Last DL in Phoenix Before Trip: Roman Catholic Arguments

Alpha & Omega Ministries

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:42

Well, greetings and welcome to a morning edition of The Dividing Line. We've got to get Just trying to get to the next really five weeks

00:54

Yeah, right at five weeks gonna be irregular as far as when the program is going to be

01:00

Lord willing Assuming that we make it all the way through this trip so 35 days on the road and That means

01:13

If you don't have the app, you're never gonna know when we're live But obviously everything is posted afterwards and most everybody listens to it in that way

01:21

Anyways, so but we'll we will do our best to let you let you know Your prayers sincerely desired for this this upcoming trip

01:33

I Really wanted to start off at a hundred percent health and I am

01:38

NOT that's just another thing to need to need to fight through but five debates teaching at Grace Bible Theological Seminary the

01:50

YCalvinism conference in Tullahoma 4 ,500 miles of driving in winter weather according to What they keep sending me from Conway.

02:03

They're expecting the frigid temperatures to return

02:10

Next let's see by the end of the week In the mid portion of the

02:15

United States, we will see no one. No one can predict the weather overly well so so who knows but We will we will see but your prayers definitely very much appreciated for all those those things now

02:35

I Was sent this video And I mentioned this is from Zoo Town Church in Missoula, Missouri and I Wasn't going

02:54

Looking for for anything This as I said was was sent to me and this is a fellow

03:07

Scott clout Klaudt Scott clout and I don't know anything about him

03:18

Evidently he came into this church about a 90 % of the congregation left and He's doing a series right now it's sort of as one person described it

03:37

He's a mixture of Roman Catholic Eastern Orthodox and Rob Bell type theologies

03:45

Quite an interesting rather noxious mix of things when you think about it But someone a

03:52

Roman Catholic Took this sermon and edited it and put these key statements all in a

04:03

I think it's only a minute and 42 second clip and Put it on Facebook, and that's how it got sent to me and So, you know,

04:15

I don't when he starts When he starts off he's obviously talking about I would assume no,

04:22

I would assume he's talking about When he gained these insights into You know

04:30

Rob Bell type theology is the old emergent church

04:37

Mishmash of stuff and So You know, who knows what what prompted all that?

04:47

I don't know but he's talking about something that where you know, 90 % of his friends left and Stuff like that But it's it's this it's the the kind of claims that he makes.

04:59

I realize most people in this audience Would be able to identify

05:05

Just how far off base this stuff is but sadly a lot of people would be to know that and and and just That that's why and I've said this many times before People ask what classes you took in college and seminary that was the most important to you and doing apologetics

05:28

I've always said the same thing Greek and church history Greek because That's the the focus upon you know that if there's gonna be misrepresentation of the text in New Testament, it's probably be based upon some type of linguistic argumentation and in church history because I'm sitting here thinking

05:51

I can't think of any group we've dealt with it doesn't make weird and wild claims about church history

05:57

You know the Mormons Wow, okay Jehovah's Witnesses. Oh, yeah

06:02

Uh -huh Atheists. Yep. No, they'll say wild and crazy things about church history

06:08

The Muslims will make all sorts of interesting claims about what Christians have done in the past Church history is really important.

06:15

And that's what you get here is just a a scattergunning of claims now

06:21

I Actually was able to track down the sermon from which this all came from.

06:27

I think it was called how it all started I think that's what it was called and it's fairly recent.

06:32

I think I Think this was the 24th of January somewhere around there sometime somewhere between 19 24th

06:40

January, so just a couple weeks ago and It just oh

06:49

It's interesting that a Catholic took this and Then put the subtitles and stuff in to give it a

06:58

Spin toward Rome basically, but I want to just run through it since This is the kind of stuff that People throw out and This kind of stuff we've been responding to for years and years and years and years so let's let's take a listen to it and I'll stop and start and we'll go from there.

07:24

I lost 95 % of my relationships Because of this I had brothers.

07:30

I shared meals with go and destroy me because of this but it's the truth rap so I would assume that this is the

07:41

Stepping outside of it what it reminds me of a lot to be honest with you is

07:48

This the language of the deconstructors, you know when I started deconstructing when

07:53

I started Fundamentally moving outside the realm of Christian Orthodoxy Then my my brothers destroyed me and and and and said well, yeah their

08:09

Decisions have consequences and That's what was what was going on there so Like I said, the editing here is pretty pretty fast moving

08:21

So it's gonna be hard to stop and start real well rapture isn't going to happen guys it was invented in the 1800s you think

08:30

Well, who cares my sweet wife who grew up assemblies of God had to repent all day because she was afraid

08:36

She was gonna go to heaven and the rapture might happen and all this. This is a beat Okay, uh, you know,

08:47

I grew up believing in the rapture I Would not call that abusive

08:53

And I still have lots of friends who are dispensational pre -millennialists

08:59

Not sure how many of them would actually claim me as a friend. But anyway and Can can anything be used in a in a way that produces religious control now you have to This is something that people don't think a lot about and it it should be something we think a lot about What is the difference between?

