The Laborers' Podcast- Church Hurt

Church Hurt as a Real but Varied Experience

Welcome to the laborers podcast tonight. We're going to be talking about church hurt. We hope you can stay with us. Welcome again to the laborers podcast. The comment section is up and on and it's waiting for you.

We would love to hear from you. Let us know that you're watching. Say hello. Ask a question. Give us a critique. We'll try to do the best we can answer your questions. If not, we'll get back to you if we can pray for.

You'd love to be able to do that tonight. We have a serious talk a talk that we want to take serious because it's it's I. Would say that it's a pretty widespread spread.

Issue.

But before we get to our serious talk, we have a request. We want to offer something to you for your Cloud. I'll just let you take it over and share something with us. All right, so men.

Do you have a beard? No, if not.

Why?

You're a man. So in any case over to my This side of me over to the over this way. We have big John now. Big John had a beard up until this week and for his job He had to shave it off. But big John in a time of in a downtime begin to create what's called big John beard balm.

Now just in case you're not aware of how to use beard balm What you need is beard balm also called beard butter. You can use oil but manly men use big John beard balm. What you need next is a good comb or a good brush.

Now I'm gonna demonstrate very quickly. Just give your beard just a little scuff up there. Just a little scuff up like sandpaper. Take your beard balm scoop you out some on your finger. Put it in the palm of your hand rub it in.

First.

Tone down those wild mustache hairs tone those down and then just rub it into your beard. Now I need my towel as well, but I don't have a towel. Oh, no. What do I do? Well, I'm a man. So I just use my shirt.

Next take your comb lightly comb through your beard smooth it gently out and look how fantastic that looks. You too can have a great beard with big John's beard balm.

Wait, where's the cheering section? You got that button that you when you introduce folks you'd they cheer. Oh, that's a video so no.

I don't have it. I don't have it available right now.

Well, I'm cheering for you John. That was excellent.

Good job John. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the rest of this conversation.

Man I wish I had my beard still.

Oh.

Well, I I'm looking forward to the conversation tonight, um, I know it's gonna be a serious conversation and it. It's kind of bleeding from Conversation we were having off-air. I don't know what we would call that off podcast before the podcast pre podcast show.

You know. We suffer and we go through things and and God has given us this this brotherhood and this relationship that we have with one another and I'm just tremendously grateful for the relationship that we have.

That we can come to each other talk with each other keep each other accountable encourage one another pray for one another in our times of doubt and suffering partnerships and.

We.

Go to scripture and we encourage one another. And I'm tremendously grateful for those conversations and. So let's jump right into to church hurt. And I even seen a video this week on tick-tock a lady expressing her Experience with church hurt now.

We we want to take this subject seriously. Because we know it affects a lot of people. But I also want to be balanced in our conversation. And so when you hear me ask the question and you hear us answering the questions.

Please don't take offense to the questions that are asked or how they are asked. And how we may answer. Because I want to. I want us to be balanced. I want us to to think about this pastoral pastorally critically.

And not just be one-sided on the issue. Because when it comes to church hurt or or any kind of relational.

Hurt.

You have one far end of the spectrum where you May have let's say physical abuse where you need to go to the police. And then on the far other far end of the spectrum you may have I Got my feelings hurt because my expectations weren't met and.

So.

You have legitimate and sometimes you have Illegitimate reasons for your your hurting and and we want to be honest with ourselves What is this hurt that I'm feeling? Is it legitimate? Is it biblical? How do I deal with it?

So With that being said and our aim being biblical balance. Let's go to the first question and Tyler since you're on the top. Let's go with you first. All right. Yeah, how can we determine evaluate? whether a person is expressing a legitimate matter or is elevating personal preference.

Discernment, Scripture, and Legitimate Offense

Okay, so how will we determine if it is a legitimate thing or if it is preference? Well, like like you said, this is a this is a multi-faceted issue. This is not a one-size-fits-all. This is a mirror with multiple faces that this it's very broad it branches out in different corridors and such but in terms of general principle, I Think if we were to ask the question, how do you determine if this is preference or not?

I think that comes down to discernment and Evaluation when we when we pray like the Psalms try my heart God. See if there is any wicked way in me test me. Oh god. Judge me. Oh god. These are recurring themes in the Psalms.

Point me in the way everlasting point me to what point me away from what grieves you and I've been pondering first John chapter 5 In preparation for this podcast. I've been Working through first John for Pretty much this week and I jumped ahead a couple chapters.

I'm still in personal chapter 1 but chapter 5 Says by this we know that we love the children of God when we love God and obey his commandments. I mean verse 2 of chapter 5 and What John what John is bringing two elements together that I think are very important to this conversation is the love of God and the love of the church and Those are things that should and ought to work together.

That because we love God we love the church and because we love the church we love God. And when we come to the point of being hurt by the church. Often we are grieved. When the church is not what it ought to be.

You know that the church should be the thing we love the most. As far as earthly terms go that there is a different way that the Christian approaches love where we approach people and concepts. Because we don't love Just in that brotherly sense with phileo as the Greek said but we agape we love as God loves the part of what Christ does is Call he beckons us to a different kind of love and this is the love we have for each other if we're in Christ.

And so when there is church hurt when there is genuine Hurt there that is not just a preference thing. It stems from being grieved that the church we love so much is a mess.

Ma 'am. Amen Yeah.

Any any other comments on that question? Oh, I would say and of course correct me if I'm wrong. If we're trying to evaluate legitimacy and preference and we're looking in the mirror. To help ourselves go in the right direction.

My mind goes to Matthew 18 where we're talking about church discipline and and relating with someone who has sinned against us and I think about the very beginning. And we're asking ourselves, you know, is this How do I determine.

How do I determine. And Matthew 18 verse 15 says if your brother sins. You know not. Not that he. Doesn't that he doesn't he doesn't that you don't like or it's not your preference, but it's a biblical sin.

You can find a you know, your verse your chapter your verse. It's it's a command. It's a sin that you can find it's a biblical sin and so I I think that's one way that we can help evaluate Legitimacy preference versus something in Scripture.

All right, big John you ready. Thanks, sir. How can we determine or evaluate whether my hurt should be seen as a conviction or.

Or.

Legitimate abuse.

So I think it's it's gonna it's gonna kind of Go back to our starters is is. Your discrete is your grievance one that? Pulls you towards Christ by way of highlighting a sin as you were talking about out of Matthew.

It's just it's just a it's just a matter of church discipline That you don't want to hear right? Or is this a matter of in this case you said Conviction. So I was thinking about when you said that when Peter got through in Acts chapter 2 He gives his his speech verse 37.

Now when they heard this there appears to their heart and they said to Peter and the rest of the Apostles Brethren, what shall we do? So if I I believe that if you're being honest and you look at the critique or you look at the scenario that you find yourself in if it is one that Bolsters Christ and lifts Christ up if it is one that is biblical.

Whatever is being said if you can find it, you know in the pages of Scripture.

Then.

You might be suffering from conviction and not church hurt but if what you're listening to is something that is man-centered and Bolsters either a leader in the church or it doesn't have to be a leader in the church but to anybody and you can't rightly discern that this is a matter of Spiritual discipline or any other any other spiritual conflict then you might.

You might have yourself something that falls outside of Scripture and can be painful and will be hurtful. And that I guess that's the only key I could use to differentiate between the two.

Yeah, well, do you think it's you think it's important that we find this balance that we we make sure we're heading the biblical direction and not just being hurt over our preference issue.

Absolutely, and like that like Tyler and John have said, you know, it's not to minimize the legitimacy of Of the reality in the reality of being hurt by church people and in the problem there lies. And I'll say the problem there lies with not with God's Church but with the people as A general rule.

This is not the most spiritual definition, but as a general rule people are stupid. People are stupid and we're already working. Yeah, people are stupid because of sin. Sin makes us all and this is not again.

I'm including me. Sin makes us all stupid and it makes us do Selfish and irrational things. And so the real again the reality is there but like John said we got the key for us as Christians because we're talking about Christians actual born-again believers in Jesus Christ who have been hurt by church people.

Our.

Responsibility is always to go to the book. That's right. The book is our standard. There's nowhere else for us to go outside of the book.

What I prefer I think it's fantastic. I want to add to that if I can. It's natural for the for the gospel of Christ to be offensive to the flesh. It is natural to hear the gospel and the first recourse is to how dare you talk to me that way or how dare you?

Say something that so cuts me to the point, you know, and I think that's where maybe In a position and brother Claude, you know, there's probably better than maybe anybody on here. That's where it's important to encourage folks to be reading their word their sales to have a relationship with God so that so that and to encourage this this atmosphere of Brotherhood that should exist naturally within the church so that you can take something I've said if you want to and Bounce it off of somebody else and say do you think brother John was being hateful to me or do you think that he was? being loving in what he said and Let let somebody else Open up the word and and show them maybe I could have used kinder hands or maybe somebody could have used kinder hands and.

And if that's the case then let somebody else teach them the truth and love in a way that they can Receive it because it doesn't matter whether they hear from me or anybody else as long as they hear it and receive it.

Yeah, amen, and I'm sorry. Go ahead. No. Well, I was just gonna say listening you guys talk.

It's just it it's reminding me and it's causing me to reflect on the conversation as you guys were counseling me prior to the podcast. Because I'm listening to myself. Speak to you guys and telling you my situation and telling you what's going on.

And the more I listen to myself the more I hear myself and how it's about me. And. You know, I'm pointing out all the all the circumstances that are happening around me that that seem to that I'm viewing as.

Maybe against me or negatively towards me. And and I'm realizing as I'm listening you guys talk. It's me not my circumstances that need to change which you know. They may you know individuals they they may need to change but that's not my issue.

My issue is myself and how I view Christ and how I view that situation in light of Christ and so. It's this conversation, you know, it's helping me out and that's in that area and again to.

Like tag team with John right there. What John just said to he ended with truth and love, right? I know we're on the truth and love network, but it we're talking about church hurt in light or in context of Born-again believers in the church who have been hurt.

Truly hurt. And so our responsibility again going back to the word is like John said Truth in love sharing truth in love with one another. He gave the example, you know, maybe he said something. He was taken offensive.

Let's say I was offended. Well, I go to so-and-so and I say what do you think about this what he said? Well, so and so may know John better than I and say oh, that's just you know, he was just. That's just how he talks right.

That's just how he he communicates. Don't take it personally. Right, or they're gonna say hey, I don't think that was right. So individually First step church discipline is one-on-one go so I would go because what we want to do here tonight is not only Accentuate or highlight the reality of church hurt.

But we want to point to the way that your heart and your mind can be healed in Jesus Christ according to the word and so my Responsibility there would be to go to John and say hey John.

Look I.

Took offense to what you said. Can you explain to me a little bit more about what you what you meant by what you said? Did you mean it. And and ask be specific because the problem is with our communication is it's too general.

We you know, I can say what you said offended me. Well, John said 255 ,000 words between the time that I came to him. And I'm going back to him to address the issue. So be specific say, you know, this is what I took offense at.

And then again, like you said like you said at the beginning Rob. Is it just a personal offense or is it a genuine sin against us? Right a genuine sin in. Then again, there's the discipline of saying hey look I recognize, you know I wouldn't want to go to John and just say what I said a minute ago, right John.

I realize you're stupid. That sin makes you act stupid right as though I don't sin but we are taught right we are taught to go to our brother in love in in our brother in turn is to be Responding in love.

So we're communicating both sides both ways in love with one another. The listen to what the Apostle Paul taught the Philippian Church in chapter 2. Philippians chapter 2 he said therefore if there is any consolation in Christ if any comfort of love if any fellowship of the Spirit if there is any affection and mercy.

Fulfill my joy. By doing what by being like-minded and having the same love. That's the love of God the love of Christ having the same love. Be of one accord and one mind. One accord in one mind and then he said let nothing be done through selfish ambition or vainglory or conceit.

But in lowliness of mind that each one esteem the other better than himself. Other better than himself and let each one of you not look out not only for his own interests. But also for the interests of others.

And then guess what Paul goes into the great hymn let this mind be in you. Which was also in Christ Jesus who being in the form of God did not think it robbery to be equal with God, but he the Son of God he made himself of no reputation and he took upon him the form of a servant and being found in fashion as a Man, he humbled himself and he became obedient unto death even the death of the cross.

Wherefore God also has highly exalted him and God has given him Jesus the name that is above every name that at the name of Jesus. Every knee should bow of things in heaven of things in the earth and things under the earth and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is the Lord to the glory of God the Father the church.

Is.

The problems come when the church gets we get our eyes off of our Lord and we get our eyes on ourselves and we get our eyes on our brothers and sisters again again. I know we're supposed to look out for one another on Interests, but our chief aim and our chief goal and our chief end as Christian men and women is to look unto The Lord and we will always get in trouble.

We'll always make a stinking mess when we get our eyes off the Lord.

I.

Was gonna I don't say that's yeah now that I was my brother called something or anybody as far as that goes. So in a case Where it is that that's that's a that's an example of where this is a Christian Behaving in a manner and and the things that they're saying are taken out of context.

What if It's the opposite. What if it's leadership that really isn't genuinely Christian and they have done something that is hurtful. What do you do then if it's if we'll take off the table things that you need to alert the authorities on but things that are said there that are hurtful because.

Somebody's taking the Word of God out of context and they're using it out of place and they've done something damaging from behind the pulpit then what would the. What would the Church go or do if their pastor is put them in that because that's where the biggest church heard I've seen comes from.

When to Leave a Toxic Church

Yeah, well, so.

Puritan Anthony Burgess wrote about 150 sermons on John chapter 17 Christ's prayer for unity amongst the brethren and he once said that's in that scenario You don't leave the church until God does. That when God is not in the pulpit when they are not abiding in Christ and leading the church and shepherding the flock.

It's not a church. When we talk about loving the church and we talk about some of this love is defined and The way that Christians love is defined and sometimes the church that we love is not the biblical church sometimes Sometimes the church that we love is not the church that we're at because we're in the wrong place.

Like if that if that answers your question, I'm trying to put myself in a position somebody may be listening. I've never by God's grace. I've never found myself in that position. But if someone was listening and say they don't have a church around the corner that they can just attend to maybe they're in a place up north or out west where there's.

Where churches are few and it and it and family may go to that church. It can get messy. Church can get messy because the more people that are in church the more opportunities. Y 'all because the cloud said people can be dumb.

And and the more people that you include into a an equation the more complex the equation becomes. So If and I'm taking an assumption. But in the event that we're talking about somebody who has got their eyes off of Christ and on to something else.

And they're in a position to where they're hurting people. Is the only recourse a man has to leave that body of believers to their faith? So, do you think that's the only alternative that's the only that's the only answer that question then is to is to drag up.

That's a wrong phrase. That's. It's an iron worker phrase is to leave is to is to sound I'm gonna move my membership to another town. Or do we think there's a discipline? I.

Think part of it is Matthew 18 with if he's offended you you go with him. You go to him you go to him with a brother you go with an elder. And if he still does not receive this reproof then under normal circumstances that would be brought before the church, but in a Hostile toxic church environment that may not be something that happens.

That might not happen and so at that point I think it does become time to seriously Earnestly pray about. Is this where I'm supposed to set roots. Understand that understand. Is this a church that God is releasing me from?

So in in the Baptist Church, it's it's autonomous, right? Is that the right word brother Rob?

It's what?

Autonomous, it's it's its own entity each each Baptist Church. Do I need to turn the volume up or no? I just didn't catch that word. You're good. They're there. They're isolated from other churches most of the time, aren't they?

Usually they have their own bylaws and their own things. So now in in my church. It's part of a a bit of a centralized more form of government in the case where there was a preacher that was Had gone rogue.

I can always go to my district overseer. It's my district overseer could go to him with the state overseer or something like that and they could they could talk amongst themselves and See if this is a case where I've taken something out of context or if in fact there's a there's an issue of seeing what needs to be dealt with and You know, the overseers have the authority at that point to remove this man if if that were the case.

Because I think about Again church can become messy say you're at a church that Will get real right close to it. So I've worked with guys who've been in a situation, which is partly why I'm asking parents and family built the church.

It was on family land. It's in the neighborhood and a pastor was appointed who just absolutely You know fumbled in his responsibilities, but there's nobody he answers to Congregation doesn't vote him out or voting man.

He's been appointed and The only the only Avenue they had was to leave but he had family that didn't want to leave. They they just assumed stay now. I would think there's a certain amount of fleshly reasons involved in that person that decides to stay in the wrong case.

I just trying to put something out there that y 'all can flesh out having more knowledge than I do about it So that somebody who's watching may be helped by.

Well continuing off of my personal experience in that that realm. It was not something they were willing to bring before the church we were told to just just deal with that basically and it became a scenario where We couldn't heal in In that congregation and it was not fair to the rest of the church to bring that hurt through the door every Sunday.

And so it was our conviction that we needed to to leave. That we were released from this body. Knowing full well that it would put a lot of strain on the church because of how integrated we were into serving.

Mm-hmm that it would Wreak some havoc a little bit and they would they would have to adjust and they'd have to shift and that that that was a hard call to make. But the reality. The reality was We couldn't heal in that environment and it wasn't fair to keep bringing that through the door every Sunday.

And so we we left and we went to a church where we we could heal to a more more sound church and I guess in finding that balance a lot of it I think has to do with Again with evaluation and with the the layers of Matthew 18 with going to deacons and confiding in Those who have the charge.

That it's that there are built-in sounding boards for. How am I perceiving this right? Am I responding to this in a way that is?

Right.

Am I caught up on my feelings here or my feelings caught up in how it is? But again, I still come back to 1st John. We know that we love God and we love the brethren and sometimes that gets really hard to.

Even when we're talking about leaving a church. Because we still love the church.

Right and you love you love the people in the church. And I'm and I'll just you know, let's we'll just talk straight up, you know. But the love is not so much there for those who are sinning against the church as in The case you were talking about Tyler and John the example you were giving, you know in the example of a pastor Misapplying misappropriating God's Word that is In the Old Testament, there's a statement that's made as Goes the priest so goes the people and and that's the case the people.

Should God's people. I mean not the people. God's people God's people sadly just because of the way that the way that churches have Formed the way that churches have operated. They've broken. And I know I'm pointing out the problem.

But again, the solution is going back to the book churches have Moved away from the biblical pattern of The church in general, right? Number one people aren't taught to love Christ. Right because Christ is the head of the church.

I mean people people are in love with the hands. They're in love with the feet. They're in love with the thumb. They're in love with the ear. They're in love with the eyes. But then well, I shouldn't even use the facial features, right?

Because if they were looking at the head, they would see Christ. They were in love with the hands. They're in love with the feet as is so often the example use where the hands and feet of Jesus. We need to be looking at the head in Loving the head with all our heart with all our soul with all our mind with all our strength.

Realizing that he were taught in the scriptures that he gave himself for the church. And that it is his body and no man. The scripture says no man has ever hated his own flesh. Right. I mean what we don't realize is that when When when we sin against our brothers or our brothers sin against us.

It's an act of treachery. It's it's an act of treachery against Christ. I mean, I don't think to myself if this was a hammer I don't think to myself lay my hand on the table. I'm gonna whack it. Right because why because that's gonna go Straight through my body and the whole body is gonna feel the pain the whole body's gonna feel the pain.

