Trip Report, Reviewing Jake Brancatella’s Muslim Presentations

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00:33

Greetings. Welcome to The Dividing Line. We are live in our regular studio here in Phoenix, Arizona.

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I did plan on doing more while I was gone. I had some challenges, learned a lot of stuff, but had to invest a lot of time in stuff that wasn't expected.

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So that's why we didn't do that. But definitely glad to be here with you now, here.

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But before we get to our topic today, normally when I've traveled in the past, I have given you some reports so you can know what in the world we're doing.

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I'd like to do that in this instance. I only went to Pryor, Oklahoma.

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Everybody knows where Pryor is, right? It's on the far side of Tulsa from here.

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I have linked, and I need to put it on the blog, but I have linked on Twitter to the sermon audio recordings of the presentations

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I did at Pryor Grace Life Church with Pastor Melton.

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He had asked me to speak on the glories of the doctrines of grace. I did what

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I could. I looked at the first sermon. It went almost two hours, so sorry about that. My thanks to the nursery workers.

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But I did what I could to attempt to bridge the gap that exists in my mind.

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Maybe I'm the only one that's having this problem, but with everything that's going on today, with all the changes and developments and what's happening, sometimes it sort of feels like, you know, the stuff we used to talk about, is that still relevant today?

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Does that still matter today? And if what we used to talk about is true, then yes, it still matters.

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It's simply a matter of recognizing the foundational and presuppositional nature of our theology to our worldview, and that in reality, the reason that so many people are responding so differently to the headlong rush into a simple insanity.

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There's literally a guy who won the gold medal in the decathlon in the

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Olympics in the 70s running for governor of the state of California as a woman.

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It's like a bad LSD dream, I guess, from what

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I've read. I don't know, but we're seeing all this stuff, and how people are reacting to it is a function of whether they had a fully formed theology and Christian worldview, or whether it was only partially formed.

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And therefore, there are parts missing, and so it shifts, and it's unstable, and you're looking for stuff to sort of fill in the gaps type of stuff.

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So anyway, if you'd like to hear a discussion of the doctrines of grace that ties them to the current situation and why it's relevant, especially that first sermon where we're dealing with the sovereignty of God and the nature of man, then look those up.

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Grace Life Prior, I think, on Facebook, and then Sermon Audio has it as well, the audio, and hopefully they will be useful to you.

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Now, first travel I've done for speaking in a very, very long time.

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I really did miss that, and there in prior

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Oklahoma, I would spend an hour after each sermon standing and talking to the line of people.

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Rich has seen the line of people in the past, but that was at places like G3. I remember after the debate with Trent Horn or Adnan, both, but I think especially after the one with Trent, I mean, the line, it was an hour and a half, two hours, something like that, that we stood talking with people.

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And so obviously it wasn't that long, but we literally had people drive from multiple states away for one session, just for one session.

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And that was special. That reminded me that this ministry, in just over two years, this ministry is 38 years old.

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We're going to have year 40 coming up here. And I should be able to remember that because next year will be my 40th wedding anniversary.

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So maybe the long -term memory will kick in and we'll actually do something about it, figure out what can we do for four decades.

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But this is the time when we should be reaping what we've sown for 40 years.

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And I hope you understand this. Now, the folks there in prior could be moving to a new building in August.

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And so, you know, this is the same building that I've gone to. I've forgotten how many times

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I've been there. I think this may have been fourth time, third, fourth, fifth, somewhere in that range.

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And, oh, by the way, I know I've got to do this. I didn't do this for you,

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Rich. You can get to do this later. But y 'all know that Pastor Melton, see us back here?

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This was a gift from Pastor Melton, I don't know, a couple of years ago, when he first retired from law enforcement.

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He wanted to have something to do. And I don't know why he decided that this was the thing to do, but he got himself a forge.

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And as all generations of people before him started watching

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YouTube videos, that's how I learned how to tie a bow tie. That's how everyone has ever learned how to tie a bow tie, is they've watched

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YouTube videos. And so he had made this one for me years ago, and this kydex sheath and stuff like that.

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And that's really cool. And so it's been sitting back here for quite some time, sort of showing it off for everybody. You can see the

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Melton forge knife. But the brother has not stopped his studies.

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And I knew he was going to do this. But, well, I'll just show it to you.

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He has moved up in the world a great deal.

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I should show you the pictures, because he sent me eventually a whole thing of the forging.

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And especially, I don't know how in the world you do that handle and make it.

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But of course, you know, the Damascus steel with copper in it and then copper for the guard and three rings of the triune turquoise there.

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It is amazing. That's beautiful.

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And so I'm very, very thankful to have that. Once again, thanks very, very much for that.

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So you've got that element of things when you get to travel and stay with folks and the personal thing.

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You can't transfer something like that through electronic Zoom meetings. But anyway, when

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I first walked in the first two nights, because they were evening meetings and then we had a morning,

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Sunday morning. Same thing happened both times.

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Same thing happened both times. As soon as I walk in, I walk into the back at an angle because the room is much wider than it is deep.

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And both times as I walk in, my eyes catch hold of a young girl.

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And I can tell both nights, different girls, somewhere between my

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Clementine and Cadence age wise, somewhere between eight and eleven -ish, approximately.

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And after a while, you start recognizing homeschool families, you know, that had to park their 14 passenger van somewhere down the road.

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And that's most of the folks at Apologia, obviously. And both nights, different young ladies.

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I see them see me. And there's this look of excitement on their face.

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And I immediately know this is a homeschooled kid. And this poor kid has had to watch

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The Dividing Line their entire life. And so they are meeting someone that they have heard speak over and over and over again.

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And they can't contain themselves. I mean, they're just bouncing around. And of course, eventually what happens,

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I think the second night, the first night I think I met that family afterwards, I think the second night they came up before we got started because I got there much earlier.

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And, you know, they get shy, but dad comes up and introduces mom. By the way, dads and especially young married men, introduce your wives.

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Don't forget that part. I mean, I just can't tell you how many times I've seen guys just completely fumble that one.

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Just remember to introduce your wives. Of course, there's been the really, really, really bad situations where there's this lady standing behind the guy.

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And she has the phone ready for the picture and the whole nine yards. And I'm like, is this your wife? No, that's my mom.

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Okay, well, that was awkward. That's happened more than once too. Whoops.

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So that's why I also say please introduce whoever it is to be taking the picture. So I don't do that, make that kind of mistake.

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So anyway, though, that would actually be a compliment. If I said, is this your mother?

