Cultish: What is Christian Science?

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All right, welcome ladies and gentlemen back to cultish entering the kingdom of the cults

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My name is Jeremiah Roberts. I am here once again with super sleuth Andrew the super sleuth of the show is good to have you with us and we are here with Tanner Johnsrud and how are you doing my friend?

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I'm doing very well. How are you? Good, man. Good so we're excited to have you on and You had reached out to us a couple of months ago

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And I'm glad we finally got to connect so let's just jump into it A lot of people have messaged us and as well and I've wanted to talk about Christian science

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Mary Baker Eddie and I'm excited I feel like Andrew both of us are just gonna be fly flies in the wall here because if I'm if I'm truly honest

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We both you and I don't really know a whole lot about Christian science. We know it's one of the cults in the category

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Walter Martin here put in his volume This is the sixth volume by the way that just came out a kingdom of the cults so he has a big section and they're on Christian science, but let's just jump into what you just talk a little bit

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Tanner just about your background how You said you you're from your family is fifth generation

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Just tell us a little bit just about what it was like being in Christian science and we're not where really all started for you sure, so I like you said my family was fifth generation

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Christian Zionist. I have Needs to sixth generation and So Christian science goes back in my family pretty much back to the days of the beginning my grandmother's teacher was

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Christian science teacher was taught by Mary Baker Eddie. I and Christian sciences is what

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I grew up with. I went to preschools and to a preschool a middle school and a boarding school in high school for Christian scientists and Every summer

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I went to summer camp for Christian scientists. So that was the world that I that I lived and breathed and And Christian science was

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Was all that I knew And For me

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I when I was in college I Had what's called the

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Christian science class instruction which is a Training preparation to become what's called a

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Christian science practitioner, which is a a healer In the

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Christian science religion, and so I The day I graduated from college.

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I began full -time as a Christian science practitioner and and I did that for over 15 years

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Almost 10 of which I lived in Boston, which is where the world headquarters so Christian sciences and Did that for almost 15 years until the day that my wife and I both came to faith in Christ So we'll get into that a little bit yeah so for me growing in in Christian science

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We always heard the The jokes, okay, you don't believe in doctors

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You know, what would you do if and you know, somebody wrote in my yearbook like three pages of a long

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Joking scenario, you know, what would you do if this horrible thing happened to you?

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Would you still pray, you know? and I was just absolutely convinced that Christian science was true that that Christian science was the real meaning of the

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Bible and And for so many of us Who are in Christian science?

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We don't really have exposure. I mean you have friends who are not Christian scientists, but you don't really have exposure to to biblical

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Christianity and and the way that you Just go through through your life

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You assume that this is what the Bible teaches that this is what And This is what is true and it's unimaginable

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That it could could be wrong Yeah, it's like the ultimate point of reference There's not really anything else in which like to contrast it by as I'm like, for example like this volume here

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I mean Walter Martin goes over a lot of the teachings of Mary Baker Eddie will jump into maybe to some of the theology and her worldviews with any

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Contrast that with scripture and like one of the base best ways for us to learn as Christians is to take a look at These different cults these unbelieving worldviews and contrast that with what the

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Bible says But with you when you're just through an end that we always talk about this when you grow up in an infrastructure

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Where you're only taught that one way is the only way just with our series We did on Jehovah's Witnesses and you're taught to believe the way the

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Watchtower says to believe That just you just assume that without without really second -guessing anything.

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Oh sure, absolutely you You assume it and it's it's what your parents have believed and your grandparents and your great -grandparents

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It's it's unimaginable that there could be any other way yeah,

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I obviously know everybody else in the world Doesn't believe what the way you believe but they're all wrong

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So You mentioned talking about the Christian science worldview and I Think kind of the best way to get a glimpse of Christian science is to compare it with the

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Christian worldview So I just wanted to kind of look at The Christian worldview in terms of creation fall

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Redemption and restoration and compare that with how Christian science views these things so in Christianity there's a good a

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Good trinitarian God who's created everything in the world and he calls it good

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And this is described in Genesis 1 and 2 and this creation. This is the creation that we see and experience every day

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Yeah, this is the world that God has made and And the world is

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God Initially made it in Genesis 1 and 2 Dwell in perfect peace and joy in the presence of God now in Christian science

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God did not make the material world The material world isn't real only

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Genesis 1 is true and Genesis 2 is a myth and And pretty much everything that speaks of God as Lord or speaks of Jehovah Jehovah is

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Is not the true God The true God is Elohim in Genesis 1.

