November 15, 2024 Show with Dr. Jason Lisle on “The Importance of Genesis”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have an view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 15th day of November 2024.

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This is the first live program that we have done since before the election of Donald Trump to the presidency of the

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United States and before the victories that have been won by the

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Republican Party. Obviously we who are celebrating these things in the body of Christ have to do so with great caution.

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We have to always remind ourselves that neither President Trump nor the

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Republican Party are our Savior or Messiah. They have merely,

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I believe, been used by God to buy us more time here in the body of Christ to continue to labor on this planet and by his grace and mercy be used as instruments to bring about further change.

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There are many things, obviously, that we who are conservative and Christian have to rejoice over, but at the same time we are dismayed by the backpedaling of the stronger stance against abortion, better better known as infanticide, that was the position of the

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Republican Party not long ago. And there are other things that we regret, but at the same time we still thank

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God for the blessings that we believe will come through this new presidency and new additions to the different branches of government that are less hostile and hateful towards the body of Christ.

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So I'm sure that most of my listeners can be in large agreement with those statements.

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But yes, I have been not only battling illness off and on with congestive heart failure, and this was once again triggered by another battle with COVID, but thank

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God I am much closer to being in a state of full recovery than I was weeks ago.

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Also there have been technical difficulties that will be explained in further detail, one of which was, unbeknownst to me, when we switched off of using

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GoDaddy as a web host server. I did not know that an individual was involved in web hosting this program.

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I'm not even entirely sure what that means. I'm so ignorant with those things. But he happened to be somebody who believed that I needed to publicly apologize for publicly criticizing and bringing to light the satanic sins of anti -semitism and bigotry that have been rightly associated with certain figures identifying themselves as Reformed Christians.

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And believe me, folks, I am not talking about making that determination through the lenses of the woke movement or any other equally dangerous ideologies.

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But we will get to being more detailed on that. The program that I did in defense of my dear friend

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Tobias Riemenschneider, pastor of Evangelical Reformed Baptist Church of Frankfurt, Germany, is also a very close mutual friend of Dr.

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James R. White. That had to be temporarily taken down due to this person's serving as a web host for this program.

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Thanks be to God he is no longer involved in that capacity and that program that we recorded with Pastor Tobias is back up on the air.

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And we hope to never have such a bullying tactic against us again.

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Obviously, it could have been far worse. But all of these things will be revealed in full detail,

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God willing, in the days, weeks, and months ahead. But I'm so thrilled to have once again on this program

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Dr. Jason Lyle. Many of you will immediately recognize that name.

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He is a Christian astrophysicist, an author, conference speaker, and founder of Biblical Science Institute.

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And today he's going to be addressing his latest book, The Importance of Genesis. It's my honor and privilege to have you back on the program,

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Dr. Jason Lyle. Well, thanks for having me on, Chris. I appreciate it. And it's also a thrill to have as a co -host today, special co -host,

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Corey Gelbaugh, who is the school board president at RK Classical Academy of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and he's also pastor of Ruler of Kings Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

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It's great to have you serving as my co -host today, Pastor Corey. Hey, it's good to be here.

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I didn't know I was co -host, though. That's an honor. Well, I'm glad that you view it that way and not as some kind of a demotion, because it's not.

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And I was thrilled to be with you both on Veterans Day when

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Dr. Lyle was speaking at RK Classical Academy. It was so refreshing to see on a

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Monday night and on a Veterans Day a thoroughly packed house of attendees to hear

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Dr. Lyle speak. So let's further revving up my enthusiasm for today's interview.

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Well, first of all, Dr. Lyle, why don't you let our listeners know something about the

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Biblical Science Institute? We are a Christian ministry dedicated to showing people how the

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Bible lines up with, is compatible with, our understanding of science in so much as we understand science properly.

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There's this narrative that we hear that you can't be a Christian and also be rational, scientific, because science has disproved the

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Bible, particularly in matters of Genesis and creation, those kind of issues. And I find that ridiculous as a scientist because I know better.

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I know that the universe is the age the Bible says. There's plenty of evidence that confirms that.

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I know that biological evolution in the Darwinian sense is not true. And so what we do is we show people that the

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Bible is true, that you can trust it. It is in fact a necessary precondition for science to even be possible.

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That's something I kind of specialize in, is showing how science comes out of a Christian worldview, and therefore you can't do science consistently apart from a

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Christian worldview. That's not to say unbelievers can't do science, they just can't do it within, if their worldview were true, they wouldn't be able to do science.

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So there's an inconsistency there. And that's what we try to do at the Biblical Science Institute, and we do it in a way that is accessible, hopefully, to laymen.

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I'm not expecting anyone that visits the website to have degrees in science, but I also make the information rigorous enough that a scientist would would not be able to refute it if that scientist is on the other side of the issue.

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So that's what we try to do is the Biblical Science Institute is just to encourage Christians and challenge unbelievers that they need to become believers.

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And what is your website? The website is biblicalscienceinstitute .com.

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Okay, that should not be hard to remember. And if you could, also,

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Corey, let our listeners know both about the RK Classical Academy of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and ruler of King's Church in that same fine town where I call my home.

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Yeah, so RK is in its third year, and my wife and I started it when my daughter turned five and entered in kindergarten.

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And she was the only student for a while, and then we got, we ended up getting 40 our first year.

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Last year we had 80, this year we have, we're basically at capacity, a little over a hundred.

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And we were originally Logoschool. We changed our name to RK Classical Academy, so when

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I was on here before, it was probably going by Logoschool. So it's rkclassicalacademy .com.

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A -R -C -H -E. Yes. Dr. White would,

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I think, approve of that pronunciation, RK.

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Well, he pronounces the name of his own church now in a way that he does not approve of.

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He caved in, for years he was making fun of his dear friend

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Jeff Durbin, who is now one of his co -pastors, fellow pastors at Apologia Church, because they were mispronouncing that church, and it was allegedly, according to a

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New Testament Greek scholar like Dr. White, it was supposed to be pronounced Apologia Church, but James caved in when he became one of the fellow elders there, and has joined in on the mispronunciation.

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You know, sometimes you have to go with what sounds better.

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Based on historical reasons. Tell us about now Ruler of Kings Church.

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Yeah, so we started Ruler of Kings Church here in Carlisle.

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It would have been about four months ago, so we don't even have a website yet, but that should be any day now.

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It will be Rulerofkingschurch .com, and it's a CREC church, so that's the

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Moscow crew where that denomination started, and they also, you know, the ACCS, which is our affiliation for the school, they started that association also for classical

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Christian schools, and we found that as we grow, we need a spiritual oversight over the school to make sure that we don't stray from our mission, and so that's, you know, one of the missions of Ruler of Kings Church, but also just to share the gospel in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and win this town over to the glory of God.

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The more Reformed churches here, the better. Yes, and let's see, there are one, two, three, four, five that I'm aware of right now, and it's not a very big town.

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Five Reformed congregations. That's right. Including the one, the brand new one, where I am a member,

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Trinity Reformed Baptist Church, which meets at the

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Carlisle Baptist Church facilities on Walnut Bottom Road in Carlisle, pastored by Simon O'Maney, with our head deacon being

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Daniel Wolford, and you're going to be hearing commercials in the very near future for Trinity Reformed Baptist Church right here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, because they have already committed to be an annual sponsor of this broadcast.

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In addition, those ads will be joined by commercials for the financial institution where Daniel Wolford is the

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CEO. Oh, Lebanon Federal Credit Union in Lebanon, Pennsylvania has also already agreed to sponsor this show for a year to start with, and you'll be hearing those ads soon too.

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Well, I am so thrilled about this interview. As I've already said, if anybody has any questions for Dr.

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Jason Lyle, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

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As always, give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence.

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I'd like to ask you something that I forgot to ask you earlier on, Jason. What exactly is an astrophysicist?

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Well, basically, we study the universe, astro for stars, and then physics, how the universe works at a fundamental level.

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So basically, everything beyond the Earth lies within the realm of astrophysics. So it is a very large field, literally and figuratively, and I feel very honored to be able to study that field, and it's a lot of fun.

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And it is never to be confused with astrology, which involves the occult.

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But it's also somewhat different than the legitimate science of astronomy. Why don't you compare and contrast that?

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Yeah, well, astrology is when people try to draw conclusions about their lives based on the positions of the stars and when they were born, and that's not something that's biblical.

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It's anti -biblical. The heathens look to heaven and are terrified. We don't. We honor

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God in the way we study the universe. Astrophysics and astronomy are very closely related. Astrophysics would be a combination of physics and astronomy.

