Live: Abolition Debate w/Jeff Durbin & Samuel Sey

The Greatest Commandment and Loving God in All of Life

When the scribes and Pharisees asked our Lord about the greatest commandment, he replied, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.

So why do we hear some of today's most prominent pastors saying things like this?

It had everything to do with how we talk about the Bible and specifically or along with that, what we point to as the foundation of faith, which for most Christians, unfortunately is the Bible.

We need to do better. We need to love God with all our hearts and stand unashamedly on the rock of his word. We need to love the Lord with all of our souls and respond to the worldview issues of our day with the wisdom and discernment that comes only from him.

We need to love the Lord with our minds and understand the calling of God's people in every area of life in God's world. We need to love the Lord our God with all our strength and face the work of building a life-giving, God-honoring culture.

Join us for four days at the Cultural Leadership Academy as we consider how the gospel influences all of life and culture and the role that we have to play in applying foundational Christian thinking to every area of life.

Rock of Bodice must stop. I don't want to rock the boat.

I want to sink it. Are you going to bark all day, little doggie, or are you going to bite?

We're being delusional. Yeah, I love to get delusional, yeah.

Delusional is okay in your worldview. I'm an animal. Well, you don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay.

It doesn't really hurt. She hung up on me.

No! What? What?

Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives. Don't go into the world and make homies.

Right.

Disciples.

I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke, pastor.

When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

Woe to those who decree iniquitous decrees and the writers who keep writing oppression. To turn aside the needy from justice and to rob the poor of my people of their right, that widows may be their spoil and that they may make the fatherless their prey.

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And we wanna say always, as we always do, we're so thankful for all of you guys who pray for this ministry and are part of this ministry with us. So we are having an interesting show today. Obviously it's a little different than Apologia Radio normally.

Luke the bear is not here, Conover's not here. It's just me under these lights and have the privilege of having a conversation today with a very good brother, a man that I love and respect greatly. His name is Samuel Say.

You guys, I'm sure many of you guys are aware of him. You know him, you know some of his work. His website is Slow2Write. Make sure I get this exactly right here. Slow, it's slow2write .com. And he's got some great stuff there.

And you may have in a, well, fairly recently you've seen Sam doing a couple of programs where he's talked about the issue of abolition versus pro-life. And so Sam's a friend, love Sam. He loves me. We respect each other.

We're brothers in the Lord. But we have some differences on the issue of like, how do we get to the abolition of abortion and provide equal protection for all human beings from fertilization? And so I'm just gonna, we're just gonna thrust everyone into it.

And the way that Sam and I decided to do this was just really to have this as a conversation between brothers. And I'm sure we're gonna have things we completely agree on and then other areas where we disagree, but we wanted to do that in a way that glorifies God, loves one another and helps to get this conversation moving better than it has in the past.

And so Sam, you'll say, thank you for joining us on Apology Radio, brother.

It's a real honor. And thank you for your very kind words. You're being so kind that, don't make me become an abolitionist, sir, just from your kindness, don't do that.

Well, yeah, I mean, well, no, go ahead, go ahead.

I was looking around with some mutual friends of ours that I'm so starstruck that just by seeing you mentioning my name, I'm like, you know what? All right, I'm an abolitionist already, so. I'm just joking around.

No, okay, so let's do this this way. So there's, I think I wanna give you a chance to explain to everybody where you're at on this issue because, and it relates to something I've heard you say often when I've listened to some of the programs you've done and the conversations you've had about this.

And you even talk about it in terms of the kindness and the love and affection we have between one another. It's one of the things that in the past has bothered you about many of the abolitionists you've had a run in with, just the behavior, the unchristlike behavior, those sorts of things.

Now, obviously that can be demonstrated both sides, right?

Oh yeah.

But it is something that I think we have to be critical about and I think you're right in terms of like, this is wrong, the behavior, the abuse, the uncharitable behavior that you might see coming. Because I put it this way, I'm gonna take ownership, right?

