February 5, 2020 Show with Conference Interviews featuring Dr. Steven J. Lawson, Daryl Updike, AND Gary DeMar

Iron Sharpens Iron

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown,

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's iron sharpens iron This is a radio platform in which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation

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To make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host

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Chris Arnzen Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida Champaign County, Illinois and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live -streaming to iron sharpens iron radio .com

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I am Eric Nielsen and I'm sitting in today again for Chris Arnzen as we come to a second day of conference interviews today

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We have three interviews the first is from the foundations conference in New York this past December Chris had the opportunity to sit down with Stephen Lawson and speak for a few moments that interview will be followed by a conversation that Chris had with a listener

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Daryl up dyke from the 2019 g3 conference and finally we will have an interview

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That is the longest 15 minutes in radio history with Gary DeMar an interview that took place at the g3

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Conference just a couple of weeks ago before we begin the interview with Steve Lawson I just like to ask you to continue to pray for Chris Arnzen his health

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I believe is better at this point But now the iron sharpens iron radio studios are facing some technical difficulties

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Chris does have somebody coming in to look at some issues but your prayers would be much appreciated as we look to resolve those issues and now let's listen to Chris and his conversation with Steve Lawson at the 2019 foundations conference today's iron sharpens iron radio broadcast features interviews that were conducted on -site on Thursday and Friday December 19th and 20th at the foundations conference in New York City Please excuse the background noises and other

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Imperfections in the recording due to the fact that these were conducted on -site with a portable recorder

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I hope you enjoy these wonderful interviews. I'm here with one of my favorite preachers alive on the planet

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Earth Stephen Lawson Founder of one passion ministries and it's such a blessing to be here with you at the foundations conference in New York City Once again, dr.

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Lawson. Can you tell us briefly about one passion ministry? it's just a ministry designed to Minister to pastors in a way to help them in expository preaching many preachers have never had a formal education and I want to help that provide structure for them to think through how to preach other men have had formal training and quite frankly, it was not good training as it relates to preaching a lot of seminaries really do not do

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I think an adequate job in Training men to preach they give them theology and exegetical tools

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But the preaching ends up being more on -the -job training so Predominantly I host conferences to help pastors

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Sharpen their thinking and understanding as to what is effective preaching and how can

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I do it better? Every great preacher is wanting to get better Every average preacher should want to get better every mediocre preacher ought to be trying to get to the next level of Effectiveness in their preaching and if you're not you're probably

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Going backwards quite frankly so I also produce podcasts and a magazine and Many other things with one passion ministry.

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I do this around the country. I do it overseas If you reach a pastor, you're reaching 200 people you're reaching 500 people.

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So it's a multiplying effect in that regard What do you think are the main elements missing from?

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The dominant preaching that we have today in the United States Well Preaching is from A to Z.

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So there's not a one -size -fits -all answer Some preachers do a very good job

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Other preachers do a very poor job Other preachers are in the spectrum someplace in the middle

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So I can't give an answer that encompasses every preacher

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In America or around the world. I would just say it really begins with a

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Brilliant understanding even with what expository preaching is which is nothing more than biblical preaching a lot of guys

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When they stand up are just lecturers. They're just teachers. They're just giving moral dissertations

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They're cultural commentators They're bloggers in the pulpit they don't really even understand what a sermon is and How a sermon is to be prepared and how a sermon is to be delivered so I think it really just begins with a fundamental understanding of even what preaching is and how to prepare an expository sermon and how to stand in the pulpit and To deliver it not just what the text says

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But what the text demands what the text requires And how to structure it

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Great preaching is linear from 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 It's not circular where the preacher is chasing rabbits and going off on side trails so There's so much to say quite frankly, that's why

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I teach first year second year third year preaching at the Master's Seminary. I need three years of your life.

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I Can't you know give a five -minute Answer and that's why I'm the dean of the doctoral program on expository preaching.

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I need a couple years of your life to teach you what it is and unfortunately a lot of guys do not know that they do not know and so that's a

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That promotes just staying in the rut where you are And there's much more obviously

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I could say But you've got to understand what preaching is and how to prepare for it and how to deliver it

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If we had time, there's a hundred other things to say Well, the name of your ministry is one passion ministries.

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And although there are many passionate preachers in Reformed circles theologically including men that are preaching at this conference

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But we do have a reputation as reformed Christians for having too many Creatures that lack passion when they ascend into a pulpit you mentioned lecturing before do you think that is a seriously dangerous thing when when brilliant men ascend to in a pulpit, but they are

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Merely approaching the gospel in an academic fashion. Yeah, absolutely Lecturing is wonderful in a classroom.

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It's awful in a pulpit and Many men in the pulpit are gifted to teach.

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They're just not gifted to preach and so it really affects the entire church

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Like priests like people and so however if it is a highly intellectual

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Pulpit which reformed people tend to be because you have to think To be reformed yet.

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You have to really be a reader a learner a student connect the dots If you come across that way then you're going to produce a church that is a library club that is

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Ready to argue at the drop of a hat any point at which you disagree with us on anything

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And you're going to produce a church. That's probably going to end up being legalistic a church that is very

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Argumentative that really lacks grace and love and patience with people because they have just sat under Diatribes on Theology and I love theology and the

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Bible is rich and robust with theology But it's the manner in which it is presented

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No one wants to eat cold scrambled eggs The scrambled eggs can be good.

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But if they're cold, they're awful Inedible unedible and if you've got great theology, but you present it in a cold monotone

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Fashion Then then I quite frankly, I don't want to hear it In a worship service.

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I might come to your Sunday school class. I might come to your seminary class But but don't don't be masquerading as a preacher because you're not and it in fact

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I I would even say we need fewer preachers not more preachers We have too many people who think they are preachers when they're really not we have too many smaller

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Churches that just really there's not enough preachers for every one of these churches God hadn't given that many gifted preachers.

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So some churches need to merge back together and And come together and every pulpit ought to have a real bonafide

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Preacher who actually has been trained and taught in how to do what what he's doing

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There are a few exceptions like a Spurgeon or a Lloyd -Jones But they are far and away the exception and not not the rule

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It really cannot be amateur hour in the pulpit where you're trying to find yourself

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And you have this desire, but you've never really been given adequate

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Training to do this But passion is indispensable at the end of this conference,

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I'll be speaking on passion and preaching and Quite frankly if there is no passion there is no preaching so It's not something it would be good if you had passion no if you don't have passion sit down You're not a preacher.

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Hmm. So it's it's that essential now last Lastly, we are approaching rapidly the

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Christmas season and Christmas Is one of my favorite times of the year and in fact, it's one of the favorite times of the year for people

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Globally even if they do not really know Christ and one of the things that is a tragedy is that Christmas can make

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Jesus a safer thought in their minds a helpless

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Harmless baby in a manger What are the signs that when a person examines themselves they can rest?

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Assured that when this Jesus returns not only to Bring his people with him into eternal glory with him, but also with wrath against those who have

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Rebelled against him. How can we know that we are ready to meet this Jesus the second time?

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Well, there's internal witness and external witness The internal witness is in your heart.

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Have you truly? repented of your sins and believed in the

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Lord Jesus Christ and Really believed in to the Lord Jesus Christ.

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Have you truly? Committed all that you are to Jesus Christ. Have you submitted to his

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Lordship? Have you surrendered your life and entrusted yourself to Christ who died for your sins upon the cross?

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completely It really begins there based on the authority of Scripture and there is the inward witness of the

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Holy Spirit who Testifies to your heart that you're a child of God, but there is the external witness

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Which is a changed life and the evidence of the new birth first John gives about eight evidences of the new birth

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So you would need to see those evidences Thank you, dr. Lawson. I Hope you enjoyed that interview with Steve Lawson at the g3 conference every year

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Chris interviews a number of people Tries to interview the speakers if he is able to he likes to interview a number of famous and Influential speakers that may not be on tap at that particular conference

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But they happen to be attending and are available for interviews and one of the things that I've always enjoyed is when

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Chris brings somebody over from one of the booths because there are so many people There with fascinating ministries that are they're displaying

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Information about the things that they do and the ways that the Lord is using their ministry, but Chris also

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Takes the opportunity when he gets a chance to interview his listeners who stop by the table to say hi

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And this next interview is one of those it's with a fellow named Darrell up dyke.

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Let's give it a listen This is Chris Arnzen at the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta, Georgia and This is the g3 conference and I am so thrilled to be here this is my very first interview that I'm conducting on -site at the

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Iron Sherpins iron radio exhibitors booth And this just so happens to be a brother in Christ who listens to iron

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Sherpins iron radio that I providentially bumped into while I was actually loitering at James White's Exhibitors booth for Alpha Omega Ministries.