09:29

abusive religious control that you see in cults and abusive churches and an emphasis upon holiness

09:42

Honestly It's a matter of the heart it's a matter of balance.

09:47

It's a matter of solo scriptura and tota scriptura It's a matter of preaching the whole counsel of God and Have have could you find people who have been spiritually abused and The fear of the rapture is held over their heads

10:09

Look at look at look at Jehovah's Witnesses now, they don't believe in a rapture in the same way, but Jehovah's Witnesses one of the

10:18

And I saw it many times They were taught and they're changing right now.

10:25

So exactly how this functions amongst them right now. I couldn't tell you but They were taught that when

10:36

Armageddon takes place Those who are alive on earth when it happens if they have not been given a chance

10:45

They will be given a chance during Millennium if they Have for example rejected

10:50

Jehovah's Witnesses They will not be resurrected. They will not be given a chance during so you've got a

10:59

Imminent gonna happen any second eschatological thing that's hung out there and You're always left going fine.

11:09

I leave the society And then Armageddon takes place

11:15

I'm toast and that has kept many a person from Listening to Information about the society stuff like that.

11:26

And so can that happen outside of the Watchtower? Yeah No two ways about it.

11:32

And as far as The dispensational understanding of those things. Yeah the formulations that are very popular today

11:45

Come from the 1800s, that's that's true, but they'll argue that the

11:51

Foundational aspects are much earlier than that and clearly there's

11:57

Forms of millennialism that go go way way back but anyways, so Tell little kids

12:04

God's gonna burn them over the rotisserie at some Bible camp Catholics worship. Mary. No, okay

12:09

No, all right. Hold on. There's there's two two things there, unfortunately at least Okay, Bible camp.

12:17

Um Are there? Many many many many people who are hard are

12:29

Hardened to the presentation of the gospel today Because they were emotionally

12:38

Manipulated at some kind of religious event Just to inflate numbers, you know,

12:46

I I think of the church actually Drove through the parking lot of this church.

12:53

I forget where it was. I think it was in Georgia Told the story before where there was this church that had a special kids baptistry

13:05

Where it was in the form of a pirate ship and When the kid would get baptized then the cannons would go off When they get and they get baptized

13:18

Seriously, you know, I remember that you don't remember that. Oh, I remember telling that story. Um, oh

13:25

Yeah, I'd look If I wanted to find more and more examples of that,

13:32

I'm sure that I very much could and you know You know what? The argument is gonna be we're just trying to open doors for people to come to know

13:42

Jesus You know, but what they're really trying to do is The pastor of that church wants to have a shot at being the president of the

13:50

SPC so you need to have as many baptisms as possible and I We didn't

13:58

In all my years at North Phoenix Baptist Church When it had allegedly 20 ,000 members and you could never find more than 7 ,000 of them in any given

14:09

Sunday Um There were never kiddie baptisms with with cannons

14:17

Richard Jackson would never have allowed it but the last

14:22

Sunday before the end of reporting for The calendar year of baptisms for the

14:29

Southern Baptist Convention there would always be a sermon on baptism and There would be a special super special emphasis

14:40

You'd send people out to people who had come forward and made a commitment, but hadn't been baptized yet and he had a special, you know whole groups of volunteers in the back and lots and lots and lots of robes ready to go and There would be a special super long service where after the preaching you call everybody forward if you have not been baptized you've heard how important this is and Man I I remember one of them when

15:10

I was running camera at North Phoenix and I was in I was in the

15:18

On that Sunday. I was running camera too, which is in the balcony So I'm I'm basically straight across from the baptistry because it was really

15:27

Elevators way up there as above the choir loft the choir loft could seat almost 300

15:33

So it's huge. You can go see it. Look up North Phoenix. Look up Glen Campbell, North Phoenix And there there's a really he'd no more nights

15:42

He's saying about two weeks after I left North Phoenix. So I just missed recording being one of the cameramen doing that And you'll get to get a sense of how big this place was.

15:54

I mean and it still is they just don't use it The church is there now is still

15:59

North Phoenix Baptist Church, but they meet in the Chapel, you know meet in the you did not you didn't know that.

16:06

Oh, yeah, they meet in the chapel Yeah, can you have any do you have any idea what it would cost to fire up the air -conditioning in that place?

16:13

It's just just unbelievable and they can fit in the chapel which seats almost 600 So it's a tiny in comparison to what it once was but you know, you've got this

16:23

Massive place. What are you gonna do with it anyway? So I'm I've got the camera up on the thing we're not broadcasting this we're not recording it, but I'm just standing there it's my job

16:35

And they're getting people through I mean they would baptize 80 90 100 people in one one shot to get that number up as high as possible and They're forget this is a little little lady comes down and Jackson would he'd close his eyes and he put his hand up and you know a name of the

16:56

Father Son Holy Spirit Well, his eyes are closed little old lady goes And you can hear an audible gasp

17:06

From the audience he has no idea why he didn't he never saw it but Just just give me an idea that there wasn't there wasn't really any instruction going on.