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The theory behind getting a PhD in astrophysics is you can then go out and do either one. You could get a job in physics, you could get a job in astronomy.

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But the fact is there's a lot of overlap. Any astronomer would have to have taken a number of physics classes in order to be able to do astronomy.

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So there's quite a bit of overlap, but just a little bit more emphasis on the math, a little bit more emphasis on the physics in an astrophysics degree.

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By the way, I have to highlight one of my favorite moments from your recent presentation at RK Classical Academy on Veterans Day.

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You were talking about the importance of some of your beliefs that are a part of the framework of astrophysicist beliefs when under the lordship of Christ.

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And you were talking about those things that are essential to salvation and those that are not.

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And one of the things that you mentioned that was not an essential to go into heaven was a belief in gravity.

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But you said, but if you do deny gravity, you will likely make it to heaven before I do.

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I don't know if that was off the top of your head, but that was a classic.

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So the book that we are discussing today, The Importance of Genesis.

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Obviously, most of us who are evangelicals and have any interest in science and even more specifically in the realm of creation and even more specifically in the realm of young earth creationism, we have all gotten to know and love

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Ken Ham, who was actually a colleague of yours. And he is well known for tracing every single important fact that we know in the scriptures back to Genesis.

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So there are obviously a lot of things in print on the shelves of Christian libraries and studies.

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What was the approach you were taking in adding this new volume to what is already an area that seems to be vastly delved into?

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Well, yeah, I mean, certainly Ken Ham has dealt with this issue and he's dealt with it very well. I've learned a lot from Ken Ham.

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I appreciate his contribution to the furtherance of God's kingdom on earth. I think the world's better off because Ken Ham.

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And I just wanted to put my own spin on it. There's a certain way that I teach, and I've found a lot of people really appreciate that, just kind of the way

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I organize the topics and so on. And so I thought, you know, if I wrote my own book on this, the way it's organized might be helpful to people in terms of understanding the history.

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I've gone into the history of it a little bit more in terms of historically, how did this happen? How is it that a church,

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I mean, there was a time when, of course, if you were a Christian, you believe that God created in six days. There's just no question about that, with very few exceptions.

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That was the position of the leaders of the church throughout history. And how did that change?

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And I thought, well, it might be interesting to see historically how that came about. So there's actually some chapters where I've actually organized it historically.

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How did this happen? How did we change from believing God's word to saying, well, yeah,

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I believe God's word, but it doesn't mean what it says. The compromise that began really in the 1700s in earnest, where they began debating the age of the earth, but they still were solid on creation.

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Otherwise, they still thought that God created organisms. It's just, they thought that maybe he did it progressively over millions of years.

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And that was because there were certain people who were trying to argue from geology that the rock layers were deposited gradually, not in a worldwide flood.

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And so that caused people to question, was there a worldwide flood? Was it a tranquil flood that didn't do much and so on?

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And my point is, if we had dealt with that issue biblically at the start, we would not have to deal with these other issues.

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Darwinian evolution would never have been promoted, at least within the church, because you can't have evolution without the millions of years.

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People need the millions of years for evolution to sound reasonable. And so I pointed out historically, the millions of years came first, the idea of deep time, the earth being much older than the biblical time scale, the

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Bible indicates a few thousand years ago that God created and in six days. But if you give up on that, then that opens the door for further compromise, and that opens the door for further compromise and so on.

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And so now we have to deal with all kinds of issues, not just evolution, but certain interpretations of scripture that are not sound in order to allow for these ideas that are not biblical.

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And so you get the framework hypothesis and this idea that Genesis is similar to the ancient

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Near Eastern literature, which I had never wrote about before this book. So that's something I wanted to hit because we hear that a lot these days.

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It's one of the latest attacks on Genesis. So it's a historical perspective, and I think it's a very easy read as well.

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And that's something too, I didn't want this to be something that was highly technical in nature.

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I'm trying to write for laymen, I'm trying to write for Joe Christian, I'm a Christian, but I want to know how to better defend my faith.

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And hopefully the way I've organized things will make that very easy to understand. Well, before I go to a listener question that has already come in from Moundville, Alabama, I would like to have

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Corey Gelbaugh have an opportunity to slip in a question of his own before we go to Moundville.

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Oh, I was asking Jason questions for the two days that he was here nonstop. I still have more.

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Does it have to be about the book or can I ask anything? Well, let's try to stick to topic anyway.

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So the presentation that you did at the school is the book in presentation form then?

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Yeah, the one that I did for the Veterans Day for the evening. Yeah, I spoke on astronomy to the students in the morning.

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But yeah, it's basically that presentation. I just do it a different way because the way I speak is a little different from the way

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I write. There's certain things you can write, you can't say, and vice versa. It's just a different medium. But yeah, it's basically about why

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Genesis is important, why it's important to take it as literal history, why it matters to the Christian worldview. Yeah, a lot of people were laughing the whole time.

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It was really funny, the way that you presented it. I tried to put some humor in there, so that's good.

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Just anecdotally, I have an uncle who is a radiologist and has never really thought about these things.

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He's pretty sure that you turned him into a young creationist from that talk, just by going through the text in Genesis.

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Well, that's encouraging. Thank you for sharing that with me. That's why we're here. We want to encourage people that the

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Bible's true from the beginning and they can believe it. You know, if I'm not mistaken, I think R .C. Sproul, years before he went home to the

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Lord, became a young earth creationist as well, did he not? I think that's so.

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He kind of waffled a little bit on that issue. But I do think that there were at least times later in his ministry where he seemed to be younger.

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I don't know, if he held that exactly at the end, he did seem to kind of waffle a little bit on that, but I think that's probably true.

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And Corey, did you have something to add to your question? Yeah, I want to reserve time to ask him about his new research later, but I guess for the understanding of Genesis, which of those arguments do you hear the most often from theologians who are not young earth creationists to refute, to justify their belief?

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The most common one is the day -age view, the idea that the days were not literal days, but vast ages, millions of years each.

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And they'll try to justify that by pointing out that the Hebrew word for day, which is yom, can be used in certain sections of Scripture and is used in certain sections of Scripture to mean a period of time in general rather than 24 -hour day.

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And that is true, but it's primarily in the poetic sections, and it's being used non -literally.

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When it's part of a prepositional phrase like the day of the Lord, that can mean a period of time longer than 24 hours.

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But my point is context determines meaning, and the context of the word in Genesis precludes any other meaning than an earth rotation, an ordinary literal day.

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And in fact, it's defined as such. The evening and the morning were the first day, and there was evening and morning a second day, evening and morning a third day, and so on, all the way up to the sixth day, the seventh day.

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So the fact that each of the creation days is bound by an evening and morning, which are always literal,

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Erev and Bokheir are always literal in Scripture, always an evening and a morning. And so that limits it to ordinary days.

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That's why I spent the most time on that in my presentation, because I think it's the most common view.

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It doesn't work, and that's why we're starting to come up with some of these new views, the framework idea and the

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Near Eastern literature idea, and so on. So I dealt with those as well in the book, but I hit that hard, the fact that there's no doubt that the author of Genesis, Moses, intended for us to understand that God made in six days and rested one.

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And that is the pattern for our work week, which is what Exodus 20 .11 specifically teaches. And who is the gentleman who escapes my mind right now?

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His name does. He's either from the UK or from Australia or New Zealand, who is like their champion, at least it seems, in the realm of video, defending that view, that old earth view.

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One of the most prominent advocates of that view, he's actually in California, is

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Hugh Ross. And I've debated him on a number of occasions. I'm sure there are others, but... Yeah, I'm not speaking of Hugh Ross.

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I can't think of the gentleman's name. I know Hugh Ross. In fact, I have a very dear friend, in spite of our very strong opposition to each other on this very view, he is an old earther.

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I've been able to maintain a very loving friendship with this brother,

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Ken Samples, for decades. He is one of my longest -lasting Christian friends, and he is on staff with Reasons to Believe with Hugh Ross, although the science end is not his particular area of expertise, nor does he write or speak on that area a lot.

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But as you were saying with gravity, jokingly, in your presentation at RK Classical Academy, this is an area, although I'm not saying it's unimportant,

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I'm not trying to trivialize it in any way, shape, or form, salvation does not rest upon your belief in a young earth, am

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I right? Yeah, and I'm not aware of anyone who believes that it is.

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I say that because sometimes I have heard certain old earthers mischaracterize our view and say, well, you know, folks like Lyle or Ken Ham, they think you need to believe in six days to be saved.