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Okay, and Genesis 2 is a counterfeit God So just real quickly, so it'd be different from Gnosticism in the sense that Gnosticism believes that there is the material

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But the material is bad and it's like and it's evil and in there and therefore they and always interpreted

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Who Christ was and it was the whole idea of the incarnation of who Jesus was was a stumbling block

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For people who are Gnostics, especially even in the first century those those who do not believe that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh

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But in this sense what you're saying is that Christian science then would believe that there's really there's nothing material

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So right in a sense like right now we're recording on a set. We've got we're here for our flesh and bone bodies

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We've got Walter Barnes King of the Colts book made out of paper We've got all our microphones and all are set up here

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So all this material that we are looking at that's we to say it's tangible to them

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That would be that's all an illusion in our minds or what would be the Christian mind? What's how would you say like a

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Christian science person view just the nature of reality and in the material world? Is that sure all that's an illusion?

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It sounds almost like it's Buddhist in a sense You know, there are a lot of similarities and a lot of similarities with Gnosticism though Christian scientists would deny both of that those statements

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Everything that you see is the counterfeit of a true spiritual idea that exists in the mind of God You and and me and the trees outside These are all spiritual ideas in the divine mind in in the mind of God and The material world is a counterfeit of that It is

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Yeah, if you Remember hearing of about Plato talking about the theory of the of the cave

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That there's shadows on a wall in in this cave cast by a light outside and and those shadows are kind of the dull representation of something which is real and true and That is how

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Christian scientists tend to view that view the world in a very platonic or neoplatonic ways

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In In Christian science

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God is referred to as father mother. They see

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God as both father and mother and And they have What they refer to as seven synonyms for God life truth love principle mind soul spirit, which are

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Which kind of sum up God for most Christian scientists They wouldn't think of God as person

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Nobody would talk about a personal relationship with God God is is

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More than the principle governing all of creation and and it's the divine mind and Man is made perfect By this divine mind and is still perfect.

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We just don't understand that. Mm -hmm So in Christianity Adam and Eve rejected

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God's good rule over them. They rebelled and that sin has consequences for all of us We've all sinned we're all rebels against God's rule over us.

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We've all contributed to just deep brokenness in this world And the consequences of our rebellion are physical and relational spiritual death but in Christian science

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They say Genesis 1 is true. Genesis 2 and 3 is a myth and Adam is a myth

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And the problem isn't Adam's sin per se but it's the whole thought that he was made from the dust that he was material yeah, and Adam was put into a deep sleep, which indicates what they would call a hypnotized state of thought and All of the problems of sin and disease and death which come as a result

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Of this hypnotized state of thought and people often call it the Adam dream So the problem with Adam eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil wasn't that it disobeyed

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God's command And trying to be like a god, but it was trying to obtain knowledge from the material senses so in in Christianity man's big problem is sin, but in Christian science, the big problem is a mesmerized belief a hypnotized belief in a material existence

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But we aren't material we aren't fallen sinners we're spiritual and perfect and And because we're spiritual and perfect and all that really exists are

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Is divine mind and its ideas? Then anything that Mary Baker Eddie didn't call good

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Chiefly sin disease death matter. Those can't be real. They aren't real and So we are all

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In this world trying to deal with this this unreal illusion Essentially, right.

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So so so Tanner what it sounds like to me is there's like a highly developed philosophy, right and And it sounds like it differs extremely from from the

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Bible So I you were saying earlier that when you grow when you were growing up you you knew it was true and like this was

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The right way, you know to believe and understand the Bible But it sounds like there's almost two different standards, right?

