About That Debate | Trent Horn

Wise Disciple

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Welcome welcome. Thank you so much for watching this particular video. If you are brand new to this channel or this ministry

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My name is Nate Sala. I'm the president of a Christian organization called wise disciple and here at wise disciple

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We're all about living effectively as Christians in today's culture now if you like Interviews videos like these where I sit down and talk to other

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Apologists or theologians then definitely let me know in the comments below we can make this kind of stuff happen

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So hopefully these materials and resources will benefit you, but I'm not gonna waste another moment

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Join me as I sit down and chat with Trent horn Trent horn is an adjunct professor of apologetics at Holy Apostles College.

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He serves as a staff apologist For Catholic answers, you can hear him on the radio show

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Catholic answers live as well as his own podcast the Council of Trent This is very clever

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He's also the author of nine books including Answering atheism how to make the case for God with logic and clarity

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Trent horn. Thanks so much for joining me Thank you for having me Nate Well, I'm really happy to be chatting with you and I'm pretty sure

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I said this like on a video I made recently but you have to be one of the best apologetics debaters.

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I've ever seen so it's a real treat to have you Well, thank you, that's very kind and that that means a lot coming from someone who has a debate background like yourself well,

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I Want to get into your background actually, this is why we're having you come on. I want to chat about Debate with you.

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I know my audience has been talking about this a lot more like, you know How to debate tactics debate strategy stuff like that So if we can let's go all the way back to young Trent horn.

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Tell us a little bit about your background Did you did you do any debate in school or was that like later on? Yeah, here's what's funny.

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I've never taken formal debate classes or debate training So I've never

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I'm familiar with Lincoln Douglas debate and what are called like forensics Though those kind of debates is very interesting.

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They're really focused more on technical skill They're not really focused so much like when you do debate in high school or college

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It's not so much about persuading a layperson as it is Amassing a technical amount of points in a competition that you you hit an argument.

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You didn't drop an argument So if you go online So I'd encourage our viewers who probably watch maybe you watch a

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William Lane Craig debate or one of my debates Look up high school Lincoln Douglas debate and it's so very different From when you see like the debates that have been reviewed on your channel because people will get up and they'll talk a mile a minute

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Because their goal is just let the judge know I hit all my arguments I replied to every counter argument I didn't and there have that, you know these different techniques

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So when I do debates my goal is obvious. That's not my goal my goal is to present the gospel to present the truth of the faith and My goal especially is to reach people who are on the fence because every time you do a debate

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Unless the other person just starts convulsing and vomiting and passes out There's always gonna be a group of people that says that guy won no matter how badly he does they're all he's always gonna have or she's always gonna have loyal defenders will say that they won and Same for me unless I just like convulse and start vomiting people will say that I won even if I did a kind of a crummy

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Job, there are those people in the middle that I want to that I want to reach. So my background I Yeah, it wasn't trained in forensic debating

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The only training I got I did this pro -life ministry called justice for all And I would go out to college campuses to dialogue about the issue of abortion

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We would set up these graphic image displays We would talk to students one of the activities that we did was we would have an open microphone session

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So we would have a microphone and ask people hey, who wants to talk to us about the issue of abortion and people would come up and that was my first chance of Essentially the cross -examination period of hearing an argument live

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Analyzing it for weaknesses and trying to help the other person see they have an inconsistency and so it was kind of a trial by fire and then these things would also happen with atheism and other issues when

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I was on campus, so That's really where I learned a lot of these these techniques and study

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Was one from doing that when I was on college campuses the other in my own conversion experience studying

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Other debaters people like like William Lane Craig, for example, though Trying to add my own particular

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Responses and style because I think it's great to study if you would love debate Because you might be able to watch your channel.

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I want to do debates like that's great But what my encouragement would be don't don't be

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Trent. Don't be Trent Horn. Don't be William Lane Craig Don't be Nate solid be You but you understand the rules of debate and you have your own particular style.

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That's what's really important. That's good That's actually great advice, you know Because on top of everything else that goes into debates and in a second

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I was gonna ask you a little bit about your prep and and what that looked like but you know you you do need to work to your strengths and You know one of the other aspects of being a good debater is developing, you know, what's called your ethos pathos logos and Having that connection with your judge slash audience because in informal debates is the audience is the judge, you know

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So yeah playing up on what's what you're good at and if you're a little bit more on the humorous side like I am

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You know using that to your advantage. That's really good Yeah, I think that's important because as I've done debates and what you brought that up about logos ethos and pathos or basically

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Logic emotion and authority, you know to understand. Why should I believe what you're saying that when you do a debate?

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whoever you are understand who you are play to your strengths and Understand your weaknesses.

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So for example, I would say that when people do debates There's this just popped in my head.

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Let's see if it makes sense to you. There's kind of an inverse relationship between Likeability and Aggressiveness so you can have some debaters.

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They're very likeable but They may and I think I might tend towards this more than other people

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I mean, I'll toot my own horn start with the pun there, you know There's some people that are very they're they're like bulldogs

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So we might this might come up with talk about other people that I've engaged and so they come with a very aggressive Assertive style and that can have an advantage in that you can demonstrate a weakness in your opponent very quickly and clearly but in having that aggressive assertive style a

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Weakness that comes off with that is that you may appear unlikable to people who are kind of on the fence now to flip that if you're a very likable individual who

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Wants to like strive to get along with others and it doesn't have as much of that aggressive tendency

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Then you may appeal to likeability But people might also think your argument comes off weaker if you're engaging a more aggressive person

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So and you could probably say this and maybe you should explore this for another episode people's personality traits when they go into debates

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They will have these kind of strengths and weaknesses It's kind of like also you might say with like common -sense thinking versus very philosophical

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Very philosophical might help you dissect arguments people might have a hard time Though understanding you but if you speak in a common -sense way people might rally behind you

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But then more learned people will be like this guy didn't damage the other guy's case at all

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He didn't really say anything play to your strengths and be aware of your weaknesses and always work to grow with them

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So I I mean this is good. This is gonna be a kind of a loose, you know, we're gonna float around I'm tracking the discussion here because I I think one of the things that I really do appreciate about you

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Especially now cuz back when I was in the classroom, this was not really a reality You know,

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I was in a north side of by the way Do you mind if I ask are you so I'm in Las Vegas.

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Are you nearby or are you where are you at? Well, I oh so I was I work to Catholic answers for a while in San Diego, California But about a year ago my family and I we relocated to the

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Dallas Fort Worth area I had been to Vegas a few times though Well, we plan to move out of San Diego I hate the cold like I lived in Kansas for two years and I'm just not a snow person

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So it was really when we look to places to go we thought about going back home to Phoenix where I lived for a while Vegas was possibly an option

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Florida then we settled on Dallas Fort Worth because you know, it's still a nice Somewhere in the Sun Belt is where I had to go, but I've been to Vegas a few times

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I it's got some good stuff there, you know, well, you shouldn't move to Vegas I get the sense

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We would have gotten along famously But but you know just being it so Vegas is kind of spread out and in the north town.

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It's it's not really great It's lower socioeconomic status and all of that. So I was at a school there

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With limited resources for debate. And so what I'm getting at is now I'm I'm sort of looking at Debates online where the camera is like right in your eye, you know

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And so this really does come back to what you just said and what I like about you is that you you have

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Your non -verbals are really controlled You you have an earnestness to you You're not making a lot of you got poker face

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But in a good way and so you come across as earnest not really like a bulldog

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Like you said earlier and that really does go a long way to benefit you Yes, I think that's helpful another comparison you could offer because I think the most debates people watch in general

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So, you know, let's say there's Christian atheist debates But among the general public the only debates people ever really see are probably the presidential debates if you can call them debates even

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You know, right so it depends but I remember many years ago

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Actually in a lot of them people because in a lot of the presidential debates They will show and sometimes this happens in Christian apologetic debates depending on the channel

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You're on when one person's talking they'll leave up your camera and people see what you're doing

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And so if you do these debates you should you must always ask act like the camera is on you Even if you're not not sure

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So I remember in the the debates with Al Gore and George W Bush back in the year 2000

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One area where Gore stumbled a bit was that he came off Very condescending

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George Bush would say something and you could see him in the back going Yeah, just like this this kind of stuff and and it comes off you're right if you don't have that control over yourself

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It can come off, you know that condescending or even like a kind of you're a lack of control now

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It's okay to have some responses in my debate with Alex O 'Connor One of my responses

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I couldn't hold him when he was talking Turned into a little meme with people because I gave a thought experiment about morality and I said, you know

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What what about in this case? Could you murder an innocent person to save your life and Alex said?

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Yeah I think you could murder and cannibalize them and I was getting a drink of my water when he said that and I and I and I go

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Someone turned it into a meme and people noticed that like I had this dead man like wasn't expecting that.

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Yeah So, I mean so you you having it's all about having that control so Poker face in general neutral face if your opponent says something like it's just ridiculous and Attacks you it's instead of doing something like this like what an idiot you should just smile and shake your head no like My goodness, right or just a smile and laugh like Okay, like and I've seen

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William Lane Craig do that in some debates where someone says something ridiculous and he's just like Yeah, you know to show that you've heard the objection you recognize it's absurd, but you're not getting worked up over it

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Yeah, that's right the worst thing you could do is go is have surprise face like I wasn't ready for that what's happening

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You know, I'm losing it Then that's bad. Yeah, but yeah, I know you have to you have to push that feeling deep down inside if you are feeling that In that case maybe you could offer a quizzical look

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But and I have been in situations like that before my opponent just says something Totally out of left field like where is this going and then just proceed to writing notes or pensively thinking but yeah

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It's you when you will debate in general to do it. Well, you have to have control over your your

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Nonverbals and control of your thought and of course control over your speech and planning what you choose to say in response

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That's right. That's right so, I mean in light of that the next question that I had for you was

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About your prep time or your prep in general like what do you do to prepare for a debate?

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well, usually what I do is once we've agreed upon a Resolution I start in a variety of ways

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Usually first I build up my opening statement and what's hard is and I always do this

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I'll have my opening statement done Let's say a few weeks beforehand But I still end up tinkering with it the night before because I'm like, oh this isn't working as well

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Though I'll work on my opening statement I read the opening statement aloud and I offer myself about 30 seconds of cushion

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To make sure I'm not up against the wire to finish So I will read it and I'll read it aloud multiple times to make sure it sounds correct

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It's easy to follow easy to understand. I'm familiar with it so I will put that forward to be you know, be very prepared and I will go through the opening statement and I'll make sure to cut the fat

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I want to stick with the arguments and the goal here is arguments and evidences Every now and then especially if my opponent is famous for a particular argument

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Sometimes in the opening statement, I will put a preemptive strike You know, you know, you shouldn't try to anticipate every objection and log that into your opening statement

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It's better to put forward your evidence for your case But every now and then if I know my opponent will phrase things in a certain way or make things confusing for people

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I will offer and this is especially the case if I am the affirmative and I go first I'll offer a preemptive strike to say my opponent often puts things this way

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But remember a B and C and that gives the audience Another way of looking at his opening statement that way they say oh,

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I see what he's doing here that way They're they're analyzing his opening statement with my preferred lens

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So what's interesting is when you do debates I had somebody was talking with me They were saying

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I want to do a debate with you, but could I? Open and then speak last and I said absolutely not

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Absolutely not Because there's a there's a trade -off there when you were the when you speak first you get the advantage of setting that framework

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You know setting a lens for people to view than the negatives opening statement So so you do have an advantage there

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But you also have a disadvantage that the affirmative carries the burden of proof The negative can just fold his arms and and what we'll get up when we talked about a particular debater who should soon just say

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I'm not convinced You shouldn't be convinced. It's not good enough. The negative just has to cast doubt

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So traditionally it's easier to be the negative but the affirmative can also put so much out there the negative

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Can't really shoot it all down. The negative has an advantage though in that he gets to speak last

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So he gets to have the last closing statement. Now. You shouldn't cheat. I Won't tell you one thing they in many of my debates

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The thing is most frustrating is nearly everyone I debated has cheated at one point in the debate

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Okay, so I'll get the most common examples is when we do Q &A The question and answer with the audience usually it's two minutes for one person to answer one minute for the other person to respond

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Okay, and I cannot tell you how many times I've been in a debate where I you know That guy gave their two minutes and I gave my one -minute counter reply and then he pipes up and says something else

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Which is against the rules. Yeah, you you had you had your turn We need to keep it even or in the closing statement when my opponent will present a new argument

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Now this happened to me in my debate on the deuterocanonical books of Scripture the apocryphal is Protestants Call him the apocrypha the

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Old Testament canon that my opponent He threw a new argument in his closing statement, and I said,

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I'm not gonna that's false I'm not gonna respond at length because he shouldn't do that, right? That's against the rules

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So what I do at the debate, you know, so I craft the opening statement real well trim it up Then what

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I do after that is I try to understand my opponent as much as I can Like you really

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I want to know him or her better than they know themselves So I'll watch their debates

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I will read their books and so in doing that and researching the topic and understanding where they come from Then I will craft

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Rebuttals and they will be usually I'll keep them as notes. Sometimes I'll keep them in a word document

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And I'll be able on the fly when I'm talking the person I might jot down what they say in opening and then

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I'll slot it into Into a rebuttal sometimes I have a rebuttal pre -written because I've got a pretty

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I'm gonna take a good gamble a sense of what they're Gonna do right and the key would debate for preparation Well, the key would doing a good debate is preparation preparation preparation if you do it off the top of your head

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You're just not gonna do as well. You just won't the more you're prepared the better it's going to go.

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So with the rebuttals I Will take advantage of this and I think then we might this might come up more when we talk about my debate with James White So like when my debate with James White I had not just prepared rebuttals.

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I had prepared rebuttal slides Available that I that I dropped in and so I noticed this actually

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That when I went up with my computer even the second rebuttal to offer my replies

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He kind of threw up his hands seeing that I had you know that I had this and was ready to walk people through what?

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He had what he had said So that is so that's what I'll do next is I will really immerse myself in the other person so much

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So I'm kind of sick of them by the time the debate gets here If they have a paper and debate trail and so what's hard is this is another paired benefit

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Disadvantage, so I've debated some people like James White or Dan Barker who are very

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Practiced they've done debates since like before I was born So like so they have a style they've done it a bunch.

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So so it comes second nature to them so that's an advantage a Disadvantage though and this is something

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I Tried to play on in my two debates with Dan Barker was that when people do things over and over again?

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They fall into patterns And so they become they become predictable and you're able to anticipate what they're going to do and have a ready and have kind of A ready reply for that.

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So yeah, so I basically just do that I also, you know spend time and in prayer and try to just be you know

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Focus on what I am attempting to do in this situation and then yeah, just try to be prepared have some prepared cross -examination

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Questions that I think will be most fruitful And then it's funny like the day of and like the day of the debate

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I can't get anything done at work because I'm too focused like oh I Can today's shot and I just want the debate to be over already and then you get up and you you do it

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But that's mostly how I try to build up my case and then just try to be aware of Standard rebuttals and then the things that are unique to what my opponent might bring.

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Yeah, I mean, it's great because not having had More formal training like in school and stuff like that.

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You're explaining everything that we would go through in the classroom, you know, like laying a framework

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Flowing, you know with the flowing is like taking notes during a debate when your opponent is saying something you're jotting it down, you know right and research research is key like if you can anticipate because I mean the thing with me and my students was we would always do drills a lot of practice debates and It was always understood that whenever you're given a topic in a debate

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You got to write argument briefs from both sides and then you won't know going in We'll flip a coin and then you know how you're gonna debate right, but that's anticipation.

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That's everything you're saying Yeah, that's right. And so the key is to know your other opponents side and his arguments

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Extremely well so that you can counter them and then be prepared on your end to focus on what you're debating

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So a key and I've done well and not as well in certain areas when I haven't focused on this like if you're defending a resolution

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Focus on the resolution Don't let your opponent trick you into going into a side trail on things

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Where he might be ready to clobber you if it's not a crucial part of your resolution. You can say well that is a very

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Interesting topic, but it's not it's not related to what we're talking about today.

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So if you're a Christian and you're debating The existence of God or even you know

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Whether did Jesus rise from the dead your atheist opponent might say so my opponent believes in the Bible but you know, the

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Bible says that that Christians can burn people at the stake or That the

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Israelites can slaughter men women and children. It's a trap, you know to quote Admiral Ackbar for return of the

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Jedi Because then if you're sucked into debate because he's even if you feel confident

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He purposely brought that up because he knows it's easier for him to hit you on those points and it detracts from the case

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You're trying to present so you have to be careful to not be sucked into those side venues

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Oh, but yeah, it's all about preparation I'll give you an example that when I debated Dan Barker a former pastor turned atheist author of the book godless

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We debated once I was like, it was like my first public public debate still pretty green then we debated a second time at the

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University of Minnesota and And I was and Parker did what I thought he would that I studied his previous debates and he hit point -for -point

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Same thing now. He had overwhelmed previous Christian opponents that we were debating does the Christian God exist?

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So what Barker do is he just threw up? He did something and this is helpful for people to know in Debate parlance.

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This is originally called the GISH gala So Dwayne Gish was a young earth creationist and when he would debate people on evolution

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He would just have like 20 arguments against evolution and you know run through them quickly

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And it's hard to go back through all of them and you say well you didn't get all of them So I win so Parker kind of did so Barker kind of did that with Bible difficulties and contradictions

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This whole case was does the Christian God exist? No, here's all of this stuff in the Bible.

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That is difficult. It doesn't make sense so I Practiced very hard and crafted first my opening statement

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Pre I was a preemptive strike against that approach saying it's not relevant. And actually

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I remember that debate I ended right on the buzzer right at 15 and then in the rebuttal my rebuttal was trimmed as well that that entire rebuttal was

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Pre -written I knew exactly what he was going to do And so because of that I was able to neutralize and all the problem with the

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GISH gallop is yeah, it's good Except if your opponent catches everything and throws it back now

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You're you're under the same weight to reply and you've gotten yourself into trouble. So so there the preparation really paid off Oh, that's good.

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That's good. He couldn't come back with anything No, he was not able to catch up after that He could have if I was unable to reply to his arguments, but I was able to apply

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I think to almost every substantive objection He just was because he was just here's a Bible verse boy, doesn't that sound bad?

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Here's the next one Here's Bible verse. Oh boy, doesn't that sound bad? So because he doesn't elaborate on them I can say actually this makes sense for X and not even be that lengthy in my reply

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But then just hit hit it point by point and then and then throw that back to him so one of the things that I so I'm curious to get your thoughts on this one of the things that I would teach my students there was a kind of a

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Cliche saying floating around at the time and the more I thought about it. I was like my goodness.

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I really do think this is true Because we talk about frameworks and framework is really just narrating the way

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I define it is narrating the debate Narrating the discussion to your audience so that they can better understand what's going on, especially like a really technical

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Topics and discussions narrating it to them so that they have a way to think through the debate

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But you're also you're kind of you're bringing them over to your side because you're narrating it in a way

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That's advantageous to your position. And so my point of view. Yeah, that's exactly and which is what you've done, right?

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and you're gonna see you're gonna hear from my opponent in a minute and he's gonna say X Y & Z and here's why that's Wrong or wrong headed but the one so here's the cliche statement.

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I'm curious to get your thought The one who lays a better framework more often than not wins

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Regardless of any other thing, you know, like whether the arguments are more valid than the other none of that It's the one who lays a better framework.

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What do you think about that in your experience? No, I think that's correct that when people walk away from the debate.

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They want a story in their head about what happened You know, they hear arguments back and forth and it's very difficult to keep up with all of the arguments

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But I think it's important and one person is very good at this is William Lane Craig that when he does a debate He'll say

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I presented five arguments. My opponent didn't reply to three of them and two of them Here's what was wrong with his objection.

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I've given evidence to show it's reasonable believe in God My opponent never showed there were good reasons either not believe and no reasons

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My arguments don't work and you know, so just walking people through so I'll do this And you're right my debates where I have failed to do this

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They don't go as well as debates where I'm very disciplined and focused to say here is what I am presenting

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Especially if I am the negative to hammer home my opponent needed to prove X Did he prove

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X? No because of X because of a B and C and then when I have the affirmative to say my

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My argument is that we should believe X. This is true I gave all of these reasons but my opponent ignored these reasons and didn't really show who wrong with these reasons and to and also to give a framework of What's very helpful is if you can say?

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And I think this came up in my in my debate with Jay Dyer on natural theology to say look my opponent

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He is either going to in saying Christians should not practice natural theology he's either doing natural theology in reverse because he's a presuppositional list or He's fallaciously begging the question

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It has to be one of the two and so when you say my opponent is doing one of these two unacceptable things

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So that you can see what what we're each doing or in my debate with James White He got a little perturbed

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I think when I said my opponent is reading his theology into the Bible and I want to believe the

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Bible should speak for itself And then I he got up and he told everyone this is a

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Catholic who tells you this people Who believes the assumption of Mary and I see he was really urged by that.

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Yeah in my debate with him. I was actually very Particular in my opening statement

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To not cites I did not make this a Catholic Protestant debate because the topic that we were debating eternal security is something

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Protestants disagree about and have different views. So that's why I made it very clear. I'm gonna cite the

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Bible and Roger Olson or Martin Luther or Robert Gagnon or other

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Protestant scholars that I'm talking about just a historic Christian position and I Felt that why in bringing that up,

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I don't mean I don't know people can take it as they will one might interpret that move as Poisoning the well as letting people know like hey, look where this gentleman's arguing from it'll take you down a road

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You may not want to go, you know, so I mean But that's what I tried to do is have a framework say here's how

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James White will argue But here's problem a and problem B and I think that's important You're I think you're absolutely right that you need to have a framework and more importantly people like what's a framework?

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I don't get it. You need to tell the more persuasive story about what happened in the debate Yeah, basically, that's right.

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That's right you so I was gonna bring this up I'm glad that you did because I was

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I would I was very happy to see that That's what you did and and and and unhappy to see, you know, so here's the thing in the videos

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I can't do full debates. It would be like a four -hour. Nobody's gonna watch this. Mr. Potato Head talk about anything for four hours

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So like I have to zoom in on something that's a little bit more spicy, which is cross -exam, but going back to your opening statements

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When James White made it he didn't make the whole thing about it, but he did bring up Protestantism versus Roman Catholicism and I go no, that's not what the topic is about So for you to come back and say this isn't that and then a lot of your evidence was was yeah

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Protestants against James what I was like that is so that was so brilliant, you know good for you And that's and that's very helpful when you do debates when you pick your sources

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Try to select neutral or opposing sources as much as possible. So let's say you're debating an atheist

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What's more persuasive is not you quote? JP Moreland or William Lane Craig as to why this atheist argument is bad quote

29:44

Graham oppie jail Mackey or Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens You find a well -known atheist who can say the particular argument your atheist opponent is offering is not good because then it's like Oh, wow, even people on that side

29:58

Recognize the problem here and that really means a lot for people who are on the other side watching Oh, wow,

30:04

I didn't know that Christopher Hitchens or Graham oppie or someone thought that this is just not a really good argument And so that's why when

30:10

I when I was engaging white I was very focused to not turn it into a Catholic Protestant debate and also

30:17

I mean I was actually debating in front of 1200 Calvinists at the g3 conference to not get up there and be the snarky

30:25

Catholic taking shots at Protestants, I why would love for them to Look into the truth of the

30:31

Catholic faith Another time probably but to be present and be that ambassador and much the same way to make an analogy if you're gonna be a

30:38

Christian Debater don't get up there taking your little pot shots at atheism because you want to win these people over to Christ, you know

30:44

Be that's right. Don't let yourself like getting Snarky and taking jabs at people.

30:50

You don't want to do that. It's fine to offer a little Backhanded compliment or something if your opponent is being belligerent or is being a little bit over -the -top

30:59

But always keep in mind your audience comes first. That's good. That's so good And actually it's something that touches on where I'm going in a minute.

31:07

But so here We're sort of been tippy -toeing around this for a little while one of the most requested videos that people ask because every week people will vote and tell me hey, we want you to do this one and I missed all of these debates when

31:21

I was in the classroom So I'm coming to these fresh a lot of these sure. But um, one of the most requested was you versus Matt Dillahunty on Whether the resurrection is reasonable

31:32

You did a really great job. There was a moment So my read on Matt Dillahunty is that he he is somebody who plays different roles

31:43

In the debate when it suits him best Like so for example, like when you pin him up against the wall

31:50

Intellectually speaking as a debater. He'll shift and he'll put on the audience member hat and all of a sudden he says well

31:56

You haven't convinced me. It's like well No, that's not his job to sit here and be like that like he's supposed to argue back, right?

32:03

So like what what is your take on Matt Dillahunty as a debater? Yeah, I think that Matt Dillahunty what's interesting?

32:13

He reminds me of like how some pastors who were Have a good use of rhetoric when they use apologetics in Christian debates that they don't focus so much on arguments

32:26

They've got clever quips and turns of phrases To go after their opponent.

32:31

So I think when it comes to being a debater Now what was interesting in my exchange with Matt Dillahunty?

32:37

You might notice at the beginning of that Matt Fratton the moderator and I and Matt were Kind of talking back and forth because I actually

32:44

I thought we were going to be doing that with formal Rounds and rebuttals not an extended dialogue period so the format changed on me.

32:52

It didn't change on me I just I overlooked that in the emails and Because of my previous debate on Matt Frad's channel had been a different format

33:00

I assumed it would just be the same format as the previous debate. I've done there There's another rule for your would -be debaters read the fine print

33:05

You don't want to show up It's a completely different format because doing 45 minute dialogue is way different than having rebuttal rounds

33:12

You have to prepare very differently. So right, but I still engaged him and I think what

33:17

Matt does It's it's interesting in his different formats that I feel like sometimes he feels comfortable calling out weaknesses and other people's arguments

33:26

But if he feels a bit overwhelmed by things he'll either do what others have called the

33:31

Dillahunty dodge Which is I'm just not convinced and that's what I did when he said I said, you know

33:36

Is it reasonable to believe that Jesus existed and he said well, I'm not convinced

33:42

I'm sure and I interrupted and said Matt. I'm not asking about you. I'm asking in general about people in general

33:48

This is not about you And that's important because some people when they debate him Matt does well if he treats the debate as the debate was

33:54

Can Matt Dillahunty be convinced God exists? I wasn't convinced. So I win. That's right. That's it. That's a great topic

34:00

I wish I could have a topic is Trenhorn convinced of atheism. No, I won, you know so I think that when it's structural and people have an opportunity to point out the

34:10

Problematic elements and they also have to be careful because as I said earlier Matt In some cases not it's just in the cases when he does this

34:18

He becomes kind of a bulldog that he becomes and in cross -examination It's it's okay to interrupt people, but it's not a license just to be a total like steamroller to other people and that's why

34:29

When that happens to you to not be flustered and that's why I kind of made light of it in the discussion to say

34:35

You know, are you just gonna pontificate Matt? Are you gonna let me give an answer? How am I supposed to answer your question if you won't let me answer?

34:43

Just to let him know like, you know, you're you're doing this because you just don't want people to hear what I have to say

34:49

So so yeah, so I think that it was helpful and I think especially for people on the fence you go through the comments

34:55

It's interesting with Matt like whenever he goes and does debates There's like a hundred thousand Matt Della Hunty fans that follow him because he'll go to an he'll go to an obscure channel and do a debate and that channel will be like 2 ,000 views 2 ,000 views 180 ,000 views

35:08

So I'm like, oh Matt brings a sizable audience with him to watch these things and they'll watch him like I tried got destroyed

35:15

It's a nap, but I'm interested in the people on the fence When they read through things say like I don't think

35:21

Matt really understands history very well He doesn't he doesn't understand like how History works and you know thing things like that So and that was similar my debate with Alex O 'Connor seeing people saying like I didn't think that was his best one

35:35

And I'm an atheist. So that's that's what I look for. Yeah. No, that's good and for that Sort of subsection of the audience, right?

35:44

The the little things quote -unquote the little things really do matter and so going back to nonverbals

35:50

There was there was just a moment that stuck out to me where I was like dang man That is so good. And the thing is like I can't handle my nonverbals.

35:56

I have a Various backgrounds, you know, and one of them sure. I probably shouldn't mention this

36:01

It's gonna be very embarrassing but is acting a little bit for five seconds, but so but But you know, you got to be expressive in your face

36:10

And so to bring that into an environment where you have to have a poker face, I can't do that really Well, there was a moment in your debate where Matt Dillon hunty.

36:18

He said something like oh my god You know, like why are you bringing up Alex? Oh, Alex O 'Connor.

36:24

That's right. Yeah, and and this is what you did you you stopped No, no change of expression on your face and you go what's wrong and I was like that is so good man

36:33

Cuz it's it looks like Dilla hunty is the one who is being weird and he was he's getting emotional

36:38

He was and I think and that's where it gets interesting to compare because that's one of the few exchanges where even many atheists

36:44

Say that Matt did not do very well It was when Matt and Alex had an informal they're like in a hotel room having an informal conversation about ethical veganism

36:54

About whether we ought to be vegans and Matt isn't and so it was interesting in that exchange because it was in person

36:59

It was just like in a hotel room and they're just chatting and their friends are both atheist pals You would imagine and so Matt was kind of inhibited from bringing out his bulldog that he uses when he's in trouble

37:10

To try to like steamroll the other person So he was doing a lot of dodging and seemed to be in a corner couldn't really answer

37:17

Alex in the in that regard and other atheists called him out on that and so I think that he and so that's why

37:23

I was Bringing up because the in the prompt for the debate with with Matt was specific Now I thought it would be helpful more than arguing.

37:30

Did Jesus rise from the dead? I really focused on is it reasonable to believe it? And and that's it that's a very different prompt to say look and that's why

37:39

I asked Matt Something could be reasonable and you choose to not believe in it. That's what that's fine

37:45

And so that's that and what that does is as the affirmative it lowers the burden of proof for me

37:51

I don't have to prove that I don't have to prove that this happened. I just have to prove You're not a crazy person for believing in it.

37:56

It's a good first step for some people who think it is crazy And so it's baby steps for people and so that's why

38:03

I wanted to show that Matt has a big problem Matt Delaney has a big problem if he can't distinguish between Something being reasonable and something being convincing because what

38:13

Matt does I here we go. This is the insight with Matt Delaney Don't do his debates and he thinks he's proven

38:20

Christianity is not reasonable Because it's not convincing to him

38:25

But they're not the same thing and a lot of people just think that those are the same thing So I tried hard in that debate to show they're not the same

38:32

You got to give a reason to think this is unreasonable beyond just you're not convinced. No, that's that's excellent

38:38

I mean, that's exactly what I would do. So, you know good for you. Good for you One of the other most requested videos was your debate with James White on internal security now

38:49

I guess I I was very apprehensive to do that I did another

38:56

If I can characterize it this way, I did another one. I'm put it this way. I'm much more comfortable doing Christians versus atheists.

39:02

I'm not comfortable doing more, you know, we're on the same team here Oh, yeah, exactly so because I did it before and it was an election or something like that and boy

39:13

I that that The people's various Members came out and against Well, I think you had a very fair Review and closing verdict on the debate with white night, but if you had another thought go ahead well,

39:31

I just well, okay, so I you know concluded as such but I mean feel free to you know, take a time and well, yeah your

39:40

Evaluation of it. I thought was was fair to look at what that debate would have reminded me of and your evaluation of it it reminded me of The first Rocky movie when

39:52

Rocky fights Apollo Creed, okay So and I was I was very I was actually somewhat nervous going into that debate with James white

39:59

This was actually my very first Catholic Protestant debate prior to that Yeah prior to that.

40:06

I had only debated really on atheism or abortion or did Jesus exist? So this is my first invitation

40:12

To do a debate on a Catholic Protestant issue and it's with James white who his reputation precedes him as a debater

40:18

So I prepared a lot for it But I was still nervous and I feel like now reflecting on it four years later if I could go back and do things

40:26

I would certainly do things Differently in the cross -examination to focus the argument more

40:32

You know, there's always little things like that, but overall so your analysis of it So like going in and it was kind of like, you know,

40:39

Rocky is just like this boxer from you know Streets of Philadelphia, he's gonna fight Apollo Creed, you know and make it in the ring and suddenly it's like hey

40:47

Rocky has some hunches Apollo Creed was not expecting like this is not knockout You would think of someone who's the veteran versus the rookie and so they're do you know?

40:56

It's so in the movie, of course Rocky everyone thinks, you know, hey, I rocky when he beats Apollo Creed No, he does not beat Apollo Creed in rock.

41:02

It's at the end of the match It is a split decision where two of the refs technically say

41:07

Apollo Creed because it didn't end in a knockout So when and that's interesting like when you have a debate Very few debates end with a knockout

41:16

But a debate where the other person is knocked out. I actually feel kind of bad for those situations

41:22

I feel like it's almost like not fair It has someone who's so poorly prepared or just gets completely walked over that's like in boxing you can win a boxing match via knockout or via technical knockout or you know through the judges will tally up the hits the body blows the

41:43

Deflections and so like in Rocky it was a split decision So I think people might come away from my debate with James White as split decision

41:49

So people will side with you or side with others But overall I feel good because I it's pretty good that Rocky was able to do that.

41:56

I felt good like hey This is my first Catholic Protestant debate with someone who has a lot of experience in this regard and I think you have a lot of people a lot to think about on that particular position

42:07

I was defending and my other goal was just for people to have a Favorable view towards a

42:13

Catholic defending Catholic doctrine showing that we care very deeply about scripture and that I want to follow the scriptures and and Exegete them and and present them well to others.

42:25

And so even if that is just my only goal I'm happy with that coming out there But it's it's always fun though to see when you it's like being an athlete or ever you do the play -by -play

42:34

You look say oh that was a good landing I didn't stick the landing there and you always have to look and then learn and Grow and and look forward to the next one, basically

42:44

No, I I appreciate that. You're being very kind very Very even -handed with this kind of thing because I really thought about it later

42:52

And I mean for anybody wondering like these are these are my fresh reactions

42:57

I'm not you know I think somebody everybody's there's always somebody but somebody said in the comment like oh this guy must be watching these

43:04

Thousands of times. No, I'm I'm really just going in fresh like I'm gonna do the white Well as of this recording

43:10

I'm gonna do the white What Craig to be the unbelievable thing? Oh, yes.

43:16

Yes. I'm gonna do that soon this Friday And so I haven't seen it. I people are like, hey, man, did you don't tell me

43:23

I want to go in Fred I don't know, you know, but and and I really do get the sense that The rocky thing is so apropos man.

43:29

Like that is what it was. Like it was so close I really do feel like if I watched it again,

43:36

I'd say you won Like that's how close it was it was so good it felt so good to watch it was just really great

43:42

Yeah, and I think that that is that it's helpful to to see that though in general though.

43:48

I It's interesting it well If you're going to do this by the people and I'd love to see more people to debate

43:54

What's hard is I get kind of jealous of the Protestant world because like there's a lot of people

44:01

Who want to study and it seems like there's a fair number of Protestants who want to get out there?

44:07

And do debate or dialogue on at least what we would call mere Christianity the existence of God resurrection of Jesus and I get kind of like I'm trying to kick

44:16

Catholics to get their button gear to do that kind of stuff because yeah, I mean The people that I know who go out and want to do this and debate and then we'll engage others on this

44:27

I mean you've got like the philosopher types of William Lane Craig or JP Moreland or Others like Frank Turek or J Warner Wallace or even people like, you know, like like Braxton Hunter like a good or good job

44:39

You're getting out there and doing that and then I look out in the Catholic world It's like tumbleweeds like they'll sometimes they'll do debates on like Catholic Protestant stuff.

44:46

I'm like guys we got to defend like the core essence of this so yeah, but but it's

44:54

Yeah, otherwise it was it's good to see and then that's why it's always important just to try to Learn from what you're doing to grow and and to teach others to to manifest this in a gracious way

45:10

Maybe maybe it's just one of those things where you're a little bit ahead of of the curve and you'll be the model that that others see and then they'll

45:20

Before, you know what five ten years down the road will have a lot of trend horns out there You know and that's and that's what's important if you want to do this because the other temptation because I think this is helpful cuz

45:29

I'm sure there's some people watching your Channel who would love to do this stuff and if they're called to it

45:35

They should do it and there's ways to tell that You can pray and have an internal call

45:40

But one way of telling if you're called to do this is really gonna be the reviews You really have to look at them and you have to honest you got to be honest about it if you're not if because I have seen some people who go and do debates like this and I Think they do a disservice like they're not this is not their skill set and they should focus on something else

45:59

So you're not always gonna bat a thousand But I think in general if you're getting general positive reviews

46:04

Like when I they had that engaged with white I felt like it went well because I went and looked at Comments and reviews and saw a wide variety of them the most interesting reviews for me on Debates are from people who don't have a dog in the fight.

46:18

It's rare to find it, but sometimes I can So for example, like with white I looked up a Mormon apologist who you know

46:26

Probably is still closer to my view, but it's still somewhat far removed saying Yeah, I think that Trent actually, you know had this year and then seeing that white sometimes will do sometimes you can tell

46:36

How a debate went by looking and this is something you might want to comment on in a future episode A new trend is people will offer debriefs or reviews of the debates that they did

46:47

And so that's something new that I've seen and I noticed that in white's review of our debate it was not as celebratory as I had seen in like when he talks about other debates that he's done and And talks about them.

47:03

And so sometimes I can get that There's a lot more explaining about how to under when we have to say to explain how to understand a debate

47:12

It's like you may not feel it went as well as you would have hoped Although I will say when it comes to debate reviews,

47:18

I think those are fine to do I mean, well, especially like what you do is your third party, you know

47:24

Let's take a look at this if you review your own debate It's fine

47:29

Just don't don't use it I've seen some people where they like played the whole debate and gave a commentary.

47:36

I'm like dude, you're redoing the debate man Yeah, yeah, right Exactly. Yeah. No, that's really great

47:42

You know, it just gets me thinking, you know, there's just a lot more Well, I mean, here's the thing too.

47:49

I This is not where the debate teacher thing was a gimmick So, I don't know if I'm breaking people's hearts

47:55

But this is not where my heart is like the debate teacher thing was a way to get people more Aware of the ministry that I've established for years.

48:03

The ministry is more on evangelism effective evangelism techniques Discipleship and things like that so, you know like but there is a the more

48:12

I look at this there really is a a broad realm of Categories and videos that you could possibly do under this little niche that you and I are discussing right now

48:21

So and I think it's important like what you're doing because you know, I say well, how is this evangelism? He's sitting around ranking debates or things like that.

48:27

No, it is because when people say like why do you do debates? I tell them I actually don't do debates in order to end the discussion on a topic

48:35

But to start it because I always counsel people a debate is not a good way to Arrive at the truth of a subject because you could have a subject where you've got a true and a false position

48:46

But the true position is defended by someone doesn't know how to debate so they don't write it very well So it's a reflection on the performance of the debaters.

48:54

So why do so then why do we do debates then? Well, because they're entertaining they're entertaining and they get us interested in an issue like let's say you're gonna do the review of White and Craig on Calvinism Molin ism way more people are going to watch that then we'll read an article analyzing the theological significances of Calvinism and Molin ism on the question of Divine foreknowledge you a few people are gonna read an article like that But it's fun to watch two people spar on that And so what

49:24

I see is that the debates especially people on the fence whether it's Christianity or atheism Whatever it is.

49:30

You're on the fence. I want I want to figure out more of these arguments in these things So it gets people more into the subject to do that.

49:38

That's my goal is to get people more fascinated by the subject to do their own research and Investigation, but hopefully as they do it to see

49:46

Ted they have a partiality to the side I've represented because the technique that I use and the evidence

49:51

I presented right? That's great. That's great Do we have a few more minutes? I know we're running out of time here.

49:58

Yeah, actually I got I got a lot of time Don't stress this is this is

50:03

I mean, this is it's fun. It's fun to talk shop with people plus I work from home So I don't get to talk to grown -ups very much.

50:09

Oh excellent. All right. I feel like we're the same age. I'm 42 I don't want you to call yourself out there, but I feel like we're relatively the same age

50:17

So I think we're we're a part of the same. I think that I'm a Geriatric millennial and so you would be a baby

50:25

Gen Xer Basically is where we would be because I'm I'm gonna be 37 in in January So we're we're around that same time period.

50:34

Yeah, we have a lot of shared experiences. I'm sure growing up Oh, yeah late 80s early 90s.

50:39

Well, so then let me close with a couple questions about Evangelism because that's that's like I said, that's where I'm at.

50:46

What is Coming out of all the debates that you've done What is like your favorite go -to?

50:53

Argument or thing to say in regular conversations. Oh You mean my favorite thing to say just if I'm talking to people about the faith

51:02

Yeah, you're engaging regular folk not an interlocutor on stage, but just regular folks. Yeah Well, honestly, my favorite thing to say is more to ask them my favorite question to ask them

51:13

Which would be some and so this would be borrowed a lot from the Christian apologist Greg Kokel and his work tactics

51:20

To say because when you talk to people even when I'm in a debate I sometimes will pose questions for people rather than statements like like in my debate with white to say

51:30

Well, how do you know a Bible passage about the loss of salvation is?

51:36

Prescriptive rather than descriptive and then what what method do you use to objectively determine that?

51:42

Rather than saying he's wrong about passage 1 2 3 4 5 and I did do that But to say, you know,

51:47

I pose that question someone's like, oh, yeah Well, how how would I be able to determine that that when you leave someone with a question that bothers them?

51:56

It's more effective. I think even than a very solid argument. So more what I want to leave people with is How do you know

52:03

X is true? How or at least how did you come to believe that or a question? I sometimes like to ask them is that's really interesting

52:10

What do you think is the strongest argument against that view and what would you say to it?

52:15

Right, and then if they can't answer it's a nice that I talk to atheists a lot about this because it's very hard to get

52:21

Atheists like no set of premises is just gonna lead on. There's a God like right there It's always gonna be like that's just your little silly little argument.

52:29

Yeah. Okay. Well, what do you think? It's the best argument or best reason and what's wrong with it?

52:34

Or what would convince you like what kind of evidence would I find it's very important in conversations and also in debates

52:41

Leave someone with a question that Causes them to doubt a pillar of a false belief that they hold

52:49

And then that will leave room for your true belief to aid that person to come to know to know the truth

52:56

No, that's that's excellent. And and that's exactly what I would advocate for as well is

53:03

There's more of a well to to bring it over you like from using like debate language

53:09

Cross -examination is a lot more effective in in a regular guys or in a regular setting then making a

53:18

You know affirmative constructive, you know an opening statement because when it comes to so maybe you can let me know what you think about This but when it comes to people, especially those who they're talking about difficult subjects religion

53:32

Christianity, especially that's not very popular anymore To just walk up to people cold and talk about so so you're dealing with barriers defenses people are very defensive and so like you're trying to overcome those barriers you can do so much better with a

53:47

Gentle cross -examination style question than a statement, right? Absolutely. So instead of talking about a controversial point of Christian morality, you can ask okay

53:57

What do you think morality is do you think it's something that like we invented or we discovered it because like we discovered it

54:04

We can't really change it if we invented it We could change it, but it doesn't seem like we could just all decide to make it really bad or if we did

54:11

You say oh we could and I said, okay Well, if people did would you go along with it or not? I go with my personal moral code.

54:18

Okay? Well, how do you know when your personal moral code is right or wrong? You know, like have you ever done something where you felt guilty?

54:24

It sounds like you're you know, if you are the source of the code You can always just kind of change it so you don't feel bad.

54:30

And so there you go Asking so there you're not boxed in on a controversial point They're having a hard time with you're going back to basics and back to the foundational levels right and Again as you know

54:43

Christians I would say We need to do work exegeting the scriptures obviously, but I think as Christians especially today

54:51

We said we should exegete people and if we do that then we see that there's this other thing that's going on And I'm not saying it's a good thing

54:58

But we a lot of us really walk around the world thinking that we're master and commander of our own vessel

55:03

And so, you know Galileo said a long time ago. You cannot teach a man anything, you know ladies in the audience

55:09

You know I'm talking about right? You cannot teach a man anything You can only help him define it within himself. And so again asking those questions leads them there, but they think they're the ones doing it

55:19

Right, and you're just you're guiding them down that path And that's why it's important that we know as Christians that we do not have the power to convert people only the

55:27

Holy Spirit Can bring someone to faith? But what we can do is we can remove obstacles to receiving the

55:34

Holy Spirit and give people questions that that prime them So to speak to be open to that that movement of the

55:40

Spirit in their life, and that's our our role St. St. Paul says is out of the Corinthians. We are chanting for Corinthians 3.

55:47

We are God's co -workers And we you know in planting field it says we are we are his co -workers that we don't we aren't involved in moving someone to The moment of salvation, but we do prepare the path so the

55:59

Spirit can move them to that. Yeah, that's good. That's good I think we're already kind of touching on this

56:04

So because we're talking about elements of debates that can actually help us in regular Conversation a lot of us are gonna be on stage doing this kind of a thing in a formal sense

56:12

But definitely all of us can get out there and fulfill the Great Commission with the people that God has placed in our lives so What are some ways though that?

56:21

Like you can't just take a debate and drop it right down on top of a regular conversation

56:27

So like what are some ways that debates can like not help us or hinder us in regular conversations?

56:33

Sure. Well, they can hinder us if We treat interpersonal conversations like debates

56:41

That's a bad idea. So for example, like when I do debates my goal is not to Cause Dan Barker or Matt Dillahunty become

56:51

Christian or James White to become Catholic That would be an excellent bonus if that were to happen, but I'm not counting on it

56:59

Well, my goal is to reach those people sitting on the fence who are listening in and they and that they they come away and Say that guy had a lot of good information and he was confident and he didn't lash out the other guy

57:12

I'm gonna I want to see more what he has to say So that so even if I'm, you know Kind of having a little fun a little bit or you know with with my opponent or back -and -forth playfulness

57:22

It's okay because you know, I'm more playing to the people watching But the problem is those people if I talk to them

57:29

I do not treat them like a debate opponent For I really do hope that I have a reasonable chance of if they're on the fence

57:36

I'm having a conversation with them a friend a family member to help them to see what is What I believe and they come to believe it and also

57:43

I have an added benefit my debate I've got two hours That's it with this person. I have ideally a relationship so I can take it at a slow pace

57:52

Because in a debate you've got a rock you've got to run hard You've got a 15 -minute opening statement get it all in there

57:58

And if you don't get it in there tough, but in a real relationship, oh I can take baby steps with the person

58:04

I can walk them through it step by step, you know, so I'm not in a debate. I'm toe -to -toe

58:11

So you cannot take that in a conversation conversation is shoulder -to -shoulder that I'm I'm walking alongside

58:17

This individual so I do think debates can serve a role here Like when you're engaging people in conversation, you might say, you know, it was really good talking about this

58:26

Hey, by the way, you might want to watch this debate Like I might send you on my debate with Alex O 'Connor or Ben Watkins on Atheism so you might want to watch this because they might be more willing to watch a debate than like a talk on something they disagree with because at least they get to see their guy up there and you know, and then you can

58:44

You can engage One another in that regard. So I think that in our interpersonal conversations

58:50

Treating them like debates will hinder evangelism. You have to treat them as dialogue and as baby steps in conversation and that's like this

58:58

I touched on before would just be debates can hinder evangelization if You're just if you're bad at them or you're uncharitable or the worst combination you're both bad and uncharitable it's like Like I don't know which

59:14

I would I I don't know. I think I'd rather have a charitable person who's not super Intelligent than a smart person that everyone just just thinks is a total jackass.

59:26

I don't know It's um, it's a hard one that I would rather I personally would rather be someone that someone thinks that oh

59:32

I'm wrong about this rather than well, it's hard I don't know because sometimes I feel like I would want them to think

59:38

Christianity is true I would rather have them think Christianity is true and I'm a jackass Then that I'm nice and Christianity is false

59:46

Like I would rather make that sacrifice But on the other hand, I feel like being on Christlike can push people away further than just a mere absence of knowledge

59:56

Yeah, I guess here is why I feel like it's easier Like if you come across someone who is an ill -informed nice Christian It's easier to fix that with information later.

01:00:08

I met a Christian They were super nice, but yeah, they don't really know a lot and I say, oh, well, he didn't know about this

01:00:13

Oh, wow, that's really good information to know it's easier to fix a lack of information It's harder to fix a lack of charity.

01:00:21

You run into one Christian who's a jackass. That's just a fun word to say that It no matter how many other nice Christians you put out there afterwards that one still sticks with you and it's hard to shake

01:00:34

So I think that that would be yes I would prefer a person to be charitable and ill -informed

01:00:40

Because it is easier to fix the lack of information later and get them to all these great resources that are that are out there

01:00:46

But in general so you want to do debates you have to make sure you are informed and you're charitable And if you have that give it a try have

01:00:53

Nate review your debates, you know, see where you can grow See how it's how it's going and and go out.

01:00:58

You don't have to be doing, you know, there's little discord there's other small venues to do it, but just Practice being informed prepared and charitable.

01:01:06

No, that's real good. And you know, I think the Apostle Paul agrees with you, you know Because when you're saying this

01:01:12

I think of first Corinthians 13 where he's like look you can be the smartest Paraphrase you think you could be the smartest person in the room.

01:01:19

You could have all of these abilities and and Giftings, but if you do not have love you're nothing and Yeah that I think you're absolutely correct on that It does come back to relationship at the end of the day like you you

01:01:34

This is how I try to get the people around me to think about this Like what is the greatest commandment right?

01:01:40

You know, Jesus is approached in his ministry and he's challenged a little bit What's the greatest commandment and he you know? He gives the the spa right like, you know

01:01:47

Love the Lord you got with all your heart mind soul and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. It's not When debates, you know, it's not be the most effective communicator, you know

01:01:56

It's love and if it's communicated in love, it'll be received in love and they're not mutually exclusive So like I'll give you an example like some people that I've debated

01:02:05

You know, we they're there. We still have some of an adversarial Relationship afterwards engaging our work and back and forth and that's fine.

01:02:13

That's the spirit of the game when you do apologetics But there's other people that I have engaged in Formal debates or formal dialogues and I consider them charitable and I would consider them to be friends.

01:02:25

I think one example Would be I did my debate with Ben Watkins at that's probably one of the best debates that I've ever taken part in He was

01:02:34

Ben was extremely well prepared gave one of the best defenses for atheism I've seen I think that I responded very well point for point on everything

01:02:42

But Ben is a really nice guy. Like we stayed at the hotel. Yeah, I drove him to and from the venue

01:02:47

We hung out at the hotel bar afterwards and we both care a lot about truth and we can be friends and talk about even non

01:02:54

Atheist Christian stuff and have common ground and engagement because we both care about the truth and we're not out

01:03:00

Just to like just to win debates. That's the key because he and I so like at the end of that debate

01:03:07

This is hosted on Cameron Bertuzzi's capturing Christianity Channel So yeah, we did the debate does God exist very high -level debate like very sophisticated philosophical atheism

01:03:15

Went back and forth at the very end of the debate we should cancel I think we hugged actually at the end of the debate and Ben said to me we did it we did it as in both he and I had accomplished the goal of presenting the best position for each side for people to determine and so it was

01:03:36

Mutually enriching in that regard and so and I still enjoy talking with Ben In fact Ben and I we did a devil's advocate debate recently where on Abortion where I was pro -choice and Ben was pro -life

01:03:48

So we switched and so and actually ought to talk to you later about that. I have mixed feelings about devil's advocate debates

01:03:55

There I don't think I would really do them a lot in the future I took this particular one on abortion because I felt it was a consistent yet repugnant position

01:04:04

So even if I defend it, well people would be scared off by it So, right so I didn't mind necessarily defending it but there we were and so we were able to Come at truth and he did it.

01:04:17

He did a very good job Defending the pro -life you so like Ben is an example there and there's other people that I've Engaged and hope to engage in the future, but I think we could have that report

01:04:25

So we should have these relationships and even when it comes to debates you can have them with people you you formally

01:04:32

Engage if both of you are honest about seeking the truth. That's right. That's right and this is what

01:04:38

I hope I really do hope that everybody watching really listens to your answer there because I'm trying to communicate this as much as possible in like the interaction section in the comment section

01:04:49

But when you when you're going to find it as a viewer when you're going to find a debate to watch

01:04:55

You really should be looking for that filet mignon You should be looking for the best of the bet that the two guys or whatever ladies

01:05:02

They're they're operating on all thrusters on both sides. So you get the best views on both sides and I really do hope that that comes across So I also

01:05:14

I also hope we get more women out there to do debates Yeah, men have a natural predisposition to want to like bang our heads together like rams, you know

01:05:24

We just naturally disposed that way It's like only men could invent football a game where you literally just run your heads into each other

01:05:31

But I would love like one of my fate but women can bring very valuable contributions to debate

01:05:37

One of my favorite debaters is a woman named Stephanie Gray Connors so Stephanie She's done several debates.

01:05:44

She does debates primarily on abortion though She's branching out and other bioethics issues, but Stephanie brings a wonderful charm and charisma

01:05:51

I think a friend of mine said that you know She can just well he put it in a cruder way than I would have that she can just Destroy opponents by sticking in the knife with just this wonderful angelic smile

01:06:02

And of course Stephanie does not mean to she's never been cruel or uncharitable, but she can just demolish a pro -choice position but she still is very

01:06:11

Charitable and and kind when she's engaging other people, but there aren't as many women involved in debate

01:06:18

I'd like to see so I'd love to see more and I would recommend I'm sure there's women that watch your channel on my channel

01:06:23

If you feel called to give it a go we'd love to see more of that representation up there excellent

01:06:29

Yeah agreed totally agree train. I thank you so much for your time I'm really enjoying this but we're coming to a close and I want to make sure that you let everybody know

01:06:39

Like what's what's upcoming for you? You got any projects or any other debates maybe down the down the line?

01:06:45

Sure. Well, I've submitted a book. It's a dialogue book with my inner skeptic So it's a where I debate me the hardest.

01:06:52

Oh wow to a debate So I've got a book where I dialogue with my internal sense of doubt and people I think will like that Working on other writing right now.

01:07:01

I've got a few debates and public dialogues set up for 2022 that I'm going through One would be a

01:07:08

Catholic Protestant debate on Mary. So that's hopefully gonna be that's confirmed for April February March I'm hoping to do a

01:07:16

Dialogue two dialogues on the Kalam cosmological argument one with an atheist and another with a

01:07:23

Catholic Who disagrees with me about the argument soundness? So it's a little intramural and in that regard and then after that Maybe this summer

01:07:35

This is still very TBD, but I've been engaging the work of a Protestant scholar

01:07:40

Gavin Ortlund who's a very charitable Intelligent Individual is a channel called truth unites.

01:07:46

I published a response to him on purgatory And so I'm hoping maybe to do a series of dialogues with him

01:07:52

Maybe even something in person will we'll just have to see but there there are a lot of fun debates

01:07:58

One of my favorite things like what's funny is I'm kind of scaling back my public speaking schedule I don't do talks as much because I kind of feel like audio animatronic when

01:08:07

I give a talk. I'm like The same old talk But debates it's just you never know what you're gonna get.

01:08:12

So just they're a lot of fun Yeah, well, like I said, it's it's quite a treat to watch you do your thing

01:08:19

You're really good at it. And I just want to encourage you man. Just keep keep doing what you're doing and You know, we'll be we'll be watching, you know, and I appreciate it

01:08:29

Oh, and I'll let viewers know if they want to get more of my materials I would definitely recommend my podcast the

01:08:35

Council of Trent co -un SEL council Yeah, and that is that is available on iTunes

01:08:40

Google Play and on YouTube as well right, and of course The YouTube channel and Trent horn comm for more information from Trent Trent horn apologist professor author

01:08:54

And again, all of the things for Trent go to his YouTube channel and check out his website