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What's the wife then? Someone's gonna become a Buddhist after that or something like that.

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Anyway, so normally they came up, and you can just see the excitement.

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And I try to sort of focus in upon the ones I can tell are sort of bouncing around. And, you know, what's your name?

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And, and it was just, I hadn't had that opportunity for a long, long time.

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And it was exciting. It was really neat to have that opportunity. And I think maybe the first night, that's why

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I went so long. I remember I finally looked at my watch. And I'm like, is it really that time?

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Oh, goodness, I'm sorry. But maybe that was that was part of what did it.

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But some brothers, pastors, drove from Arkansas, and multiple states away, sometimes just to be there one night.

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And so this was a test run to see if I could utilize a methodology

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I've never used before. And that is I drove a what turned out to be a rather older, sort of rickety

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RV and doing the KOA campground thing.

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Some of you guys have done that for all your lives. I never did it. The only time I'd ever been in a, what we called a camper back in the old days, was on a, on that hunting trip

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I did in Alaska back in, I don't know, was that 2006, seven, eight, somewhere around there.

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I forget when it was. That was the only time I ever did anything like that. And I wasn't driving. I was just along for the, along for the trip.

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So there was a learning curve. But what I discovered is

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I really enjoyed it and was able to pick it up and figure out how stuff works.

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And most importantly, slept like a rock in that thing, especially when it was raining.

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That was really nice. Or when it was windy, that was really nice. Yeah, it's, it is very doable.

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Very, very doable. So our thinking down the road, just to let you know, we have reactivated the travel fund on the website, aomin .org.

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You can go to the travel fund. And basically this is what we're,

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I'm not going to get into details right now until we have more specifics. But if I can, what we want to do, for example,

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I need to get to G3 in literally a matter of weeks. I mean, it comes up fast.

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And all this has to do with traveling and masks and vaccines and the coming vaccine passports and the fact that it won't be the government that mandates this.

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It will be the airlines. They are going to be the enforcers of all this stuff.

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And I would love, I would love to think that this is all going to go away and everything's going to return to normal.

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But since it's never been about a virus, I know that's not what's going to happen. And maybe

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I need to just do a program where I just lay out what my position on these things is and my reasoning, which

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I've obviously spent a lot of time working through. I am not, I was going to say,

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I'm not an anti -vaxxer, but since Merriam -Webster decided to change the definition, since we now have the new speak dictionary where you can change definitions overnight.

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That is one problem with electronic books is it's much harder to change the language with printed books because then you have to print new books.

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Electronically, you can just, it's done. But Merriam -Webster changed the definition of anti -vaxxer from someone who is opposed to vaccines and to government mandates or to any mandates demanding that you receive any particular vaccine.

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Well, as I've pointed out, I've received lots of vaccines. I took a bunch of shots before I went to Zambia because there's all sorts of interesting diseases in Zambia that I really don't want to have, but they are all developed over time, not at warp speed.

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And as much as I've been a Trekkie my entire life, warp speed when it comes to medicine is not my thing.

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And so I want much more safety information than is currently available, even though it's being demanded that you inject this into your body.

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And I hope I'm wrong about this. I really am. I really hope I'm wrong about this, but I just get the feeling that there's going to be more coming.

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More in the way of vaccines, more in the way of alleged variants. We'll see.

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I hope I'm wrong. I pray I'm wrong. But if this is being used the way they think it is, that's what's going to be coming.

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The point is, I don't want to miss these opportunities. And maybe I can only go to red states.

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I have to somehow find a way across New Mexico. That is the problem with that.

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Or go north and then you go through southern Colorado, but that's still Colorado. There's two blue states bordering us here.

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But I don't want to miss these opportunities to do the conferences.

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And so the idea is, like when I'm going to G3, that's a long drive.

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I'm not sure exactly how far it is, but it's a long drive. Break it up into 400 some odd mile distances.

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And if churches are willing to do something during the week, you obviously can't do this with just doing a

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Friday, Saturday, Sunday thing. But if there are churches that are willing to host a

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Tuesday night thing, then I could literally go from church to church to church all the way across the

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United States and stay in a

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KOA. I liked the KOA. It was nice. It had exactly what it was. The Amarillo KOA was a little bit more like a mud bog.

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But that was because this whole trip, I drove through more heavy downpours and rain on this trip, literally, than I have seen in Arizona for five years.

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Just in a matter of days, there was more precipitation than I saw on this trip than I've seen for five years.

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Partly because we are in a drought, drought, drought, drought, drought, drought in Arizona. But we're talking mud.

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I got stuck in the mud once. I had to get pulled out of the mud by Pastor Melton and his truck. Because even the folks in Oklahoma were saying, this is bad.

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We're getting floodwaters here. So anyway, other than that, you just get there, you get your spot, pull in, hook up.

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Great. And I've been told that we could get a pretty decent mobile internet setup.

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Yes. You're just padding the RichCam. Just making sure that it's working.

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Tweaking. Okay. He's padding on his own camera. It's not even on the air. Anyways, I've been told you can get a decent internet thing.

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And that would mean ability to do remote broadcasts.

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Not the way we did it this time. You saw the little dividing dash that I did. I don't know how long it took me.

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It took me no time to record that. I'm not sure that I could remember again, how

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I managed to finally get that transferred off of my iPad. It was, let's try this.

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Let's try that. There would be a better way to do this. But I could really see doing that every other month, something like that.

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And getting to meet a lot of folks that way. And a lot of the smaller churches, that's where I like to go.

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Bigger churches tend to keep you away from people and stuff like that. And I'd rather get to meet folks and take pictures and sign books and answer questions and stuff like that.

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So obviously there's a cost involved in doing that.

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I mean, KOA is a lot expensive, but gas sure is. But we have the opportunity to do it.

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Don't know how long we'll have the opportunity to do it. Let's pursue it.

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So we'll be giving you some more information about that as we have specifics.

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We've got to do something fairly quickly, because like I said, there's stuff coming up and there's opportunities. If I had the rig to go with right now,

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I've got opportunities this summer that I could take advantage of and I would like to do that. So the travel fund link is active again at AOMin .org

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if you want to help us with that. Oh, well, it's posted.

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Oh, okay. All right. Sorry. I thought that was Derek. Anyway, so with that said, one of the things that is also an advantage of this means of travel is

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I get hours and hours and hours to listen to things. Very, very useful.

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And I took advantage of that on this trip. In fact, it is amazing to me,

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I must say. I was okay.

