Final Dan Barker Discussions Prior to Debate

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Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James White.

Preparing for the University of Illinois Debate and Reviewing Dan Barker

Hey, good morning. Welcome to the dividing line on last dividing line prior to the debate at the University of Illinois coming up this Thursday evening. I'm assuming it's seven o 'clock. I'd be surprised for as any other time.

So I'm going on. I sort of probably need to check that a little bit more closely. Anyway, the information is on the website. That of course is where my mind is. I am rushing about today. Trying to get everything packed up and trying to get my presentations put together.

I would like these to be Good-looking presentations solid presentations. This is not a subject that I have pre-existing presentations sitting around that I can draw from so I am Rushing around trying to put all that together.

I have a feeling I will be sitting at the gate tomorrow. Using up my battery power to be working on things as well. I've got a fairly decent drive once I land to get to where I'm going and I've got a lunch meeting with some folks.

So the day of the debate so only certain amount of time and I like being done Early, that's always good for me. Of course, I don't know I mentioned this but I had a next to a disastrous thing happen right before the ermine debate.

It was it was just great. I'm sitting there. I'm down there early like I always am talking with folks, you know. And all of a sudden I look around and I left my timers in My room which was a long ways away and it's not long before the debate.

So I'm heading up there and you know, what happens. I get to my door and you know, what happens those cards they get demagnetized. So I am way far away from the front desk and I can't get into my room to get them.

So I've got to go rushing back downstairs run up to the the thing get my card Remagnetized run it through the thing run back up there. I got there with like two minutes to spare. I think Michael Fallon was wondering what on earth is going on here, but we still get started on time.

But that's just not like me. I like getting there early have everything set up. That's just. You know, I'm early for dental appointments and everything else. That's just how I am. So anyhow Hopefully we'll get all that stuff done.

I'm really excited about the debate. I found three or four more debates online that I had not found earlier in an internet archive and So I've cranked out almost 70 miles the past two days so I could get them Listened to and they were both very very interesting.

One I had heard Dan talking about In a lot of his other debates and his other lectures and it was the debate that took place sometime around 2002 2003 with an Islamic apologist. And so I had double interest in hearing that obviously and we're gonna have a Muslim moderator For the debate at the University of Illinois as well.

So I plan on trying to make some application there as well to illustrate a few things especially how you would How the debate would be different if it was an Islamic Christian debate over against this illustrating the role of world views.

But anyway, so I got a chance to listen to that particular encounter while I was riding this morning. And I wanted to play one clip from that. I got it queued up just a few moments ago I've like I said, I'm moving at warp speed today or as warp speed as my Old PC here will allow me to move sometimes it loads up certain files.

It's like I'll be done in about eight minutes. Thank you. Don't rush me. You can't do that. So got this queued up. I want you to hear This particular statement because so often you you struggle in talking with atheists to get past their Their wishy-washy atheism isn't a belief thing, you know, and well, we're not really saying God doesn't exist.

It's like a belief in God la la la la that's not going to be necessary when I have this kind of citation from Dan Barker.

Ready to play. However, when it comes to a particular definition of God such as the Christian God or the Islamic God I Go further than just the negative soft lowercase atheism and I make the positive claim that that particular God Does not exist in that case.

I am an uppercase atheist. Especially when it comes to the gods of the revealed religions I am convinced and I claim to know that those gods the Christian God Allah Does not exist. It's not a belief. It is a claim of knowledge.

It is not a belief. It is a claim of Knowledge. He is a capital a hard atheist when it comes to the revealed religions Jehovah Allah they do not exist period end of discussion and so, of course being a rigorous Fundamentalistic naturalistic materialist absolutely rejecting the existence of anything beyond the natural realm.

Demanding you provide proof only from the natural realm for that which is supposed to be beyond the natural realm. One of the issues we're gonna have to discuss These You know falling into that epistemological camp.

To make that kind of a claim is is a pretty amazing thing and it's interesting. How does he do this? He's not going to be able to object to my providing an internal critique of his position as Evidence of my own because that's how he makes his argument.

Think about the list of alleged contradictions that we've been looking at from the Kyle Butts debate from just a few months ago. How did he demonstrate that the Christian God does not exist by going to the Bible Isag eating certain passages ignoring context language and just general fairness.

But coming up with these rather surface level contradictions saying the Christian God. Therefore it does not exist if the Bible says that he's good. And then the Bible says that he has does terrible things.

Therefore the Christian God does not exist. So he's trying to provide an internal critique not going to have much of a basis for complaining. If I do the same thing, but only do it fairly and properly and soundly and so on so forth.

So it's important to recognize that Mr. Barker is emphasizing. He is making the statement. It is a element of knowledge. That the Christian God does not exist from his perspective now before I go back to The Contradiction stuff.

I also want to play another section. You're gonna have to crank the volume on this rich because this is really really low and much much lower than the clip I was just playing Yesterday I listened to a debate on intelligent design that mr. Barker did and it was rather frustrating because I do not get the feeling that well, it was frustrating because the person he was debating a number of times just Had a softball thrown at him and just swung and missed just just big-time and that's that's always difficult to watch or listen to.

But mainly just the the the fundamentalist level of mr. Barker's Materialism just kept coming out over and over and over again, and I just have not heard him deal meaningfully when I hear him trying to parallel the Irreducible complexity of biological systems that that carry information The the DNA system.

I just downloaded a video just incredible what you can do today a video on the production of ATP from a ADP Cellular respiration it something I had to learn back when I was in college. I was biology major but now It's it's even more wondrous because we can create these 3d models of how this works and you have this this machine sitting there that brings in protons and the protons come in one way and they cause the thing to spin on a shaft and that shaft then turns.

The Shaft goes down into another structure that turns and In that structure you have various proteins that have to be shaped absolutely perfectly so that they move in and out from each other just perfectly and as it turns it moves these and Brings in ADP and produces ATP and kicks it out and it can even go in reverse When the need is there and that's happening in your cells all the time.

It makes it's as it's as complex as what's going on in any hydroelectric plant producing electricity in those big turbines You know that are going through except this can this can automatically detect when it needs to reverse itself.

I mean, it's incredible and To look at that and go wow, it's amazing how stuff just sort of flawless together like that it just leaves me stuttering as To how man can be so Self-blinded you have to be sitting there sticking pins in your eyes to not see how obvious Design is here Intelligent purposeful design.

It's right there and I've not heard any any challenges along those lines and I'm You well, you'll see anyway, I wanted to listen to this and we were getting some phone calls I wanted to listen to one particular part of this exchange and it's very very interesting as They're going back and forth because you see I have I have determined and and detected that Dan is While he will you know, he obviously holds to neodymium micromutational evolutionary theory as to how mankind Came to be mankind now to the problem is Dan appreciates beauty in the world way too much for an evolutionist.

He plays jazz piano. He plays chess. He he he sees beauty in the world. And so he just can't stay there. He can't stay in the law of tooth and fang and so Like others he's starting to develop this idea that well, okay.

Yeah. That kind of natural selection is how we got to a certain point. But then once our brains got big enough everything changed and you see what we need to do is we need to evolve beyond evolution we need to go beyond this he's an inconsistent Darwinian and That's gonna come up too as well.

I assure you but here's here's that comes out listen to This a couple of minutes of exchange from this debate on intelligent design.

We all have these canine teeth here that were designed by natural selection to tear apart flesh. To tear and to kill animals. We all have violence within our history. I think I'm a pretty peaceable guy, but I suppose any one of us have pressed hard enough that would come out, right?

But we have since evolved a higher cranium a frontal lobe. The frontal lobe of your brain is what's keeping you from burping out loud during this meeting tonight, you know. It's the part of you that's controlling The lower what we sometimes call the animal instincts so we are at the level now in our development where we can ask questions about morality.

A secular humanist like myself and my family Says that any person can be called ethical or moral who intends to act in ways that minimize harm so ethics and morality are actually somewhat Anti-evolutionary because if we were just to go back to pure animal instincts and not have this higher brain that's able to think and reason.

Then we wouldn't even have a concept of ethics and morality. We would just all be survival of the fittest and I would kill you and and hurt you and you know what I mean. But we're not we now have this brain.

We now have this intelligence. We now have a higher level than some of the other mammals because of the increased complexity of this brain that we can start framing questions about reality in in ethical terms, so You know, it's a bell curve.

Most of us fall in the middle of the curve over here on this edge are the psychopaths the sociopaths the people who are mentally unhealthy that we put in jails and I think they're beyond hope. I know there's nothing you can do.

I mean, they're they're sick. The brain is gone in some way over here are people who are somewhat more criminal and in the middle are you and I most of us and over here are the People that we call what the Saints or the whatever the people that and we all we all fall within that in some way but since Education tries to teach all of us to treat each other with respect and fairness so we can all get along.

We're social animals after all then we just use a very simple principle a rational kind principle. That says if you truly intend to act in ways that minimize harm, you can't eliminate harm. Sometimes you have to cause harm to minimize harm.

But if you're acting in ways that are truly trying to minimize harm in the world. Then you are called an ethical person and certainly my wife who's a third-generation atheist and my daughter who's fourth generation.

Are stellar examples of good moral intelligent kind people. They were never raised on religion or Jesus or the Bible or Genesis 1 and 2. Millions of good Americans millions of people on this planet live very good lives probably better lives than the average believer if you trust George Barnes studies.

Born-again Christians have a higher divorce rate than atheists. They commit more crimes. They contribute less to charity. They watch just as many x-rated movies. They take just as many drugs for depression and morally Believers in God or Christianity have no edge in the real world.

I used to preach that there was an edge there. Morality basically boils down to Us trying to get along as social animals in the real world using the tools of reason and of kindness. Earlier, I pointed out that the church has a higher accountability for being faithful to the good order of creation.

A Darwinist a Darwinist has no such accountability to the struggle of Survival and notice what Dan just said. He said natural selection is quote a vicious horrible process now is that beautiful and He said intrinsically that as its definition because it is a survival of the fittest and so the person who may be Pathologically at the fire of the bell curve, maybe they're just closer to evolutionary process.

And this is the problem that TH Huxley faced in 1893 was he wanted to evolve above that? Well, that's quite a statement of faith that we've evolved to a higher form now the 20th century was the most blood-letting century in all of human history and in fact If you look at the sociology of Darwinism and and Nietzsche to Spencer on forward and you read Mary Pryde's book the proud tower what it was from the early 1880s to 1914 was one long call for war in Europe and science incarnate and Darwinian survival of fittest were exactly the same clauses in that mindset the German Kaiser on Outward the first right the second right the third right and so the evidence is quite contrary there's no evolution to a higher form whatsoever that comes out of Survival of fittest and and final response to that good observation is the survival of the fittest is might makes right?

It's the justification for tyranny and the only reason that people don't do it is because the image of God is more powerful yet. And the image of God wants to love our neighbors as ourselves and take care of the weak Darwinian evolution cannot explain the concept of mercy.

Now Dan goes on to assert that oh, yes, yes, it can because there is this this attempt now on the part of a number of writers to try to explain naturalistically every aspect of human existence and it is obvious that care for the sick care for the the young etc is a part of human nature and You can't explain that on micromutational neo-darwinian Principles and so they're trying to come up with ideas that well You know once you have the bigger frontal lobe once you have community then all this changes now of course.

One might then ask a simple question What if you have a person? who believes in Darwinian evolution and believes that the greatest good is the propagation of his genotype into the next generation in the largest way possible and if that's the ultimate good then then rape and murder and pillage is absolutely fine.

The eugenics of the Nazis and things that absolutely fine now Dan could sit there and say oh, I think that's terrible. Morality by definition is doing the least harm now. That's his definition. So inside The the bony cavern that is the head of Dan Barker you have certain chemical reactions going on.

The the the sodium potassium pump is is is is active in certain phospholipid layers resulting in certain electrical stimuli so that you can have certain neurons firing and so they get together in a certain way that says I Define morality as not doing any harm.

The other guy who wants to spread his genotype far and wide could care less about that walks up blows your brains out and there's Nothing wrong with that because he has now in his worldview made the human race better because it's just his genotype that is going to be passed on to the next generation and He cannot say that's wrong.

He can say well, we can all get together and we can pass laws that say that people like that are bad. Well, that's nice and wonderful, but that's not announcing anything other than you don't really have a moral foundation for anything other than just what's between your two ears and that is the case, but isn't it fascinating to hear a naturalistic materialist a fundamentalist naturalistic materialist saying that we need to evolve beyond Evolution we need to evolve beyond Tooth and claw well.

Maybe the reality is that that's not how we got there in the first place and that that guilt that has been shown By mankind for as long as we know mankind as mankind Reflects the fact that he was created in the image of God and that the Direction that he has been going ever since then has not been upward.

It has been downward away from that high calling. I think that explains things a whole lot better eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number. Let's take some phone calls and let's talk with rich in Rhode Island.

Hi Rich Doing good.

Yes. Yes. This past weekend we hosted our annual gathering for our state and our executive minister decided to have Bart Campolo. Come and speak. Who at our church. Bart Campolo.

Tony Campolo's son. Oh, I didn't know that Tony Campolo had a son named Bart. So that's news to me. He's a hardcore.

Straightedge. Universalist as you like to describe himself. Oh. He has a website he has a mission thing that he does in Walnut Hills and.

Why would a universalist do missions work? I don't know. It's just sort of hard to understand, you know, I.

Ended up spending it and Getting verbally beat up a little bit your sermon they posted from Sunday.

Timely and and I really Appreciate that. The one on God's judgment or the one on first Corinthians the one on the. Basically, it was the one you just put up. I posted. I posted two of them. I put one on the blog.

Well, yeah, yeah, yeah I dealt with yeah, okay, it was the Sunday morning one, okay.

Yeah, yeah, whether you get admission or not and go into Someone that's gonna assign Gandhi to hell then he wants to go just let him go as well.

Oh, I I think that that's exactly where he's headed. And there and you know, Dan Barker does the same thing. You know if God could create a hell that I'm gonna be a moral enough creature stand up to him and tell him that he Should go there himself and I'm gonna go there gladly because I don't want to be with a god like that blah blah blah blah.

And yeah, you know once you Turn God into just a big a big creature and you've never experienced what Job Job experienced when he had his interview with God and What did what did Job do he laid his hand upon his mouth.

When you've never had the experience that Isaiah had to see the holiness of God and he recognizes his own sin. When you have a very low view of God, it's real easy to have a very high view of man. So that's that's not too unusual.

He said I had a I guess because I hold to the inspiration of all scripture. You're saying I have an unhealthy view of scripture. Oh, well, that's he can himself a red-letter Christian. Only the red only the red letters that are loving God.

Like not where.

He's a modern Martian. He chops the Bible up according to his predilections. That's nothing new about that. Thomas Jefferson did the same thing that heresy has been around for a long time. And now has Tony Campolo made any public statements about the fact that his son is a raving heretic.

Well, I guess Christianity Today had done a an article a couple years back. Mr. Campbell, I found out that he was coming. I didn't really know who he was. I ended up forcing a vote on Sunday, and I didn't.

I couldn't.

Why would anybody want him to come talk? Anyways, they were looking for a different perspective.

Because of because of his mission because he is in there helping the poor on the front line in the slums of Doing the work of Christ and I and I agree that we should be out there. Helping people in their physical needs and in this spiritual need to ditch either side.

Wow. Okay. Well, I think that's where they were. They were trying to bring a different perspective and.

Yeah, let's Let's let's just why don't we have the Mormons come in and the Buddhists come in and I guess that's what happens in a lot of churches today, so yeah. Well, that's interesting rich. I didn't know anything about Bart Campolo, but now we've now we've heard about him.

Yeah. Alrighty. Well, thank you, sir. Thank you. Thanks for coming. All right, let's go to Gideon in New York. I Gideon. It's going pretty good. Well naturalist materialist in his worldview and a functionalist in how he explains For example how the laws of logic he does not believe the laws of logic exist.

They are functions of the human brain and they have no existence outside of that. They are not Universal abstract entities that are reflective of a created order. They're just simply how our minds interact with the world around us.

And so that's what I meant by a Functionalist that's how he explains the existence of the law of non-contradiction or something like that. And then as a natural materialist.

I was wondering I was noticing that there's a big inconsistency on this view because if For instance the laws of logic are fully contingent upon whether or not our brains are functioning permanent then on that view of looking at things wouldn't that mean that God exists half the time because when he goes to sleep the Law of non-contradiction is suspended and God pops back into existence.

Is there no more contradictions in the Bible? Yeah. Well, you know, I.

One of the points I'm going to make is that From that perspective when when Dan Barker goes to sleep Then you can have square circles and he and and once he's asleep. There is no basis for Accusing the Bible of contradiction or things like that.

And and of course once he dies then then that's all over with as well. So it is an amazingly Shall we say shallow? perspective to hold but He he presents it with the fervor of his former fundamentalist days of preaching.

Well, you're right, but you're quite correct that that does. When when you limit those things to mere chemical reactions or as Doug Wilson put it atoms bang around against each other inside someone's cranium it there again, I think most well, I think everyone if By the grace of God, they're not suppressing the knowledge of God recognizes the foolishness of such thinking but That's what happens when you try to suppress the knowledge of God.

Is it results in that kind of foolishness? All right. I think it was.

British evolutionist DBS Caldane that said if my thought processes are determined only by the motions of atoms in my brain Then I have no reason for supposing any of my beliefs for true and hence. I have no reason for suppose.

That's true.

Yeah, and I've heard that quotation and yet people don't see the circularity of their their thought process at that point and You know, you have to feel for the naturalistic materialist. It's a it's a pretty it's a real bummer world.

If it's really the way things are and Dan's willing to embrace that he that part of his his presentation is yeah. We are cosmic broccoli. On the cosmic on the cosmic level. There's no difference between us and broccoli.

We're cosmic broccoli. There's no cosmic meaning. There's no transcendent meaning when you're dead. You're dead. That's it. That's there's there's no. No transcendent purpose or any of those things he says what if it is that way.

Are you just afraid to live in a world like that? And You know, there is a part I think of us that naturally recoils against that and it's not just because of our quote-unquote upbringing either so. Anyway, but yeah, he does like to use that that that presentation.

Okay, thanks Gideon, all right. Eight seven seven. Seven five three three three four one is the phone number. We're gonna be taking our break here in a moment and then coming back finally getting back after all this time To that list of alleged contradictions that Dan uses to say the Christian God does not exist and we'll continue with that.

We'll be right back.

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Thank you.

And welcome back to the vying line after our little break there. Let's get at least a couple of more of these alleged contradictions in.

Now, of course, what is the needed foundation to make that work. And that is the assertion that when God does the things He's described.

As doing in. We looked at Isaiah 45 before. In other context response Dan Barker that somehow makes him evil. Dan doesn't explain why that is. He doesn't explain that. The fact that from the biblical perspective what God does is just and righteous because God does it He just simply judges from a human perspective and makes assumptions and creates a false contradiction as a result doesn't quite.

You know, we already did that one didn't we. I know we did that one. I thought I had written down the the thing here. And boy, we have a really really loud noisy line on this computer. There We go. We were the slavery one, I'm not sure how I miss that.

My apology. You know when you've listened to I don't know how many of Dan Barker's how many hours of Dan Barker's stuff. I've listened to over the past month and a half or so since it's arranged. It's hard to remember exactly where you were.

It's certain points of you don't get it typed out, right?

You shall buy them and they shall be your possession you shall they shall be your bondsmen forever.

I just want to stop right there and just make a comment. The Bible's a pro-slavery book. I You know You can get away with this kind of stuff because let's face it. If the political situation our land has not illustrated this people just don't think very clearly anymore.

Rhetoric is more than enough to befuddle the average American mind. And basically the average Western mind we have been taught what to think not how to think and as a result, well, it's it's it's messy and.

So he talks about a pro-slavery book. So what he does is he speaks Post slavery in the United States and knows his audience is going to assume it that way. They're not going to realize That in the ancient world, this wasn't even an argument there wasn't pro-slavery anti-slavery.

Slavery was the reality of the economic system just as the vast majority of nations were not Democratic republics or anything like that. Like ours is not any longer anyways, but there they were mainly mainly despotic monarchies and and Empires and and so on and so forth and so instead of Dealing with it in a meaningful fashion.

Where you deal with it in its context and the fact that the Bible recognizes slavery it Places bounds upon slavery. It places limitations upon slavery rather than going. That's pretty amazing that this book.

And in these people had these these really unusual and humane limitations. So much so that it even has to discuss. What you do with with slaves who want to remain in the household? We see these odd situations where people who are called servants or slaves of great men want to stay there.

They they had they are willing to fight and die not just because somebody puts a sword to their back. But because they love this person. They are part of the household. We this is weird. We can't understand this because we only have one unbiblical view of slavery say Slavery was a means by which people could stay alive in an economy that did not have any safety nets and.

To fail to recognize these things and to fail that well Jesus never called for an uprising of the slaves. As I said before What you're saying there is for Christianity to be true. It had to have been a revolutionary religion in every land in which it was proclaimed for the first how many?

Hundreds of years of its existence. And and they get away with this because they know that their audience well they they themselves are probably ignorant to half that stuff but They get away with it because they know their audiences are not going to have any type of Historical grounding upon which to think these things through and to be fair and reading it and all the rest that stuff but that's why they get away with it and It's a shame that it happens, but that's just the way it is, but we continue with his assertion.

Now he doesn't then say he doesn't when he quotes the Colossians passage. Where slaves and large portion of the early Christians were slaves? Were told to obey their masters and not just as men pleasers, but as those serving Christ.

But what a D also say and if you were a Christian and you own slaves you were to treat them in a particular way. Now again, we we don't like any of that because well we have employment. Well the application today would be between employees and employers.

But it's it's just it's meant to just simply use an emotional word To shut down all critical thought and that's what he's doing here, and I you know I'm sure it's highly effective for those who don't think clearly.

But for those who do it really reflects badly upon the person using the argument.

The God of the Bible is pro-slavery. The God of the Bible is anti-slavery. He does not exist.

Now that was a really pathetic attempt to create a contradiction. Again as long as context means nothing and you can just simply slice and dice any way you want. Anybody could take everything that Dan's written and turned into foolish contradiction as well, but that was particularly bad.

Attempt to create a contradiction. Again another pathetic attempt because you you take titles, and you don't look at what they're supposed to mean. And and then attempt to create such a surface level contradiction between the two as if well if you're the God of peace.