The Laborers' Podcast- Church Hurt

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What is church hurt? When we are hurt by those that were supposed to love us, how do we deal with it? We hope you can join us for this important discussion.

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Welcome to the laborers podcast tonight. We're going to be talking about church hurt.
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We hope you can stay with us Welcome again to the laborers podcast the comment section is up and on and it's waiting for you
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We would love to hear from you. Let us know that you're watching say hello. Ask a question. Give us a critique
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We'll try to do the best we can answer your questions If not, we'll get back to you if we can pray for you'd love to be able to do that tonight we have a serious talk talk that we want to take serious because it's it's
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I Would say that it's a pretty widespread spread
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Issue But before we get to our serious talk, we have a request. We want to offer something to you for your
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But Claude I'll just let you take it over and share something with us. All right, so men
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Do you have a beard? No, if not Why?
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You're a man So in any case over to my
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This side of me over to the over this way We have big John now big
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John had a beard up until this week and for his job. He had to shave it off But big
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John in a time of in a downtime began to create what's called big
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John Beard balm now just in case you're not aware of how to use beard balm
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What you need is beard balm also called beard butter. You can use oil but manly men use big
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John beard balm What you need next is a good comb or a good brush
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Now I'm gonna demonstrate very quickly. Just give your beard just a little scuff up there
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Just a little scuff up like sandpaper. Take your beard balm Scoop you out some on your finger
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Put it in the palm of your hand rub it in first Tone down those wild mustache hairs
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Tone those down and then just rub it into your beard Now I need my towel as well, but I don't have a towel.
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Oh, no, what do I do? Well, I'm a man. So I just use my shirt Next take your comb lightly comb through your beard smooth it gently out and look how fantastic that looks
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You too can have a great beard with big John's Beard balm, where's the cheering section?
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You got that button that you uh, when you introduce folks you'd they cheer that's a video so no
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I don't have it. I don't have it available right now Good job
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John. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the rest of this conversation Man I wish
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I had my beard still Well, I I'm looking forward to the conversation tonight, um,
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I know it's gonna be a serious conversation and it It's kind of bleeding from Conversation we were having off air.
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I don't know what we would call that off podcast before the podcast pre podcast show
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You know we suffer And we go through things and and God has given us each other this this brotherhood and this relationship that we have with one another and I'm just tremendously grateful for the relationship that we have
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That we can come to each other talk with each other keep each other accountable encourage one another pray for one another in our times of doubt and suffering hardships and We Go to scripture and we encourage one another and I'm tremendously grateful for those conversations and So let's jump right into to church hurt and I even seen a video this week on tick -tock a lady expressing her
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Experience with church hurt now. We we want to take this subject seriously
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Because we know it affects a lot of people But I also want to be balanced in our conversation.
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And so when you hear me ask the question and you hear us answering the questions Please don't take offense to the questions that are asked or how they are asked
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And how we may answer because I want to I want us to be balanced. I want us to to think about this pastoral pastorally critically
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And not just be one -sided on the issue Because when it comes to church hurt or or any kind of relational hurt you have one far end of the spectrum where you
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May have let's say physical abuse where you need to go to the police
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And then on the far other far end of the spectrum you may have
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I Got my feelings hurt because my expectations weren't met and so you have legitimate and sometimes you have
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Illegitimate reasons for your your hurting and and we want to be honest with ourselves
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What is this hurt that I'm feeling? Is it legitimate? Is it biblical?
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How do I deal with it? So With that being said and our aim being biblical balance
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Let's go to the first question and Tyler since you're on the top. Let's go with you first All right.
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Yeah, how can we determine evaluate? whether a person is expressing a legitimate matter or is elevating personal preference
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Okay, so how will we determine if it is a legitimate thing or if it is preference?
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Well, like like you said, this is a this is a multi -faceted issue. This is not a one -size -fits -all
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This is a mirror with multiple faces that this it's very broad it it branches out in different corridors and such but In terms of general principle,
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I think if we were to ask the question, how do you determine if this is preference or not?
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I think that comes down to discernment and Evaluation when we when we pray like the
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Psalms try my heart God See if there is any wicked way in me test me.
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Oh God judge me. Oh God. These are recurring themes in the Psalms Point me in the way everlasting point me to what point me away from what grieves you and I've been pondering first John chapter 5
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In preparation for this podcast. I've been Working through first John for Pretty much this week and I jumped ahead a couple chapters.
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I'm still in personal chapter 1 but chapter 5 Says by this we know that we love the children of God when we love
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God and obey his commandments verse 2 of chapter 5 and What John what
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John is bringing two elements together that I think are very important to this conversation is the love of God and the love of the church and those are things that should and Ought to work together that because we love
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God we love the church and because we love the church we love God and when we come to the point of Being hurt by the church
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Often we are grieved When the church is not what it ought to be You know that the church should be the thing we love the most
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As far as earthly terms go that there is a different way that the Christian approaches love where we approach people and concepts
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Because we don't love Just in that brotherly sense with phileo as the Greek said, but we agape we love as God loves the part of what
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Christ does is Call he beckons us to a different kind of love and this is the love we have for each other if we're in Christ And so when there is church hurt when there is genuine
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Hurt there that is not just a preference thing. It stems from being grieved that the church we love so much is a mess man
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Amen Tyler any any other comments on that question? I Would say and and of course correct me if I'm wrong
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If we're trying to evaluate legitimacy and preference and we're looking in the mirror
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To help ourselves go in the right direction My mind goes to Matthew 18 where we're talking about church discipline and and relating with someone who has sinned against us and I think about the very beginning
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And we're asking ourselves, you know, is this how do I determine how do I determine and Matthew 18 verse 15?
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says If your brother sins You know not
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Not that he Doesn't that he doesn't he doesn't that you don't like or it's not your preference
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But it's a biblical sin. You can find a you know, your verse your chapter your verse. It's it's a command
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It's a sin that you can find. It's a biblical sin And so I I think that's one way that we can help evaluate
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Legitimacy preference versus something in Scripture All right, big
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John you ready I Think so, how can we determine or evaluate whether my hurt should be seen as a conviction?