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I wasn't watching them, but I was listening to the audio of YouTube videos driving all the way to Holbrook, Arizona, which takes you through some real desolate areas.

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And they never stopped streaming all the way. And when you think about it,

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I'm old enough to remember before my first pager, for crying out loud, let alone the idea of somehow being able to watch videos on a device in a car driving through mountains.

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It's like, come a long ways. But I don't always listen to stuff that I need to be remembering for debates and things like that, but I get a lot of that stuff in.

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A few weeks ago, Yusuf Ismail down in South Africa contacted me on Facebook.

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By the way, that is the absolute worst way in the world. Even if you're a friend.

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I found a Facebook message last night from a friend asking me for some help on a book.

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And this is the first I had seen that message. It was from October of last year. Need it in like a week.

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That's not the way to contact me. Facebook has always been an unfavorite of mine.

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Just the interface, the methodology, notifications, just don't like it.

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But anyway, Yusuf had reached out through Facebook and said, have you heard of the

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Muslim metaphysician? And I had not.

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And he said, I think, would you be interested in doing an online debate?

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That's how most debates are being done these days. You've got your studio finished, things like that.

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And I wrote back and I said, well, I'll have to track down some videos or something. I'm not just going to say sure and end up with some of the people

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I've debated before. Honestly, at my age now, I just go, yeah, no,

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I don't think so. So he sent me a couple links. And so as I'm heading out of town a week ago,

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Monday, I'm looking for this stuff on my phone. And I find a series called

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Testing the Trinity. I think it's five videos, as I recall. Now, I don't know anything about this fellow.

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So I'm sort of learning as we're going along. In essence, his name is

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Jake Brancatella. And over my days of traveling to and from Oklahoma, I listened to many, many hours of Jake's videos.

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I listened to all of the Testing the Trinity series and some debates and some other topics.

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I started looking around. I said, I wonder if there's, because he had mentioned in some context that he was a former

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Roman Catholic. I mean, Brancatella is not exactly Mohammed Hajib or something like that.

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And so I said,

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I wonder if there's a conversion video. Well, there was. And I listened to it again in a rain shower in Tulsa somewhere, as I recall.

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Rain shower with big trucks in construction zones. Not a good mix.

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My heart rate was a little bit higher than it needed to be in a number of places on this particular trip.

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But anyway, we made it through. But that's where I was when I listened. I was coming back when

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I listened to the conversion video, because I want to know some of the background. It did help with some of the context and stuff like that.

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So the first video I listened to was the logical problem of the Trinity, and I should probably listen to it again now that I have some of the background, because it really is important.

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Your mind tends to fill in some of the gaps in what someone is saying with what you expect the person to be trying to say.

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The more you know about the person, the more you learn about their position, then the more accurately your mind can fill in the gaps, or maybe there won't be any gaps.

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I think it's honestly one of the problems with how we communicate today.

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I've often had people say to me, well, why did you say such and so? And I'm like, I never said anything like that.

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And then when they sort of repeat back to me what they think they heard, I can sort of figure out what it was

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I was actually saying. And then I'm like, why would you interpret what I was saying there?

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And the reason generally is because they don't really have any idea what my background is, what

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I've done for 30 years. I've not read any of my books. And they're filling in from their own mind.

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And let's put it this way. Listening to Jake is not like listening to anybody who asked me questions.

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Literally, in almost any of my Muslim debates, the closest experience

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I've had was my debate with Abdullah Kunda, where Abdullah had read my book and attempted to present an argument that would communicate to Christians.

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I think part of this is because Jake was not raised as a Muslim. Sometimes there is simply a cultural barrier.

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Sometimes there's language and terminology that comes with having been raised in a particular perspective that actually makes it harder for you to communicate with someone outside of that particular perspective.

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And that's not the case with Jake. Now, he wasn't confirmed as Roman Catholic, and my feeling is he converted at a very young age, a relatively young age teenager.

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And so I'm not viewing him as someone from Catholic Answers that became a

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Muslim or something like that. No, and I don't think he would make that claim. But what makes

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Jake different is he has a bachelor's degree in philosophy. That's his focus.

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His focus is philosophy. So guess who he quotes most often from the Christian side? William Lane Craig.

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Now, William Lane Craig has serious theological issues. When you're a neo -Apollinarian

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Molanist who denies original sin, that's a long ways away from where I am, to be sure.

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But he obviously, in his studies, has read all sorts of sources.

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I was calling Rich up while we were driving. I have a feeling this book from Oxford is probably going to be ridiculously expensive.

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Look it up for me, because I'm driving. I'm not crazy enough to be trying to do

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Amazon while driving an RV that does not want to stay in the middle of the lane, partly because there's wind and this

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RV has the aerodynamics of a brick. So, I mean, I got hit with a few blasts that I really felt were going to turn me into Dorothy and Toto and we're not in Kansas anymore.

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I mean, they knocked me around good. But anyway, and they were expensive, especially the

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Oxford stuff. But he's reading a lot of people from a wide, wide variety.

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One of the things that I think would frustrate most Christians is, you know, he'll use the term Unitarian Christians.

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And of course, from our perspective, that's like a Sunni saying my brother Shiite or something like that, or even

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Druze or Ahmadi or whatever. Massively way out there someplace.

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But still using the name Christian, which is common in academia.

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But I don't know if it's best for him to do simply because as a Muslim, he draws lines as to who is and who is not a

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Muslim, I would assume. Even though, interestingly enough, oh,

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I didn't tell you this. Guess who he knows and in fact used to work with?

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Hamza Abdul -Malik. So the first guy I debated. They know each other and worked together for a while and have since parted ways.

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But I was like, oh, really? That's fascinating. Didn't didn't expect that connection to to exist.

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But anyway, so listening to these these conversations,

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Jake knows so much more about the Trinity than Muslims in general.

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There's almost a, in my experience, there is an unwillingness on the part of Muslims to read books on Christian theology.

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I think a lot of it goes back to and I narrated this, I narrated the Hadith in in my book on the

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Quran, where was it Uthman? I forgot which which companion was, but Muhammad comes in and Uthman is reading from the

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Old Testament. And Muhammad becomes angry and basically says, is not what

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I've given you sufficient? And so I think that's reflective of an attitude that I've seen on the part of many

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Muslims. They just they don't want to learn Christian theology. They just don't think it's worthwhile. And as a result, very often the argumentation and the objections are really against strawmen.

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They're not they're not overly in -depth arguments and things like that. Jake's obviously not going that direction and is reading widely.