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Not only do we not believe that, I don't know anyone who believes that. So that is not a common view.

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I would say that six days is necessary for a proper understanding of salvation, and in particular, the fact that death came into the world as a result of Adam's sin, because death is the penalty for sin.

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That's rather important to an understanding of the gospel, because if death is not the penalty for sin, if fossils are hundreds of millions of years old, then that means death was around for millions of years before Adam sinned, in fact, millions of years before he even existed.

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And so that would mean that death is not the penalty for sin. It's not something that was introduced into the world by Adam's sin.

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And if death is not the penalty for sin, then why did Jesus even have to die on the cross? And so it makes nonsense of the gospel.

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So that's why I say it's an important issue. But praise God, he doesn't require us to have perfect theology to be saved.

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And so a person can have a horrible inconsistency in their thinking on the one hand and think, yeah, Jesus died for my sins.

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On the other hand, death is normal and it's always existed and it's not the penalty for sin. They can live with that inconsistency and still be saved by God's grace, because he doesn't require us to have theological perfection.

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That being said, I do think out of gratitude for God for saving us, we ought to get our theology as right as possible.

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So I challenge people to try to be consistent in their theology and to believe what the Bible actually teaches and to do it consistently.

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Okay, we are going to go to our first break. And when we return, we will ask a question that has been submitted by Ted in Moundville, Alabama, who happens to be someone who is identifying himself in his question as someone who leans old earth.

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But we'll hear Ted's question when we return. And if you want to join Ted, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages. I'm Pastor Keith Allen of Linbrook Baptist Church, a

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Christ -centered gospel -driven church looking to spread the gospel in the southwest portion of Long Island, New York, and play our role in fulfilling the

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Great Commission, supporting and sending for the spread of the gospel to the ends of the earth. We're delighted to be a part of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron radio advertising family.

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At Linbrook Baptist Church, we believe the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the inspired word of God, inherent in the original writings, complete as the revelation of God's will for salvation and the supreme and final authority in all matters to which they speak.

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We believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. This salvation is based upon the sovereign grace of God, was purchased by Christ on the cross, and is received through faith alone, apart from any human merit, works, or ritual.

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Salvation in Christ also results in righteous living, good works, and appropriate respect and concern to all who bear

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God's image. If you live near Linbrook, Long Island, or if you're just passing through on the

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Lord's Day, we'd love to have you come and join us in worship. For details, visit linbrookbaptist .org.

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That's l -y -n -brookbaptist .org. This is Pastor Keith Allen of Linbrook Baptist Church reminding you that by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves.

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It is the gift of God, not a result of words, so that no one may boast.

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May the Lord bless you in the knowledge of himself. I'm Pastor Bill Shishko of The Haven, an

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, we will get 100 % of the profits from that sale.

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So please go to royaldiadem .com today. Even if you're not ready to make your purchase today, go to that website today to start the ball rolling to further ensure that we will get 100 % of the profits from that sale and mention

36:58

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. That's royaldiadem .com. Also, before I forget,

37:05

I just want to make sure that our listeners know, especially those who are in New Jersey or are able to get there this

37:15

Sunday, November 17th, my guest today, Dr. Jason Lyle, will be speaking at 10 a .m.

37:24

on the importance of Genesis at the Calvary Chapel of Mercer County in Ewing Township, New Jersey.

37:33

That's 10 a .m. And if you want more details on that church, their website is ccmercer .com,

37:46

and that's m -e -r -c -e -r dot com, ccmercer .com.

37:52

And you could also call them at 609 -882 -2029.

37:58

609 -882 -2029. Later that evening, this

38:05

Sunday, Dr. Lyle will also be speaking at the

38:10

Calvary Chapel of Middlesex, New Jersey at 6 p .m.

38:16

and 7 p .m. And if you want more details on the

38:23

Calvary Chapel of Middlesex, New Jersey, their website is ccmiddlesex .com,

38:30

ccmiddlesex .com. And their phone number is 732 -2000 -5457, 732 -200,

38:42

I'm sorry, not 2000, 732 -200 -5457. So, we hope that as many of you as possible will attend one or both of those events in New Jersey.

38:56

The Calvary Chapel folks really love Jason Lyle, it's very obvious. Okay, we have our listener in Moundville, Alabama, Ted.

39:07

Recently, I listened to a debate between Dr. Lyle and Hugh Ross. As someone who leans old earth,

39:15

I was a bit disappointed that, in my estimation, Dr. Lyle handily won the debate.

39:22

I don't have the science background to have assessed the debate on its scientific merits, but as a retired university instructor of speech and debate,

39:38

I believe that Dr. Lyle dominated by way of style and technique. Having listened to several of the debates between these two men over the years,

39:48

I'm wondering how to account for the sudden surge of rhetorical acumen.

39:56

Did Dr. Lyle attend some sort of debate boot camp? As his recent scientific research bolstered his confidence, in short, what happened?

40:12

Maybe he just convinced you that you were wrong, Ted, but anyway, go ahead.

40:19

Well, thank you, Ted, very much for that. I appreciate that. No, I haven't taken any classes on debate.

40:25

I never practiced debate or anything like that. I am confident in my position, mainly because it's what the

40:33

Scriptures teach, I believe. I believe that when you do hermeneutics properly, when you apply the

40:38

Bible's own principles for interpretation—and the Bible does give us principles for its own interpretation, and I believe when you apply those consistently, you can end up with no other view than that God created the heaven, the earth, and all that's in them in six days and rested one day as a pattern for us, according to Exodus 20, verses 8 through 11, and that this was a few thousand years ago, from adding up the genealogies, which

41:02

I've done, along with some other information when certain decrees were issued. Can't get an exact date on it, but it wouldn't be millions or billions of years.

41:09

And then the big issue, too, is death before sin. That's the Achilles heel,

41:15

I think, of the older position, if you're trying to mix it with Christianity. Now, if you want to say, well, you know,

41:21

I don't care about the Bible, then that maybe is not an issue. But for the Christian, death is the penalty for sin.

41:29

It's something that was introduced into a world, a world that was originally very good, a world where God saw everything he'd made and it was very good, and that was ruined because God gave

41:39

Adam freedom to rebel or obey, and Adam rebelled and everything under his dominion, which was the earth, was cursed as a result of that.

41:49

So that's really what keeps me, I would say, in the so -called young earth.

41:55

I mean, the earth isn't young, it's thousands of years old, but I guess it's young compared to the alternative view that is required for evolution to sound feasible.

42:04

But I thank you for your compliment. Again, I haven't taken any classes on speech or debate, but I do have confidence in my position.

42:12

And I'm very familiar with Hugh Ross's position, too, and I don't think it stands up to scrutiny. I've written about his position in my book,

42:20

Understanding Genesis. I actually took three chapters and dedicated them to looking at what

42:25

Hugh Ross has said, and then showing it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. And I focused three chapters on Hugh Ross, and I hope he takes that as a compliment, because I think he's the best articulator of the old earth position.

42:41

And so I figure I need to take the best promoter of that position, and if that doesn't stand up to scrutiny, then

42:47

I don't need to deal with the hundreds that are not as coherent as Hugh. So I hope he takes it that way.

42:53

I like Hugh. I just think he's mistaken on his theology, but he's a nice guy. And, Ted, if you can remember the name of the individual that I was trying to remember earlier, who still escapes my memory.

43:09

He's either British or from Australia or New Zealand. I cannot tell the accents apart sometimes.

43:17

But he is very frequently seen in video defending the day age theory,

43:25

I believe. And it's just driving me nuts trying to remember his name. He's not an obscure person, probably not as well known as Hugh Ross.

43:36

But if you happen to know, since you're leaning old earth, let us know.

43:44

Well, I believe it sounded like I was interrupting Corey Gilbaugh earlier, who had some other question he wanted to fire at you.

43:53

Am I mistaken on that? I did have another thing.

44:01

So, yeah, I was going to say that what I appreciated a lot about your presentation was that you made the point that things can be important that aren't salvation issues.

44:19

Because I get that a lot at the school from people who sort of don't see the activity of the school as being quote -unquote, kingdom work, because you're not strictly evangelized.

44:40

And so, do you hear that a lot? And what do you think is the work of the school?

44:48

I mean, there's a lot of unregenerate kids there, and there's a lot of Baptists. There's a lot of unbaptized kids.

44:54

But I know you go to a lot of schools, and you said that's one of your favorite, that that is your favorite place to go.