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Or legitimate abuse So, I think it's it's gonna It's gonna kind of go back to art for starters is is
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Your discrete is your grievance one that? Pulls you towards Christ by way of highlighting a sin as you were talking about out of Matthew Is this is this a is this a matter of church discipline?
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That you don't want to hear right or is this a matter of in this case?
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You said Conviction so I was thinking about when you said that when Peter got through in Acts chapter 2
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He he gives his his speech verse 37 Now when they heard this there appears to their heart and they said to Peter and the rest of the
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Apostles Brethren, what shall we do? so if I believe that if you're being honest and You look at the critique or you look at the scenario that you find yourself in if it is one that Bolsters Christ and lifts
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Christ up if it is one that is biblical Whatever is being said if you can find it, you know in the pages of Scripture then
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You might be suffering from conviction and not church hurt but if what you're listening to is something that is man -centered and Bolsters either a leader in the church or it doesn't have to be a leader in the church but to anybody and you can't rightly discern that this is a matter of Spiritual discipline or any other any other spiritual conflict then you might
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You might have yourself something that falls outside of Scripture and can be painful and will be hurtful
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And that I guess that's the only key I could use to differentiate between the two Yeah, Claude, do you think it's you think it's important that we find this balance that we we make sure we're heading the biblical direction and not just being hurt over our preference issue absolutely, and like that like Tyler and John have said, you know, it's not to minimize the legitimacy of Of the reality and the reality of being hurt by church people and and the problem there lies
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And I'll say the problem there lies with not with God's Church but with the people as A general rule.
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This is not the most spiritual definition, but as a general rule people are stupid
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People are stupid and we're already working. Yeah, people are stupid because of sin
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Sin makes us all and this is not again I'm including me sin makes us all stupid and it makes us do selfish and irrational things and So the again the reality is there but like John said we got the key for us as Christians because we're talking about Christians actual born -again believers in Jesus Christ who have been hurt by church people our
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Responsibility is always to go to the book. That's right. The book is our standard
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There's nowhere else for us to go outside of the book I think it's fantastic.
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I want to add to that if I can It's natural for the gospel of Christ to be offensive to the flesh
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It is natural to hear the gospel and the first recourse is to how dare you talk to me that way or how dare you?
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Say something that so cuts me to the point, you know, and I think that's where maybe
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In a position not and brother Claude, you know, there's probably better than maybe anybody on here That's where it's important to encourage folks to be reading their word their sales to have a relationship with God so that so that and to encourage this this atmosphere of Brotherhood that should exist naturally within the church so that you can take something
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I've said if you want to and Bounce it off of somebody else and say do you think brother
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John was being hateful to me? or do you think that he was being loving and what he said and Let let somebody else open up the word and and show them maybe
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I could have used kinder hands or maybe somebody could have used kinder hands and And if that's the case and let somebody else teach them the truth and love in a way that they can
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Receive it because it doesn't matter whether they hear from me or anybody else as long as I hear it and receive it Yeah, amen, and I'm sorry.
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Go ahead. No. No. Well, I was just gonna say listen you guys talk It's just it's reminding me and it's causing me to reflect on the conversation as you guys were counseling me prior to the podcast
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Because I'm listening to myself Speak to you guys and telling you my situation and telling you what's going on and the more
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I listen to myself the more I hear myself and how it's about me and You know,
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I'm pointing out all the all the circumstances that are happening around me that that seem to that I'm viewing as Maybe against me or negatively towards me
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And And I'm realizing as I'm listening you guys talk It's me not my circumstances that need to change which you know
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They may you know individuals they they may need to change but that's not my issue My issue is myself and how
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I view Christ and how I view that situation in light of Christ and so It's this conversation, you know is helping me out and that's in that area
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And again to Like tag team with John right there what
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John just said to he ended with truth and love, right? I know we're on the truth and love network, but it we're talking about church hurt in light or in context of Born -again believers in the church who have been hurt truly hurt and so our responsibility again going back to the word is like John said
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Truth in love sharing truth in love with one another he gave the example, you know, maybe he said something
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He was taking offensive. Let's say I was offended Well, I go to so -and -so and I say what do you think about this what he said?
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well, so -and -so may know John better than I and say oh, that's just you know, he was just That's just how he talks right?
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That's just how he he communicates don't take it personally Right, or they're gonna say hey,
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I don't think that was right so individually First step church discipline is one -on -one go.
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So I would go because what we want to do here tonight is not only Accentuate or highlight the reality of church hurt
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But we want to point to the way that your heart and your mind can be healed in Jesus Christ According to the word and so my responsibility there would be to go to John and say hey
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John look, I Took offense to what you said Can you explain to me a little bit more about what you what you meant by what you said?
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Did you mean it and and ask be specific because the problem is with our communication is it's too general
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We you know, I can say what you said offended me well John said 255 ,000 words between the time that I came to him
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And I'm going back to him to address the issue. So be specific say, you know, this is what
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I took offense at And then again, like you said rock like you said at the beginning
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Rob Is it just a personal offense or is it a genuine sin against us, right?
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a genuine sin and Then again, there's the discipline of saying hey, look,
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I recognize, you know I wouldn't want to go to John and just say what I said a minute ago, right John. I realize you're stupid
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That sin makes you act stupid right as though I don't sin but we are taught right
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We are taught to go to our brother in love in our brother in turn is to be
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Responding in love, so we're communicating both sides both ways in love with one another the
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Listen to what the Apostle Paul taught the Philippian Church in chapter 2
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Philippians chapter 2 he said therefore if there is any consolation in Christ if any comfort of love if any fellowship of the
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Spirit if there is any affection and mercy Fulfill my joy
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By doing what by being like -minded and having the same love
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That's the love of God the love of Christ having the same love Be of one accord and one mind
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One accord in one mind and then he said let nothing be done through selfish ambition or vain glory or conceit
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But in lowliness of mind that each one esteem the other better than himself
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Other better than himself and let each one of you not look out not only for his own interests
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But also for the interests of others and then guess what Paul goes into the great hymn
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Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus Who being in the form of God did not think it robbery to be equal with God, but he the
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Son of God he Made himself of no reputation and he took upon him the form of a servant and being found in fashion as a man
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He humbled himself and he became obedient unto death even the death of the cross
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Wherefore God also has highly exalted him and God has given him
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Jesus the name that is above every name that at the name of Jesus Every knee should bow of things in heaven of things in the earth and things under the earth and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is the
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Lord to the glory of God the Father The church is
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The problems come when the church gets we get our eyes Off of our
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Lord and we get our eyes on ourselves and we get our eyes on our brothers and sisters again
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Again, I know we're supposed to look out for one another on interest But our chief aim and our chief goal and our chief end as Christian men and women is to look unto
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The Lord and we will always get in trouble We'll always make a stinking mess when we get our eyes off the
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Lord I Was gonna I was gonna say that's yes.
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Now that I was gonna ask brother Claude something or anybody as far as that goes So in a case
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Where it is that that's that's a that's an example of where this is a
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Christian Behaving in a manner and and the things that they're saying are taken out of context. What if?
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It's the opposite. What if it's leadership that really isn't genuinely Christian and they have done something that is hurtful
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What do you do then if it's if we'll take off the table things that you need to Alert the authorities on but things that are said there that are hurtful because Somebody's taking the
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Word of God out of context and they're using it out of place And they've done something damaging from behind the pulpit then what would the
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What would the Church go or do if their pastor has put them in that because that's where the biggest church hurt
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I've seen comes from. Yeah well, so I Puritan Anthony Burgess wrote about 150 sermons on John chapter 17
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Christ's prayer for unity amongst the brethren and he once said that's in that scenario
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You don't leave the church until God does That when God is not in the pulpit when they are not abiding in Christ and leading the church and shepherding the flock
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It's not a church When we talk about loving the church and we talk about some of this
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Love is defined And the way that Christians love is defined and sometimes the church that we love is not the biblical church and sometimes
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Sometimes the church that we love is not the church that we're at because we're in the wrong place If that if that answers your question
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I'm trying to put myself in a position of somebody who may be listening. I've never by God's grace. I've never found myself in that position
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But if someone was listening and say they don't have a church around the corner that they can just attend to maybe they're in a place up north or out west where there's
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Where churches are few and it and it and family may go to that church. It can get messy church can get messy yes, because the more people that are in church to the more opportunities y 'all because the cloud said people can be dumb and and the more people that you include into a equation the more complex the equation becomes so If and I'm taking an assumption
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But in the event that we're talking about somebody who has got their eyes off of Christ and on to something else
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And they're in a position to where they're hurting people Is the only recourse a man has to leave that body of believers to their faith
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So, do you think that's the only alternative that's the only that's the only answer to that question then is to it's you drag up That's that's a that's a wrong phrase.
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That's It's an iron worker for it is to leave is to is to say I'm gonna move my membership to another town
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Or do we think there's a discipline? I? Think part of it is Matthew 18 with if he's offended you you go with him
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You go to him you go to him with a brother you go with an elder And if he still does not receive this reproof then under normal circumstances that would be brought before the church, but in a
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Hostile toxic church environment that may not be something that happens That might not happen and so at that point
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I think it does become time to seriously Earnestly pray about is this where I'm supposed to set roots
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Understand that understand is this a church that God is releasing me from So in in the
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Baptist Church, it's it's autonomous, right? Is that the right word brother Rob? It's what? Autonomous, it's it's its own entity each each
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Baptist Church. Don't need to turn the volume up or no I just didn't catch that word. You're good. They're there.
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They're isolated from other churches most of the time, aren't they? Usually they have their own bylaws and their own things so now in in my church
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It's part of a a bit of a centralized more form of government in the case where there was a preacher that was
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Had gone rogue. I can always go to my district overseer It's my district overseer could go to him with the state overseer or something like that and they could they could talk amongst themselves and See if this is a case where I've taken something out of context or if in fact
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There's an issue of seeing what needs to be dealt with You know, the overseers have the authority at that point to remove this man if if that were the case
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Because I think about Again church can become messy say you're at a church that Will get real right close to it.
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So I've worked with guys who've been in this situation, which is partly why I'm asking parents and family built the church
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It was on family land. It's in the neighborhood and a pastor was appointed who just absolutely
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You know fumbled in his responsibilities, but there's nobody he answers to congregation doesn't vote him out or vote him in he's been appointed and The only the only
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Avenue they had was to leave but he had family that didn't want to leave They they just seem to stay now
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I would think there's a certain amount of fleshly reasons involved in that person that decides to stay in their own case
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I just trying to put something out there that y 'all can flesh out having more knowledge than I do about it So that somebody who's watching may be helped by Well continuing off of my personal experience in that that realm
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It was not something they were willing to bring before the church we were told to Just just deal with that basically and it became a scenario where We couldn't heal in In that congregation and it was not fair to the rest of the church to bring that hurt through the door every
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Sunday And so it was our conviction that we needed to to leave
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That we were released from this body Knowing full well that it would
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Put a lot of strain on the church because of how integrated we were into serving
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Mm -hmm that it would Wreak some havoc a little bit and they would they would have to adjust and they'd have to shift and that that that was a hard call to make
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But the reality The reality was We Couldn't heal in that environment and it wasn't fair to keep bringing that through the door every
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Sunday so we we left and we went to a church where we we could heal to a more more sound church and I guess in finding that balance a lot of it
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I think has to do with Again with evaluation and with the the layers of Matthew 18
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With going to deacons and confiding in those who have the charge That it's that there are built -in sounding boards for How am
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I perceiving this right? Am I responding to this in a way that is? right
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Am I caught up on my feelings here or my feelings caught up in how it is?
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But again, I still come back to 1st John we know that we love God when we love the brethren and sometimes that gets really hard to Even when we're talking about leaving a church because we still love the church.
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Oh, yeah Right and you love you love the people in the church
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And I'm and I'll just you know, let's we'll just talk straight up, you know
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But the love is not so much there for those who are sinning against the church as in The case you were talking about Tyler and John the example you were giving, you know in the example of a pastor
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Misapplying misappropriating God's Word that is In the
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Old Testament, there's a statement that's made as Goes the priest so goes the people and and that's the case the people
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Should God's people I mean not the people God's people God's people sadly just because of the way that the way that churches
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Have formed the way that churches have operated They've broken
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And I know I'm pointing out the problem. But again, the solution is going back to the book churches have
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Moved away from the biblical pattern of The church in general, right?
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Number one people aren't taught to love Christ Right because Christ is the head of the church
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I mean people people are in love with the hands.
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They're in love with the feet They're in love with the thumb. They're in love with the ear.
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They're in love with the eyes But then well, I shouldn't even use the facial features, right?
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Because if they were looking at the head, they would see Christ. They were in love with the hands They're in love with the feet as is so often the example use where the hands and feet of Jesus We need to be looking at the head in Loving the head with all our heart with all our soul with all our mind with all our strength
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Realizing that he were taught in the scriptures that he gave himself for the church
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And that it is his body and no man the scripture says no man is ever hated his own flesh
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Right. I mean what we don't realize is that when When when we sin against our brothers or our brothers sin against us
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It's an act of treachery It's it's an act of treachery against Christ.
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I mean, I don't think to myself if this was a hammer I don't think to myself lay my hand on the table.
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I'm gonna whack it Right because why because that's gonna go
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Straight through my body and the whole body is gonna feel the pain the whole body's gonna feel the pain we don't think about that, but but our our general the general
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Direction of the church has not been loving our head with everything we got because he gave himself for us
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But it's about becoming this or becoming that we want to we want the church to do this
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So we do this we want the church to do that and do that when in reality, it's not about what we want
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It's about what he has done And that's all that's all our responsibility is
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I mean good grief. It's like adam and eve in the garden They only had one thing to do
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They had one thing leave the tree alone You had one job Yeah, and we've got one thing to do and that is look unto our savior
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The old song says turn your eyes upon jesus look full in his wonderful face And the things of this world will grow dim in the light of his glory in his grace
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So again this general stream of the church. I'm sorry rob. I'll try to i'm i'm trying to hush i'm trying um
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Preach on brother Seriously, but so the church has has had that general drift
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And it's and it's like an evolution is taking place centripetal force has kicked in Right and the church runs on autopilot and it just keeps rolling keeps rolling keeps rolling keeps rolling keeps rolling when
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It's things like What we're talking about tonight that ought to cause us to literally come to a full stop
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Be content with silence be content with calm be content with the quiet Because there's sometimes like elijah
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God, he ain't trying to speak to us in an earthquake. He ain't trying to speak to us in the wind all the time sometimes
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We got to get still to be still And to recognize that he is god
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And just listen to that still small voice And by the way that voice through the word of god is still and small at times
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Sometimes it'll shake us. Sometimes it'll blow it'll blow us back But it's still the same word and it's still the same truth
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So we got to go to the book Go to the book God forbid
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I ever stop anybody Like you brother who I know but I wanna I don't wanna who is taking right, right, but but you are you are taking us to that which is
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Most important and that's the lord. Jesus christ. That's right um, I do I do not want to stop anybody who is who's taking us to our first priority and that's jesus christ and I wanted to go back to Something that you were saying earlier, um
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Because biblical reason or not um We shouldn't just leave the church.
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We should go through these steps that we were talking about But but but before we even do the steps
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We need to go to where claude was taking us and and what claude was saying earlier is something that that we really need to flesh out and that is um,
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I'm not looking at myself. I'm not looking at the other person. I'm looking at christ and flesh out what that what that means um
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I'm if if that pastor or that person in in the body They are they they have hurt me or they have done something.
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They have committed a sin done done something unbiblical, um, i'm not looking, uh for their
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Correction so that church can be more comfortable for me Um, i'm looking
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If i'm looking at christ, then i'm looking for their their healing their correction um, so that it is
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Not shaming the name of god so that is not um blaspheming the gospel Um, so that it's not taking away from the word of god so that it's bringing reconciliation
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In our relationship so that our relationship can point to christ If if i'm the person that somebody is coming to and i'm looking at christ when they come to me
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I'm, not going to say how dare you come to me? right i'm going to say
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Is there anything that? Even if it was perceived wrongly,
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I want to know what it is so I can make that correction um I want to receive it
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I want to hear it so that we can make things right because i'm looking to christ and i want to point to him um
38:50
And then we can start the steps We can start the steps after we realize
38:56
We don't need to be looking to each other and what it means to look to christ And and i'm so grateful claude that you were you keep bringing us to christ
39:04
You keep bringing us to jesus and how important that is. Um, and I think many of these other questions that we're going to get to um are just Continuations of the conversation that we've already started
39:19
So the next question and whoever wants to jump in here. Um Matthew 7 talks jesus talks about a good tree bears good fruit.
39:28
So that's kind of the expectation of a church But but then comes this this church hurt
39:35
Um abuse church hurt, uh, whatever you want to call it. Um How how do
39:42
I understand what's happening here In light of that passage my expectation is it's matthew chapter 7 a good tree is going to bear good fruit
39:52
But now there's hurt in the church there's abuse there's something
39:58
Amiss awry How do I understand that? Well, i'll since there's silence i'll jump in again
40:13
Because when we look at the text What jesus the context of that verse that you're talking about is not just starting on its own
40:23
Right enter by the narrow gate and then jesus says specifically Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves
40:34
You will know them by their fruits, right? The men gather great. That's the verse you're talking about, correct rob the men gathered
40:42
Um From thorn bushes or figs from thistles Thistles even so every good tree bears good fruit
40:50
But a bad bad tree bears bad fruit a good tree cannot bear bad fruit and it nor can a bad tree
40:57
Bear good fruit every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire
41:03
Therefore by their fruits you will know them number one Fruit takes time to see
41:10
Right the first again, we're we're talking about legitimate church real
41:18
Christians who have been hurt by the church right whether or family church family members even right?
41:25
Yeah whether it's physical family or spiritual family either way but Tyler tyler said it if it's a hostile environment
41:36
Right if time has proven the proven out the
41:46
The continuation of the activity that that has taken place that's caused the issue
41:52
Time is bore out if things continue to be the same then we go back to the the psychological understanding
42:02
Uh, what's the definition of insanity continuing to do the same thing and get different results if things continue to be off the book uh to be
42:12
Uh, you know contrary to the scripture if things seem to be driven by selfish pride and vain ambition and and self conceit self -love right and from the pulpit like john's example, then then the
42:30
Reasonable wise and spiritual thing to do after having Tested the fruit right born out would be to As kramer would say giddy up to go to get out of it and to find a place
42:46
See, that's the key. It's finding a place And in you rob you again you you preface this in in your opening remarks
42:55
And it's I know it's one of the things here um, but you when you leave
43:03
The key is to find a biblical church now the problem with that is that because People are stupid
43:15
People make up god's church You're not going to find a
43:21
Hear me Hear me understand let the let the hearer understand here. You're not going to find a quote -unquote perfect church
43:29
That's that's unflawed by human pride and by sin. But what you will find or what you
43:37
Should look for is a church that strives. I mean that literally strives to be biblical
43:45
They'll trip they'll fall they'll stumble they'll make mistakes but guess what they repent
43:54
They confess their sins To christ they confess their sins to one another and they are in a continual pattern
44:04
A long -term pattern of striving to be pleasing unto the lord now nobody
44:11
In their right mind if they are literally sinning like you said going
44:16
Contrary to the scripture and teaching things that ought not to be taught particularly for preachers
44:24
They Should be held accountable Now john what you talked about that's a presbyterian form of church government where there's overseers right over all the churches
44:35
The churches have their pastors Then there's the bishops, right? Is that's a that's the setup
44:41
Right, that's the episcopal pattern but in a local autonomous church government there should be a multiplicity of elders there should be a number of elders because When the power is put in the hands of one man to lead a church it becomes a
45:03
Quote unquote one man show and everything ends up in his image and in his likeness
45:10
Because it turns into a cult that's exactly right. That's exactly right
45:15
That's exactly what happens and it becomes to please the quote -unquote pastor rather than pleasing jesus
45:25
The one who died for the church, so we've got to to look for that to bear that fruit out
45:31
It and and here's the thing there are times When the fruit is born whether it's bad or good where it doesn't necessarily take that long to see the pattern
45:43
But there are times where it's subtle And then when you realize it
45:48
Tyler, is that was that the case in in in your case? Was it a subtle realization of the pattern?
45:55
Of misconduct or or abuse or was it a quickly realized pattern?
46:03
It was a bit of both honestly, it was it was subtle but there was a big thing that made the subtle clear
46:09
Yeah And I think what you were saying was was really really good because what you did was you define good fruit?
46:19
Sometimes there's the expectation Okay, good a good tree will bear good fruit. All right, it's going to be perfectly ripe all the time
46:27
It's going to be in season all year long and it's going to be so beautiful It's going to be glowing and nobody's ever going to hurt me and nothing's going to go wrong
46:36
Everybody's it's going to be you know, we look at it with rose -colored glasses Yeah, but in reality you define what a good fruit is a good fruit is
46:47
Realizing that we we are people that mess up And we are assembly a gathering of people who are going to mess up But it's how we respond when we mess up Amen It's like you were telling me earlier
47:02
There's going to be those times of of mountaintops where we may look really good and reflect christ
47:07
Well, there's going to be those times where we don't but what do we do? When we don't how do we respond and I think that's where we see the good fruit
47:19
I want to add something brother claude saying in matthew 20 when you were talking about matthew chapter 7 20, uh and 20 came to my mind whenever uh
47:28
Then the mother of the sons of zebedee came to jesus With her sons bowing down and making requests of him and said to her
47:35
What what do you wish? She said to him command that your kingdom
47:41
Command that in your kingdom these two sons of mine may sit at your right hand and on your left
47:46
And jesus answered You do not know what you're asking. Are you able to drink of the cup that i'm about to drink?
47:53
They said to him we are able and he said My cup you shall drink but to sit at my right hand and my left it's not mine to give
48:03
But is but it is for those whom it has been given prepared by my father And hearing this the tent the ten became indignant indignant with the two brothers
48:14
Jesus said himself this and this is the key part of this for me. At least it makes the most sense You know that the rulers of the gentiles lord over them
48:23
And their great men exercise authority over them This is the way the world works the weak serve the strong This is the way the world works the people who have power only seek to heap up more power
48:36
The people who have more strength are only satisfied with greater strength and greater Greater subjects, but it is not that way among you.
48:44
This is 26. It's not that way among you Whoever wishes to become great
48:50
Shall be your servant Whoever wishes to be the first among you shall be your slave Just as the son of man did not come to be served but to serve
48:59
And give his life as a ransom for many inside the church though the strongest
49:05
Serve the weakest That's what I call it. Christ is our example Yeah, so those are those that are what
49:13
Paul says those you are spiritual when you find your brother in a fault bear them up Yeah Whenever you run across so if if you
49:21
If you're in a position Where those that are over you in authority in the church?
49:28
do not act As they are in their position And don't serve that's what the term minister means by my knowledge is at least
49:36
I think that's right in the man Brother tyler. I know your word smith Isn't that the definition of minister as a servant?
49:45
the word servants and the word minister um Bears with it the idea that we are entrusted with something
49:54
So that's why somebody who does the office
50:01
Of minister which doesn't necessarily have to be a pulpit pastor there's all manner of elders teachers and that's why whenever you
50:13
You find yourself dealing with things that are stupid you come to them with Kindness as best you can and you take this word to them and show them they're wrong and sometimes they get hurt
50:25
And if that's the case and it's that's that's biblical but if somebody hurts because They're acting as the gentile or as the world and they're lording their authority over you
50:37
And that's a totally different matter And that's what brother rob when you're talking about the fruit and said you can't change what you are
50:45
Right these it never was a matter of trying to Make the wolf a sheep.