17:15

It was just get the numbers up. So Anyway didn't don't know why decided to tell you that story from so long long ago well, actually

17:24

I had dinner last night with a bunch of folks from Grand Canyon from years and years and literally almost 40 years ago now and So we were telling stories that must be why

17:36

I was thinking about that but Anyway, are there is there manipulation like that?

17:43

Oh, yeah Yeah No toys about it and it's really hard to reach those people because they've they've come down the aisle and they've shaken somebody's hand and They were told on the basis of first John chapter 5 that you're saved and you've got your ticket punched and nothing's going to change that and you're going to heaven and That's why

18:12

When the there was a regime change at North Phoenix The next guy came in Just honestly told people

18:20

I was gone by then but honestly told people The the back door of this church is bigger than the front door of this church

18:29

He said we've we've we've baptized Thousands of people have no idea where they are

18:36

No idea. They're they're not a part of a church or not anything, but they've been told they're saved and That's all there is to that.

18:43

So Is that an unusual thing? No Unfortunately, it definitely happened in in the past.

18:51

It may not be quite as popular today. It's just some because of secularism I don't know. But anyways, then the next thing that was said very quickly

18:58

Catholics worship Mary. No, they don't you know, the church came before the Bible 3 Okay, so so here comes this

19:05

He has been being mentored by a Roman Catholic priest so here he is in a quote -unquote

19:15

Protestant Church, and he says now this isn't meant to be a recommendation to Roman Catholicism, but then you get

19:23

We've been told that Catholics worship Mary no, they don't Okay, then you explain what the

19:31

Reformers pointed out and that anyone would have to point out and that is that hyper -veneration is

19:44

Biblically the the hyper -dulia Which Rome gives to Mary is biblically no different than Latria worship

19:56

Now do they make it do they say they make a distinction? Yes, and as we said long long ago do you really think that the distinction that they make if you were brought before Moses and accused of worshiping an idol and We can show it'd be so easy just to go on YouTube right now

20:22

And you would you'd see these people and they're rocking back and forth and they're fingering their rosary beads and they're lighting candles and and they're looking longingly up at statues of Mary and and do you really think if you if you brought

20:35

Moses in that situation and He's looking at this You go. Don't worry

20:41

Mo. It's only hyper -veneration it's not worship and He'd go but the law says you shall not ahave and That can be translated as either

20:53

Latria or Dulia and frequently is in the Greek septuagint. There is no distinction It's not a biblical distinction at all.

20:59

It's a distinction of tradition that developed over time to excuse the giving to images of what should not be given to images or to Quote unquote

21:11

Saints and so on what's not to be given to them So just simply throwing out all the

21:19

Catholics don't worship Mary is is just as surface level as the jack -chick stuff against Catholicism That doesn't accomplish anything and Then not again this

21:39

You have to have to remember something None of this stuff that's on the screen was a part of the

21:52

Sermon so this is a Catholic guy, you know, I don't know what his connection is to this

21:58

Scott cloud guy Catholic guy who's throwing this stuff out there as A Evangelism type thing.

22:08

Okay, so he says, you know, the church came before the Bible and If You will hear

22:18

Roman Catholics saying this all the time sadly you heard Andy Stanley's it's the same thing and It's it's it's difficult for me to understand how those who say this

22:34

How they can have any serious knowledge of the New Testament? because there is a body that makes up two -thirds of the

22:43

Bible of literature That is quoted over and over and over and over again in the

22:52

New Testament If you know how to even look at it If you know how your translation indicates that if you got the

22:58

NASB or LSB it's the big old block print and others use italics and things like that, but so the

23:09

Concept of Scripture as an authoritative word from God is Is fixed and settled long before the birth of Jesus and If all they're saying is well

23:27

There was a 400 year period during which time the what we call the

23:32

Old Testament canon is Put into place not by infallible councils or things like that, but through use that's a given we all know that and You've got about the same amount of time in the

23:46

New Testament same type of thing again not infallible councils even from Rome's perspective even from Rome's perspective

23:54

There is no infallible Dogmatic decree on the canon of the church until April of 1546 15 46 that's a long

24:08

Time in the church history so this idea that you know that the

24:13

Bible came before the church came before the Bible is All meant to communicate the idea that the

24:20

Bible is under the authority of the church rather than the church being under the authority of the Bible and That is the

24:29

Roman Catholic understanding and numerous other Primarily liturgically oriented non solo scriptura practicing

24:39

Groups as well the church came before the Bible 300 years the church was around before the

24:44

Bible got brought together so again That doesn't mean that the church was around When it was it was brought together if you mean finally after the piece of the church of 313

25:02

You could have manuscripts like Sinaiticus or Vaticanus produced Where you have the entire

25:07

Bible between two covers if you were rich enough to afford stuff like that because it's very expensive if you if you if you mean

25:17

You know, what do you mean by brought together? What about a p66 p75 gospel manuscripts

25:26

Matthew Mark Luke John P45 Matthew Mark Luke John and Acts 220 ad

25:35

So So what exactly do you mean brought together Did Romans have less authority before it was brought together than afterwards