45:03

What do you see yourself as doing when you're going there? Well, what I try to do, especially with youngsters, is to inculcate a way of thinking that is

45:12

Christ -like. That's the point of education, really. It's not just to learn facts, because you can—I mean, which facts do you learn?

45:23

Which ones are the most important? Is it important to know about the composition of rocks on Mars? Is it important to know mathematical truth?

45:31

What's important? The most important thing is that you know Christ, is that you learn how to live in a way that's pleasing to our

45:39

Creator and our Savior, that you have a saving relationship with Christ. And so, what

45:45

I try to do with youngsters is get them thinking biblically, get them to have a high view of Scripture, get them excited about Scripture by showing how these interesting things in the world that we see in science and so on line up with what the

45:58

Bible teaches. And I was very impressed with your students. I got to speak with them the next day on Tuesday, and they asked great questions, and I can tell that comes because they have really good teachers.

46:09

So, I highly recommend the RK Classical Academy. I think it's a great school. I wish more schools were like that.

46:16

I'm not a fan of public education, because public education does not teach children to think in a way that's consistent with the mind of God.

46:23

And I would say that's the entire purpose of education, is to learn to think in a way that's consistent with the mind of God. People say, what about evangelism?

46:30

Well, if you do that, you're doing evangelism. If you get people to think in a Christ -like way, that's going to positively affect their lives.

46:37

Of course, when they are presented with the gospel clearly, if they're already thinking in a Christ -like fashion, they're going to say, yeah,

46:43

I love Jesus. I want to receive him as my Lord and Savior. And because they're thinking biblically and they're thinking logically, they can articulate that position to others.

46:52

And no matter who comes up to them and says, no, the Bible's not true, they'll be equipped to deal with that.

46:58

The end goal, I mean, I'm an apologist. The end goal of apologetics is always the salvation of the person.

47:05

Now, it's ultimately up to God whether he saves him or not. You understand, it's my job to make a defense, but I want to be winsome in the way that I make it.

47:13

I want to be logical and correct and truthful in the way that I make my argument. So evangelism is an aspect of apologetics, and it's really the main aspect of apologetics.

47:23

But you need to understand, the gospel doesn't make sense to people who believe in millions of years of evolution, because the gospel's all about Jesus dying on the cross to pay for our sins.

47:34

Well, why do you need to die to pay for sins? That makes no sense if evolution's true. If life came about by death, death's a good thing.

47:41

It's only in a world where God created a perfect world, where we rebelled against him and death entered the world as the right punishment for sin.

47:50

That's why we need a Savior. That's why we need someone to take our place on the cross. And so, yeah, salvation is always our goal.

47:57

Yes, we want to evangelize, but we need to lay down the groundwork in order for the gospel to make sense.

48:04

And that's where the church, by and large—and there are individual exceptions—but the church, by and large, has not done well on that issue.

48:11

And so we now live in a world where most people reject Genesis, and they don't understand the gospel. It doesn't make any sense to them.

48:17

And so what I try to do is come and prepare the ground and say, now let me show you the background information you need to understand the gospel.

48:25

Let's clear out some of the falsehoods, some of the misconceptions you have, so that you can properly understand the gospel. And we've seen a tremendous amount of success.

48:33

We've seen God change a lot of people's hearts, and a lot of times he uses the material that I present to do it, and I'm very grateful for that.

48:42

Okay, we have a listener in Flanders, Suffolk County, Long Island. Bjorn wants to know, is it true that the old earth position is even dominated amongst those who profess to be creationists and Christian in the realm of science, especially in the field of geology?

49:09

Yes, I would say that is true. Geology is dominated by a philosophy of uniformitarianism, which is the belief that present rates and conditions are indicative of past rates and conditions.

49:21

The present is the key to the past, is the mantra of many geologists. That is not a biblical philosophy, but because it is so prevalent in academia, many

49:30

Christians who enter academia end up kind of absorbing that philosophy through osmosis, not because of rational reflection, not because they've considered the scriptures, because scriptures are contrary to that.

49:43

The scriptures teach that there was a catastrophe in the past, a worldwide flood that would have erosion rates and deposition rates that are far higher than they are today.

49:55

And so the Bible denies uniformitarianism. It predicts in 2 Peter 3 that people will, you know, in the last days, they would embrace this philosophy that all things continue as they were from the beginning, that they're willingly forget, they're deliberately ignorant that there was this worldwide flood.

50:11

So the Bible predicted that. But it's something that even many Christians in academia have incorporated into their worldview, and that's really unfortunate.

50:19

So what I like to do is I like to gently come alongside my brothers and sisters in Christ and say, well, have you considered that this view that you've kind of absorbed, it puts death before sin, and that would mean death's not the penalty for sin.

50:30

So why did Jesus die on the cross? A lot of them haven't thought about that. And then, of course, I'm a scientist, so I'm happy to go through the scientific issues as well and say, look, we know rocks can be deposited quickly.

50:42

Sediment layers don't take millions of years to form. Mount St. Helens deposited all kinds of new sediment layers very quickly.

50:47

It was one piddly little volcano. Canyons don't need millions of years to form. Mount St. Helens cut a canyon 140th the scale of the

50:53

Grand Canyon in a matter of hours. So I'm equipped with the science as well, and that's kind of, again, that's my specialty.

51:00

Not everybody has to be an expert in science, but we all need to be able to say, look, here's what the Bible says, and we need to respectfully challenge our brothers and sisters in Christ who are not following Scripture.

51:11

And that's the golden rule, because I would want them to do that for me. If there's some area where I'm not consistent biblically,

51:17

I want to be corrected on that. Now, how do you respond to those who have made the claim, and I have heard it with my own ears, especially when

51:28

I've interviewed young earth creationists like yourself, and I get negative feedback from old earthers.

51:36

I have been presented with the argument that the very reason such an important study of science like geology, the very reason it is dominated by old earthers, is an overwhelming proof of the truthfulness, the truth claims of old earth creationism.

51:59

How do you respond to that? Yeah, I would definitely take issue with that. I might even challenge to debate them on that issue, because it's not there.

52:08

One example of that would be C14. In fact, we find C14 in specimens that are allegedly very ancient.

52:15

C14 is a variety of carbon that has two extra neutrons, which makes it unstable. It will decay into nitrogen with a half -life of about 5 ,700 years.

52:25

And so when you find it in stuff that's supposed to be millions of years old, like chunks of coal, coal beds are supposed to be hundreds of millions of years old, but every chunk we've tested has

52:32

C14 in it, and it would be gone. They say, there's some recharging mechanism, but they can't come up with one, because these coal beds are deposited deep in the earth that are well -insulated from cosmic rays, which is the normal way

52:45

C14 is created. That's not going to work. They say, well, maybe other radioactive elements are recharging them. No, we've done the calculation on that.

52:52

You need 13 ,000 times more radioactive elements for that to be remotely feasible. That's documented in the rate book, and I've done some calculations myself on that.

53:00

So the fact that we find all kinds of indicators of youth on the earth with the earth's magnetic field decay,

53:06

C14, things like that, indicates that the earth's not millions of years old. So it's certainly not because of evidence that people believe in millions of years.

53:13

It's because of a philosophy of uniformitarianism. In fact, I would challenge them with this. Every argument for an old earth presupposes, at least to some extent, uniformitarianism.

53:24

Every one. And I would say that's an unbiblical philosophy, the idea that present rates and conditions are indicative of past rates and conditions, because a worldwide flood would upset that.

53:33

So you show me an argument for an old earth that's not based on the philosophy of uniformitarianism, and then we'll have something to talk about.

53:40

But I have yet to see one. We have to go to our midway break, folks. Please be patient with us. Send in your questions to chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

53:49

Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Don't go away. We'll be right back. It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world.

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Here's Joe Reilly, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

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Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland, going back to 2005.

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One of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

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Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely to thank, since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

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Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

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Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr.

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Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

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Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the Triune God that continues in eternity.

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For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com.

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That's HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com, or call 678 -954 -7831.

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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invinio and thanks for listening. If you love

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Patafuoco demonstrating the reliability of scripture. To advance the cause of the gospel, they created a beautiful, perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611

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Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

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01:03:42

But today I want to introduce you to my senior pastor Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.

01:03:51

Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

01:04:02

In the film Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt

01:04:08

God's pleasure when he ran. He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God.

01:04:14

He sensed that same God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.

01:04:22

That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a Savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.

01:04:34

I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the

01:04:41

Bronx in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church visit nhpbc .com.

01:04:50

That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672.

01:04:59

That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word, and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

01:05:18

God bless you. Welcome back, and before I return to my conversation with Dr.