50:52
He's a wolf This bad fruit is bad fruit. You're just not going to you're not going to eat it, right? so in these situations you have to sometimes get to I suppose the option is leave or to make the wolf leave.
51:07
I think this is just going to sound very sinful So don't take it as fleshly when I say this, but uh, who's ever watched the patriot?
51:15
Yeah, male gifts maybe so the preacher leaves with the uh, With gabriel when they go to fight the british
51:22
And he says what are you going to do? He said sometimes you have to shoot the wolf Yes, and and I thought that was
51:29
I thought that was fitting, you know, don't shoot don't shoot a bad pastor I'm not saying that what i'm saying is is sometimes you got to get rid of him
51:34
You know what I mean? And and if that means you vote that pastor out if that means you leave that church and by doing so The void that you leave when you you leave causes a shift that causes other people to open their eyes to who they're
51:49
Who's in front of them then that might be one avenue. Is that fair brother tyler? I would think in your case um um, yeah, so we didn't didn't leave it was a it was a bad situation and uh
52:03
He did end up um leaving as well So the vacuum lift caused other people to question things.
52:09
Yes So by all means do not shoot your pastor, I want to make sure
52:14
I say that three times, you know what I mean Even if he's a terrible pastor Leave your gun at home
52:22
Bring your praise to church not your pistol But john calvin did once write that the
52:30
The pastor ought to have two two voices one for gathering the sheep and one for driving out the wolves
52:37
That's right, that's the role of a shepherd that's far more eloquent than I hadn't read much of that so I saw it as a coloring page for kids.
52:47
So Praise the lord. That was a good coloring page. I want that one Well for the sake of time because we're running out of it
52:56
I want to narrow it all down to three more questions And tyler I want to start with you because you gave us that that great quote earlier.
53:04
Um When is it okay When when should my conscience be clear
53:11
About leaving a church and I know you you spoke earlier that quote about you know, when god leaves the pulpit
53:18
What what are some of the steps that should be taken before I should consider leaving a church? Um, what are the what are the signs?
53:25
What are the things going on? Um before I would consider leaving a church That's a loaded question
53:33
Okay well again, I think there is matthew 18 with uh
53:40
If there is a grievance that you have whether that is a pastor or if that's somebody in the congregation
53:46
Um, that's somebody that something you should go to them first and see if you can work that out
53:52
Because when the old testament talks about forgiveness, it doesn't stop at forgiveness It talks about reconciliation
53:59
Right book of genesis doesn't end with joseph forgiving his brothers It ends with joseph being reconciled to his brothers that there is a restoring of that union between brothers
54:12
And that should be what we seek to do in the church. There should be a restoring of unions And in that first step that would look like going to them and seeing if that's something you can repair and if they
54:24
They don't receive it if it's still as bit is it every bit as hot and contentious as it was before Bring in a deacon or in some churches an elder, uh, depending on what term you want to use bring in one of the men of That are above reproach one of the men of god in the church the the under shepherds and try to hash this out and if that doesn't work and we've
54:50
We've gone that these all these steps um It goes before the the congregation points out that this is
54:59
This is something that's going on. This is something that we as a church do not condone that we urge this person to Repent and there are some churches that do that a lot.
55:09
Um, um I know john mcgarthur has done that in his massive mega church that they have matthew 18 people from the pulpit
55:16
Um, it's not comfortable. It's not something we'd necessarily like to imagine and sometimes it hurts right
55:23
But uh, these are the steps that christ gives us for handling these scenarios and he affirms
55:31
These things by saying when two or more are gathered in my name. I am there among them that christ is present
55:39
In the midst of these hard situations of discipline and judgment But back to the question of when do you leave when how do you work that out?
55:49
When we've gone through matthew 18 as best we can and we are no closer to restoring that union
55:57
When if anything it has been even more damaged by this process
56:04
Yeah um I think that becomes a point where you earnestly pray about where god would have you i'm, not
56:13
Necessarily the type that would say you need to blow up the church on your way out but um
56:20
So so like don't don't kill the preacher and don't blow up the church don't don't blow up the church
56:25
Don't make a scene Don't make a scene. Don't like announce you're leaving on facebook or something like that Exactly But there are times where god
56:37
I think releases us from a hostile church from a toxic church And calls us somewhere else and then
56:44
I think there are other times where god Urges us to stay because things will get better and so it's
56:50
I I can't really give a blanket statement on that because it is um a matter of us abiding in christ
56:57
But there is an element of am I sinning if I remain? Am I ceasing to abide in christ to put on my church face?
57:06
right Yeah, I like that. I like that. Yeah I'll tell you what
57:13
I hope we've used some heavy words tonight and I hope when YouTube and facebook their ai and algorithms review our videos
57:22
We don't get flagged I apologize I wasn't thinking about that Um But see my beard wasn't there to filter anything
57:32
Usually i've got a mustache it flaps over and some of those words get captured And my buffer's gone well
57:41
Just just some last thoughts on what tyler was saying Uh, one thing that comes to my mind when you when you feel like you're getting to the end of of that process
57:50
The the verse that comes to my mind is romans chapter 12 verse 18. It says If it is possible
57:57
Yes, as far as it depends on you Live at peace with everyone.
58:03
Amen. In other words You're responsible for yourself. You're accountable to god for yourself do all that you can do
58:13
That's right and even even at that We may not be good at self -reflection
58:20
Go to a mature brother mature sister, whatever case it may be and say have
58:25
I done all that I can do Yes, because they may help you re -evaluate that situation
58:32
That's good advice. But as as far as it depends on you Live at peace with all men and that's doing all that we can do for the glory of god.
58:40
All right Um big john the second question second question Kind of the the opposite of that question if someone has left
58:50
What is some good advice on finding a good healthy local church? well um
59:00
So I know that there's gonna be differences of opinion on On this greatly now for me a church that is healthy and that is biblical obviously is one that is
59:11
Teaching with authority what christ has said period without without apology and without without Bending the knee at all to society
59:22
And with that means that they have a healthy Both a healthy outreach and a healthy discipleship program.
59:29
That means that you're going to have to go to this church more than one time You're going to have to get to know the people at this church.
59:35
This is not something that you show up and The pastor's just got a really good message that day and he hits you right between the eyes and you stay because of that one message it should be something that is
59:45
That is tried out whenever I joined real life it was Uh, I did not come to real life with the intentions of staying at real life
59:54
Uh, I had become I'll leave that part out. I came to visit
01:00:00
I came to visit because I had been invited Outreach I had been invited.
01:00:06
I knew the people at the church because I had seen them in the community Sharing the gospel so I went
01:00:13
And as I was uh sitting under The pastor there. He made a statement that I thought was absolutely bonkers 100 % bonkers
01:00:21
For people for people who were church hurt. This might mean more to you than did me. I wasn't church hurt I want to preface what i'm saying.
01:00:27
I did not leave over church hurt, right? uh When I got there
01:00:33
He was he was preaching and he came up to me later on. He said I know that Some of the things that I was saying you you know
01:00:42
And that some of the people here that they've never been to church before they're learning He said I will tell you that i'm not the best preacher you ever hear
01:00:50
He said god didn't call me to be a preacher god called me to be a pastor And I thought that is silly sounding
01:00:56
But i'm not going to say that Because that doesn't that to me that just didn't compute it didn't it didn't hit on any wavelength whatsoever
01:01:03
But I will tell you what I have learned over the last eight years now almost eight years now
01:01:10
He loves the church Because he loves the lord Amen He loves the lord and the lord has given him a love for people that otherwise
01:01:21
Probably you wouldn't like Yeah, and in that I have seen what the difference between A now
01:01:26
I know what he meant. I have seen preachers who could preach the house down. Yeah, but they couldn't love this much
01:01:34
They couldn't love you this much and uh Pastor johnny's a phenomenal preacher
01:01:40
But he is a better pastor And with that he has taught me more
01:01:47
About dealing with people and how to love people Then I would have learned from studying it in scripture because i've seen it
01:01:54
So I will probably be forever in his debt for that and I think that if you're going to look for a church
01:02:01
You obviously you need to be in a biblically sound correct church I'm, not I don't want to I don't want to make light of that at all
01:02:06
I don't want you to think that this is about you know sunshine and rainbows or whatever and and unicorns dancing on the front pew but the biggest thing
01:02:16
The biggest thing is that the scripture is is is broken down and it's taught
01:02:22
Outside of that you need to seek a pastor who has the heart that the lord gives a pastor because this is a calling
01:02:29
This isn't a job This is a calling that's the way i've always looked at it. I can get a job.
01:02:34
This is a calling. That's right If you've been hurt in a church Before you before you were to give up altogether
01:02:44
Find a pastor that preaches the gospel and loves it out He lives it out and he loves it out.
01:02:50
And and I think that you'll see that uh I think that god will even give you an opportunity to forgive the person more fully that ran you off because you'll see that it was for your own good because I think somewhere it
01:03:01
Says he works All things out to the good of those who love god those who are called according to his purpose and uh
01:03:10
You know That's that's my two cents on it Well again, I can't go ahead I think you gave really really really good advice when you said get to know get to know people because I'll put it like this
01:03:25
I think denominations Are are good in this way that we define who we are and and so people can can know who we are know what we believe and um
01:03:39
You you can kind of tell which direction you need to go what you're looking for, you know who you match up with I mean it helps define doctrine and and all that good stuff
01:03:50
But i'll say this there's some There's some church of god churches.
01:03:56
I wouldn't send people to there's some reformed baptist churches. I wouldn't send people to there's some presbyterian churches I wouldn't send people to there's some southern baptist churches.
01:04:03
I wouldn't send people to But i'm going to tell you I would send somebody And I would go myself to sit beside you at your church of god church
01:04:13
And he'll heal with you. I would go sit beside claude At his reformed baptist church and heal with him
01:04:20
I would go with tyler and dan to their churches and sit beside them with their church and heal with them
01:04:26
Because i've gotten to know you and I and I know where you stand with the lord. Jesus christ and on scripture
01:04:33
And so I think you made the a really really great point about getting to know People and where where you need to be to find a good place of healing
01:04:43
Yes Yeah All right, claude. Here's the last question for you If you're the outside church
01:04:53
You know you you have this individual and you have this church they're having this situation over here
01:05:00
But then that person who is kind of in the middle of the situation comes to you comes to your church
01:05:06
You're the outside church How do you deal With that person what would be your advice to to not to the person necessarily but to the church who?
01:05:18
somebody's leaving That that situation and coming to you. What's your advice to that outside church?
01:05:24
How's it So you're are you saying then that they're coming they're going from one church to another church and you're that they're they're communicating
01:05:32
What went on at the last church, correct? Yeah All right, so just from dealing
01:05:41
With people I mean, this is a common thing, right? Well, we're coming here because this happened, right?
01:05:47
We're coming here because this happened well first thing that As being the one being approached
01:05:56
The first thing we need to do is exercise discretion or a discernment.
01:06:02
Sorry discernment. We need to say All right. Let's probe into this further because if it is a pet peeve that they've left the other church for Guess what's going to happen before long they're going to find it
01:06:20
They're going to find a pet peeve there they're going to go on so I would say so Is this something that's regular regularly occurred?
01:06:29
How many churches have you been a member of? in the past 10 years
01:06:34
Right, just go 10 years well And they say for example, i've been a member of four churches in the last 10 years well
01:06:45
That might be a A ding ding ding ding moment that says this is a pattern
01:06:52
So then I would say to them right after probing right asking that just those simple questions.
01:06:58
How? You know, how many churches have you been a member of in the past 10 years? Then then
01:07:05
I would say this Is the I would ask them Is the issue that you faced at your last church in your last four or five churches?
01:07:14
Is this something that you think you might encounter here and then ask them because They're either going to be they're either going to be forthright and forthcoming with the information or they're going to dissimulate as the king james says or you know
01:07:35
Pull pull the mask over and they're going to pretend like oh, no, this will never happen here
01:07:40
Don't trust anybody that says this i'll never do that again Or this will never happen right again
01:07:48
Because again, they can't you can't say that So and then I would say this are you prepared?
01:07:55
to go to the scripture And look at and see if that issue is actually a quote unquote sin
01:08:03
Or is it just a preference? again, not to Down down play or down, you know downgrade the the reality of church hurt but to Genuinely probe to those issues and in and again what that does is like what uh, john said there is
01:08:24
Let's them know Listen If you come and I and I start asking you those questions, you're going to do one of two things
01:08:32
You're going to say I appreciate you taking the time to talk with me and delve in deep about this
01:08:37
Or they're going to say you know what? This ain't for me I'm gonna go on down the road where I can blend in where I can fade into the background
01:08:47
Nobody will talk to me. Nobody will ask me anything. I'll go when I want to go I may not be there for a month or two
01:08:55
And then I I expect to be at a place where nobody holds me accountable Hmm That's That is a problem.
01:09:04
Yeah, that is a problem and that is not how us as christians are called to act in the church of the living god
01:09:12
We are accountable to one another not only for our wrong actions, but for our right actions
01:09:18
We are accountable to one another to love each other with a pure heart fervently
01:09:25
So that's how I would approach that without going any further Because you can go down the rabbit hole on that.
01:09:32
Oh, yeah Well, I'm gonna end with this And then tyler if you don't mind i'd love for you to share the gospel and big john if you'll pray after that um
01:09:41
What we've been talking about, um We got we got a brother joining us
01:09:50
Hey john, what's up guys? What's up? What's up? That's jay we're Talking Sorry, I guess better late than ever
01:09:59
I just want to jump in and tell you I love you I love you Um We were just getting ready to wrap up.
01:10:07
Is there any uh anything you want to add to the conversation before we do? So church hurt is such a a huge topic and and that's why
01:10:15
I didn't want to Just let it pass by. Um, I did not get to Listen, we've been in an elders meeting and it was a good one, by the way, so there was no church hurt involved um
01:10:26
And so I figured I'd jump in while i'm driving but guys the biggest thing for me to take away from church hurt
01:10:32
Is people hurt people but god never does And so you can't blame god for what people's actions do
01:10:39
And and you shouldn't uh Shouldn't beat upon the pride of christ um you know, you you got to love the body of christ because christ loves his body and so So just keep that in mind if anybody's listening for that little tidbit all of us have experienced severe church hurt and uh
01:11:00
And but the lord is faithful and there are churches out there That do love god and love one another and are striving to do it.
01:11:08
Well, and so So just because you have a bad experience In one not all of them.
01:11:14
So y 'all probably already said all that but just an extra tidbit I mean Well, that was beautiful and uh, and i'm going to end on this before tyler shares the gospel with us.
01:11:25
Um, What we've talked about tonight and what these brothers have shared with us tonight are hard things
01:11:32
They're hard things and we need the help of the holy spirit. We need the help of the lord. Jesus christ And and the father himself to accomplish these things that and we can only do it through him and it reminds me of of A passage that i'm studying that I shared with the guys earlier
01:11:49
That is that is really screaming and and bringing out in the text the sovereignty of god
01:11:55
And one of the commentaries that i'm reading um speaking of the sovereignty of god in that text took me back to psalm chapter 61 verse 2 and that commentator said
01:12:10
Look at the supernatural nature of what's being said here An unbeliever will not say this only a believer will say this because the supernatural work that god has done in his heart and that verse says
01:12:25
Lead me to the rock that is higher than I Only Only those who are saved that's why we need the lord.
01:12:34
Jesus christ Will cry out to him. I cannot do this I need the lord.
01:12:40
Jesus christ lead me to the rock that is higher than I Amen and we can't do it on our own and with that being said tyler.
01:12:47
Will you share the gospel with us? You're muted.
01:12:54
You're muted brother I'm muted. Well going off of robert's segue here um, psalm 61
01:13:04
Says let me dwell in your tent forever. Let me take refuge under the shelter of your wings we've been talking about hurt we've been talking about aches and grievances and The reality is that we are all gravest people that we
01:13:21
Sin because we are sinners That we are not at our core. We are not good that our hearts are wicked constantly and desperately
01:13:32
But god has made a way For us to dwell in him and to take refuge in him that that That bad situation at church doesn't have to be how it is
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That's right That does not have to be the story of you. That's right
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Because god through the person of christ gave himself for you He lived the perfect life that you and I could never live kept the whole law all 613 thou shalt nots
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Kept it perfectly from the time he was conceived He lived that perfect life and then he did he died the death that you and I should have died for that sin
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But he didn't deserve and it says in First peter that he bore our sins in his body.
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Amen That the weight of that sin of all that brokenness was laid on him
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And he died he died a human death as human as he could possibly get he died He was buried for three days
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But because he's god He didn't stay there Amen he rose from the dead Proven that he has authority over not just life but over death.
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Amen. It is all under the reign of christ And he beckons every sinner
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To come to christ with faith and repentance trusting that he will make all things right.
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He'll make all things new He will redeem us. He will restore us. He will save us
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So that we can pray as the psalmist did Let me dwell in your tent in your house forever.
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Let me take refuge under the shelter of your wings Father we come to you in jesus name
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So very thankful So thankful for all you've done so thankful for who you are
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God I I ask that you touch those who've been hurt in churches I don't ever believe it would be your intention
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To drive someone away from the bride of christ If they'd be someone who listened who came here tonight seeking some kind of guidance,
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I pray they got it God, I pray that you've talked to them that you've ministered to them That that can be healed and it can be restored
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God, I pray that you bless these men who've showed up tonight You've shared their heart For those who watched online
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I thank you for them God Lord, I pray that you be glorified in everything that we do
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What do we make much of your cross? Because you're worthy of it You're worthy of it.
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God We give you the praise the glory and the honors in jesus name. I pray amen Amen.
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Amen. Thank you everybody for watching We do pray that god was glorified and we pray that you were edified and helped in what was said
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Remember that jesus is king go live in the victory of christ go speak with the authority of christ And continue to go out there and share the good gospel of christ.