In terms of, even as a Calvinist, as someone who's reformed, if someone points out a flaw in the reformed community, I wanna take ownership of it and say, you know what? That's actually a good critique.

That's a problem in the reformed community. We need to make that right. And so going into it, I think that we wanna demonstrate to people that we can love one another and actually do this as Christians.

Yeah.

And I would like for you to tell everybody where you're at on this issue so that there's no confusion.

Yeah.

And go ahead.

Yeah, that's really, really helpful way to start off. Before I share my views on this, to continue your point. And of course, not surprisingly, I was very humble and gracious of you, but that's something that I've addressed before and some dismiss, but I think they don't get the point.

The point is not because I'm, I'm used to addressing woke ideologies, controversial things. So, you know, sinful words, unrighteous words are not new to me. What bothers me about, unfortunately, this issue is, this is an issue of babies being murdered.

Babies are being dismembered and decapitated. And if someone is passionate about this issue because they hate sin and love God, or as the Bible says, I think in Amos 5, 6, I think, where it says we should hold fast to what is good, love justice and abhor evil.

Well, if we're gonna abhor evil, if we're gonna hate abortion, we have to hate all unrighteousness. We have to hate the slander, false accusations, and the words, the unwholesome words that are so common, because I'll tell you this, we'll share, maybe, you know, I guess I'll share soon my agreements with abolitionists.

But, you know, for a lot of people, when they hear, for a lot of people who may call themselves pro-life, when they hear that abolitionists wanna penalize women, when they hear, when they associate that with unwholesome words and anger, and truly seeing people who may even be close to agreeing with abolitionists, hearing them say, seeing them say horrible things about each other, it's gonna be hard for them to associate penalizing women with loving God and loving justice.

They're gonna associate that with, oh, well, they're just mean-spirited, which is not true, right, because that's, well, we'll get to that soon, that's just biblical. But when there is poor character, when there is unrighteous character, people are going to use that as a reason to reject some of the good things abolitionists have.

I don't think they get it. So to me, it's very frustrating that so many abolitionists dismiss this, which is why I'm grateful that you acknowledge it. And of course, too, I know pro-life people who have also said some horrible things about abolitionists, too.

I mean, some of them have said horrible things about me, so it's not really a surprise, right? So unfortunately, there's sin on both camps, but too often, in my own personal life, too often, I've seen too many abolitionists hurting their own arguments by just, frankly, poor character at times.

And I'm sure I've been guilty of that, too, right? So that's not to say that I'm better than anybody else, but I think too often, this is something that people would characterize abolitionists as being guilty of.

Well, and I'm gonna get you to explain that point, but I think the reason I bring it up is I think that this issue needs to be about the principle issues. We have to stick to the issues, right? Not make it about attacking the personality.

It's what are you saying, and is that consistent with God's revelation? Is it consistent? Is it reasonable? Is it logical? Those sorts of things. We need to stick to those and not make it about personalities.

But at the same time, I will start with saying that one of the things that I have tried to communicate to fellow abolitionists and just Christians on this issue is the Proverbs says in chapter six, verse 16, it says, there are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him, haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood.

Now, we love to seize on that as Christians. Let's just forget abolitionists. We love to seize on that as Christians on this issue of abortion. God hates the hands that shed innocent blood because it's true, he does.

And so we should feel the weight of that. And we love to draw on that versus as Christians with regard to the issue of abortion. However, the text goes on to say, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

He hates all those things. And so it's important for us if we wanna be consistent to say, yes, God hates the hands that shed innocent blood, but he also hates the one who sows discord among brothers. Amen.

And breathes out lies. And so if it's a corrective that's needed on either side, I think we need to use it and we need to apply it and appeal to it and say, let's be consistent, right? Let's avoid slander, let's avoid lying about one another.

Let's use equal weights and measures in our personal relationships with one another. Like, it doesn't really do any good for us to like, you know, shout equal protection and decry unequal weights and measures, but we don't actually do that in our personal relationships with one another.

Amen. Yeah.

And so I think that's the key issue, I think, you know, is stepping into this to say, it's not about personalities in terms of our discussion, but if there's a corrective needed, period, for us in the body of Christ in this issue, that's a corrective we should all listen to.

Yeah, and this is something that I'm, you know, the reason why I call myself slow to write, it's not because I am slow to write, although I'm a very slow writer, truly, technically, but in terms of character, I wanna be, I'm not saying I'm there yet, but I wanna be slow to read or, you know, quick to listen, so I wanna be quick to read, quick to listen, and then slow to write or slow to speak, but a part of that means being slow to anger.

Now, of course, we should be angered by what is happening with the abortion issue, babies being murdered, we should be angry about that, but we should not sin, right? And too often, there's so much sin involved and it just hurts what we're trying to do to honor God and to save babies.

Yeah, we need to avoid those pitfalls, because we're not advancing the cause of justice if we're having to wade through all of that muck at the same time. Exactly. Has to be about the issues, the principal issues, make it about that, and you know, look, and on this issue, I think we need to be humble enough to say there's things that I'm right about and wrong about, you're things you're right about, wrong about, what we're trying to do as brothers here is discover what does God say about this so that we can be changed.

And that's the key issue here is to say, as brothers in Christ, as members of the body of Christ, as people who are part of the church, let's get to the scriptures, let's make it about what does God say about this so we can be changed so that we can glorify God by establishing justice.

That's the key issue.

Exactly. Yeah. And, you know, in addressing that and also getting to what one of the things you asked me earlier is, I would hope, one of the reasons, I would hope that, I hope that by the grace of God, it is me wanting to be humble and wanting to be quick to listen and slow to speak that has led me to agreeing with abolitionists on certain things.

Now, there weren't things that I really was, were rejecting necessarily, but I hadn't considered until several years ago when I heard abolitionists talking about it, frankly, people like you. And I was like, huh, I didn't consider that.

So now to get to what is my view. So I think, actually, I, you know, I, in a sense, I don't have to turn pro-life, not because I'm not pro-life, I am pro-life, but when it comes to this debate or this discussion, I think the word pro-life is not helpful.

In my view, I think the most helpful terms are immediatist and incrementalist. Or to go back to the original words, gradual abolition and immediate abolition. Because I would say that I am an abolitionist, just not in agreement with those who normally call themselves abolitionists today in strategy.

I'm an abolitionist in the sense that, of course, I want to abolish abortion. And I would say that every true, sincere pro-life person, or to be more specific, pro-life Christian, wants to abolish abortion.

They just have different views on how it should end. And then also when it comes to a major part, which is, of course, equal protection. But to share my views, I absolutely believe that, of course, abortion should be abolished with zero exceptions.

I do believe that women should be penalized with the abortionist or anybody who plays any role in the abortion, because it's murder. And it's very clear in the scriptures that you murder, then you must be charged for that.

There's no debate over that. Many of my quote-unquote pro-life or incrementalist friends disagree, and I think they're wrong. And I think there are many who are starting to, because frankly, like me before, many had not considered that issue until recently.

And I've had talks with people, and I'm like, hey, guys, have you considered?

I'll tell you this.

I had a conversation with, I'll mention her name, with Christian Hawkins. She's the president of Student for Life, I think, or Student Rights for Life, I'm forgetting exactly the official name, but she had an interview with me, and she did not know my views on this.

And live, she assumed, because I wrote an article about abolitionism and she reached out to me, but I guess she hadn't read everything I said. And she was like, yeah, well, they believe in penalizing women and that's wrong.

I'm like, well, let's talk about this, right? So I made the point that, well, when slavery was abolished, you would, of course, agree that anybody then who would illegally own a slave, well, should be penalized for that.

She's like, yeah, well, what's the difference then with the pre-born child? Because the pro-life movement, rightly, has said that we are this generation's versions of the abolitionist, right? The abortion issue is just as, or even worse than the issue of slavery in the past, or even as it still exists in some places today, even illegally.

So anyways, my view is that, yes, women should be penalized because, of course, I do agree with equal protection. So I think that covers, generally, where I'm in agreement with, of course, no exceptions in abortion and equal protection.

And let's do this. I actually had to pull up here because I thought this was an important part of that conversation you had with Kristen Hawkins. I'll just play a little portion of that so people can hear what you said.

Killing a baby is just like killing a five-year-old person. And I think then we need to say then that people who have abortions then, once abortion is illegal, should be penalized for that.

Well, that was a lot. And you certainly did say something a lot of people disagree with, especially when you talked about penalties for and seeking criminal punishment for women who've undergone an abortion.

I would say that view is largely opposed to about 95 of the pro-life movement in America who says we can't offer a helping hand one day and slap women with penalties the next. So I think you're right in that there are always going to be, and there are women today, any of us know, who have gone out to pray in front of an abortion facility or sidewalk council in front of an abortion facility.

There are women who truly do not know what it is they're doing. There's women who are so steeped in a crisis and have a tunnel vision of the crisis of the pregnancy that they refuse to consider any other information about the development of their child, the fundamental, unique, whole human being living inside of them, who it was also created in the image of our God.

But there are women who do know what abortion is and still choose abortion. I think though your policy prescription of punishing women, of saying that you would be in favor of laws that criminalize women, I would deeply disagree with that, especially at a moment where you have for 50 years a country that has told women killing a child is okay and in fact is empowerment.

So I thought you did a fine job in responding to this, and everyone can go look that up themselves to see how Sam handled that objection. I think you did a really fine job and I'm gonna use that in the future in terms of relating it to the issue of slavery and the culture that was developed at that time and just what many of them had just sort of adopted.

This is fine, we can dehumanize them, they're not persons, they're property, those sorts of things. You brought up a fine point, that when slavery was abolished and it was criminalized, it was abolished and criminalized and anybody involved in it would have been punished and there's no excuse on day two.

The person can't say, well, I've been a part of this environment and this culture and I can't help it how I've thought about this. You would say, no, this is a crime, you've dehumanized this person, that's not allowed, they will be treated as equals and if you engage in this, you will be punished.

And I would say that she probably fully accepts that. Yeah, that's exactly how it should have gone down. Anybody who would have enslaved a black person after that should have immediately been penalized.

But she has a worldview and I think this is a key issue, brother, as we spring into this. This is, I think, the key issue. The thing, because you bring up the point that, okay, so what everyone heard from Sam is that he loves Jesus, he loves God's word, he wants justice, he wants equal protection.

He does not hold to the position that Kristen illustrated that, and I think she's exactly right, I think it's higher than 95%, but when you talk about the pro-life movement or the pro-life industry, this whole machine, when she says that this is against 95 of the pro-life movement, we don't agree women should be penalized, Sam doesn't hold to that position.

He holds to the position like, no, if we're gonna be consistent, it's a human being from fertilization and every human being deserves equal protection and that it needs to be criminalized and anybody involved in that process needs to be criminalized.

So Sam's in full agreement on that. And so in that sense, that's where, Sam, that's where you're going. You're going the way that we're saying this needs to land, it needs to land in equal protection and justice that is equal justice, equal weights and measures.

That's where you're saying you wanna land, but you're saying that you think that the dispute is between incrementalism and immediatism. Tell me what you would say to this. I've tried to argue that I think that that is not a helpful way for us to have this discussion because I don't think it's actually true.

And I've said this to Doug. Doug's, you know, he promotes smash-mouth incrementalism. Would you say, Sam, by the way, would you say that that's kind of where you're at, smash-mouth incrementalism?

I am, but I just use a different term. I use biblical incrementalism.

Okay, all right, that's helpful.

Well, so when I've addressed publicly Doug on this issue, I've said this repeatedly. And like I said, I'd like to hear what you have to say to this. I've said, I don't think that the categories of immediatism versus incrementalism is actually helpful because when you and I have this discussion, we are having it as brothers who have a mind and eye on abolition and equal protection as the end goal.

When we're having this discussion with the pro-life movement, they don't actually have the categories that you and I are reasoning within. And I think you already understand this in terms of even talking to Kristen here.

And what I mean by that is this. I don't think it's incrementalism versus immediatism. I think it's an issue of justice versus injustice in terms of methodology. And the reason I say that is because the pro-life establishment has gone on record.

And I know you're aware of this. They've gone on record. They've put their name on a dotted line. They've killed our bills. They've sat next to me at legislatures killing our bills of equal protection because they don't actually have your goal.

Like, you know, they would consider themselves incrementalists, but they don't actually have your goal of actual equal protection and abolition. So that's why I think that those categories aren't helpful because the pro-life industry isn't thinking like you and I.

They aren't thinking in terms of the abolition of abortion because they don't actually want equal protection. They're never even aiming at that. And a good example of that would, I would give a number of examples, but in every legislature that I've either been in and got a bill in, or I've sat before and testified on behalf of a bill of equal protection, the people fighting against that bill are the people who are saying, we don't ever want this child to receive equal protection from the mother.

We think she's not guilty and she's a victim as well. And so we're never aiming towards criminalizing the mom who willfully takes the life of her child. And so tell me what you think about that because that's what I think is not helpful in terms of the discussion, because I think you and I are thinking like Christians in terms of the end goal, but Kristen and others like her in the pro-life establishment, they don't want equal protection.

They're never working to abolish this.

Yeah, I think I would disagree in a sense. I definitely, many, most pro-lifers do not support complete equal protection. I think that's an important thing to address. I think too often abolitionists ignore an important part.

So just before I say what I'm gonna say, to be clear, I do believe that everybody involved in an abortion should be penalized. But I think too often abolitionists or immediatists make it seem as if pro-lifers do not want anyone to be penalized.

And I think that's unhelpful because they do believe in aversion or form of equal protection. When I say they, I'm referring to my counterparts who would disagree with me on women being penalized. They believe that abortionists should be penalized.

And I think if we're being honest, that is aversion of equal protection. Is it complete? Absolutely not. And it's not sufficient. And I would say that if the goal remains the same, it's unjust because every single person who murders a child needs to be penalized.

But I think it's still wrong to suggest that as if the pro-life movement does not want anyone to be held accountable for that.

Do you, Sam, that's helpful to hear you say that. Can you illustrate that? Do you know anybody who is an abolitionist that says that the pro-lifers don't want anyone to be punished? Because I'm not aware of anybody like that.

Well, I think so often when they talk about equal protection, they solely focus on the women. So no one has said they don't believe that no one should be held accountable. But so often when they talk about it, I think it's implied when they say, when they always focus on women being penalized without addressing that the pro-life movement, because I wanna represent abolitionists as fair as possible.

And I think it's important that abolitionists also represent the pro-life movement or those who, yeah, the pro-life movement as fair as possible by saying that, look, they do believe that someone should be held accountable.

And very, very, most of the time that's never mentioned. And I followed abolitionists, I followed you guys, I follow a lot of other people, and that's rarely mentioned from what I've seen. It's usually just that they don't want equal protection.

Without mentioning the context of, they don't want equal protection for women, but, or I mean, as in penalizing the women, but they do believe in it for the abortionists. Like I've said, I think that view is unjust.

I don't think that's right. But I think it's important to still mention that.

Yeah, no, that's helpful. So I think that what we would say is that equal protection means equal protection. And if there's not, if somebody, if you're showing partiality and somebody is being protected to actually do this crime, then it's not equal protection by any definition.

Somebody has been afforded protection under law to do it. And I think that's one of the things that we've tried to illustrate. And I think you know this, you've seen this, is that the pro-life movement, actually when they legislate, they will legislate that it is a crime for the abortionist and of course for the abortion clinic and anybody involved there, but they will actually write into their bills protection for the woman.

So they'll say things like, this shall be a crime except for the mother. And that's what you see across the board. They will literally write it into their legislation that the woman has legal immunity to do it and she's to do it with impunity without punishment.

And so I think, and you brought up a good point too, this is interesting. And I just want to share this with you in terms of like thinking about this biblically and critically as brothers, as Christians, none of our bills that we've put in mention gender, class, nothing.

The bill, like Louisiana's bill, that historic bill we were able to get in Louisiana, that the pro-life establishment came in and killed over that week where we handled the votes we needed to abolish it.

It was the pro-life establishment, Mike Johnson, Louisiana right to life, and then of course that massive letter that was written with all those organizations, the ERLC, national right to life that told the legislators never to pass a bill of equal protection that would lead to the punishment of a woman.

What was weird about that, Sam, was that the bill in Louisiana didn't mention the mother. All it mentioned, all it said was what's in the womb is in the image of God and these children in Louisiana will be afforded equal protection from fertilization.

What it did though, Sam, is it revealed a theological position that the pro-life establishment has. They saw that and what was crazy was that the legislators saw it and dude, you should have seen their faces.

They were like, well, obviously, of course we'll pass this. That's the pro-life position, isn't it? Human life from fertilization, everyone deserves equal protection. Isn't that our bill? Isn't that our thing?

And then all of a sudden the pro-life establishment comes in and goes, no, no, no, no, no. We don't want that because we don't actually want that kind of law that would lead to the prosecution of a mother.

And what we were saying was, who's talking about the mother? We didn't mention her. We didn't mention anybody. We just mentioned a definition and a crime and what it revealed, and this is what I've been saying, Sam, you've probably heard me say this, is that the pro-life establishment has a fatal flaw and it is actually a heresy historically, biblically and historically in Christian theology, it's a heresy and that is that they believe the mother is a victim, that she is not guilty and that she must be protected and never punished for engaging in the abortion.

So what my point is, is when we put a bill of equal protection in and they go, oh, but the mother, it's a revelation that their theology, their worldview is that she's never guilty and she must not be seen as guilty.

So what I've been arguing, Sam, is that that's really the main issue is the fatal flaw here is we can have all these disputes about like methodology and incrementalism versus immediatism and those are important conversations, but the fatal flaw here is that the pro-life establishment doesn't hold to a Christian worldview on this issue.

They believe that somebody in this must be protected to kill their child willfully with no punishment, which is what removes the gospel from the mother as well. How are we gonna preach the gospel to a woman who's being told she's not guilty and she doesn't need to turn to Christ for her abortion, right?

Yeah, I mostly agree with you, I think. And since you've, from watching my interview with Christian and then maybe seeing some of my words on this issue that you know that I despise with passion, the messaging from the pro-life movement that women are victims, it just drives me nuts.

It's not true whatsoever. And it is a theological issue. It is when if an unrepentant woman, if a woman has not repented from an abortion and she faces God, one of the sins that she'll be held, if God is going to hold a woman accountable for murdering her child, why shouldn't the law do so?

It is absolutely ridiculous. So I'm completely in agreement with that, right? I agree. I think the, so if it's going to be, do I have disagreements with the pro-life movement on certain things? Absolutely, of course I do.

To be very honest, just as some abolitionists do not like me, some pro-life people do not like me either because of these views. And if, so if this conversation will be about what do I disagree with the pro-life movement, we can talk about that.

But I think even amongst us brothers, right? Even amongst we Christians, there are abolitionists who believe that my views are sinful, that my views are unbiblical, are unjust, which I think is something that we should make a major focus of this as well.

I'm sure we'll probably get into it because, yeah. But I will say this, this is where I disagree. I think so often the abolitionists describe the pro-life movement as their biggest enemy,.

Which I think is I say that, I do say that.

Yeah, which I think is completely wrong. I understand the temptation to say that, I understand. But the reason why I disagree with that is because of this. So going back to history, so for example, these debates are not new.