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I didn't see a lot of evidence of reading widely in what I would consider to be the best, most consistent sources, but reading widely in in materials primarily on the

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Trinity and the Incarnation, issues of Christology. So he may be the first Muslim I've ever met that could tell you the difference between Apollinarianism, Nestorianism, and Eutychianism.

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Now the folks at Apologia can do that because I taught them that over the last

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Catechism question that we had from the

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Baptist Catechism because we went over the issue of the Incarnation. Actually, it was the question before that. But so we we went through the

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Hypostatic Union and the early Christological Errors and stuff like that.

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But the vast majority of evangelical Christians, and I like I said, I don't think

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I've ever met a Muslim that off top of their head could tell you what the differences between those perspectives are and the vast majority of evangelical

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Protestants can't either. Certainly the vast majority of Roman Catholics can't either. So that's refreshing on one sense.

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Obviously, there are things that are frustrating because I don't sometimes I don't even hear what would be my position being represented or even entering into the conversation and certainly making

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William Lane Craig representational, given his professed

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Neo -Apollinarianism. And then, of course, his defense saying, well, I believe in Sola Scriptura. And I'm like, yeah, you believe in in Sola Philosophia is what you believe in.

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But that's something we've dealt with many times. But still, it results in the conversation being very, very different.

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And I'll be honest with you, as I'm listening to stuff and he's primarily addressing Muslims, I'm going, how many

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Muslims really have the background to be able to understand what's being said here?

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I'm just trying to I'm putting myself in the position of many of the Muslims that I've talked to and going, what if what if I said the things he's saying they would have blown me off and whatever.

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So anyway, I'm going to look at the logical problem, the

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Trinity here in a moment. But I've invited Jake on the program we're going to use. We're all buttoned up over there yet?

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Oh, no. Well, now you got a week. So you're thinking what?

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On Tuesday. Good, good, good. That means that'll be a test run. But you didn't really like change how it all works is changing how it's mounted pretty much right and cable running and stuff like that.

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I hope. Oh, no, this is not looking good. Anyway, I've invited

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Jake on next week. Jake, it could be an experience. We'll find out here from what

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Rich is doing on the other side of the window here. But and what

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I first want to do is just sort of have a conversation about his perspectives and why he's focused upon what he's focused upon.

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And I think he realizes that he does Dawa very, very, very, very differently than the vast majority of Muslims that the perspectives he's bringing up are very, very different.

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So that could lead to a formal debate on a particular aspect of the

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Trinity or the incarnation or who knows on something in exegetical in the

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Quran or something. I don't know. We'll see. But so that'll be the first time we've done something like that in the new in the new studio.

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So should be pretty much the same time a week from today. We've arranged to do that.

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But let's take a look, if it could, at a screen capture.

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That I grabbed from Jake. Jake is not quite as technologically advanced as we are.

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Like he does a lot of. Videos. Of just him and the camera.

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He could use a green screen, for example. And more fast speed screen sharing and a few things like that.

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And so what he's what he's done is he's he's used a good old whiteboard.

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In fact, you can see the marker down there on the left hand corner. He's holding it there from my screenshot here.

39:28

I'm not sure, Jake, if you've seen my flip board in our in our nice big studio, but.

39:35

You have my permission to be jealous of my of my flip board, because it's yeah.

39:43

But you have to erase it just like this. So I suppose, you know, you can't have nearly as many technical difficulties with the whiteboard as we can have with our flip board,

39:51

I assure you. Anyway. Here is a screenshot that I took because I like I said,

39:58

I was listening to this. I didn't see it when I was driving. And I sort of assumed that there was like a

40:05

PowerPoint slide or something because I could tell he was reading from something. And so here it is.

40:12

The logical problem, the Trinity. What is it? And the question of their how many gods are there?

40:17

There are seven. Statements that are made, and I got the feeling that somebody.

40:26

That he debated early on. You presented these seven.

40:32

He seemed to say something once that it gave me that feeling. Again, I could be wrong about that, but that was that was what

40:39

I thought. But here are the seven statements. Number one, the father is

40:45

God. Number two, the son is God. Three, the Holy Spirit is God. Four, the father is not the son.

40:51

Five, the father is not the Holy Spirit. Six, the son is not the Holy Spirit. And seven, there is exactly one

40:57

God. Now. Obviously, I agree with each one of these statements have explicated them and debate published materials for a long, long time.

41:12

But as Christians, we need to. Have an accurate understanding of what each one of these statements is saying.

41:22

There is a context. For saying the father is God. And. The context includes a recognition.

41:37

Of the essence of deity.

41:45

Being eternal. And unlimited without limitation and therefore.

41:55

Different than the terminology we would use of a divine person.

42:01

Because we. Really, when you lay it out this way. You are assuming a bunch of stuff behind these seven statements.

42:12

These seven statements. Are developed theological statements. And I think the key.

42:22

To responding to all of Jake's material. Is. Found in the forgotten

42:29

Trinity. And. In my discussion of when I say

42:34

I am a biblical. Trinitarian. What is the source. Of a belief in the doctrines

42:41

Trinity. Well. If you think. If you believe in the doctrines of Trinity. Because you believe it is the best philosophical.

42:50

Explanation. Of creation. That's not where it came from. That's not its historical origin.

42:57

That's not where it came from. The reason to believe in the doctrines of Trinity. Is because of divine revelation.

43:04

Not just general revelation. General revelation according Romans chapter one.

43:10

Is limited to the knowledge of the existence of God. And the fact that we should worship him as God. And give thanks to him as God.

43:16

That's. That's what Romans chapter one tells us. And general revelation.

43:21

Is sufficient to reveal those realities. But special revelation.

43:28

Tota Scriptura and Sola Scriptura. All of Scripture and Scripture only. It must be

43:33

Theanistas. It must be God breathed. If you believe that it is intended.

43:41

To have a coherent communication. And the fact of the matter is. Certainly the

43:47

Apostle Paul taught. That what was written in the old covenant.

43:53

Was meant for our edification. Now in the church. And so there is meant to be a supernatural unity here.

44:02

Now a Muslim may read sources that deny that.

44:08

But the Muslim shares with us. The belief in divine revelation. And believes of course that the

44:13

Quran. Is a. Consistent. Divine revelation.

44:21

So that cannot be in of itself. Looking for what I. Where did

44:26

I put that? I thought I had that in here somewhere.

44:32

I'm going to have to drag that in here. So I have it available. I thought

44:38

I did have. Well okay. I've got the hard copy. I have a real nice.