25:49

It doesn't seem to be any really serious thought Being put into what's being said here

25:55

But what you've got is you've got a guy raised in Protestantism with This is the result of being raised in a

26:07

Protestant Church without historically Protestant convictions regarding Roman Catholicism That just that's not uncommon unfortunately it it there are a lot of people like that and This is what you end up running into when they then start talking to a

26:28

Roman Catholic This starts throwing out church history stuff and you're like, well,

26:33

I didn't know anything about that And it's a shame and you know what? I love about the

26:38

Catholics. They can handle questions This is then notice what's no again. This isn't him to put

26:44

Catholic answers up there But if this is what he's saying

26:52

If it's was what he's saying not an endorsement of the Catholic Church. I also show okay

26:57

So so he says they they've got answers. Yeah, are you asking the right questions?

27:03

I Can give you all sorts of questions? And I'm sure in a few weeks again

27:09

Lord willing when Trenthorne and I lock lock horns in Texas both in Dallas and in Houston We will be raising a number of those questions and some of them have to do with Pope Francis Francis some grace.

27:28

He's the pastor of a Over multiple cultures multiple languages. It's hard to keep y 'all unified in Montana.

27:35

He'll say so Here you've got a a guy at Zootown Church in Missoula Pope splaining

27:49

Now does does he have any idea I don't have it now. I've already I've already put it in the truck But I pulled out my 1592

28:00

Catholic catechism the catechism the Council of Trent. I'll be bringing that with me and my

28:06

Current catechism, which normally I have down there. I've already put this stuff away does he have any idea of What the what the

28:15

Pope is doing and how the Pope is producing Contradictions has he listened to the bishops that were at?

28:24

The the Synod on the synod ality and Who have come out and said we had to sit there and get lectured on The need to be inclusive of LGBTQ individuals and We were we were given like 30 seconds to respond or 60 seconds or something like that Is he is he even aware of?

28:52

The changes and how the Pope's could be elected and the people on the papal biblical commission and putting pro -choice people on Abortion committees in the

29:02

Vatican and all that does even know any of this stuff. Does he understand what liberation theology is?

29:08

I don't know. It'd be probably like it if you're more into the Rob Bell Universalist type stuff You'd probably like all that stuff anyways

29:15

But now he's Pope's planning something and then the news media runs with it about what they don't phrase it even what

29:22

So so now notice this now again this guy Clout is not putting the stuff that's on the screen

29:30

So on the screen it says one does not bless the Union But simply people who together have requested it not the

29:37

Union but the persons Francis said etc, etc, which again is

29:43

Utterly Thankfully Red -pilled

29:50

Roman Catholics get it They understand that you do not bless

29:55

Persons who are in a situation of continuing in their rebellion

30:01

You know, you've seen you you've seen enough movies. You don't even have to be an ex -catholic

30:08

Is it really okay? All right, 1030. You don't have to be an ex -catholic To have heard bless me father for I have sinned

30:16

They're not saying bless me father for I have sinned bless me father as I continue in my sin I Have I don't know how people can't see this.

30:27

I I don't get it. I don't know Luther took out four books in the

30:35

Bible Luther took out four books in the Bible really now now you've now you start realizing

30:40

This guy if he ever went to Bible College wasn't listening or or or It's it's also quite possible

30:51

That wherever he went didn't teach about the canon of Scripture Reformation stuff like that Luther took out four books in the

31:03

Bible actually at best

31:09

You can point to places where he expressed Doubts concerning James Called it a right straw epistle, even though he quotes from it as scripture their entire books on that particular subject

31:26

But if you're talking about the Apocrypha, that's more than four books so you got to get your numbers straight here and Nobody Luther did not have the right to do and did not claim the right to Quote -unquote change anything to change the canon or remove books in the

31:44

Bible He didn't claim I have the right to determine what is in the Bible. What isn't about didn't didn't do any of that type of stuff and the position adopted by the

31:54

Lutherans about the apocryphal books I was just like to point out to the naive

32:01

Non -historical Roman Catholics That the

32:09

Cardinal Cardinal Cayetan He was he was interviewed by a number of Cardinals.

32:16

He meant as Cayetan but One of those that interviewed him,

32:22

I think immediately prior to the Diet of Worms. It might have been right afterwards. I'd have to Double check that anyway

32:31

Had written a book specifically Rejecting the canonical status of the apocryphal works saying don't be like a raw scholar and be

32:44

Influenced by this person or that person Jerome had it right and Jerome reject these books and he's right

32:50

Jerome did There were there were two streams of thought on that subject and as we say over and over again the people who knew the most about the

33:03

Jewish people and Their literature and could read Hebrew rejected the apocryphal books

33:11

Most of which were not even originally written in Hebrew written in Greek and so I Would just recommend the people

33:21

You know, I I did a debate on the apocrypha at Boston College back in 93 I think it was

33:29

But the the better one was with Gary Machuda on Long Island and You know just just pick up The Old Testament Canon New Testament Church Roger Beckwith read it read it yourself.

