know your perspective

54:13

I was not agreeing with him But there are a bunch of people in evangelicalism that think that that's the way to change

54:19

Mormonism to make Mormonism more orthodox is through the professors at BYU and in essence

54:25

They are the ones now leading the church and the general authorities are just following behind them Just doing it slowly enough so that the

54:33

Mormons don't get all upset That's that's basically the mindset amongst many people and I want you also to reemphasize at least from my perspective as a

54:40

Latter -day Saint that I Don't think if the church will ever shift over into Traditional Christianity the way the worldwide

54:47

Church of God did ain't gonna happen All right, we need to let you go talk to that nurse

54:56

Thanks your call was interesting. I Just I don't want to be responsible for All right real quick, let's talk with Jim in Pennsylvania Jim Genesis 4 -7.

55:13

Yes, sir. Oh, yeah Have a question on 4 -7. I was interested in a debate here on Calvinism I've been trying to get a handle on it for probably the last five or six years and had a lot of benefit from your

55:24

Books and debates and things. So I want to thank you for that. Mm -hmm, but my question is on 4 -7 where there's

55:32

About Cain and his countenance falling and all that and then in verse 7 He says to him more or less at least when my understanding of it is

55:41

Cain if you do what I've told you to do You'll be okay. If you don't do what I tell you to do.

55:46

In other words, if you don't come to me Sin is at your door, but you must master it

55:53

So if I don't go to God that I'm it's all the pressures on to me and seems to me that Cain has proven

55:59

He can't because he goes out and he kills his brother if I take the

56:05

Calvinist view is God asking him to do something. He can't do I Guess is kind of where I'm coming from.

56:13

No all of all of God's all of God's law represents God's holy will and you could easily say that the

56:20

Biblical view is that God's law commands us to do what we as slaves of sin are not able to do

56:28

That's the whole point of Romans chapter 8 Romans chapter 8 the Apostle tells us that those who are calling the flesh cannot submit themselves the law of God They they are incapable of doing what is pleasing before God But the law continues to exist because it is

56:45

God's intention to use that law first of all as a means of curbing evil Secondly as the means of condemning those who love their evil and third the law is used in the heart of those that the

56:58

Spirit then grants the ears to hear as The means of their recognition of their sin driving them then to the

57:05

Savior as Paul puts it in Galatians It is our schoolmaster to lead us unto Christ. And so the law has multiple uses but Many of those uses are in regards to judgment

57:18

They are judged either either God uses them to to in essence not corral but to wall in The evil of man and hate just look at our own society

57:28

When God's law was was a part and parcel the experience of people in our society

57:34

There's a whole lot different than it is today where you're not even allowed to mention these things There's there's no recognition that we have a creator and he has a law

57:42

So in regards Genesis 4 7 Remember this is right the beginning right and God's having to say to to Cain you need to recognize that there are going to be results to what you do

57:53

If you do, well, your countenance will be lifted up that is Instead of the disappointment you have in regards to your sacrifice

58:00

Your countenance will be lifted up. But if you do not well Send to the door and its desire is for you and it will master you or you will master it

58:09

Well, he doesn't master it because he kills Abel his brother in the very next verse Okay.

58:15

Alrighty. Yeah. Okay. Thanks for hanging in there Jim and thanks for calling today God bless you and thank you for listening

58:21

Don't forget an hour earlier on Thursday for the second part of the debate with Michael Brown. Thanks for listening

58:27

God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

59:19

If you'd like to contact us call us at 602 -973 -4602 or write us at p .o

59:25

Box three seven one zero six Phoenix, Arizona eight five zero six nine You can also find us on the world wide web at a omen org

59:32

That's a o m i n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks