February 5, 2020 Show with Conference Interviews featuring Dr. Steven J. Lawson, Daryl Updike, AND Gary DeMar

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister, George Norcross, in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, Champaign County, Illinois, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming to ironsharpensironradio .com.

I am Eric Nielsen, and I'm sitting in today again for Chris Arnzen as we come to a second day of conference interviews. Today we have three interviews. The first is from the Foundations Conference in New York this past December.

Chris had the opportunity to sit down with Stephen Lawson and speak for a few moments. That interview will be followed by a conversation that Chris had with a listener, Daryl Updike, from the 2019 G3 Conference.

And finally, we will have an interview that is the longest 15 minutes in radio history with Gary DeMar, an interview that took place at the G3 Conference just a couple of weeks.

Ago.

Before we begin the interview with Steve Lawson, I'd just like to ask you to continue to pray for Chris Arnzen. His health, I believe, is better at this point, but now the Ironsharpensironradio studios are facing some technical difficulties.

Chris does have somebody coming in to look at some issues, but your prayers would be much appreciated as we look to resolve those issues. And now let's listen to Chris and his conversation with Steve Lawson at the 2019 Foundations Conference.

Today's Ironsharpensironradio broadcast features interviews that were conducted on-site on Thursday and Friday, December 19th and 20th at the Foundations Conference in New York City. Please excuse the background noises and other imperfections in the recording due to the.

I hope you enjoy these wonderful interviews. I'm here with one of my favorite preachers alive on the planet Earth, Stephen Lawson, founder of One Passion Ministries, and it's such a blessing to be here with you at the Foundations Conference in New York City once again.

Dr. Lawson, can you tell us briefly about One Passion Ministries?

It's just a ministry designed to minister to pastors in a way to help them in expository preaching. Many preachers have never had a formal education, and I want to help provide structure for them to think through how to preach.

Other men have had formal training, and quite frankly, it was not good training as it relates to preaching. A lot of seminaries really do not do, I think, an adequate job in training men to preach. They give them theology and exegetical tools, but the preaching ends up being more on-the-job.

Training.

Predominantly, I host conferences to help pastors sharpen their thinking and understanding as to what is effective preaching and how can I do it better. Every great preacher is wanting to get better. Every average preacher should want to get better.

Every mediocre preacher ought to be trying to get to the next level of effectiveness in their preaching, and if you're not, you're probably going backwards, quite frankly. I also produce podcasts and a magazine and many other things with One Passion Ministry.

I do this around the country. I do it overseas. If you reach a pastor, you're reaching 200 people. You're reaching 500 people. So it's a multiplying effect in that regard.

What do you think are the main elements missing from the dominant preaching that we have today in the United States?

Well, preaching is from A to Z, so there's not a one-size-fits-all answer. Some preachers do a very good job. Other preachers do a very poor job. Other preachers are in the spectrum someplace in the middle.

So I can't give an answer that encompasses every preacher in America or around the world. I would just say it really begins with really an understanding even with what expository preaching is, which is nothing more than biblical preaching.

A lot of guys, when they stand up, are just lecturers. They're just teachers. They're just giving moral dissertations. They're cultural commentators. They're bloggers in the pulpit. They don't really even understand what a sermon is and how a sermon is to be prepared and how a sermon is to be delivered.

So I think it really just begins with a fundamental understanding of even what preaching is and how to prepare an expository sermon and how to stand in the pulpit and to deliver it, not just what the text says but what the text demands, what the text requires, and how to structure it.

Great preaching is linear from one to two to three to four. It's not circular where the preacher is chasing rabbits and going off on side trails. So there's so much to say, quite frankly. That's why I teach first-year, second-year, third-year preaching at the Master's Seminary.

I need three years of your life. I can't give a five-minute answer, and that's why I'm the dean of the doctoral program on expository preaching. I need a couple of years of your life to teach you what it is, and unfortunately, a lot of guys do not know that they do not know, and so that promotes just staying in the rut where you are.

There's much more, obviously, I could say, but you've got to understand what preaching is and how to prepare for it and how to deliver it. If we had time, there's a hundred other things to say.

The name of your ministry is one Passion Ministries, and although there are many passionate preachers in Reformed circles theologically, including the men that are preaching at this conference, but we do have a reputation as Reformed Christians for having too many preachers that lack passion when they ascend into a pulpit.

You mentioned lecturing before. Do you think that is a seriously dangerous thing when brilliant men ascend to a pulpit, but they are merely approaching the gospel in an academic fashion?

Yeah, absolutely. Lecturing is wonderful in a classroom. It's awful in a pulpit. And many men in the pulpit are gifted to teach. They're just not gifted to preach, and so it really affects the entire church, like priests, like people.

And so, however, if it is a highly intellectual pulpit, which Reformed people tend to be because you have to think to be Reformed. You have to really be a reader, a learner, a student, connect the dots.

If you come across that way, then you're going to produce a church that is a library club that is ready to argue at the drop of a hat any point at which you disagree with us on anything, and you're going to produce a church that's probably going to end up being legalistic, a church that is very argumentative, that really lacks grace and love and patience with people because they have just sat under diatribes on theology.

And I love theology, and the Bible is rich and robust with theology, but it's the manner in which it is presented. No one wants to eat cold scrambled eggs. The scrambled eggs can be good, but if they're cold, they're awful and inedible, unedible.

And if you've got great theology, but you present it in a cold, monotone fashion, then quite frankly, I don't want to hear it in a worship service. I might come to your Sunday school class. I might come to your seminary class, but don't be masquerading as a preacher.

Because you're not. And in fact, I would even say we need fewer preachers, not more preachers. We have too many people who think they are preachers, when they're really not. We have too many smaller churches that just really, there's not enough preachers for every one of these churches.

God hadn't given that many gifted preachers. So some churches need to merge back together and come together, and every pulpit ought to have a real bonafide preacher who actually has been trained and taught in how to do what he's doing.

There are a few exceptions, like a Spurgeon or a Lloyd-Jones, but they are far and away the exception and not the rule. It really cannot be amateur hour in the pulpit where you're trying to find yourself and you have this desire, but you've never really been given adequate training to do this.

But passion is indispensable. At the end of this conference, I'll be speaking on passion and preaching. And quite frankly, if there is no passion, there is no preaching. So it's not something that would be good if you had passion.

No, if you don't have passion, sit down. You're not a preacher. So it's that essential.

Now, lastly, we are approaching rapidly the Christmas season, and Christmas is one of my favorite times of year. And in fact, it's one of the favorite times of year for people globally, even if they do not really know Christ.

And one of the things that is a tragedy is that Christmas can make Jesus a safer thought in their minds, a helpless, harmless baby in a manger. What are the signs that when a person examines themselves, they can rest assured that when this Jesus returns, not only to bring his people with him into eternal glory with him, but also with wrath against those who have rebelled against him?

How can we know that we are ready to meet this Jesus the second time?

Well, there's internal witness and external witness. The internal witness is in your heart. Have you truly repented of your sins and believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and really believed into the Lord Jesus Christ?

Have you truly committed all that you are to Jesus Christ? Have you submitted to his lordship? Have you surrendered your life and entrusted yourself to Christ who died for your sins upon the cross completely?

It really begins there based on the authority of Scripture. And there is the inward witness of the Holy Spirit who testifies to your heart that you're a child of God. But there is the external witness, which is a changed life and the evidence of the new birth.

First John gives about eight evidences of the new birth. So you would need to see those evidences.

Thank you, Dr. Lawson.

I hope you enjoyed that interview with Steve Lawson. At the G3 conference every year, Chris interviews a number of people. He tries to interview the speakers if he is able to. He likes to interview a number of famous and influential speakers that may not be on tap at that particular conference, but they happen to be attending and are available for interviews.

And one of the things that I've always enjoyed is when Chris brings somebody over from one of the booths because there are so many people there with fascinating ministries that are displaying information about the things that they do and the ways that the Lord is using their ministry.

But Chris also takes the opportunity when he gets a chance to interview his listeners who stop by the table to say hi. And this next interview is one of those. It's with a fellow named Darrell Updike.

Let's give it a listen.

This is Chris Arnzen at the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta, Georgia. And this is the G3 conference. And I am so thrilled to be here. This is my very first interview that I'm conducting on site at the Iron Trip and Zion Radio Exhibitor's booth.

And this just so happens to be a brother in Christ who listens to Iron Trip and Zion Radio that I providentially bumped into while I was actually loitering at James White's Exhibitor's booth for Alpha Omega Ministries.

His name is Darrell Updike, and he is from Bordertown, New Jersey. And it's great to see you, Darrell.

Good to see you, too.

Tell us, first of all, where you fellowship and how long you've been aware of the G3 conference and what brought you here today. How did you discover that they were having this conference here this week?

Yeah, I fellowship at Shady Rest Bible Church in Chesterfield, New Jersey.

That's also the inn that was on the Petticoat Junction program, if I'm not mistaken. Shady Rest, remember?

Shady Rest.

But anyway, sorry.

It's okay.

So, is it a Reformed church, or?

No, it is a non-denominational, just a Bible church, yeah.

And so how did you hear about the G3 conference?

I believe I first heard about G3, might have even been through your program.

Oh, great.

Yeah, and just been searching it through other social media networks, YouTube, watching the preaching that comes out of this conference, and just truly been blessed.

Now, I'm always encouraged when I meet people that make it a point to approach me and let me know that they listen to Iron Trip and Zion Radio and are blessed by it. Can you remember how long ago you first discovered Iron Trip and Zion Radio and how you discovered it?

I think it was a few years ago, maybe two or three. I was listening to Apologia Radio, and I think Jeff Durbin might have mentioned that you were interviewing him on your program about martial arts.

Yes.

And if Christians should do martial arts and other Eastern philosophy-type things.

Great. I'm very glad to hear that. Love brother Jeff, and looking forward to getting him back on Iron Trip and Zion. He's become harder and harder to break free from his busy schedule. But so tell our listeners something about your own life personally, what kind of religious atmosphere, if any, you were raised in, and what providential circumstances our sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you?

Well, I was raised in a Roman Catholic household. My mom, Roman Catholic, took us to church every Sunday, so I had a background in religion, kind of in the terms of Christianity is what I tell people.

Roman Catholics have all the names right, but it's what saves you that they have wrong. And then I kind of went away from my faith for a while, or any faith. I don't think I was ever an atheist, but I kind of was more indifferent to it.

And then actually, a point in my life came up where my wife and I almost got divorced. And a friend of mine, I asked her, she was divorced at the time and remarried. I asked her, when do you get divorced?

And she told me, you don't get divorced. And that totally was unexpected. And then she gave me a movie called Fireproof with Kirk Cameron in it. And I watched it, and I heard the gospel in that movie.

And it was kind of like God was showing me how I was living, thinking I was living sacrificially, but I wasn't. I was living for myself. And at the end of that movie, I prayed that God would change me and change my heart.

And from that point, that was six years ago. And he started to change me. And then two years later, my wife came to faith. And now we're both going to church together. We're at this conference, which I would have never thought would have happened.

But it's totally the sovereign Lord.

Amen. Now, you just said before that the congregation where you're a member is not specifically reformed. Are you? Have you embraced the doctrines of sovereign grace?

Yes, I have. Yes, I can't not unsee it in the Scripture. It's there. And I don't know how you can't read the Scriptures and see God's sovereign hand over all of salvation, and it's there. You can't deny it.

Now, I believe people who don't believe that way are still brothers and sisters in Christ.

Oh, of course.

But I don't know how they can't see it either.

Well, we as reformed Christians, as you know, give 100 of the praise, honor, and glory to Jesus Christ for every good thing. And therefore, even understanding the doctrines of sovereign grace and embracing them comes from him.

It does not mean that our, as you just said, our non-reformed brothers are not our brothers. They are, of course, are. And for some reason, on their journey here on earth, the Lord has not chosen to reveal these things to them at this time.

We don't know why that is. But we just know what the truth is, and we praise God for him revealing the truth to us. And so tell us about your response to your experience at the G3 conference today. By the way, is this your first G3 conference?

Yeah, this is our first G3 conference.

And so tell us about what you have heard and how you have responded to it.

It's been amazing so far. We heard, you know, Pastor Josh Bice. I don't know if I say that right.

It's Bice.

Bice. Yes, Pastor Josh Bice. His message was awesome. What I like is it's always pointed back to the local church. You know, it's not like just go on your own. It's always under that authority of the local church, which we see a lot of, like, rogue Christians that do missions or do street preaching that aren't sent by their local church authority.

I love that it's always pointing back to that. And we saw Tim Challies and David Miller. And David Miller is such a blessing to hear him preach. And just everything's off his head. Like, he just has the whole Bible memorized.

And it makes me feel like, man, I can't even memorize one verse sometimes. And he's got it all in his head. But it's such a blessing to a Christian.

Yeah, I had the privilege of interviewing David Miller about a year ago. And it was truly a joy. He is a rare breed of preachers. His methodology or manner in preaching seems to be a dying art, if you will.

And it's sad because the old time powerful preachers seem to be fewer and farther between. They seem to be more from a bygone era. But it's always good to hear brothers like him preach. Well, I hope that you continue to listen to Iron Trip and Zion Radio and spread the word about it.

In fact, if you wouldn't mind taking a flyer and see if your pastor will give you permission to hang it somewhere.

Sure.

So that others will discover it. I'm very honored to have met you. And you did bless me more than you'll ever know. Just to let me know that Iron Trip and Zion Radio is a blessing to you.

Thank you. And thanks for your ministry.

Well, God bless you, brother.

I hope that you enjoyed that interview with Daryl Updike. And I hope that if you have a chance to visit with Chris at a conference, I'm sure he would be glad to say hi. And you may even be interviewed yourself.

At the beginning of the show, I referred to this next interview as the longest 15 minutes in radio history. And the reason I said that is that I was standing there getting ready to record this interview with Chris and Gary DeMar.

And as they were about to begin the interview, Gary looked over at Chris and said, how long should this interview be? And Chris, of course, being very accommodating, said, well, as long as you'd like the interview to be.

And Gary looked at his watch and said, well, let's do 15 minutes. And Chris and Gary both looked at their watches and synchronized and said, OK, let's do 15 minutes. Well, as you'll be able to tell, that interview lasted a little bit longer.

And so here is Chris Arnzen speaking with Gary DeMar at G3 2020.

Chris Arnzen here again on site at the G3 conference at the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta, Georgia. And this event would never be the same for me without a visit from my friend Gary DeMar, president of American Vision.

And it's a thrill not only to have the opportunity to fellowship with you over lunch again here in Atlanta, but also to have you back on Iron Tripper's Iron Radio.

It's always good seeing you. I think the last time we met was here.

Yeah.

And we both went out to got our. We got went to the barber and got our hair cut.

That's right. It was an interesting experience. I know. I know. And well, first of all, why don't you let our listeners know? I mean, it's very unlikely I have too many listeners that aren't familiar with you in some way in your ministry, American Vision.

But tell us about in summary fashion about American Vision.

Well, American Vision was started back in 1979. I came on board in 1980, and its emphasis back then was on America's Christian heritage, thus American Vision. And that was a that was a big, big deal back then.

Today, David Barton, with Wall Builders, pretty much the expert in that area. And and I came on. And the first thing I did was was partially edited a production audio tape called American Vision 360 years later, which took you through a whole span of America's Christian heritage over a 360 year, 60 year period.

I actually won an Angel Award. And but my interests were broader than that, and so began to move American Vision into a Christian biblical worldview. And I wrote a series of books, three volumes called God and Government, defining government as God's government over all things, and then self-government under God, family government, church government, and then a decentralized civil government.

And that that series is now in a single volume just called God and Government. And it it pulls all of those those issues together to lay out a Christian worldview as to what it what the Bible says about economics and education and what justice in terms of courts and to witnesses, all those types of types of things.

It has been used in the Christian school movement for for decades. So and then we've moved into other areas as well, as you know, eschatology, because I would go out and I would go out and speak on God and government.

People invite me and invariably there'd be somebody in the audience would say, why are we why are we bothering with this? Because Jesus is coming back soon. All the signs are are in place. And now this was in this was in the 1980s.

I had written volume one in 82 and then I had written volume two in 84 and then volume three in 86. And that was the decade of the this generation will not pass away until all these things take place, where Israel became a nation again in 1948.

And then generation was 40 years. And so 40 plus 1948 is 1988. And so that was big, big, big. This is way before the left behind stuff came out. And so I got into eschatology to answer that objection.

And so with God and government and the eschatology and apologetics and my concentration on apologetics is mostly in the area of the the moral side of of the creation evolution debate. If we're just we've just evolved and through the millennia, you know, we fought for our lives and our existence based upon killing the weaker.

Who's to say anything is right and wrong today. And in doing that, I use I use atheist arguments. I use the things they actually say, which is striking Richard Dawkins and others. So but eschatology, the apologetics and America's Christian heritage are probably the three things that I concentrate on the most economic.

I do a lot on the issue of economics, which is really a subset under the topic of government.

And I may have addressed this with you in a previous interview. I just don't remember right now. But in your own theological and eschatological journey in life, how did you arrive at a post millennial understanding?

Well, I became a Christian in 1973. So it was the heyday of late great planet Earth. And like everyone, you know, you you get interested in that. But as I started reading the Bible, I just couldn't reconcile it with what I was reading, especially the Gospel of Matthew.

And then I picked up a book. The librarian at seminary had put some books for sale from his library. It was a short book, hardback, red cover, and it just had Matthew 24 stamped on it.

Hmm.

And I picked that up and I'd given up on the topic of eschatology. I just, you know, seminary was consuming all my time anyway, learning Greek and Hebrew and all the other stuff.

And which seminary was this?

This is Reformed Theological Seminary in Jackson, Mississippi. They've now expanded. They got one in Orlando, Washington, D .C., I think Dallas, Charlotte. And I read that book and it literally transformed my thinking on the topic.

Because what Marcellus Kick, that's the fellow who wrote it, who actually was first published in 1948 originally, and it has since been combined with his commentary on Revelation called An Eschatology of Victory.

But his understanding of Matthew 24, which was not unique to him, it's pretty much been the standard view throughout history. What the events of Matthew 24 weren't describing the end of the world. They were describing events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

So, and other passages related to that. So when you apply that principle in other parts of Scripture, a lot of the passages that have been used to describe what the end of the world was going to be like, they go away and now you got to start talking about, okay, so now what does the future hold?

And I was never really satisfied with any of the millennial positions because I don't think Revelation chapter 20 really describes a millennium. I mean, a thousand years is a millennium technically, but what we think about a millennium, those attributes of characteristics of a millennium aren't found in Revelation 20.

And so essentially it was Matthew 28, you know, Jesus said, go into all the world and make disciples of all the nations. And that's essentially my shift to, I hate to use the word post-millennialism because it kind of restricts you to Revelation 20.

It's simply applying God's word to every area of life. And I've always been kind of interested in applicational things. How does this work? How does this apply? And when I became a Christian, I just transferred that over to the theological stuff.

Well, I just want to make sure, even though I intend to repeat this later on in our discussion, but I want everybody to know that if they want to learn more about American Vision, they can go to AmericanVision .org.

Right.

AmericanVision .org.

We need to take a short break from this interview to hear a word from our sponsors. We'll be right back in a few moments.

As revealed in scripture, through the person and work of our Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end of which we strive is the glory of God. If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some Lord's day in worshiping our God and Savior.

Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin. Our website is GraceChurchAtFranklin .org. That's GraceChurchAtFranklin .org. This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.

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Go to nasbible .com, that's nasbible .com to place your order. Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here. I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

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Welcome back to Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. Let's continue listening to our interview with Gary DeMar.

I know that you are going to be conducting a conference that I plan to attend, God willing. Very excited about it. As is my former co-host on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, Buzz Taylor. He's likely going to take the trip out from Pennsylvania to New York to attend this event.

This is going to be God, the Government, and the Last Days Conference March 20th and the 21st to be held at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, pastored by my dear friends Pastor Rich Jensen and Pastor Christopher McDowell.

And I am so thrilled that this is going to be taking place. And my friend Anthony Eugenio, who is the founder of New York Apologetics, he is one of the key people involved in organizing this event. March 20th, you're going to be discussing God and government with a Q &A following.

And then on March 21st, you're going to be discussing the Olivet Discourse with a Q &A following. If you could give us an overview of those two things that you are going to be specifically addressing at the conference.

God and government. How is this issue, in your opinion, being wrongly approached by professing Bible-believing Christians, not only in the United States, but even across the world? What are your average Christians, perhaps even most of your average Christians, missing about this?

Well, I would say the first thing is that people say, you want to put God back in government. I always tell people, every government idolizes some God. The state is God. I mean, some of these philosophers, the state is God walking on earth.

Every government, atheist government, believes it's God. The justices of the Supreme Court, they're the final decision on, that makes them the God. If they're the final standards, like by what standard, what are these judges using to make this determination?

Christians, unfortunately, are under the false impression that we just shouldn't get involved in politics because Jesus didn't get mixed up in politics. We're not supposed to judge. There's a separation between church and state.

Politics is dirty. You just keep on going down the list. We've all heard these things over the years. And then, of course, the eschatological side of things. We're living in the last days. Why are we bothering?

The eschatology part is pretty easy in my mind. With the God in government, I'll bring those principles in, but make them contemporary to where we are today and to help Christians understand that being involved in, they're already involved in government.

They're involved in self-government, family government, church government. Civil government is ordained by God. I guarantee you, if they're not involved in civil government, civil government is still involved in them.

This is being held in New York, and it's one of the biggest tax states in the union. I was listening to a show on the way over here, and a fellow was talking about the near mass exodus from states like Illinois and, of course, California and New York and New Jersey because of tax issues.

When the state taxes you, they're stealing your money if they're using that money for wealth redistribution if the civil government is doing something that God has not ordained for it to do. You can't avoid government.

Why would you let people run your life, forcing you to comply with certain things, and also to possibly bring a judgment of God with, say, New York's abortion law and Maryland's abortion law? I guess it's not Maryland.

It's Virginia's abortion law, which is pretty much Washington, D .C. because of the northern tier of the state. So you can't avoid it. If eschatologically, we're not living in the last days, then what do your children, your grandchildren, your great-grandchildren, what kind of world are we leaving to them?

So these are very, very important features. And to say that the Bible doesn't address politics is just plain nonsense. You've got two books in the Bible called Kings. What do you do with something like that?