Rutgers' Racist Professor, More Muhammed Hijab, and the Neo-Socinian Nonsense Again

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:33

Well greetings and welcome to the divine line we're back here in Phoenix, Arizona in our regular studio ready to go wasn't the longest trip, but When you when you push it way many hours past what you're comfortable driving to get home

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It seems like it was a long time Less than three weeks, but the big ones coming the big ones coming in February March we're probably talking solid five weeks

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Maybe a little longer To get everything in it's gonna be a big one. So please be praying toward that the five debates and Possibility of a nationwide program right at the beginning again on the subject of Roman Catholicism lots stuff going on there

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Someone sent me this morning first thing I got this morning was a Super spin article and that's the only that's the only way to describe it.

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It was horribly biased and unfair and Just really from the left -hand side trying to defend

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Francis against those a terrible Burke and the other guy down in Texas and they're just terrible horrible people and Yeah, so much going on there that looks like next month in January I'll probably be doing a number of sermons at Apologia Church.

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January is very very busy time for Jeff Durbin Of course these days every day is busy for Jeff Durbin, especially for his wife

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Candy As the the twin girls are home, by the way, I should let you know That that adoption has gone through and Piper and Nora are home and I think

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Jeff said one was six and a half pounds. That was five and a half pounds. That's big for Ten week preemie babies.

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They were really really early and had issues had problems But Because my son was 413 we brought him home so he was only seven weeks early

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Anyway, they're home, but that means Wow January is so busy for him because of end abortion now we have 18 states where legislation is going to be

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Being testified to To give equal protection

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We know obviously that you're up against not only the

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Culture of death, but you're up against the pro -life industry as well But it's a testimony to the magistrates.

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You have to keep pushing you have to keep moving forward so last year, I preached three out of four

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Sundays in January and I don't know how many I'll be preaching this year, but we will be looking at Roman Catholicism And seeking to make sure that our people are appropriately aware of what the issues are.

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It just seems like today Once again, we're going through one of these Little waves that you get, you know, there's a constant movement out of Roman Catholicism all around the world

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But there are waves and You you hear much more about people going into it than people coming out of it

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I've said as many times you just listen to the converts speaking and When someone leaves

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Roman Catholicism, they're talking about coming to the gospel and coming to Christ Coming to understand what the gospel is for the very first time what what it means to have peace with God What what righteousness is all these types of things?

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when people Go into Roman Catholicism what you hear about is the church the church the church the church the church the church the church which

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It's tough these days with Francis But they're still they're still doing it.

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They're still doing that kind of thing. So Yeah a lot coming up in in just the next literally number of weeks.

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I don't know how I'm gonna get prepared for all of it, but Because there's just so much stuff going on My thanks again to everyone that made the last trip possible

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You Know I was really surprised this morning. I took the last stuff out of the freezer in our non -working refrigerator

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I'll be taking it in for service tomorrow and I was really really surprised.

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I I Put a bag of ice in that freezer more than two days ago, and it was

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Hardly frozen hardly melted at all. So what you can do if you learn from me if your refrigerator dies,

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I Hope you have a little fridge out in the other part Because that this this unit has a little outdoor kitchen thing.

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It has one of those, you know Office size little cooler type thing.

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It's not not a really for Richard doesn't have a freezer in it and So I put everything in there that was you know, just gonna die

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I was got to throw out or whatever But I discovered that if you put enough ice not enough.

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I mean I didn't have enough but if you put ice in the freezer You can put stuff in there and it will it won't freeze it

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But it'll keep it about the temperature that a refrigerator would normally keep it at so, you know your freezer isn't the largest portion of stuff, but between the two

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I Got home didn't get food poisoning yet. Anyways We'll see about that but that's that's how it goes you got to find ways to adapt so Hopefully have it all working fine on the way out come

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February Because that's gonna be a huge trip and I do not have time to be troubleshooting stuff

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I'm gonna be concentrating on other things and need to be concentrating on other things during that period of time So pray toward that M so much happening

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Yeah in the world, I just I saw a video and I thought you know, well first of all

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Congratulations to Dusty Devers That's amazing that someone that Open about their position now, of course

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Pretty conservative area, but still given the murderous intention of the media these days

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That's that someone that open about their stance on life and things like that could be elected

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Amazing thing. It's good. It's exciting the

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Republic Sentinel is Reporting that Michael Cassidy a

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Christian a Christian and former military officer Tore down and beheaded the

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Satan altar in the Iowa Capitol. I don't know if you saw that Did you see the the pictures of it? Yeah, there's someone set up a idol satanic idol in the

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Iowa Capitol next to the manger scenes all based on freedom of religion, of course

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Which by the way, I just hope no I I was gonna say I hope error would know no

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That's Jordi wouldn't because vast majority are public schooled There is not a single one of The Founding Fathers including the non -christians

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That would have approved of a Satan altar in any

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Capitol anywhere Okay, just just so you know, they they weren't as stupid as we are today

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They they they they're like, no, we want God's blessing not God's curse. So yeah, we're not doing that But it was there and a guy named

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Michael Cassidy a Christian former military officer Tore it down beheaded it and chucked the head in a trash can and then turned himself into police at the

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Capitol and the Satanists will be pressing charges and it's like a fourth degree some little thing type thing, but there are pictures now all through Twitter of the decapitated idol and Yeah riches riches what?

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I'll go I'm not going to mention that Because the idol now haven't been decapitated looks like the president's

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So and that's about as functional That was that's quick Yeah, okay

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Yes, and and I did have some people on the trip say to be nice to rich so oh

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Yeah, as long as I'll go set it then then it's it's perfectly fine Okay.

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So one of the things that I ran into was a video of Rutgers professor

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Brittany Cooper now I With what is with what happened last week and I didn't comment on this

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But what's happened last week or was the week before? Well, all the fallout was last week

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With the presidents of MIT Harvard and Penn, wasn't it?

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Not able to Offer a full -throated condemnation of the calling for genocide of the

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Jewish people was was 1938 really all that long ago.

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I mean think about it. That is we're coming up on a hundred years, aren't we? And it just doesn't see people can remember

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Very very long ago, so, you know, maybe maybe that's it but there was this thing called

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World War two and these people called Nazis and Places called Auschwitz and Birkenau and Dachau and Ravensbrück Buchenwald all these places where unthinkable things took place, but Hey It's okay

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So, you know one of the threes resigned and then Harvard has demonstrated that Why would anyone want to go to Harvard?

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And in fact, why would anybody want to go to any of these institutions any longer? I mean I'm being absolutely serious because Isn't it real obvious that education isn't taking place there anymore.

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Why are people Donating millions and literally billions of dollars to these institutions

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We're all you know, some of them don't even play football Or if they they do they don't do it.

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Well That's about all they're worth these these days you you don't you don't have scholarship taking place any longer

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Isn't that clear? Isn't that obvious? I mean, why would you go to Harvard if I I'm anyway, we need to Come to understand

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What has happened to? What used to be called the

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Academy? What it means to become woke and we can sit there go woke means you're broke.

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Well it does It really means that it's all over and so This Brittany Cooper, I you know,

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I don't know how these people become professors But let's just listen to just a little bit of some recent comments that she made and Realize that she will be defended in making such comments at almost any

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Institution at all let alone Rutgers. So here's uh, here's some of the things Brittany Cooper had to say

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I think that white people are committed to being villains in the aggregate, right the real sort of issue here

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You know, I've heard people sort of say it is What I think that white people viscerally fear.

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It's not that white people don't know right what they have done. They know They fear that there is no other way to be human

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But the way in which they are human which is to so, you know Like you talk to white people and whenever you really want to have a reckoning about it

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They say stuff like you know It's just human nature if y 'all had all of this power you would have done the same thing, right?

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And it's like no, that's what white humans did white human beings He thought there's a world here and we own it prior to them

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Black and brown people have been sailing across oceans Interacting with each other for centuries without total subjugation domination and colonialism

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I have seen what a what a show this iteration of Treatment of other human beings means and that my hope is that we would do it differently

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You know in the moments when we have some power We will not do it perfectly But I do think that all of us can sort of agree that our politics that says like there are superior and inferior human beings

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Just in the way to go and that's the thing that white people don't trust us to do because they are so corrupt

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You know, they're thinking is so morally and spiritually bankrupt about power that they can't let you know

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They fear viscerally Existentially letting go of power because they cannot imagine that there's another way to be it is either that you dominate or you are dominated now,

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I just I'll just stop there because it just it goes on and on and on, but You know,

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I I Think back on my own childhood and I I think about The first house.

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I really remember was a farmhouse in outside of Minneapolis, Minnesota and My dad had been passing by it and It was all broken down the windows are broken and He had found out who owned it and he went to him and said

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I'll fix this up. If you let me and my family live in it and the guy is like There's bats.

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There's a huge number of bats up in the attic and there were and It says

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I I just don't I don't think you could well my dad said I think I can and so My dad fixed the place up and you know,

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I can I can remember so much about that home I remember watching

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Walter Cronkite talking about the Vietnam War some of my very first memories the Ho Chi Minh Trail and all that kind of stuff

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We were poor as church mice. I We were in the bottom the bottom bracket as far as income and everything else and So when

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I hear these people talking about my privilege the power and everything else that I've had and I just want to go

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What are you smoking in that school of yours, I mean seriously

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I Just can't even conceive of it To just talk about just white folks as a whole

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We know there's all sorts of different kinds of white folks Just like I know there's all different kinds of black folks and brown folks and yellow folks and every other kind of folks

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To to be this kind of shallow racist Type of person and to get paid to do it to get your position because that's how you are

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Is absolutely positively amazing it is so sad to see this kind of stuff

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Happen you know, we thought this was this stuff was going away, but no no, you have to use it to divide people and There's there's

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Brittany Cooper. Just you can just talk about white folks white people because they're just so morally bankrupt and it's so spiritually bankrupt and it's like I I Think back on 2016 when

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I first started this saw this stuff coming and It has just it's become a steamroller since then this is

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CRT on steroids This is this is what it does. It destroys it.

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It divides it it it it is destructive of any kind of Society that wants to survive and I I don't know that this society wants to survive.

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That's the point. That's that's the problem Want to spend a few minutes and we're gonna have again get back to another topic toward the end

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Wow, I already spent eight how did I get through 18 minutes? That's astonishing. Um, I Have not forgotten and we're just not making fast progress, but I apologize.

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I keep it on my computer So we will be able to get to it but I Do want to continue?

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Responding to Muhammad hijab now what's interesting since last time I did this I sent an email to Muhammad hijab

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The speaker that you're we've been playing Asking when he was becoming the

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United States and Seeing if in there be any way to try to make my travel schedule and his travel schedule hook up, you know, that's much more difficult for me these days because I'm not flying but I'm still able to get around a little bit.

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I never heard back from him and then only a few weeks ago during the height of the

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Hamas Israel Stuff Which seems to be calming down a little bit at the moment

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Here I see a video of him leading protesters in the streets of London and they're they're calling for Jewish blood and I'm like Well, that would explain why

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I didn't hear back I guess But my what a difference only a few years can make because this is 2018

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So, you know five years ago Five years in one month actually now looking at it

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Little bit surprising a little bit surprising, but the arguments are still the same So let's let's do about 20 minutes here and then we'll do 20 minutes on another topic to sort of wrap things up On on this one that guys when you look at the

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Old Testament Do we see this because when we look at the Old Testament we find the Shema Chapter 6 verse 4

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Shema Israel Adonai Elohim Adonai Echad Hero Israel My Lord our

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Lord is one Lord here When you look at the first commandment chapter 20 verse 3 of Exodus you find there's no

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God beside me I'm your Lord and there's no God beside me You find in Isaiah chapter 43 verse 11 once again the discussion of I'm your

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God and besides me. There is no Savior Now it's interesting and and I would

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I would point this out to Muhammad if we were to have a conversation on these things

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I Love when people go to Isaiah 43 because I I'm sitting there going go ahead go to verse 10 go to verse 10 because Isaiah 43 10 obviously for all of you who deal with Mormonism one of the key texts that we use

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The last part of the verse before me there was no God formed there should be none after me Christians defend the doctrine of monotheism and We do so from well most of us anyways who want to make a biblical case

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Make our arguments from Scripture and We make our arguments against not only the polytheistic systems, but against for example those within our own community that will muddy the waters for the sake of Tradition or personal advancement or whatever else it might be.

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I'll let you figure out who that might be we defend monotheism and There are numerous texts, but with which you could do that, but Isaiah 43 10 is an excellent one before me

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There's our God formed there should be none after me, but what's fascinating of course is The beginning of that verse you are my witnesses says

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Yahweh and my servant whom I have chosen She may know and understand believe that I am he

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On a who which in the Greek Sept on a who in the Hebrew which comes across as a go

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I me in the Greek Septuagint a text that Jesus quotes of himself and Applies to himself on the night of his betrayal in John 13 19 and So it's interesting when you know someone like Muhammad a job will quote that text not realizing that if he were looking at the entirety of the

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Christian scriptures That text including verse 11 would be referring to the deity of Christ but he doesn't realize that and Neither did his prophet.

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That's the problem the writer to the writer of the Quran Never read

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Isaiah Did not know it was contained in Isaiah and in fact thought that all sorts of other things

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They're not in the canon of scripture were in the canon of scripture and included those things in the Quran So there's a major problem, but Muhammad a job is talking about Nicene Trinitarianism and he's trying to contrast that with what's found in the

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Old Testament, but if you don't understand the relationship between old and New Testament you're going to Stumble into basic errors and miss what the actual testimony of the scriptures are now someone might argue about the word

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Elohim and this is the Weakness of the argument. It's a weak linguistic argument.

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What Elohim is a majestic plural. They would argue look

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There are 9 ,000 pronouns in the Bible which relates to God's name

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Let's take for example Genesis chapter 1 verse 1 bear a sheet bear a sheet

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Baha Elohim the word Baha means He created

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Whenever you find a pronoun in the Old Testament Referring to Elohim You will always find it in Third person male

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Singular One more time third person male singular. You don't find a plural version of that You don't find a pronoun which is pluralized.

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You know, it's funny when we deal with Mormonism We always point out to them since they are true polytheists

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That you know, they will talk about how Elohim has a plural Ending and yet It has been a regular statement of ours for decades but when it's

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When it's used of the one true God now when it's used of false gods, then it's gonna be used to the plural a plural verb

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And with plural pronouns But when it's in reference to Yahweh Then it is in the singular and singular pronouns will be used.

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There isn't a question about that and Trinitarians don't believe in multiple gods and Therefore you wouldn't expect to use a plural pronoun in that place

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So that doesn't it's not not a not a real good Not a real good argument there So now the question will be is this a

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Jew who is acquainted with the Torah with the Old Testament Why would one ask him to realign his belief his theological doctrines into believing in a triune

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God? When in fact he's been instructed quite explicitly in fact in the

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Old Testament not to break the Commandments Well, of course

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We're not asking them to break the Commandments they need to understand for example in the prophecy and I spoke on this last

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Sunday in Kansas the prophecy in Isaiah 9 6 of The coming coming

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Messiah, which I've actually heard some Jehovah's Witnesses Jehovah's Witnesses, I've actually Right.

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Let's get them all confused here. I've actually heard some Muslims Apply Isaiah 9 6 to Muhammad They just skipped the

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El Gabor a mighty God part when they did. So we covered that. Oh wow Two thousand eight

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I bet around 2008 2009 that that time frame I remember that but in Isaiah 9 when

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This coming one the Prince of Peace is described as El Gabor mighty God Same phrase that's used of Yahweh and Isaiah 10 21 only a matter of sentences later

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We're not talking about two different Yahweh's we're not talking about multiple gods we're talking about one

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God and then in the incarnation you have the revelation a much deeper and personal revelation of that one

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God in the ministry of Jesus and in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit again the plate the primary place where the doctrine the

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Trinity is revealed you see It gets a little bit more interesting. Even when you look at the

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New Testament now, we know the New Testament Has different authors there's 27 books of the

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New Testament. You've got Paul Who's written from 7 to 13 books and there's dispute as to exactly how much is written

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John? Written many books who is John? We don't know who John is by the way, we don't know who John is but Yes, Paul had a kind of exaltation

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Christology. There's no doubt He did believe that Jesus was divine and a good example of that is the second

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Philippians the hymn But He believed in a kind of subordination ism.

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And how do we know that because if you look at line 9 to 11 It's quite explicit that God gives him the name so he didn't have it before Jesus did not have the name before and he makes it above all names

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Okay, so it's a little confusing there but he's talking about the Carmen Christi Philippians chapter 2 and What he's not seeing

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Is that the Sun has voluntarily Made himself of no reputation and He has done so by Taking on a human perfect nature so it's it's

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It's Humiliation by addition rather than subtraction. Okay, and so he has

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Acted in tapinas a frune Humility of mind He has done the

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Father's will and Upon his resurrection He is exalted and given the name which is above every name

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But that's in light of his finished work. So To argue well, he didn't have that before Well, how could you have it before you do the work that is then associated with it?

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That doesn't make any sense And then what he misses is that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is

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Lord the glory of God the Father Well, so you have Jesus Christ is Lord Yahweh to the glory of God the

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Father and The quotations from Isaiah where Yahweh says every knee will bow every tongue will confess to me so it's being applied to Jesus And That glorification of Jesus in light of his finished work is

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Not of a separate deity to the denigration of the Father but says to the glory of God the

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Father So the only way that can work is if you have one

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God We're monotheists and That one God Has been manifest in Such a way that we recognize the

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Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. It was the Son that was incarnate It was not the Father. It was not the Spirit and When we say

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Jesus is Lord, that means a whole lot more than I think our Muslim friends have the capacity of understanding

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In light of the fact that the Quran and its author does not understand

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The message of Philippians 2 and in fact, I would say that Muhammad Hijab knows much more

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About the Christian doctrine of the Trinity than the author of the Quran did. What does that mean?

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So he believes in a kind of subordinationism. Now, what is subordinationism? It's a hierarchy within the Trinity. Remember we said and I see in Trinity is three co -equal co -eternal persons of the

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Godhead Paul didn't believe this. He believes in a hierarchy John believed in an incarnation

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Christology. Well now, you know, he just throws that out there But he hasn't proven his point and really hasn't even attempted to prove his point he's asserting some type of contradiction between the recognition of the

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Differing roles the divine persons play in the economy of salvation with the introduction of some kind of subordinationism

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Within the Godhead itself, which he has to somehow prove that taking different roles

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Doing different things. Okay, that's fully understandable. That's within God's freedom

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But to then may mean say that well, and that means this kind of subordination which is

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Interesting there are conversations being had today within Orthodox evangelical circles

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On this very topic and It does not seem to me that the most efficient way of Combating any form of subordination ism is by introducing

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Philosophical complexities that almost no one in the church will ever understand and I would just put it this way

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If you do think that certain philosophical philosophically complex doctrines and statements of doctrine are the way to protect against subordination ism

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Just be honest. How would you present that in this context? against a

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Muslim It's one thing to say. Well, we we need to do this within Christian theology and you know within this realms like that.

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Okay, and if you want to take this outside of that realm and Present this to people like this relatively young man

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How are you gonna do that? How are you gonna do that while? recognizing at the same time that Part of the debate is ultimate sources of authority

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So what is your ultimate source of authority? And are you being consistent if you say my ultimate source of authority is actually not

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Sufficient to define this subject. I need to bring this other stuff in from outside They might catch you on that.

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They might go you're not being consistent and Possibly In the beginning was the word and the word was with God.

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Everyone knows the prologue John chapter 1. Yeah Reminded me there just for a second.

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He was he says everybody knows remind me of when Biden couldn't do that one

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The thing the thing that everybody knows the thing Let's hear it the prologue.

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Okay. You got the thing But the question is this who is John his gospel was found some 95 ad this is the time it was found 95 ad

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Found You mean that there are people who would date the writing of the gospel of 95 ad it's not a matter of No one has found a gospel of John from 95 ad.

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I mean, okay one of The papyrologists in the 1930s that examined

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P52 Placed it in the 90s, but I don't think that's what he's talking about I'm not sure what he means, but he's not using accurate language was saying found

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I Think he's saying that the gospel of John is the last to be written which is highly probable

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But we don't know when it was written. There are some people that believe is written before 70 ad It's very common to have 95 to 98 as well

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But that's all speculation. There's there's no There's no date Attached to it

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Nor is there need to be that's some 65 years after Jesus's disappearance the irony of Jesus's disappearance

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Which makes me makes me think that for a while. They're all these Signs up on telephone poles in Jerusalem, you know missing

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Picture. Yeah. No, he has to say it that way because they don't believe in the resurrection

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Sir sir 4157 keeps them from being able to stand with the majority of his of history in Recognizing the resurrection of Christ.

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Oh the Ascension's right out. Yeah. Well, actually We need to change that no the

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Ascension's right in because if you read sir for 157 158

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There is sort of an Ascension there, but before the crucifixion because because in in Muslim thinking

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God Allah would never allow one of his blessed prophets to die in an ignominious

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Fashion and so he took him up to himself So there is there is an

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Ascension it just skips the death burial resurrection first I'm sorry

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Stolen I'm not sure that would be the term that they would use, you know, but It well is disappearance that's what he just said.

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Yep. There you go. That's that's why he said what he said. Oh is

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That you'll find in the Gospel of John For example passages like John 17 3

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Where it explicitly mentions that the father is the only true God yeah, you know we've been over it a million times before but If you're a monotheist, that's all you can say.

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What can you expect him to say? You're one of many gods. You're not God But what are you gonna do if you're gonna be honest with the text

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And I can and I can very honestly say, you know when you when you read

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What every Christian needs to know about the Quran when I deal with Quranic texts.

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I really do attempt to Understand them within the context which are written now

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The Quran is hard to do that with because very often there is no context Not even the

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Muslims can figure out what the context is So that can be problematic but there is a context

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John chapter 17 and If you're gonna quote John 17 3 and then not have an answer for John 17 5

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You got a problem Because in John 17 5 Jesus glorify me father the glory which

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I have with you Before the world was in your presence Jesus is speaking about Having existed as a divine person in the presence of the

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Father in eternity past and having been glorious That's after John 12 where he has quoted from John 6 and apply it to Jesus and That I must say

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Isaiah 6 and apply it to Jesus. And of course, that's the temple vision and seeing the glory of Yahweh And and things like that but if you're not gonna if you're if you're not going to Be prepared

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To deal with 17 5 don't just quote 17 3 as if it has some kind of meaning in and of itself

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That's manhandling the scriptures it's it's not showing respect for those scriptures And it generally means you don't have much of a strong argument in In where you're going at all explicitly mentions this and this was such a thorn in the side of the church fathers that Augustine a major church father

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Who died for 30 AD and he wrote who wrote an exegesis on John?

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You know what? He said he rearranged the words of John chapter 17 verse 3

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He changed the word order so as to make Jesus and the

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Father the true gods. This is how severe it was well I'd like a reference

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But knowing how Augustine handled things I would assume that he is looking at more of the context of 17 and Including John's testimony to Jesus as deity

40:49

Along with that. That's my assumption of what's what's going on But it's not some kind of quote -unquote thorn in the side

40:59

In light of the fact there's so much just in John chapter 7 just in that one chapter that testifies the deity of Christ that Muhammad's not dealing with and and I'm not sure that he's necessarily even fully aware of the existence of that that material so We will continue with that in in future episodes as well.

41:24

I I know we've been doing it rather slowly but It gives us an opportunity to hear

41:31

Unitarian in this case Islamic Unitarian arguments and To be prepared to deal with them.

41:39

I believe it's best to hear Those arguments from the sources themselves rather than I'm just saying well

41:48

It's common for such and such to say this or such such that it's good to hear how it's expressed by others

41:54

So that when you hear it you will be better prepared to give an answer because that's what we're called to be able to do

42:03

So speaking along those lines this morning. I was directed to a webcast

42:14

That was fairly recently recorded and It's a webcast in in the

42:22

UK And one of the they're all it's

42:27

Reformed Baptist and one of the Reformed Baptists Sounds so much like Justin Briarley That I'm surprised

42:36

Justin hasn't sued to have his voice changed or something because It it really is amazing how much they sound alike it it's it's amazing

42:52

But this is the broken wharf coffee house sessions, sorry don't know anything about the guys

43:02

Again it's new it's new to me and The conversation is with Steve Meister and Robert Briggs both from Emanuel up in Sacramento and The discussion is on the modern

43:20

Reformed Baptist scene and I wouldn't have commented on it except that once again we have

43:34

In the comments of pastor Briggs a

43:43

Coalescence of a condemnation of Biblicism once again the boogie word of the confessionalists today

43:57

Can't can't be a you know can't be a biblicist Together with a

44:07

Slanderous use of the term neo -sassanian Now you can get away with doing that because the vast majority of people today don't know anything about Sassanianism the various forms that it took they've not read its confession of faith

44:22

It was a major challenge in Post -reformation history

44:30

Once it arose it it Spread rapidly

44:37

To be a Sassanian is to reject the Trinity it is to reject the deity of Christ His pre -existence and The Sassanians believe they had a perfect form of rational philosophy that if you were to rationally interpret the pages of Scripture they didn't have they didn't have a

45:05

Perfectly orthodox Bibliology either, but if you were to have this rational understanding of the scriptures then you would come to see that Jesus truly wasn't

45:18

God and and and things like this and in general the

45:28

Really irresponsible way in which the term is being used today As in this context is to just simply smear

45:40

The people that are actually closest to you in the theological realm It's fascinating because in this conversation there was discussion about recovering a reformed

45:51

Catholicity and being able to get along with Presbyterians and others and yet this particular attitude results in a

46:04

Cancellation of the people who are the absolute closest to you in their theology

46:12

And once again, this raises all the issues that we've talked about for coming up on two years now because it was

46:21

December of 21 when all this stuff started happening

46:29

That when you when you when you when you think about what's being said you have

46:40

The issues of where we derive our ultimate authority from and we're hearing about well, we're recovering

46:50

Orthodox as if everyone has been unorthodox forever and all these people who are you know, if If you listen to this, you're gonna wonder if anyone had an

47:00

IQ above 50 in the 1990s It's really really well. We didn't know what we were talking about.

47:06

I didn't understand the Trinity or nothing and when you really Find out what's being talked about.

47:12

It's a It's a slight Emphasis issue that does open up a bunch of discussion of and how do you decide this and it really does come down to The supremacy of Scripture sufficiency of Scripture things like that this redefinition of biblicism into some time

47:31

Well, there's these people think you should only use the words of the Bible. And in fact, I was thinking

47:36

I brought this in today This is the most recent

47:42

Journal of Grace Bible Theological Seminary pro pastor and it's on the sufficiency of Scripture.

47:48

I Have an article here on the sufficiency of Scripture in apologetics. There's all sorts of other topics addressed But here is an entire publication where biblicists used all sorts of Non -biblical language to talk about the sufficiency of Scripture So the idea that a biblicist is someone says you should only use the words of the

48:08

Bible use the words of Scripture is just absurd a Biblicist is a person who believes that the ultimate source of divine truth for the church

48:21

Will be found in what God has revealed to the church and given to the church in Scripture which means that the only value of creeds and confessions comes from their

48:37

Fidelity to the revelation of Scripture even if it uses other words the issue is

48:45

Would the Apostles? have recognized That you are appropriately summarizing their teaching by using this language by using these things and the issue is

49:02

If your confession Necessary to form the framework for your exegesis

49:11

Then where did your confession? Get its authority from in the first place you see because if you say well

49:21

Yeah, you have to have this system in place To be able to handle

49:26

Scripture. Okay, where the system come from? Well, it's our confession. Okay, where the confession come from?

49:32

Well, it's the church expressing its beliefs, okay, where those beliefs come from, you know what this is eventually going to get to You're you're either have to say well it comes from Scripture, which is what we say the norm that norms every other norm

49:49

Or you're gonna go where all sorts of other groups say and you have Scripture plus Scripture plus Plus tradition plus this plus that and Biblicism, you know,

50:06

I've defined reformed biblicism on the basis of Calvin's response to Sataletto I've had no one refute that by the way, they just don't even want to don't want to go there

50:17

But We recognize church history. We learn from those in church history

50:25

But we learn just as much what not to do as we learn what to do Okay, we learn from Augustine not to be a neoplatonist

50:37

We learn from origin not to do almost anything And But we do learn and we do appreciate the positives

50:48

You know, I can I can you know, sing the praises of Athanasius obviously

50:56

But I also if I'm going to be honest as a historian with Athanasius I have to recognize the incredible impact that the desert fathers had upon him

51:12

And the whole concept of monasticism, which is an unbiblical system This is a conversation amongst reformed

51:21

Baptists and all reformed Baptists are biblicalist whether you if you want to try to run and hide

51:26

From that I can't stop you from doing that But the fact matter is when it comes to the quote -unquote great tradition, you are a biblicist your doctrine of baptism is not

51:39

The great tradition doctrine of baptism your doctrine of the church is not the great tradition doctrine of the church

51:46

Your doctrine of the sacraments is not the great tradition doctrine of sacraments in each one of those instances

51:56

Our fathers in the United Kingdom because that's where reformed Baptist came from demanded the right to believe what the scriptures said even at the cost of their freedom and their lives and Now we're pretending they didn't do that.

52:17

Don't get it. Don't get it all but let's listen to a few minutes this because I think it's

52:24

It's important. Let's Dive in with it. Um, and so yeah The one you've just mentioned is a good one and we're encouraged then we have definitely seen a really wonderful recovery towards unorthodox

52:38

Trinitarianism, let's just call it give us a few of those wins that it would be useful because we the end

52:43

You know, it almost sounds like up until a few years ago. We were all Trinitarian heretics

52:51

We were not These guys are literally they're literally the point of saying if you don't have

52:58

You don't cross the T and dot the I and have a particular Emphasis in inseparable operations or a particular understanding of simplicity that goes right along with Thomas Aquinas then you're a heretic when it comes to the

53:14

Trinity and I'm and I'm just like I Don't even I don't even know how you get that but once again, let me just point something out as The Reformed Baptist out here actually it was traveling the world and you all support us and doing it debating

53:32

Muslims all over the place and Unitarians and Mormons and all the rest of them.

53:38

Are you now saying? Oh, yeah, it was all wrong If you think that this new emphasis you have

53:48

Somehow changes all that then why aren't you out there doing it? I'd like to see how this works

53:55

Because I've never seen it used in debate not once Don't know how it would be but I'd like to see how it works.

54:03

It's in it oddly amplifies certain things So we only become aware and and and to us

54:10

America Depending on your your particular favorite theological tribe can look like a small village

54:15

That's generating some ideas. So so take us down to the to the ground level and tell us about some of those wins

54:23

For encouragement and also Yeah, I think I think every I think every group that has their confession has their diversity of you know

54:32

Those who are truly confessional and those who are pretending to be confessional and those who are aware

54:37

They're not really confessional. But for whatever reason think it's just important to pretend they're confessional and then so now we have the accusation if you don't agree with me

54:48

Then you're pretending to be confessional because we get to define it now now it's something where you've got

54:54

This is the Orthodox confessional interpretation and then everything else is just pretense

55:01

I Don't remember that maybe I I suppose because there were divisions amongst

55:07

Reformed Baptists back Before I even became Reformed Baptist Maybe that was thrown around back then, but I I never heard it

55:18

This seems to be a new thing that the pretended People that's that's really helpful in maintaining unity as those who are just you know, they're not confessional at all and It becomes quite obvious.

55:30

I think it depends I mean, I think within the Reformed Baptist world, which we can talk to mostly because that's the one that we are in There are probably two or three different groupings developing

55:40

There has always been the desire for greater unity and peace, but I think the recent decade

55:46

With the recovery and retrieval That has taken place. Now. You need to understand this recent decade that's going back to to 2013 and Maybe a little bit before that that was the impassibility stuff where ARBCA let 25 30 percent of their churches just just go

56:06

And and that's what then led to the further quote -unquote resourcement that has led to the current situation we're facing now as Magnified the difference between what

56:17

I would call a Biblicist approach. I would out I would go as far as calling it a neo -sassanian ism

56:25

That would create all sorts of problems, but I yes Robert it does because it's grossly unfair untrue historically naive and Shame on you absolute shame on you you may want to Associate Rank heresy with biblicism for whatever your reasons would be.

56:52

I'll leave that to you and to your Lord But you know better than to do this and There are no neo -sassanians amongst

57:03

Reformed Baptists there's aren't To use that kind The only the only way

57:14

That I could reciprocate would be to call you a neo -papist that that that was that would be how to blow this whole thing up It would be just as absurd just as slanderous just as wrong

57:30

But I don't do that. So why are you doing it? Why are you doing I don't

57:35

I do not understand it and You're gonna say here later on that. Well, you know, we may need to start naming names

57:42

Okay, if you're gonna call people sassanians, you should have been doing that all along that's the only way to have integrity and Anyone who wants to throw that me

57:54

I will shred the accusation historically and logically Publicly because it's foolishness.

58:05

I won't and I'll I'll name names like I am right now But I'll do so for the reason of having peace amongst the brethren because this is not how you create peace

58:16

You do not Not name names and then throw out accusations of rank heresy and not name the names

58:25

That's not how you bring peace It's how you bring division because by not saying who you're talking about then anybody can apply it to anybody

58:32

They want to apply it to it's it's like spreading gasoline around What does that accomplish?

58:39

accomplishes nothing well other than Creation of division by slander and gossip and stuff like that, which we

58:47

Shouldn't be doing shouldn't be doing I think it is I think it will yet prove to be that if we wait another decade

58:55

And those of us who have come to realize that we had some things wrong or we've had some things that were unclear and we

59:00

Had some things we just didn't know and we need to sort that and address that and become more robustly clear

59:07

On our confessional position our historical orthodoxy. I think you're going to see

59:13

Johnny for sure a growing Division there unless there's a real turning of heart

59:21

For some of those that are digging their heels in right now It would appear to me if you want to claim a confessionalism

59:27

But who I would argue are lacking an integrity and they know they don't they don't really

59:34

Affirm certain truths in the confession It's maybe not politically expedient to say it publicly yet They might even try to pretend and pivot to make it look like they do believe it but the reality is time time

59:47

I think will show that There are those of us who really are really committed to full -blown retrieval of orthodoxy

59:55

And those who have not really embracing it and those who are pretending and there's just a diverse group of Okay, you know people involved just picking up now,

01:00:03

I mean this is these are not the words of someone who is attempting to maintain unity or Attempting to bring two sides together and focus upon what the real issues are

01:00:17

This this language were the confessional ones were the orthodox ones They're the neo -sassanians this division is going to keep going this sounds like someone who wants it and thinks that that's necessary But it's going to go that way.

01:00:29

So let me just comment. I think the division will continue but I believe what's going to happen to be honest with you is that the people that are intent upon demanding a

01:00:47

Hyper narrow brittle interpretation of minor points

01:00:55

That 99 % of the people in the pew have no interest in and never impacts their life are going to discover that they're going to be talking to themselves in small little circles someplace and everybody else has moved on and They've moved on with those who do what?

01:01:14

Who teach them about God? from God's Word Do not subjugate that word to an external confession

01:01:27

Confessions are wonderful. They tell the world what we believe but they are subordinate to the scriptures and The people in the pew know who's standing up there opening the

01:01:41

Word of God and letting the Word of God teach and And those who are opening something else and then using scripture passages to try to provide foundation or basis the things that they're saying

01:01:55

I Believe that the majority of the people in the pews

01:02:02

When they hear about this and they sit back and they listen they're going

01:02:07

I Don't necessarily know what all these issues are, but it seems

01:02:14

One side is saying we stand on scripture And they're not saying you forget about the past.

01:02:22

They're not saying anything like that at all, but they're saying what they've always said so for example the authority of the

01:02:30

Council of Nicaea is based upon Nicaea's fidelity to scripture

01:02:37

That's where it comes from because one is a higher source of authority than the other On that you're calling it a neo -sassanianism, and I know you're not you're not attaching a label to probably what is like a clear -cut movement or anything like that, but in terms of trying to dissect that and I can agree the way a lot of people seem to be going in the certain way that they practice

01:03:05

Their confessionalism. What would you say were the key features of that? Would you say it's neo -sassanian and the basically the raw biblicism in the lack of Desire to have any conformity with the history of the church.

01:03:20

What would be one or two of those key features? What conformity with the church are we referring to?

01:03:29

The the particular Baptists Did not conform. They were called what again?

01:03:37

What was another term used? Non -conformist and They did not conform on what issues?

01:03:45

Ecclesiology, sacramentology, the ordinances of the church and Especially baptism, meaning, subjects, objects, covenants

01:04:03

They were non -conformist and That was one of the main arguments that was used against them

01:04:10

And they were willing to go to prison for it So that's what it means to be a particular

01:04:16

Baptist That that's the whole that's the whole point, isn't it?

01:04:23

And so now we're gonna pretend that that's not our history and go well, okay

01:04:30

Our forefathers said hey on these issues. We're standing on scripture alone

01:04:37

And We know that the majority of people and the majority of the church

01:04:43

We say they're wrong They need to be corrected by scripture

01:04:52

Okay, that does not make you a Sassanian and anybody who says that it does is Just not playing with a full deck of theological cards.

01:05:05

Well, I would certainly say this Dr. Renner has just republished Vindicae Veritatis By Nehemiah Cox and when

01:05:14

I've read through the first chapter of that, I almost thought wow, we're living through this again Thomas Thomas Collier's approach to the

01:05:21

Bible his Individualistic crass kind of solo scriptura approach

01:05:31

As opposed to solo scriptura approach and not understand the historical difference has produced has produced a culture in which my exegesis and my

01:05:42

Interpretation is infallible and you've got you can't you can't in any way judge it or disagree with it

01:05:47

Even though it's completely out of step with the historical exegetical theological understanding of the church

01:05:57

I don't know anybody who claims that But that issue aside on baptism and on ecclesiology your exegesis of All the key baptism texts are against the exegesis of the church

01:06:20

Depends on how you define the church, huh, which is why even on ecclesiology there is a difference

01:06:27

Why is it so easy to point out the inconsistencies? Well, we're not talking about those things.

01:06:33

We're only talking about Theology proper we're talking about We're talking about stuff that almost nobody in their

01:06:42

Christian life ever even thinks about or makes application to a particular understanding of Divine simplicity and a particular understanding of inseparable operations that most people have never heard of but that's the whole thing

01:06:57

We're recovering orthodoxy Which is more important than baptism in the form of the church and stuff like that,

01:07:03

I Don't understand this. I do not understand it and I don't think almost anybody else does either and It certainly is insufficient to actually be identifying

01:07:18

Fellow Reformed Baptists as neo -sassanians. Now, like I said,

01:07:24

I haven't noticed I've obviously gone over time now Um, let me just see if in this next section the the other other part

01:07:32

I wanted to play is there and if not well Well, I have the spirit

01:07:38

I am able to do this that's what I mean by a kind of neo -sassanian approach John Mark that we have to recognize is a disaster because what it does it sets up Individual men like Steve said with our individual ministries and they become that's almost people authority they are they are the standard for exegesis and Interpretation of confessional documents and those of us who would even dare to say, you know, we may have this wrong

01:08:05

We are the ones who are viewed then as the troublers of Israel and in many ways what we're doing is trying to call the church back to you know a conformity to orthodoxy and And there are many examples we could cite without going into them today but one of the major ones quite frankly is the the canonicism that has pervaded a

01:08:25

Christological understanding of Christ and there is you know, we could we can send you the videos of well -known people

01:08:33

Making claims that you know, Christ has divested himself of any of his divine of some of his our divine attributes there are certain things that he he certainly does not know and I don't know about the rest of you, but I know what he's referring to don't you we all do

01:08:51

I'd love to see these videos Brother you just need to step out and post it and The reason you're not doing is because you know what

01:09:03

I will do when you do so, you know it That's why you're not doing it

01:09:11

But you post this stuff and I'm gonna put in its context and I'm gonna demonstrate

01:09:16

That not only is this in perfect orthodoxy with Calvin and everybody came after him

01:09:24

Okay, Calvin and those who defended the faith who came after him

01:09:30

But I'm also going to demonstrate that you believe that the glory that Christ had in the presence of the

01:09:43

Father in eternity past Was veiled during the Incarnation You believe that You have to believe that every orthodox person is always believed and accepted that That is not that does not mean that Jesus's glory ceased to exist during the

01:10:06

Incarnation but that to accomplish his role as Redeemer as incarnate

01:10:15

Son of God, he could not be walking through the streets of Jerusalem with a Shekinah glory

01:10:23

You don't get the interaction. It was necessary in his teachings if People are falling over dead burned by the presence of the glory of God So we know that the

01:10:37

Incarnation Involved in some fashion

01:10:45

Jesus entering into human flesh Administering as the

01:10:51

Messiah and in so doing talk about you know you guys

01:10:58

Well, you need to use doctrine appropriations. You need to use this special terminology over here and it's not it's it's not by addition

01:11:04

It's by subtraction or it's not by subtraction by addition and it's and we don't want to use veiling we want to use a synonym over here and it's just like How about focusing upon?

01:11:15

Explaining what the Word of God says to the people of God Instead of all this philosophical mumbo -jumbo

01:11:23

How about doing that? That's the way to do it. So I am publicly challenging

01:11:31

Robert Briggs and Steve Meister Post it Post it

01:11:37

Put the names put the videos Stop with this Backhanded slander put it out there and Prepare to defend it.

01:11:51

And if you really want to push this if you really want to go this direction I'm still making reservations and organizations for the trips in the summer and the fall

01:12:05

Debate me formal debate How about in up in Nevada?

01:12:15

Not far for you to go I've got friends in the Reno area How about it

01:12:24

You have a challenge right now Put it out there

01:12:31

Or stop with it Just step back and go we are going the wrong way

01:12:37

This is not gonna end. Well The only way is to shine light on this only way to do it

01:12:46

So what about it? Well, cuz I didn't get to that point, but he hit a point says

01:12:53

We may have to name names. Yes, you do now Now put it out there

01:13:00

Stop with this stuff Post the videos give the references. Let's go

01:13:07

And I think a lot of people are gonna go well, wait a minute Those aren't that's just those are minor issues.

01:13:14

Yeah It just does seem to me that Reformed Baptists have a

01:13:21

Absolute intent to destroy themselves over minor issues. And if you don't mind

01:13:29

I'm not interested in going there My church is interested in reaching out to Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and Muslims and Roman Catholics and Fighting abortion and doing everything we can at this time in this way and this kind of picky you and stuff is

01:13:49

Not gonna stop us from doing it Not gonna stop us from doing it All the rest to it.

01:13:55

All right, anyway Didn't think I'd go that long. But there you go Should have known that I would once start once start playing audio.

01:14:02

You just have to realize That the time is going to go much much faster than you thought it was going to go and that's how it works

01:14:10

But you know the neat fight the neat thing now is I can sit here and make rich wonder when

01:14:15

I'm actually gonna stop talking As to when he's gonna start the music But when I do this when

01:14:20

I have this little a 10 mini pro running in the van I have to figure all that for myself.

01:14:26

It's much more complicated. This is much easier and Make put the weight on somebody else and you know,

01:14:31

I'm really surprised rich You didn't turn on your light or do your rich cam today I mean after all that you you haven't been able to comment for two and a half weeks on the dividing line

01:14:47

Okay. All right. I just thought for sure you you did make one comment so oh

01:14:55

You're gonna blame I'll go for that too. Okay. All right, so you all right. All right. Okay, I get it. I get it All right

01:15:01

Anyway, okay kids This Saturday I'm going to see the

01:15:06

Messiah with the granddaughters looking forward to seeing that if you have not listened to Messiah yet this

01:15:13

Christmas season I Don't know what you're doing You're wasting the whole time get a chance to listen to it.