01:05:35

Jason Lyle and also with our co -host Corey Gelbaugh, I just have some important announcements to make.

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Folks, if you really love this show and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, I'm urging you please go to ironsharpensironradio .com,

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So, that's chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put I Need a Church in the subject line.

01:08:00

Well, we are now back with our guest today,

01:08:05

Dr. Jason Lyle, Christian astrophysicist, and also my co -host,

01:08:12

Corey Gelbaugh, who is with RK Classical Academy and also

01:08:19

Ruler of Kings Church, both in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. If you do have a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:08:28

chrisarnson at gmail .com. By the way, the answer to my question earlier to Ted in Moundville, Alabama, in regard to that old earther, who is actually from Northern Ireland originally, he's a mathematician, as it turns out,

01:08:59

John Lennox is his name. And John Lennox is somebody who's become very popular at defending the day -age theory.

01:09:14

Assuming, Dr. Lyle, you're familiar with John Lennox. I am, yes.

01:09:20

He takes the same position as Hugh Ross, and therefore, it has the same weaknesses as Hugh Ross's position. So, I consider him refuted in the same literature where I refuted

01:09:28

Hugh. Where you refuted me? Hugh, no.

01:09:34

Hugh. Oh, and by the way, that answer not only came from Ted in Moundville, Alabama, but also

01:09:50

Lou in Sharpsburg, Georgia, both chimed in with that answer. And I forgot to mention that both

01:09:57

Ted in Moundville, Alabama, and Bjorn in Flanders, Long Island, they both won a free copy of The Importance of Genesis by our guest today,

01:10:10

Jason Lyle. And one of the most critical areas of theology that, well, there's a couple of them, that really hinge on one's view of the age of the earth.

01:10:31

When you get the age of the earth wrong, you're really getting something or some things a lot more seriously wrong.

01:10:40

And correct me if I'm wrong, but are they not the existence of death before the fall?

01:10:47

And also, it seems that Old Earthers inevitably, I don't know if they all do, but I think a great number of them, even if they claim to be evangelical

01:11:00

Christian and have a high view of Scripture, tend to view that Adam and Eve have ancestors of their own that are humanoid in some way, ape -like, etc.

01:11:19

But if you could, delve into those two areas. Yeah, the first one, just about all

01:11:28

Old Earth creationists would accept the idea of death existing before human beings existed, and therefore before Adam sinned.

01:11:37

And we've already talked about that. That is an enormous theological problem because it means death is not the penalty for sin, and it makes the cross pointless.

01:11:45

Why did Jesus have to die on the cross if death's not the penalty for sin? With regard to the other issue, it really depends, and I don't want to misrepresent any

01:11:55

Old Earth creationists. I think some of them do believe that Adam and Eve were supernaturally created. Others, especially those who not only believe in the millions of years, but an evolutionary background, there are theistic evolutionists that believe that Adam and Eve had hominid ancestors.

01:12:12

Some of them believe that Adam and Eve's ancestors were non -human primates.

01:12:19

And then at some point along that chain of evolution, God implanted souls into Adam and Eve, and they were the first humans.

01:12:27

So there are those who have that view as well. It really depends. And again, I would say, once you give up the

01:12:33

Bible being your ultimate standard, anything is game. You can come up with sort of any view that you want.

01:12:40

So I think the real issue there, though, is death being the penalty for sin. And it's a can of worms because if you say, yes, but I know the

01:12:49

Bible seems to teach that God made his creation very good in six days, but boy, most scientists don't say that.

01:12:57

Well, the same Bible teaches a virgin birth of Jesus Christ, that Jesus turned water into wine, walked on water, called the storm, raised the dead, raised himself from the dead.

01:13:06

The same Bible teaches all those things. And if you say, yes, but I'm not going to believe in the six days because most scientists say that's not possible.

01:13:15

I got news for you. Most scientists would say virgin birth is not possible. Turning water into wine is not possible. Resurrection from the dead is not possible.

01:13:22

And of course, Christ's resurrection from the dead, that is a salvation issue. The Bible says if Christ is not raised, you're still in your sins, your faith is in vain.

01:13:31

So that's a salvation issue. And some people would say, oh, but I'm not going to go that far. I believe those things are true.

01:13:37

But see, it's inconsistent. Are you going to allow secularists who don't believe the

01:13:42

Bible to tell you how you should interpret it, to tell you what really happened in the past so that you can reinterpret the sections of the

01:13:48

Bible that are not conducive to secular thinking? And again, some people would say, oh, but those miracles of Christ, those are miracles.

01:13:56

And so they're not constrained by science. I would agree with that. I would just point out that the creation of the universe was also a miracle.

01:14:03

It was a one -time extraordinary manifestation of God's power not to be repeated.

01:14:09

And so if we're going to say miracles are not constrained by what the secularists say, I would agree with that.

01:14:14

And I would say creation's a miracle. And so you shouldn't rely on secularists who were not around when the universe was created to tell you how

01:14:20

God actually created it. Let God tell you how He created it as He has done in His Word. Okay, we have a listener in Bath, Maine.

01:14:33

Stanford says, one of the greatest stains against the legacy of Tim Keller is the fact that he promoted

01:14:47

Biologos. Can you explain to our listeners how serious the flaws promoted by that organization are?

01:14:56

Yeah, so the Biologos organization, they promote basically theistic evolution and old earth creationism, mainly theistic evolution.

01:15:08

And that's their purpose. I think Francis Collins is involved with them. And so they're trying to promote a Christian worldview, but without the

01:15:15

Christian foundation that's present in Genesis. I have taken on some of their articles that refuted some of their articles.

01:15:21

There's at least one more on there that I haven't gotten around to refuting, but I'm going to, where they try to refute my distant starlight argument rather unsuccessfully.

01:15:31

And I need to write a refutation of that. But yeah, they're trying to tell you how to take secular opinions about origins and then merge them with the

01:15:41

Bible. Read the Bible in such a way that it can accommodate these secular opinions. And once you do that, there's no end to that.

01:15:47

You can do that with anything. If you want to believe that abortion's okay, you can find a way to reread the scriptures.

01:15:55

The Pharisees and Sadducees were masterful at that. During Christ's earthly ministry, they had their traditions and they had their mechanisms by which they would reinterpret the scriptures to match their traditions.

01:16:07

And Jesus would have none of it. See the way that he responds in Matthew chapter 15, when they had insisted that there's a certain ritual way of washing your hands that the disciples didn't do.

01:16:18

Well, that's not in the Bible, that's not their way of doing it. And Jesus called them on it.

01:16:23

And he pointed out that they were invalidating God's word for the sake of their tradition.

01:16:30

And so I would say that those that biologos, whether they're Christians or not, it's probably a mix.

01:16:36

I don't know their heart, but regardless of whether they are trying to promote

01:16:44

Christ, I think what they're doing is they're invalidating the word of God for the sake of their tradition. And their tradition is the secular view of origins.

01:16:53

And again, I'm a scientist, and so I find it ridiculous on scientific grounds that people would hold to millions of years of evolution.

01:16:59

The evidence isn't there. But more importantly, whether you know science or not, God does know how he created the universe.

01:17:06

He made it. And he's given us the basic details of that in his word, and you can trust that.

01:17:12

God does not lie. He doesn't change his mind. He is God, and what he says goes.

01:17:17

And you can have confidence in that. Now, how can it even be scientifically possible to prove anything is a million or more years old?

01:17:30

That just seems out of the realm of how science is conducted. Yeah, it is.

01:17:37

It is. Science is the study of the systematic normal operation of the universe.

01:17:44

I would say from a Christian perspective, it's the study of the way God normally upholds his creation, and that's why we can do it, because God upholds his creation in a consistent way.

01:17:52

But he's not required to do that. It's just that he does it most of the time and for our benefit, and he's promised certain patterns in nature, like the day and night cycle, and we can count on those.

01:18:01

And that's what science is about. It's about discovering these patterns that God has placed in nature. And it requires testability and repeatability.

01:18:10

I mean, most students learn, at least by middle school, the scientific method that it involves.

01:18:15

There's an experiment you do. You can observe the results of that. You can't observe the past.

01:18:21

You can't. You can't go back in time and make an observation on something in the past. And so science is not well -equipped to deal with matters of the past.

01:18:30

It's better at dealing with the way things work today. It's very good at that. It's very good about putting people on the moon and making computers work, because those are things we can test today in the present.

01:18:39

When you begin speculating on the past, you're now doing sort of pseudo history. You're not doing science anymore.