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His name is Darrell up dyke And he is from Bordertown, New Jersey, and it's great to see you

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Darrell good to see you, too tell us first of all where you fellowship and how long you've been aware of the g3 conference and and What brought you here today?

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How did you? Discover that they were having this conference here this week Yeah, I fellowship at a shady rest

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Baptist Church or sorry shady rest Bible Church in Chesterfield, New Jersey That's also the the in that was on the

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Petticoat Junction program if I'm not mistaken Shady rest remember shady rest, but anyway

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Okay So is it is it a reformed church or no?

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It is a non -denominational just a Bible Church Yeah, and so how did you hear about the g3 conference?

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I believe I first heard about g3 Might even been through your program. Oh great.

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Yeah, and just then searching it through, you know Other social media networks YouTube watching the preaching from from that comes out of this conference and just truly been blessed

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No I've always I'm always encouraged when I meet people that Make it a point to approach me and let me know that they listen to iron trip and Zion radio and are blessed by it

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Can you remember how long ago you first discovered iron trip and Zion radio and how you how you discovered?

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I think it was a few years ago. Maybe two or three. I was listening to apology a radio

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Huh, and I think he Jeff Durbin might have mentioned that he was you were interviewing him your program about martial arts

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Yes, and if Christians should do martial arts and other You know

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Eastern Philosophy type things great Very glad to hear that the love brother

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Jeff and looking forward to getting him back in on a trip in Zion He's being he's become harder and harder to break free from his busy schedule but so tell our listeners something about your own life personally how what kind of religious atmosphere if any you were raised in and What providential circumstances are sovereign

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Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you? Well, I was raised in a Roman Catholic household.

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My mom Roman Catholic took us to church every Sunday So I had a background

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Religion kind of in the terms of Christianity is what I tell people like Roman Catholics have all the names, right?

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But it's it's what saves you that they have wrong And then I kind of went away from my faith for a while or any faith

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I don't think I was ever an atheist, but I kind of was more like indifferent to it and then actually

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Point in my life came up where my wife and I almost got divorced and a friend of mine

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I asked her if she was divorced at the time and remarried I asked her when you get divorced and she told me you don't get divorced and that totally, you know

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It was unexpected and then she gave me a movie called fireproof with her Cameron in it and I watched it and That I heard the gospel in that movie and was kind of like God was showing me how

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I was living Thinking I was living sacrificially, but I wasn't I was living for myself and at the end of that movie

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I prayed that God would change me and change my heart and from that point that was six years ago and He started to change me and then two years later

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My wife came to faith and now we're you know, both going to church together at this conference Which I would have never thought would have happened, but it's totally

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Totally the Sovereign Lord and then now on you just said before that you're the congregation where you're a member is not

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Specifically reformed. Are you have you embraced the doctrines of sovereign grace? Yes. I have. Yes I can't not unsee it

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It's there and I don't know how you can't read read the scriptures and see God's sovereign hand over all of salvation and It's there so you can't deny it now

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You know, I believe people who don't believe that way are still brothers and sisters in Christ, of course, but I Don't know how they can't see it either.

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So well we as Reformed Christians, as you know give a hundred percent of the praise honor and glory to Jesus Christ for every good thing and therefore even

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Understanding the doctrines of sovereign grace and embracing them comes from him. That does not mean that our as you just said our

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Non -reformed brothers are not our brothers. They are of course are and for some reason on their journey here on earth the

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Lord has not Chosen to reveal these things to them at this time.

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We don't know why that is right, but we just know what the truth is and we praise God for him revealing the truth to us and so tell us about your

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Response to your experience at the g3 conference today, by the way, is this your first year? Yeah, this is our first g3 conference.

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And so tell us about What you have heard and how you have responded to it, it's been amazing so far we heard, you know

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Pastor Josh Boyce. I don't know if I say that right by spice Yes, Pastor Josh Boyce his message was was awesome

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What I like is it's always pointed back to the local church, you know, it's not like Just go on your own

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It's always under that authority of the local church Which we see a lot of like rogue Christians that do missions or do street preaching that aren't

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Sent by their local church authority. So I love that It's always pointing back to that and we saw Tim Challey's and David Miller and David Miller's such a blessing

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Oh, yeah to hear him preach and just everything's off his head Like he just has the whole

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Bible memorized and it makes me feel like man I can't even memorize one verse sometimes and he's got it all in his head

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But it's such a blessing to the Christian. Yeah, I had the privilege of interviewing David Miller about a year ago

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And it was truly a joy. He is a rare breed of preachers

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His His methodology or manner in preaching

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Seems to be a dying art if you will and it's sad because the old -time

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Powerful preachers seem to be fewer and farther between They seem to be more for form from a bygone era, but it's always good to hear brothers like him

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Preach. Well, I hope that you continue to listen to Iron Trip and Zion radio and spread the word about it

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In fact, if you wouldn't mind taking a flyer and see if your pastor will give you permission to hang it somewhere Sure, so that others will discover it

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I'm very honored to have met you and you did bless me More than you'll ever know just to let me know that Iron Trip and Zion radio is a blessing to you

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Thank you, and thanks for your ministry. Well, God bless you, brother I Hope that you enjoyed that interview with Daryl up dyke

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And I hope that if you have a chance to visit with Chris at a conference I'm sure he would be glad to say hi and you may even be interviewed yourself at the beginning of the show

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I referred to this next interview is the longest 15 minutes in radio history and the reason

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I said that is that I was Standing there getting ready to record this interview with Chris and Gary DeMar and as they were about to begin the interview

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Gary looked over at Chris and said how long should this interview be and Chris of course being very Accommodating said well as long as you'd like the interview to be and Gary looked at his watch and said well

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Let's do 15 minutes and Chris and Gary both looked at their watches and synchronized and said, okay, let's do 15 minutes

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Well as you'll be able to tell that interview lasted a little bit longer

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And so here is Chris Arnson speaking with Gary DeMar at g3 2020 Chris Arnson here again on site at the g3 conference at the

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Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta, Georgia and This event would never be the same for me without a visit from my friend

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Gary DeMar President of American Vision, and it's a thrill not only to have the opportunity to fellowship with you over lunch

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Again here in Atlanta, but also to have you back on Iron Trip and Zion radio. It's always good seeing you

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I think the last time We met was here. Yeah, and we both went out to got our we got went to the barber and got our hair cut

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That's right It was an interesting experience and Well, first of all, why don't you let our listeners know?

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I mean, it's very unlikely I have too many listeners that aren't familiar with you in some way in your ministry

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American Vision, but tell us about in the summary fashion about American Vision Well American Vision was started back in 1979

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I came on board in 1980 and its emphasis back then was on America's Christian heritage thus

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American Vision and That was a that was a big big deal back then today

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David Barton With wall builders pretty much the expert in that area and I came on and the first thing

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I did was was partially edited a Production audio tape called

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American Vision 360 years later, which took you through a whole span of America's Christian heritage

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Over 360 year 60 year period I will actually won an Angel Award and But my interests were broader than that and so began to move

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American Vision into a Christian Biblical worldview and I wrote a series of books three volumes called

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God and government defining government as God's government over all things and then

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Self -government under God family government church government and then a decentralized civil government and that that series is now in a single volume just called

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God and government and It it pulls all of those those issues together to lay out a

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Christian worldview as to what it what the Bible says about like economics and education and What justice in terms of courts and to witnesses all those types of types of things and has been used in the

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Christian school movement for for decades So and then we've moved into other areas as well

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As you know Eschatology because I would go out and I would go out and speak on God and government people invite me and invariably there'd be somebody in the audience would say why are we

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Bothering with this because Jesus is coming back soon All the signs are in place and now this was in this was in the 1980s

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I had written volume 1 and 82 and then I had written volume 2 and 84 and then volume 3 and 86 and that was the decade of The this generation will not pass away until all these things take place where Israel became a nation again in 1948 and then generation was 40 years and so 40 plus 1948 is 1988

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And so that was big big big. This was this is way before the left -behind stuff came out and So I I got into eschatology to answer that objection and so so with you know, you've got in government and the eschatology and apologetics

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And my concentration on apologetics is mostly in the area of the the moral side of the creation evolution debate if we're just we've just evolved and and through the millennia

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You know, we fought for our lives in our existence based upon killing the weaker

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Who's to say anything is right and wrong today and in doing that I use Atheist arguments

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I use the things they actually say which is striking Richard Dawkins and others so but Eschatology the apologetics and America's Christian heritage are probably the three things that I concentrate on the most economic

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I do a lot on the issue of economics, which is really a subset under under the topic of government and I may have addressed this with you in a previous interview.