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So, where did this philosophy come from? Where did where did it develop? Because if we're taking

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Genesis 2 and 3 is a myth and now we're adding all of these different things to the

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Bible We see that it's in conflict. So how was it growing up in the

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Christian scientist? Realm, did you have another standard to read alongside the Bible so you could actually interpret it correctly?

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Right. So you have the Bible And science and health with key to the scriptures.

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Okay, I'm very big ready and You read those together every day and you read selections

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From the Bible and from science and health that are put together by an anonymous committee in Boston Every week and and those selections are read in the

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Sunday services and And There's no preaching. It's just reading those those selections that you've read all week and From from the

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Bible you might get part of a verse or or disjointed

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Parts of verses and that those are paired together with passages from science and health

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And And you read those in conjunction and you wouldn't you wouldn't read the Bible alone on its own terms

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Yeah, she called this book science and health with key to the scriptures gotcha, you know, it is the key to the scriptures which enables you to understand the

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Bible and You know all the poor Christians out there. They don't have the key

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But Christian science alone furnishes the key in order to understand it Yeah, so it's all the secret knowledge that goes back you have to have this the

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Bible or do you have this the special now is Plus this in order to like that's the lens in which need to read through and understand and interpret the

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Bible is through this lens of Mary Baker Baker Eddie had what I'm just kind of curious about too is that if we want to just jump into the origins of The of where Christian science started.

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So what I found fascinating is that She Pretty much said she's but I was looking at the beginning of Kingdom of the

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Colts We're just kind of skimming through the section on Christian science and basically she was born in New Hampshire but it was right around in the early 1800s and It's right around the time.

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Honestly what I found fascinating to Joseph Smith jr. Right when Mormonism started So just talk just about Mary Baker Eddie talk about just about how what it was like her lot

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Just talk about her life what people need to know about her sure and what what

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I'm curious about too Is that what was the worldviews and influences that? Made her what she was and what was the even like the religious at an atmosphere at the 1800s because I know

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For example in the 1800s with in Palm Pond in New York with Joseph Smith There is all the superstition going on.

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There's there's all this especially There's all sorts of just interesting spirituality going on the early 1800s, but just Oh, yeah, so just talk just let's just jump into the world of Mary Baker Eddie because we're all flies in the wall here

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We want to learn about her. So you just go ahead and just give us the inside scoop of where it all started sure, so she was born in 1821 in New Hampshire and grew up in a

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Calvinist household and She grew up just as as More menacing began and kind of the burnt what they call the burned over district where there had been a lot of revival

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And Attempts at revival, but people had had left the faith.

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So Mary Baker Eddie was operating in In New England that had departed from its historical

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Protestant roots So even though Even though Christian scientists understand her her dad to be a staunch

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Calvinist I have I have some questions about about how

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Calvinistic he he was but From from various reports

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Various interviews that were done with people who knew her as a child From her earliest days she was involved in In the occult that she was involved really and yeah, yeah

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That she was a Practicing medium and And moved in a lot of spiritualistic and occult circles

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We we definitely see that as as time goes on for her just kind of a kind of brief overview

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During the first 20 years or so. She she was there in in New Hampshire.

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She got married to a man 15 years older than her and they moved down to Down to the

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Carolinas He died she said of yellow fever all the newspaper reports say it's something entirely different Anyway, she comes back up to New England and She ends up Sometime later following a man by the name of Phineas Quimby.

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Mm -hmm and Phineas Quimby was a

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Mesmerist who was a mental healer. He believed that Essentially through the through the power of suggestion you could bring about healing in in another person and And Mary Baker Eddie was enthralled by his teachings and She she studied on under him and and began to Want to to heal others the way he had taught her to heal and so she

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Yeah, she would go around saying Quimby made me promise to teach this to other people before I die

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And and so she was doing that in the early 1860s According to According to the first edition of science and health and the third edition and and her earlier writings

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She discovered Christian science in 1864 while she was with Quimby In later years

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The Allegation shall we say he came forward that Mary Baker Eddie had plagiarized

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Quimby and From that point on she revised the origin story of Christian science

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She revised it to saying that she was healed Of a fall in the ice in February 1866 and Every Christian scientist has heard this story a thousand times.