01:18:45

Now, I'll grant there's nothing wrong with trying to use the tools of science to make a guess about something that happened in the past.

01:18:52

There's nothing wrong with that. But you need to accept the limitations of that. You're probably not even able to prove it in any definitive way, at least not by scientific means, because it's gone.

01:19:00

You can't repeat or experiment on the past. Again, some people say, but wait a minute. You know, if I pick up a fossil, that's the past.

01:19:06

No, it's not. It's the present. Or you wouldn't be holding it. You say, but it formed in the past. Well, yes, but you don't know how.

01:19:12

You don't know when. Oh, but we can do radiometric dating. And I'm happy to talk about that. But what you're doing is you're looking at the present.

01:19:19

You're looking at present isotope ratios. And you're making some guesses about how those decayed in the past, usually under the philosophy of uniformitarianism, that past rates and conditions are like present rates and conditions.

01:19:31

And that's a philosophy I would reject. Again, I'll point out that every argument for millions of years and evolution, for that matter, presupposes uniformitarianism, which is the idea that the present is the key to the past.

01:19:43

And that is a philosophy that is unbiblical. I would reject it. And so when people try to use those arguments to disprove

01:19:51

Scripture, they're reasoning in a circle. They've already decided the Scriptures are wrong by embracing uniformitarianism.

01:19:57

And then they do their argument and conclude that the Bible's wrong, which is the very assumption they started with. I have yet to hear a logical, sound argument for millions of years or evolution.

01:20:12

Okay, we have the aforementioned Lou in Sharpsburg, Georgia, who was one of our listeners who revealed the identity of John Lennox.

01:20:25

Lou says, are the folks from the intelligent design movement a mixed bag of religious beliefs?

01:20:33

And are there any young Earthers that are a part of it? So in other words, he's asking if there are young Earthers, especially if they are making a name for themselves, that we should still avoid gleaning wisdom from because they're dangerous in other ways.

01:20:55

Okay, well, to answer Lou's question, yes and yes. The intelligent design movement or any collection of people that try to argue, usually using a fairly specific strategy, that there is an intelligent designer to life.

01:21:09

And that would include folks who are Christians. It could include old

01:21:15

Earthers. It could include young Earthers. It could include folks who are not Christians at all, but nonetheless believe that there's an intelligence behind life, whether it's a god or whether it's aliens or something like that.

01:21:24

So it really is a mixed bag. Yes, there are young Earth creationists in the intelligent design movement.

01:21:29

Many of those believe that as a matter of strategy, it's best to first try to convince someone that there is a designer and then perhaps later on convince them that that's the biblical god and that Jesus is that god.

01:21:42

And so they do it as a matter of strategy. Now, I happen to disagree with that strategy, but just as a matter of fact, yes, there are young Earth creationists within that movement.

01:21:50

There's a couple that I know specifically, but they may not want me to mention their names because they may not want to be out of the closet as a young Earth creationist.

01:21:57

But yes, there are young Earth creationists in that movement. With regard to gleaning wisdom from them, I'm the sort of person that if you're mature in Christ, you can glean wisdom from almost anyone.

01:22:08

I mean, I could read an article by Richard Dawkins. If he happens to be talking about some specific nuance of biology,

01:22:15

I could learn something from that while rejecting his atheism, while rejecting his evolutionism. And so there are actually some books that are produced by the

01:22:25

Discovery Institute, which is an intelligent design movement organization. There are some books that I've gleaned wisdom from.

01:22:31

I think Michael Behe's book, he's an evolutionist, but I think his book, Darwin's Black Box, is brilliant.

01:22:38

I mean, there's some brilliant stuff in there. And I'd recommend the book. I'd give a caveat. He's not a biblical, he's not a creationist at all.

01:22:44

He believes in some form of evolution. He just doesn't think mutations and natural selection can do it. And he has devastating arguments in his book against the idea of mutations and natural selection being able to drive life on Earth.

01:22:56

So I could recommend, I can't recommend the man in its entirety, but I could recommend that book with that caveat.

01:23:02

So you just have to be careful when you're learning from people that don't have a fully biblical worldview.

01:23:08

You have to be cautious and think about how their worldview will affect their conclusions, their understanding of the evidence.

01:23:15

By the way, Stanford in Bath, Maine, and also Lew in Sharpsburg, Georgia, you have also both won a free copy of The Importance of Genesis.

01:23:24

Make sure I have your mailing addresses so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

01:23:33

can ship out your free books to you. And thanks for the excellent questions.

01:23:40

We have Landry in Euless, Texas, who wants to know,

01:23:47

I believe many people are being deceived when they come to the conclusion that the

01:23:55

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints, also known as the Mormons, are creationists. Isn't it true that they actually are not and believe that God merely reorganized matter that has existed as long as He has?

01:24:13

Well, yeah, they certainly don't believe in the literal details of Genesis.

01:24:19

I mean, they might claim to, but yeah, their God was once a man, and they believe that they will become gods if they do certain things and that they'll get their own planet to rule over.

01:24:29

So Mormonism, it's a polytheistic religion. It's a very polytheistic religion. There are potentially hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of gods that either are or will be in that view.

01:24:42

But yeah, the main issue is their conception of God is very different from the Christian God. And part of the problem is

01:24:47

Mormons will tend to use some of the same language as Christians, some of the same words, but they'll pour different meaning into those words.

01:24:54

And so yeah, they'll say, yeah, we believe that Jesus is God. Well, but not in the same way that we do.

01:25:00

They don't believe that Jesus is the one God and that the Father is the one God and that the Holy Spirit is the one

01:25:05

God, and there's one God, but there are three persons and so on. They don't believe in the Trinity. And so that's one of the issues with Mormonism.

01:25:11

It is a cult in the sense that it professes to be Christian in a sense, and yet denies essential aspects of the

01:25:20

Christian worldview. Yeah, really strange cult. Yeah. Yeah, they are deceptive in that sometimes they'll claim to be monotheistic because they only worship

01:25:33

God the Father here on this earth, but they do believe that there are actual gods that are countless in number, an infinite number of gods.

01:25:46

And I'm assuming that it might be accurate to call them henotheists rather than polytheists because they do believe that there's some kind of hierarchy involved.

01:25:56

They're not all equal in weight or something like that. Am I making sense there? Yes. Yeah.

01:26:03

And I've even heard, you know, there's an issue too of what the prominent church leaders say and what their average congregation says, because there's some

01:26:11

Mormons I think that genuinely think they're monotheistic. And you have to say, no, go back and ask your leader about, you know, the gods and things like that.

01:26:19

And they find out, oh, I guess we're really not, not in the same way that Christians are anyway. Now, what do you think are the most common errors of evangelical

01:26:31

Christians who are young -earth advocates like yourself, who don't have the knowledge that you do, especially in the realm of science?

01:26:40

What are the most common mistakes that we make when we enter into conversation with, it could be non -Christians who are even at the level of mocking our understanding of science, or they could be old -earth creationists who are doing the same thing for different reasons.

01:27:01

What are the mistakes that we on the young -earth side are most typically making in your experience, in your observation?

01:27:10

Okay, well, there are a number. One of them is to mock back, and that's a problem. There are some young -earth creationists who are, they're kind of jerks.

01:27:20

I hate to say that. Well, I am a Reformed Baptist, and the older I get, the more

01:27:27

I am sadly discovering that there are many professing to be confessionally

01:27:35

Reformed Baptists who are absolute raving idiots. But anyway, we all have our embarrassing advocates.

01:27:41

We have those people who advocate our position, but do so in a way that's just bad and not biblical.

01:27:48

Another error is to buy into the narrative. The secularists have maintained this narrative that it's science versus the

01:27:57

Bible, and I have heard some well -intentioned Christians say, well, I'm on the side of the Bible, then, not all that science stuff.

01:28:04

No, no, wait a minute. You've bought into a false dichotomy. It's not science versus the Bible. It's one person's religion, evolution, versus another.

01:28:12

The science, frankly, is on our side. Science comes out of Christian thinking. So that kind of error and reasoning, that's when you buy into that bifurcation fallacy, that's an example of that.

01:28:24

Not knowing how to answer. When evolutionists commit a logical fallacy, they'll say, you know, you're just a

01:28:31

Christian because you were raised in the church or something like that, which is a circumstantial ad hominem fallacy.

01:28:36

A lot of Christians don't know how to answer that, so not knowing how to answer those questions. Another example of buying into the narrative, a lot of times evolutionists will say, evolution versus creationism.