33:42

He didn't think they were legit Okay, he didn't think they were legit. Well Okay, nothing like giving a lot of information here.

33:50

I was in a cave Gabriel came to me and he gave me this revelation No one was there. Would we follow that but yet we're looking at Luther my dear

33:56

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. I'm sorry, but This this is a

34:09

Alleged Protestant and and this is this is as bad as When Candace Owens, you know was talking about her husband and And before her conversion to Rome she said he asked me a question that I couldn't answer and That and that is if you know to be a

34:30

Protestant you have to believe there weren't any any Christians before Luther And and I'm like no

34:39

No, have you read any of the Reformers clearly not that wasn't Luther's position. That wasn't

34:44

Calvin's position. That wasn't Zwingli's position none of that stuff so There are these traditionalistic type objections that just get circulated amongst these folks and Get repeated like that.

35:00

Like like we're somehow following Luther the way that the Muslims follow Muhammad. Are you serious?

35:08

All the Lutherans in the audience are laughing at that one. I mean, that's that's not even that's not even semi serious

35:15

That's just like what? What are you talking about man friend, this is how every cult starts he did not have the authority to do what he did and If he's talking about do what he did in regards to what?

35:30

I haven't had time because I only saw this last night, but I didn't have time to listen to this entire sermon

35:36

So maybe he's referring to something else, but if he's talking about The Canon and stuff like that again pure fiction

35:44

Pulp fiction even he was asked to come back into the church. He said no why because Martin Luther wanted to be the new pope

35:51

That's just baloney pure and utter baloney Everybody at Zootown Church, or if you know anybody at Zootown Church recommend they read you know here

36:04

I stand by Roland Bainton the Biography of Martin Luther the the last thing he wanted to be was the

36:16

Pope Not not even close. I mean this is just I don't even know how to describe it other than saying

36:25

This is a very ignorant man sitting in front of people Repeating absurdities.

36:31

He succeeded in inventing an entirely new religion. Here's my father Jarvis an entirely new religion again

36:39

Wow The Reformers didn't even complete the work of reforming to be quite honest with you but Here's someone who

36:51

I'll bet you dollars doughnuts if you walked up to Pastor Clout this coming

36:57

Sunday morning and said Who was Cardinal Satellito? He'd have no earthly idea and I'll bet you he's never read the correspondence the letter that Satellito wrote to the

37:10

Church of Geneva and Calvin's response Wouldn't have any idea of how the

37:16

Reformers very plainly Repudiated the idea that they were inventing a new religion.

37:24

This is a guy who just simply is Either waiting for Easter to become a

37:30

Catholic Or will next year Because he's already bought everything hook line and sinker without the slightest bit of Thought and Reflection on it says to me all the time.

37:47

He says you Protestants got rid of one Pope now you got millions. Yes Now you got millions.

37:52

Well, the one you got ain't doing used a whole lot of good right now. Now is he? There is no such thing as a papacy in the

38:02

New Testament There is there is no reason to believe that it was

38:08

God's intention that we function in that way at all and so What he's trying to say is now you've got all these people who are interpreting the

38:20

Bible for themselves Do you want Francis interpreting the Bible for you? Do you really do you really want to go there?

38:28

Do you look have you seen do you know anything? Anything about the people he has put on the papal biblical commission what they believe

38:36

I bet you don't I Bet you don't I Can guarantee you any?

38:44

Self -respecting conservative evangelical has a much higher view of Scripture than Francis does And I don't mean just saying oh, well, it's the

38:51

Word of God. I mean functionally Believing that it's a harmonious revelation

38:59

Not harmonious revelation because I Determine how to make it harmonious But I then submit to how it is harmonious

39:07

Including the things I don't like it did sweep across Europe. But for one reason money all the So the

39:14

Reformation swept across Europe because of money Partly yeah,

39:21

I wouldn't say money I would say politics The The old order was falling apart nationalism was on the rise we've talked about all this stuff again

39:32

I can point people back to the church history lessons that I did in the 90s a

39:41

PR BC which are out there and Finally converted mp3 from real audio all the way back there where we've talked about the influence of What were the factors that led to the

39:56

Reformation? Renaissance at Fonta's the printing press the rise of nationalism

40:05

These were all the black death The rise of middle class the rise of universities these all had to take place before the

40:14

Reformation could happen I don't get the feeling that's what he's covering At all and this

40:21

Catholic guy, you know with his The screen freeze here is is great with old big boy

40:28

Henry I'm assuming here King They thought the Catholic Church is the number one landowner in the world if we go with Luther We can take the

40:37

Catholic Church's money and land and they did King Henry VIII took 87

40:43

Billion dollars from the Catholic Church when he left Wow, I've heard some really

40:51

How naive do you have to be? types of arguments before This man knows nothing about church history.

40:59

It is so sad And the Catholic priest who's telling him knows nothing about church history either or at least in any semi fair rational

41:09

Balanced way and look at look at the the smug smile on on that face there.

41:15

It's it's Wow in England Again you had a sacral system in all of Europe at this time.