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I just don't remember right now, but in your own Theological and eschatological journey in life

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How did you arrive at a post -millennial understanding? well

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Well, I became a Christian in 1973 so it was the heyday of late great planet

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Earth and like everyone, you know you You get interested in that but as I started reading the

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Bible, I just Couldn't reconcile it with what I was reading especially in the Gospel of Matthew and Then I picked up a book the librarian at Seminary had put some books for sale from his library.

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It was a short book hardback Red cover and it just had

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Matthew 24 stamped on it. Hmm and I picked that up and I'd given up on the topic of eschatology.

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I just you know Seminary was consuming all my time. Anyway, you know Learning your

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Greek and Hebrew and all the other stuff in which seminary was this? This is reformed theological seminary in Jackson, Mississippi.

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They've now expanded. They got one in Orlando Washington DC. I think Dallas Charlotte and I read that book and it it literally transformed my thinking on the topic

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Because what Marcellus kick that's the fellow who wrote it who actually it was first published

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In 1948 originally and it has since been Combined with his commentary on on revelation called an eschatology of victory

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But my his understanding of Matthew 24, which was not unique to him. It's pretty much this been the standard view throughout history

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What the events of Matthew 24 weren't describing the end of the world They were describing events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 8070.

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So another passage related to that so when you apply that principle in other parts of Scripture a lot of the

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Passages that have been used to just to describe what the end of the world was going to be like They go away and now you got to start talking about okay so now what what does the future hold and I was never really satisfied with any of the

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Millennial positions because I don't think Revelation chapter 20 really describes a millennium.

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I mean Thousand years is a millennium technically, but what we think about a millennium

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Those attributes of characteristics of a millennium aren't really aren't found in Revelation 20

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And so essentially it was Matthew 28, you know Jesus said go into all the world make disciples of all the nations and that's essentially my shift to I hate to use the word

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Post -millennialism because it kind of restricts you to Revelation 20. It's simply applying the

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God's Word to every area of life and I've always been kind of interested in Applicational things.

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How does this work? How does this apply? You know, I became a Christian. I just Transferred that over to you know, the theological stuff

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Well, I just want to make sure even though I intend to repeat this later on in our discussion but I want

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Everybody to know that if they want to learn more about American vision, they can go to American vision org, right?

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American vision org, we need to take a short break from this interview to hear a word from our sponsors

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We'll be right back in a few moments This is pastor

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Bill Sousa Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support iron sharpens iron radio

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Financially Grace Church at Franklin is an independent Autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as Revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

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Lord Jesus Christ And of course the end of which we strive is the glory of God If you live near Franklin, Tennessee and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes

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Are you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby?

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We hope you will join us some Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church Our website is

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Grace Church at Franklin org. That's Grace Church at Franklin dot o -r -g

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This is pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

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Sovereign Lord God Savior and King Jesus Christ today and always

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When iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the

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That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Welcome back to iron sharpens iron radio.

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Let's continue listening to our interview with Gary DeMar I know that you are going to be

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Conducting a conference that I plan to attend God willing very excited about it as is my former co -host on iron sharpens iron radio buzz

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Taylor He's likely going to take the trip out to from Pennsylvania to New York to attend this event this is going to be

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God the government in the last days conference March 20th and the 21st

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To be held at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York pastored by my dear friends pastor

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Rich Jensen and pastor Christopher McDowell and I am so thrilled that this is going to be taking place and my friend

37:35

Anthony Eugenio Who is the founder of New York apologetics? He is one of the key people involved in organizing

37:44

This event March 20th You're going to be discussing God and government with the

37:49

Q &A following and then on March 21st You're going to be discussing the Olivet discourse with a

37:55

Q &A following If you could give us an overview of those two things

38:02

That you are going to be specifically addressing at the conference God and government how is this

38:12

Issue in your opinion being wrongly approached by professing

38:19

Bible believing Christians Not only in the United States, but even across the world What are your average

38:26

Christians perhaps even most of your average Christians missing about this? Well, I would say the first thing is is that people say how you want to put

38:33

God back in government? I always tell people every government idolizes some

38:40

God The state is God. I mean some of these philosophers this this the state is

38:47

God walking on earth every every government Atheist government believes it's the

38:53

God. It's it's God the Justices of the Supreme Court.

38:59

They're the final decision on that makes them the God if they're they're the final standards like by what standard?

39:05

What what are these judges using to make this determination? Christians unfortunately are under the false impression that We just shouldn't get involved in politics because Jesus didn't get mixed up in politics

39:19

That we're not supposed to judge. There's a separation between church and state Politics is dirty.

39:25

You just keep on going down the list We've all heard these things over the years and then of course the eschatological side of things we're living in the last days

39:32

Why are we bothering? And so I will I will haven't really the eschatology part is

39:38

Pretty easy in my mind with the God and government I'll bring those principles in but make them contemporary to where we where we are today

39:45

And to help Christians understand that being involved in they're already involved in government.

39:51

They're involved in self -government family government church government civil government is ordained by God and I guarantee you if if They're not involved in civil government civil government still involved in them this is being held in New York and It's one of the biggest tax states in the

40:13

Union I was listening to a show on the way over here And it was fella was talking about the near mass exodus from states like,

40:22

Illinois And of course, California and New York and New Jersey because of tax issues

40:28

When the state taxes you they're stealing your money if they're using that money for wealth Redistribution if the civil government is doing something that God has not ordained for it to do you can't avoid government

40:40

Why would you let why would you let people? Why would you let people run your life?

40:45

forcing you to comply with certain things and and obviously and also to possibly bring a judgment of God with say

40:52

New York's abortion law and and Maryland's abortion law and these and Not a man.

40:58

I guess it's not a marriage of Virginia's abortion law, which is pretty much Washington DC because of the northern tier of the state so you can't avoid you can't avoid it and If eschatologically, we're not living in the last days, then what do you your children your grandchildren your great -grandchildren?

41:18

What kind of world are we are we leaving, you know to them? So these are very very important features and To say that the

41:25

Bible doesn't address politics is just plain nonsense. You got two books of the Bible called Kings. I mean

41:30

What do you do with something like that? and Paul Peter and even

41:36

Jesus addressed politics. I mean the new the Bible isn't about fixing

41:43

Civil government the Bible is about fixing everything and what we need to understand about the

41:49

Bible is what is its Understanding of the proper role of the civil magistrate in a society

41:55

And so Christians don't want to impose Their Christianity on other people you can't do that.

42:02

You we're not we're not Islamic. We don't force people to comply We don't force people if they if they leave the faith

42:07

It's not the jurisdiction of the civil magistrate to do anything about that unlike medieval Roman Catholicism.

42:13

Yeah. Well, yeah I mean, it's you know, we've we've all seen this My view of government is

42:20

I want the government I want civil government out of the areas in which it doesn't have any jurisdiction and Jurisdiction simply means to speak of the law and we don't want we don't want government

42:34

Supreme Court or anyone else Coming in there and dictating in our lives.

42:39

What's what's right and wrong in terms of their view of the law so would you say that An appropriate understanding of Earthly government when it comes to a

42:53

Christian is that he should want That government to be a minimal authority

43:02

In the country where you live or on the earth in general Yeah, I think so and our founders our fathers many of whom you know, we're not

43:11

Christians But lived within the context of a Christian worldview Understood that I mean our

43:17

Constitution has really short And it's quite different from the

43:22

French Revolutionary Declaration of the Rights of Man Where they list your rights?

43:27

Here's what here are your rights and we're the state and we're in this is what these are what your rights are

43:33

Constitution is different the Constitution says this is what civil government has been empowered to do.

43:39

These are enumerated powers and Those things which aren't enumerated see it's not not so much telling

43:47

What our rights are because you know the originally the Bill of Rights was not in the Constitution It's what the what the civil magistrate has and then the states weren't satisfied

43:59

They wanted to further restrictions on the on the federal government and that's why we got the

44:04

Bill of Rights and the ninth and tenth amendments Says essentially if that if that right or that authority does not risk is not found in Those enumerated powers then those powers reside with the states

44:18

And if not with this if the states don't don't have them then to the people generally I mean, it's a it's it's a very biblical system

44:27

Unfortunately the Constitution of the United States Has no greater

44:33

Foundational authority than we the people so if the people generally and and but in a majority way

44:41

Decide they want some like Islam Islam comes in the United States and They become the majority

44:49

You can go they can go to the Constitution says says we the people we're now the people and we're a majority

44:54

And then all you have to do is go through an amendment process and get rid of everything and start all over again

44:59

See that that's been one of the fatal flaws of our our Constitution it has no

45:07

Transcendental upper Who appeal to it's to the people generally and they probably never in the vision to the multiculturalism and the religious diversity that would eventually

45:21

Come here. Yeah, I'm you know you go back to the 18th century and there there was a huge concern about Islam John Adams and Thomas Jefferson you go back and read their writings on it and you will see

45:37

That they had They're very critical of Islam.

45:42

They were the Muslims were kidnapping Christians and selling them into slavery

45:48

The you know from the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli. That's why the Marine Corps was founded

45:54

Yeah, exactly because and see it initially we weren't very We weren't strong.

46:00

We didn't have we didn't have a much of an army or Navy certainly didn't have any Air Force and So we were

46:08

Incapable of dealing with this it was like the Pirates. Yeah, exactly exactly There's tons of material on this and so the first there was a treaty with with Tripoli 17 the 1797 treaty with Tripoli which states that America is in no way founded upon the

46:27

Christian religion and secularists Use that CCC they they understood a

46:33

Christianity was was was out there. Well we were We were negotiating with them on with Tripoli from a very weakened position

46:42

But if you read the rest of it, I think there's a semicolon in that We don't have any

46:50

Basically We're not trying to overthrow your religious system essentially what it was

46:57

Because they viewed the United States the Muslims did they viewed the United States as a

47:02

Christian nation for a couple of reasons all the state constitutions

47:07

Were Christian in one way or another North Carolina's Constitution you couldn't hold public office in the state of North Carolina Unless you believed in the inspiration of both the

47:17

Old and New Testaments Now that changed up until the in the mid part of the 19th century so I mean that was

47:26

You know that was they understood that we were a Christian nation, so if we ever got in a conflict Would we then impose

47:32

Christianity upon them that that first treaty of Tripoli? Said we wouldn't do that and the other thing is is that the the

47:40

Constitution even though Starts off with we the people it ends with done in the year of our Lord 1787 and even set

47:47

Sunday aside as a day of rest for the president of the United States So the Muslims understood this but during Jefferson's administration there was a second treaty of Tripoli 1805

47:57

And that phrase is taken out Because we now had the the upper hand militarily that we could defend ourselves, and we were working to you know rescue these pirated

48:08

Christians who had been Who had been captured by by these Muslim new terrorists at the time so this is so what we're experiencing today

48:19

Isn't really new it's been going on for Even going back beyond the 18th century

48:25

But America has always had a problem with Islam died down after 1805

48:32

But now it's risen back up again, so it's people say well We're living in the last days because of all this no

48:38

We then we were living in the last days in the 18th century and in the in the 15th century Because if you go back and read

48:44

Luther they talk about the Turks and the Turks is Simply a shorthand for Islam other than the

48:54

Sinfulness of human beings the fact that we are Fallible and errant and we will never perfectly either

49:08

Exegete or live out the scriptures Exactly the way

49:14

God intends if you even move that aside out of the equation. Why do you think that?

49:21

so many Bible believing Christians even those who share a reformed theology, and you might even say even those who share a theonomic reconstructionists post -millennial understanding and worldview

49:39

Why is there so much diversity and animosity even amongst

49:45

Even very like -minded brethren over politics Over our not only our involvement in politics, but even those that are aggressively and enthusiastically and zealously involved in politics over the the correct approach to politics the the vision of What a

50:10

Most qualified man holding the presidency what are the most important beliefs and character traits you should possess because you even have as you know even amongst

50:25

Theonomists you have those that are more strongly libertarian. You have those that are very enthusiastic on the other and With Donald Trump, you know how do we if we have a

50:38

Bible that is an inerrant and We believe that it is

50:48

Understandable the perpiscuity of Scripture. Why is it that we have so much diversity?

50:54

Especially in this area since this this is our discussion right now the area of politics

51:00

Well, that's a I mean that's a huge huge topic I wrote a whole book on it called God and government

51:06

But I think I think there are There are there are various factors involved.

51:13

I think we've we've fallen into this dualism idea That you know

51:19

Christianity is over here in this area and then everything else is over here We've got the church and that's all we're supposed to be involved in and then the rest of the world is run by the secularists

51:32

You know Calvin certainly, you know didn't believe in that and And I look

51:38

I understand. I understand the difficulties of all of this because We don't want

51:45

I don't want politics To be the top dog in the in the junkyard and I think we have

51:54

Given too much authority to the state. We want the state to educate our children, you know, it's free education.

52:01

It sounds good Well, I'm just some of my kids to the public schools and at the time sometime, you know, public schools were somewhat

52:07

Christian So look at this we're getting free education and there's something of a Christian worldview being taught. So what the heck?

52:14

Well that didn't last long. I mean because we're people are you know talking about 1962 63 with prayer and Bible reading being taken out of the schools and people are still trying to get

52:24

God back in the public schools When we ought to be getting our kids out of the public schools and running the schools ourselves.

52:29

Can you imagine? Jews sending their their kids to Romanized schools

52:38

Votie Bachum did a series for us called the children of Caesar. Yeah, and Why are we why are we sending our kids to the to the to to Caesar to educate our children

52:49

I mean, come on and and being shocked when they come back Romans. Yeah, exactly. So this is a 60

52:56

C4. Yeah 60 some almost 60 years We've been trying to save the public schools

53:01

They've been getting worse and worse and worse and what we should have been doing is starting our own schools we have to interrupt

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That's 908 -996 -7654 Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:03:43

I'm Eric Nielsen. I'm sitting in for Chris Arnzen today Chris could use your prayers.

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Technical person try and solve some of those issues so that he can continue producing shows in the near future

01:04:03

Before the break Chris was talking to author and speaker Gary DeMar.

01:04:08

Let's continue to listen to their conversation Votie Bauckham did a series for us called the children of Caesar.

01:04:14

Yeah, and Why are we why are we sending our kids to the to the to to Caesar to educate our children?

01:04:22

I mean come on and and being shocked when they come back Romans Yeah, exactly. So this is a 60

01:04:29

C4. Yeah, 60 some almost 60 years We've been trying to save the public schools have been getting worse and worse and worse

01:04:35

And what we should have been doing is starting our own schools now This has happened got the you know, the burgeoning

01:04:40

Christian school movement as well as homeschool movement I mean when I was going to school no one ever talked about homeschooling except maybe

01:04:48

Thomas Alva Edison and the Wright brothers And but there many Sandra Day O 'Connor was actually homeschooled so But and that's that's becoming

01:04:59

Acceptable because even secularists are taking their kids out of public schools. They they want a completely different environment so I think this idea of this dichotomy that you can live in the world and Your own circle and that's all

01:05:13

Christianity is all about Then I in and Francis Schaeffer you go back and read him and you talk about the upper story

01:05:19

And the lower story and about we live in this upper story and everyone else lives down here and the

01:05:27

Christianity only applies to the upper story and Some sort of natural law applies down here and that's a big thing when conservative circles

01:05:35

Matt natural law Well Darwin killed natural law in the mid part of the 19th 19th century

01:05:41

With evolution evolution is true. There's no such thing as natural law The universe itself might have natural laws, but there's it's the law

01:05:51

It's literally the law of the the jungle a law of the ocean deep And So we're that was the big deal.

01:06:00

They they believed in natural law Blackstones commentaries he talked about natural laws and and biblical laws as being equal

01:06:11

But the problem is He wrote before Darwin and so now what's what's the what's the standard anymore?

01:06:20

so Christians are Their theology is is truncated. It's it's been constricted as to how much of it applies outside the church

01:06:28

It's many times emotional people come to Christ for emotional reasons. They don't come to Christ on basic basically on a

01:06:36

Christian worldview basis Now not that you have to come to Christ initially for that I didn't come for that I mean my life was a wreck

01:06:48

But after I saw how the Bible is a pretty thick book It has a lot to say about a lot of things and Christians need to embrace that because again

01:06:57

We can't impose your morality on other people But I guarantee you the other people are imposing their morality on you and eventually they may come and drag you away

01:07:05

I don't know if you've been following this this fellow who worked with Bernie Sanders That the

01:07:11

Democrats want to get in power. He says and then it'll be necessary to deprogram those who are

01:07:17

Trump followers and Gulags and the rest of those things are legitimate

01:07:23

They had to do that and they said in Nazi Germany after Hitler and so I mean think about that, right?

01:07:29

you know so they get they get a copy of the voting rolls and find out who you voted for and You know, here's what they're doing in,

01:07:36

Virginia And will that you know with the Democrats get in power, but Christians are sitting back sit

01:07:41

Well, I don't want to get mixed up in politics There's there's not even a dime's worth of difference between the two parties.

01:07:47

Jesus is coming soon He didn't get mixed up in politics. Jesus is sitting on it still on his throne You know those kind of things

01:07:55

You know are impacting in terms of where we're living today. No, obviously you believe Jesus is on the throne

01:08:01

Oh, yeah, but but does it because Jesus is on his throne? It's like we don't have to do anything Jesus is on his throne

01:08:06

So I'm just gonna walk across the street, you know six lanes of traffic I mean, it's gonna you know, because Jesus is on his throne.

01:08:12

Well, yeah, he's on his throne, but you're still responsible I mean, come on It's just the way that they play that All the stuff is going on in the world today.

01:08:23

Well, Jesus is on his throne. Okay, so what is tell me why that's incongruous right to one and to the other

01:08:30

Now again going back to the fact that The only blueprint that we have in the inerrant infallible

01:08:41

God -breathed scriptures for a government is the government of Israel and even in a post -millennial understanding

01:08:51

I I'm not an expert on that view and then I know that there's even differences of opinion in that view and even on amongst the onomist but The the

01:09:04

Restoration if you will of a government that God actually

01:09:10

Inerrantly designed for his people in the old covenant for that to be reestablished today in the new covenant would there first have to be a

01:09:24

Part of a or or even a fulfillment of a post -millennial revival with Christians in Authority before that could be replicated

01:09:36

Or can you could you possibly? Have that re introduced to an

01:09:44

American government or any other government where pagans are Running the show if you follow what

01:09:51

I'm saying I look I've always believed that the only way you change the society is from the bottom up You're not you you can't you can't gain the reins of power and then force all this on people it just doesn't work

01:10:01

I think that's one of the reasons why abortion is still a law Because the majority of people still want it

01:10:07

And the same thing with taxation, you know The more majority of people want it and the more people you get who want something like that It's easier to keep

01:10:18

Other people in power by trying to get more people who go along with that So you're not going to change things at the top until people at the bottom change

01:10:25

Which means the way you change education if Christians took their kids out of public schools and public schools would be unnecessary

01:10:31

And if the government got out of public schools people have to make their own decisions as to how they're going to educate their kids

01:10:38

It wouldn't be forced on them. It would just be the natural process and this is the same thing with the same thing with You know, you know economic matters welfare and so forth

01:10:53

Now the government your Christians involved and say look we we can't this isn't a good system this isn't a good system for us to take money from some people and give it to other people and we really the war on poverty is still going on after You know almost 60 years 55 years

01:11:12

What's what's the problem because that's not the way you fix it and and this isn't being imposed on people

01:11:18

It's this is this is a system. This is the way it is No one's gonna be put in jail, you know for it all or anything like that people unbelievers would still be unbelievers

01:11:28

I mean there were in Israel They weren't persecuted for being unbelievers

01:11:34

So it's again, but by defining The the role of the civil magistrate and not just at the national level

01:11:43

I mean again, the Constitution is a very very small document very limited enumerated powers of the federal government

01:11:52

I'll give you a good example from the Constitution people say well the Constitution talks about general welfare in two places one in the preamble and one in the body of the

01:12:03

Constitution and they say see the Constitution talks about welfare And this is this is constitutional exegesis at this point

01:12:14

So James Madison who had a great pretty large role in the Constitution Wrote in response to that idea and he said look there's a semicolon after that general welfare clause general welfare means welfare that applies to Everybody so that's why the

01:12:39

Military for example it applies to everyone so if you know

01:12:45

If we have to defend ourselves by a former by a foreign invasion Well, that's all of us

01:12:52

There's nothing about education in the in the Constitution. Does the word doesn't even appear in the

01:12:57

Constitution? there's and so what Madison said there's semicolon and He there's a list of what constitutes general welfare

01:13:07

The post office for example would be considered general welfare

01:13:12

You don't have to use the post office But I mean it's and one of the reasons the post office was put in so private organizations

01:13:20

You know couldn't do what Google and others are doing is essentially cut people off anybody can use the

01:13:26

Postal Service unless it's for fraud so Those are the types of things that we have to understand

01:13:34

A post -millennialist does not believe that We're going to use force and To force people to comply with all these laws like force people you know force public schools to do this no

01:13:49

For me we shouldn't even have government funded schools It's just it's not their jurisdiction

01:13:57

So basically in many ways what you are describing is

01:14:03

The antithesis of what many non

01:14:10

Postmillennialists have accused Postmillennialists of yeah that that you are

01:14:18

Somehow bypassing the gospel. It's kind of ironic how very often you'll hear Arminian Dispensationalists or Arminians of a eschatological viewpoint outside of postmillennialism who will accuse

01:14:35

Reformed postmillennialists of believing that human effort is going to be the thing that that changes

01:14:46

I've been answering that kind of same question since Ever since I graduated from seminary in 1979 because I was in the middle of all this a reformed theological seminary

01:14:57

When Greg Bonson was was teaching there And I won't go into all the details of that. I've been answering the same question you know and and I would always like people to tell me where in any of the hundred books maybe and maybe 20 ,000 articles that are out there where that's what a postmillennialist believes now.

01:15:20

They're Kind of there's kind of the banner of truth postmillennialism, and then there's the more

01:15:25

You know the thing of the so -called theonomic Reconstructionist postmillennialism, but no it's if you don't have changed hearts changed minds

01:15:35

You're not going to be able to change other things you what we have today is we're going to elect people to office and Force change on us you you will accept transgenderism you will accept homosexuality

01:15:50

You know submit, and if you don't you're going to be fined $135 ,000 or you're going to lose your job, or you won't be able to practice law in the

01:16:00

United States See they're the ones imposing their their will on on the

01:16:05

American people But the the people have to say no to these things.

01:16:11

It's like what's happening in Virginia right now over gun control Finally people are waking up.

01:16:17

They've been there all these people have been there all the time but the left has been Have been has been activating the system the political system and getting their way and these people who are up there now

01:16:28

You know they've they've fallen kind of fallen asleep that 2018 election You know decimated the state of course the

01:16:36

Republicans haven't been very good very good Anyway, and plus northern Virginia is simply a suburb of Washington DC and their jobs are at stake see they've got to maintain the system

01:16:47

Because that's where they're making their money There are more millionaires in that part of the country than any other place in the country not even including,

01:16:53

California But there's all government related so the people are going to have to say we've had enough of this

01:17:01

We don't want this anymore And you don't have you shouldn't have the authority to impose these things on people people want to bake a cake force

01:17:11

You know don't want to put a certain message on a cake look. That's their business go somewhere else And Most of the

01:17:19

I think in all these cases No one is denied to sell a cake to somebody who's a homosexual

01:17:25

It's the message, and I always say Who goes in there and says hey? I'm a heterosexual sell me a cake or he's a homosexual over there

01:17:34

And he wants me to tell you that they'll bake him a cake I mean It's but it's forcing people to comply with a particular message and using the power of the state

01:17:44

To force compliance, and that's what's happening more and more in our country forcing compliance. You know it's it's interesting

01:17:50

You brought up the gun control issue one of the things that baffles my mind about that is how so many of So many within the black community in the urban areas of this country the most dangerous areas the most filled with crime

01:18:07

You have so many People being duped by the leftists into thinking that gun control is a good idea and at the same time many in these communities view the police as establishing a

01:18:24

Police state in their communities where they have become the enemies of the people they're racists

01:18:32

Allegedly and yet you want them to be the only one with the guns You want them to be the only ones that are able to rescue you from an attempt at your life

01:18:41

That doesn't those things are took mind -bogglingly opposite these well many many cities the

01:18:50

Black population has has been decimated by leftist policies all with good intentions.

01:18:55

I'm a war on poverty This is what we're gonna. Do we're gonna create this program to create this program Whatever you pay for Whatever you give to you get more of it if you you give me more money to wear a white suit

01:19:10

I'll probably wear a white suit. I mean free money right so you give money to people and To not to do something or to do something

01:19:21

They're gonna do more of it so women have babies out of wedlock They get paid for that Why not have two three or four of them

01:19:30

And so and then to then make the laws if there's a if there's a husband in the house

01:19:38

You get less so what happens is The babies are born and the husband the husband or boyfriend leaves because if he stays they get less money

01:19:50

So we've created this This this huge welfare system Supposedly out of good good intentions.

01:19:57

I remember when Katrina hit and there were so many people who were dispossessed as a result of that a lot of them ended up in Atlanta and I remember a couple of interviews that I that I saw where Many of the people said we didn't know this world existed they were in my early years

01:20:19

I was we lived in the projects and And That's your world.

01:20:25

That's what you see all around you and These people that's all they saw multi -generational in these housing projects

01:20:33

They came to Atlanta not because Atlanta was was greater than anything else It was just closer, and they said we're never going back because the opportunities here.

01:20:43

You know I'm Essentially free I'm no longer a slave so it In court unfortunately

01:20:50

Christians have never been taught these types of things. I'll you know sermons are

01:20:59

I Thinking you know the passage out of Hebrews chapter 5 You know by this time

01:21:07

You should be you should be practitioners of the law so you can discern between good and evil

01:21:13

Can't talk I can't even talk about it Melchizedek anymore Because your babes you become dull of hearing

01:21:19

You got churches that won't touch these subjects with a 10 -foot pole and one of the main reasons is the pastors don't know any they

01:21:26

Don't know this stuff either so now obviously Until we are in heaven the church is always going to have infighting and conflicts and division over even theological issues

01:21:44

And as I said even in house amongst those that are very much in harmony about many things

01:21:50

There's always gonna be division, but as far as government is concerned How can you counsel?

01:21:57

the Christians listening When they are being prepared to enter into a voting booth the next time or even

01:22:08

Before that when they are trying to Excite those around them about a

01:22:16

Candidate that they would like to see elected What are the things that you think that Christians should be?

01:22:23

Looking at most for in those areas in order for there to be more harmony

01:22:29

Amongst the body of Christ in that area because as I said before We have some very sharp divisions on understanding on The correct form of earthly government and the correct

01:22:43

Candidates that we should be voting for we have people who are reformed Even Theonomic who are never

01:22:52

Trump errs And you have those in that same category of theology who would love

01:22:57

Trump and are enthusiastic Okay, it's look that we got into this mess over a long period of time

01:23:02

It's gonna take a take some time to get out of this mess I got people say, oh, I'm not voting for Donald Trump because he's he's he's got problems.

01:23:11

I said, well, I know he's got problems And when you're in a war and we are in an ideal ideological war and they're going to be casualties in this war and not necessarily people being killed but People being shut out.

01:23:26

I mean what they're doing in China and in terms of social credit And so what are you gonna do you're gonna you're gonna vote for a third -party candidate who is not gonna win

01:23:36

But I voted that's my principle. I'm gonna vote for this guy. Well People say well,

01:23:42

I'm in California. It really doesn't matter what it does matter in California Look what happened with Hillary Clinton got all those votes and then they use that against the

01:23:51

Electoral College you get rid of Electoral College and I guarantee you you get rid of the Electoral College and it is gonna be troublesome so I Tell people you're not gonna be able to fix things overnight.

01:24:02

You're not gonna be able to fix things with with the Of who's going to be president? We have 535 members of Congress We have a judicial system we have state governments all those things have to change and but you have got to go in there and change things in terms of You know a biblical methodology, which most people don't have

01:24:27

But at the same time you can't say well that guy isn't Doesn't line up with my theology so I can't vote for him or that guy isn't a pure conservative

01:24:39

Constitutionalist because I can't vote for him because our system of government Is is a majority minority government in terms of of the

01:24:50

Senate and the House of Representatives And so while you might not like a

01:24:55

Susan Collins she's a Republican, but he or a Mitt Romney or Murkowski from out from it from Alaska you might not like them, but we need them in order to maintain the majority because The judicial the

01:25:16

Judicial part of our government That comes from the Senate, and if we didn't have that majority we would we would have a hundred and sixty new judges

01:25:24

That were the most leftist judges in the country And the same thing with Donald Trump look

01:25:31

You've got to get your list out piece of paper and put a line down the middle You'd say

01:25:36

I don't like Donald Trump, and I don't like the Democrat candidates, but then list all the things that Donald Trump has done and Compare those with what the

01:25:48

Democrats have done are doing and will do and I just think you're foolish because People say

01:25:54

I can't vote for the lesser of two evils. Oh really Tell me what candidate you've got that's that's without any evil

01:26:01

So there's a line that they're willing to draw somewhere because some people I know one guy he won't vote for anybody

01:26:07

He says because they're all they're all bad So he is he waiting for 535 you know congressmen and senators and Before he's gonna do anything that that's not gonna happen.

01:26:23

I mean that you need to you're in a war here and These whoever wins this whoever's in the foxhole with you

01:26:33

You're not gonna ask them You know what their theological beliefs are you're gonna make sure that they fight for you and right now

01:26:40

I don't like everything Donald Trump is doing. I don't like everything. He says but right now he's got his finger in the dike and We you know it's

01:26:49

I Don't I don't know what else to tell people I've written on this you know quite a bit And I don't want to say because of the stock market

01:26:57

You know look how well this economy is doing but Jack Krugman New York Times on November 9th 2016 wrote and right after that remember right after Trump was elected the stock market dropped

01:27:11

And he says it will never recover I think it was like eight thousand

01:27:17

It's twenty nine thousand plus. I don't know what it is today and You say well.

01:27:23

I'm not in the stock market. Yeah, everybody's in the stock market I don't care whether you have a stock you've bought you're in the stock market because when these companies are healthy guess what they're doing

01:27:33

They're producing products you buy at cheaper price, and they hire people So these companies go down you're gonna be out of a job

01:27:42

Unemployment is 3 .5 percent that never happened under under the Democrats because the Democrats need unemployment people to stay in power

01:27:50

So I'm getting off Now I've shifted to strategy here

01:27:56

But we have a long way to go to change things and a lot of people say well We need to let everything collapse first well.

01:28:04

They did that in the Soviet Union, too and In other places, and it was not a pretty picture and literally literally

01:28:14

Millions of people died at the hands of the Communists some have said you ever read the black book of Communism a hundred and million

01:28:21

People died are you willing to? Your pay that price because one of those hundred million could be you and all your children

01:28:28

We have to interrupt this conversation between Chris Arnson and Gary DeMar once again to go to our final break

01:28:34

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Chris Arnson host of iron sharpens iron radio here. I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years

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01:31:57

That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Welcome back to iron sharpens iron radio in this final segment

01:32:06

Chris Arnzen and Gary DeMar will conclude their discussion from the 2020 g3 conference

01:32:13

I have heard from professing Christians and I'll actually say that I believe they are my brethren some of them who will say that this one issue voting over the pro -life movement over the abortion issue is really in Many ways nonsensical because the people that you're typically voting for and the

01:32:42

Republican Party are only giving lip service right the pro -life Yeah, I agree that that's that's happening Or not happening however you phrase the question but they'll say so therefore we we should we are not limited to in their understanding voting for pro -life candidates because there are other issues that are of Great magnitude that we should be considering that other candidates

01:33:05

Have in superiority over the pro -life candidates very often and Since the pro -life candidates are doing nothing

01:33:13

We should be not so judgmental towards our brethren when they vote for perhaps even a

01:33:20

Democrat or somebody else that they Deem to be a more suitable candidate in spite of what their views are on abortion

01:33:27

Yeah, I mean look this this is I wrote an article number of years ago called politics is messy

01:33:33

And Even even the government within Israel was

01:33:42

I mean I mean David who was got to think about he was

01:33:47

God's choice ended up being a murderer and An adulterer and a murderer and even slept with young girls in order to keep warm and It's just it's messy.

01:34:01

We've got this we live in a sinful world It's it's what I think what we need to do is

01:34:07

I think what here's what's happening and this always happens The left is getting more and more consistent with its beliefs

01:34:17

Their Transgenderism even even some homosexuals are coming out against transgenderism

01:34:26

And and also a lot of feminists are coming out against it because of men competing as women

01:34:31

I was waiting for when that was going to happen and it finally has happened where the feminists are right and I'm always saying

01:34:37

Why is it that went what? Women who want to become men aren't going out for for men's sports

01:34:47

You know it's a one -way street right, but see now there's just being pushed back with all this and that's a that's a good thing

01:34:54

And so Christians, I think give up too soon In 2nd

01:35:00

Timothy chapter 3 people always read that they'd only read the first seven verses And they say look we're late because it says in the last days, and they think that's the distant distant future thing

01:35:10

But this is a letter to Timothy Paul was giving him instructions on how to live in the midst of this

01:35:16

Collapsing world that was going to come upon Judaism and and the tribulation that was coming upon even

01:35:22

Christians and he tells the story of Janice and Jambres who were the two sorcerer high priests and Pharaoh's Court who confronted

01:35:35

Moses and Aaron with the rod with the staffs that become serpents and so forth and but Paul says

01:35:44

They will not make further progress for their folly will be obvious to all and so what we're seeing today is the folly

01:35:54

Being obvious to all and all it takes is for Christians to push the folly

01:36:03

Greg Bonson used the phrase pushing the antithesis Forcing the unbelievers to live consistently with their operating worldview

01:36:12

Well, and we're there are a lot of people who are afraid to speak out is because afraid of losing their jobs

01:36:17

You wear a MAGA hat, you know, you're gonna get spit at beaten up if you go into a restaurant But as people more people get up and speak out on these issues and they find camaraderie with it

01:36:30

We will because a lot of people believe like you and I do but don't know how to articulate They just need to know that there are some people out there who think the way they do and I think that's happening

01:36:39

I think there's I think there's a change that's coming and people are critical of Trump But one of the things that Trump has done is push back

01:36:48

George Bush First of all, the biggest mistake he ever did was going to a war in Iraq.

01:36:55

I believe was a both an immoral and Unconstitutional war but the Democrats backed it too.

01:37:01

There's terrible terrible terrible in that we need to get out of that whole area And bring our troops home and let those guys fight it for themselves.

01:37:10

And then we we have our military They trying to come after us and that becomes a defensive war so These are factors that Christians need to see and and be involved in and get involved and pastors need to learn how to Preach from the

01:37:28

Bible on these particular topics and I get again. I'm pushing my book. I don't get make any royalties on it

01:37:34

But it's it there's enough sermon material in there to last you a year. I've made your job really easy for you.

01:37:41

I had a Friend of mine a black minister in the town where I used to live when

01:37:46

I had my show broadcasting it up, New York Who complained about a show that I did?

01:37:54

with a black pro -life activist pastor Clennard Childress Who operates the website black genocide work?

01:38:03

I'm familiar with the website. Yes, and I Invited him on my show to Vent his complaints about The programs that I did that were opposed to Barack Obama.

01:38:17

Not only his candidacy, but also subsequently his election and One of the things he brought up to me was this one -issue voting thing

01:38:25

And he says the thing that I have a hard time with and the mainstream Predominantly white evangelical community is that you're one -issue voters

01:38:33

It's the pro -life issue and nothing else seems to matter and I asked him a question. I said

01:38:40

If you had if you had learned of a candidate whether he was running for a mayor or governor or president and You were fascinated that he was agreeing with you on so many issues.

01:38:50

It seemed that every issue That he brought up you were in full agreement with him and then all sudden you found out he was a member of the

01:38:57

Ku Klux Klan. Yeah, I said would you vote for him? Oh, no, of course not Why not because he's a member of the

01:39:03

Ku Klux Klan. I said so that's what you're one issue and And he just couldn't even it was speechless he probably has more than one issue, right?

01:39:12

That's the thing and said how I said You know, we're talking about Dehumanizing Unborn child right which makes it easier to kill right

01:39:23

Nazis did it with the Jews and by the way Slave owners did it with the slaves, right? they're not persons and so You you belong to a party

01:39:36

That You're willing to have your your progeny killed for for whatever reason

01:39:44

I mean It's just it's especially since there is ample evidence proving that the origins of Planned Parenthood Were to eradicate the existence of their project.

01:39:56

Yeah, and yeah and mine to Italian I mean it was it was just you know We need to either lower because my my my mother was a she had 11 brothers and sisters and my father had 10 brothers and sisters and I didn't like the the early part of the you know that simmer, you know, that was just we were they were

01:40:12

Roman Catholic, but it's It's it's frustrating, but I'm a post -millennial is so I'm optimistic

01:40:21

Now before we run out of time I want you to at least address in Some fashion while we have time

01:40:28

The second day of your conference God the government in the last days

01:40:33

March 20th and 21st at hope reform Baptist Church Coram, Ohio The second day

01:40:39

March 21st will be on the Olivet discourse With a Q &A following if you could in summary form if you could mention anything you haven't already said that well

01:40:49

Matthew to the Olivet discourse is found in Matthew 24 Luke I mean well Luke 21 and Mark 13 and it's a it's a

01:40:58

Long exposition on what people consider to be the last days it doesn't say that in those texts, but that's what people maintain and Generally, they say well, this is

01:41:09

Jesus is describing things are going to take place Either before the rapture after Ever after the rapture of the mid part of the rapture right before the wrath of God has poured out

01:41:20

It's been used like that for a very very long time very very popular view and I think which a lot of people

01:41:26

I think they get it wrong and I'm gonna show how all of that discourse mainly focusing on Matthew's version but looking into into Mark because Mark has some very interesting parallels with Matthew chapter 10 and Luke because he's not writing to a particularly

01:41:48

Jewish audience Has some things that are worded a little differently which helps explain some of the things especially about the abomination of desolation and If you get that if you understand that much of the

01:42:03

New Testament opens up to you as To what what the

01:42:09

New Testament is really dealing with in various second second Thessalonians 2

01:42:14

With the man of lawlessness or the man of sin What who's the anti -christ thing which is a big big deal today

01:42:23

I just I just finished a book in fact it just came out today called the rapture in the fig tree generation and Explaining how the rapture is

01:42:34

Developed how that the whole theory got developed. This is a new book. That's yeah I just yeah, I just got it today actually it's in my back my bag back here

01:42:42

Oh, wow if I still have one. I'll give you a copy of it great and So I'm not doing it simply as a interest level

01:42:54

Series it's By understanding this you are not immobilized eschatologically

01:43:03

Because that prophetic inevitability which it was a prophetic inevitability Jesus said would take place before that generation passed away, and it's obviously a local judgment because all three

01:43:18

Gospel renditions of it is you could escape it by just on foot by leaving Judea It's it people seem to miss that and it's interesting how many people

01:43:29

Tend to or more wouldn't literal hermeneutic of Understanding the

01:43:36

Bible would be on the opposite side of interpretation when it comes to that. Oh, oh, it's it's it's marvelous

01:43:44

It's marvelous to listen to them Don't know Tim LaHaye talks about the second person plural

01:43:52

You will be hearing wars of rumors of wars, but he says when you get down to verse 9

01:44:00

It it stops referring to that particular generation so the second person plural you refers to a more generic audience

01:44:12

How Where do you see that in the text or or Daniel 9?

01:44:19

24 through 27 it's big big path the Antichrist is in there the Antichrist is rebuilding the temple Making a covenant with the

01:44:25

Jews breaking the covenant with the Jews Where is this where do you see this in this text it's not none of its there or How do you put a gap between the 69th and 70th week all of a sudden got 483 years nearly a 2 ,000 year gap and now now seven more years.

01:44:43

How did this gap get in there? I? Said we're in Scripture. Do you find any number given whether it's?

01:44:51

days of the week Week or years that God gives a number and all of a sudden he splits it in half and Puts a gap in it and and Daniel 9 begins with Daniel reading

01:45:08

The book of Jeremiah 25 11 and it talks about The The exile being 70 years and Daniel probably by this time is pretty old man

01:45:21

And this is about to come to an end and what if God had? Said you know after they're there 70 years and people are ready.

01:45:29

It's we're gonna get out We're gonna take it one more year to go Well another year and another year and said maybe they calculated said no we got this right

01:45:36

We're one of the prophets so they can talk to God because I didn't tell you this it wasn't in the text, but I Put a gap between the 69th and the 70th year of your captivity.

01:45:48

I'm not counting the gap It's still only 70 years But there's a gap and you don't know when that last year is going to come and so I believe that the

01:45:58

Daniel 9 to 70 years of captivity and Daniel 70 weeks of years

01:46:05

There there are the same there the set you interpret them the same way in fact the verb It's not 70 years are it's 70 years is

01:46:14

It's seen as a unit anyway those are the kinds of things I'll talk about but most of it will focus on Matthew 24, and then

01:46:20

I'll bring in these other things in fact I've got a debate on Tuesday with a on the rapture

01:46:26

When I get back back home Yeah And since this will probably be airing after that actually occurs that I'd love to have you back to give a yeah a summary of that Just a last couple of things some of what you have described has been nicknamed or labeled preterism or partial preterism and Just like there is an existence of something

01:46:49

Known as hyper Calvinism there are those that we would consider hyper preterists

01:46:55

They would never call themselves that obviously but Isn't there a danger whenever you find?

01:47:03

something that is truth Especially it tends to happen. I think when it's an unpopular truth, and you're very

01:47:11

Excited about this thing that you've discovered But unfortunately just like with Calvinism those who have discovered preterism

01:47:19

All of a sudden become so enamored with this idea that they become

01:47:25

Actively involved unconsciously of course in Eisegesis where they want to take that truth and force it everywhere where it doesn't belong and there you then you wind up having a heretical

01:47:37

Yeah, I think you're right. It's this you know every position. I forget how many different preterist views there are there's

01:47:47

Just like there's a King James only View of the Bible there's an

01:47:52

Israel only regarding eschatology and So yeah,

01:47:59

I it's it's just you know kind of you know kind of typical I don't I mean certain circles people people know me as a preterist, but I call myself as a partial futurist

01:48:10

So I believe majority of these passages in the New Testament refer to the destruction of Jerusalem in 80 70 and yet There's still

01:48:18

You know the here's the thing about Preterists these I don't like hyper preterists full preterists

01:48:29

They have no concept of the things we're talking about culturally They don't have anything for that I've never seen a book on the

01:48:39

Christian worldview from a full preterist Everything stopped at a d70 that's it's just there for none of them are post -millennial or anything.

01:48:49

Oh, yeah, they don't like post -millennial ism Either because everything is everything is

01:48:55

Everything is done. It's all over and so there there are there are other issues with the well, and it's hard to pick which is the

01:49:03

Which of the 12 or so different preterist positions are you know you should you should follow, but at the same time?

01:49:10

They asked some good questions that you just can't dismiss by saying well there It's in the confession

01:49:16

Just that's you know that's never satisfied me And it shouldn't satisfy because on any issue yeah because our she's

01:49:23

R. C. Sproul wrote a book the last days according to Jesus and He you know he even said and this was a private thing that was going on A session where he was

01:49:38

Said look I'm gonna go where the Bible goes on this So I Think more.

01:49:44

I think more study needs to be done in the area of eschatology. I've That's an interest of mine.

01:49:50

I write a lot about it, and I write for me I've always told people until I understand it.

01:49:57

I'm not like Till I believe it and understand it. I can't comment on it because I lots of things.

01:50:04

I just don't know All right might interesting might interest our listeners to know that at some point

01:50:10

More than likely in the in the future of when this interview that I'm having with Gary airs

01:50:15

I'm going to be having a two -day debate God willing on hyper preterism or full preterism

01:50:23

Between Don Preston who is the most well -known figure in that camp and Sam Frost who used to frost

01:50:30

Sam Frost who used to be a colleague of Don's and Actually has written things that Don has published and he has departed from that view

01:50:38

And I'll be keeping you updated on when that will occur on iron trip is iron in two consecutive days

01:50:43

But if you could conclude the program How do you believe? This is helpful this right understanding of eschatology this right understanding of what?

01:50:56

Texts should really be attributed to the destruction of the temple in 8070.

01:51:01

How does that other than? Understanding truth is always important, and we should never trivialize

01:51:08

Truth especially when it involves monumental occurrences in the scriptures, but how would this?

01:51:18

Help improve a Christian's life as he out he tries to live out the scriptures and live as Godly and obedient a life as he can well

01:51:29

I think the first thing is it's the integrity of the Bible you can't make words like near and shortly and quickly mean far

01:51:37

They mean they're opposite you can't take this generation and mean well means As Tim LaHaye and Tommy I say the generation that sees these signs here

01:51:46

You got to take the word this away and add words to it So you there's an adulteration of the

01:51:52

Bible when it comes when it comes to this so the integrity of the Bible is important plus Much of the popular prophetic systems today are focused on the

01:52:04

Middle East they are expecting a War to take place now the the pre the pre trip guys

01:52:15

They believe that they're gonna miss it all So what do they care and then there are ironically they do though What's kind of funny about this is and I bring this up.

01:52:25

I bring this up all the time It's their position. This is all supposed to be about Israel See God has a plan for Israel.

01:52:33

I said what is that plan I had a debate with? Dr.. Brown what's

01:52:42

Michael Brown Michael Brown on this issue and to this date. He hasn't gotten back with me Because he's not a priest.

01:52:48

He doesn't believe in a preacher right right. He's not a dispensation No, and I said, but you do believe in this seven -year period they all do

01:52:54

I don't care What the position is because it's based upon Daniel 9 I said I Said Michael you believe in the future of Israel.

01:53:07

He said oh yes. Oh yes. He made that very very clear I Said so what do you do with?

01:53:13

Zechariah chapter 13 7 through 9 where it says that two -thirds of the Jews living in Israel During this tribulation appeal appeal period are going to be slaughtered

01:53:21

I Said are you telling me that God waited almost 2 ,000 years to?

01:53:28

So that all Israel will be saved and two -thirds of them are going to be go through another

01:53:35

Holocaust and so what is what they're really saying is it's not all Israel will be saved

01:53:41

But all that's left of Israel after two -thirds of them are slaughtered right to be saved you see

01:53:46

I Believe that passage is really talking about the book of Acts It's what took it was taking place in the book of Acts you see the separation of Jews who believed in Jesus and those who didn't and Those who didn't and stayed within the city when it was destroyed

01:54:06

Weren't you know they say like over a million there are a million of them were Well, I guess it was a million of them that Josephus says that but see

01:54:15

Jesus issued a warning He says when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies you better get out of town and head to the hills

01:54:22

You see nobody's warning Jews today in fact there's a ministry out there That's paying them to fly to Israel which always made me

01:54:30

I don't even know if I should chuckle about it, but the irony there. They are so in their minds

01:54:38

Loving Jews That they want them as quickly and in as great numbers as possible

01:54:44

Return to a place where most of them will be murdered Yeah, exactly like they're putting them on a train to Auschwitz, so this is

01:54:50

I don't believe that I say you may not believe that But that's the system you believe and that's the part of the problem people don't know their own system

01:54:58

And every debate I bring this up I debated Tommy ice over this and he was incensed and his here's what here was his answer

01:55:04

Well billions of other people are going to be killed, too That's great great to know well see that becomes a prophetic inevitability

01:55:12

This is the way it's going to be and so if there's war in the Middle East Oh, it must the Antichrist must be around, but see it's anyway, so integrity of the

01:55:20

Bible and it's it's Eschatological its impact on how Christians think about the future

01:55:26

Everybody has an eschatology the atheist has an eschatology the communists have an eschatology the

01:55:32

Muslims have an eschatology and if I Guarantee you their eschatology is future oriented now you think yours is future oriented because you're going to be raptured

01:55:42

But I'm here to tell you there's no verse in the Bible not a single verse in the Bible that says That the church is going to be taken off the earth either before a seven -year period in the middle of the seven -year period at the end of the seven -year period

01:55:56

Partially or right before the wrath of God is going to be it's going to be unleashed There is no single verse in the

01:56:02

Bible that says that if you can find me that verse email me at American vision and And I'll tell you that probably the verse that you're looking at it doesn't say any of those things so You know they have to rebuild the temple

01:56:22

You know there isn't a single verse in the New Testament It says anything about a rebuilt temple now the Old Testament does and the fact the temple was rebuilt

01:56:29

But there will be at a point in time at the end of all earthly history when the Saints are caught up Yeah, but I mean to Jesus talks forget where this is it talks about unto a thousand generations

01:56:45

Okay, that's that's 40 ,000 years and if you believe in six -day creation, we've got what 34 34 ,000 years to go

01:56:56

So one thing this should instill within Christians it should

01:57:05

Prevent apathy it should Prevent indifference about what occurs on this earth it should instill with them more zeal

01:57:17

To be working as strongly as ever for the kingdom your family

01:57:23

Get yourself an order to get your family in order your church get your kids out of the government schools

01:57:31

You know start a business teach your kids a trade I mean

01:57:37

Get into every field Possible that your children should be involved in Filmmaking make some good movies.

01:57:44

I mean some of this stuff that comes out from Christians is absolutely horrible Yeah, if you're gonna publish a book learn how to typeset and don't think you can put like six different font sizes on a page

01:57:56

I mean The you know used to be you talk about chemistry and science

01:58:02

Samuel FB Morris and the Morse code and the telegraph Robert Boyle on chemistry

01:58:09

Isaac Newton all these guys these were these were Christians you wouldn't have science today if it weren't for the Christian worldview

01:58:15

But Christians today You know We got Hobby Lobby, which is

01:58:21

I'm not putting Hobby Lobby down But see they've they've done something, you know business wise

01:58:27

Chick -fil -a. I know there's a great deal Disappointment with Chick -fil -a They had a good run, but they capitulated right

01:58:36

And you know, you got to teach your kids. I was just we're gonna have to close close with this guy Look around a little bit more here, but there was a

01:58:46

Waitress or server, I guess they're called now waiting on some young kids at a restaurant and it was yes, ma 'am and so forth and They were just so polite and just did everything right and all that and even cleaned up after themselves

01:59:03

Put everything in at the tray on the on the table and all that. She was so impressed by that She took a video of it now.

01:59:09

It's gone viral on on the internet You see service you doing, you know teaching your your kids how to serve and There's just so much we could do that doesn't take politics you don't have to be into politics to change the world

01:59:28

But you better get into it because politics ends up, you know changing you in one way or another Well, I want to make sure our listeners

01:59:36

Remember that your website is American vision org American vision org Gary It has been an honor to have you back in the program.

01:59:44

Thank you for spending so much time with me today Yeah, it was only supposed to go 15 minutes happened. Was that about an hour? I have no idea but it flew by as far as I'm concerned

01:59:52

Thanks again, and I look forward to your frequent return to iron trip and czar and radio good to see you again Always Chris.

01:59:57

All right. God bless. I hope you've enjoyed this program of interviews from recent conferences

02:00:03

There's more of this to come so please plan to listen to iron sharpens iron radio over the next few days

02:00:09

Please continue to pray for Chris as he irons out technical difficulties at the iron sharpens iron radio studio

02:00:15

And as Chris would want you to know I hope that you remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far far greater