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She fell on the ice in 1866 and And She opened her

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Bible three days later saw a healing of Jesus and was instantly healed

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And this is a point of profound revelation. She later told people that she saw heaven Now this was this was the moment of revelation and she was instantly healed

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Now she did fall on the ice. That is that is for sure two weeks later She wrote to us to a student of Quimby's saying

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I'm in miserable pain I Need help Asking asking him to heal her

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She wanted to bring a lawsuit against the city saying that That she had suffered

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Irreparable damages as a result of falling on the ice and for the first 17 years after her alleged

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Discovery of Christian science, she doesn't tie it back to the fall on the ice, right? But in later years, this has become the myth of the origin story just kind of you know

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In the same way that a Joseph Smith's first vision has evolved There's about ten different versions.

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Yeah, I was thinking about that Yeah, and also it also seems that all these different cult leaders.

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They're never without controversy There's always stuff going on you think about all the controversy I mean Walter Martin talks about Charles Taylor's Russell just with all all that was going on with his time as well, too.

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Yeah, but Yeah, I just go go more into where where did it go from here with with a with Mary Baker Eddie?

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Yeah, so she ended up in 1875 writing the first edition of science and health where I mentioned that she

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Said she discovered a Christian science in 1864 In that first edition of science and health she also says that that We're God That that we can that we can become

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God so for instance And she speaks several dozen times about our

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God being and and and she also

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Well, let's see here I just grabbed this Trying to find this particular quote, but you know, she

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You know, she says to lay aside our God being as of little use and sickness seemed anomalous but She also says

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When we become spirit capital s which is the way she designates God We shall be infinite

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And one and she says we are Truth life and love again.

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These are three terms for God that she uses, but she capitalizes them We are truth life and love when we understand that she says we are never spirit until we are

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God She says these things dozens of times in the first edition

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She says that we are spirit and spirit is God is undeniably true

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So this is this is where her head was in In 1875 when she before the first edition of science and health

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Again she Through the 1860s she was still

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Channeling People according to affidavits at the time

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Christian scientists would all deny this But affidavits of people who knew her at the time

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Would say that that that that was kind of her experience and and and she

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She talked about writing science and healthy mystical experience for her as well

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She couldn't write during a darkness. She could only write during the day Yeah, a flood of thoughts would come to her and she wouldn't even she wouldn't even read them

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She would just write down what was coming to her So sort of this on a automatic writing so at this time too

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She was kind of involved in like spiritism almost like that that stuff was going on like like you're like you're referencing automatic thoughts or these are things that happen to people who

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Are delving into the occult and still right people still do that, right? Yeah, it's just like channeled into a source, but go ahead.

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Yeah. Yeah So her first advertisement for students appeared in the banner of light newspaper in in 1868, which was the largest spiritualist newspaper or magazine

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In the country and all of her early students were practicing spiritualists

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Including people whose houses she almost burned down in it in a fit of anger

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These were the people that she was traveling with. These are the people that she was that she was connected with now today

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The science and health went through four over 430 revisions and the last edition of science and health she changed the title of one of the chapters from Christian science and spiritualism to Christian science versus spiritualism and And and Christian scientists today would all say no she never had anything to do with spiritualism

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Etc You know if she was if she was trying to if she was connected to people who were spiritualists because she was bringing them out of it or it's because These are the people who are open -minded the churches were to were too bigoted to to receive her revelation

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Yeah, go ahead no, I'm just fascinated by this man keep on going So yeah, so she wrote first edition of science and health 1875 and and she said that she

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She wouldn't take in patients She would be focused on teaching other people how to heal and and yet There are this this book

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Mary Bickert a Christian healer Came out about ten years ago And this is all of the healings that are attributed to Mary Bickert II I haven't gone through all of it yet What but what are like some of the biggest when she had talks about her healings

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In fact, I I'm trying over the first time I had exposed a Christian science You know, I was talking about in one of her previous episodes

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I when I was a young child, I picked up a book and it was It was this Bible story book but it

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Jesus was on a stake and I was like what on earth is this even as a kid and I just felt like Repulsed by it and and turns out it was a book as a child's

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Bible story book by the Watchtower that was written I remember Going to a hospital

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We were going to a hotel because I had tried to get into the Navy which I end up getting medically disqualified from I didn't

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Make quite make the cut but I was stating that I was staying at this hotel The night before to kind of go through the maps the military entrance processing station

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And I had forgotten to bring my Bible I was a new Christian and I opened it up and sure enough there was a Science and key with health of the scriptures and I'm like this seems kind of wacky

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But I remember at the very front and I remember seeing all these different health testimonies, right? What were the health claims that she was making because now she had tapped into the source to be able to bring healing

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Which obviously it sounds and even before you even gave the details about her connections to the occult and and Tapping into the secret knowledge even at night and just writing down kind of like what comes to mind and stuff like that Yeah, what was what side of?

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More the type of healings that she was claiming to do and was there any actual? Medical any sort of like actual evidence of these feelings taking place or is it just hey this just you know this happened

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But there wasn't anything to really to back it up Right, so I've been through a significant portion of this book

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Tracing all the historical citations for it and 95 % of the healings

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That are in the book are attributable only to Mary Baker ready. She's the only person who said that these occurred

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Wow, so so she she spoke of And and I can make all of those all of the details available to you guys to share happy to to provide documentation for absolutely

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So so she talked about healings like Restoring You know restoring broken limbs we somebody's

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I grew back a Cancer which had completely eaten through to the jugular vein healed

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These are all healings which would happen instantly The dead being raised

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These are these are the kinds of healings that that she claimed for herself and in the back of science and health there's a hundred pages of people who

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Claim healings just by reading the book So and just to clarify kind of what you were what you were saying before So when you look at the 5 % of the healings that That we do have external documentation for these are not healings that Miss Eddie claimed for them for herself

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By and large there are a couple but but the majority of them are people like a boy writing 30 years later saying

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I saw her I had a stomachache and Shortly thereafter it got better, right? But Mary Baker Eddie claims to The claim that when she was a little girl, she heard voices and was lifted up Off of her bed and saw heaven

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She claimed and this isn't something that would be officially recognized

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But it's certainly shared in in Christian science lore That she walked on the water

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The so, you know, these are the kinds of claims that that she made and that have been made for her in the last 150 years

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Hey Tanner, so so in regards to healings if we think in Christian science terms

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What exactly is happening? There's not even really a healing right? It's more of just overcoming an illusion

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Right, right What's happening is? is a revealing of your true innate spiritual nature as found in Genesis 1 where you're not material you're spiritual and and in Christian science

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Having this understanding of what they would say perfect God and perfect man

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But that's the basis for healing when you understand that God is perfect and that you're perfect You'll be healed and so for over 15 years, this is what

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What I was telling people people would call me on the phone for help and I Would think from from science and health or from from the

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Bible through the lens of Christian science and Understanding those quotes

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Well That's the way to be healed in Christian science and Yeah, so so for Over 15 years.

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That's what I did and in that role. You're not allowed to have another job. So it was my only line of work

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For 15 years and you would be paid By the patient Yeah, you're not paid by the church or anything like that.

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So for most of my adult life Including nearly 10 years in Boston.

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I I lived on less than $10 ,000 a year Which doesn't get you very far in Boston So you were paid by the patient and yes

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Who's that pay was an upfront fee or is it contingent upon them getting healed as far as like what they?

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have like I I personally felt like I The way most practitioners operate is that they will charge per day

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That you are praying for somebody So they might charge $30 a day and you know, if somebody calls or the span of three days

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They'll send a bill at the end of the month for $90. I personally felt like I couldn't

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I Couldn't charge somebody unless they had experienced a full and complete healing

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And that was my that was my approach to things yeah

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Yeah, and so Imagine having grown up in Christian science.

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I I never had a biology class I was always exempted from all biology classes and health classes. So imagine growing up in Christian science.

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You don't know how the body works So for instance a

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A woman called me up and and she complained of lumps

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In her armpits and she was terrified that this was cancer. And so I was talking with her about You know, the cancer is no part of who you are, you know, etc, etc

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Lo and behold those went away after a couple days Neither of us knew at the time that was just swollen lymph nodes which happens

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But in in her mind and and in in my mind that was a healing of cancer

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That was a healing of a tumor of a or of a growth So So there's so many healings that are attested

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By Christian scientists who don't realize that. Yeah, the body just sometimes gets better on its own and And and that's the vast vast majority of The healings that that that I saw in Christian science

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So Wow Wow What about and I'm curious about this too

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Because I mean, I just obviously just a little bit of research here But I know when you look up Christian science online

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I mean, there's a whole process in which usually there's people get recruited into these sort of organizations

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There's the Christian science reading rooms and I've driven by a couple of them and I guess it's a place where you can go in and kind of like read the materials and kind of get inundated with all the different ideas of Mayor of Mary Baker editors teachings and stuff like that Explain to us.

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What's what is the purpose of those reading rooms? And what is that? Is that where you did your practitioning at?

36:57

No, that wouldn't be allowed You know to do that through through connection with the churches

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Do you just either rent an office somewhere or or work from home?

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so a reading room So Mary baby

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Freddy is operating in the latter half of the of the 19th century and back in the day books were expensive and so The larger publishing houses would make reading rooms

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Available where you could go and read a book and decide whether or not you wanted to pay the $3 which would be like You know a significant portion of your monthly salary

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To buy a book and and so Mary Baker Eddie wanting

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Christian science to be Seen as As the best of the of the best as as elite

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This is what was happening in elite society she established these reading rooms and and every

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Christian science church has a reading room has a place where you can go in and buy Mary Baker Eddie's writings as well as magazines published by the church or the the the

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Christian Science Monitor, which Since quotes are prize -winning newspaper. Yeah so Christian scientists are very passive in their outreach

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Whereas the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons will come knocking on their door. The Christian scientists are waiting for you to come to them

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Seeking healing and You know, there are exceptions to that there are

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Christian scientists who are who are more Outgoing in sharing Christian science, but those exceptions only confirm the role

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Christian scientists are are basically waiting for the world to be receptive enough to the great spiritual truths that Mary Baker Eddie has given us and And when that day comes the world will come knocking down the doors of reading rooms to to come read her book

39:18

Wow Wow, this is just this is just incredibly fascinating so then as far as I Mean there's different minds

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So this is one of what you call like a one of the like the mind science Colton in the beginning of Walter Martin's book He talks about that that Christian science and what

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Mary Baker Eddie taught was almost for like the mother of all the different mind sign cold So there's yes

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There's another there's a couple of terminologies that I've seen like throwing around with that and I want to explain to you like how they're

39:48

All connected. So I mean there's unity school of Christianity I've heard mentioned as well, too. And also they taught they call like new thought

39:56

I've got a good friend of mine who came out of the shot and became a Christian but explain Where how are those interconnected along with Christian science as well?

40:05

so so the unity school of Christianity so -called was begun by Emma Curtis Hopkins who was a student of Mary Baker ready

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And editor of one of the magazines for a while until Mary Baker Eddie threw her out And then so she started her own movement and All of these mind science groups

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Unity divine science religious science They're all kind of under the the umbrella of new thought which all take trace back their ideas to Phineas Quimby and Nobody would know anything about Phineas Quimby had it not been for Mary Baker ready

40:47

So Mary Baker ready Both popularized his ideas and because of the plagiarism allegations against her

40:58

That caused his writings to be published independently and so So, yeah

41:08

Mary Baker Eddie is is the mother of of all of these different different schools of thought

41:15

Mm -hmm and One of the but but Christian science would see a distinction between Between Christian science and and all all of these other groups would say that they've all gone astray

41:31

It wouldn't claim a connection with them, right? So and and maybe we can get into some of the some of the implications of About a little bit more but One of the unique distinctives of Christian science that that you see is a focus on what's called animal magnetism or mesmerism and Quimby practiced mesmerism

42:06

Which is just this idea that through essentially through suggestion You could you could bring about healing and then the converse is true that through suggestion

42:18

You could you could hurt somebody and and so Mary Baker Eddie was very convinced that Those who left her movement

42:32

Were mentally trying to kill her through Through thinking negative thoughts about her

42:43

And this is referred to as malicious animal magnetism in in Christian science and and so these

42:53

As a Christian scientists are constantly trying to protect their thought

43:00

How they would turn it against any? thing Would would in their leader against anything that would

43:13

Make them believe that they are material or that sickness is real or or that they are sinful

43:24

And and and that's another core element of Christian science not all of the

43:31

Mind science groups out there took Took that teaching with them, but they all share

43:41

This belief that essentially you're spiritually understanding who you truly are

43:50

Is going to bring healing to you hmm It's very similar to you know

43:56

Jim Jones father Jehovah father divine these think of proponents of new thought essentially believed that Literally, they can grab from this spiritual dimension

44:08

I know Christian science would deny this physical reality But I'm speaking in regards to new thought that they could actually influence and change and manifest spiritual manifestations from a spiritual reality into this physical reality in order to make

44:21

Changes to this reality, so it sounds like what they got from Christian science Christian science would would they would they almost agree that everything we see here is just a

44:31

Kind of like an agree an agreed -upon Illusion that literally like Mary Baker Eddie is saying these bad thoughts really literally can affect me

44:38

Because these these thoughts are what make this illusion a reality for us in a sense like um

44:45

If that's that's kind of what it sounds like to me. Does that does that make sense Tanner? Yeah, absolutely okay, absolutely and and You actually pointed this out in in a previous

44:57

Previous episode that Jim Jones And father divine and they got ideas from Quimby And again, nobody would know anything about Quimby if it weren't for Mary Baker Eddie So so they are all in this in the same stream but they're actually a lot of Groups that That have

45:24

Gotten a real influence from Christian science, even though they You know, they are

45:32

Christian science today, but but there's a lot of a lot of influence for them so for instance

45:44

EW Kenyon is was a was a well -known Pastor who

45:53

Had a lot of influence on Kenneth Hagan and And Kenyon got his ideas from Quimby and the

46:05

New Thought movement So Kenneth Hagan is is the father of the of the

46:13

Word Faith Theology of the prosperity gospel of this idea that You know

46:21

God wants you to have wealth and health here and now and And that's what the that's what the message of the

46:31

Bible is your best life now Joel Osteen Has also been heavily influenced by by those teachings as well.

46:41

Yeah, his dad And when you think about it,

46:46

I mean Christian science is Message is that you know, the whole point is healing in this world

46:56

It's it's getting rid of the illusion of sickness You know, it's not about sin.

47:03

It's not about it's not about a holy God. It's not about a

47:11

Hope for before For eternal life As we understand it as Christians, but it's it's a very this world focus and and that's where Christian science is and and and we see that played out in in these

47:28

These word faith teachers these prosperity gospel teachers, you know, if you just Google Google Christian science and and and EW Kenyon You have a field day with that Christian science and and Kenneth Hagan Kenneth Copeland Yeah, Joel Osteen, etc another another example of that that influence was

47:59

In in New York There was a very popular pastor

48:05

Norman Vincent Peale Got his ideas from New Thought he he spoke to Two people who confirmed that that connection you can confirm that connection with them

48:18

Norman Vincent Peale was also the pastor For a young man by the name of Donald Trump, maybe you've heard of him

48:29

Really? Yeah. Yeah So, yeah,

48:35

I mean Donald Trump's Donald Trump's worldview has been shaped by by new thought and and Christian science and and Donald Trump doesn't drink as Neither do

48:49

Christian scientists at least not officially I Never thought of Drinking.

48:58

Well, it's interesting to just Go ahead. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Yeah. No, it's alright. We're on Skype system

49:03

I made it a little bit of labor or whatever But um, I just noticed too that I haven't followed a lot of the news

49:08

But sometimes you're leading up to election 2020 is around the corner, you know, it just starts bleeding over But I've always noticed that you know

49:15

Trump in his ability to try and the type of evangelicals He hangs around are a lot of the typical like health and wealth and prosperity preachers preachers

49:25

I think one of his main spiritual advisors is Paula White. Yeah Yeah, so you get you get that sort of influence the typical evangelical a lot of those like health and wealth and prosperity

49:36

Preachers seem to be right around that sphere of influence and you even mentioned as well to Joel Osteen You know because people had messaged us before like hey, are you guys gonna do a cultist episode all in Joel Osteen?

49:46

I was like, I don't really know about that Like that seems to be kind of more in the realm of like a discernment ministry kind of sort of thing and I don't know if that's really covers a lot of material we cover but You mentioned because you mentioned to you look there's a briefing that Albert Muller did talking about the influences on Christian science and Joel Osteen and his big thing a lot of times a lot of his sermons to are the

50:09

You know the power of words and the power of your thoughts and you basically speak

50:14

You speak your reality like into existence where in a sense that's similar to in There's a level of work similar to Christian science, even though technically there is no material reality

50:25

He is saying you invisibly speak out. What is material invisible eventually? Right, right.

50:31

So yeah, exactly he's getting that straight out of out of new thoughts straight out of Christian science and And so, you know a

50:40

Christian scientist is is gonna be very careful with their words and be very careful about what things that they listen to Yeah, you'd mute every medicine commercial as a kid growing up Because yeah, you don't want to accept sickness as real

50:57

Because if you're you know, if you're accepting it as as real then you can get sick And and you just want to be very careful with you know with what you're saying and and and and more to the point what you're thinking because your

51:15

Your thought Determines your experience Standard this this is taking me back to what you said in the beginning how

51:22

Mary Baker Eddy in the beginning was talking about how We are God essentially, right? So we know that God spoke everything into existence

51:30

It almost seems like the the the fear of words is because we they equate themselves with God So we can speak into existence because we have that image of God And that's that's absolutely terrifying in a sense and it makes sense as well

51:45

That there's so many offshoots from Christian science because we have this person who obtains the secret knowledge that at first questions the

51:52

Word of God and says no there's something more and you need this to interpret the Bible and You need a guru to do that.

51:59

So we have Mary Baker Eddie This is this is actually the downfall of what they believe in Number one because because there's gonna be other people who come along other prophets other gurus who have just a slightly different Viewpoint who is also obtaining this secret further knowledge as in, you know new thought then we go father

52:16

Jehovah with the beginning of divine economic socialism into Jim Jones, which is essentially the same thing

52:24

But he's like well, let's take this a step further and it's it's extremely Interesting.

52:29

I find that it can go so many different directions because when you believe that you are

52:34

God That means now your words become the standard So anyone literally can challenge you and we don't have a standard anymore because all the

52:43

Everyone's beliefs end up on the same playing field. We know that's not true. According to Scripture. Yes, and it feels it feels like every single one of these cults and movements now funny

52:53

I was thinking the whole time like through Jones colored glasses and thinking about how these world all these different worldviews just sort of become like a

53:00

Genetic hybrid of just a bunch of different ideas and pools of thought and it seems like as it progresses along It just merges into something else like you mentioned all the the occultic and media and Mary Baker being a medium and Even just initially like I said listening to some of her teachings and then things as she was saying

53:17

It's like man that just sounds so Eastern, you know, and it's not it's not surprising.

53:23

So let's do this. We let's go ahead and wrap this up for now This will be part one We're gonna job jump into a lot more of your story

53:31

Tanner just about the progression of it and more about just the influences As a kid and also growing up with it how you came out of it

53:38

So this will be part one of our initial episode on Christian science I feel like we've only just barely scratched the bare bare surface of this

53:47

I'm just I feel like this is seriously the fly -in -the -wall episode and I'm having a blast at Tanner again

53:52

Thank you so much for being on with us and we will talk to you guys in part two of this