41:29

And so whatever religious Orthodoxy the church followed

41:38

The state Would enforce that which included

41:44

Those churches had been built with state monies and so in England you had churches that went from Catholic to Protestant back to Catholic under Bloody Mary back to Protestant after that I mean that was just that was just how things worked.

42:01

It wasn't You know and obviously 87 billion that that's in modern funds and that's talking about church properties and and Stuff like that that that that again, what was the

42:16

Catholic Church doing with all that stuff other than building st. Peter's Basilica And enriching the

42:22

Pope. I mean you want you want to talk about financial corruption want to talk about indulgences? You want to talk about stuff like that?

42:28

We can if you want to And and I'm gonna be the first one sitting here saying, you know

42:36

No, no question about the fact That The Reformation was not some pure Everybody I'm not sitting here saying everybody involved

42:47

Reformation had completely pure motives Frederick the

42:54

Elector of Saxony You know supported Luther did he have absolutely pure motives

43:02

No, I'm sure there were there were political things there as well. But let's

43:07

Let's realize The primary message of Luther was justification by faith the primary message of the

43:14

Pope was fidelity to me as the Pope and my my money and my riches and my power and That from the people who claim to be infallible

43:26

Let's keep this sort of that that gets lost. I'm afraid in some of the stuff here

43:33

Yeah, and that's the end of it it was only a minute 42 seconds so if If I didn't have so much else to be doing

43:43

I'd like to listen to that whole sermon I may anyways since I have it saved at home and I I May go ahead and throw it in there for the fun of it at some point but anyway so I've used most of my time here.

44:01

I want to play a segment from Trent Horn We have to be brief

44:10

This is from his debate with Gavin Ortlund on Solus Futura and this is the second rebuttal and I just want to specifically point out an

44:23

Element of argumentation always comes up when dealing with Roman Catholics. This is more serious.

44:28

Obviously in the last guy who doesn't know what he's talking about, but So, let's let's try to run through this in the 15 minutes that we have left it goes fast, doesn't it?

44:42

Well, we looked at Gavin's single argument and remember his single argument boils down to an assertion in premise two

44:48

There are no other infallible rules of faith besides Scripture. Okay, just real quickly

44:54

You're gonna be hearing all this again in a few weeks. Nothing. Nothing's gonna change Rome Makes a claim

45:01

Rome doesn't want to defend the claim So the way they refuse to defend the claim is by saying well, you can't defend your claim

45:11

That Scripture is the sole infallible rule of faith so we sit here and say

45:17

We can sit here and run through all of the unique characteristics of Scripture It's God -speaking they can't show us anywhere where tradition is

45:27

God -speaking. They can't show us anywhere where the papacy is spoken out by God They can't give us a psalm 119, which is about God's Word God's Revelation God's law

45:37

You can't do that for tradition. You can't do any of this kind of stuff and the same guys

45:42

Will it is absolutely incoherent for modern

45:48

Catholic apologists To on the one hand make this argument and on the other hand then use

45:56

Slap some Newman on it. Okay, because if You know, these are the people that tell you

46:05

Bodily assumption of Mary is a dogma you have to believe But we can't show it to you anywhere in Scripture, but you have to show us all the scripture

46:15

Okay, it is it is incoherent to accept the concept of the development of of Doctrine at the same time say but you have to you have to do this.

46:25

Well, it's just your standard you are making a claim that you just simply will not and cannot defend and today with Francis and Don't show

46:35

Fernandez. You really really are in a tough situation. I get it, but we have to point it out

46:43

Um, so but he can't cite anything in divine revelation that says that he's made fallacious arguments to try to Reach to that conclusion

46:51

Then remember I gave three positive arguments against sola scriptura that I have not been addressed

46:57

I said that if God intends for us to have sola scriptura, it would be clearly taught in Scripture Really like the bodily assumption, right?

47:07

Which you say is a day feed a dogma If you reject the bodily assumption of Mary you are anathema

47:17

Right, that's that that if words have meaning Now do I think

47:23

Francis believes that not for a second? That's why

47:28

I tell you in the year 1600 the Roman Catholic Church would have burned Francis and Tucho Fernandez and his really weird books

47:38

By fire and not purgatorial fire the real stuff, you know that smells really bad

47:44

They would have burned him Using green wood. That's right. The slow burning, you know meat falling off the bone type stuff

47:52

Yeah, so that a person using ordinary and do means to be able to find it Ordinary and do means can can show you a bodily assumption.

47:58

No, it can't Macula conception. No, it can't And I say to you

48:05

We can and we have and it's plain and it's clear

48:12

Jesus never said tradition cannot be broken, but he said scripture cannot be broken Jesus never said have you not?

48:21

Read what was spoken to you by God in tradition. He said that in Scripture and When you define the

48:31

Anustos in a meaningful believing fashion rather than a unbelieving fashion in other words if you define it on the basis of who wrote it and If you're gonna use

48:44

Poirier You don't know who wrote it. You're gonna have to throw it out there and say We don't know who wrote it

48:53

That changes how you define words. I Say a

49:00

And by the way, this is directly parallel to the 1946 movie

49:06

The 1946 movie is saying we can't really know what arson a coy tie means

49:13

Because of these sources that come hundreds of years afterwards They used it this way well, that's the same thing you're doing with the

49:22

Anustos and And the issue The only way to understand what arson koi tie means for those of you who are not familiar that first Corinthians 6 9 homosexuals the only way to Understand what

49:35

Paul meant by that was to recognize The meaning of that within the Pauline corpus and Paul's use of the

49:43

Greek septuagint to make his points throughout all of his writings If you say Paul didn't write those words, then you're no longer limited in that way and you can't define terms any longer

49:53

That's a bit of a problem. So we've already proven all that stuff. It's it's there. We just don't accept the argumentation and yet It's it's not there.

50:01

It's not explicit in Scripture if God would want us to believe such an important doctrine and that wasn't addressed papacy

50:08

Marian dogmas indulgences All fail that test all fail that test

50:15

I gave the argument from patristic silence that we don't see any early fathers Affirming what

50:21

Gavin is saying that Scripture is the only infallible rule of faith and you don't find early fathers

50:28

Doing what Rome would say that they would do in looking to the Bishop of Rome Why didn't why do we have a

50:34

Council of Nicaea? Why do we have a Council of Nicaea? Why didn't they just go to the

50:40

Bishop of Rome? Why wasn't the Bishop of Rome was the one known as the one who was defending the deity of Christ in the

50:46

Aryan resurgence. Oh Well We didn't even really get a citation like that from Augustine and I've addressed that Irenaeus was name -dropped.

50:56

I got nothing to work with there without a citation There aren't you know, they are authorities even if they can't send me to hell.

51:03

Well, they aren't actually spiritual authorities Yeah, I agree a church is gonna kick you out if you don't play by their rules

51:10

But so will any social club so would any human organization that I'm a part of the

51:15

Protestant Church Can't have Theological authority because a person is always free to say to the

51:21

Protestant Church. He belongs to well, they contradict the Bible So I'm going to a different church.

51:26

Okay, that's what I wanted to get to that's already good over the years many times

51:33

We have pointed out The epistemological inconsistency and incoherence of Roman Catholic apologists on this very issue

51:45

Rome wants to Ignore her divisions sort of hard to do right now

51:52

You know when you're when you're reading the you're reading the stuff from the Synod and synodality when when you really understand liberation theology when you when you realize how

52:03

Wildly progressivist Boston College is for example how wildly progressivist the

52:09

Jesuits are In comparison to well

52:14

Catholic apologetics Catholic apologetics does not represent Catholic scholarship

52:21

By and large at all. You look at the people that the Pope Francis has put on the papal biblical

52:28

Commission They don't do apologetics. Okay, they're not even close

52:35

Okay, they want to ignore all that and just have the United Ancient Catholic Church will ignore the doctrinal development will ignore all that stuff we are the one unit and then all those

52:48

Protestants out there and We will ignore the fact that the vast majority of the

52:54

Protestants we compare you to don't even believe in solo scripture They don't even believe in tota scripture.

53:02

They're not even trying to apply these things Here's something to remember

53:07

If you take the Protestant denominations that believe confess and seek to practice sola scriptura those denominations will have significantly greater unity then every group that says scripture plus an infallible authority

53:35

Now Catholics get really upset when you do this Because there's lots of groups to say scripture plus infallible authority

53:41

Jehovah's Witnesses Mormons, there's all sorts of you can't comparison. That's the point

53:48

They say they have scripture plus an infallible authority. They can't even get God, right? They can't even get close

53:57

Those of us who believe and practice sola scriptura We're Trinitarians We have the same gospel.

54:07

Where do we have differences? Um Ecclesiology, you know whether you're to have a session or whether the local church is an autonomous group

54:19

Yeah, we have our debates about baptism As to who's to be baptized and when just like you have an early church actually

54:29

Um, but in comparison on the key Definitional issues we have much more unanimity when we practice sola scriptura

54:38

Then you say when you have scripture plus infallible authority if you want to leave that aside

54:44

If you're just too offended to think that one through the reality is

54:49

That even if you don't do that the divisions that exist

54:55

Within Roman Catholicism are much wider Than the divisions that exist amongst believing

55:03

Protestants who practice sola scriptura There's no question about it

55:09

So they want to go well you can just go down the go down the road That's problem

55:18

It's astonishing to me that a Catholic apologist could stand in front of television cameras in light of what

55:24

Francis did when the bishop of That's responsible for Nancy Pelosi undercut that bishop's authority and disciplinary action by giving to Nancy Pelosi and President Biden and any other

55:50

Democrat that wants to bow at his feet Mass Don't sit there and and use this argument when your

56:02

Pope your Pope will give the

56:08

Eucharist to people who are responsible for making sure That the blood of innocent children continues to flow in the

56:17

United States of America Stop it Don't be a hypocrite in my church and I know this because Not all the time but 25 % of the time 20 % of the time

56:35

I give the instructions before the supper if I've preached then I'll give the instructions before the supper

56:42

So only a matter of weeks ago I preached two weeks in a row for the supper each time.

56:49

What did I do? You do not have to be a member of Apology of Church to partake of the

56:55

Lord's Supper however, we ask that you be a baptized believer in Jesus Christ and Not be under discipline from a like -minded

57:04

Believing church do not use our table to go around the discipline of your church

57:10

You need to deal with the discipline of your church So we seek to honor the discipline that other churches have

57:22

Are seeking to you know, you're an unrepentant you're not repent of your sin

57:28

You shouldn't partake the Lord's Supper we seek to honor that we seek to do that I'm not sure how that works

57:36

In Rome, but we saw how it works at the upper levels when Pope Francis knowing knowing absolutely knowing

57:47

That the bishop had told Nancy Pelosi do not present yourself for the mass

57:55

Absolutely knowing that purposely knowingly undercut that discipline. I don't know how

58:02

I don't know how anyone at a Roman Catholic Church Knows who's coming forward to receive the elements.

58:12

I mean, can't you just if you're a Catholic can't you just you know Visit another parish

58:19

Remember, this is the same Pope who's going nuts of burgers To suppress the

58:27

Latin mass as if it's some terrible horrible thing to have the

58:32

Latin mass and there's all sorts of Catholics that want to have the Latin mass and he says Nope, you can't have it and people who keep doing it end up getting kicked out of their positions

58:40

And so I'm just sitting here going You know, these seem to be less than consistent arguments

58:51

And remember and I'm sure Trent's gonna mention this When we decided to do sola scriptura, he said well if you want to go both directions, then

59:01

I'll do apostolic succession and I'm like apostolic succession

59:06

For the Roman Catholic apostolic succession is summed up in and embodied in the Bishop of Rome.

59:13

They won't defend the Bishop of Rome We had a debate set up in Sydney, Australia in 2019 with Tim Staples and We wanted to debate is

59:26

Pope Francis the infallible Vicar of Christ on earth. They canceled it They won't defend

59:32

Francis. They know they can't It's impossible so let's do something really nebulous, but there's all sorts of different understandings of it and no one can really define it and We don't have to actually flesh it out in the form of the

59:51

Bishop of Rome Francis Yeah, okay Gotta have gotta have the same standards here.

59:59

You can't have all sorts of different standards And so that's something to always keep in mind when you get into these conversations.

01:00:10

I don't know and I sort of doubt that We'll be able to do anything on Friday We'll see as far as the program is concerned because Tuesday of next week is when

01:00:25

Trent and I are supposed to be doing a conversation on Alibeth Stuckey on the differences between Roman Catholics and Protestants I don't know that that's going to be a debate or if it's just going to be a

01:00:38

Where does everybody stand on this this this and this and Just have you know a few minutes to Give a presentation and maybe interact.

01:00:47

I I don't know. I Haven't been told yet exactly how much interaction there's going to be or if it's just going to be let's talk about a wide variety of things and Be able to express differing positions knowing what the other side believes but Hopefully Yes Hopefully Monday That that's that's the first day that I can

01:01:21

See on the travel schedule Might be a good shot for doing another dividing line.

01:01:27

We will see Because I head down to Houston. I'll be at Houston so Afternoon programs should work out fine until we get to the debate days

01:01:36

And then maybe in the morning might might be able to do something. We'll see We'll see all that's dependent upon everything keeps working in the unit and Electricity is still working and you know, like I said yesterday we learned stuff

01:01:57

Yeah, anyway And there's big potholes between here and Dallas I'm sorry

01:02:08

Yes, yes rich rich wants me to to do what I need to do and that is to mention the travel fund the only reason that we can get where we're going and You know every night there's an

01:02:23

RV park Cost money, it's not super expensive. It's certainly less expensive than hotels.

01:02:29

I can guarantee you that much But we have that and yet Every about 280 miles or so.

01:02:37

I've got to Stick one of those big diesel hoses Into that thing and just watch it

01:02:45

When you when you do it in the diesel lines with the big diesel trucks, which is what we try to be doing most of the time

01:02:53

Man that thing moves fast if it was the old style some of you aren't old enough to remember the old style

01:03:01

Gas pumps that had the the mechanical stuff. I'm not sure those things would it doesn't

01:03:11

Just say wow, it would go really really fast it goes fast as it is believe me

01:03:18

But yeah diesel costs cost money and there's there's there's there's cost of all you make it all possible

01:03:24

The travel fund at a omen org will get us where we're going So we appreciate everyone who helps us do that and again prayers

01:03:34

For me and the the physical issues that I'm dealing with as we're getting ready to get on the road

01:03:40

Which will not make being on the road quite as enjoyable as as it might be otherwise

01:03:46

The Lord knows knows my body and he can fix it up if he wants to so pray toward that end

01:03:52

So we will see you from the mobile studio With the with the pretty

01:03:59

I don't have all the neat fun stuff behind me, but I have the pretty colors that rich still doesn't like and Everybody else does so that's good

01:04:10

And and I'll have all my coogies With me because it'll undoubtedly be significantly cooler there than it is here