01:28:49

And by the way, there's nothing wrong with the word creationism, but it should be evolution versus creation, or evolutionism versus creationism.

01:28:57

When they say evolution versus creationism, it subtly implies that creation is just a belief, whereas evolution, you know, that's just established.

01:29:05

And I've heard Christians buy into that and then repeat it back. That's a mistake.

01:29:11

It's not something we should do. There are certain hoaxes that come around every now and then. There's a famous painting that has these camels in it that are, there's a little bit of artistic license there.

01:29:23

They have very long necks. And some people, some well -intentioned creationists have said, those are dinosaurs. Well, they're not.

01:29:28

They don't have a long tail like a sauropod. And frankly, the author of the painting says they're camels. So we have documentation on that.

01:29:35

Don't get me wrong. There are genuine artifacts that appear to be dinosaurs living at the same time as people, but I've seen ones that are not good that are used.

01:29:45

Some certain sensationalistic claims, like we find these 12 foot tall giant humans, fossils of them.

01:29:51

Well, we don't. I mean, I've seen them on Facebook, but I've also seen the ones, the originals that are not

01:29:57

Photoshop, and they're not there. So certain bad arguments that we tend to use, and probably the worst one of all is

01:30:04

I've heard creationists say that the earth's flat and that the secularists are all trying to persuade us that it's round when it's really flat.

01:30:11

And it's this big conspiracy that for some reason all the governments can agree on, even though they can't agree on anything else. There's this treaty that you can't go to Antarctica, which is not true.

01:30:21

It's just such a silly argument. And boy, it makes us all look bad. And I just wish that we would all use our minds and think properly from the

01:30:29

Scripture. So we actually have some articles refuting some of those bad arguments that sometimes creationists, well -intentioned, sometimes they'll use those bad arguments.

01:30:37

We would recommend avoiding those. There's plenty of good arguments. There's the transcendental argument for Christianity, which

01:30:43

I think is bulletproof. And I would recommend Christians stick to that, stick to what we know. And if you don't know something, don't repeat it.

01:30:50

Make sure you check it out first. Great. And before I go to a question, right before we go to our final break,

01:31:03

I'd like to ask Corey Gilbaugh again if he has a question for you. Yeah.

01:31:09

So I'd like to ask about your new research. For those who don't know,

01:31:19

Dr. Lyle has looked at the James Webb telescope data and come to some very interesting conclusions.

01:31:26

And I joked with him when he was visiting the school that he is the type of guy who's going to be famous once he's dead.

01:31:34

Because I just think that right now, the secular world don't want to acknowledge that he even exists when he puts things like this out.

01:31:48

Because then they'd have to contend with his arguments. I've got people in my own church that don't want to admit

01:31:54

I exist. So I'm only kidding. Go ahead. I'm sorry. So on his website,

01:32:01

Biblical Science Institute, he put out his, well, he linked his research paper that he published in Answers in Genesis Research Journal, but also a accompanying layman description of what the research paper says, which was very helpful for me.

01:32:21

And essentially, you're saying, Dr. Lyle, that the universe is not expanding.

01:32:28

And could you tell me how big a deal that would be if we all just cared about getting to the truth and everybody read your research and judged it on its merits?

01:32:42

How big of a revolution in cosmology would this be? Well, it's big because the

01:32:49

Big Bang is predicated on the assumption that the universe is expanding, and not just the universe. I would say the universe is expanding, but the fabric of space doesn't expand with it.

01:32:57

And that comes from some observations that I've been able to gather from the

01:33:04

James Webb Space Telescope, which has been a remarkable instrument of wonderful success. And it turns out that the farthest galaxies that we're seeing do not look as big as they should look if space is expanding.

01:33:15

If the fabric of space expands, it should create a magnification effect over very large distances where distant objects should look five to ten times larger than they really are.

01:33:27

And so there's a certain point where galaxies should start, you know, as you look farther and farther away, stuff looks smaller.

01:33:33

But if space is expanding at a certain distance, it'll start to look bigger again after a certain distance.

01:33:38

It's a little counterintuitive, but it's an effect that I learned about in grad school. And when these first James Webb Space Telescope images came in of distant galaxies, they looked tiny.

01:33:47

And I wasn't expecting that. I was expecting they would start to look larger again after a certain, after a distance corresponding to a redshift of 1 .6.

01:33:54

They have to start to look bigger, and they don't. And so I thought, I wonder what would happen if I assumed that the fabric of space is not expanding.

01:34:02

How big should they look? And I did the calculations, and I found out they look exactly as big as they are if the fabric of space is not expanding.

01:34:09

And I used a number of different estimates from different astronomers who had measured the angular sizes of these galaxies and made some plots.

01:34:17

And sure enough, if the fabric of space is expanding, the galaxies should look five to ten times bigger than they do, but they don't.

01:34:24

If the fabric of space is not expanding, they're just the right size. And the implications of that, one, it means the

01:34:31

Big Bang cannot have happened. The Big Bang requires the fabric of space to expand so that when you run the movie backwards, all the galaxies and all the atoms go back to a point.

01:34:40

But that wouldn't happen if space is static and the galaxies are just moving through it, which is what

01:34:46

I now think is the case. So it refutes the Big Bang. It's very exciting research, and it paves the way for a new creation -based cosmology.

01:34:54

And so I've actually made some predictions about what the James Webb Space Telescope is going to find in the future as it looks out deeper into space.

01:35:01

I've made some predictions about the apparent sizes of these galaxies that will further either confirm my model or refute it, but I think it'll confirm it.

01:35:09

Now, you used a very key word here. You said you now believe. How recent is this change in your belief, and how long did you cling to the legitimacy of the

01:35:21

Big Bang theory, if at all, or at least to an expanding universe? Okay, well,

01:35:27

I have not believed in the Big Bang since I became a consistent younger creationist, so I haven't believed that in a long time.

01:35:33

But although the Big Bang requires the fabric of space to expand, the expansion of space does not require a

01:35:40

Big Bang. And so I just assumed that space was expanding, but that God had made it a few thousand years ago big, and he's expanded it a little bit since then.

01:35:49

And that's called the Friedman -Lemaître -Robertson -Walker metric, the idea that the fabric of space is expanding. So I always embraced that.

01:35:56

I just didn't believe it started in the Big Bang. But now I think the Friedman -Lemaître -Robertson -Walker metric is wrong, because it describes an expanding fabric of space, and I would say that space is not expanding.

01:36:07

And that is a very recent belief. If you'd asked me three or four years ago, I'd have said, well, of course, the

01:36:12

Friedman -Lemaître -Robertson -Walker metric is right. It's a natural solution to Einstein's equations, which it is, but I now have learned there's other solutions as well that don't require that.

01:36:22

And so it's only been in the last two years that I've changed my position on that. I don't think the Friedman -Lemaître -Robertson -Walker metric is right.

01:36:29

I think this fabric of space is not exactly static, but it's more or less static on cosmic scales, and galaxies are moving through it, because it fits the data, and it disallows a

01:36:38

Big Bang. And so it's a very recent discovery. It was in 2022 that we got those first images from the

01:36:44

James Webb Space Telescope. So this is a very recent discovery. Are you still a lone voice advocating this new position?

01:36:52

There have been a few other secular astronomers, believe it or not, that are questioning the Friedman -Lemaître -Robertson -Walker metric, but they haven't jumped on my alternative.

01:37:00

I'm calling it the Doppler model, but they have jumped on a third alternative. There's a resurrection of what's called the tired light model, because it also denies the

01:37:08

Friedman -Lemaître -Robertson -Walker metric, but it makes different predictions. It predicted a blurring effect that we don't see.

01:37:14

So as far as I know, the Doppler model, which I proposed, is the only one that is completely consistent with all the data that we have, and I don't know that a lot of people have jumped on that yet.

01:37:24

But people are starting to question the Big Bang because of this devastating data from the James Webb Space Telescope.

01:37:30

Well, we have to go to our final break, and once again, if you have a question, submit it now, or forever hold your peace.

01:37:37

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Give us your first name, at least, city and state and country of residence. Don't go away.

01:37:43

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Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church. We are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone.

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Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image - bearing prophets, priests, and kings.

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We teach families to worship together as families. Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea.

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We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline, and exalt

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Christ. This is Pastor David Reis of Puritan Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona.

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Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth.

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01:43:05

I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

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Every Christian who's serious about the Reformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the

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Dr. Moorcraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

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For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com.

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For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com,

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heritagepresbyterianchurch .com. Please tell Dr. Moorcraft and the saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr.