44:45

Leather bound version of this. I'm not sure why I don't bring that in here. I'll have to remember to grab it and do that.

44:52

The study Quran came out a couple years ago. The first Quran I've ever seen. That has significantly more.

44:58

Notes than text. That is very very unusual. The Muslim believes.

45:05

That this is the last and final. Revelation. That in fact.

45:11

Is a guide or guard over. What's in scripture. But the idea of divine revelation is.

45:19

Necessary. To any. To any historical.

45:25

Understanding. Of Islam. There might be strange. Mystical. Types of Islam that.

45:34

Eschew revelation. But they certainly would not be anything. Have any claim to go back to.

45:39

Muhammad or. His early followers. The doctrine of the

45:45

Trinity for a Christian. Is forced upon us. By.

45:50

The contents of revelation. So when you see that first statement. The father is God. Behind that is.

45:57

The revelation of who the father is. In scripture. So. The baptism of Jesus.

46:05

The father speaks. The son is being baptized. The spirit descends as a dove. On the Mount of Transfiguration.

46:12

It is the father who says. This is my beloved son whom I am well pleased. And Jesus is transfigured.

46:22

There is all the discussion of the relationship. Of father and son in. John and in.

46:28

First Corinthians and. All through the pages of scripture. And prophetically. Seen.

46:35

From the Old Testament. That all lies behind. The statement the father is

46:41

God. The first three statements. The son is

46:46

God the Holy Spirit is God. Those. Statements. Have no meaning outside of the biblical context.

46:54

The biblical context where. The father is differentiated from the son. The son is differentiated from the

46:59

Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is differentiated from the father. Jesus.

47:06

Says that he will. That he and the father. Will make their abode.

47:12

With his people. By the. By the work of the Holy Spirit. When they send the

47:18

Holy Spirit after Jesus. Sends to the presence of the father. So there's. Clear distinctions. Being made.

47:25

In what the father son and spirit are doing in. Redemption. And the roles that they are taking.

47:35

At the same time. And this is. It was one of the reasons

47:44

I listed. Listen to as many hours as I did. As many different videos as I did. The one thing.

47:53

That was that I never heard. Jake say. Which. Was the one thing that struck me.

48:02

With with. As my strongest criticism really. I never.

48:09

I've never in all the. I've not listened to everything. But I've listened to hours and hours and hours.

48:16

Of Jake talking about. Problems the Trinity problems incarnation. Debates.

48:22

Evidently by the way. Something happened a couple months ago. That I didn't hear about.

48:30

Did anybody tell. Send anything in. About a.

48:36

A conversation that was recorded. I believe in San Diego.

48:42

Between. Shake Uthman. And Anthony Rogers.

48:48

David Wood and Sam Shimon. No one said anything about. You didn't say that. I had not heard of it about this.

48:56

And. The first I heard of it. Was when. Jake and some other guys.

49:03

Some other Muslims. Reviewed portions of. The. Specifically theological element.

49:14

Of the discussion primarily. Between Anthony Rogers and shake. With one. I eventually found.

49:22

The actual encounter. And then I found another video. Where. Just David Wood.

49:30

Came back later because. There was some. You would not believe the number of videos.

49:37

That all of a sudden popped up on YouTube. Because as I recall.

49:45

And I think. I think I got the point of why this was being raised. But at some point.

49:51

David or someone. Raised. A. Hadith.

49:58

A statement in the hadith. And attributed it to. Termity.

50:04

Now there are for those of you. It's been a while since we've done an in -depth. Show on Islam. Some of you.

50:13

May remember back. To the early days. Like when we would do an entire show.

50:19

Where we did nothing but look at. Every single verse in the Quran. That could possibly be about.

50:24

Isa bin Maryam. And so you'd know everything. That Quran said about Jesus. We did a lot of that stuff.

50:32

Over time. And that material I think is still valuable. And important. But. The.

50:44

Hadith. Now my understanding is. Jake has been Sunni for two years now. But before that.

50:50

He didn't accept the necessity of. What's called the Sunnah. The authoritative.

50:59

Role. Of. The body of hadith.

51:05

For Sunni Muslims. The Shiites have their own hadith. I have spent time over the years.

51:12

And if you're new to the program. Stick with me here. We really believe that reaching out.

51:17

To our Muslim friends is extremely important. Just because we've been dealing with. Other issues for a while. And not traveling and stuff.

51:25

I would. I would love nothing more. Than to once again.

51:31

Stand in the Juma Masjid. Even though it burned sadly. The Juma Masjid in Durban.

51:38

And. Defend the deity of Christ. As I did with Yusuf Ismail. A number of years ago or in the.

51:44

Abu Bakr As -Siddiq mosque in Erasmia. Debating. Shabir Ali.

51:50

With the Muslims sitting on the floor. Literally right there. I mean. Those are memories that I will.

51:58

Cherish. And opportunities that I would cherish for a lifetime. I'm not going to have the opportunities.

52:03

Of doing those things again. But would love to be able to do so. And so. My love of the

52:09

Muslim people has not diminished. Whatsoever over the past number of years. It's just. So many things have come up.

52:17

That require apologetic attention. But.

52:24

Over the years. I have narrated on this program. I have gone through many of the. Key issues.

52:31

Especially. Because the vast majority of Muslims in the world. 85 % are Sunni. And so.

52:38

They hold to. The authority. Of the systems.

52:44

Of Sharia law. And interpretation. The schools of interpretation.

52:50

That have developed within Sunni Islam. Based upon the Hadith. And the two.

52:55

Most authoritative collections of Hadith. Are. Extensive.

53:03

Long. I've listened to. All of the Hadith. That are contained.

53:09

In the two most. What are considered by most. And again.

53:15

You'll find people who will take different perspectives. And there's different views. And things like that. But. I should have grabbed some of these things.

53:24

Before I came in. But. Termity is. Considered authoritative.

53:31

But it's not in that top tier. Of sources of Hadith. Such as.

53:37

And Muslim. Those are the two most. Authoritative. Collections of Hadith.

53:44

And. We've gone through some of the Mutawatir Hadith. Universally accepted.

53:50

I've told you that. One of the most effective ways I've found. Of opening a conversation. Especially if you're driving in a cab.

53:56

In London. Or in many other places where I've had this happen. And your cab driver is.

54:02

Is Muslim. Is I will narrate one of the Hadith. And then I'll make application. From a

54:09

Christian perspective. Just had tremendous conversations. I mean you're. You're showing the

54:15

Muslim. That you actually respect them enough. To know something about their faith. First of all.

54:21

And they're pretty shocked. To encounter. A Christian. Who's read all of Bukhari and Muslim.

54:29

And major portions of Termite. And Ibn Majah and things like that. And some of the early.

54:37

And. Have volumes of Tafsir. Which is commentary on the Quran. In their library.

54:43

So anyway. This. Hadith was cited.

54:51

In the conversation. Getting back to what happened. A Hadith was cited. And it was attributed to Termite.

54:56

It's actually in Ibn Majah. But they. They gave the wrong reference.

55:03

And it was about the Quran. Appearing as a pale man.

55:08

At the judgment. And I guess. I actually didn't find. In the original video.

55:15

Where it came up. Probably had something to do with.

55:22

Given what Muslims believe about the Quran. Being. Eternal. Uncreated.

55:29

The tablet in heaven. And then being given to the angel Jibreel. On Laylatul Qadr.

55:36

And then. Piecemeal revealed to Muhammad. Over 23 years. And things like that.

55:45

Probably it had something to do. With the personification of the Quran. In that particular

55:50

Hadith. And what ended up happening. Is. I think David Wood came back.

55:57

And. The Shaykh was like. I was right. It's not in Termite. Yeah. It's in Ibn Majah.

56:03

So what? But then they ended up. In having this lengthy conversation. That went back and forth.

56:09

Back and forth. On how you determine whether. Something is Sahih. Or Hassan. These are.

56:15

These are categories. Of soundness. Of accuracy.

56:21

That is a part. Of. Hadith studies. Now again. If you're new to this program.

56:27

You're sitting here going. I think. James. Is too tired. He hasn't rested up.

56:32

After his trip. What in the world is he doing? This is not nearly. As in -depth. As we've gone in the past.

56:38

Is it? Rich is going. Oh no. It has been a while. If. And Jake.

56:45

By the way. If you've listened this far. And I'm sure you will. You. What? Oh. I.

56:51

See. I. I wish. Oh.

56:58

Okay. Well. I. Good. Good. I just wish. Twitter worked better for me.

57:03

I just. I just really. Really do. Anyways. Jake. If you haven't listened to.

57:10

The two dialogues I did. With. Yasir Qadhi. Please do so.

57:16

Before. Before next week. If you have. I would assume that you have. But.

57:23

The second night. When we were at the. At the masjid. Dr. Qadhi.

57:30

Honored me by his introduction. He talked about how he had sent me. His. Series.

57:39

And even said some long lines. I wish my students. Showed as much interest. In my teaching.

57:45

And had as many questions. And one more. This is much. Clarification. He says. I sent him. My CDs. And all of a sudden.

57:51

I start getting. These emails. With Arabic. In them. Asking me. For further clarification.

57:58

And they're. From a Christian. And. The story.

58:04

That he. Also told the story. And I remember this. I don't know why. Remember this. So. So clearly. But. I distinctly.

58:11

Remember. Pulling up. To a red light. Northbound. 16th

58:17

Street. Indian School Road. So. You go up over a hill. And you come down. To Indian School Road. And you take 16th

58:23

Street. It goes all the way out. To the. 101 or 202. Whatever it is out there. The freeway out there. And.

58:30

It was in August. It was humid. And it was in the 90s.

58:36

At about 3 o 'clock. In the morning. Because Rich knows. That's. When it's

58:41

August. If you want to ride outside. In Phoenix. And I'm a cyclist. That's when I listen to this stuff.

58:47

If you want to ride outside. In Phoenix. It's pretty much the only time you can do it. Because within an hour of that sun coming up.

58:55

You're toast. So. I distinctly remember. Pulling up that stop sign.

59:01

Or that stop light. And. Yasir Qadhi. I was listening. I listened to the entirety.

59:09

Of Yasir Qadhi's lectures. On the Hadith Sciences. Examining narration chains.

59:18

And. And Sahih. And Hassan. And. If you have. The relationship.

59:24

Of. Of the. Specific. Compatriots. Of. Of the Prophet. And their role.

59:29

In the narration chains. And. All that stuff. And. At that point. He was going through. Key rules.

59:36

In the determination. Of what is Sahih. And what is not. And where the. Disagreements are.

59:42

Between the various schools. Because as you know. That's the big thing. That's why you have different schools. It's because you've got different rules.

59:48

And I remember thinking that. As I recall. It was like the fifth rule. That he had given. I was like.

59:55

That seems contradictory. To something that came before. It seems really subjective. I don't know why.

01:00:02

That's such a strong memory. But I shared it with him. And he's never forgotten it either. That there was a.

01:00:08

Christian apologist. A Christian. Minister. Riding through the darkness. And the heat.

01:00:14

Of. Of Phoenix Arizona. On an August morning. At three o 'clock in the morning. Listening to his Hadith. Lectures. That's.

01:00:20

What I was doing at that time. That's. I continue. Doing that kind of stuff. That's. What I do. Anyway. So.

01:00:28

Those. Issues. Came up. And so they were talking about.

01:00:35

Sheikh Uthman was saying. Well that's actually Hassan. Which means it's not really. It's not Sahih. It's not the highest level.

01:00:41

Of confidence. You can't really use that. Besides that. It means this. Et cetera. Et cetera. I was really frustrated.

01:00:47

And I'll say this to everybody. I was really really frustrated. Listening to.

01:00:54

Even just the. Sections. That Jake reviewed. Of the conversation.

01:01:00

Between Sheikh Uthman. And David. And. And Anthony.

01:01:06

I did not hear Sam say anything. And Sam has nothing to say. Say about me these days anyways.

01:01:11

So. Be it as it may. I was really frustrated.

01:01:18

That conversation. On all parts. I was frustrated. With some of the arguments.

01:01:23

Sheikh Uthman used. I don't think Jake would use. Some of the arguments. Sheikh Uthman used. But I was.

01:01:32

Also. Frustrated. With the lack of. Not conciseness.

01:01:40

And not really clarity. Accurate definition. And some of the things. For example. At one point. Anthony said.

01:01:47

You're objecting. To some. The. The. The Sheikh. Brought up. The birth of Jesus.

01:01:53

Okay. The second person. In the Trinity. Takes on perfect human nature. He is going to give. His. Perfect life.

01:01:59

As redemption. For the people of God. So. There has to be. That correspondence.

01:02:05

Between. The ones being redeemed. And the one giving his life. And so. Jesus has to be born.

01:02:11

That's exactly what Isaiah. Nine. Six said. It was going to take place. In the first place. But. Muslims like to use that as.

01:02:16

Just. Without recognizing. We're not saying. That that was God the Father. Or the Holy Spirit. There is a purpose.

01:02:23

There is a reason. And I think sometimes. Christians get a little. Emotionalized.

01:02:33

By. That bad. Disrespectful. Kind of argumentation. That's just. It's just.

01:02:38

It shouldn't be made. As Uthman had used it. And so. In his response.

01:02:43

Anthony says. Along the lines of. What you're just simply. Rejecting something. That the. And they said it. The vast majority.

01:02:49

Of human beings. Have believed. Down through history. And Sheikh Uthman.

01:02:55

Rightly said. What do you mean? The vast majority. Of people. Believed. And he. Rejected that terminology. And they went back.

01:03:01

And forth. For 15 minutes. Anthony should have said. Okay. I shouldn't have said. Vast majority.

01:03:08

There has. There has. This has been. A constant belief. Of Christians. For a long period. Of time.

01:03:14

True Christians. And false Christians. But. Christians have believed. This for a long time. And moved on. 15 minutes.

01:03:20

Just go. I was. Just. There were times. I just wanted to drive. Just to.

01:03:26

Make me feel. A little bit better. So. I was. I was frustrated. With some of that. I really was.

01:03:35

But still. The. The point. Being. That. Despite all.

01:03:41

The rabbit trails. And everything else. There were still. Important. Things. That. That did come up.

01:03:46

And I am. I am thankful. I am glad. Honestly. To see.

01:03:52

What have I said. In my closing statements. In debates. With Muslims. Since.

01:03:58

I think I may have even said it. At Biola. So 2006. But at least. From 2008 onwards.

01:04:05

What have I said? We need. To move the discussion. Forward. Um. Repeating.

01:04:15

The tired. Arguments. Well. Where did Jesus say? I am God. Worship me.

01:04:22

Um. Akhmed Didat. Is. Dated. He's been refuted.

01:04:28

And it's frustrating. When people. Keep. Repeating. Stuff. So I. I debate people.

01:04:35

Who use Akhmed Didat's. Arguments. Because I want to reach. The people. That that's all they've got. But. There needs to be.

01:04:42

Somebody. On the other side. That says. Yeah. Let's. Let's get past. That kind of stuff.

01:04:48

And get to something. That's. A little bit more meaningful. And Jake's. Trying to do that. Whether he's doing.

01:04:55

So consistently. Obviously. Is the issue. Um. And that's what we can. Discuss.

01:05:00

And what we can. What we can talk about. Um. But. So. Going back. The logical problem. Trinity. Let me tell you real quick.

01:05:06

I didn't realize it was RF four o 'clock. I. Apologize. Um. Each of these statements.

01:05:14

Assumes. A very important. Biblical foundation.

01:05:21

And so what did I do in the Forgotten Trinity? I mean Jake. You gotta admit. I've been consistent here. My presentation.

01:05:28

Dr. Trinity. Is. Fundamental. Fundamentally biblical. And I get to some of the philosophical issues.

01:05:35

Only. In recognizing. Having taught church history. For a long, long time. That. The philosophical language.

01:05:42

Was developed. Because. Of the testimony of scripture. And so.

01:05:48

When you see. The father is God. The father is not the son. And yet.

01:05:54

It says. The son is God. Clearly. Two different categories.

01:05:59

Of being in person. Or being used. And. And Jake. Understands this. I don't know that he's.

01:06:05

Always consistent. In fact. One criticism.

01:06:10

I would have. Is that. And. He's the first person. I've seen. That's done this.

01:06:17

Is that. He. Seemingly. Tries. To. Make the argument. That our.

01:06:24

Our distinction. Of being in person. In talking about the trinity. Breaks down. When talking about the person.

01:06:30

Of Christ. So he takes two. Unique. Things. There is no analogy. To the doctrine.

01:06:35

Of trinity. Because. Only God exists. In that fashion. And then. The incarnation.

01:06:41

The hypostatic union. Absolutely unique. In history. As well. And therefore. There is no meaningful.

01:06:47

Analogy. That can be used. From creation. For that. As well. But. What he tries.

01:06:54

To do. I think. If I'm. Understanding him. Correctly. Is to argue. That well.

01:06:59

What you say. About being in person. In regards to the trinity. You then turn around. Contradict that.

01:07:04

When you talk about Jesus. Being. One person. With two natures. We are.

01:07:13

Talking about something different. When we talk about the being of God. We're talking about the very divine essence. We're talking about something. Eternal.

01:07:19

Unlimited. All the omnis. All that stuff. We are talking about.

01:07:25

Something. Related. But different. When we talk about. The divine second person. Taking on.

01:07:32

A human nature. And so. I think that's one of his arguments. We'll. We'll try to flesh that out next week. That seemed to come up.

01:07:41

But. I don't. Anyway. In these statements. The first. Six statements.

01:07:46

Are simply reflective. Of what the Bible teaches. The father is not the son.

01:07:53

John chapter 10. Verse 30. I and the father. We are one. As I've said. A million times before.

01:07:59

The verbs plural. It can be translated. I and the father. We are one. Even. In.

01:08:05

That. Text. The personal. Distinction. Father and son. Is maintained.

01:08:13

So. Number. Four. That's biblical. Number. Five.

01:08:19

That's biblical. Number. Six. That's biblical. One. Two. And three. That's biblical. Anyone who's seen my presentation.

01:08:26

On the Trinity. What is one. Two. Three. Four. Five. And six. They are foundations.

01:08:32

Two. And three. Of the three foundations. Of the Trinity. What are the biblical foundations. Of the Trinity. Number. Seven. Number.

01:08:40

Seven. So. Go. Back. To. It's been recorded. Many. Many. Times. Before. I should have. Thrown. I should have.

01:08:45

Brought. Up. The. PowerPoint. Presentation. Could have. Done. That. Easily. What. Are the three.

01:08:51

Foundations. Absolute. Monotheism. There is only one. Being. Of God. The. Existence.

01:08:58

Of three. Divine. Persons. And the. Equality. Of those. Persons. As they participate.

01:09:05

In that one. Being. That is. God. So. Does the Bible. Teach. There's only one. True. God. Yes. Does the

01:09:10

Bible. Teach. There's Father. Son. Holy Spirit. And. Distinguish. Between. Them. Yes. Does it.

01:09:16

Say. That. These. Three. Does it. Describe. Create. Ascribe. Creation. To. Them. All.

01:09:21

Those. Things. Are. True. And then. I just. Realized. I left. One. Criticism. Hanging. Just. Just. Caught. Me. Right. Now. Because.

01:09:27

There's. A lot. Of. Hours. Worth. Of. Stuff. That. I was. Listening. To. That. I'm. Trying. To. Go. Back. Over. And. Say. Did you. Mention. The. One.

01:09:35

Jake. I've. Never. Heard. You. Say. And. It's. Relevant. Right. Here. What's.

01:09:42

The. Name. Of. That. One. God. I. Have. Never. Heard. Jake. The. Muslim.

01:09:48

Metaphysician. Ever. Utter. The. Name. Yahweh. Or. Slaughtered.

01:09:54

In. English. As. Jehovah. Not. Once. Now. No. One. Who's. Ever.

01:09:59

Heard. Me. Present. The. Doctrine. The. Trinity. Has. Heard. Me. Not. Say.

01:10:06

Yahweh. Because. To. Me. While. Clearest. Evidences.

01:10:13

Of. The. Biblical. Nature. Of. The. Doctrine. The. Trinity. Is. The.

01:10:18

Fact. That. The. Biblical. Writers. Take. That. One. Divine. Name. And. Apply.

01:10:24

It. To. Father. Son. And. Spirit. How. Do.

01:10:29

You. Explain. That. If. You're. Going. To. Object. To. One.

01:10:35

Being. In. Three. Persons. Well. Biblically. The. One. Being. Of. God.

01:10:41

Described. As. Yahweh. Is. Attributed. To. Father. Son. Holy. Spirit. In. The. Scriptures. Now. I.

01:10:48

Realize. A lot. Of. Christians. Don't. Know. That. A lot. Of. Christians. Don't. Know. Their. Well. Enough. They. Don't. They. Partly.

01:10:55

It's. Partly. Because. Of. A. Tradition. Which. I'm.

01:11:00

Not. Sure. You're. Familiar. With. You. Might. Be. Though. The. Philosophical.

01:11:07

Books. And. Christological. Books. You're. Reading. In. The. Genres. That. You. Have. Recommended. Might. Not.

01:11:12

Even. Raise. This. Issue. I'm. Not. Sure. If. You've. Read. Warfield. I would. Highly. Recommend. Warfield. To. If. You.

01:11:17

Have. Not. In. Other. Words. Conservative. Biblical. Believing. Trinitarians. Rather.

01:11:22

Than. People. That. Are. I. Mean. Some. Of. The. Stuff. You've. Written. You're. You're. Quoting. From. Not. From.

01:11:28

People. Who. Would. Have. A. Very. High. View. Of. The. Consistency. Of. Scripture. But. For.

01:11:33

Those. Who. Do. It. Is. This. Testimony. To. The.

01:11:40

Deity. Of. Christ. The. Number. Of. Times. That. New. Testament. Writers. Take. Passages.

01:11:46

About. Yahweh. And. Apply. Them. To. Jesus. In. Our. Most. Of. Our. English. Translations. Yahweh. Is.

01:11:51

Not. Rendered. As. Yahweh. It's. Rendered. As. LORD. In. All. Caps. The. Uh. New.

01:11:57

Uh. Legacy. Standard. Bible. The. One. That. Masters. Is. Putting. Out. I. Actually.

01:12:03

Got. To. See. The. New. Testament.

01:12:34

New. Testament. The.

01:12:41

New. The. The. New. Testament.

01:12:47

The. New. Testament. New.

01:12:59

New. Testament. New. The.

01:13:23

New. Testament.

01:13:42

New. New. Testament. New.

01:13:50

New. New. New. New. New.

01:14:21

so anyway so as I look as I look at this graphic and we'll finish up with this the logical problem the trinity there is no logical problem with the trinity when one recognizes what the background of the seven statements is when you recognize the fundamental distinction between being and person that is necessary for the first six statements to have any meaning at all why why do statements one two and three exist biblical texts

01:15:00

I can give you a biblical properly exegeted based upon the original language support for one through six the bible teaches those things and number seven is taught in more passages than we could than we can number so these are biblical teachings and the philosophical language you use is not the origin and source it's not at the basic level the basic level is this is how

01:15:40

God has revealed himself in history now I'll tell you you probably already know

01:15:46

I do not have any reason to believe that the author of the text that is in this understood that Christians believe what is in those seven statements that's not reflected in the text and in fact

01:16:08

Jake I would ask you to reflect upon this reality your arguments against the doctrine of the trinity are far beyond anything that the author of the

01:16:23

Quran ever dreamed of now I know that I know what the answers to that are well

01:16:29

God didn't intend to do this you said you did say though that the

01:16:34

Quran specifically addresses the doctrine you made that very very clear

01:16:40

I'd like to know how and where because your objections are not the objections of the

01:16:47

Quran I find that interesting it's something to to ponder and to consider but the

01:16:59

LPT is only a

01:17:04

P because of a lack of meaningful analysis of what gave rise to each one of the statements as they're grounded in this so there you go there you go so you're saying that there's conversation going on on no oh a couple hours ago okay

01:17:32

I didn't see it okay good all right good well

01:17:40

I hope that this will start in a useful conversation as both

01:17:46

Muslims and Christians follow along and consider this I'm I'm hopeful that it will be on a different level than a lot of the conversations that have been had in in the past um

01:18:01

Jake is not on the Akhmedidat level and that's a that's that's a compliment from me um the

01:18:08

Akhmedidat level is not I've said for a long time um is is not a scholarly level on any on any on anyone's radar

01:18:18

I think uh but anyway so we're gonna we're gonna have a conversation next week

01:18:24

Rich is looking a little bit nervous about that he's feeling the pressure um he's smirking at me now

01:18:32

I think I'm gonna get I think what you know

01:18:37

I'm gonna hear after the program why didn't you tell me about that when you weren't live on the air was that what you're gonna say

01:18:48

I'm in for a big surprise would you like to tell everybody what the surprise is going to be okay uh

01:19:06

Jake if I need rescuing and we need to move this off till like the

01:19:11

Tuesday after please help me I'm a little nervous right now anyway okay all right there you go uh hopefully you found all of that I I know

01:19:22

I know I know I know I know um that was a little little in depth on stuff that we haven't been dealing with for a long time um but hopefully some of you are going yes finally getting back to some of that stuff um and uh we'll find that conversation uh useful next week so thanks again for watching the program today and Lord Willen we'll uh see you on Tuesday.