We don't think about that, but but our.

Our.

General the the general Direction of the church has not been loving our head with everything we got because he gave himself for us. But it's about becoming this or becoming that we want to we want the church to do this.

So we do this we want the church to do that and do that when in reality, it's not about what we want. It's about what he has done. And that's all that's all our responsibility is. I mean good grief. It's like Adam and Eve in the garden.

They only had one thing to do. They had one thing leave the tree alone. You had one job. Yeah, and we've got one thing to do and that is look unto our Savior the old songs is turn your eyes upon Jesus look full in his wonderful face and the things of this world Will grow dim in the light of his glory in his grace.

So again this general stream of the church. I'm sorry Rob. I'll try to. I'm trying to hush. I'm trying.

Preach home bro.

But seriously but so the church has has had that general drift and it's and it's like an Evolution is taking place. Centripetal force has kicked in right in the church runs on autopilot and it just keeps rolling keeps rolling keeps rolling keeps rolling keeps rolling when.

It's things like what we're talking about tonight that ought to cause us to literally come to a full stop.

Be.

Content with silence be Content with calm be content with the quiet. Because there's sometimes like Elijah God he ain't trying to speak to us in an earthquake. He ain't trying to speak to us in the wind all the time.

Sometimes we got to get still to be still and to recognize that he is God.

And.

Just listen to that still small voice. And by the way that voice through the Word of God is still and small at times. Sometimes it'll shake us Sometimes it'll blow it'll blow us back. But it's still the same word and it's still the same truth.

So we got to go to the book. Go to the book.

God forbid I ever stop anybody like you brother who is but I wanna. I don't wanna. Who is taking. Right, right, but but you are you are taking us to that which is Most important and that's the Lord Jesus Christ, right?

I do. I do not want to stop anybody who is who's taking us to our first priority and that's Jesus Christ. And I wanted to go back to Something that you were saying earlier.

Because.

Biblical reason or not. We shouldn't just leave the church we should go through these steps that we were talking about. But but but before we even do the steps we need to go to where Claude was taking us and.

And what I was saying earlier is something that we really need to flesh out and that is I'm not looking at myself. I'm not looking at the other person. I'm looking at Christ and flesh out what that what that means.

I'm if if that pastor or that person in in the body. They are they they have hurt me or they have done something. They have committed a sin done something unbiblical. I'm not looking for their Correction so that church can be more comfortable for me.

I'm looking if I'm looking at Christ, then I'm looking for their their healing their correction so that it is Not shaming the name of God so that is not blaspheming the gospel. So that it's not taking away from the Word of God so that it's bringing Reconciliation in our relationship so that our relationship can point to Christ.

If if I'm the person that somebody is coming to and I'm looking at Christ when they come to me I'm not gonna say how dare you come to me.

Right.

I'm gonna say is there anything that. Even if it was perceived wrongly, I want to know what it is so I can make that correction.

I.

Want to receive it. I want to hear it so that we can make things right because I'm looking to Christ and I'm gonna point to him. And then we can start the steps. We can start the steps after we realize we don't need to be looking to each other and what it means to look to Christ.

And and I'm so grateful Claude that you were you keep bringing us to Christ. You keep bringing us to Jesus and how important that is and I think many of these other questions that we're going to get to are just Continuation of the conversation that we've already started.

So the next question and whoever wants to jump in here Matthew 7 talks and Jesus talks about a good tree bears good fruit. So that's kind of the expectation of a church, but but then comes this this church hurt.

Abuse church hurt whatever you want to call it. How do I understand what's happening here in light of that passage. My expectation is it's Matthew chapter 7. A good tree is gonna bear good fruit. But now there's hurt in the church.

There's abuse. There's something a miss a rye. How do I understand that?

Good Fruit, Bad Fruit, and Recognizing False Shepherds

Well, I'll since they're silence. I'll jump in again. Because when we look at the text What Jesus the context of that verse that you're talking about is not just starting on its own Enter by the narrow gate and then Jesus says specifically Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.