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Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sent you. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and the

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Church in Friendship in Hockley, Texas, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

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Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew

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01:46:13

Hi, this is John Samson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the

01:46:22

Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

01:46:34

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

01:46:42

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised

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Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

01:46:59

I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

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where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com.

01:47:32

I'm Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

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I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

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Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jansen and Christopher McDowell.

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

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Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

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I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

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For more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

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That's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711.

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That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

01:48:57

Welcome back. Please, folks, never forget that Iron Sharpens Iron radio is sponsored in part by the law firm of Buttafuoco and Associates.

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If you are the victim of a very serious injury or medical malpractice anywhere in the

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United States, please call my very dear friend, longtime friend since the early 1990s,

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Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, at 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, or visit his website, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com,

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1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com. Please make sure you tell Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, that you heard about his law firm from Chris Arntzen of Iron Sharpens Iron radio.

01:49:49

Also, I want to remind you that my guest today, Dr. Jason Lyle, will be speaking at two different Calvary Chapel congregations in New Jersey this

01:50:01

Sunday. For the morning service, he will be at Calvary Chapel of Mercer County.

01:50:08

The phone number there is 609 -882 -2029, 609 -882 -2029, and the website is ccmercer .com,

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and Mercer is M -E -R -C -E -R, ccmercer .com. For the two evening services, he will be at Calvary Chapel of Middlesex, New Jersey.

01:50:32

That phone number is 732 -200 -5457, 732 -200 -5457, and the website is ccmiddlesex .com,

01:50:44

ccmiddlesex .com. And we do have a listener, Hudson, in Delslo, West Virginia.

01:50:53

Hudson says, Please don't be insulted, but I was a bit disappointed by a previous interview you conducted with Chris Arntzen about the issue of aliens.

01:51:04

While I do not believe that there are beings from other planets, I do believe that the film and other photographic evidence of spacecrafts and things associated with them that are unknown to human technology might be pointing to supernatural experiences that the eyewitnesses are encountering.

01:51:29

Why do you so rule out the possibility that these could be supernatural from the dark side?

01:51:39

Chris Well, we don't see any instances in Scripture of spiritual beings using technology, and it wouldn't make sense that they could, because spiritual beings are non -physical.

01:51:49

They can't ordinarily interact with matter except by God's decree. Now, we do know that they can interact in terms of our thoughts.

01:51:58

We know that you can contempt. We know that there are certain circumstances under which demons can possess either a person or animals.

01:52:07

But we never see demons or any spiritual beings like angels building things.

01:52:12

In fact, the only time we see angelic beings acting physically is when

01:52:18

God gives them a body, which he occasionally does. We see some examples, particularly in the

01:52:24

Old Testament, of God giving temporary bodies to angels so that they can interact with human beings, but that would seem to be by God's power and not by their own.

01:52:33

The Bible says that angels are ministering spirits, according to Hebrews chapter 1, and Jesus says that spirits do not have flesh and bone.

01:52:42

That's one of the things he said at the resurrection when the disciples were wondering this. Well, it's a spirit. Jesus corrected them and said a spirit does not have flesh and bone, which, of course, he has.

01:52:52

And so that was the proof that he was not a spirit. He was not an angelic being, but he had actually genuinely rose from the dead.

01:52:58

And we know that Jesus would not make a bad argument. So I don't believe that demons can manifest physically.

01:53:04

I think the only time—we've never seen scripture demons manifesting physically. We see them tempting. We see them inhabiting humans or animals under certain circumstances.

01:53:14

The only spiritual beings we see given a physical body are angels, and that appears to be by God's decree, because God alone has the power of creation.

01:53:23

He alone can create bodies. Angels can't do that. What do you make of Matthew chapter 24, verse 24?

01:53:31

For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will provide great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

01:53:40

I mean, in the days of the actual autographs of scripture being written, the technology didn't exist to be a vehicle for the kinds of false signs we may be witnessing today.

01:53:57

So how do you respond to that? Well, false signs have been—they were recorded in scripture as well.

01:54:06

Remember the magicians of the Pharaoh. They could perform false signs. They apparently make serpents.

01:54:13

Oh, sure. I meant the advancement of those things in our modern era. Yeah, but my point is we don't see angels or demons interacting physically with things at all.

01:54:26

Technology is physical. Things like cars, whether it's a horse and buggy or a modern vehicle, we don't see angels interacting with those things because they're spirits, and so they can't move around atoms like we can.

01:54:38

We have muscles and limbs and so on. And so my best understanding of the scriptures is that demons don't do that.

01:54:46

They're in the spiritual world, and their main access to the physical world is through a spirit -body unity like ourselves, when they can tempt us or, in certain cases, they can possess a human being.

01:54:59

Obviously, they can't possess a Christian because we're already inhabited by the Holy Spirit. But those are the main things that we see angelic beings, spiritual beings do in scripture.

01:55:08

Of course, God is a spiritual being. He can do what he wants because he controls the entire universe. But I don't see any evidence from scripture of angels or demons building machines, and they potentially could have done that stuff.

01:55:21

I mean, they're 6 ,000 years old now. They could potentially have had incredible technology if that's something they could do, if that's something they could build.

01:55:29

But that seems to be unique to physical beings like ourselves. We have an immaterial spirit, but we also have a physical body that can manipulate matter, and that's what allows us to develop technology.

01:55:39

Spirits, as far as I can tell, scripturally, spirits can't do that. Now, what do you or how do you respond to not only scientists in the field of aerospace and aviation and even pilots, experienced pilots who have seen these things or have claimed to have seen these things?

01:55:58

And to add on to that, perhaps they're not actual physical machinery and aircraft, but just appearing to be so if it was going to be a deception by the demonic realm.

01:56:17

Yeah, but there are a lot of things out there that people don't understand, and a lot of them, I do know what they are.

01:56:23

I mean, there are a lot of things. There's certain, and I don't claim to know all of them, but there's certain footage that I've seen of pilots saying, wow, look at that UFO.

01:56:30

And I'm like, yeah, I know what that, and the way it turns, that's because the camera's turning. That's an artifact. There are certain things like balloons that are released,

01:56:38

Mylar balloons that have been seen by pilots, and they think that's a UFO. Well, it's a Mylar balloon. It's released from cruise ships, and they tend to find these along the paths of cruise ships, so it makes sense.

01:56:48

So there's a lot of stuff like that, that because I specialize in looking at the sky, that's my area of expertise.

01:56:56

I spend a lot of time outside at night. I've seen a lot of cool stuff, and because I study that, for the most part,

01:57:01

I know what it is, but somebody who had not studied that wouldn't necessarily know what it is. To them, it's a UFO, but I don't think we can then jump to the conclusion, therefore, it's technology, but you don't know that it's technology.

01:57:12

There's some weird phenomena like ball lightning. It is really strange, and people who have seen it said, man, it's the weirdest thing, and we don't fully understand how all of it works, but we do know that it happens, and it's a natural phenomenon.

01:57:25

The other thing to remember is with things that are definitely technological in origin, well, human beings have made some amazing things.

01:57:34

Human beings have built things that are like flying saucers that can actually fly, and those have been around since like the 50s, so we do know how to build some of these things, and if people see that, it wouldn't surprise me that that's what it is, but I don't think we should jump to the conclusion.

01:57:47

I don't know what that is, therefore, aliens. I think that's a huge leap, and so that's the main point that I want to get across.

01:57:53

There's a lot of stuff out there that's natural. There's a lot of stuff out there that's man -made, and a given human being doesn't necessarily know what all that is.

01:58:02

So, in other words, you are ruling out that what people are seeing, it is impossible for that to come about through human technology.

01:58:15

Well, that's what I think some people are claiming. I'm claiming that human beings have been intelligent since creation, and there may be some technology that some people have developed that others don't know about, and there's also natural phenomenon that a lot of people are not familiar with, and any of those, if you don't know what it is, you can draw incorrect conclusions.

01:58:34

My point is we don't have enough data. I'm a scientist. I'd like to have more data to be able to draw conclusions.

01:58:41

People see something that looks strange to them, and they begin drawing conclusions without having enough information. My point is there's a lot of strange stuff out there, and so don't jump to conclusions.

01:58:50

And the website for the Biblical Science Institute is biblicalscienceinstitute .com.

01:58:57

Thank you so much, Dr. Lyle, for being such a wonderful guest, and thank you, Corey Gilball, for being a wonderful co -host.

01:59:04

I want you all to have a blessed, safe, happy, and joyful weekend and Lord's Day, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater