July 8, 2003

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now, it's 602 -973 -4602 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic here is James white.

Why Dave Hunt Should Debate Calvinism Publicly

And good morning and welcome to the dividing line. My name is James white and we are going to be listening to some comments that I downloaded yesterday From the Berean call website of the reason being some of you will recall that in our last installment I made reference to the fact and boy, this sounds really really strange today I'm not sure exactly what's going on.

The music sounded weird and I sound like I'm on Zork the planets next to the 13th stellar. Whatever, it sounds really strange. But hey, you know, that's how you start programs off. Hopefully we'll be able to get it fixed and working here and that's sounding better.

I'm sounding like a little bit more like myself now. It doesn't sound like I've been smoking camels all day. Which I don't do and find out utterly disgusting. But anyway sounds much better except now I'm disappearing.

But other than all those things you may recall a couple weeks ago. I Took the time to mention actually I think it was in the last installment the fact that We have attempted to Encourage mr. Hunt and the folks at the Berean call to in essence live up to their name and Function as Bereans and help all the rest of us deal with these issues.

I think there's a clear lack of willingness in the part of many of those who will stand stand before audiences and proclaim Reform theology to be unbiblical and inconsistent and damaging to the church and damaging to the gospel and so on so forth.

There is an unwillingness on the part of these individuals to then interact meaningfully with those of us who believe these things and believe that it's important to be consistent in our theology consistent in our proclamation and That in fact these issues are becoming more important as we live in a more and more post Christian society.

And so We have tried to arrange debates. We've tried to have debates on this program with folks who weren't all that well-known, but of course we have sought to engage Norman Geisler and other individuals and especially Dave Hunt and debate and I mentioned just a few weeks ago that mr. Hunt has made the statement that our book which currently is scheduled for release in February of 2004 even though I have Inquired as to why the long delay the book is done for all intents and purposes I would imagine it's due to catalogs and scheduling and you know, I understand all those things I certainly would like to see it earlier than that.

But Mr. Hunt believes that the publication of our book is sufficient. There is no need for a person-to-person dialogue and debate on this issue now, I Reject that I reject that for many reasons which I have I have enunciated to mr. Hunt I have pointed out that there are numerous questions and and the issues that I have raised To him that he has not addressed in his responses in the book.

I Have pointed out errors that he has made that he simply glosses over and that in a debate those things would be brought out and if what he says is true concerning the inconsistency of Calvinism the alleged in the alleged a Constant tactic of Calvinist to just explain verses away.

I think a public moderated debate not just one debate, but I in fact had initially got a An agreement from mr. Hunt to do something that would involve something like a Friday night Saturday morning Saturday evening three sessions as much as seven to nine hours of debate on specific subjects with lots of Interaction cross-examination, I think that's extremely important.

I think many people would be benefited. I I firmly believe that when it comes to issues that cause people confusion and No one's going to deny that there are people who are very much confused there are going to be people who listen to Dave Hunt and they're gonna hear what Dave Hunt has to say and they like Dave Hunt and they hear Dave Hunt saying that Jesus is God and the Bible is true.

And then the next program on the air is Ligonier ministries and RC Sproul and RC Sproul is saying that Jesus is God the Bible is true and yet The issues of the atonement and the issue of God's sovereignty and the nature of grace and man's will.

This can be very confusing to people well the best way to get rid of that confusion is to have both sides come together in a Situation where there is there is control there is a moderator. There's equal amounts of time.

It's not one person talking over another person and there is Cross-examination where you follow the rules you answer the questions you in essence pony up to the bar Shall we say and you plunk your money down and you do what you're supposed to do?

And that's what we've invited. Mr. Hunt to do and he's chosen to decline Though he had once agreed to do so in light of the publication of this book and there are people who said that's exactly what's Going to happen.

I recognize that But I certainly never Had as the idea. Well, we'll write this book and then that's going to be it. No. There needs to be a dialogue. It needs to be discussion so I happen to be on the Bree and call website and there's archives of the radio programs and so I went through and looked at the topics and I grabbed a number of them and Is there anything new here in comparison to for example a couple of I don't know how many months ago It was we were sent the videotape of the talk at the at the Calvary Chapel Discussing this issue of Calvinism.

Not really except that what you have here is you have not so much extemporaneous comments in a in a Calvary Chapel setting instead you have a nationally broadcast radio program and what you have mainly are answers to questions that have been written in by by Individuals who read the Bree and call or listen to the program and things like that.

And so I want to play some of these respond to them and hopefully so doing again since this materials going out since What love is this is all over the place. I was looking at in fact, I wait a minute I think I've got it right over here.

Yeah, here it is. I have here What the edition is this? This is the summer 2002 edition of the Calvary Chapel magazine issue 12 summer 2002 under CCM recommends book reviews. We have right in the middle here.

What love is this and Here's what CCM? Says in regards to what love is this what love is this provides a comprehensive overview of the peculiar doctrines of Calvinism. Chuck Smith considers author Dave Hunt a modern-day prophet of God that's in quotes and Has called the book a quote must read for those who are serious and their desire to understand the influence that Calvin has had and Quote as Calvinism comes into Calvary chapels worldwide.

Mr. Hunt's demonstration of Calvinism's misrepresentation of God the book's subtitle Will keep many from falling for its siren call as with all of Dave Hunt's books What love is this points the confidence that we can have in God's Word and love that he has for his sheep.

Which I find ultimately ironic. Since it denies that God has any special love for his sheep. Dave Hunt's position at least as we will hear it enunciated here. And it's in that book is that God's love for his sheep is identical for his love for his enemies Who stand upon the parapets of hell screaming their hatred at him and that his love is unfulfilled for all of eternity in their case.

Now interestingly enough when we got into that subject in the book. Even though much of his opening presentations were based upon what I am going to identify as mono benevolence. Mono benevolence that is the idea that they get God can only have one kind of love.

It cannot be differentiated. It cannot be special. It cannot be specific unlike Mankind God can only have one kind of love and it's the same for everybody. Mono benevolence, that's the position that he holds once I demonstrated biblically that that's ridiculous.

That it makes God less than his own creature that God gave to his creature Capacities he himself does not have and that there are numerous biblical passages that demonstrate the special love of God the love of God that he Has redemptively which differs in substance and in purpose from the love that he has Non-redemptively for all of creation or the love that he would have that is expressed in the Bible for Nonsentient beings animals and plants and trees and things like that.

He agreed to all that but then never Connected the dots and made that work and we're going to hear that over and over again in the in the sections. We're going to listen to today on the program. And so let's start with the first question that is asked on the.

Foreknowledge, Predestination, and Election

Berean call radio program now contending for the faith. In this regular feature Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and Readers of the Berean call and here's this week's question. Dear TA and Dave.

I just met someone the other day who said he was a five-point Calvinist. I don't know whether I was more shocked by what he said he believed or by how convinced he was about his beliefs. I've been a Christian for about five years and I attend a small church, which is very Bible oriented.

Even so I've never heard such teachings before. Could you give me a brief biblical definition of the following terms? For knowledge predestination election and chosen. Thanks. But Dave, you know one of the things that that I've learned from this book here.

You finished and hopefully you'll be out by the time this program airs it's called what love is this Calvinism's Misrepresentation of God was that prior to the reading the book I would sort of avoid doctrines like Predestination for knowledge election.

I had some ideas about them, but I didn't. I didn't wrestle with them. But I found from reading your book that that they're wonderful. I mean, why why wouldn't they be wonderful doctrines? They're in the Word of God.

But I never really understood them or took a close look at them until until I read your book so for knowledge.

That should be straightforward enough. The Greek word is the one we use for prognosis prognosco and It simply means to know ahead of time. Now the Bible links all these links for knowledge with the election and predestination.

First Peter chapter 1 elect according to the foreknowledge of God. Or Romans 8 whom he foreknew he did predestinate. Now the Calvinist of course does not want to have any basis for predestination or election.

Let me stop it right there for just a moment, please. Two things and since it's going to go on for about another minute or so I didn't want to lose track of this in our debate book. I Specifically point out and of course remember even at this point and you can tell this was in around March or April of 2002 because the book was just then coming out.

Already mr. Hunt has claimed to have read more on Calvinism than most Calvinists have to know more about the most Calvinists have and obviously since the book is done and my book the Potter's freedom is is certainly one of the most often cited sources One of the main targets that mr. Hunt shoots at then he would have to be aware if he is able to take off his blinders and To simply read the text as it stands and to listen to what's being said.

He would have to at this point have read the material in regards to the meaning of foreknowledge as a noun and For known to foreknow as a verb. But as you listen to mr. Hunt, he does not distinguish between the two.

Now remember this is the same gentleman who just a short period of time before This I stood in a church in Indianapolis and listened to him say from the pulpit. I Do not read Greek it might as well be Chinese, but I can read English and here he's going to be allegedly offering to us a definition of prognosco.

However, he doesn't differentiate between prognosco a verb and prognosis a noun a substantive. He confuses the two and in fact when in our debate book I pointed this out. I made the presentation I summarized the issues concerning the use of to foreknow as a verb over against merely having for knowledge a philosophical concept of having knowledge of future events.

I laid out the fact that every time God is the one who's doing the foreknowing the verbal form that the Object of the verb is personal. It is persons who are foreknown not Actions in his response in the debate book.

He went ballistic and said I can't believe That white would so misrepresent these things and say God doesn't know future events. I didn't say God didn't know future events. I said that the verb to foreknow every time it's used with God as its subject as a Personal object and hence the verbal form and the philosophical noun form are not being used in the Identical way in Scripture.

This is simple exegesis. But it is something that mr Hunt is not able to do and not willing to listen to those who do do it and This leads to this kind of just simply mushing the text up and saying well For knowledge means this and therefore I'm going to stick that definition in everywhere as we will see once you recognize that he does not Differentiate between the verb and the noun his entire position from a logical perspective Collapses and I think everyone can see that this would be something that would come out in the debate.

I would challenge him since he's using the terms since he's saying Prognosco means this then I would be able to say mr. Hunt. Where are the places where prognosco is used in the New Testament, mr Hunt when prognosco is used in a New Testament With God as its subject.

What is the nature of its object now? It's very obvious Dave Hunt has not done the study to know the answers to those questions and you might say well You're just picking on someone who hasn't had the opportunities you have if you are going to go on National radio and make the kinds of comments that Dave Hunt makes her and did you notice what was just happening here?

Let me let me stop this here for just a moment. Hopefully not crash the program What was happening just here now listen to what Dave says when he he recognizes That there are answers to what he's saying about foreknowledge, but it's painfully obvious.

He doesn't know how to respond to him. So, how does he respond to him by saying that Calvinists are dishonest in how they handle the text?

Listen, what he says. Or Romans 8 whom he foreknew he did predestinate. Now the Calvinist, of course does not want to have any basis for Predestination or election except God just decided it now.

You see that see the Calvinist doesn't want this the allegation is very clear. He is saying that we are the ones mishandling the text of Scripture if you're going to go on national radio. You're going to go to print and make that kind of allegation.

I'm simply saying you need to have done your homework and I am consistent on this point. I have throughout the entirety of my ministry Insisted that if you're going to do that kind of thing if you're going to write a book on Mormonism, for example.

Know something about Mormonism. Okay, listen to what they have to say. Try to understand from their perspective and I have done so I know there are many more. Oh, no, no, no. But I've had many other Mormons say, you know, you certainly have you've gone beyond.

What what what most people ever do in trying to be honest and what we believe etc, etc. So I have been consistent at that point. That's one of the reasons I don't like to comment on things outside of my area of study.

Is because people will assume that I'm bringing that same level of expertise those areas outside my area my area of study. And I don't want to do that. And so we've been consistent. And so when we say to folks look we need to hold Dave hunt accountable here.

I'm saying that as a person who not only has contacted him before the writing of this book attempted to be of assistance to him. Attempted to warn him as a brother in Christ. That this was coming that he was going to be held accountable for the words that he that he says because it's causing confusion.

But now I do so as a person who has tried to live even if I've been inconsistent at times I've certainly tried to live in light of what I'm trying to do. So when he knows that there is an answer. That he cannot handle in regards to the meaning of foreknowledge and the verbal form and the noun form and all the rest of stuff.

What does he do? He turns the question to an allegation that it's Calvinists who are misreading the text misusing the text. Because of the fact that they have this system that they're attempting to defend we continue with what he had to say here.

And he wants to link predestination election with salvation. In fact, they are not. Predestination is or election is unto a blessing. Unto something God has marked out ahead of time for those that he knew would respond to the gospel.

Okay, we need to keep me up by the guests on these. Not hear what's being said there. There's this there's this this marking out predestination. This is this is found over and over again all of his talks predestination election is only to blessing never to Salvation and I will I will gladly Recognize that the individual who who heard this and pointed out first to me a fellow by the name of Mark Ennis Who I believe is enrolled at the South as the Southeastern or Southern Southern? Baptist Theological Seminary Dr. Al Mohler and all the folks over there Southern Seminary Mark pointed out.

He said, you know, what does what does hunt say about second Thessalonians 2 13? And second Thessalonians 2 13 of course says but we shall always give thanks to God for you brother and be loved by the Lord because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth and You know, this is one of the popular very very popular texts.

And so I grabbed my copy of what love is this and I looked in the index looked in the scripture index. Not a single reference in this entire book on Calvinism to second Thessalonians 2 13 not one reference and yet I have Repeated statements in the book and in Dave Hunt's radio programs in his talks at Calvary Chapel's Never is Predestination and election and in in one of these cuts you'll even say it's the same thing.

Never is it to salvation? It's only to blessing. Well this happened during the course of the writing the book and so I included a statement in one of my responses in response to him saying that Well, mr. Hunt says it's never we are never chosen for salvation and yet second Thessalonians 2 13 says brethren Beloved by the Lord because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation.

And I then pointed out there is not a single reference to this verse in all of What love is this and so in his response, I'm just waiting, you know, what what kind of response are we going to get here?

Obviously the best response would be well, you know I I hadn't seen that before and here's how I would understand what is being said there. Instead the standard response I got throughout the debate book when there's a clear error on his part is well We don't really need that verse.

Anyways, there are hundreds of verses that teach this that the Calvinist ignores such as and then Off you go into the sunset with with that kind of response and Unfortunately in our experience already over the past couple of years since we did that radio program with Dave What is that about three years two years ago two years three years three years ago?

The the response Has has been yeah, it was 2000. Yeah, so it's about three years ago. The response has been very very very consistent. And that is Dave's followers many of them Do not question what he says they simply will not question His assertions, they'll just simply attack us as individuals.

For even daring to point these things out, but it's it's right there in front of everybody. Second Thessalonians 2 13 is directly contradictory to what what he has to say here, so let me.

Election Is Not Merely to Blessing

Fast forward here just a little bit and continue on but the Calvinist says no. What it means is those that he? Determined beforehand so now we have a redundancy those that he those that he determined.

Beforehand he elected. No that is not a redundancy. This is a common element of of Dave's Teaching. The only way he can try to deal with the lexical meaning of prognosco Is to say well it makes it identical to Predestination it makes identical to choosing now.

Of course he makes those things identical to each other. But it doesn't seem to see that as an as an issue and anyone who's read the discussions on the meaning of the term Even though the discussions that I present in the potter's freedom would recognize that there is a difference one is a personal choice to enter into relationship with Predestination.

Election is then under salvation since the love of God is Unconditionally given in that for knowing that for loving in eternity itself then that love is going to prompt The redemptive act that is a part of predestination which we then results in time than the calling justification glorification.

It's not a redundancy and again that would be something that would come out in a debate.

Beforehand or those that he predestined he predestined but for knowledge. I think from the scriptures. You're gonna have to introduce some other ideas to change it. Simply that God knew ahead of time, and I can't give you the many other examples of that, but we have Examples that show that this is what that word means.

I can't give you examples.

I can't discuss with you the lexical forms these terms. I can't differentiate between verbs and nouns, but just trust me. That's what it means. Listen to me. It's sort of the Jedi mind trick. Listen to me when I tell you this is what it means.

That's that's not. That's not what it means at all. Well. We continue on Dave.

Predestination and I know you included it in the definition for knowledge, but just give me a simple.

Definition. It's something that God marked out beforehand as a blessing for.

Certain people. So predestination is a blessing that God marks out beforehand. But notice it's going to be based upon his foreseeing that he would choose him those that he knew would respond to the gospel.

So Romans chapter 8 Whom he foreknew he predestined to be conformed to the image of his son. Now notice.

If his meaning if his understanding of foreknowledge which is very very clearly involves the the denial of the distinction between verbs and nouns and the fundamental elements of language if That argument is untrue if it is inconsistent then his entire position Collapses and he has no answer for the golden chain of redemption.

So the ones that he knew he marked out before he had a blessing he liked according to the four. That's the next election. Well. I believe it's the same thing election for him. Predestination. He liked according to the foreknowledge of God that we should be holy and without blame before him in love or in Ephesians chapter 1 We're chosen in him.

Before the foundation of the world. Now listen carefully to about what is about to come up. Because I think you could make a case that that We we doth dance upon the edge of heresy and what's going to come up here.

Again that we should be holy without blame before we love these predestinous. We are elected to become the sons of God. See God could save us without making us his children. He could deliver us from his judgment without blessing us to be joint heirs with Christ.

So the things that the blessings that God marked out before him that is what he predestinated.

Now think about that for just a minute. He's had to go so far as to say well. God could have done it differently. So these are just blessings. As if in the economy of salvation in the New Testament being united with Christ and being a son or daughter of God is Somehow merely a blessing and not something that every single believer Experiences.

And yet it is so clear. How in the world can anyone? Read Romans chapter 8 the first number of verses and not recognize that Sonship adoption this is part and parcel of the very means of salvation itself.

Every single believer Experiences this every single believer has the Spirit of God who cries out within their hearts Abba father. There is no salvation without that union to Christ. And so here to try to avoid The the plain teaching of Scripture in regards to God's sovereignty and the meaning of election.

And calling all these things here He's saying well. That's just a blessing. That's you know you can be saved without all that stuff.

An amazing statement. To or elected us to or chose us to now. The word chosen is used in a number of different ways. For example it doesn't always mean in fact as far as I know it doesn't mean ever chosen to salvation.

Did you catch that it doesn't mean ever chosen to salvation. Let us remember? Second Thessalonians 213 because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation just like to sort of repeat that you were chosen.

To a particular work to a ministry and. It doesn't necessarily mean you are saying.

Now now keep that in mind if you are you are chosen to a particular work in ministry. There is no question that the term calling and choosing is used in that way. There's no question about that, but When a person and and this is important I've mentioned this before but let me mention it again before we take our break one of the reasons why We should learn to do exegesis that is one of the reasons why if we are going to be in a position of Teaching others the Word of God Teaching God's truth to others one of the reasons that we should learn how to do.

So not just simply come bopping in say well the spirit will zap me remember Apollos. Apollos is a man who is great in the word, but he accepted Correction and instruction so as to be able to do so in a better way.

And why is that. Because honestly folks think about and this has struck me a lot recently and I want to try to communicate to others. It is a tremendous affront to God to think that we can just jump in here and start teaching God's Word and In so doing we end up inserting into God's mouth Our thoughts and our traditions, and that's what Dave Hunt's doing here.

The reason that we learn to do hermeneutics the reason that there are rules and that there is work involved is so that we can allow the text to speak for itself and When you allow the text to speak for itself you're allowing God to speak because it's his word.

When you don't do that when you eschew these things when you call people elitists. Who say you're not following the rules of sound hermeneutics in reality when you're not willing to do that. Then in essence you yourself are inserting your concepts and your ideas Into the text of the Word of God as if your words are God's words.

That's showing tremendous disrespect for God. That's showing tremendous disrespect For his word if we want to hear God's Word with clarity. Then we will do the work that is necessary to do so and that's not elitism in any way shape or form.

That is allowing God to speak in the way that God Has deemed it proper and necessary to do so. Well, we are listening to various sundry assertions made by Dave Hunt on his Berean call Of radio broadcast and in fact, I imagine I believe it's a it's webcast as well.

So it's similar to what we're doing. But before we continue on we're going to take our break and we'll be right back after these few messages.

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Exegesis, Hermeneutics, and the Need for Public Debate

Welcome back to the dividing line. We are responding to some of the Isagetical comments made by Dave hunt and we're not picking on poor Dave in the sense that. We have done the same thing just recently in regards to Norman Geisler.

And you may notice a tremendous amount of parallels between the two in regards to the traditional form of the Argumentation that is being made against reformed theology. And I don't think that it is in any way shape or form a an improper observation to make.

That the high road of exegesis belongs to reformed theology. That we can engage the text of Scripture on a level that quite honestly I just do not believe our minions are capable of doing so not because they lack the ability but because their tradition precludes the acceptance of Certain fundamental truths that are necessary for consistent reading of the Word of God and let me mention I only mentioned this briefly a couple of programs ago if you are looking for the In a way of well to fulfill what the Calvary Chapel magazine was talking about here.

Let me let me read that again when the Calvary Chapel magazine makes reference to as Calvinism comes into Calvary chapels worldwide. Well, if you'd like to help that to happen to the benefit of all those individuals We have a little book that was originally titled God's Sovereign Grace that title has been changed just a little bit in the current printing the Sovereign Grace of God it is my Friendly introduction to doctrines of grace it is meant to to communicate to your your standard evangelical the Biblical concepts that underlie the doctrines of grace in a friendly manner and to answer many of the common questions that are asked about that.

A new printing of that has been made and we have a special offer right now that in my little book drawn by the father on John 6 35 to 45. Those two books new printings are available and we have do we still have any left of the original?

Is this is this whole? I think that's a yes. Okay. We still have a few of the original printings left. Which we will include in other words if you buy one of the new version of the Sovereign Grace of God.

You will get free along with that one of the original editions. They're older. Obviously, that's why we're not selling them as new. They're about 13 years old, but they are they were in a box. They're in fine condition.

And so you're getting two for the price of one both for drawn by the father and God's Sovereign Grace that all supplies last well supplies last thank you very much and. So that offer is on our website number of you have taken advantage of that we sold out of the shipment we had immediately we have two more shipments on the way and.