June 3, 2024 Show with Ken McFarland on “Forgiveness Through the Lens of Heaven”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this very first live broadcast in June of 2024,

Monday, June 3rd. And I am delighted to have a program today featuring a first -time guest.

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Well, we are in the 26th year since the

Omaha bombing in Northern Ireland, which was the largest terrorist attack in Northern Ireland's history with the largest number of casualties left behind after a terrorist attack in Omaha, and that would have been 31 people who died, including two unborn infants.

And today's guest was a witness to this. His name is

Ken McFarlane. He's a former member of the Royal Ulster Constabulary in Northern Ireland, and in 1998 he bore witness to the devastating

Omaha bombing, and this event that he witnessed eventually led him on a journey to discover the true nature of God, and today we are addressing his book,

Forgiveness Through the Lens of Heaven, Dealing with Unresolved Conflict.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever on Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio, Ken McFarlane.

Thank you, Chris. Good evening to all the listeners. And what we do here on Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio, whenever we have a first -time guest, we have that guest provide for our listeners a summary of their salvation testimony, which would include the religious atmosphere, if any, in which you were raised, and the kinds of providential circumstances our sovereign

Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you.

So before we hear more about your book, I would love to hear your salvation testimony.

Yes, certainly, Chris. Well, I was born into a farming family in 1960.

We were—well, I would say I was sent to Sunday school and church. I didn't have a lot of interest in church in my early years, and when

I left home to join the police force in 1978, I escaped from that church environment, and I didn't really have a lot of time for church.

Although my wife came from a Christian family, we got into a habit of not attending church, and we hadn't much of a faith life, really, around the home.

However, things began to change in 1998. Through a series of events,

I suppose I came to realize that maybe in the world we lived in, that maybe the politicians didn't have all the answers, that our salvation was not going to be found in men.

And I suppose witnessing the event you spoke about brought home to me the fragility of life and the potential for wasted life, and I began to think again about faith.

As I had mentioned to you before the show, many years ago, my dear mother had sent me to children's missions, and there

I heard that I certainly heard the gospel and I was aware that I needed a Savior. However, this

Savior, I had shut out of my life for many, many years, but experiencing these events in 1998 brought me to a realization that the

Savior was indeed essential in life, and I really came to the conclusion that I could make no sense of life outside of exploring that faith journey.

So I was brought to faith in 1998. I began to attend church shortly afterwards, a good church recommended to me by a friend

I worked with, a friend who recently passed away, incidentally, in the Lord. But again,

I suppose I developed a very inquisitive nature. I was always asking questions, I was always searching, and I went through several worship environments before I settled where I am now, because I suppose

I would be the type of person who would like to be, try to be doctrinally sound.

I suppose my journey took me through theological college as well, but I settled in the environment and back into what

I was brought up Presbyterian, and I eventually came back to that fold, because I believe that, I suppose, theologically speaking, certainly in relation to the

Westminster Confession of Faith, the church broadly holds to the truth. So I was able to work in that environment and encourage young people to follow through in that environment, and that's where I am at the minute.

As far as my faith journey goes, I continue to study when

I can, but again, it was just trying to answer those questions that brought me along that journey and brought me even into this journey, looking at what is a very complicated subject, at face value anyway, of forgiveness.

Yes, and providentially, you and I have some mutual acquaintances.

The first is Angus Stewart, who is a pastor in Northern Ireland.

Tell us how you know Angus. Well, I suppose I'm very lucky.

I have a few close friends who indulged me with all the questions

I had years ago, and a friend introduced me to Angus probably about, I'm sure it's over 20 years ago,

Angus came down to our town, our local town here, and gave a series of lectures. I have to say, some of the stuff

Angus taught, I fully agreed with. Some of it, initially I didn't, but I found over the years that where Angus goes, it's not a bad idea to follow.

I did change some views as a result of Angus's teaching, but yeah, although I suppose

I didn't like continually ringing up Angus to ask questions, so I've sort of cooled off a little bit, but we do speak now and again, and I like to catch up with him now and again.

In fact, I want to say, we're maybe thinking of moving house. There is a possibility we could end up maybe not far from where Angus's church is, so there's a possibility

I may meet up with him in his own environment, maybe in the not -too -distant future.

Great, and if anybody wants to look up interviews that I've conducted with Pastor Angus Stewart, who is a pastor in Ballymena, Northern Ireland, just type in the name

Angus—he's the only person I've ever interviewed named Angus—in the Iron Sherpins Iron Radio search engine, ironsherpinsironradio .com,

and you will see all of the interviews that I've conducted with Pastor Angus Stewart.

The other individual, an old friend of mine who I haven't spoken with in years, and I've got to try to rekindle my friendship with him,

Pastor John Greer of the Ballymena Free Presbyterian Church. How do you know Pastor John?

Yes, well, I mentioned in my testimony that many years ago my dear mother would have sent me to children's missions, and back in the early 1970s,

John was a minister in what was then a fledgling Free Presbyterian Church in a small village called

Six Mile Cross. My mother would have sent me along, and as I said, it was listening to John's preaching that I first became aware of my need of a saviour, albeit as the seed didn't bear fruit for many years later.

But I had the pleasure of meeting him probably, I think now maybe about 20 years ago was the last time, and I had the pleasure of thanking him for his ministry then, and to let him know that eventually,

Lord willing, I bore some fruit. Yes, he's a powerful, powerful preacher.

I've had the privilege of seeing and hearing him preach in person when he was pastoring here in the

United States a number of years ago at a Free Presbyterian Church in Malvern, Pennsylvania.

I had invited him. My pastor is at Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York, where I used to be a member.

My pastors gave me the privilege of organizing a conference on the five points of Calvinism.

In 1995, when we emerged as a church and wanted to have a conference to declare to everyone the beliefs that we cherish, and I selected five different preachers, and one of them actually is my friend

Dr. Joel Beeky, who's speaking at the pastor's luncheon I'm hosting this

Thursday here in Pennsylvania, and another one was John Greer. And I have nothing but the highest regards for John, wonderful brother in Christ.

Well, 1998, as we mentioned, not only is the year that you came to Christ, but 1998 was the year of that terrorist attack conducted or perpetrated by the real

IRA, Irish Republican Army, who were upset about the

IRA's peace treaty with the British. And I believe it was four months after that peace treaty was signed between the

IRA and the British, the real IRA group, the more radical group, perpetrated this bombing where, we said before, 31 people were killed, including two unborn infants, and that was the largest loss of life from a terrorist attack in Northern Ireland's history during the time of the

Troubles. Tell us perhaps briefly, before we get into the contents of your book, more about the

Troubles so our listeners understand. Yes, it was certainly a dark time, and it's funny,

I am now just in the early 60s, and it really consumed, you know, the first,

I suppose, 50 years of my life, both up to the ceasefire and I suppose that instability after that.

Really, I think one of the biggest issues I have with the conflict is, it was painted, particularly by Irish Republicans, as a struggle for freedom fighting the

British, when in actual fact it really was little more than a sectarian struggle.

In my book, I quote just a few statistics, that 80 % of those people that were killed in the conflict were native -born

Irish people, only 13 % were actually British soldiers who were sent here to keep the peace after the

Troubles had really ignited. With the result that a lot of the fatalities came from Christian backgrounds, and this again left a legacy then, of course, today where we have a lot of the victims, people who have the bereaved relatives, came from a

Christian background and therefore struggled with this subject of forgiveness from a biblical perspective.

But again, just briefly in the book, we have now a degree of stability.

The real IRA, unfortunately, are still very much on the scene. However, we pray that the security forces through their intelligence gathering have managed to keep them under wraps for a lot of the time, but we pray that continues.

But there's still a blot on the landscape, I would say. And is this organization the real

IRA? Are they still in existence? Yes, yes, they would still be, yes, they would still pose a threat on the scene.

We just, we have a court case going on at the minute where they had the murder of a reporter a few years ago, Lyra McKee is currently going on in Northern Ireland.

Again, they still pose a threat, although the security forces do appear to be able to gather intelligence from them, which results in these court cases.

But I say, yeah, they're still very much on the scene here, although numerically speaking, and capability speaking, a shadow of what the

IRA themselves were back during the 70s, 80s, and 90s. Now, did they ever turn on violently their counterparts in the

IRA? No, not really. No, no, there never was that. No, there never was that.

No, there never was any real interior or internal fighting between them.

There have been a few killings associated with disagreements in and around the

Republican movement over the years, but again, nothing that really would have pointed to an all -out conflict between the two, no.

Well, you know, if anybody listening wants to hear a little bit more about the conflict that was going on in the times of the

Troubles from the 60s to the 90s in Northern Ireland, you can also type in the name

DeCourcy in my Iron Troupers, Iron Radio search engine, D -E -C -O -U -R -C -Y.

That's when my guest Philip DeCourcy was my guest in February of 2016.

He's the host of Know the Truth, and he was a

Royal Ulster constable as well. Just out of curiosity, have you ever heard of Philip DeCourcy, brother?

I haven't, I haven't, Chris, no. No, I can't say I have. Yes, I believe he is currently in California here in the

States, and he is a pastor of a church that has some close affiliation with Grace Community Church of Sun Valley, California, where John MacArthur pastors.

But folks, if you want to look up that broadcast, I'm sure you'll find it fascinating. So, we already said that this bombing, this terrorist attack in Oman was the pivotal point that began your journey in really coming to Christ, but it also put you on a journey to study and learn more about and discover what you believe the

Bible truly teaches about forgiveness. So, what was it about this experience that occurred in 1998 that even brought you to wonder what

God truly had to say about the issue of forgiveness, which led to the writing of your book,

Forgiveness Through the Lens of Heaven? Yes, well, I sometimes lament amongst young converts nowadays that there isn't a thirst for study.

I don't know, I just developed a thirst for study. All sorts of subjects, and forgiveness is one of those.

I would say that probably within the last maybe five or ten years,

I would have been interested in conflict resolution. I would have attended conferences looking at this subject, and I suppose my appetite was whetted probably about eight years ago.

I attended a conference locally where the speakers were very much pushing the view that everyone needed to forgive and move on, and I was slightly uncomfortable with that because I wasn't sure, and then a pastor friend who had actually been sitting beside me at that conference sent me an article by Timothy Keller, an article he had written about the unforgiving servant, and I read

Timothy Keller's review on that, and again, I was quite surprised because I felt that it didn't align with Scripture teaching in some respects.

So, from then, I always had an interest in subject of forgiveness. More recently, I've been working with victims groups just as a volunteer, and again, just listening to stories, and particularly people who were either from a church background and maybe drifted away or still were in a church background, and time and time again, this subject cropped up about forgiveness and how they felt the church had lost contact with the victims because they were pushing, many leaders were pushing this view that people must forgive and move on, and I felt that the subject needed looked at, so I started to look at it really more in depth probably about three or four years ago, and then started the book back in,

I suppose the Covid lockdown brought that about because I was sitting at home with nothing to do, and I started to think, well, now's as good a time as any to write this book, and the more

I got into it, yeah, the more I found that I think it's one of those subjects where I do believe the water's been muddled terribly by a lot of theologians, and while it is a complicated subject and while it is a terribly challenging subject,

I do believe it is a relatively straightforward subject whenever you cut away all the,

I suppose, the false teaching or the suggestions made by a lot of other teachers and preachers on the subject.

Yes, this is also a very controversial subject, a subject that I first became familiar with as far as a view that was different from the majority view.

I first became aware of the view that I believe is very close to your view, expounded by the late

J. Adams. J. Adams, who is considered the grandfather of euthetic counseling, also known as biblical counseling, and he was a

Presbyterian minister, a prolific writer, conference speaker, and while I was working part -time for a publisher, a

Christian publisher named Calvary Press, they had brought into print a book by Dr.

Adams titled From Forgiven to Forgiving, and I read that book and became convinced of the view that he defended, which is that the idea that it seems the majority of Christendom teaches that we are to forgive anyone that sins against us for anything, even if they are unrepentant, even if they don't ever ask us for forgiveness, even if they are still joyfully living in the sin that they perpetrated against us, or perpetrated against us, and even if we've never met them, we are supposed to forgive people and this is a widely held view, not only in the broader evangelical world, but even within Reformed religious circles, theologically

Reformed churches and denominations. It is the dominant view. In fact, one of the few things that I disagree with one of my modern -day heroes over,

Dr. John MacArthur, other than his dispensationalism, is

I disagree with him on this very issue. He believes that we are to forgive people even if they never ask for it.

Now, I know that this is very controversial, gets people angry, and sometimes the discussions over it create more heat than light, which is unfortunate, but I think it does have important ramifications.

And if you have any questions about this, we're going to our first commercial break. If you have any questions about forgiveness or even about my guests' experiences in Northern Ireland during the time of the

Troubles and the Omaha bombing, send us an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And I could readily see a subject like this evoking questions from people who have very personal and private matters in their life involving forgiveness, involving a struggle in their hearts and minds whether or not they should extend forgiveness to a specific person or people who have done great harm to them.

So we understand that that may evoke a personal and private question, and we will honor your request to remain anonymous.

But if it's a general question about what the scriptures have to say and so on, please give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

Don't go away, we'll be right back after these messages. It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners from all over the world.

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I'm now back with Ken McFarland, author of Forgiveness Through the

Lens of Heaven, Dealing with Unresolved Conflict. We've already got a number of listeners, both those in your neck of the woods in Northern Ireland and the

Republic of Ireland, but also some here in the questions.

I'd like us to explain more to our listeners exactly where you're coming from because, as I was saying earlier, the view that you espouse, the one that I have come to espouse, is not the majority view.

It's a minority view, even in the Reformed faith, it seems. And can you, first of all, define what forgiveness is?

Because there are people, there are Christians, who wrongly think that forgiveness simply means that you're demonstrating love towards somebody, that you're not holding a grudge, that you're not being vengeful towards them, and et cetera, et cetera.

But forgiveness is a very unique concept within all of those things, but it's not the same as all of those things.

Yes. Well, forgiveness, first of all, it's certainly not a therapeutic exercise.

That's one thing I'm convinced of. Chris Bronze wrote in his book a definition which

I've used in relation to God's forgiveness, and bearing in mind that Ephesians 4,

Colossians 3, tell us that we are to forgive as God forgives. But Chris writes that a commitment by the one true

God to pardon graciously those who repent and believe so they can be reconciled to him, although this commitment does not alleviate all consequences.

Basically, what he's saying is it's an act. It's something we do. Now, there are two ways we can do it, and I would say that the

Christian believer is to be or to have and display a forgiving nature.

There's no doubt about that. We find that taught again several times in relation to our attitude with other believers.

We were to have that forgiving nature. However, I would argue very strongly that when we take into consideration just the plain words of Luke 17 .3,

if your brother sins against you, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.

Why would those words even be there if forgiveness was to be universal? But more importantly than that, there is that passage concerning church discipline from Matthew 18, which speaks about, again, they've got the principles there laid down in relation to forgiveness.

At the end of that process, we have a person who is not forgiven, and Jesus actually confirms that this man, rather than to be forgiven unconditionally, is to be treated as an unbeliever.

That was used to be given his privileges in relation to church membership would be removed. But again, the principle is there.

There was occasion. There are occasions when forgiveness cannot be granted, and just basically putting that out into the wider realm,

I would argue that while Christians, yes, as I said, are to have a forgiving nature, there may be

Christians in the world who will never ever have to address an issue that warrants forgiveness being withheld.

But again, speaking in the context of our conflict here, there were a great many

Christians who were wronged against, had loved ones murdered, and I would argue on those occasions, unless there is a repentance or a request forgiveness on the part of the wrongdoer, then forgiveness simply cannot be granted.

Yeah, I mean, doesn't forgiveness basically involve releasing someone from a debt?

In other words, if somebody is not repentant, by telling that person, or even just thinking it in your head privately,

I'm not going to insist that that person repent, make restitution.

I'm going to permit them to go about their merry way, as it were, continuing to perpetuate this sin, and even bring harm to the lives of others.

Yes. And you're not challenging them or demanding of them, of course, in a spirit of grace and love, with the open arms that you will forgive if they come in repentance and ask you for forgiveness.

We are not to just blanketly say, I forgive them and everybody else who sins against me.

That's true. Again, back to Luke 17 .3. I mean, if your brother sins against you, you rebuke him. Quite often today, people will just not rebuke the sinner.

They will overlook the sin. They will try and not make a scene, maybe, as it were, and they just brush things under the carpet.

That happens, I would say, quite often, even in a Christian or church environment. But again, you're right,

Christian, in relation to forgiveness, the two Greek words that are used to speak about forgiveness speak of that release, or after a debt has been paid, and in case we know, at the cross, the debt was paid for our forgiveness.

But again, there's also the bestowing of a favour freely, in other words, the overlooking an offence in love.

But again, the Scriptures speak about, people will often say, love covers a multitude of sins, as Peter writes in chapter 4, verse 8.

But even by virtue of that, that passage itself tells us that love does not cover all sin, that there are sin which love simply cannot cover.

And again, that brings us to the question, and I know, well, it opens up. I have found with some of the speaking engagements that I've been doing, yes, people will be quite happily to accept the view that there are times when we don't have to forgive, but there are challenges to go along with that, because where there is repentance, then, for those more serious offences, we have a

Christian duty to forgive unconditionally. Sorry, when repentance obviously has been forthcoming, we must forgive.

Jesus made that point very clear. Again, forgiving 70 times, 70 tells

Peter, and if someone sins against you seven times a day, seven times, and repents seven times, you must forgive him.

And the apostles struggled with this teaching. This was difficult for them. They tried to say that we haven't got enough faith to do this, and Jesus more or less told them, he recounted the story about the servant who had his duties to do and still had his hard work to do in the field and still had to do his duties at night as well, even though he was tired.

And what Jesus was saying, when there has been repentance, when those things have, when the grounds for forgiveness have been fulfilled, we must forgive.

It's not a question of faith, it's a question of obedience. And by the way, folks, before I forget,

I do wholeheartedly recommend Chris Brawn's book, Unpacking Forgiveness, and you can go to cvbbs .com,

cvbbs .com, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, and order that there,

Chris Brawn's, B -R -A -U -N -S, and it's a wonderful book, and you as well.

But if you could, why don't you go, before we go into the more of the biblical evidence supporting your view that forgiveness is only to be extended to the repentant, why don't you provide for us the most popular texts in the

Scripture that those who oppose your view, who believe that we are to forgive everyone, even if they never ask for forgiveness or repent or anything coming close to it, they could be a death row inmate laughing at you through the bars, who have no interest at all in repenting, and are not at all remorseful about murdering a one of yours.

But give us the texts supported by Christians that say that we are to forgive everybody, regardless of who they are and whether or not they repent.

Yeah, well, of course, the biggest one and the most popular one is taken from our Lord's statement on the cross, as recorded in Matthew chapter 6, 9, 15.

Forgive us, sorry, that's the wrong quotation. Father, forgive them.

Luke 23, 34. The Father, forgive them. Again, Jesus on the cross, supposedly to the crowd, forgave the crowd, and this is what everybody teaches in relation to that.

But again, I believe a correct reading of the passage would show that Jesus didn't forgive anybody on the cross, even though we have two cases in Scripture where he did forgive both the paralytic man and the sinful woman, he forgave in those circumstances, and we can look at them again if need be.

But on the cross, he effectively petitioned God to forgive those people. Now, how does

God forgive? God forgives by bringing the sinner to a position of repentance and faith, and there's an entire chapter dealing with that in the book in relation to Jesus' statement on the cross.

We find that after Jesus had petitioned God to forgive those who were against him, and the thief on the cross, of course, he had riled him earlier on.

One of the thieves was the first person to come to faith. We have the Roman centurion expressing faith, and again, we have on the day of Pentecost, again, we have all those people coming to faith.

It's interesting, actually, in relation to that passage dealing with Jesus' statement on the cross, it was

John MacArthur, even though maybe there might be some differences with his teaching, but he made the point that those who were there on the day of Pentecost went home beating their breasts, a sign of remorse.

They had come along to glorify over the death of Christ on the cross, but they were left feeling empty and returned home beating their breasts.

In other words, the Holy Spirit was already beginning to work in their hearts. They realized deep down that they had done something terribly, terribly wrong, and of course, then 50 days later on the day of Pentecost, the 3 ,000 come to faith, having been cut to the heart in relation to having crucified our

Lord and Savior. One of the things that I have told people who take the majority view, the opposing view to yours and mine, that we are to forgive everybody regardless of who they are and what they do, regardless of whether they repent or not,

I have asked them, does God forgive that way?

And the majority of time, the gut reaction, the knee -jerk reaction will quickly to be, of course, and then

I'll ask them, do you believe in hell? And if I'm talking to a conservative evangelical, they will likely say, of course,

I believe in hell. Do you believe it has inhabitants that it will be one day filled with countless millions of people?

Yes, I do. Then how on earth can you say that God forgives the way you are telling me to forgive?

Because obviously God does require repentance to forgive, does he not?

Yes, yes. I think another one of the passages, actually, again, was the one I didn't misquote earlier on, was that Matthew 6, 9, 15, the

Lord's Prayer. That's another one that is brought up regularly when we are told to forgive our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

And the point I make in relation to the Lord's Prayer is the apostles had asked Jesus how they should pray.

So this was a prayer for believers. In fact, only believers can refer to God as our

Father. So we're talking here about blood -bought Christians praying.

And again, when Christians pray, we know that he is without sin, or sorry, that if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves.

So we all sin, even Christians sin. We find the principle of God chastising his children in Hebrews as well.

But again, so that forgive us our trespasses is dealing with the sins that we commit on a daily basis. And what the

Lord's Prayer is teaching us is simply that, and it's back to that I said earlier on, that the Christian must have a forgiving nature.

And if we don't, if there's, I think there's nothing more unpalatable, shall we say, than a hard -hearted

Christian. And this is what our Lord is addressing in the Lord's Prayer. He's telling Christians, listen, if you haven't got a forgiving nature,

I am going to withhold a blessing for you. I'm not going to forgive your daily trespasses. I'm going to withhold blessing from you until you learn the lesson.

And there are several examples in scriptures with King David being one who suffered terribly as a result of his sin. But again, another passage, what

I believe is taken out of context to show that effectively God practices unconditional forgiveness.

But even at face value, the Lord's Prayer itself, there's a footnote to the

Lord's Prayer which says, you know, for if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. And if you're going to go down the route that we must forgive unconditionally, even that passage poses a problem because if we are to forgive as God forgives,

Ephesians or Colossians would tell us, then here we have God's forgiveness is actually conditional.

God's forgiveness for us, and if you take those words in the Lord's Prayer at face value or the footnote particularly at face value,

God's forgiveness is actually conditional. But I say that that circle can be, that's not a problem in relation to, when it's properly studied out again, the

Lord's Prayer is a prayer for believers and is not teaching us that we must forgive all and every single sin ever committed, either in our presence or against us.

Now, I'm assuming you would agree that it is a sin for Christians if someone comes to us where you could demonstrate, or you could detect,

I should say, genuine remorse, their so -called apology—I know

J. Adams always hated that word because I apologize is not the same thing as please forgive me, have mercy on me, etc .—but

if somebody is really in truth, maybe even pleading with you for forgiveness, not that you would require they beg on their knees or anything, but if you could really detect that they're being sincere, it's a sin if we say,

I'm sorry, no, you've done this too many times to me, I'm never going to forgive you.

That would be sin, would it not? Yes, where there has been repentance, and really, it's difficult.

John MacArthur writes in his book in relation to that, that genuine repentance always involves a confession of wrongdoing and a willingness to make things right.

Chris Broms also talks about repentance means to change behavior as a result of complete change of thinking and attitude.

If someone comes to you, I think if they've repented of the sin and they've admitted the wrongdoing, then

I see the avenue opening up for reconciliation, and I believe that in those circumstances it actually is a sin to refuse forgiveness, yes, because again, where there's a humble and contrite heart seeking reconciliation, then it is a sin to block that pathway.

Well, we have to go to our midway break. We'll be right back after these messages. I'm Dr.

Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

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Before I return to my guest today, and our discussion of forgiveness through the lens of heaven,

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and put I Need a Church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to my guest today,

Ken McFarland, and we are discussing forgiveness through the lens of heaven dealing with unresolved conflict.

That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Before I go to a listener in Cork in the

Republic of Ireland, I have just a couple of questions to further clarify what we were discussing before the break.

When we say that we insist on repentance from someone before we forgive them, that does not mean repentance in the sense of coming to saving faith in Christ.

We are to forgive even unbelievers that come to us asking for forgiveness, are we not?

Yes, Chris, we're not able to see into the heart. Only God can see into the heart.

However, again, we would have an obligation to tell the repentant person that while a sin has been committed against us, the sin more than likely and probably definitely will have also been a sin against God, and for it to receive true forgiveness and be reconciled to their

Creator, then they would also need to repent before God. But again, yes, I would be happy to accept repentance from a non -believer, again, on the pretense that it's genuine, yes.

Could be an Orthodox Jew in our family or one of our neighbors or a colleague at work or a

Muslim or a Hindu or an atheist, but if they come to us repenting for what they did to us, we are commanded by God, obligated by God, to forgive them.

Yes, I was told a very heartrending story some years ago with a friend

I knew who wasn't a Christian, and he had heard a story about a friend of his, and then passed the story on and later discovered that the story was not true.

And he went to his friend, and even his friend knew nothing about the story having been passed on. He went to his friend and apologized for passing on the story, and I thought that was apologizing and repentant, obviously, of passing on the story, and I thought that was a great example of someone who wasn't particularly—well, that's what

I get, I can't say into his heart, but doesn't practice faith to my knowledge, but yet did the right thing in that circumstance.

Okay, we have Mary in Cork, Ireland. Hi, Ken. Greetings from Cork. I'm just wondering, have you had some or any encounters with the families of those who have been bereaved, and were you able to share your faith with them eventually?

Yes, indeed. That involved, during the years of research, I interviewed many people,

I heard their stories, and again shared as best I could tentatively at this stage, because again,

I wanted to compile it into a book, and I have—in the book, there's a forward by one lady whose husband was murdered, and tells a very heart -rending story about how, after her husband was murdered, she came back to faith, but struggled in the faith environment because she was told that in order to alleviate the pain she was suffering, she must forgive the perpetrators, not even knowing who the perpetrators were, of course.

But yeah, I have met people, I have heard their stories, and I have—the book is all about trying to provide a pathway for them to achieve closure, and that would be, again, my testimony's in the book, or a partial part of it's in the book, and the book is all part of doing exactly that.

And Mary also asks, how old were you when you witnessed the

Armagh bombing? And she has one other question. Yeah, 38.

38, and she also finally asks, did they ever find the perpetrators and bring them to justice?

Yes and no. There was—nobody's ever been convicted in a court of law, however.

There was a civil case brought—actually, maybe, I don't know what it's like in America, but in a civil court here in Northern Ireland, there's a lesser level of proof needed, and there were certain—there were some men convicted in the civil court, but so the answer to the question is, again, it is yes and no.

Okay, well, thank you so much, Mary. Continue listening to Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio and spreading the word about the show in Cork, Ireland and beyond.

We have, this time, somebody from your neck of the woods, Axel in Armagh, Northern Ireland.

Do you know how close or far away Armagh is from Omagh? Yeah, I used to worship regularly in Armagh.

I used to travel several times a week to a little church there some years ago, so I know exactly how far it is.

It's about 45 miles. Okay, well, Alex says, are you aware the

Northern Ireland Troubles Legacy and Reconciliation Act 2023 establishes the

Independent Commission for Reconciliation and Information Recovery, ICRIR, whose principal objective is to promote reconciliation at all times?

However, there is no definition for reconciliation in the act, nor is there a process to achieve reconciliation.

In your opinion, how should the commission define reconciliation and how could reconciliation be achieved in the context of Northern Ireland?

That's interesting because I'm assuming our listener in Armagh, Northern Ireland, is referring to something that may involve both parties being unbelievers.

Yes. So it's a little bit more difficult because these people are not going to be using the inerrant holy scriptures as their blueprint for how to conduct their lives, but how do you respond to that?

And as you said, dealing with unbelievers therein lies the problem. Speaking from a biblical perspective again, reconciliation comes about when forgiveness has been granted and forgiveness is granted in two ways.

Either an offence is covered in love and the relationship is reconciled and the parties move on, or as I have argued throughout, in the case of those more serious offences, repentance is sought, forgiveness is granted and reconciliation occurs.

Yes, I'm aware of the act and it's come in, it's caused a lot of controversy. How could government have, the problem is reconciliation for me,

I suppose I'm looking at it as a Christian concept, how could they have defined it? I'm not actually sure.

What I would say in relation to is it possible to achieve it? Yes, I do believe it is because I think reconciliation, again

I've written in the book and I've referred to reconciliation as a state that you reach after forgiveness that is where the relationship is at least as good as it was before.

So we go back, I suppose looking at reconciliation in a political context,

I would go back to the partition of Ireland in the 1920s because then at that point we had agreement between the governments, the

Irish government and the British government, and it was effectively

Irish republicanism who chose to rebel against that then and have continued to rebel against it since.

And I would say for reconciliation to be achieved there would have to be a recognition that that violence, that going against an agreement that was reached all those years ago and that continued agitation was wrong.

Now it was perfectly entitled and people are perfectly entitled to have their political views and perfectly entitled to seek to unify

Ireland indeed, but again the doing it through violence was wrong and there would have to be recognition that it was wrong for there to be any chance of reconciliation.

Now some people might say that will never happen but there actually has been an interesting case just this week.

This week we had the 50th anniversary of what was called the Ulster workers council strike back in 1974 and what happened then was the

British government at the time decided to set up a power sharing executive, something not dissimilar to what we got in 1998, however unionist people at the time were opposed to it and effectively it was brought down through a strike or through protest.

As we move forward 50 years that event has been talked about recently and there has been there are people within the unionist community who are prepared who are beginning to accept that maybe maybe what happened in 1974 wasn't well if it hadn't have happened maybe it would have been better for all concerned we would have avoided so much trouble and conflict.

The point I'm making it is that one generation later maybe two generations later people from the unionist persuasion are saying well maybe 1974 didn't work out the way we thought it would have worked out and what

I would say in the flip side within republicanism maybe as the generations move forward there may be an acknowledgement within Irish republicanism that maybe the conflict the troubles throughout the 20th century maybe that wasn't the right course of action and if that if maybe a generation or so down the line there was that recognition that maybe people got it wrong there is a potential for reconciliation that's what

I would say in relation to maybe the potential for future reconciliation. Okay and our friend

Axel also says I would be interested to meet with Mr McFarlane to discuss further this matter in the future if he would be so kind as to get in touch with me well

I will forward your email to Ken McFarlane and hopefully you two will meet.

Oh no that would be excellent yes I'm always interested to speak to somebody you know a lot of people you have no idea

I suppose reaching out to people there's not many people really want to talk about matters theological particularly matters theological as it impinges on what we have come through over the past number of years and those that do want to talk about it tend to want to talk about it from their personal perspective but it's always great to speak to people who really want to explore because I do believe

I really do believe that forgiveness as I've talked about here through the lens of heaven or forgiveness as God intended if people really look at it in in all the aspects of it

I do believe it has the potential to to provide a bedrock for for reconciliation and then funny

I tell the story many years ago I was reading the story of Joseph where Joseph eventually his brothers come people be familiar with the story they came looking through and Joseph tested them over a while but that moment where Joseph was reconciled to his brothers was a tremendously moving moment and I remember reading that with fresh eyes and I really

I really thought about our country when I when I read that and I thought you know there is so much I think potential for a reconciliation along those lines but maybe

I'm just dreaming maybe I don't know but I want to hold out hope for that anyway okay well thank you so much

Axel and keep listening to Iron Sharpens Iron radio there in Armagh Northern Ireland and keep spreading the word about the program there and beyond we have another

Republic of Ireland listener and I will give his full name

I usually don't do that because I have interviewed this brother before and he runs a very important ministry his name is

Cecil Andrews and he is the founder of takeheed .info

and he is writing to us from Ballynahinch am

I butchering that pronunciation brother yes that's that's that's good enough and that is in the

Republic of Ireland no the Ballynahinch is in Northern Ireland oh it is oh I'm sorry yes forgive me for that I know that people are sensitive about those things and Cecil asks how has your book been received any positive or negative reactions well that's that's a difficult one to answer yes there's been positive it's not long out the problem is

I sort of live in the west a pretty quiet part of Northern Ireland I'm not mixing in the in the corridors of influence shall we say and even in the west where I come from the predominant view again would be that forgiveness should be granted unconditionally so again

I we talked about maybe this might be a minority view it's certainly minority view in the area I live now as I say

I work in the local bookshop local Christian bookshop as a volunteer and interesting

I'll just tell a story about that we talk about my testimony that that little bookshop that I work now that I know now working is on the site of the

Oma bombing and I suppose I sometimes look out at the street and I think little did I know all those years ago that I would end up witnessing to the

Lord on the very site that that terrible event happened but I do meet people the book sold quite well locally because again

I suppose maybe maybe people knew off me anyway and it sold quite well

I haven't had any negative feedback at all to be honest any feedback albeit not much has been positive but no

I haven't had any negative feedback at all maybe that's just people being polite but oh although having said that now

I did have one lady that's right I did have one lady in the shop who came in a very polite lady from a

Roman Catholic background and she had read the book and she found it difficult because I think as far as she was concerned her church would teach that forgiveness must be unconditional but we had an interesting talk and she left very interested to come back and have further discussions but that was the only and again

I wouldn't even call it negative it was just she was trying to get her head around this new concept that our new concept to her but no it's if it stimulates debate even

I never hear about the debate if it stimulates debate particularly of teachers I would like pastors to pick it up and look at it and teach their flock

I think the publisher is very keen maybe that we do either rewrite the book as a teaching tool possibly although well and that might happen but even as it is

I do believe because it covers every passage that deals with forgiveness is covered in the book

I haven't brushed over anything I haven't ignored passages that were uncomfortable or created a problem every passage in the bible that deals with forgiveness is covered in the book and dealt with in the book and I think

I would encourage people to maybe take it on board as a teaching tool possibly by the way

I've been corrected about my pronunciation of Cecil's first name first they get the country of his city wrong and I've been calling him

Cecil for years because I've known Cecil for well over a decade and he never corrected me to my knowledge uh so sorry about that Cecil I must confess

I must confess Chris I know Cecil very well um I would regard

Cecil not only as a brother in the Lord but a very close friend of the Lord Cecil has been an encouragement and I try to catch up with him as often as possible yeah that's a rare but not uh too uncommon name here in America and most

Americans that I know pronounce it Cecil but yeah I appreciate that that was the American pronunciation that's why

I didn't correct it well by the way folks all of my uh uh my listeners uh on the other side of the pond uh unfortunately even though we're giving copies of forgiveness through the lens of heaven today we cannot give them to overseas listeners or even those in Canada or Mexico because the cost of shipping is astronomical and our sponsors

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service who ship out winners their free books uh they would go out of business if they were shipping books every time a a person from out of the

United States uh were to win a book so if you have a friend in the

United States who we could ship the book to and they will ship it to you that that would be fine with us so let us know uh whether or not you know someone here in America who can send you the book uh let's see here uh we have uh

Jackson with an ex uh in Flanders Long Island New York and Jackson uh says or asks was the conflict during the troubles religious in any way even though it's commonly described as a conflict between Catholics and Protestants were either side who were the key players in the conflict who were violent on both sides really members of the body of Christ as far as their church affiliation and any kind of genuine demonstrations of religious devotion no

I would say definitely not funny enough one of the commentators um because whenever I was doing a study for this

I did a lot of research into the historical context because it's very easy you know just to watch things drift by and think you know what went on and sometimes it takes you to take a step back and read some other people's perspectives now and again but yeah the the one historical commentator made the point that at what we weren't arguing over doctrine over points of doctrine certainly not um no it now while they are the origins of the conflict

I would argue very strongly find go back to the the Protestant Reformation and the mistrust and the suspicion that grew out of that event today it's it's purely a matter of identity some people see themselves as Irish and believe there's a cause to be fought there and some people are determined to remain

British but as far as any religious connotation concerned there was nobody fighting over no there was

I would say definitely not they may have something many may have been of church goers um uh or perhaps even

Roman Catholic priests right well there were Roman Catholic priests involved in the conflict yes some did get involved and members of the

IRA again I suppose culturally I mean we had that division stemming from the

Reformation Catholics by and large were were were suspicious of Protestants and vice versa it was effectively a

I suppose a vicious circle um the rights and wrongs of it is a subject most definitely for another day but uh yeah it would certainly it was split down religious lines stemming back to the

Reformation and as I say the suspicions the animosities um created from that event now who are the

Ulster counterparts of the IRA the the enemies of the IRA primarily

I'm not talking about the British government I'm talking about yes those involved in actual physical confrontation oh you mean like sort of from the unions or from the what

I would call the union I think I refer to them as the union pro -union paramilitaries yes yeah well sadly of course we found within the conflict that there were people who um took up the used the arm of flesh

I think the scriptures would say uh with a view to seeking revenge and we would have had the

Ulster Volunteer Force and the Ulster Defence Regiment it's a bit murky back in the 1970s some of them maybe weren't prescribed initially but uh anyway through time they were prescribed in other words they were outlawed and it was illegal to be a member of those organizations but yes sadly uh there were people who decided to take the law into their own hands and sought um to take the

IRA on at their own game for want of a better phrase um the difference being

I suppose on the unionist side they they they didn't have any real political um clout uh they were constantly rejected in the the polls and the voting that went on even after the ceasefire they might have enjoyed a little bit of success some of the representatives might have enjoyed a little bit of success for a few years but it was predominantly an urban success and was very little uh and unfortunately

I say that to a certain extent that they are still or people using those names are still with us today um sadly again many are now involved in just petty criminality drug dealing that type of thing and uh there has been but again there's no or there's no real organization of of if any if any countrywide or even any any organized body as such it's just it's just gangs now using the name as a flag of convenience um to give themselves as a host credibility as they go about their their various nefarious enterprises and I'm assuming that uh they were always uh at best nominal

Protestants they weren't really theologically reformed and dedicated to the scriptures and and born again believers

I'm assuming no sir you're certainly you're spot on Chris yes that would be the case um now you haven't said that that there were

I'm aware of several who several who did get caught up it was very easy to get caught up in these organizations from either side of the divide if you lived in the community and uh

I suppose peer pressure or I suppose you would have looked up to these guys who were in these organizations young men did get involved and did they end up in prison and there has been several groups written by men who did come to faith in prison or did come to faith as a result of realized what they were doing was wrong and repented off their their deeds and some have written um books a few written books about that and some even now pastor communities or pastor churches but again no they were realized what they done was wrong and repented of it and uh and then of course they severed all connections and and admit fully that they that what they done was was not right and never was justifiable all righty uh well thank you uh for your question and please give me your full mailing address in Flanders Long Island New York so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service can ship you a free copy of Forgiveness Through the

Lens of Heaven Dealing with Unresolved Conflict by Ken McFarlane we have

Lottie which is my was my grandmother's name on my father's side uh

I don't know if this Lottie is uses that name as a short for Charlotte like my grandmother did uh

Lottie in Orange Park Florida and Lottie says I hear that some people especially

Roman Catholics blame the founder of the pre -presbyterian church of Ulster for the harm done to their families in Ireland Ian Paisley she's speaking of yeah yeah

Dr. Paisley yeah is that is there any where did they what I mean is it just because he was a loyalist is that the only connection to that yeah well certainly he was a vocal politician on the unionist side um the jury is out there are people who to this day will defend everything

Dr. Paisley done and think he was a great man taking his stand when he did again

I go back to that time in the 1970s we'd looked at that where loyalists took strong stands against some things um

Dr. Paisley would be the forefront of that it's a difficult question um hindsight's a wonderful thing uh say

Dr. Paisley what I would say he was extremely vocal in defense of unionism um however

I would also say that I believe he was a man of God in the sense that he brought many people to faith although sometimes there's a story of the um

I suppose I don't know the the story in the scriptures of the the unknown prophet who was sent to deliver a message and told to deliver the message and not stop anywhere on the way home and unfortunately stopped and broke the command and maybe some

Dr. Paisley to a certain extent preached a great gospel message but sometimes

I think that maybe he got too much caught up in politics and um nowadays that that seldom happens where you would certainly

I don't I can't think of any there's certainly no prominent uh ministers of the gospel involved in politics today um whether that was a good thing or a bad thing again the that's a debate that to be had and there are differing views um

I suppose my view would be that um I suppose personally speaking maybe the politics could have been left he was a talented speaker uh

I would choose one path or the other I would say and um I think he maybe should have maybe stayed with the preaching the gospel because he was a powerful preacher.

Oh yeah he was very powerful. That's a that's a that's a very that's a very hot topic.

In fact ironically even though uh until recently

Bob Jones University here in the United States in South Carolina they have had a history of vehement anti -Calvinism but they loved

Ian Paisley even though he was a thoroughgoing Calvinist and would have him frequently preach there.

Yes. In fact they would they would even allow students to be members of a free

Presbyterian congregation but that's the only Calvinist church they could go to. Yes there's no doubt about Dr.

Paisley I mean I never maybe it was dare I say a little before my time maybe although I was obviously in the police force during those years um

I never got to know the man but I do know people who did get to know him and he was certainly a charismatic figure but anybody who really knew him

I've yet to know that anyone got to know him really would say that he was a likable character and a gentleman and but again maybe maybe he played a bit to the gallery when it got on the public platform and again it's it's an easy temptation to fall into possibly.

Have you ever seen the movie The Journey? It came out in uh I don't know how many years ago maybe eight years ago maybe six um it's about uh during the

Northern Ireland peace talks when the Sinn Féin leader Martin McGuinness had uh a uh had meetings with Ian Paisley that eventually led

I believe to the peace treaty in 1998. Yeah no I can't say

I've seen that film Chris no I thought it was pretty good I don't know how accurate it was to real life but they showed in the movie uh the actor uh

Timothy Spall I believe who played Ian Paisley he's a really great actor he showed both sides of Ian Paisley both the stern growling angry

Ian Paisley but also a man who warmed up in his relationship with the

Sinn Féin leader eventually. Yeah I make the point in the book again speaking from a

Christian perspective that even though there are men who have done heinous things as Christians they are even those men who have done the most heinous things are still to be treated as objects of evangelism.

Right. And um you know and again as possible

Dr Paisley got to know uh Martin McGuinness and there may be some discussions along those lines.

I know former Prime Minister Tony Blair would say that Dr Paisley would have spoken to him about matters of faith and theology and salvation.

There's nothing to say that Dr Paisley wouldn't have spoken to Martin McGuinness as well and in within that environment it would be possible

I believe to have a friendly discussion and build up relationships but again

I didn't see the film and I can't I can't comment on further than that Chris I'm sorry. Quite all right and we are going to our final break.

Lottie in Florida please make sure we have your full mailing address so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CVBBS .com

can ship out to you a free copy of Forgiveness Through the Lens of Heaven. Don't go away folks we're going to be right back.

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We're now back with my guest today, Ken McFarlane. We've been discussing his book,

Forgiveness Through the Lens of Heaven, dealing with unresolved conflict.

If you could, Ken, before we run out of time, go into some more of the biblical support that you have for this view that we are only to extend forgiveness to those who come to us in repentance and asking for forgiveness.

Yes, well, as I say, those passages I mentioned at the start, the passages on church discipline,

Matthew 18, Luke 17 -3, certainly

I believe raise the issue that there are occasions when forgiveness cannot be granted short of repentance for those, as I always stress, those more serious offences.

I'm trying to think, and we've looked at the passages, also the objections raised from our

Lord's Statement of the Cross on the Lord's Prayer. In relation to the other passages, again, everything else that deals with it, there's passage

Matthew 5 -23, therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar on there, remember your brother has something against you, leave your gift before the altar and go and be reconciled to your brother.

Again, that passage, and a similar passage in Mark 11 -25, and whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him.

Those passages are often raised, again, speaking of unconditional forgiveness, but again, we go back to the passages

I mentioned, our Lord's Statement of the Cross, the Lord's Prayer. When we interpret them in the light of, again,

Matthew 18, where there are forgiveness to be withheld, we see that, for instance, bringing your gift to the altar, that's speaking about, in the

Christian environment, if you have an ongoing dispute with anyone, there's nothing worse in the faith environment where you have a brother or a sister or two sisters or two brothers who don't speak to each other.

I think it's one of the saddest things over probably something pretty petty, and that passage speaks to there.

If you've got an ongoing dispute, and in the faith environment, get it sorted, and again,

Mark 11 -25, whenever you stand praying, again, this is speaking about in the faith environment, and particularly that is in the context of a faith -centred prayer.

Again, prayer is, if you're the type of person who, as I talked about earlier on, a

Christian who has got a hard heart, who's got an unforgiving spirit, your prayer life is going to be tainted.

Most definitely, freedom will be removed. The spirit will not be with you in those situations.

So again, the passages like that, when they're interpreted in the context of the overall picture, they present us with a great biblical message in relation to forgiveness.

But looking at forgiveness in general, so we've made the point that, yeah, there are times when maybe we can't forgive because of the serious offense, and we've got an unrepentant offender, and then we looked at, you know, there are occasions then whenever repentance is forthcoming, we must forgive.

But it goes on, it's taking the whole thing on, and we then come to where there has been no repentance.

Leaving it with the Lord is another major challenge. And as I speak to groups, particularly victims groups in relation to this,

I can see that that sometimes can create a challenge because you're speaking to people, and I don't want to be too disparaging, but you're speaking to people whose faith is nominal, and you're telling them that really the way of release from all these feelings of animosity and bitterness is to leave it with the

Lord. And it's very difficult for people who have an nominal view of the Lord, whose faith is maybe half -hearted, for want of a better phrase, to leave it with the

Lord. Again, we find this principle, or the one that I'd often use is where Paul is talking about Alexander the coppersmith, where again there was a dispute between Paul and Alexander, and in 2

Timothy 4, 14, 15, Alexander the coppersmith did much harm. May the Lord repay him according to his works.

We're not told as to whether there was any sort of a template reconciliation between the two, but again Paul was advising or certainly stating to Timothy that he had left the matter in the hands of the

Lord. And that's a big challenge, leaving it in the hands of the Lord, because that brings the whole issue of faith, or the whole issue of forgiveness, back to really,

I don't know if to even use this phrase, but dealing with forgiveness sometimes can be, and many times can be, actually a test of faith.

Yes, and we are not to hold on to bitterness and hatred and let disputes that we've had, even with people who remain unrepentant, we're not to let that eat us alive and destroy our own lives.

Exactly, Chris, yes. Yeah, that's the point I would make. I mean, one of the great arguments from the side who promote unconditional forgiveness is that the only way to alleviate these negative feelings is to either inwardly forgive to improve your therapeutic well -being.

I would argue that it's leaving with the Lord, preparing to leave it with the Lord, and again through time think differently, you know, about the perpetrator.

Romans 12 is probably a passage which speaks more about this than anything else. Romans 12, 17, 21,

Again, the two principles in this passage and reading on is, again, the one is that we repay no one evil for evil, do not avenge yourselves, and again the second principle is have regard for the things in the sight of all men, live peaceably as much as within us lies with all men, and again, if your enemy is hungry, feed him, and that's speaking about, again, the

Christian love. I started the book quoting that passage from Matthew chapter 5, love your enemies, pray for those who despitefully use you, that's a big chapter.

Even when I wrote that at the start of the book, I didn't know how I was going to deal with that passage, but whenever you look at forgiveness in the round and you come through through Romans 12, you see that that's the real challenge at the end of it.

How do we get to that position where, you know, where we can express that agape love, that selfless love?

I think it was Keller who made the distinction. It wasn't, he's not talking here about a sort of a family love or an affectionate love, he's talking about a selfless love towards others, and again, that's the big challenge.

That's where forgiveness takes us to, it brings us through to that challenge, and I do that again at the end of the book.

We look at that passage and write about that content of that passage from Matthew chapter 5.

And also remember, folks, that the phrase,

I'm sorry, is not a magic spell that would make the one you've offended required to forgive you.

Just by saying, I'm sorry, like I've heard, and I've even heard it to me,

I said I was sorry, like that's supposed to automatically give some kind of evidence that you're repentant, and it's not.

It actually is just an added measure of salt in the wound.

But we are out of time, and I want to remind you that the book is titled Forgiveness Through the

Lens of Heaven by Ken McFarland, and you could get this at mauricemedia .com,

M -A -U -R -I -C -E -W -Y -L -I -E media .com,

and you can also get it at Amazon. I want to thank you so much, Ken, for being such a superb guest. I look forward to your return to my show.

I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater